This page: www.bacomatic.org/~dw/t200.htm
Main page: http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/index.htm
Last Updated: 16 Jul 2003
This is an excerpt from The Database From Hell(tm). 09/08/98
Sources of information are noted where known. Information from mailing
lists or newsgroups may be abbreviated or edited from the original postings.
Updates or commentary are welcome.
Send data to: [email protected]
*T200 *******************************************************************
--notes------------------------------------------------------------------
T200C, T200R, and T700R4(1984-1984 early) 27 spline
the Chevy 200R4 is the same length as the (short?) T350, but 200's trans
mount is about 7.5" further back. 20R4 says "METRIC" in 1.5" letters on
bottom T350 27-spline yoke works with it. Mount-to-trans bolts are metric
phone with TCI; they say most T200 failures are input shaft, front planetary
hub, cast iron splines
[email protected]
T200 is one piece case, no separate tailshaft housing, big "boat" pan
[unknown]
dragnet 07 Nov 1995
- Here are the lengths of GM trannies. They came out of a magazine.
case overall bellhousing to
length length trans mount
powerglide (short tail) 15 1/4 24 1/4 19 1/2
powerglide (long tail) 15 1/4 27 1/2 20 1/2
thm200 27 5/8 27 5/8 20 1/8
thm250 21 5/8 27 5/8 20 3/8
thm350 (short tail) 21 5/8 27 5/8 20 3/8
thm350 (long tail) 21 5/8 30 5/8 20 3/8
thm400 (short tail) 24 3/8 28 1/4 26 3/4
thm400 (long tail) 24 3/8 34 28
200R4 27 3/4 27 3/4 26 7/8
700R4 23 3/8 30 3/4 22 3/8
--personal observations--------------------------------------------------
--information from books-------------------------------------------------
--information from magazines---------------------------------------------
CC Dec 94
- T400 and 4L80E have the same 31-spline yoke
- T350, T200, Powerglide, and T700 all have same 27 spline yoke
CC Apr 96
- says all GM automatics, fluid out is bottom fitting, fluid in is top
CC Sep 95
- says stock T200-4R good for about 275 ft-lb
- modified versions can take 350-370 ft-lb
- rubber mount bolts are M10x1.5
- speedo cable should interchange with T350
- cable shifter bracket is GM 10026014
- convertor bolts are M10x1.5 x 15mm
--information from catalogs----------------------------------------------
Summit catalog says T200 and T350 are same length
--net lore---------------------------------------------------------------
data collected by: [email protected]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
KEN MOSHER
gnttype 21 Feb 1993
- [Can someone explain what the torque converter does. What happens when the
[torque converter is locked up and why would a lockup switch be benificial
[when racing.
- In general, a torque converter is a fluid coupling of the engine crank
output to the transmission input. It does this by using fluid under
pressure and spinning turbine blades and providing pressure against the
stator ... I know it's not very clear, but it's hard to describe the thing
in less than a couple hundred words. Suffice it to say that it is a "fluid
clutch".
- Our converters have a band or "clutch" that "locks up" when the ECM decides
the conditions warrant (> 45 mph and light load). This band is forced
against the inside converter housing to effectively "lock" the center
sections together so there is absolutely no slippage ... therefore no power
lost to heating the fluid via friction. This is intended to boost
mileage.... however, those of use who race use this same feature to prevent
slippage at high rpms and high speeds. Locking up the converter is almost
like having the advantages of a manual transmission, since it cuts the
heat/slippage when the car is under a high load at the big end of the track.
It gives about a tenth and a mph .... pretty cheap upgrade for about the
cost of a $5 switch.
- The downside of this (as I'm currently finding out) is that after a couple
hundred runs or so the clutch is basically shot. It was never designed for
350-400 hp to be slammed thru it at high rpm under heavy load ... amazing
that it holds up as well as it does! I'm currently replacing my torque
converter with another stock one (didn't want a monster converter and have
had a tough time finding anything streetable and reliable with lockup from
the aftermarket guys). It cost me $135 from GM ... so not too bad.
Mellum Ron
gnttype 3 Mar 1993
- >When the car is warm and driving in OD, it will not release when the
>car is braked to a stop.
- The power for the TCC goes through the brake switch. Make sure that when you
apply the brakes that the connection to the TCC is broken. If I remember
right the ECM provides a ground to the TCC when conditions are right. When
you apply the brakes, it breaks that ground connection. This point should
also come out through the ALDL connector. With a voltmeter you should be
able to test whether or not the connection is being made/broken. You should
measure 12 VDC at the ALDL until the ECM locks it up then it should go to 0.
- >Is the TCC solenoid a mechanical, electrical, or hydraulic item? I
- It's a solenoid that controls hydraulic flow.
KEN MOSHER
gnttype 3 Mar 1993
- [Any ideas? I am not sure what it would take to replace the TCC solenoid,
[or if I am even chasing the right solution.
- If I remember right , the '83 Riv has the TH200-4R coupled to a front
differential.... this was before they put the TH125 in all the front drive
cars. Could be I'm hallucinating, though
- The TCC switch is inside the case and is up next to the valve body (I think)
... a good place to check is the service manuals in the local library. If
you look in a National Service Data for '83-'84 you should find a trouble
shooting logic tree (and I seem to remember seeing the symptoms you describe
in one of them ... I was looking for something else for my '84 Century
wagon) and complete service and test procedures. This sounds like it could
be a pretty simple fix.
- [Is the TCC solenoid a mechanical, electrical, or hydraulic item? I
[serviced the tranny hoping it was just old fluid, but it didn't help.
- Technically, it's electrical, although it controls a valve in the
transmission that allows the fluid to drain out of the converter and to
cause the lockup clutch (band) to engage.
Mellum Ron
gnttype 4 Mar 1993
- >So, does this hurt anything?
- Gas mileage will suffer. There will also be more heat built up due to the
slippage. Instead of just unplugging it, figure out which wire is used for
the TCC and either put a switch on it or cut it and cover the ends. The
other wires in the connector may be used by the ECM. I know that on the
GN's, it's a four wire connector, one is TCC lockup, one is 3rd gear switch,
one is 4th gear switch, and I think the other is ground (?).
- >Would the fluid coupling create more heat that could eventually cause the
>tranny to fail?
- I don't think you will build up that much heat. A lot of other trans don't
use lock-up converters.
mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
hotrod 20 Mar 93
- >TH700-R4 is actually longer than TH350; TH200-4R is same length, though I
>don't know about crossmember mounts.
- The 200-4R has the same bellhousing to rear mount distance as a TH-400.
- >My understanding is that the latter isn't very strong, and I've not seen
>any aftermarket-beefed versions as I have for TH350, TH400, and TH700-R4.
- True. If you look at the pan, you'll eventually realize that it's just a a
TH200-series unit with a OD grafted on. Althouh, I know of 2 that are
holding up under some Buick GN's, and I've heard of more than a few that are
going strong.
- For us non-chevy guys, the 200-4R is a easier swap, since it comes in all
three GM bellhousing variations; Chevy only, B/O/P/Cad, and Dual-Pattern.
(In otherwords, it bolts to any RWD GM motor...)
- I'm planning on adding a built 200-4R to my 71 Cutlass this summer. Gotta
have OD, and I can't get my hands on a 6 speed vette tranny. (How would I
hook it to a Olds motor anyway?!?!?!)
gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
hotrod 21 Mar 93
- > know about crossmember mounts. My understanding is that the latter isn't
> very strong, and I've not seen any aftermarket-beefed versions as I have
> for TH350, TH400, and TH700-R4.
- Look at some of the turbo buicks... I believe quite a few of them are using
beefed up 200R4's.
"KEN MOSHER"
hotrod 22 Mar 93
- Well, here's my experience with the 200-4R in my Buick GN. The car is a low
twelve (hopefully high 11 sec. car this year) that is completely streetable.
It has shown 365 hp at the rear wheels on the chassis dyno (but the tires
were slipping, so I estimate maybe 375+ hp).
- The car has in excess of 300 runs on it (closer to 400) and 35000 miles of
street driving. The tranny was recently sent to a local rebuilder (a
moonlighting GM technician) to be freshened up, since I noticed some
slippage at the track on the top end. The MPH had fallen off about 2 mph
and the E.T. had risen about .2 seconds.
- The tranny felt fine on the street, but this is what we found. My tranny
guy showed me the post mortem ... we looked at the following:
- 1. The drum ... he sanded it and it looks ok, but I had him put in a new
one anyway. This is a steel unit, so it can't be turned on a lathe, so I
was concerned about roundness. He said it was badly discolored before he
sanded it ... it indicated hot spots from a slipping 1-2 band.
2. 1-2 band was pretty shot ... lots of wear and scoring. Evidence it was
burned. Replaced it with a heavy duty unit that came in the Raybestos
rebuild kit.
3. Input shaft splines were the shocker. The splines were about half worn
away. There was galled metal between the splines ... indicates some
pretty hefty torque was pounding on the shaft. We replaced it with a
hardened shaft.
4. Original 7 vane pump looked brand new ... casing was in excellent shape.
Replaced it with the 10 vane pump for added volume and pressure
stability.
5. 2-3 clutches and steels showed evidence of hot spots and slippage. Not
terrible, but the new steels and clutches were installed. The new
clutches are semimetallic and should provide more "grip" than the stock
ones. Added extra clutches to firm up this shift a little.
6. 3-4 clutches (only 2 of these!) looked pretty good. Kind of surprising,
given that for about 3 years the car was allowed to shift into 4th @ 105
mph in the 1/4. I would have thought they might really show wear, given
the load ... but they looked pretty good!
7. Examined the converter splines and they also showed a little nicking to
match in the input shaft splines ... not bad, but basically makes the old
converter worthless since a new one from GM is only $135. I'm putting a
new one in and sending the old one back as a core.
- Overall, my guy said he liked the condition of the tranny, given the fact
that 400 runs were made on it. Nothing was fried or showed excessive heat
damage. Everything was very clean and tight and all he had to do is put in
the performance parts. He said that's the time to get a tranny gone
through, not after it's starting to show real problems... he was impressed
that I hadn't noticed anything on the street, but only at the track under
higher boost levels. Very impressed with the way the tranny has held up ...
he attributed part of the longevity to the fact that a good tranny oil
cooler (I use the B & M super cooler) in series with the in-radiator tranny
oil cooler has been used since the car was a year old.
- Anyway, so first hand experience with the 200-4R found behind the Turbo
Regals ... seem to be pretty reliable units.
KEN MOSHER
gnttype 11 May 1993
- The ATR kit comes with a full set of steels and clutches, a very good
quality band, all the gaskets, all the O rings, filters, etc. My tranny guy
said it was a good quality kit and very complete. Most of the stuff came
from Raybestos ....
- While you are in there I recommend you have a hardened input shaft
installed, have the 10 vane pump installed and to have a shift kit installed.
I have a B & M shift kit that was only about $50 and it works great.
[email protected] (Steven J Orlin)
rec.autos.tech 10 Oct 1993
- Well, first of all, there are two types of TH200 metric trannys.
A TH200C (lockup converter) and a TH200 (non lockup)
- I am assuming that you have a lockup, considering the year of your car.
- I would strongly recommend replacing the TH200C with a TH350C or TH250C (if
you really had to..)
- The TH200 was built as a cheap alternative to the other transmissions being
produced at the time. It is lighter (not much) , and most of the internals
are pressed out of plastic and aluminum wherever possible to save bucks
for GM. It is also less durable, and much harder to rebuild to be
as durable as a TH250 or TH350.
- What you will need, unless you want to say goodbye to your computer, is a
lockup TH350C or TH250C, a length of steel vacuum line for the modulator;
(TH200's use a cable to sense throttle position), a TH350/250 detent cable;
(if you look hard enough, you may be able to find an adapter for your TH200
cable to work on the TH350. The mounting on the transmission is sized
different. It would probably be much easier to just look for a used TH350
detent in a junk yard), some rubber vacuum line, and a connector to tap into
your manifold vacuum, a TH350/250 dipstick tube ---you can reuse your TH200
dipstick, a TH350 type converter, AND a TH350 converter inspection cover.
- With all these things, it shouldn't take more than a few hours to get
everything hooked up. Some places make a kit to do the job, but all you
really need is the above. You may also want to replace the mount while you
have it out.
- The speedometer will hook right up, and the TCC should... (not very sure
about that--- you may need to splice in another connector..) But the
computer won't know the difference, one solenoid is just as good as
another:-)
- But anyways, in the early 80's, the TH250/350C's and the TH200C's were
used pretty much interchangeably. It was called a manufacturing option,
which basically meant, you have no clue which one you will get....
KEN MOSHER
gnttype 04 Feb 1994
- [...Ken Mosher had his rebuilt, but as I recall it wasn't really in that bad
[a shape, and (be honest, Ken) Ken flogs his GN pretty hard
- Yeah, I'm pretty hard on it. You have to call 1.5 sixty foot times a little
brutal,huh? <*Grin*>
- Anyway, my tranny had ~35K miles on it ... and about 5 years of drag racing
on it too. I was religious about changing fluid at 4000-6000 mile intervals
(and it became every Spring, regardless of mileage). I decided to freshen
it based on the horror stories. Largely unfounded from my experience.
- The most evident casualty of the abuse was the input shaft. It wasn't
really bad, but it did have visible galling of the splines. The band was
worn and there was some evidence of heat on the drum, but there were lots of
miles left on it. The steels and clutches looked very good.
- Being the type that doesn't car to yank the tranny every year, I decided to
do an upgrade while we had it apart. My tranny guy was a moonlighting GM
tranny service guy who specialized in the 200/700s ... he said that
resurfacing the drum would work fine, but I was paranoid about roundness so
I bought a new one from GM. I had a hardened input shaft installed, new
steels and clutches, a new band and the 10 vane pump.
- The steels, clutches, gaskets, springs, band, etc. all came in a nice kit
from ATR that used Raybestos parts. The tranny guy said it was a very high
quality kit.
- Cost was about $450 for the whole thing:
$80 for labor
$120 for kit
$100 drum
$80 10 vane pump
$70 input shaft
- Most of the cost was the upgrade parts. The tranny guy said that the GN
200-4R had a very different valve body than the 200Cs and had a what looked
like a heavier casing.
- I do know that the tranny tag for the turbo cars is unique .. should have a
BR code on the tag.
Bob Valentine
gnttype 02 Mar 1994
- > I asked much the same question a few weeks ago. The T200s do indeed
>hold up well behind the GNs, but in other cars they seem to be marginal
>even behind 305 Chevy and 307 Olds powerplants.
- While I don't know much about them, I do know:
1. They are essentially a TH-200 with a OD added.
2. A common failure point is the OD clutch drum - plastic thrust washers
are used, which don't hold up under stress.
3. Front pump failures. A HD pump is available, but I don't know from
where.
- >I'd recommend schmoozing around your local tranny rebuilders' and getting
>their comments, and maybe calling some of the racing trans builders and
>talking to them.
- Tried that route. All the local tranny shops want to retrofit a TH700-4R,
which is too expensive for me, and requires too may mods. Haven't tried any
mail-order sources. Got any starts?
KEN MOSHER
gnttype 03 Mar 1994
- [...Thanks all! Does anyone have any tips on doing a rebuild on one?
It's not going behind a V6, but if they've held up under GNX motors there
must be something right about them. (FYI, it's going behind a Olds 350)
- Well, here's what I did with mine ....
1. Install heavy duty clutch/steel rebuild kit. Mine cost about $100 and
came with extra clutches for the weak 3/4 shift. It also had a heavy
duty band, all the seals, springs, filter, etc. Very complete.
2. Install hardened input shaft. That's one of the weak parts that can get
really bunged up on a hear launching car.
3. Install 10 vane pump to replace stock 7 vane pump. Pretty cheap and good
for smoothness and noise reduction. Helps stabilize pressures too.
4. Be very paranoid about the drum. Any signs of wear or heat, replace it.
It's worth the $100 IMHO. You can resurface it, but these drums are very
tough to get perfectly round again when you do this.
5. While you are in there, put a shift kit in. B&M TransPack is my
recommendation. It has very nice shifts (not neck jerkers like Art
Carr's) under part throttle, but really firms the shifts up under WOT.
6. After the car is put back together, run a tranny cooler in addition to
the in radiator unit. B&M super coolers seem to look/fit/work great.
- That's about it... your Olds won't have the GN valve body, so it might be a
little lighter duty, and the TRs came with a different case stamping.
[email protected] (Norb Brotz)
gnttype 04 Mar 1994
- > Thanks all! Does anyone have any tips on doing a rebuild on
> one? It's not going behind a V6, but if they've held up under GNX
> motors there must be something right about them. (FYI, it's going
> behind a Olds 350)
- I paged through a parts book yesterday and can report that the casing is the
same. ;-) One item that is unique to the 86-87 TR is the pump. The governor
assemblies are also TR specific. (I forgot to look at the valve bodies, but
I suspect they are also unique.) Also note that there are kits available to
further upgrade the TR pump. (The kit that ATR markets claims to fit '84-'87
TRs, even though the parts book says that the 86-87 pump is different. Huh?)
- I have a TR and non-TR 200-4R awaiting disection. (as soon as I get around
to it ...) But don't hold your breath waiting for a summary.
[email protected] (Dave Williams)
gnttype 04 Mar 1994
- I just got off the phone with TCI in Mississippi. While I had them on the
line I asked them about the T200's failure modes. They said the input shaft
and planetary hub are weak points, as is the splined hub in the convertor.
They sell heavy duty parts, or a complete replacement (no core needed)
calibrated for the GN for $1200.
[email protected] (Norb Brotz)
gnttype 04 Mar 1994
- > Thanks all! Does anyone have any tips on doing a rebuild on one?
- I paged through a parts book yesterday and can report that the casing is the
same. ;-) One item that is unique to the 86-87 TR is the pump. The governor
assemblies are also TR specific. (I forgot to look at the valve bodies, but
I suspecion of the modulator pressure; low modulator pressure causes slow
engagement and a smooth shift. High modulator pressure due to large throttle
opening causes harsh shifts. As the vehicle continues to gain road speed the
governor pressure continues to increase. Eventually the governor pressure
force exceeds the modulator pressure force by enough to operate the 2-3
shift valve. This activates another clutch pack which shifts the
transmission into third gear.
- Note that I spoke of pressure forces above. This is due to the fact that
the pressures operate on the ends of small pistons (the shift valves). The
pressure applied to the area of the piston develops a force. Since the
shift valves have two ends, and since pressure is applied to both ends (one
end from the modulator and one end from the governor), the difference
between the two forces causes the valve to move to one end or the other of
its travel. Because the areas of the two ends of the valve do not have to
be equal, the valve will operate in accordance to the difference between
some constant times the governor pressure versus the modulator pressure.
This fact allows the designer quite a bit of latitude in determining at what
road speeds the transmisison will shift. There are also small springs which
apply force to one end of the shift valves and these also affect the road
speed at which the shifts occur.
- There are other complications in the tranny. For example, it has a means of
deciding when the throttle is wide open (the detent cable) and WOT causes
the modulator pressure to be ignored and instead a constant pressure from a
detent regulator is used on the shift valves. This causes shifts to occur
at the maximum possible road speed for each gear. There is a manual valve
which is connected to the gear selector lever and which selects reverse,
neutral, and can lock out either 3rd gear or lock out 2nd and 3rd gear.
There is a main pressure regulator which is controlled by the modulator
pressure; higher modulator pressures increase the pressure of the main oil
which supplies everything else. Most of these complications can be ignored
for the present time because Jon's interest is in the road speeds at which
the tranny shifts.
- Now, to get to the question of adjusting the shift speeds. There is no
"adjustment bolt on the side of the trans". The only way to make major
changes to the shift speeds is to modify or replace either the governor or
the valve body. You can make minor changes to the shift speeds by
installing an adjustable aftermarket vacuum modulator. The total adjusting
range of these modulators is about 4 to 5 MPH at WOT. At cruising speeds
you will get about 2 MPH total adjustment range. This probably isn't enough
to suit.
- Working on the governor is probably the best approach to adjusting the shift
speeds. The factory actually offers a high shift speed governor; it was
used in a few HP applications such as Camaros. You can just swap one of
these in and you will see a dramatic increase in shift speeds. In fact, it
may shift at too high a road speed after the change. E-mail me if you are
interested in
brooktree.com!tesla.is!hale (bob hale)
hotrod [data lost in crash]
of days.
- Another approach to modifying the governor is to get a B&M governor kit and
to install it in a NEW factory governor. Governors are very sensitive and
delicate beasts; they "take a set" when they have been run for a while and
they _don't_ like to be messed with. A new governor will probably save you
the grief of a sticking governor after modification. The B&M kit comes with
an assortment of small weights and several springs. You have to experiment
to find the right combination. It took me 10 or 11 tries to get the WOT
shift speeds that I wanted. The B&M instructions are downright poor; you
need to change the weights to get the 1-2 shift speed that you want, and you
need to change the springs to get the 2-3 shift speed that you want.
Unfortunately, these changes interact and you will need to iterate to get
both of them where you want them.
- The governor is fairly easy to change because it is accessible by removing a
small cover on the side of the tranny at the rear. Caution: the trans will
be hot when you are down there messing with the governor. It is easy to
burn yourself. I suggest gloves. And you will probably want to lay in a
small stock of gaskets for the governor cover.
- As I mentioned above, governors are finicky. Absolute cleanliness is a
must. If ANY amount of dirt, grit, grinding compound, metal shavings, or
any other foreign material gets into the governor then you will have all
sorts of shifting problems which will likely be intermittent and erratic and
near impossible to troubleshoot. The contamination can get washed out of the
governor and end up in the valve body where it will cause bizarre problems.
- One final thought: your original question suggested that the shift speeds
are too low at all throttle openings. One possible cause of this is a leaky
governor. The leakage could be due to scoring of the valve journals, or to
a loose fit between the valve journals and the governor shaft. Or it may be
due to wear on the journals which the governor engages in the case. If
looseness is the cause of your problem then just replacing the modulator
should fix it. If case journal wear is the problem then you can get a kit
from a tranny specialist which will allow you to put new bushings in the
journal area. This fix requires removing the tranny from the vehicle so
that you can properly clean out the metal chips after you have finished.
KEN MOSHER
gnttype 24 Mar 1994
- [...This seems like an opportune time to beef up and possibly rebuild the
[trans, any suggestions here on kits/parts?
- Raybestos makes a very nice rebuild kit. ATR sells it and I have it in my
car. While you are getting it reconditioned, it's a good idea to replace
the input shaft with a hardened one and to really consider replacing the
drum. It's very tough to get these round by polishing them and it'll eat the
band.
- Also, put the B&M Transpak shift kit in it while it's apart. It won't
really affect part throttle shifts, but it makes the WOT shifts much
crisper. Also, you might consider replacing the converter ... GM has them
for $130 exchange. The above recommendations result in a nice fresh tranny
that retains all the good features of the 100% stock setup (mpg and
streetability) and beefs it up for increased performance and reliability.
[email protected]
gnttype 28 Apr 1994
- b) I understand the TV cable setup is very important. What is the
> correct means pre-operation adjustment. Various explanations have
> been offered, but I would like more substance to the explanations.
> IE..do this because.....or else this will happen...
- Yes, it's VERY important. Do not drive the vehicle at ALL with the TV cable
disconnected. The first WOT 1-2 shift will fry the 2-4 band. For the
linkage on the throttlebody or carb, use a stock one for a 700R4 if there is
any way you can, and if not, find one anyway to observe path that the tv
cable attachment point moves relative to the tv cable mounting bracket as a
function of throttle angle.... or just your pivot at exactly the same place
as the OEM one (same X,Y coordinates in the plane of the throttle arm)...
and you'll want to do your comparisons at WOT, since the WOT tv position is
much more critical than idle. Your TV cable bracket needs to be STOUT: if
you can noticeably deflect it with foot pressure (leg press it), it ain't
strong enough. Adjust the tv cable just like the factory book says push
the "button" on the cable and pull the cable housing away from the mount,
then release the button. Next open the throttle by hand at the throttlebody
to WOT. The TV cable is now adjusted to factory specs. I know some people
with 200R4's will push in the button and carefully pull the cable back one
"click" from the factory setting, but I don't think this should be necessary
with the 700R4. One other note: get an OEM style TV cable. I had to use a
custom type tv cable with a two-piece housing on my truck and the
compression fitting the attached the two parts of the concentric cable
housings slipped the first time the cable got hot.
- > c) The Lockup (TCC) will be operated thru a combination of vacuum
> switches (no computer). An article in Car Craft (Jan or Feb 94)
> showed the schematic and wiring. Any ideas out there about
> making sure this works, so the trans won't overheat and fail.
> Also.....substance....why....how...what for etc....
- A vacuum switch may give you some serious headaches.... consider this
scenario: you are crusing along with some amount of vacuum high enough to
trip the vacuum switch. You depress the throttle a little more until vacuum
drops enough for the TCC to unlock. The TCC unlocks and RPM's rise. Now
vacuum rises and the TCC locks again. TCC locks, RPM's fall vacuum falls...
see the cycle yet? I don't know if it will actually happen, but it very
well could. A vacuum switch with more of a difference between on and off
ratings will fix it.
- I don't believe any transmission damage will result from leaving the TCC
disconnected, just decreased fuel economy. Also, if it screws up and your
cicuit sticks on for some reason (gets shorted to ground somewhere), it'll
drive a little funny, but it isn't dangerous. The 700R4's that I have seen
will only lockup in 3rd and 4th gear, so when you are coming to a stop the
tcc will unlock as soon as the tranny downshifts to 2nd. It also locks back
up immediately after going back into 3rd. The 3-4 shift at low-med throttle
is normally done with the TCC locked anyway, so thats no big deal either.
The only place I see for damage to occur is WOT with the TCC locked in 3rd
or 4th gear, since the TCC isn't designed to take WOT. I'm not sure if
there is a safety in the tranny to unlock the TCC as a function of the tv
cable/main pressure.
[email protected]
gnttype 30 Jun 1994
- Here's exactly the procedure to convert a lockup pump to a non-lockup pump
on the 200-4R.
- 1) Remove checkball and casing from input shaft. (works with lockup to,
makes the lockup feel like another gear shift)
2) Remove lockup valve assembly from pump.
3) Replace with Art Carr's non-lockup valve.
4) Remove a cup plug from pump.
5) Tap cup plug oriface and insert hex screw, locking non-lockup valve in
place
- That's it. Going back to lockup isn't too big of a deal. The hardest part
was getting the cup plug to hold in the tapped oriface. I just expanded the
plug with a hammer. :) I left the checkball out of the shaft. Feels like I
have five gears now when it locks up.
- BTW: You can keep both a lockup version and a non-lockup version pump lying
around, and the only change to go from one to the other would be switching
the pump and converter. I was going to do this so I ordered a pump from a
GSCA supplier. But I found the the stator support was a USED unit and it
was installed such that I couldn't remove it. So I just converted the non-
lockup pump back to a lockup.
[email protected] (Ron Mellum)
gnttype 18 Jul 1994
- >Also, which way does the TV cable adjustment go to decrease the shift
>point? My tranny is shifting at abnormally high rpm after the engine
>rebuild.
- Be careful not to set it too loose. This is one of the fastest ways to ruin
the 200R4. To check, accelerate slowly from a stop. After the car has
shifted into 2nd, floor the accelerator and make sure the car drops back to
first. If it doesn't, the TV cable is set too loose.
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 01 Aug 1994
- This weekend I finally put in my 'shift kit'. This is the B&M unit for the
200-4R (Part #35229) Installation was not difficult, but definitely a bit
more complicated than changing your plugs.
- After removing the pan and dumping fluid _everywhere_, I went through the
well illustrated instructions step by step. I put it in with the 'Street'
level modifications as opposed to the lesser 'Heavy Duty' level. Most of the
changes are pretty minor and easily accomplished. The only 'permanent'
changes were a few holes in the valve body separator plate that have to be
opened up a little with supplied drill bits.
- When I removed the filter, the sealing ring on the neck stuck in the bore in
the transmission case. This appears to be common. I found that it had
hardened, making it difficult to get out. I was able to slide it out using a
tool designed for opening paint cans. Its flat, hooked end was perfect for
getting above the ring pulling it down and out. I found that the 3-4
accumulator spring and piston were assembled upside down from their
described orientation. From talking to several other people, this is
actually somewhat common. The kit instructions even mention this. I
reinstalled them with the correct orientation. After looking at the diagrams
in the factory service manuals, I don't understand how it managed to work at
all as it was installed.
- Perhaps the most difficult part of the installation is reassembly, since it
requires you to do several things that would probaly be easier if the
transmission was upside down. If you are used to working on cars, defying
gravity should be something you've already mastered. :-)
- I decided to install B&M's drain plug in the pan after seeing how much fun
it was cleaning up all the fluid when I took it off the first time. This
should make a fluid and filter change much easier in the future. I installed
the plug where there had been a dimple in the pan for locating a magnet,
however there was none. Note that the plug requires a 1/2" hole. This is
larger than most handheld drills can handle. I used a drill whose shank had
been turned down smaller so it would work with a hand drill. A drill press
would probably work best.
- The instructions are very insistent about having you reset the throttle
valve cable. I liked the way the car was shifting before I made the change,
and was tempted to leave it alone. However, since the instructions seemed to
indicate not doing it would curve your spine and lose the war for the Allies
(apologies to George Carlin), I went ahead and reset it. The cable ended up
a few notches more rearward than it had started out. This caused it to shift
a few hundred RPM later than it had been and _very_ hard. At anything over
about 25% thottle, the 1-2 shift was guaranteed to 'bark' the tires. From
other's experiences I have heard, this was not characteristic of this kit.
So I readjusted the cable a bit more forward. After initially over-
correcting, I have found that with the cable adjusted to my liking the car
shifts just a bit firmer during part-throttle 'around town' driving.
However, WOT shifts are nice and solid but don't require frequent
chiropractic attention. :-) If anyone was thinking about installing this kit
and was concerned about driveability, I would say you shouldn't be.
- In all, it was not a difficult installation. If you are planning on
attempting this I would suggest that you take your time and make sure to
carefully observe everything as you take it apart. If you don't have a drain
plug in your transmission, I would suggest you get a _very_ large drain pan
and consider installing a drain plug upon reassembly. An extra hand wouldn't
hurt during reassembly, either.
[email protected]
gnttype 01 Aug 1994
- >I found that the 3-4 accumulator spring and piston were assembled upside
>down from their described orientation. From talking to several other
>people, this is actually somewhat common. The kit instructions even mention
>this. I reinstalled them with the correct orientation. After looking at the
>diagrams in the factory service manuals, I don't understand how it managed
>to work at all as it was installed.
- The turbo Regals have this piston installed upside down on purpose. Maybe
it helps the shift on these higher performance cars. I hope by "correct
orientation" you meant upside down. (The way it came out, assuming no one
else has been in your trans).
- Strange you didn't have the magnet. I wonder if someone else *has* been in
your trans. Get a magnet, it will only help to increase the life of your
200-4R by keeping metal particles from circulating through the internals.
The best bet would be an externally mounted filter with one of Kirban's
MetalArrestor magnets. That's in my furture plans.
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 01 Aug 1994
- >The turbo Regals have this piston installed upside down on purpose.
- Looking at the fluid flow diagrams in the factory service manuals, having
this piston and spring put in upside-down doesn't seem to make much sense.
And the B&M modification would not appear work with the parts in this
arrangement.
- I'm not doubting that a large number of these cars have things assembled
this way. (Anyone know of ones that weren't?) I'd sure like to know why,
however. I have yet to see anything documenting the 'upside down'
arrangement.
- Anyone have experiences to relate?
[email protected]
gnttype 01 Aug 1994
- >Anyone have experiences to relate?
- Doesn't the factory repair manual state that transmission type CZ,BZ (or
something like that) requires this to be upside down? My TransGo kit also
mentioned that you should flip it over when you do the installation of their
kit.
- Okay, I just called my trans guy. He explained like this, "Flipping that
piston over and putting the spring on the back side increases the volume for
the shift, giving you a firmer 3-4 shift."
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 01 Aug 1994
- >factory repair manual state that transmission type CZ,BZ (or something
>like that) requires this to be upside down? My TransGo kit also mentioned
>that you should flip it over when you do the installation of their kit.
- I'll check the manuals, but didn't see anything.
- Now does the TransGo kit tell you to reinstall piston as it was (the 'wrong'
way) or the 'right' way? The B&M says to install it the 'right' way, which
is opposite the way I found it.
- >Okay, I just called my trans guy. He explained like this, "Flipping that
>piston over and putting the spring on the back side increases the volume
>for the shift, giving you a firmer 3-4 shift."
- Flipping it over...which way? ;-)
[email protected]
gnttype 01 Aug 1994
- >Now does the TransGo kit tell you to reinstall piston as it was (the
>'wrong' way) or the 'right' way? The B&M says to install it the
>'right' way, which is opposite the way I found it.
- It tells you to install it upside down with the spring on the other side.
But in the case of the GN, it's already like that. It could be that the B&M
kit requires it to be the normal (low performance) way to accomodate some
other change they have made in the valve body.
- I'll take a look at my documetation tonight. I have the TransGo and Art
Carr kit manuals, as well as the Buick service manual.
- Did the B&M kit have you remove the #8 checkball? That's the one in the
center of the valve body. If you didn't, and you want a little more kick on
the 1-2 you can take it out. If you did remove it, and you want less kick,
put it back in.
- Did the B&M kit do anything with the servo / 3rd accumulator? That's the
piece that comes out of the side of the trans.
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 02 Aug 1994
- >Did the B&M kit have you remove the #8 checkball? That's the one in the
>center of the valve body. If you didn't, and you want a little more
>kick on the 1-2 you can take it out. If you did remove it, and you want
>less kick, put it back in.
- All the checkballs are in their stock locations.
- >Did the B&M kit do anything with the servo / 3rd accumulator? That's the
>piece that comes out of the side of the trans.
- Nope. Here are the changes for the 'street' level installation of the B&M
Transpak:
1 - Pressure regulator valve changed and tighter spring installed. BTW,
the valve is a GM part in a GM label bag. I'm going to try to track
down its origin. Must be from another application.
2 - 5 holes enlarged in the valve body separator plate.
3 - Tighter spring installed on the line bias valve in the valve body.
4 - 3-4 Accumulator installed with spring above piston (regardless of
original orientation) and spacer placed above piston. Appears to
limit maximum travel.
5 - 1-2 Accumulator reinstalled with spacer placed below piston.
[email protected]
gnttype 02 Aug 1994
- >I'll take a look at my documetation tonight. I have the TransGo and Art
>Carr kit manuals, as well as the Buick service manual.
- In the 1986 Buick Service Manual, Page 200-4R-60, Figure 200-4R-229 is a
drawing of the 3-4 accumulator piston and spring being installed spring
first, with the piston ribs towards the *case*. In the upper-right corner
of the figure is a box that states, "For 'BY' Model Invert And Install
Piston First".
- I didn't feel like crawling under my car this morning but I'll bet my GN has
a 'BY' model trans. When I did my valve body kit, my accum. was setup like
the 'BY' model description. I can almost guarantee I was the first one
inside my trans.
- This goes along with what the TransGo kit has you do to *all* 200-4Rs. The
TransGo kit has you put a spring on each side of the piston and instructs the
mechanic to install the piston with the ribs towards the *plate* (valve body
separator). Which is the same as the 'BY' model has it.
- I'm assuming you found your accumulator setup like the 'BY' model and
changed it to the other setup.
- I wouldn't change what you've already done since you are happy with the
performance. Unless you want a crisper 3-4 shift.
- I hope this clears up why you found it to be 'upside down'.
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 02 Aug 1994
- >In the 1986 Buick Service Manual, Page 200-4R-60, Figure 200-4R-229 is a
>drawing of the 3-4 accumulator piston and spring being installed spring
>first, with the piston ribs towards the *case*. In the upper-right corner
>of the figure is a box that states, "For 'BY' Model Invert And Install
>Piston First".
- I'll have to re-read through that section tonight. I have the '87 manual. I
don't recall the TR trans designation, but 'BY' may well be it.
- >This goes along with what the TransGo kit has you do to *all* 200-4Rs. The
>TransGo kit has you put a spring on each side of the piston and instructs
>the mechanic to install the piston with the ribs towards the *plate* (valve
>body separator). Which is the same as the 'BY' model has it.
- Interesting. Sounds like it is supposed to accomplish roughly the same thing
as the spacer in the B&M kit. With springs on either side the piston
orientation probably wouldn't make that much difference since it couldn't
fully seat in either direction. So long as the springs were on the proper
side, of course.
- >I'm assuming you found your accumulator setup like the 'BY' model and
>changed it to the other setup.
- Correct. This is what the B&Meen the ECM and TCC switch is opened, thus
preventing TCC lockup. The other interlock is a switch inside the case that
prevents lock-up unless the transmission is in 3rd or 4th gear. If your car
is locking-up while parked in drive, you probably have something else wrong.
Could be that the TCC solenoid was stuck in the "on" position.
- BTW, you can manually lock-up your converter by grounding the TCC pin on the
ECM. Use a switch to facilitate unlocking it though!
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 09 Aug 1994
- Well, I'm real confused now.
- I decided to dig into the service manual to see what it said about the
orientation of the 3-4 accumulator piston and spring. Well, the exploded
view of the whole transmission shows the piston on the case side of the
spring. Other exploded views of the assembly show the piston on the
separator plate side of the spring. Not only that, but in these exploded
views, the piston itself is very clearly shown in two different orientations
in different pictures! i.e. The piston has 3 raised areas on one face. These
are shown facing the spring and case in one, away from the spring and case
in the other! The text seems to cause one to expect the spring on the case
side, I might note.
- In the 'hydraulic diagnosis' section, the hydraulic schematics show the
spring on the case side, with the rased areas facing the case.
- This is in the '87 service manual. I could find no application-specific
notes.
- It seems that the majority of sources at my disposal show the spring on the
case side, raised areas of piston toward case. This is how the B&M
literature places it as well. This is precisely the opposite of its
orientation as factory installed in my car. (and most TRs, from what I hear)
[email protected]
gnttype 12 Aug 1994
- I figured out my trans' slipping 1-2 and 2-3 WOT shift problem. It was that
darn servo I bought from none other than Tech Transmissions. I've been
meaning to take it out and put the slightly modified original back in for
sometime now and finally did it last night.
- Now my 1-2 shift isn't so hard at part throttle anymore, but is still very
firm and quick. The 2-3 shift doesn't have problems figuring out if it
really wants to shift or not anymore. And best of all niether shift gets
mushy at WOT!
- To anyone on the list who has a Tech Transmission's tranny, and wants to fix
the same:
- 1) Get the original 200-4R servo assembly from another 200-4R.
2) Get the servo piston and cover kit from Kirban. (My trans already had
the correct cover and piston, but a bone yard trans probably won't,
and the Tech Trans unit is totally wrong).
3) Plug the hole in the servo piston.
4) Optional: Get the trans-go SysKoKal kit and do the servo tech. This
kit cost about $20 from a wholesaler.
5) Reinstall.
6) Provided nothing else in the trans is messed up, you should be a happy
camper.
- shifts were sloppy is because the apply pin doesn't have the seal rings like
the stock apply pin (nor provisions for seal rings). This probably let the
pressure bleed right out of the circuit. The intermediate servo is wholly
responsible for the 1-2 and 2-3 shift. It's the only piece that is common
to both shifts.
James Butler
23 Aug 1994
- > The usual mods made to GN transmissions are:
> 1) 10 vane pump
> 2) Extra clutches in 4th gear clutch pack
> 3) Extra clutches in forward clutch pack
> 4) Hardened stator support
> 5) A good valve body kit (TransGo has a new Full Race kit for $80!)
> 6) Higher pressure spring in the P.R. valve
- > That's it. Art Carr sells really quality parts for this application.
> Don't let him talk you into a non-lockup converter if your car is a
> daily driver though.
- That's all? That's great, but who is Art Carr, and does he work on other
transmissions or just the 200R4? Has anyone rated this combination for
torque or some other figure of merit? How about longevity? Your "daily
driver" comment makes me think that this trans is expected to hold together
for some period of time.
[email protected] (Ron Mellum)
gnttype 24 Aug 1994
- > the 200-4R in the GNs were (correct me if I'm wrong) "BY" code in '86
- "BR" in '86 also. At least that's what's on my tag.
KEN MOSHER
gnttype 24 Aug 1994
- [...My question is, what stall speed should I choose for good compromise
[between streetability and low end throttle response. If stock is the
[answer, what is that speed?
- The stock ones are damn good. They stall at about 2400 rpm on a slightly
modified car. As you build more HP, the stall will increase a bit. My
stock converter stalled at about 2600 rpm in my 11 second car. I JUST got
the modified stock converter (300 rpm more stall) installed last night and
took it out for a drive. The converter seems to stall at an honest 2800
RPM before it starts pushing the street tires. I'll have to see what it
flashes to at the track, but I don't have any trouble believing 2900 stall.
- It drives like stock on the street. I notice a little more "jolt" when the
TCC kicks in ... probably due to a little more slippage. Other than that,
it makes the car even more of an animal. You can get a h*lluva set of black
marks at 30 mph <*Grin*>
- [...rebuilt converter with a stall of 1850 RPM. That seemed a bit too low.
- Yep ... I think our converters are the "D" code converters with a bit more
stall. Some of the replacement ones look the same, but have less stall (for
the Monte SSs).
- [...Furthermore, are there any really important things to have the guy check
[while the tranny is out? I want to make sure everything is the way it
[should be, not the way HE thinks it should be. They seem to be familiar
[with the 200-R4, but not with how it is used in a GN.
- Hmmm ... make sure the pump has the new style lip seals. Also, now would be
the good time to put a freshen up kit in it (~$125), 10 vane pump (~$80),
and hardened input shaft (~$70) + labor (my guy does it for $80). All good
reliability investments. Maybe a shift kit now too (like the Trans Go or
B&M Transpak).
[email protected]
gnttype 24 Aug 1994
- IMHO, the reason the GN guys can run what most consider a light duty tranny
behind their motors is mainly due to the torque curve of the turbo motor. I
had initially considered that tranny with the same thoughts (well, if an 11
sec 1/4 mile V-6 doesn't blow it up, it must be good enough for me). If I
remember correct, the GN 200R4 had special calibrations and mods from the
factory.
- I have noticed too that the 200R4 seems to only appear on mild, naturally
aspirated small blocks. I'm sure if the aftermarket could find a way to
make the 200R4 live behind 400HP small blocks (within reasonable cost
limits), more would be used in such applications. You would gain in weight
savings and reduced frictional losses as compared to the 700R4.
- Considering the motors you and I intend on using, I don't think a 200R4
could be used within budgetary limits. If you throw enough money into it,
I'm sure it would be happy behind a 700-inch blown and injected engine :+).
Consider this: with the noted exception of the GN, the 200R4 was used only
in low performance applications. They used the 700R4 on the 190 HP 305's!
If even GM wouldn't consider backing those with the 200R4...
- The 200R4 has its uses, but is most likely not the tranny you or I need to
use.
KEN MOSHER
gnttype 24 Aug 1994
- [...IMHO, the reason the GN guys can run what most consider a light duty
[tranny behind their motors is mainly due to the torque curve of the turbo
- Yep ... the 200-4R in the GNs were (correct me if I'm wrong) "BY" code in
'86 and "BR" code for '87. Different valve body. I'm curious about torque
curves though ... you might be right, we don't tend to "shock" things as
hard, since the cars tend to come on with a "whoosh" instead of a "bang".
- However, I'd say that the torque figures are pretty big for the turbo
motors. Quarter Jr. says my car must be making an average of 435 HP at the
rear wheels and Chuck's is pushing 475 HP. No torque, but I'd love to know.
Anybody got a way to figure torque?
- Also, the torque occurs down low ... starts really waking up about 2500-2800
rpm. We shift at about 5200-5400 rpm. Very similar to a big block ... but
maybe less shock again?
- BTW, Brady Perry had an Art Carr (of Mustang, off road, GN fame) prepped
200-4R than lived behind his 10.20 car with a 4000 stall converter. The car
was a daily driver too ... yet when he dialed the DFI into "race mode", the
car would pull 3 foot wheel stands and turn 10.20s-30s all day at 128-129
mph. This was a full weight 3500+ pound car. The tranny cost him $1200
exchange, so it cost him $$$.
Cooldave
gnttype 27 Sep 1994
- > I went to the mountain last night and consulted the wise man at the top...
> Red Armstrong ... about several things ...
- > Both Chuck and I were experiencing a short flare on the 2->3 shift. Red
> said he saw the same thing with his and hooked a pressure gauge up and
> noted that the pressure fell 100 psi after the 2->3 shift. He suspected
> low fluid levels or foaming and did a series of experiments. Lots of
> detail on what he tried ...
- > What he finally came up with was to use the 700R4 filter (with the pickup
> on the bottom of the filter) and two O-rings on the neck of the filter.
> Both Chuck and I did this and Viola! Works great! Who'd have thunk it!
- > The filter is a tight fit, you have to snug the bolts in the pan to get it
> to fit correctly. This problem only seems to be apparent on higher HP
> cars.
- Mike Kurtz (Conley's tranny guru) Reccomends using O2 sensor safe rtv, and
running a bead around the crimp of the filter...Where the metal crimps
around the plastic... I tried it on mine, and Bo Rice did it on his.. Bo's
was so bad that the "flare" was a sliding shift that never really finished
till after the traps.. The rtv picked him up almost 5 mph at the 1/4 with no
change at the 1/8th. Mike also recomends running the tranny 1 pint over
full.. not enough to foam, but enough to keep the filter submerged. Mike
said the danger of the 700-r4 filter is if the clearance between the opening
and the pan bottom is too small... IE: the ridges are smaller on some brands
of filters... then the trans self destructs due to total loss of fluid
pressure. And the filter plugs up faster as sediment doesn't sit on the
bottom of the pan and now gets sucked into the filter..
[email protected] (Jay Carter)
gnttype 02 Jun 1995
- Back in the "old days" (You remember those, right??!!) I bought a 16930 9"
Converter from Art at Bowling Green in 1990 and proceeded to twist the neck
out of it. Half track at 100 MPH with trans fluid everywhere!!! Interesting
ride..... Anyway, I went through 3 more before Art finally got me one that
worked.
- The problem with Art is his consistentcy and quality control. I think now
he's even worse than he used to be. I have a guy down here who repairs
converters and he's fixed something like 6 or 7 Art Carr's and he told me
they were all different inside and it looked like he used whatever was lying
around to build them. Art also has a problem with using cheap labor (Souther
California, lemme see your green card!!). I have a friend who has been to
Art's many times and he said the converter shop looked like a taco stand, if
you know what I mean.
[email protected] (Norm Dang)
rec.autos.tech 8 Jun 95
- M > : > [...]. That's why it's not recommended to use OD for towing - it
M > : > wasn't designed for those loads.
- M > : I beg to differ with the statement above. GM, Ford, and Dodge permit
M > : towing in OD as long as the tranny does not hunt back and forth
M > : between OD and third. It conserves fuel and lowers engine RPM. I
M > : would not recommend pulling a 6% grade in OD, but as long as you
M > : are towing on level terrain, using OD is acceptable. Driving in the
M > : mountaineous terrain out West is another thing altogether.
- I saw an article a few months ago about modifying 700R4 and 200R4 trannies
for higher performance. It stated that when the stock tranny is in OD, hot
fluid get pumped directly to the pan, rather than going through the cooler.
This is done to maximize mileage. It further stated that it was possible to
overheat the tranny by letting it repeatedly shift between 3rd and 4th under
hi load. Both rebuilders (Art Carr and TCI ?) quoted in the article modify
the tranny to always run the fluid through the cooler. This might help
explain why some manufacturers make the above recommendation.
cfasulo%[email protected] (DIFFUSION TECH, BEEPER 279)
gnttype 11 Jun 1995
- Here is some info form the GM service manual regarding the TCC solenoid and
gear pressure switches.
- OUR model of the 200R4 (and there are many models) only uses two gear
pressure switches in the valve body. One is the 3rd gear switch and one is
the 4th gear switch--there is no 2nd gear switch. Neither switch is in
series with the TCC solenoid. (SEE Chart C-8, Page 6E3-C8-6) The electrical
schematics in the service manual (Page 8A-21-3) also only shows a 3rd and
4th gear switch. Also, these are normally closed switches and OPEN when the
tranny shifts to 3rd and 4th. The transmission in our car was never
designed to lock up the converter in 2nd gear anyway. Also remember that
the converter clutch is activated by hydraulic pressure not the TCC
solenoid. When the solenoid is activated AND the valves in the valve body
are in the 2nd gear apply configuration the converter will lock up--this is
under a "forced" lock up condition. If the converter were to lock up in
first the car would stall out just as if you dumped the clutch in a manual
tranny.
- I too had a converter that would not lock up. All the electricals checked
out fine. My problem turned out to be a stuck converter clutch apply valve
in the front pump. Pulled the valve from the pump, chucked it carefully in
a drill and polished it up with some scotchbrite. Converter lock up has
been working fine since.
- Here is a quick way to check to see if your TCC solenoid is working without
having to drop the pan:
- 1) Key on car not running
2) Jump pin 'F' to pin 'A' on diagnostic connector
3) Get your ear as close to the tranny pan as possible.
4) Have someone press the break pedal repeatedly--you may be able to do
this yourself
5) Believe it or not you can and should be able to hear the solenoid
clicking--it is not real loud so you need to do this in quiet
surroundings.
Edward Hugh Welbon
gnttype 19 Jun 1995
- In the same vein as the previous post on this subject, I thought I would
mention that I put the B&M shift kit (performance calibration) into my 86 GN
and ask the Buick oracle and few questions that have consequently arisen.
- Some background: my 60ft times have been an embarassment to the breed, the
best 60ft time was around 2.25-2.3 with (gulp) McCreary N50s (i think)
southside bars and traction compound. The McCrearys were inflated to, oh,
15 psi. My mph was about 105 on those passes (13.5 ets). Every one that
had driven the car at that time commented on how early the 1-2 shift
occurred (2600 rpm or so). Since then I have replaced the motor and tranny
mounts (badly sagging) but still have abysmal 60ft times (though the most
recent passes have been with D40M2 radials).
- When I put the shift kit in I discovered that the 1-2 accumulator spring was
broken such that there was no preload of the spring what ever (BTW, the
factory had put the 3-4 piston was on top of the 3-4 spring). Naturally, I
found out about the failed spring at 6:00 PM Saturday and couldn't find any
one open to sell me a new one (ha... *finding* a new one took a bit of leg
work).
- I *lucked* out and found someone in a tranny shop on Sunday morning that had
a spring alledged to be from a Trans Go kit (yellow spring). I doubt that
it was a TG sring since its uncompressed height was about 1/4 inch shorter
than what I think the stock spring was (the stock spring was white, or maybe
light gray in color). I didn't have anything else to use so after some
discussion with a few GN folk in the area, Scott Keller and Ken Mosher
(thanks for letting me be an issufferable annoyance BTW), I crossed my
fingers and used the alledged TG spring.
- Now the shift points have moved up to 15mph/3000 for 1-2 and about
35mph/3800 2-3 and 3-4 to around 50mph (though that seems to be unhappy
cause the TCC seems to want to lock at that speed). I presume that the
change in shift points is a consequence of the recalibration. Today, with a
bunch of phone calling, I found two other springs, one is a purple spring
that has *slightly* smaller diameter (0.025" at most) wire (correct
uncompresseded height) and a black spring that has significantly heavier
wire (though maybe 1/16" less uncompressed height than the stock spring).
- Now the shifts are quite crisp ( almost too crisp) even on light throttle, I
and my hot-rod buddies detect no slippage. I have the tv adjusted as per
the GM procedure, I have yet to try adjust the cable forward a click or two.
The car feels like it accelrates better now (though I have proof that that
my butt is not well calibrated).
- So, the question is should I try the heavier springs? Should i dink with
the TV setting first? Are the shift points reasonable? (the main mods are
ATR313A cam, head work, ATR headers, 3" down tube, ATR exhaust, Armstrong
93(street) and 108(race) chips, blue stripes, ram air).
- One last thing, one transmission guy assured me that a lighter 1-2 spring
would surely damage the tranny (I don't think he fully comprehended the fact
that there was a shift kit in it though), he specifically refered to damage
to thrust washers. Any truth to this? I am on the digest so if you want to
contact me immeadiately use [email protected]. And thanks.
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 19 Jun 1995
- >I put the B&M shift kit (performance calibration) into my 86
>Now the shift points have moved up to 15mph/3000 for 1-2 and about
>35mph/3800 2-3 and 3-4 to around 50mph (though that seems to be unhappy
>cause the TCC seems to want to lock at that speed).
- Are these at WOT?
- >Now the shifts are quite crisp ( almost too crisp) even on light throttle,
>I and my hot-rod buddies detect no slippage. I have the tv adjusted as
>per the GM procedure, I have yet to try adjust the cable forward a click
>or two.
- I've installed this same kit. After resetting the cable per the procedure,
the shifts did occur too early and too hard. I found I did have to move the
jacket forward a few clicks to get the shift points right. Still shifts
tight and firm. I'd suggest trying that before going inside right away. If
moving it one or two clicks doesn't do the trick, however, it may be a sign
that the spring will need replacing.
- Perhaps someone familiar with the Trans-Go kit will know more about its
spring arrangement.
[email protected] (David Cooley)
gnttype 19 Jun 1995
- >Now the shift points have moved up to 15mph/3000 for 1-2 and about
>35mph/3800 2-3 and 3-4 to around 50mph (though that seems to be unhappy
>cause the TCC seems to want to lock at that speed). I presume that the
>change in shift points is a consequence of the recalibration. Today, with
>a bunch of phone calling, I found two other springs, one is a purple
>spring that has *slightly* smaller diameter (0.025" at most) wire (correct
>uncompresseded height) and a black spring that has significantly heavier
>wire (though maybe 1/16" less uncompressed height than the stock spring).
- The shift points are not controlled with the accumulator springs.. All they
do is change the firmness of the shifts. I eliminated the springs
altogether and put 3/8" nuts on the shafts to hold the pistons in place
after the trans go kit was in. The shift points are controlled in 3 places.
The shift valve springs, the TV cable adjustment, and the governer. At wide
open throttle, the governer should do all the shift point for you.. If the
springs have come loose or broked from the governer, then it will shift too
soon. Mine shifted at 5200 RPM from 1-2, at 4900 from 2-3 and 4800 from 3-
4. If your trans was rebuilt, and the wrong governor put in (they stuck the
governor from a diesel powered car in mine.. it shifted at about 2800...),
then the shiftpoints will be very off.
[email protected]
gnttype 20 Jun 1995
- Well, I thought we had a line on what's up with my tranny, but it didn't pan
out.
- The problem? The damn thing won't shift at WOT... just hits the rev limiter
(very quickly in 1st, I might add <*grin*>).
- It shifts fine under less than WOT ... fact is, if I set the TV cable
forward enough, it'll shift great up to almost WOT if I keep my thick floor
mat in the car (4.3 volts TPS). Take the floor mat out and it won't shift
(4.7 volts TPS)....hits the limiter.
- Tranny has a brand new valve body, the Trans Go kit, new clutches/steels,
new pump, etc. (after my other tranny woes). I'm using Mike Kurtz's 2800
stall lockup converter.
- We thought we traced it back to the TV system, but no matter how I mess with
the cable, I can' t get things right.
[email protected] (Jay Carter)
gnttype 20 Jun 1995
- Did you happen to put a shim in the TV Valve by any chance? If so, that will
definitely alter shift points somewhat. If not that, what about the
governor? Lastly, have you checked the pressure on the trans via a gauge? I
am having a trans problem myself that I can't figure out. It goes something
like this: Just fit the car with an Art Carr 9" converter (#16930 4000 stall
Thanks Mike!!). Anyway, I lost second gear on the other trans, I think a
valve just stuck, the car wouldn't shift out of first ever. Anyway, we had a
spare laying around that we had converted to non-lockup to take to the
Nationals as a backup for Nelson's car. Before when the trans had a lockup
converter, it shifted so hard that it would almost knock your teeth out.
Anyway, doing nothing but converting it over to NLU, the 1-2 shift has gone
away. Keep in mind that the valve body or servo has not been taken loose.
The 1-2 shift comes around 4500, the rest of the shifts come at their normal
shift point. The TV cable does change the shift points, too much on the 1-2
BTW. Anyway, I think I have a leak around the valve body. I am going to pull
the valve body down and put new gaskets on and check the check balls for
location. I talked with Mike Kurtz today (More on that at the end) and he
faxed me his drilling pattern for the seperator plate. I am going to
(attempt) try to work that into the Art Carr shift kit as well while I have
the plate down. If that doesn't work, I'm just gonna send my old trans to
Mike and have him fix it. It has the blue clutches and coleen steels so I'm
sure the forward and direct clutches are fine. Probably needs a band,
though.
- Anyway, about Mike Kurtz. I had talked with Mike before kind of in a general
bullshit session. I called him because of something totally untransmission
related and chewed the fat with him for a few minutes and found him to be a
very likable fellow (Good 'Ole Country Boy if such a thing exists in
Texas??!!) Anyway, after this deal I've had with my trans, I have to say
that next to Chuck Smithwick (Tech Transmissions in Nashville, Ga) Mike's
the best trans guy I've ever talked to. BTW, that's a joke, well, rather
Chuck's a joke. Seriously, though, Mike knows his stuff and I was VERY
impressed with not only his VAST knowledge of the 200/4R (And I'm sure
transmissions in general) but also his willingness to help me even though I
wasn't buying anything. There are quite a few vendors that really try VERY
HARD to sell you something everytime you call for advice. Mike's not one of
them. He told me flat out, "I get XXXXX dollars for my race rebuild, if we
can't fix it over the phone, send it to me and I'll take care of it for
you." Well, rest assured, if I can't fix it, it's on it's way to Texas. Mike
Kurtz is a class act, period.
Richard May
gnttype 20 Jun 1995
- > The shift points are not controlled with the accumulator springs.
- Which accum. assembly are you speaking of? I am getting ready to order the
one piece 2nd apply unit from AWI to help my slushbox. This unit is lacking
the accum piston under the servo. I wonder if your mod accomplishes some of
what this part is supposed to do.
Edward Hugh Welbon
gnttype 21 Jun 1995
- I mentioned that my shift points seemed high when I replaced the broken 1-2
spring with a weaker than stock 1-2 spring (also did the B&M shiftkit).
- Well I took another t-fluid shower last nite and put a slightly heavier 1-2
spring in (same number of turns as the factory spring, nearly identical
height (though its hard to be certain) and a bit over 0.020" larger wire
diameter. The 1-2 shift will now tear your head off 8-) and with just a bit
of a nudge on the throttle WHAM, down shift (here porschie, porschie, here
porschie, porschie 8-). Something will break, I just know it. But dang, it
sure is a fun way to break parts.
- I wish I had a better test than just staring at the tach, but I swear that
the 2-3 shift went down to 3600 from 3800 and the 1-2 went up to 3200 from
3000 rpm (aproximate rpms, with the GM tv adjustment and light throttle, no
opportunity for WOT availed itself today). I know that the RPM of the shift
points is not supposed to be controlled by the 1-2 spring, but I swear to
Dogbert that it did.
- Also, I have always seen a *slight* amount of frothing of the t-fluid at the
dipstick, it doesn't look like whipped cream, but there are a few bubbles
there (unlike the engine oil dipstick which has none fer instance). How
much is acceptable? I have the t-fluid filled to top of the cross hatched
safe zone of the dipstick, is this too much?
- Uhm, I am still using the factory tach (with turbolink) and was thinking
about getting a better tach, any suggestions on what makes sense? Where
might I best get one (like Summit or Jegs fer instance).
[email protected] (Carl F. Ijames)
gnttype 21 Jun 1995
- >>Now the shift points have moved up to 15mph/3000 for 1-2 and about
>>35mph/3800 2-3 and 3-4 to around 50mph (though that seems to be unhappy
- At very light throttle mine shifts at 2000 (the converter stall speed).
Slightly more gas and it shifts at about 2500 rpms in each gear.
- >after the trans go kit was in. The shift points are controlled in 3
>places. The shift valve springs, the TV cable adjustment, and the governer.
>At wide open throttle, the governer should do all the shift point for you..
>if the springs have come loose or broked from the governer, then it will
>shift too soon. Mine shifted at 5200 RPM from 1-2, at 4900 from 2-3 and
>4800 from 3-4. If your trans was rebuilt, and the wrong governor put in
>(they stuck the governor from a diesel powered car in mine.. it shifted at
>about 2800...), then the shiftpoints will be very off.
- If the governor springs break or come out it will shift very late. Mine
shifted at about 5000 rpm no matter how slowly or quickly I revved to that
rpm (thanks to TVM for diagnosing this for me :-)). A trans shop told me
that all 200-R4 governors are the same (I knew better but I needed to be
able to drive for a while til I could get a correct governor) so they put in
one they had; naturally it shifted at about 3000 rpm at WOT. As far as the
TV cable goes, shifting early=softer and late=firmer.
[email protected]
gnttype 22 Jun 1995
- [...I had the exact same problem you are having with upshift. I have had
[problems with the trans go kit. From that point forward, I have always used
[B+M . Anyway besides a possible governor; how about the PRESSURE REGULATOR
[valve.
- I pulled the regulator out and checked it. It looked like everything was OK
... it was the right one for the kit and everything.
- [...When did this problem start.
- When my tranny guy decided that the B&M kit was eating bands (at least it
shifted! <*Grin*>). He decided to install the Trans Go and do all the hop
up tips that Mike did. Then the d*mn thing started doing this, so he
installed the newest miracle kit from Trans Go, which involved actually
drilling and plugging VALVE body holes! Then the stupid thing was 100%
manual and slipped to boot.... out comes the tranny AGAIN (time #2), my
tranny guy conned GM into taking my original valve body back "under
warranty" and started completely over with a new governor and new valve
body.
- Installed the tranny and then "snap", the front pump broke ... piece of crap
blue stripe converter snout wasn't welded straight and it broke the pump.
Out comes the tranny again (time #3) then my guy replaced the pump and made
sure nothing went thru the rest of the tranny. That's where I'm at now.
- We dropped the pan about 3 times now ... once to make sure the governor
seals were good, once to pull the regulator valve and make sure it had the
right springs and valve, and once to check for a cracked filter. No luck
and it's back to the same thing that it was doing before the nightmare
started. We actually pulled the valve body out of Chuck's car and checked
all the check ball locations, hole sizes, springs, etc. Nothing amiss, as
far as the kit instructions go.
- Funny thing is .... Chuck's car had the same kit put in it WITHOUT Mike
Kurtz's modifications ... just the kit and it is doing the same thing. That
points to something in the kit to me.
- This is getting old ... maybe I can pester Mike a bit more for some trouble
shooting tips. Thanks for all the help!
[email protected]
gnttype 22 Jun 1995
- [...Did you happen to put a shim in the TV Valve by any chance? If so,
[that will definitely alter shift points somewhat. If not that, what
[about the governor? Lastly, have you checked the pressure on the trans
[via a gauge?
- No shims ...just the procedure in the Tran Go No Yo-yo (or should it say "No
Go Go?") kit, which involves there "Bootstrap TV" modification. Looks like
it simply makes it so the TV valve won't hang up.
- I did the Mike Kurtz separator plate mods (after talking to Mike) and he
talked to my trans guy to get the extra clutch packs and recommendations on
Kevlar bands and such. Gotta agree that Mike's a helluva a guy... very
knowledgable.
- However, we can't seem to find this bug. The next step is to get a gauge on
the tranny ... maybe this weekend.
- The governor is brand new, as is the valve body, seperator plate, etc. BTW,
Chuck's tranny, with the same kit is doing the exact same thing and we
swapped governors on it (thinking the same thing you were, bad governor) and
it does the same thing.
[email protected] (Jay Carter)
gnttype 22 Jun 1995
- If you back the detent pressure way off (lower it) does the trans ever shift
or does it just stay in first? My trans stuck in first last time at the
track and we pulled the valve body and found the TV Upshift valve to be
sticking. Anyway, my problem now is similar to yours. The trans will shift
one the 1-2 but it's at much higher RPMs than the other two shifts. Also,
it's a WHOLE LOT SOFTER than the other two. I have done as you did. I
modified my plate as per Mike K's instructions but this trans has an Art
Carr shift kit in it. I also pulled the valve body out of my old trans (The
one with the sticking TV valve) and installed it and it still does the same
thing. This means the trans shift crappy with a known good valve body. I'm
gonna look into the servo next. This trans in the car now has a larger servo
from a regular 200. I know this works as I have used it before, but I also
ran into a snag several years ago with this same servo causing the same
symptoms after some valve body modifications. I just can't seem to remember
what caused it though. I do remember that I put a stock servo back in and
the problem vanished so I am hoping that maybe that will be the case here.
BTW, if all else fails, call TCI and talk to Greg Friend. I have known Greg
a long time and I'm telling you, he's the man when it comes to this stuff.
He designs all of TCIs manual valve bodies (Including the GN one).
[email protected]
gnttype 22 Jun 1995
- [...If you back the detent pressure way off (lower it) does the trans ever
[shift or does it just stay in first?
- It shifts if you back it way off ... once in awhile. If you only go to 7/8
throttle it'll shift (albeit at 5700 rpm!).
- It does this IN ANY GEAR, not just 1->2.
- [...o with this same servo causing the same symptoms after some valve
[body modifications. I just can't seem to remember what caused it though
- Boy, if the servo is the problem, lemme know! That wouldn't be too bad to
fix. RIght now the damn thing won't upshift from 1->2 or 2->3 without
hitting the rev limiter. Actually it won't upshift AT ALL at WOT. It
drives fine at anything up to about 3/4 throttle though.
- [...and talk to Greg Friend. I have known Greg a long time and I'm telling
[you, he's the man when it comes to this stuff.
- Thanks! I've talked to him before... sharp guy.
Edward Hugh Welbon
gnttype 22 Jun 1995
- A road racing addict comes out of closet...
- One draw back (IMHO) that I have encountered in using a shift kit is that it
makes cornering at the limits a little trickier. The last thing you want
when you are accelerating out of the apex of a corner is an abrupt 1-2 or 2-
3 shift. It can throw the balance of the car off (tail wagging). The
closer you are to edge of the grip of the rubber the worse the consequences
can be (the idea is to get the front and back ends as close to peak grip as
possible.
- An abrupt power input can push you over the sweet spot into a not so sweet
spot of the grip curve. The shift kit with street rubber can even make a
simple passing operation interesting (especially with a tight posi - I guess
it look and sounds impressive to the pass-ee, but it ain't no fun for the
pass-er). Sideways at any speed was it?
- An abrupt down shift while braking into a corner is not a good thing either,
that can put the tail first also. I think that you want a smooth, precise
shift, not an abrupt shift. In an automatic, a broad power band with quick
spool up is seems to be a major plus. When you throttle steer the back end,
you don't want to have to guess at how much throttle is enough.
- So this leads me to a question, I find modulating the throttle around a
corner with a turbo having a just the right amount of spool up time to be a
little troublesome, a little too much throttle and you get a big power delta
- not good. A light touch on the throttle helps (squeeze rather than jab)
but this reduces the margin for driver error a lot.
- I was wondering if a sneeze valve might help, my reasoning is that when the
throttle closes, the sneeze valve would vent off the boost somewhat and help
prevent the turbo from spinning down due to abrupt air flow changes.
[email protected] (MICHAEL W. SMITH)
gnttype 23 Jun 1995
- shift points are controlled by 1.the govenor 2. tv pressure which is then
mtv pressure. mtv pressure is sent to the 12,2-3,3-4 shift valves. the
govenor spins the weights around ap-pling pressure to the check ball(s)
located in the govenor shaft. the pressure from the govenor is direct line
pressure. once the pressure is up it overrides the lower pressure of the
shift valve and causes the vehicle to shift. 1-2 shift firmness is
controled by the 1-2 accumalator, a stronger spring increases shift
firmness. the 3-4 accumalator controls the 3-4 shift firmness the same as
1-2 acc. the 2-3 shift firmness is controlled by the servo acting as a
accumalator. a lot of people swap the 2004-r servo for the old 200, but
i've seen it bread 3rd gear clutches.
- i had a problem of the overreving of the engine to make it have a 1-2 shift.
i got a new seperator plate, put the check balls in the proper stock
locations and it worked fine. make sure you trans. is a b-r-f trans. your
valve body should have a spot of pink or yellow paint on it. the gn valve
body is a special unit for gn only.
[email protected] (Jay Carter)
gnttype 24 Jun 1995
- Well, finally, after a week of struggling with the trans from my car, my
woes are over. I installed a 9" converter with this trans and disaster, the
car shifted like it had marshmellows for tranny fluid. Anyway, after
numerous patching attempts, we finally pulled it out and did it the way it
should have been done to begin with. Here's what we did to correct the
problem. I don't know exactly WHAT cured it, but one of the things did. We
tore the trans down far enough to get the band and clutch pack out. We
replaced the band and some of the clutches. While the case was empty, we
helicoiled some *questionable* valve body bolt holes thinking we may have an
internal leak somewhere. Anyway, after all this, we reassembled the insides
and I used a different 1-2 servo that we had laying around. the last 3
digits on the servo cover are 134. These servos are from a regular 200 (Late
70s model, LARGE cars, like Caddys). This servo has a HUGE apply area..
Anyway, to make a long story short, the thing shifts like a champ. This is
the best trans I have ever had with a 9" converter. If it still had a lockup
in it, it would shift hard enough to break things. So, at the moment, I'm
happy..... Now I just gotta get that TE-63-1.... :-) BTW, another problem we
discovered was that the TV Upshift valve was binding. This is the valve that
everyone tells you to remove the spring from when you install a shift kit.
If you're having trouble with the car not wanting to shift, this is the
first place I would look. Anyone that's interested in a bench overhaul, e-
mail me. My buddy Nelson said he would do some as time permits. No trannys
with problems, please. Just transmissions that need overhauling. Nelson can
build them but he's no transmission guru like Mike Kurtz.
[email protected]
gnttype 30 Jun 1995
- >i have heard that flaring between gears is causes by insufficent fluid
>pressure to hold the 2nd gear band on the drum. the fix is suppose to be a
>stiffer spring in the line bias valve located in the valve body.
- Art Carr has a new valve that will solve that 2-3 flare, I can't remember
the part number but if you describe your problem to them they can get you
the correct valve.
[email protected]
gnttype 30 Jun 1995
- Well folks ... I need a shoulder to cry on. We're still fighting a problem
with my tranny. Actually, this is quite a tale of woe, so stick with me
<*Grin*>
- I pulled the valve body out last weekend and have been methodically
disassembling it and double checking the Trans Go No Yo Yo instructions (or
should we say "No Go Go?"). Chuck and Keith came over last night and I
finished checking the last valve ... and viola! The kit said to keep the
stock spring for GNs and Monte SSs, yet I see a RED spring (left over from
my B&M kit) in the line bias valve. All right!
- I double/triple checked the TV valve assembly and everything is just like it
says it should be in the instructions. We felt that maybe we had found our
problem and reassembled the valve body and put it back in the tranny, filled
it with fluid, and off I go on a test drive.
- Sh*t. Same symptoms ... no 1->2 or 2->3 gear change under WOT. And now
even part throttle shifts are delayed a bit (like the TV cable is adjusted
wrong). Argggggh! And to top it off, no 3->4 shift at all ... (although
that may be due to a binding 3->4 accumulator spring ... they are a b*tch to
put together on your back trying to hold the valve body in place with the
spring trying to through it all back in your face.
- To add insult to injury ... Chuck's car lost 2nd gear and up until that
happened, it had the same symptoms as mine. He's basically given up and
obtained a new/rebuilt tranny from the Delaware guys. They sent the tranny
to him and he got it yesterday all excited that he was getting the car back
on the road.... WRONG.
- The tranny had obviously been dropped off the truck somewhere along the way.
The tail shaft was all bunged up and the case is cracked in a couple places.
- Man, we can't win for losing! Anyway ... any brilliant ideas out there on
why my d*mn tranny won't shift under WOT? It acts like it's in the TV
system, to me. Too much pressure? Too little?
- I've got to drop the valve body again this weekend and I'm almost to the
point where I'm going to pitch all the Trans Go stuff, restore everything to
stock and then come forward with the B&M kit again. Problem is, I have to
get all the stock takeouts back from my tranny guy and I'm not sure if he
still has them.
- What a nightmare! I'm pretty confident the car is going to run a nice
number ... it pulls like a demon on street gas and low boost (14psi for
testing the tranny to try to keep tire spin down). I'm pretty sure that I
should be able to post a low 11 time slip if I can get it sorted out. HELP!
[email protected]
gnttype 03 Jul 1995
- [check to make sure you did'nt install the upshift valve backwards.
- You mean the TV Upshift valve? According to the kit instructions, it's not
changed. The kit does change the TV downshift valve spring, but I double
checked it and it looks good. I pulled the upshift valve just to check and
it looks just like what the chassis manual and the kit instructions say it
should. Thanks for suggestion, I'll double check when I yank the valve body
<*sigh, again*>.
- I suspect something either in the governor circuit or the TV upshift
circuit, but I'll be d*mned if I can find it. Mike Kurtz has suggested a
governor change to an '84-85 car governor (bigger wieghts, due to the
different calibration of the older valve body). That might change the
symptoms and give us an idea of what to try next. I'm looking for one to
borrow for a test now.
[email protected]
gnttype 03 Jul 1995
- >To each his own! Both point of views have their merits. I am a bit of a
>purist when it comes to these cars but I would switch the trans.
- I was going to do the same thing. I read an article in HOT ROD or one of
those, about swapping the 200 for a 400 and adding on an overdrive unit.
Well I talked to Pat Barrett of Level 10 Automatics, he told me if I was in
the 8's then go for it. As far as the 12's whrere I was he told me to stick
with the 200R4. He told me he could build it strong enough to take me to the
9's. I told him I've had this f*ing thing recuilt 5 times by shops that were
in to "high tech" rebuilds. He gauranteed me it would last "forever" as long
as I added a cooler. Ok, I shelled out $1200 for the trans and $600 for the
9" lockup convertor. I am an idiot right?? I dont think so, a stock trans
job is $1500 so what do I have to lose. I got the car back and WOW, chirped
second, thoird, and bangred fourth!!! A real improvement. Well its two years
later and other than a cold flair (Pat has advised me that it is due to the
kevlar band flexing at a different rate when cold, I thought a sticking
accumulator but I dont realluy know transes.) It still chirps 2nd, 3rd, and
bangs fourth!! A lot better than the 5 other $1500 rebuilds, and I have the
low first gear and overdrive AND lockup!! (BTW you should not defeat the
lockup as if the car is running hot the ECM locks up the convertor so full
volume of the ATF is run through the trans cooler, to protect the trans!)
[email protected] (Jay Carter)
gnttype 04 Jul 1995
- >Mine was a shot thrust bearing. Worn so bad the drain slots were filed
>flat!!!!
- You wouldn't happen to have an Art Carr 9" converter installed in your car
by and chance would you? I know of many people (Me included) who have lost
engines thanks to good 'ole Uncle Art. The converter baloons and takes out
the thrust.... Art claims this problem is nonexistent, however, it's funny
that he just came out with a new 9" converter that has a baloon plate.....
[email protected]
gnttype 08 Jul 1995
- Well, another weekend, another bunch of experiments ...
- I put the car up, disassembled the servo and replaced the seals and made
sure everything matched what the Trans Go kit said it should.
- No change, still won't shift WOT ... the car is an animal though! <*Grin*>
- Next experiment ... pulled the pan, pulled the governor case (all passages
looked good), swapped in an '85 governor (which should have lowered shift
points about 800 RPM.).
- No change, none at all. The part throttle shifts were the same (and should
be since the primary weight is the same as the '86-87). Still no shift at
WOT.
- This all leads me back to a) pump or b) valve body. Tomorrow I'm going to
get me a guage and do some plumbing to check pressures. This should give me
some idea of other things to check. Also, I'm going to see if Chuck will
loan me the VB out of his $1000 wonder. <*sigh*> And so it goes ...
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 18 Jul 1995
- >I am helping to rebuild the tranny from an 85 T this week and we have one
>problem - we can't figure out which way to put in the accumulator that goes
>above the separator plate (between the plate and the tranny case). Does
>anyone know if the spring goes in first or the piston?
- This was discussed (at excruciating length, I'm afraid) last fall, I
believe. There was no complete concensus. The TRs appear to have the spring
and accumulator 'backward' from what all other TH200-4Rs do. However, the
B&M kit indicates that it should be reversed (*with_their_kit*) if it is
'backward'. (i.e. put it like all other 200-4Rs)
- > The pictures in the manual show both ways so one of them must be wrong.
- Uh...maybe. :-)
[email protected]
gnttype 06 Aug 1995
- Well, got the tranny back in the car with the valve body that David Day lent
me.... The car SHIFTS now!
- I put a new accumulator in it (with the feed holes unblocked), stock VB,
stock separator plate, stock check balls, etc. Now the car shifts!
- However .... the 1->2 shift is pretty soft, and the 2->3 tends to allow an
overrev before it "catches". I have a guage on it and read it the best I
could (with the tires spinning and the car sideways .. <*grin*>).
- Pressure was like this at1000 RPM:
Park/Neutral - 75-80 psi
Reverse - 140 psi
Drive (D4) - 100 psi
Drive (D3) - 105 psi
2nd - 130-140 psi
1st - 130-140 psi
- When driving it, the pressure goes up to 170 or so in the low gears. At
idle with maximum TV (pulling the cable), the pressure doesn't change much
from the min. TV pressures! Something seems to be screwy with the pressure
regulation/pump.
- The car shifts 1-2 at about 5200 and the 2-3 occurs about 5000. Problem is,
the 1-2 shift is sloppy (kind of a slide shift) and 2-3 hangs, overrevs and
then drops into gear. Wierd.
- I've just about convinced myself to just get the GM BRF remanufactured trans
with the 3 yr./50,000 mile warranty, swap the input shaft and hardened
stator out of mine, put a simple kit (Fairbanks or B&M) in it and call it
good. Or have Ralph's transmissions or Mike Kurtz do the valve body stuff
for me.
- I could be messing around with getting this one sorted out for another 2
months ... and racing season is almost over! I definitely want to get the
car out when the weather breaks and cools off. I want my low 11s and 120
mph thru the muffs! Besides ... in about 2 years, I pull the new GM rebuilt
and turn it in under warranty and start over again <*grin*> At that time,
I'll have somebody go thru it and put all the good stuff in it and keep it.
- Anyway, I want to quit FIXING the damn car and get back to making it go fast
and look good. I've got a dozen little detail things I want to do and I
need to work on getting a few squeaks and rattles from my new roll bar
worked out. <*sigh*> So, any thoughts?
[email protected]
gnttype 12 Aug 1995
- You mentioned that there was a *visible* difference between the valve body
in the GN and a diesel or whatever other 2004R you compared it to. Can
you give me any *specific* differences that you noted so that I can do a
similar comparison?
- I just installed my SECOND GM-rebuilt 2004R, code "BRF" and it has a 1-2
shift like a Park Avenue , just like the first one. A complete and total
dog. It is TV-adjusted, and full of Delco ATF to no avail. It is a
fresher unit than the first one, with the correct 36 month/50,000 mile over
the counter warranty paperwork. Built in June 1995.
- I suspect that the sales rep who told the Parts Manager that there were no
replacement parts for the GN trannys available and that they were all built
that way may have been right after all.
- Anyway, I got my original core back and gave them another 2004R. I will
probably have to go to Kurtz after all. My fear is that to get GM to make
things right here ( ie.refund) I will need to provide hard evidence that
they are giving me the wrong parts. If they get ugly about it ,which they
haven't yet, I may need to slap down the two valve bodies and spacer plates
in front of them.
- I am really tired of swapping these 212-pound beasts in and out! I went
with GM just to avoid these problems! Go figure! And Mike Kurtz is like 2
miles away from me!
Gerry Bragg
gnttype 12 Aug 1995
- >After having myself tried the Yo-Yo shift kit the B(reak)&M(end) shift
>kit and having work done ot the local (good) tranny guy shop, I got
>smart and sent my trans to Mike Kurtz 2 1/2 years ago. Today it still
>shifts like a champ. My horror stories involve shipping the trans.
>.....
>Anyone else have similar problems?
- I just went thru the exact same ordeal. In mid-June my trans blew it's
front seal (& lots of metal) in a remote part of northern michigan, far from
Mr. UPS. It was more expensive, but convenient to ship it via overland
carrier (Roadway, Central Transport, etc..). Trip down took 4 (business)
days from Michigan to Mike Kurtz's shop in Houston. The return trip via UPS
was something else. Took 12 BUSINESS days to arrive (was supposed to take
4). Torque converter arrived 5 days before the trans (shipped the same
day). UPS had no record of a 2nd package being shipped. However, the same
day I put a tracer on it the trans showed up. UPS still had no clue where it
was. Overland carrier cost about $80 more than UPS from Michigan-Houston.
Using a pallet and overland carrier would be best. I boxed the trans and
strapped the box to a pallet. I've been told that UPS is very rough with
their materials. If you use them insure it for $2500.
- Out of the box the trans lasted 50 miles. Govenor launched it's check balls
and speedometer gear. Found it had an '84-'85 govenor in it. Kurtz re-uses
the govenor if it is still good, but it's easy to distinguish the two so
this should've been caught (84-85 have a small spring on the large weight.
86-87 have none). Was always wondering why after my 20,000 mile rebuild by
a local shop the 1-2 shift was a bit early. After getting the proper TV
(this trans is very sensitive to TV changes) setting tuned out the trans
works great. Smooth light throttle shifts and progressively firmer. 3-4
seems fairly firm regardless of TV setting. Just wish the damn thing wasn't
so expensive but it's light years better than the previous rebuild job.
- Scott: make sure you blow the cr*p out of the lines and cooler(s) before re-
installing. I found that it is very difficult to get all of the junk
dislodged from the coolers by just using an air-compressor, carb cleaner,
and trans fluid. [may not be as much of a concern if your trans didn't
grenade like mine]. If I did it again I'd get a new external cooler ($70)
and have the internal cooler in the radiator replaced (was quoted $50 for
this).
[email protected]
gnttype 18 Aug 1995
- After trying two of the GM SRTA rebuilds, I finally went to Mike Kurtz with
the Transmission from my '87 GN. I grenaded the stator of the stock 12"
converter and sent metal schrapnel throughout the unit.
- The first GM "BRF" shifted like a sissy and was *nothing* like the unit that
came in the car when new. I took it to the dealer and his tranny guy
checked it out and said it was defective.
- OK, I'll try another one and since the first had the "old" 12/12 warranty
maybe it was just from a bad batch.
- Transmission #2 arrived 8 days later (called VIP service for some unknown
reason!) and it shifted just like the first one, only with a bit of a flare
at the 2-3 shift. It had the new Goodwrench 36 month/50,000 mile warranty.
Would have been the best deal around for $850 including the converter. They
just need to learn to build them right.
- On the positive side, the dealer held on to my core, and fully refunded my
money. I bought the rebuilt converter from him since they were the correct
units with high stall.
- Transmission #3 A Mike Kurtz Rebuild. I got a 6000 mile warranty rather
than the usual 6-months because I have several cars and don't put alot of
mileage on them. Ahhhh! Now this transmission shifts gears. $985 plus tax
and converter.
- The "normal" TV cable adjustment gives good hard shifts with plenty of tire
squeal at the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. Even the converter lockup has snap!
Best to back the TV cable off a couple of notches for daily driving and
dates! At WOT it shifts *great*.
- Just some facts and observations about the rebuild and other information
from talking with Mike
Use Dexron Fluid, no mention of overfilling
He puts sealant on the front of the filter
Uses a Transgo shift kit, but makes some modifications to their
instructions such as drilling the spacer plate holes a different size
than specified, as well as leaving out and/or modifying some of the
spring parts.
Uses Art Carr Bands (& clutches?) "Art Carr makes some killer parts"
He also removes a check ball from the converter lockup hydraulics for a
more solid TCC lock up.
- What I learned to do really well is R&R GN transmissions on my back after
doing it (by myself) 3 times in 3 weeks. Picked up the Kurtz rebuild at
4:00 and was driving at 8:00. Practice makes perfect! Anyway, if you are
going to do one, cut this out and it will save you some time hunting
wrenches since these cars have metric and standard fasteners mixed.
------------------------------------snip-------------------------------
- 1987 GN 200-R4 Transmission R&R Nuts and Bolts
U-Joint 7/16"
Shift Linkage Nut 15mm
Bell Housing to Block 9/16" (but 14mm even better) Torque is 35 ft-lbs
Cross Member to Frame and Tranny (all of 'em) 15mm
TV Cable to Trans 10mm
Speedo Cable to X-member 10mm
Torque Converter Bolts 15mm Torque to 45 ft-lbs (or more imho)
Flexplate Cover 10mm
Cooler Lines 13mm (1/2" tubing wrenches will work)
Cat Converter Heat Shield to Floorpan 9/32"
--------------------------------------snip-----------------------------
[email protected]
gnttype 26 Aug 1995
- Well, as many of you know, I've been fighting transmission gremlins
continuously since last winter. I'm happy (ecstatic actually) to say that
they seem to be on the ropes now. I took the car out last night and
listened to the poor tortured tires howl through several gears (with only 14
psi of boost!).
- Here's a chronicle of this misadventure:
* This winter I pulled the tranny out to replace the converter. The
converter had lost the lockup clutches (wonder why, eh? <*grin>). I
decided that as long as I had it out, I might just as well get it
freshened up, so I took it to the same guy who had freshened it up a
couple years ago successfully.
- He looked at it and declared the 3rd gear clutches to be toast and had
talked to the folks at Trans Go about it. They suggested he use their kit
to solve the problem. While he was at it, he machined the backing plate
for an extra clutch pack, freshened everything up, installed the kit and
we put it in the car. Car shifted great ... until Wide Open Throttle
(WOT). No shift ... just bumped the rev limiter.
- Out came the tranny ...
* A call to Trans Go and they recommended their new Stage II kit. My tranny
guy was game, so in went this kit. Back in the car it goes ... and now I
had a completely manual tranny. I had to shift in and out of gear by hand
and it slipped in all gears. Something was amiss!
- Out came the tranny ....
- Turns out that the kit involved drilling holes in the actual valve body
making it impossible to back the kit out. A new correct turbo Regal valve
body (coded BR) is almost $500! Ouch! My tranny guy got a new valve
body, installed the original Trans Go kit, made a couple modifications and
the tranny went back in the car.
- This time, I put a new converter in the car (the replacement for the one
that I burned the clutches out in). I put the tranny in and when I
started the car <*snap*> the front pump broke!
- Out came the tranny ....
* The converter was examined and it appears the snout was out of round,
which broke the pump. My tranny guy put in a new pump and the tranny went
back in the car. It shifted fine at part throttle (pretty hard though),
but we were back to no upshift at WOT.
- I pulled the valve body and pressure regulator valve out and carefully
examined EVERYTHING. I double checked the kit instructions, check balls,
springs, etc. and found the incorrect line bias spring. AH HA! I
thought. Reassembled the tranny and ... same results, no WOT.
- Out came the tranny ...
* I talked to Mike Kurtz several times and he very kindly spent time on the
phone with me trying to figure out what the heck was going on. At his
suggestion ...
- Out came the governor ....
* I tried an '84-85 governor, which should have lowered the shift points
approximately 500-800 RPM. Same thing ... no WOT shift.
- Out came the valve body ...
* Tried to back out the Trans Go kit. Shifts got worse ...
- Out came the valve body ...
* Tried different configuration for the separator plate. No differences.
- Out came the valve body ....
* Went back to the stock governor. No dice ...
- Out came the valve body ...
* David Day (from Illinois, a friend from the Nationals) had been talking me
through some of his transmission rebuild experiences. He had rebuilt his
tranny by himself and really seems to have a handle on the inner workings
of these transmissions.
- He offered to loan me a brand new stock valve body that he had. I snapped
up the opportunity. When it arrived, I pulled the valve body out of my
car and set it side by side with the BR valve body that Dave sent me.
Hmmmm ... that's different ... and that ... and that! The more I looked,
the more I found that the two valve bodies were NOT the same thing!
Several small differences were apparent, especially in the Throttle Valve
assembly. On the side of the valve body in my tranny you could barely see
the OM3 paint. I looked this up and it turns out it is out of a diesel
Oldsmobile!
- I documented all the stock springs color, length and diameter. Then I
installed Dave's valve body. Viola! Mushy shifts, but at least it
shifted! I decided to put a pressure gauge on the tranny to see what the
heck is going on. I bought a welding pressure gauge (reads to 400 psi), a
gauge installation kit for an oil pressure gauge, and proceeded to try to
remove the plug in the side of the tranny to install the gauge. I used a
good quality 6 sided socket and couldn't BUDGE it! To make a long story
short, I ended up rounding it, tried to drill it out but couldn't get
enough angle on it with the tranny in the car ... so ...
- Out came the tranny ....
* After drilling out the plug (it had been installed with Loc-Tite) and
rethreading the hole, I installed a gauge and reinstalled the tranny. The
pressures I was getting were on the low side of acceptable and the tranny
was sl-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ding into 3rd gear. This was getting old ...
- After a severe bout of soul searching, I decided to order a GM Service
Replacement Transmission Assembly (SRTA). The 3 year/50,000 mile warranty
was VERY tempting after this saga! The new tranny arrived and ...
- Out came the old tranny....
* I put a shift kit (the old standby B&M Trans Pak set at the "Street"
level) in the new tranny and installed the new tranny in the car. Once it
was installed, I filled it up with fluid, fired up the car on the jack
stands, and the wheels went round and round! Oh happy day!
- Unfortunately, when putting the tranny in the car, I snagged the shifter
cable on the jack and broke it, so I had to wait a couple days before Eric
could get one it for me. When it came in, I pulled the console, replaced
the cable, reassembled everything, and lowered the car from the jack
stands. It looked unnatural, since it had spend almost the entire winter
and summer on the jack stands <*Grin*>
- I fired the car up, put it in reverse and .... nothing. The car wouldn't
MOVE! Put it in drive and after a second or two it would move. It seemed
to get better as I rolled down the driveway, so I thought that it might be
due to a sticky check ball (installed with Vaseline). I got to the end of
the block and jumped on it for a split second. The revs instantly jumped
to 6000 grand plus (and the rev limiter cut in), so I backed off. As I
backed off I
[data lost]
- I limped back to the garage and pulled the passenger's side valve cover to
find a broken rocker arm *shaft*! The far back end had broken about 3/4
of the way through and was loosely holding the rocker arm. It had broke
right where the bolt holds it to the head. Wow ... that was weird. It
must have happened just when I let off ... the valve must have floated a
bit and the transition caught it wrong and broke it. Everything else
looked fine, so I fished around in my spare parts bins and assembled
another rocker shaft, put it on the car. Problem solved. Now I was just
back to tranny problems <*sigh*>
- Off came the pan ....
* I had been thinking about the symptoms all the next day, and had come to
the conclusion that the pressure regulator valve must be sticking or
incorrectly installed. I called Eric and asked him if he had a new TV
valve bushing (part of the regulator assembly) and he told me he didn't
have one, but would order one. I figured I'd just pull the old regulator
out of the original tranny for now. I got home and found that Eric had
stopped by and dropped off a valve assembly in my door! What a pal!
- I jacked the car up, drained the fluid, and dropped the pan. As I lowered
the pan, I heard something metallic rolling around in the bottom. Sure
enough, the entire pressure regulator assembly (spring and all) was in the
pan! Also, there was half of a snap ring. I looked up in the bore of the
tranny case and there was the other half!
- I got a new snap ring and assembled the pressure regulator with the new
parts from Eric and put it back in the tranny. I made doubly sure that
the snap ring was seated firmly and correctly before calling it a success.
I put the pan back on, filled it with fluid, dropped the car off the
stands and VIOLA! The car backed out of the garage fine and I drove off
down the road!
- The shifts were quick and firm, but not jarring. After putzing around and
checking up and downshifts, I finally got the courage up and jumped on it
from a 30 mph roll. The tires howled, but it was pulling .... in a flash
it hit 5200 RPM and shifted ... a nice quick shift and the tires continued
to howl ... 2nd gear ... the car is really pulling nicely ... 4800 RPM ...
shift ... again quick but not really jarring. I let up.... a HUGE grin on
my face! Now THAT's better.
- I then tried a manual 2->3 upshift under WOT. I held the car in gear
until 5300 RPM and then shift. Flawless! All right!
- So, it looks like I'm back in commission ... finally! Thanks go to David
Day, Mike Kurtz, and Ralph of Ralph's Transmissions (a recommendation from
the Source) for the time spent on the phone with me.
[email protected] (Mike Pitts)
gnttype 27 Aug 1995
- >We rebuilt the entire tranny and swapped out my Art Carr 9 inch (the low
>stall version) for a high stall 12 inch lockup unit. This tranny really
>shifts. I had no idea a 200 could hit third so hard, even at part throttle
>when the boost is building quick. Although I lost a little bottem end with
>the 12 inch, the midrange and top-end are improved. I also am getting 40%
>better gas milage. This tranny should last a bit longer since it is
>shifting so well and has a lockup to keep the heat down.
- What's a "low stall" version 9"? I had a 16930. I never measured the
stall, but on another list member's car it's getting 4000RPM stall. Flash
stall I would guess. What did your "low stall" version get? How much you
sellin' for?
- I saw the same difference in milage between the non-lockup vs. the lockup
converter. But, you do give up *alot* of nice low-end, turbo-lagless
performance by going back to the lockup type. My trans temp went from 205-
215F to 150F by going back to a lockup as well, which in turn, took some
heat off the motor. The other day on a 4 hr. long hual to Tampa I hit a
rainstorm and the trans temp dipped all the way down to 135F! Cool!
Literally! :) And yes, I ran a big trans cooler with the 9".
[email protected]
gnttype 05 Sep 1995
- [...The TCC solenoid really does not have any moving parts so I don't think
[it will stick. (There is a check ball that is held by the coil's magnet but
[it does not move very much) It is more likely that the converter clutch
[apply valve in the pump will stick and cause the converter to stay locked
- Picky, picky .. <*Grin*> But it's much easier to say that the solenoid
"sticks", since it is the guilty part. I've seen 3 or 4 go bad around here
(not all in TRs either).
- [... If the converter remains locked, the car will stall out just as if you
[dumped the clutch in a manual tranny as you come to a stop
- True, but most of the time the failure is intermittent. Sometimes it'll
cause a stall, but more often it locks early and bogs the car.
- [...I'm still confused as to why the converter lock up would affect how/when
[the tranny shifts??? I don't think it has anything to do with it.
- Well, a locked converter definitely affects the shift points. It normally
will lower them a couple hundred RPM, since the converter is no longer
"slipping". And if you've ever manually locked a converter and driven it,
you know that the car shifts with a jerk from gear to gear and will really
drop the RPMs on the shift especially at part throttle (again, no torque
multiplication).
- [...The original problem described does seem to be heat related but I don't
[see the converter being the problem
- <*shrug*> Whatever...I'd lay my money on the TCC solenoid.
[email protected]
gnttype 07 Sep 1995
- [... The converter apply valve can/should also be checked at the same time.
[It is located above the solenoid and is held in by a disk with a hold in it
[and a snap ring.
- Yep ... familiar with that procedure. I'm more of a tranny expert now than
I EVER wanted to be .... the new SRTA unit seems to work great with the Tran
Pack installed.
- BTW, I wasn't having the problem ... but your procedure should help whoever
was ALOT! If you want, you could reformat this and send it to me via email
and I'll get it in the tech directory.
- [...How does it "know" when the car is in 2nd gear?
- It probably just locks the converter ... a correctly operating TCC won't
lock in first gear no matter what. Then the converter will lock right after
the shift. That's how a manual switch works too..... you can lock it up at
the line, the car launches normally, shifts, then the converter locks.
- Kind of hard on converter clutches though. I've found with the TA62 that
you need to let the converter work until 3rd gear and then let the chip lock
it (Red's chip does it at about 75 mph). That keeps the RPMs up a bit and
the boost up.
- [...Do not say from the 2nd gear switch in the valve body as there is no
[such animal.
- Nope ... only a 3rd gear switch (back of VB) and a fourth gear switch
(bottom of the VB). Again, I think that it is simply sending a lock up
signal to the TCC when the car is moving and TPS is > x%. ... or if it is
more sophisticated, it looks at MPH vs RPM vs. TPS to guess where 2nd gear
is.
Richard May
gnttype 10 Sep 1995
- Well I finally got around to installing the 3-speed 200 single piece servo
unit into my 200-4R. WOW! These shifts are nice! I had the same Gil
Younger kit as Ken. Like Ken's, mine was coming out since it didn't do very
much for me. Most of the problems that the documentation says that the
2004R's have appears to have been mostly corrected by 1988 [donning
flameproof suit]. I think this is why the kit didn't have much effect in my
particular application. One problem that the kit *caused* was a 2-3 overlap
(bindup). I think the earlier 2004R's had a problem with flaring on the 2-
3... in my application the kit overcompensated and 3rd was applying before
the 2nd gear band was out of the way. I tried to correct by removing the
shims from the factory servo unit in order to increase 2nd band clearance.
This helped a little but softened the 1-2 as a side effect (not good).
- This cool new one piece jobbie was a direct drop in. I simply installed it
and the cover (without the factory return spring...there is no recess for
it). The 1-2 is instant at light throttle and fairly quick at WOT. The 2-3
is fairly abrupt, too (still a tiny bit of overlap). Overall, I am happy
enough not to tear the valve body apart again. After studying the new one
piece apply unit, I believe that it could be improved somewhat by pulling
the e-clip off the top, a placing a shim under the accum. spring and re-
assembling it. Unlike the factory part, shimming the spring has *no effect*
on the overall length of the assembly and thus no effect on 2nd band
clearance. I think adding a shim would reduce the accumulation action of
the piston for a better 1-2 and it also would help a 2-3 bindup since the
piston can more effectively force fluid back out of the cavity. Maybe
somebody with real guts might try a piece of pipe under the piston in place
of the spring... Next comes the type F fluid ...
"RGS::FREDRICKS"
gnttype 14 Sep 1995
- On September 1 I posted this problem:
> For the first 15-20 minutes of normal driving, my 200-4R shifts
> just fine. After that period, it up shifts too early, it also
> down shifts too late. If I put the hammer down, it will down shift,
> but makes an extremely hard shift.
- Jeff, Ken, Chris and Jim all agreed that the Torque Converter Clutch
solenoid was the best place to start. I ordered part number 8639900 and was
charged $47.40 for the part. Yesterday, I got the solenoid, a filter kit, 6
quarts of Dexron III ATF and a large pan. In about 3 hours, I replaced the
solenoid and so far my tranny is working just fine.
- Jeff suggested that I attempt to "blow thru" the solenoid. I found that I
could blow thru the new solenoid, but not thru my old one.
- Chris suggested that I check the converter apply value located above the
solenoid for sticking. He also suggested that I remove and clean the value
and also add a drain plug to the pan.
- I don't own the tool needed to remove the snap ring that holds the value in
place, but I carefully checked the value and chose not remove and clean it.
Adding a drain plug is a good idea, but I also lack the fabrication tools
for this job. I just suffer the mess on the floor and in my hair.
- Ken mentioned that the replacement procedure was straight forward:
> This is a simple fix that involves dropping the pan, pulling the solenoid
> (two bolts .. it's at the front of the case), splicing in the new one,
> bolting it in, replace pan, fill with fluid, and viola!
- It was even easier. There was no need to splice in the new one, the
replacement part included the wiring to the connector and 3rd and 4th gear
sensors.
- The job could be done in an hour, it actually took me three. I took extra
care in cleaning the pan, magnet, bolts and the sealing surface on the
transmission. Those who are pulling their pans for the first time may want
to clean the pan gasket sealant from the transmission. That will take more
time. Since I'd cleaned it off a few months ago, I saved a bit of time.
- I had a small problem with the old filter, the seal stayed behind in the
tranny. It was preventing the filter from seating properly. I used a
dentist's pick to remove it. Without the old seal, the filter fit properly.
- I drove the car for an hour after replacing the solenoid, it worked just
fine. I also took it to work this morning without any problem. So far so
good.
David Cooley
gnttype 17 Sep 1995
- >Coincidence? Last weekend I drove back to Level 10 and Pat installed a 9
>inch 3400 lockup (NO CHARGE!). The car is a monster on the bottom now but
>the part throttle shifts are not tire screeching. The convertor is not
>locking again!
- >The following is what I have checked:
>1) Scanner shows correct computer TCC activation.
>2)Grounding ALDL has no effect.
>3)Voltmeter shows 12v and a good ground at the tranny connector. I checked
> the bottom left pin of the connector with the ALDL grounded and I had a
> ground.
>4)TCC not locking with the tranny connector manually grounded full time.
>5)Changed TCC solenoid today to a new one that Pat sent.
>6)checked valve under solenoid by pushing up into it. It snapped back so I
> assume it is not stuck.
- >Since it is a 2 hour ride to Level 10 I was hoping to diagnose this myself.
> Pat is very professional and will do whatever is neccessary to fix the
>non-lockup situation I am just wondering what it could be. I would have
>thought that it was a defective convertor but the first one did not lock
>for a few days and then started locking. I watched the installation of the
>9 inch and nothing was disturbed so I am baffled why it is not locking
>again. If anyone has any ideas please let me know.
- When he did the rebuild etc, did he remove the checkball in the end of the
input shaft? If not, it could have gotten a piece of crud in it and be
plugged.. That would keep it from locking.. Also, there are a couple o-ring
type seals on the input shaft to keep fluid in the proper locations in the
converter.. If one of these o-rings tore when the converter went on, that
would keep it from locking as well.
[email protected] (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
gnttype 19 Sep 1995
- I got some info on a throttle valve for the 200-4r that is sopossed to help
firm up the shifts like a shift kit but can be installed in 30 minutes. Is
this the same thing Kirban is selling? If so, has anyone used one? Is it
nothing more then another way of adjusting the tv cable without actually
adjusting it? It is available in 2
sizes. .500 to firm up the shifts and .521 for heavy duty firming of the
shifts. Any comments?
[email protected]
gnttype 28 Oct 1995
- [....It has ">40" stamped on it on both sides of it (front and rear..I guess
[the stator pitch for both halves) can anyone tell me what this stands for
[and if you can..is this a stock convertor? I'm kind of pissed because I
[think it is a stock lockup worth around $125.00 when I paid for and should
[have a $700.00 9" lockup.
- A stock lockup will have "5" stamped all around the outer part of the shell.
And it will measure 11" (or 12" depending on where you measure from) ...
which you already have indicated is likely.
- You really can't tell very easily from just looking how it will stall.
However, anything more than about 2800 stall is very tough to do with the
12".
[email protected]
gnttype 08 Nov 1995
- [...Well, If I remember correclt..Ken??...the 2-3 shift is a band...but 3-4
[is band on the front drum and clutches on overrunning drum??....]
- Well, lessee... Far from being an expert (but experienced with Type F
shampoos <*Grin*>) lemme take a shot here after looking the manual ...
1st - uses clutches (lo roller, forward and overdrive roller)
2nd - applies the intermediate band and releases the lo roller
3rd - engages direct clutch and releases the band
4th - applies the 4th gear clutches, releases the overdrive roller, keeps
the direct clutch engaged and the forward clutch.
the band to the 3rd gear clutches and the the 3->4 is engaging more
clutches.
- This matches what I've always heard and assumed. The timing of the release
of the drum/band and the engagement of the clutches could be screwed up with
a leaky valve body or shot 3rd gear clutches. Also, low pressure, bad
servo, etc. could affect these things.
- Kinda sounds like the clutches are shot (and maybe the band is slipping in
between 2->3 too?).
[email protected]
gnttype 11 Nov 1995
- >1->2 shift uses the drumm/band
>2->3 goes from band to clutches
>3->4 engages more clutches
- [...I think you may be wrong here Ken, I wont insist but the 2-3 shift is a
[band.
- Well, maybe this is a miscommunication ...
- A broken band may cause all sorts of wierd things. Here's a little table
that might help show where my conclusions are coming from -
- ===========================================================================
Rnge|Gear|4th |OvrDrive|Overrun|Direct|Intrmed|Forward|Loroller|Loreverse
| |clutch| roller |clutch |clutch| Band | Clutch| Clutch| Clutch
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P-N | | | Holding| | | | | |
===========================================================================
| 1st| | Holding| | | |Applied| Holding|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 2nd| | Holding| | |Applied|Applied| |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------
OD | 3rd| | Holding| |Appl'd| |Applied| |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 4th|Appl'd| | |Appl'd| |Applied| |
===========================================================================
| 1st| | |Applied| | |Applied| Holding|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------
D | 2nd| | |Applied| |Applied|Applied| |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 3rd| | |Applied|Appl'd| |Applied| |
===========================================================================
| 1st| | |Applied| | |Applied| Holding|
2 |----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 2nd| | |Applied| |Applied|Applied| |
===========================================================================
1 | 1st| | |Applied| | |Applied| |Applied
===========================================================================
R | Rev| |Holding || |Appl'd| | | |Applied
===========================================================================
- Notice that the intermediate band is only applied in 2nd gear in all cases.
Then the 3rd gear clutchs engage and the band disengages. The direct clutch
is inside the drum assembly. Did I miss something here? Wouldn't be the
first time! <*Grin*>
- So, from the above, I get...
1->2 clutches release and band engages
2->3 band disengages and 3rd gear clutches (direct clutch) engage
3->4 4th gear clutches engage (direct clutch remains engages)
- I admit that I have the advantage of looking at the diagrams in the manual
to see how all these parts fit together and it's tough to explain all this
without the pictures. Again, I might be misinterpreting something, so can
anyone confirm or clarify this?
[email protected]
gnttype 15 Nov 1995
- [...Either my trans is diffrent than yours or mine is just screwed(not
[impossible.)
- It might be different, since your's is an '83, but I'd wonder about it. At
least the '84-87s all shift from 3rd to 4th at a little over 100 mph (about
105, in my experience). Back when the car was a pure Recipe car, I could
tell if it was going to be a good run by how far before the traps it shifted
into 4th. Way before the traps meant 108-109 mph .... just before meant
106-107.
- [...that the 200's in the other perf. G bodies will not make this shift
- Well, maybe.... since the TRs had unique valve bodies (BR code). However,
the only ones I've heard that have to be modified are the 700R4s for WOT 3-
>4 shifts. I'll do some digging on the '83 car ... it's not inconceivable
they changed things in '84.
[email protected]
gnttype 16 Dec 1995
- > I have a question that concerns the difference(s) between the '85 and
> the 86/87 200-4R transmissions. I found an '85 that was freshly rebuilt
> out of a Grand National that was wrecked. I was told that it is a
> fresh rebuild, etc., etc.
- > My problem and questions are, I have been told that the '85 trans was
> NOT as strong as the 86/87. And, if I want to use the '85, I will
> have to upgrade to 86/87 specs. Is there anyone that can tell me what
> the upgrades may consist of and or if it is required?
- I believe the *main* differences were the 10 vane pump and the accumalator
piston size. The 10 vane pump is available from most of the TR vendors and
any compotent transmission shop should be able to do the accumaltor piston
modification.
David Cooley
gnttype 16 Dec 1995
- >I believe the *main* differences were the 10 vane pump and the
>accumalator piston size. The 10 vane pump is available from most of
>the TR vendors and any compotent transmission shop should be able to
>do the accumaltor piston modification.
- The 10 vane pump wasn't factory until late in the 87 model year... 84-most
of 87 had a 7 vane P.O.S. front pump. The biggest difference between the
84/5 and 86-87 transmissions was the governor... WOT shift points are
different between them.
[email protected]
gnttype 16 Dec 1995
- [...I believe the *main* differences were the 10 vane pump and the
accumalator piston size....]
- Not really ... the 7 vane pump was in almost all of the 200-4Rs until very
late in '87. My tranny had a 7 vane and so have all the others that I've
seen.
- The valve body is different and calibrated for a different governor (which
affects the WOT shifts). As far as hard parts, they are probably
upgradable, just like the '86-87s.
Jay Carter
gnttype 16 Dec 1995
- >The 10 vane pump wasn't factory until late in the 87 model year... 84-most
>of 87 had a 7 vane P.O.S. front pump. The biggest difference between the
>84/5 and 86-87 transmissions was the governor... WOT shift points are
>different between them.
- The 1-2 servo is different as well.
[email protected] (Richard)
gnttype 17 Dec 1995
- >The 1-2 servo is different as well.
- I pulled out that damn newfangled 2nd apply servo and replaced it with a
single piece unit from a 3 speed 200. Almost completely fixed my 2-3
bindup/overlap and solidified my 1-2 drastically. Has anyone else done
this???
Jay Carter
gnttype 18 Dec 1995
- >I pulled out that damn newfangled 2nd apply servo and replaced it with a
>single piece unit from a 3 speed 200. Almost completely fixed my 2-3
>bindup/overlap and solidified my 1-2 drastically. Has anyone else done
>this???
- I have this in my tranmission as well. The only problem with this
modification is that the servo is VERY hard to find and it makes your first
1-2 shift when you start the car pretty sloppy (servo bleeds down after
sitting). The last three numbers for this servo as they appear on the cover
are 112. The inner piston's last three numbers are 334 if I remember
correctly. Also, check band clearance with this servo. Sometimes you have to
add metal to the pin to get the clearance correct depending upon the length
of the pin in the old trans.
[email protected] (Dave Schmucker)
gnttype 18 Dec 1995
- >single piece unit from a 3 speed 200. Almost completely fixed my 2-3
>bindup/overlap and solidified my 1-2 drastically. Has anyone else done
- Yes I have. I have tryed them all and the TH200 works the best/ It has the
largest apply area.
Larry Bloodworth 70530,3072
S13/For Techs Only 29-Dec-95
- You betcha. Stator support spline wear's major culprit is rough engine
idle. It hammers the splines. GM was the first to address the problem by
heat treating the splines in the later model transmissions.
Larry Bloodworth 70530,3072
S13/For Techs Only 29-Dec-95
- The mating splines in the converter are actually a hardened steel race
(sprag race) that is much like a bearing race. Although wear on these
female splines are not common, they do occur on stators that have had many
miles on a worn stator support. I would inspect the splines very carefully
through the converter hub with a flashlight. If there is any doubt, replace
the converter.
- The stator support tube is replaceable by itself. You don't have to buy a
pump cover, or a pump. The late model stator support tubes are heat treated
and don't have the same problem the early models do. The can be identified
by the "black & blue" heat treating marks on the splines. If the splines
are regular silver color, the splines are subject to similar wear down the
road. Granted, as long as the early, non-heat treated splines wear in the
same vehicle, the thrust bearing problem won't re-occur. It's when this
wear is introduced into another vehicle, another motor, another converter,
or anything changes to change the relationship of the
motor/converter/transmission; it will cause some poor soul grief like you
wouldn't ( or should I say would ) believe.
Larry Bloodworth 70530,3072
S13/For Techs Only 29-Dec-95
- The stripped splines you mentioned is when the transmission's life outlives
the stator spline wear problem. As long as the transmission/engine/
converter combination remains the same; the spline wear will never cause a
problem. UNLESS.....the transmission lives to a ripe old age and the the
stator support splines finally wear out. When the stator support splines do
finally strip out [lesson #9,734 in the book of automotive problems from
Hell], the symptoms will be exactly like a bad sprag in the converter. i.e.
no power from a standing stop; loss of power; power at a cruise-O.K.; and
the like. This is another "Is it engine or is it transmission??" problem
from hell. It has driven many tune-up techs to drink. Imagine that.
- Larry's rule of stator support splines: "If they aren't blue, you'll be
that way soon." If you only use the late model heat treated splines (hear
that trans techs?) you'll never see this problem again.
- Here's what stinks: Everything is fine and the engine guy changes motor and
the "THRUST BEARING FROM HELL" raises it's ugly head. "Must be the motor
because we never had that problem before." they say. Poor guy. All he was
trying to do was make a living putting a motor in and now he owns the
"THRUST BEARING FROM HELL".
- Watch out. It'll bite ya'.
Ed Anderson 76544,622
S13/For Techs Only 02-Jan-96
- Very interesting all the thoughts and ideas concerning thrust bearing
failures on Chev engines after the automatic trans. is rebuilt. I have been
keeping-up with all the suggestions everyone has offered. Have been waiting
for someone to share some insight that aligned with my thinking. I have
done an article for "Transmission Digest" (December, 1995) and "AutoInc"
(February, 1995) magazines that touch on the subject. If you would like, I
can FAX you copies of the articles.
Manny Tumasian 103172,1545
S13/For Techs Only 02-Jan-96
- I am a reader and subscriber to "Transmission Digest" and have not read the
thrust bearing failure article which you have referenced in a recent forum
message. I am anxious to read it based on the multitude of information I
have received from you in your regular articles to Transmission Digest. I
would like to thank you very much for allowing me to be a much better
automatic transmission instructor.
LARRY M. COLE 102514,1153
S13/For Techs Only 03-Jan-96
- >I think everyone's ideas are correct but would you consider other
>possibilities as well?
- I would welcome any more information I could get my hands on, That is why I
posted the message in this forum...I wanted ideas from others that may have
been in the same situation and had solved the problem. The detailed message
from Larry Bloodworth was very helpful as well as a number of other
suggestions from some other people. The engine has been installed in the
truck and delivered to the customer now..has been gone for just over a week
now, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he doesn't show up with another
thrust bearing out. Another week and I think I can rest easy.
- If you thoughts differ from the ideas that have been posted here on this
matter I think it would be a good idea to bring them up in this forum so
that all of the people that have gotten involved with this discussion can
benefit from the additional information, There is currently a similar
discussion going on in the RV FORUM in the tech tips section and some of the
information that was posted here has migrated over there also. I think it is
great that there are so many knowledgeable people out there that are willing
to discuss these kinds of problems and solutions.
John's Performance <[email protected]>
gnttype 18 Jan 1996
- >A friend of mine who owns a TT/A already had a 10 vane pump in his bone
stock car.<
- Dave, all I can tell you is when I rebuilt mine and 2 customers TT/A's, all
three had the 7 vanes. Also if you look at page 200-4R-37 in the TT/A
service manual supplement, it clearly shows only the 7 vanes. Your friend
was lucky eh?
[email protected]
gnttype 24 Jan 1996
- Several people have asked what Mike Kurtz does to a 200-4R. So here goes.
- Mike Kurtz build up for 200-4R (per my 5/5/93 invoice):
Trans Overhaul Kit
Band, 200-4R Kevlar
HP Res. Reg. Valve
HD 10 vane pump kit
Shift Kit, 200-4R (Combination of Art Carr & Trans-GO)
HP 3rd Clutch Kit
HP 4th Clutch Kit
Filter, 200-4R
Sprag, Low/Reverse
Sprag, O.D.
Bushing, Pump, 700/200
Pump Stator Assembly
HP 1-2 Servo Assembly
----------->$985.00
- Plus $63 shipping from Houston via Amtrack. Note that Mike will occasionally
interchange some parts due to availability.
- This transmission still shifts like no other! The trans was raced pretty
hard for two years and is now utilized in my daily driver. Caution, this
trans will hit 4th gear harder than a rock if the torque converter is locked
up (I installed a TCC defeat switch).
Richard
gnttype 28 Jan 1996
- Last weekend, I decided to pull my single piston (from a 3-speed 200) servo
out of my 200-4R for a few measurments and mods. ;-)
- First, I placed about .025" of shim under the E-clip of this thing. My
intention here was to shorten the overall static (non-applied) length of the
assembly to increase 2nd band clearance. I did this to try to eliminate a
slight trace of a 2-3 bindup that I continue to experience.
- Second, I placed about .065" of shim under the spring in order to
effectively increase the spring rate and reduce accumulation. My goal here
was to make up for the lost 1-2 firmness caused by the aforementioned
increase in 2nd band clearance.
- I was hoping that the 2-3 bindup would be additionally reduced by these
shims due to their limiting of the overall piston travel. If the piston
does not have to force as much fluid out of the cylinder upon release of the
2nd band apply pressure, the band will ultimately release quicker, right?
- It turns out the I was wrong on most counts. My 1-2 is now about the same
at WOT but softer at light throttle, the 2-3 appears not to bind quite as
much but does not feel as firm, either. The only thing I firmed up was my
reverse apply (!) and the everpresent downshift clunk at zero throttle in
Drive at 4mph while braking to a stop.
- I was thinking of pulling the e-clip shim thereby returning the unit back to
it's original length, but adding a lot more shim under the spring. Any
ideas?
- Anyone for replacing the damn spring with a piece of PIPE?!?
- Am I off base on how this thing even works???
Jay Carter
gnttype 28 Jan 1996
- > Am I off base on how this thing even works???
- I know the problem that you are having well. I went through it with the
first 4 or 5 trannys my guy built for me. The fix is to block off the 1-2
accumulator with a cup plug in the housing. Somehow shim the accumulator
beneath the 1-2. I have always used washers or an old spring to do this.
Then, remove the line-bias valve from the valve body, take the spring off of
it, and shim the valve all the way shut. Next, take the spring that you took
from the line bias valve and use it on the 1-2upshift valve in the valve
body. This is what I did in the last tranny that's in the car now and it
will bark 3rd at 60 MPH. Not really a good thing because of input shaft
weakness but it should be able to be toned down somewhat.
Richard
gnttype 28 Jan 1996
- >I know the problem that you are having well. I went through it with the
>first 4 or 5 trannys my guy built for me. The fix is to block off the 1-2
>accumulator with a cup plug in the housing.
- You are referring to the externally accessable servo piston on the passenger
side of the tranny, right? I believe there may be an additional 2nd
accumulator inside as well...
Jay Carter
gnttype 29 Jan 1996
- >You are referring to the externally accessable servo piston on the
>passenger side of the tranny, right?
- Internal accumulator
- Well, trying to fix your problem with a servo is pointless. The larger
servos from the older 200s do nothing but make a 3rd gear problem WORSE! You
need to have an excellent 3rd gear before you install a larger servo. BTW,
there is only ONE servo from a 200 that is larger.. The last 3 numbers on
the servo cover is 112 and the last three numbers on the piston is 334.
Richard
gnttype 29 Jan 1996
- > Internal accumulator
- Ahhh, the Mike Kurtz mod sheet mentions what to do with this thing...
- > Well, trying to fix your problem with a servo is pointless.
- The servo does have an accumulative effect due to its spring compressing
during apply, does it not?
- > The larger servos from the older 200s do nothing but make a 3rd gear
> problem WORSE!
- The addition of the older 200 servo helped both my 1-2 and my 2-3 a LOT. I
can only guess that perhaps the source of my bindup was different than
most...
Jay Carter
gnttype 17 Feb 1996
- >Another thing concering tourque converters. I am referring to the non-lock
>up style. I know the converter has multiplication on the starting line and
>the converter attemps to lock up on the top end, but what happens to the
>converter multiplication as it goes down the track??
- The torque multiplication on an Art Carr 9 inch is somewhere around 1.65 or
so I have been told. Art Carr converters slip like a bitch. They work but
they do slip big time. That's why Art Carr converters don't MPH. Look at the
lockup stuff... guys running 11.70s at 117 and me run 11.30s at 120...
Hmmmm... anyway, I have a new non lockup converter being manufactered for me
by another company that I am getting ready to do to. We had an Art Carr cut
open and rebuilt to these specifications a couple of years ago and Nelson's
car gained about 1.5 MPH with this converter. Price on it is going to be
somewhere around $550.00, I think. It has the good torrington bearings and
anti-balooning plate and all that stuff installed and I expect it to slip
less than an Art Carr. The guy who is building them for me has cut open many
Art Carr's and said two things. #1 None of them are the same. They all have
different parts in them and #2 They're all made with inferior quality
products. I have seen the parts side my side when I went over to this guys
shop and he is right....
David Cooley
gnttype 04 Mar 1996
- >Well, I finally decided to go with an Art carr kit last week as I just
>couldn'y pass up Bob Kyle's price in the Turbo Trader(Thanks again). After
>going through the shift kit components, I noticed the pressure regulator
>valve that I wanted(comes with the kit now I guess). Any how, the ART CARR
>valve body diagram doesn't show a "pressure regulator valve". Is this the
>throtle valve on the diagram? I haven't taken any valves out to the VB to
- The Pressure regulator valve goes in the front pump body. There is also a
TCC valve that is supposed to be modified in the Art Carr kit that goes
there as well. The lack of proper and complete instructions is the
beginning of the Art Carr nightmare... It will get worse. Should have gone
with Mike Kurtz's kit...
[email protected] (Brian Sowle)
gnttype 05 Mar 1996
- I just got done putting in a shift kit in my GN and I had the same problem.
I couldn't find the "pressure regulator valve". I finally called Level 10
and they told me where it was.
- There are two recessed snap rings towards the torque convertor side of the
tranny. (front) The one on the passenger side is the right one. Be careful
when you take the pressure off the snap ring since there is a spring that
will rocket the valve into your face. (If the tranny is out of car you might
have to flip the tranny over to allow the spring and valve to drop out.)
When you go to put the valve back in take a little vasoline or wheel bearing
grease and smear it on the new valve and slide it back in. It should stay
up in the valve bore.
[email protected]
gnttype 14 Mar 1996
- >Does anyone know whats better to fix the leaky filter with? RTV or JBweld?
>I am not sure about the best fix for the leaky trans filter, I'm leaning
>toward the JB weld fix for my tranny.
- I noticed that Mike Kurtz uses RTV, I think the high temp oil-resistant
copper-colored stuff.
- JB Weld is great stuff, but having improperly used it once in a marine
environment I noticed that it has *metallic* particles in it that rust (read
steel). Not sure you may want to have any of that stuff spalling off in the
tranny. I'd go with RTV.
[email protected] (Carl F. Ijames)
gnttype 15 Mar 1996
- >I can't speak for Chris, but in my car, you have to leave it in third gear
>or it will hit O/D at about 80. I try not to run the revs too high in
>third (this is my daily driver), so at about 90 or so, I move it to O/D.
- Well, as Tom van Wormer (at least twice) and I (only once; knock on wood)
can attest, occasionally that full throttle shift into O/D will blow the
springs out of the governor. Then it will only upshift at the full governor
rpm set by the TV cable, no matter how slowly or quickly you accelerate.
Pretty scary the first time you pull away from a stop after running someone
topend and it seems like it will never shift into 2nd. Another reason most
people run the 1/4 in Drive.
"Melvin D. Hatcher"
gnttype 17 Mar 1996
- >I noticed the car was not wanting to shift out of first. It finally
>shifted into second at about the time it hit the rev limter. I managed to
>get the car home. It does not appear to make any difference how slow or
>fast I accelerate. The story is the same.
- I had a similar problem. The only thing I done to correct my problem, was
to disconnect the TV cable at the throttle valve. Start the engine, and
just tug the TV cable several times, then gave it a few quick pops, shut off
the engine reconnected the TV cable, and went for a ride. Been fine every
since.
David Schmucker
gnttype 17 Mar 1996
- >Brett; Sounds like the tranny governor lost its springs. If you drop
>the pan & pull the governor cover, ( right at the back near output
>shaft) you'll find that it drops right out with a little tug. If there
>are no springs holding the flyweights, this is your problem. They are
>probably in the pan, and it is just a matter of replacing them to get
>things right again.
- T/R's only use one spring. I have lost the spring before and had a VERY high
shift but I dont think this is your problem.
[email protected]
gnttype 19 Mar 1996
- >my question: Is there a set procedure on adjusting the tv cable or do you
>just "play" around with it?
- You pull it all the way out (tightened) then open the throttle wide open You
will hear and feel it click a few times. This is basically set. You can
change shift point/firmness a little by moving a notch or two each way, but
this seting is usually pretty close.
[email protected] (Mike Pitts)
gnttype 22 Mar 1996
- >1. Does this little modification only reduce passage of unfiltered fluid
>or is there an actual performance improvement????
- Nope, keeps *air* from getting in the fluid. Definite performance gain.
- >2. Should I use synthetic or is that a waste of money?
- Waste of money IMO. Type-F is great.
- >3. Should I install a trans drain plug while doing all this? If so, can
>it be bought at, say, Pep Boys --- or where?
- Your choice, can be found the "help" section of most parts stores. Seal it
good!
[email protected]
gnttype 25 Mar 1996
- Lately there has been a lot of filter talk. I heard Sealed Power makes a
ZERO leak filter for the 200. This filter is supposed to have max filtering
and max flow. The part number is 8634223, but look for a small SP symbol to
make sure it is a Sealed Power part.
- I have not personlly seen this filter, but for some reason if it still
needs to be JB-welded (or RTV) please the myself and the list know.
Jay Carter
gnttype 07 Apr 1996
- >>At 8 lb. of boost the front seal on my 2004R went first. So I vote for
>>the front tranny seal as being the weakest link in the TR's drive train.
- >One visible thing I noticed on the "umpteen improvements over the original
>OEM unit" is that on GM Goodwrench rebuilds they now put some sort of
>reinforcement/keeper fitting on the front seal.
- >I asked Mike Kurtz about this and he says he enlarges a fluid passage to
>keep the front seal from blowing. FWIW.
- This sounds like the same modification that we make to the front pump. To
date, we have made probably over 100 passes at low-mid 10s on a 200 4/R and
had no failures (Car has a TH400 now, though). Best was 10.18 @ 135.00. This
tranny probably saw a total of over 200 runs from low 11s on down. The
converter used was a 9.5 non lockup built by a company here local. This
converter was good for about 2 MPH over the Art Carr unit (Which we did
break but that's a different story). I still think with a proper
transmission, the rear end is the weak link in the car.
Ken Mosher
gnttype 09 Apr 1996
- > Regarding no 2-3 shift at WOT;
- > I had precisely the same problem last year with my unit.
> After extensive testing of all GN systems it was traced to
> a combination of both bad MAF sensor and bad ECM.
- Yep. I remember this one... you traced to the fact the car wasn't revving
up to the shift point.
- > The failure mode discovered was that the MAF was improperly reporting and
> the ECM was improperly receiving. The result was that the ECM mis-
> commanded transmission operations.
- Well, just to clarify, the tranmission wasn't shifting, due to the ENGINE
being down on power and revs for the TV pressure being demanded by the TV
cable. The transmission is not electronically controled (the TV valve is
the only thing altering shift behaviour on the 200-4R).
- There are two switches in the valve body (one in the back end for 3rd gear
and one on the bottom for 4th gear) that are activated when the car hits the
appropriate gear. This is sensed by the ECM for TCC lockup. The ECM doesn't
have any direct control over the operation of the transmission. I know that
Tom knows this, just wanted to make sure it was clear...
Scott J Moody
gnttype 17 Apr 1996
- During a hasty rebuild of my 200R4 I noticed (recalling from memory) that
the dirct (3rd gear) clutch drum had 2 snap ring grooves to retain the
clutches/ plates. It appeared that if you had 1 extra clutch and steel, you
could add these and and use the outermost snap ring groove. The direct
clutches were the most discolored (near black) of all so it would make sense
to increase the capacity if possible, in my case. Q: Is there enough room to
add the extra clutch/steel and still have the forward (1st) drum sit where
it is supposed to, or will the direct clutch pack then be too thick?
- Also, it seems idiotic for a so called engineer to design a clutch pack
where there are two steels back to back with no cllutch plate in between
(asin 4th or overdrive). Next rebuild (if ever) I plan on milling off half
the thickness of a clutch plate from each steel and insert a plate between
the two steels. This would give me 3 clutches in overdrive instead of two,
since these were the next discolored (very dark brown). Is this wacky or
reasonable?
Ken Mosher
gnttype 17 Apr 1996
- [....Next rebuild (if ever) I plan on milling off half the thickness of a
[clutch plate from each steel and insert a plate between the two steels.
[This would give me 3 clutches in overdrive instead of two, since these were
[the next discolored (very dark brown). Is this wacky or reasonable?
- Very reasonable. Mike Kurtz (and probably others, such as Art Carr) sell a
set of clutches that do what you describe. In my recent tranny trauma, I
had these installed in mine.
Ken Mosher
gnttype 22 May 1996
- > Can anyone explain what the difference is between what our cars came
> with (D5 converter) and a D6 or D7? What are the differences? I have
> a buddy who has a D6 in his TR (AAMCO rebuild - he didn't know). His
> car is slow starting off, and really don't start cooking until around
> the top of 1st, going into 2nd. The converters look to be the same
> size, but there is an obvious difference inside. I know we MUST have
> a D5, but what makes a D5 special?
- The D5 converters have "5"s stamped all around the outer shell and have a
hgiher stall than the 6 or 7s. That's why your buddy's car is sluggish off
the line.
Carl Ijames
gnttype 30 May 1996
- > The only real difference was the governor. The 86/87 had a shift point
> about 100-200 RPM higher than the 84/85. All else was the same.
- According to an early ATR newsletter the 86 shift points were higher than
the 87's, and the governors have different part numbers. I put an 87 gov in
my 86 t-type and the shift points went down a couple of hundred rpm. Don't
know where the 84/85's shifted.
Alan Kroeper
gnttype 02 Jun 1996
- About using the 4L80E, current Summit catalog has Accel #75100 transmission
controller. Lists for $545.99 (OUCH!). Page B3 (new products section)
Ken Mosher
gnttype 02 Jun 1996
- > I own a 87 GN and am having a problem with the car shifting at very high
> RPM's under WOT. The car shifts great at 3/4 throttle. I only have a
> problem at WOT. I tried the adjust the TV Cable but it only resets itself
> back to the original position. Anyone got a solution?
- WOT is controlled primarily by the governor. You may have to check to see
if the spring has fallen out of the governor. This involves dropping the
pan and undoing the governor cover bolts.
- If that isn't it, it might be in the line pressure (Throttle Valve
controlled or the line bias valve).
[email protected] (Carlos Jr. Villalon)
gnttype 08 Jun 1996
- >Hmmmmmm.... it should be BRF (the F can look like a "3" in that pink
>paint) The tranny should be BRF too, if it came out of an '87 TR.
>I see listed CRF and a CYF....but no BY13. According to the book, the
>tranny models should all be 3 letter combinations (at least for '87).
- That's pretty strange. Our '86's original GN tranny has a BR2 valve body.
Looks exactly like our 87's valve body with a BR3 stamping which is about 2
months old from Zak. I do know the tag on the '86 does say BRF. I don't
know if this contributed to answering your question Jay, but it looks like
there were different stampings on these things. May be its a valve body for
an earlier GN? Anybody with an '84 - '85 that can confirm this or deny
this?
[email protected] (BEEPER #603)
GNTTYPE 09 Jun 1996
- > the valve body I have has BY13 painted on the side of it. I was told that
>this was a GN valve body although all the GN valve bodies I have ever seen
>had BR3 painted on the side. Can anyone confirm or deny this? The tag on
>the side of the tranny was pink with BY printed on it?
- I can only speak for the markings on my '87 tranny. (which is currently out
of the car awaiting a rebuild) The tail shaft tag is BRF and is YELLOW.
The valve body has PINK paint on it and BR3 in white stencil paint on it. I
believe these are the correct markings for an '87 tranny & valve body and
seem to remember a blurb in the GSXtra on this--don't remember which issue.
- I know Ken mentioned that the valve body should have BRF on it, but mine and
a friend of mine's both have BR3 on the valve body. I think another list
member posted that they had BR3 too. Perhaps the '3' on Ken's valve body in
the pink paint looks like an 'F'???? I'll have to double check mine when I
get home.
Ken Mosher
gnttype 09 Jun 1996
- > posted that they had BR3 too. Perhaps the '3' on Ken's valve body in the
> pink paint looks like an 'F'?
- Yep, you're right...sorry for the confusion. I dug out my old (ruined)
valve body (*Grrrrr*) and looked. The pink paint was smeared and what I took
for an "F" is actually a "3". I also changed the fluid in the tranny in the
car and checked the marking...sure enough it was "BR3". That one is a SRTA
from GM. The tag on the side of the tranny is green but says BRF on it. My
orignal tranny had a Yellow tag with BRF on it.
[email protected] (Carlos Jr. Villalon)
gnttype 04 Jul 1996
- >Since I've finally got my car running to it's full potential, I've
>had to adjust my TV cable to the most aggresive setting to achieve
>firm WOT shifts. My transmission has about 200 miles on it and the
>valve body is from a Cadillac.
- I went the same route using a valve body froam a Caddy. Do yourself a favor
and get a GN valve gody. I had problems with very late shifts at WOT and
the clutches would only last about six months. I believe it was do to the
low pressure that the Caddy valve body puts out. You must have that valve
body or else you stand a chance of over revving and BOOM!!!
- >My gut feeling is that the pressure regulating spool in the TR transmission
>is significantly different than the Cadillac pressure regulator spool in
>terms of the base pressure setting. Does anyone sell just the pressure
>regulating spool or do I need a whole TR valve body? Is the TR valve body
>still available from Mr. Goodbucks?
- THe pressure regulator valve is the same. However, most shift kits will
provide you with a better one that goes in the "pump assembly". There is
also another valve that is slightly bigger and is supplied with the Level 10
Kit(can't remember). This valve is twice as larger thatn a GN's stock
application and twice as large when compared to a regular caddy type valve.
Any how, these valve bodies are still available from GM as I ordered one
from Zak last March. It cost me about $400. But, it did eliminate some of
my headaches. Now I need to get rid of that CRAPPY KB CONVERTER which is
giving me fits. Hope this helps.
Mike Pitts
gnttype 09 Jul 1996
- > They say that the tcc in all trans are applied with pressure, and also
>kept in the release position with pressure....
- This is the way I was told it works. Case in point, there is a checkball in
the end of the input shaft that slows the apply pressure to the TCC clutch.
If you remove this checkball, the TCC enagage will feel more like a gear
shift (like it's going into fifth). It's hard to imagine that removal of
that checkball would cause such a dramatic increase in firmness of the apply
if it were simply allowing the pressure to *relieve* quicker.
- And if pressure wasn't holding the clutch in the engaged position, what
would? There's no pressure plate inside the converter. :P
Tony DeQuick
gnttype 19 Jul 1996
- > Cool. Thanks guys. Gonna drop the pan and change the fluid and filter.
> The level is okay now. Might as well put a cooler on while I'm at it.
> Couldn't hurt anything. Any ideas on how to adjust the TV cable? Any
> help is appriciated greatly.
- If the shifts are a little sloppy, try tightening the TV cable by pulling it
back a few clicks. As Scott previously mentioned, it only takes a little
adjustment to make a noticable difference.
Dan Smith
gnttype 23 Jul 1996
- I use the ATSG (Automatic Transmission Service Group) service manual for
working on the 200-4R. Most mitchell and motor manuals also have a section
covering it. I have found the ATSG book to be the most detailed with TSB's
and mods required for most tranny problems. The book can be had for about
$20.00 at most any transmission parts wholesale supplier. I also have a
bulletin from, who knows, covering pump buzz and breakage, also converter
hub breakage and balooning. This is caused by the pressure regulator valve
used in some 200-4R/700-4R pumps. The mod requires grinding off the second
land on the pressure regulator valve spool.
Tony DeQuick
gnttype 30 Jul 1996
- After reviewing the 200R4 service manual, I've come to the conclusion that I
have low line pressure based on the following symptoms:
- sloppy shifts at WOT
- low shift points at WOT
- My car shifts at about 3700 RPM at WOT with the TV cable maxed out. Without
putting a gage on the test port on the side, I'm guessing the pump is
heading south. Since the transmission builder is not being very cooperative,
I've procured a complete '87 GN transmission that is ready to go in less a
stall converter.
- After talking with my new transmission guy today, he pointed out that some
of the early 200R4s used the same input shaft configuration as the 700-4R.
The reason I am concerned is that the converter I have in the car now is a
12" TCI 2500 RPM stall converter and I have never heard of anybody else
running this converter. Do I need to procure a converter for an '85 or newer
transmission or is there an easy way to swap the input shaft? I'm hoping
that its only the pump shafts that are different, since this would be a 15
minute swap.
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 31 Jul 1996
- >>>Secondly, do I run a bead of this around the filter where the plastic top
>>>part and the metal bottom plate join?
- >>Yep. I also use my finger to smooth it down into the seam before it dries.
- > I've never heard anything about this type of procedure before. Do you
>actually put RTV or JB-WELD on the end of the filter that goes up into the
>housing to seal it better?
- Not if you ever want to get it out again... :-)
- Read the discussion above. The idea is to seal the seam where the plastic
and metal parts are crimped so that the pump must suck through the openings
in the top of the filter and not through any potential gaps in the seam,
which might cause it to suck air under hard acceleration.
[email protected] (S.Keller-CV Instrumentation Manager BB1F 7-6317)
gnttype 01 Aug 1996
- >I don't understand, why would anyone use silicone sealant to do a tranny
>service? Is it other than a 200 4R?
- No.
- >Everytime I did my tranny services, there was no need to put "poop" on the
>gasket surfaces, and the filter (with O-ring) simply presses into an
>orifice. What am I missing here?
- We aren't talking about a gasket surface or the O-ring.
- As Ron L. commented:
>The RTV or JB-Weld seals the metal part of the filter to the plastic part.
- Next time you have a 200-4R filter handy, cover the fluid inlet holes and
blow into the neck where the O-ring goes. Chances are you'll find air
hissing out at various points where the metal bottom of the filter is
crimped to the plastic top part. Under hard acceleration the front of the
filter may be above the fluid level and this may allow the pump to suck air
(instead of fluid) through one of these leaks. Sealing along the crimp
eliminates this.
Dan McCann <[email protected]>
gnttype 11 Aug 1996
- > What I am now thinking is that somehow when he switched end tanks-or
> whatever it is that they do-the new (later) end tank has some type of
> blockage in it that is either backing up or severly slowing down the fluid
> causing a leak at the weakest spot.
- bearing failure!!!!
- According to the Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association (AERA) technical
bulletin January 1987 - TB 415:
"Using a device that incorporated a port-a-power with a pressure gauge and
throw-out bearing, tests were performed on a V8 engine with a failed thrust
bearing and a THM 350 General Motors transmission. It was determined that
excessive forward pressure was being placed on the thrust bearing (150 to
300 lbs.). After disconnecting the torque converter, the pressure dropped
to zero and the crankshaft would run wherever positioned by the fixture with
no forward pressure registering on the gauge.
- "Replacement of the torque converter, stator support, and input shaft did
not reduce the forward pressure exerted on the crankshaft. Other areas of
the transmission were checked, replaced or modified in an attempt to reduce
the forward pressure on the crankshaft to no avail.
- "Pressure gauges were finally hooked up to the transmission cooler lines.
The transmission output line (converter fill) had 100 lbs. of pressure while
the return line (lube oil) only had 10 lbs. This indicated a restriction in
the cooler or the lines to the cooler. Bypassing the cooler substantially
reduced the forward pressure on the crankshaft. Further tests indicated a
positive relationship between lube oil/converter pressure and forward
pressure on the crankshaft. Reducing the lube oil/converter pressure to 30
lbs. at full throttle reduced forward pressure on the crankshaft to nearly
zero.
- "It is believed that excessive lube oil/converter pressure builds up between
the front pump and the hub of the converter creating excessive forward
pressure on the crankshaft. The bypass valve generally cannot vent this
excessive pressure."
- So Brian, if you do have a blockage, GET IT FIXED ASAP. I found this out
the hard way. I had to have the engine rebuilt. The thrust bearing was
shot and the crank was walking 1/16 of an inch! Under heavy acceleration,
the car would squeal loudly as the metal to metal (crank to bearing) contact
force was increased. The car ran, but it wasn't going to for much longer.
This was on an engine with less than 5K miles on a fresh rebuild from the
previous owner. Big bucks :( Yes, this was the 82 turbo.
- Sorry for the bandwidth all, but I don't want to see anyone go thru what I
had to for a simple blockage in a tranny cooler/line.
[email protected] (Scott E. Keller)
gnttype 01 Sep 1996
- > >>The tranny seems to shift to overdrive way to early.
> >> On a half throttle drive-a-way from a light, it squaaaaacks the tires
- > If the TV cable is set to where it shifts firm, this should actually
> delay the shift MPH/RPM.
- Well...If its shifting early, its probably set too 'tight'. (jacket too far
back) This would make the TV think the throttle is more open than it really
is. Which might also give hard part-throttle shifts, as it will be shifting
like it should at a higher throttle level. If it was too 'loose' (jacket too
far forward) it would probably shift late.
Jay Carter
gnttype 24 Sep 1996
- >>On the 2-3 shift my engine will quickly rev maybe 100-200 rpm or more
>>(it's hard to tell because it happens so fast) then shift firmly into 3rd.
>>Is this what is known as a "flare"? When the trans does finally decide to
>>shift, it is a good firm shift, there's just a 200 ms or so delay which
>>doesn't happen in the 1-2 or 3-4 shift.
>>What typically would cause this and what would be a solution? Thanks.
- >A misadjusted TV cable (the one which goes from the throttle body to the
>trans) will do this. See if it flares more at part throttle than at WOT,
>or if at WOT it doesn't flare at all. If so chances are it's the TV cable.
- The 200 4/R is designed (Well, maybe misdesigned) to drop pressure on the 2-
3 shift. It has always been a problem in the past with most transmissions
having a weaker 2-3 shift than the 1-2 and even the 3-4 sometimes. I have
been using an Art Carr pressure regulator valve that keeps the 2-3 pressure
up on the shift. Mike Kurtz (PMAC) uses this valve in all his transmissions,
This seems to eliminate the problem with the 2-3 flare as long as everything
else internal is set up correctly.
"SARA E. RAMOS"
gnttype 04 Oct 1996
- >Pump cavitation can cause a whining sound in an auto trans, also.
>Unfortunately, the main cause of cavitation is filter blockage.
>Have you had the pan off for an inspection?
- >>In my 87GN, particularly when warmed up, there is a light rattle type
>>noise that occurs at the shift point between the letting go of one
>>gear and the engaging of the other. The noise doesn't usually occur
>>when the tranny is cold and does worsen the hotter it gets.
>>Also, there is now a whine that occurs primarily under hard
>>accelleration. The kids seem to think is sounds "cool" but I don't
>>happen to share their enthusiasm.
- Yes, the whining sound can be caused by pump cavitation. Do the obvious
thing and check the fluid level after the transmission is warm on a level
surface, car running. However, if the fluid level seems ok, you may wish to
drop the pan and check the filter for clogging, or more likely a leaking
seal where it goes into the transmission (inlet). Sometimes people forget
to take out the little rubber seal that invariably gets stuck in the
transmission during a filter change. This can potentially lead to the
problem you have described after the new filter (with its own new seal) does
not seat fully in its bore. The colder fluid has not had the viscosity
change that warm fluid would have, so the thinner hot fluid leaking past the
inlet seal and causing pump cavitation would be suspect in my opinion. I
hope this helps you!
Mike Pitts
gnttype 11 Oct 1996
- >I know I have seen a posting about this before, but is it possible to tell
>from the outside if a tranny is a turbo one and if so how?
- Yes, well, at least you can tell if the *case* is a from a GN. Look for BR-F
on the metal ID tag. Also, look at the partial VIN on the other side (down
by the pan), the second alpha digit denotes the year. G=1986, H=1987.
Check the converter too for the D5 stamping.
Tony DeQuick
gnttype 14 Oct 1996
- >Does anyone have any idea what a valve body marked BQ12 is from? I bought
>an 87 "GN" transmission while ago (before I knew about correct valve body
>codes), and it came with this VB. Looks like I've been had. BTW: The
>markings are unmistakenly clear.
- >I looked at my "real" 86 GN valve body and it is marked BR2.
- >I've also noticed that the governer is not the same as the one from my real
>GN trans. My real governer only has one spring, the "mystery" governer has
>two. Also the counter weights are lighter (thinner) on the real governer.
- A friend if mine just went through the same thing; TR case with Cadillac
internals. When I bought my frist rebuild, I bought a used case for $40
since the mount pad bolts were cracked so its a fairly common thing since
these transmissions are 10+ years old.
- BTW, the rebuilder who redid my friends 200R4 installed the full race
automatic TransGo kit in the BU5 Caddy valve body with poor results. With
the full race kit, the car still shifts like a Caddy and the rebuilder
installed all of the TR specific parts outside of the valve body
(accumalator and cover, etc.). On a positive note, this is the first I've
heard of somebody installing the full race kit and actually getting the
transmission to even upshift without a problem (on the first try :) ). With
the Level 10 kit in a BU5 valve body, the car shits like a little harsher
than with a stock TR valve body. The 1-2 shift is tire roaching firm and the
2-3 shift wasn't quite as firm. I imagine similar results might be had with
the Mike Kurtz kit.
- Also worth mentioning, the guy (who seems to know TR 200R4s quite well) who
rebuilt my friends 200R4 said the Monte SS valve bodies work well in a TR
when used with a TR governer and with the shift points recalibrated. He said
even if you order a rebuilt TR transmission from GM, you may get one with a
Monte SS valve body and the above modifications performed.
"David A. Cooley"
gnttype 19 Oct 1996
- If anyone is interested, HELM publications sells transmission manuals as
well... Part number HM-200-4R-PO, $15.00 is for the 200-4R in the buicks.
They can be reached at: (800) 782-4356
Carl Ijames
gnttype 26 Nov 1996
- > surface) and its fine. I suspect the filter is leaking, as in the summer
> I put in the stock GM filter, without the sealant around the crimp. Any
> other thoughts before I drop the pan in 30 degree weather (YUK)?
- Well, according to Pat Barrett of Level 10 Transmissions, the GM filter is
made by Sealed Power (should have a SP logo) and doesn't leak around the
"David A. Cooley"
gnttype 30 Nov 1996
- >I have an orange crush converter (3000) lock-up for my car. I want to
>sell it to my friend with a new Z28. Does anybody know if a 200
>converter will fit a 700?
- Nope, different input splines.
[email protected] (Eric W.)
gnttype 30 Nov 1996
- 2. I used the K-B 200HSL 2800 converter and 200TL trans rebuild kit. The
converter will not stall anywhere near 2800, even with parking and service
brakes fully applied - 2400 is as high as it will go. If I only use the
service brakes, the tires start to spin at 2100. The converter is marked
"D-7". Does anyone else have experience with this unit?
- Also, WORD OF CAUTION: Check the 3 machined bolt holes on that nice shiny
heat-treated stator support - mine were drilled out to twice the size of the
original ones, causing the bolts to fret against the stator support flange
and come loose (took out the pump back half, turbine shaft, stator support,
bolts). The imprints from the bolt heads wearing away at the stator support
flange were clearly visible at the edges of the holes. Trans is all over
the garage floor in pieces (again - first time was after assembling the
whole car and adding trans fluid only to hear it dripping out on the ground
due to the pump in the 200TL kit coming with the wrong front seal pre-
installed in it) - I'm getting to be an expert at pulling it out and taking
it apart, thanks to Mr. Bell!
Steve Ochs <[email protected]>
gn 03 Dec 1996
- The 4T60-E is a FWD transmission. You are right about it being transverse
and it is the original THM-440T4 except it has electronic controls. The
4L60 is the 700-R4 which is a 350 with an Overdrive. The 4L60-E is an
electronic shift version. The 4L80 is an overdrive version of the 3L80 (the
old 400). The 4L80-E is an electronic shift version. Below is the contents
of a message I posted to the Oldsmobile list. It describes characteristics
of each of GM's later transmissions.
- Best viewed with fixed font:
Someone asked the question about the 4T60/65-E replacing the 700-R4. The
700-R4 is now known as the 4L60-E. The 4T60-E is a FWD tranny. The 4T65-E
is new this year for the hi-po applications (Grand Prix GTP, Riviera S/C,
Monte Carlo Z-34, etc). Unfortunately this will not help the racers out.
- The 4L60-E (700-R4) was improved again this year. Shift quality and
durability was enhanced. But the real choice for heavy duty racing is the
4L80-E or the 400. Here are some comparisons of ratings:
- If you note, the engine torque rating for the 200-4R and the 700-R4 is very
close in stock form. Considering the weight advantage, the gear ratio
preference, deeper overdrive, and the fact that the 700-R4 only comes in
Chevy bolt pattern, the 200-4R is preferable for most street applications
when built properly.
- |--------Maximum-------|
Engine Gearbox Gross Torque Overall
Transmission Weight Torque Torque Veh. Wt. Conv. Dia. Length
Model (lbs.) (lb/ft) (lb/ft) (lbs) (inches) (inches)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rear Wheel Drive:
-----------------
THM 180C (3L30) 130/140 258 440 7716 9.6/10.24 26.29/28.11
4L30-E 168/177 258 440 7716 9.6/10.24 28.54/31.57
THM 200-4R 157 330 550 6000 11.73 28.26
THM 700-R4 (4L60) 167/184 350 650 8600 9.6/11.73 29.77/30.64
4L60-E 160/176 350 612 8600 9.6/11.73 29.77/30.64
THM-400 (3L80) 190 440 885 12000 12.20 29.30/34.48
4L80-E 260 440 885 15000 12.20 31.93/33.02
- Front Wheel Drive:
------------------
THM 125C (3T40) 161 200 416 5100 9.64
THM 440-T4 (4T60) 195 235 369 5181 9.64
4T60-E 203 280 390 6400 9.64
4T65-E 214 285 400 6400 9.64/10.16
4T80-E 295 305 461 6800 10.43
- Gear Ratio Chart:
Transmission
Model First Second Third Fourth Reverse
------------------------------------------------------------
Rear Wheel Drive:
-----------------
THM 180C (3L30) 2.400 1.479 1.000 ----- 2.000
4L30-E 2.400 1.479 1.000 0.723 2.000
4L30-E Optional 2.860 1.620 1.000 0.723 2.000
THM 200-4R 2.741 1.568 1.000 0.674 2.067
THM 700-R4 (4L60) 3.059 1.625 1.000 0.696 2.294
4L60-E 3.059 1.625 1.000 0.696 2.294
THM 400 (3L80) 2.482 1.482 1.000 ----- 2.077
4L80-E 2.482 1.482 1.000 0.750 2.077
- Front Wheel Drive:
------------------
THM 125C (3T40) 2.840 1.600 1.000 ----- 2.067
THM 440-T4 (4T60) 2.921 1.568 1.000 0.705 2.385
4T60-E 2.921 1.568 1.000 0.705 2.385
4T65-E 2.921 1.568 1.000 0.705 2.385
4T80-E 2.960 1.626 1.000 0.681 2.130
Steve Ochs <[email protected]>
gnttype 07 Dec 1996
- >I must admit I haven't actually looked under my TTA (it's too low to
>simply look under) but I'm certain it has a 200-4R. I can't remember
>how the current L36 F cars hook a 4L60E to a 3800 - Steve?
- The change that made the 3800 available in the F-cars is that the 4L60-E now
has a separate bellhousing. The conversion started in 1994 to allow the
4L60-E to be sold to other automotive manufacturers. The transmission case
is the same for all models, but different bell-housings can be bolted on for
different bolt patterns. So, for the F-car application, all that had to be
done was to make a BOP bell-housing and bolt it to the standard 4L60-E main
assembly. I assume we will soon see racers using this setup in non-Chevy
applications instead of the more expensive 4L80-E?
- Yes, the TTA must have a 200-4R. The 700-R4 at the time only had a Chevy
pattern.
[email protected] (Keith J. Hansen)
gnttype 19 Jan 1997
- >I own a 1987 Grand National (my 2nd). I have a Trans. leak!!! It leaks
>around the pan, so I had the gasket replaced and filter changed, but it
>still leaked (even worse!!!) so I carried it back the next day, they looked
>at it closer and said there is a "boot" that needs replacing and "O" ring
>the parts are on order and should be in this Tuesday. My question is why
>would the leak have gotten worse after they replaced the gasket? And also
>if they do all of this and the leak keeps up what are my next steps?
- I had a '79 Pontiac that had a similar problem. Turned out it was
pressurizing that area of the trans (which isn't supposed to be under
pressure) with a cracked pump. $80 for a replacement pump and a few bucks
for a new gasket. It was fixed by the local college Automotive Technologies
Department for no labor charge. They were looking for cars with problems to
analyze and fix. I was lucky, 'cause they were right (didn't always happen)
and the trans stopped leaking.
Bob Hale
Hotrod 28 Jan 1997
- > I always thought that a converter in an automatic put regular and
> constantly harsh pressure on the thrust bearing... Does a std tranny
> "push" on the crank at all times when it is engaged or just when
> engaging? Which is worse, a std or auto. comparing say a T5 '89 camaro
> to a 700r4 '89 camaro, just for arguments sake?
- The longitudinal thrust of a conventional modern automatic occurs in the
transmission in three places: the pump gear shaft, the stator shaft, and the
input shaft. Each has a different mechanism involved, and requires a
different analysis. Each produces its own contribution to crankshaft thrust
loads.
- When you install an automatic, you will notice that there is about a tenth
of an inch clearance between the torque converter and the flex plate, before
you bolt them together. This is at least as much clearance as there is
between the converter and the pump when things are fully installed. You
would have to have enough pressure in the converter to expand it lengthwise
more than that tenth of an inch before you would run out of clearance, and
the first thing to go would likely be the tangs on the pump gear, followed
immediately by loss of transmission oil pressure and loss of all power
transmission. Since this doesn't normally happen, the pump gear clearance
is not normally a factor in crankshaft thrust.
- The stator shaft is pressed into the transmission case, and is splined at
the torque converter end where it engages the stator. Under light stator
torque loads, the splines will slip back and forth and cannot transmit any
longitudinal force to the stator and therefore cannot transmit any thrust to
the crankshaft. This is typical of cruising conditions.
- When the stator is heavily loaded, for example while accelerating under
heavy throttle from a stop, the stator is actively engaged in redirecting
the flow of the fluid, and is torque locked to the splines. The stator
cannot move, but oil pressure between the stator and the driven element
could push the driven element forward toward the engine, and this might
exercise the thrust surface of the crankshaft thrust bearing except that
other opposing forces are at work, for example the pressure between the
stator and the driving element.
- Note that the stator is equipped with a one-way clutch so that when the
driven element is turning at about the same speed as the driving element,
the stator is free to rotate. This is typical of cruising conditions, and
the stator contributes nothing to crankshaft thrust.
- The driven element of the torque converter is coupled to the transmission
input shaft by splines. Again, under light loading (cruising conditions),
the splines are free to slide over each other and no significant thrust
forces are produced. Under heavy input power conditions, the splines are
torque locked. This means that forces due to pressure in the converter
between the driven element and the converter housing will be applied to the
transmission input shaft, and can cause problems for the thrust washers and
bearings inside the transmission. I have seen T400 thrust washers (the
plastic ones between the drum assemblies) which have been flattened by such
loading. Many people replace the plastic washers with needle bearings and
assume that the problem is gone, but it isn't - that force still exists and
will cause grief to other parts of the transmission. Factory coverters have
a few small holes, usually about 1/8 inch in diameter and three of them,
around the inside edge of the driven element. These holes are supposed to
prevent the pressure from building up by allowing the oil between the driven
element and the converter housing to return promptly to the space between
the driving and the driven elements, but with a strong engine and a high
stall converter the factory holes may be inadequate and may need to be
enlarged to keep the pressure at reasonable levels.
- The same pressure which tries to shove the input shaft into the transmission
also pushes the torque converter forward into the engine, and this force is
applied to the crankshaft thrust bearing, possibly causing significant or
severe wear to the bearing. Proper torque converter internal venting is the
solution.
- So, it is possible for an automatic to place heavy thrust loads on the
crankshaft thrust bearing, but this will only occur if the transmission is
seeing high input power and the torque converter is not correctly vented
internally.
- The next time that you are discussing torque converters with an aftermarket
supplier, ask him how big the internal vent holes are, and how many there
are. You can determine his level of competence by his response.
"Daniel C. Smith"
gnttype 29 Jan 1997
- > does anybody no if a non turbo 200-r4 front pump is the same as a turbo
> 200-r4
- The front pump is pretty much the same, EXCEPT for the valves and springs.
If you need to replace yours, just re-use the valves and springs. Do the 10
vane pump and hardened stator shaft thing too, while your'e at it. Along
with drilling out the oil return hole from the front seal to 1/4" min.
Lemmie see..hmm...2" intermediate band...better not get started. :-)
"Eric \"Factory Stock Appearing\" Burgan"
gnttype 31 Mar 1997
- Sounds like you have a pressure-side seal leak in the 200R4. I do not
remember any of your previous tranny posts, but did you have the servo
piston out by chance? This is one of the most likely locations for a source
to your woes. See, if the lip seals on the servo piston leak, then under
light throttle and "low" pressure the tranny may shift just fine and hold
the 2nd band enough to allow 2nd gear motivation. However, at heavier
throttle (and increased TV) most of your fluid pressure is bleeding past the
bad seal and not being used to apply the band. It may not shift at all or
if it does it will surely be slip city and the RPM's will skyrocket as the
"loose" band is asked to hold onto all that big-time horsepower.
- Therefore, before you go spending big bucks, check the servo seals. Its
free, it can be done with the tranny in the car, and you don't have to take
a fluid bath to do it. Remove the CAT shield that is attached to the floor-
pan and this will allow you enough room to take off the servo cover spring-
ring, the cover, and subsequently the servo assembly. The lip seal on the
small end of the piston is the one that sounds like it may be leaking (it is
the apply). Also check the other one (the large one seals during band push-
off) as it never hurts. Don't only check for damage (although even the
smallest indention in the seal can cause a leak), but also make sure they
are oriented properly (if anyone has recently fooled with this part). The
lips (flappy parts) of the seals should both point outward away from the
center of the piston and away from each other (big seal lip points toward
tranny when installed, and the small seal lip points away from tranny when
installed.....the small seal is the one that rides inside of the cover).
- Once correct, smear the seals with vasaline as well as the servo bore and
reinstall the assembly and cover back in the tranny. Clip the cover ring in
place, replace the CAT shield, and give it a try. If everything was OK to
begin with and this does nothing for you, then the problem is a leak
internally on the pressure side and may well be in the valve body.
[email protected] (Ernest Quagliariello)
gnttype 31 Mar 1997
- > Doesn't the factory transmission come with a pan magnet?
- Yes it does. It is not welded on. There is also a magnet on the differential
cover but that is welded on.
[email protected] (Scott W Simpson)
gnttype 22 May 1997
- >Last night I changed the tranny fluid in my 87 GN and I happened to look at
>the clutch disks that you can see from behind the valve body section. I
>reached up and found that I can wiggle the clutch disks a good 1/2" or so
>back and forth. Is this a normal amount of play??
- Yes, it is normal. Another "oddity" is that if you remove the driveshaft,
you can wiggle the output shaft on a 200-4R.
Ed Pinzel
gnttype 27 May 1997
- I'd like to share some information about a new, pretty neet product
manufactured by Fairbanks Racing Products (904) 575-7877 of Tallahassee,
Florida. It's a HD Billet Servo Slide Assembly (SSA) for the 200R4, defined
by P/N # 20040. Linc Belt of NM first posted about 1 week ago, some
information about this new product, and I figured I'd give it a try, since I
was already planning to go back into the tranny to install a longer pin to
tighten-up the band clearance.
- Well, over the weekend, I installed this SSA along with the longer pin,
simply because after my re-build, I was unable to bark the tires on the 1-2
shift, unless I was really into it.
- Lonnie Diers ([email protected]) diagnosed and set-up my tranny as I was
having a mistifying over-reving problem on the 1-2 shift after the re-build.
(Ended up being a leaky servo slide assembly). He noticed the band was also
burnt, (probably from beating on the tranny trying to get the shift points
right), so we went to a shorter pin to be safe. Over-reving problem solved,
thanks to Lonnie.
- This SSA is Billet Aluminum and replaces the old servo cover, old 2nd gear
piston, 3rd gear accumulator spring and utilizes Lip Seal Type O-Rings. It
also comes with good instructions.
- I installed this piece, put in the longer pin, and took a small amount of
weight off of the governor as well. Which made all of my tranny
modifications really come together. 3000 stall 10" non-lockup torque
converter (Lonnie's Product), Art Carr Shift Kit, Borg Warner Friction,
Hardened Stator, High psi Regulator, 10 vane pump,....
- Unfortunately, to re-install the new Fairbanks SSA, I had to drop the
crossmember and lower the tail shaft of the tranny, but generally speaking,
the install was straight-forward.
- Coupled with the longer pin, the new SSA really firms-up the 1-2 shift, the
2-3 also became firmer in the process, but the 1-2 is a "Real Barker" now,
it barks the tires on part throttle shifts once again :)
- The only thing I am not too thrilled about is when the band engages under
nornal driving conditions, while coming to a stop, during the 3-2 engage,
the shift is rather abrupt, but it may have softened a bit or I may be
getting used to it.
Ramin & Maria Ansari
gnttype 30 May 1997
- >What if any problems will running 2 o rings cause? There seems to be
>enough room up there and it seems that 2 o rings would give a better seal.
- None I'd imagine. THM-400 rebuilders have long used 2 o-rings, since their
oil pick-up/filter connection is actually above the fluid level and they
tend to "suck" air from time-to-time.
[email protected] (Scott W Simpson)
gnttype 06 Jun 1997
- >-> Lots of places sell them, but who makes a deeper tranny filter?
- >Good point. What kind of spacer would it take to move the filter down?
- You can't use a spacer. The ideal setup would be to have a longer tube on
the trans filter. That way you would be sure that the filter media is
always covered by trans fluid. You could achieve this by only fushing the
filter up into the valve body a little bit, BUT DON'T as it would be more
inclined to fall out.
- Installing a deep trans filter with the stock filter does nothing more than
keep the fluid a little bit cooler (which is a good thing). Overfilling the
transmission and sealing the filter are still the best ways to ensure
constant oil flow through the filter.
National Performance
gnttype 25 Jun 1997
- > There was talk awhile back about putting a 200R4 behind a 455. Has anyone
>done this and how's the reliabilty? I scanned the homepage tech articles
>and couldn't see anything on doing this. Anything special needed?
- Hello Rob.I installed a 455 in my 83 Buick Electra which already had a 200
4r in it and I towed the race car with it.It worked great and the 200 4r had
128000 miles on it.It's still running today.Ya I know maybe I should turn it
off and give it a rest:-).Take care.
[email protected]
gnttype 01 Jul 1997
- speedo drive gear for 3.42 should be orange on the governor shaft.
Carl Ijames
gnttype 04 Aug 1997
- Well, yesterday was the Buick car show put on by The Source, at
Phoenixville, PA. One of the tech seminars was a talk by Pat Barrett from
Level 10 Transmissions covering what makes GN transmissions special and some
of their latest developments on shifting. Last year he actually directed
two volunteers while they installed a shift kit (see archives for my
summary), but this year it was just a talk. Here's the high points from my
notes:
- Apparently, when the TCC engages it requires pumping a large volume of oil
into the torque converter (about half a quart), so locking the TCC at the
same time as making a shift can temporarily starve the clutches for oil,
slowing the shift and accelerating wear. Unlocking requires pumping this
back out, so in driving situations where the TCC is locking and unlocking
the pan level is bouncing up and down substantially.
- Never, ever lift off at WOT just as the trans is starting to shift into 3rd
gear. If you do it at the right time it will snap off a shaft (I think it
is the forward clutch shaft but he was talking fast :-)).
- The stock 87 governor shifts at 5400 rpms and should only have a spring on
the little weight. If there is a spring by mistake on the large weight, it
will cause shuddering while decelerating, just like lugging a manual
transmission. Installing a "CZF" code governor from an '88 Monte Carlo SS
will raise the shifts to 5800 rpm (it comes with a 3.73 speedometer drive
gear that you have to swap with your old 3.42 one). The other way to raise
shift points is by grinding or drilling on the little weight, but it is all
trial-and-error, and starting with either governor the limit is about 6100
rpm due to the sizes of the oil passages in the governor circuit.
- If you take the magnet out of the oil pan, then any magnetic wear particles
will start sticking to the TCC solenoid and can eventually plug it up.
- He showed their new billet servo, which has larger piston areas ($120). This
lets them keep the 1-2 check ball in the valve body (but still drill out the
hole in the separator plate) so the part-throttle 1-2 shifts are nice and
gentle, but the larger servo makes the WOT 1-2 and 2-3 shifts nice and firm.
Also, he said that they had found a large variation in dimensions on the
stock servos, enough so that every trans they built had a little different
shift behaviour, but installing their servo made them all shift the same.
- I missed part of his comments on clutches; something to the effect that the
new "blue" ones shifted much quicker than the old "red" ones, enough so that
it looked like the shift rpms had dropped a few hundred rpms?
- He recommends putting the trans cooler after the radiator for maximum
cooling. I didn't ask if that was for winter-driven street cars, too :-).
- Because his comment last year about launching in 2nd gear for higher line
pressure raised some controversy, I "grilled" him on this. The line bias
valve is shown in the transmission flow diagram as a piston with an oil
supply at one end from the TV valve and one in the middle from the manual
2nd gear circuit, pressing on a spring, which presses on the line bias
regulator itself. However, this assembly is actually a piston within a
piston, so that even after the first piston has moved as far as it can from
the TV valve circuit, the inner piston can still extend further when the
gear selector is in 2nd gear (or reverse and 1st, I think) and oil is
supplied through that circuit. In park, the line pressure should be 125 psi
with his shift kit mods. Pulling the TV cable all the way out should raise
this to 220-250 psi, and shifting into 2nd will raise this another 50 psi
for a total of 270-290 psi. There is a pressure relief valve in the pump
which opens at 300 psi, so you don't want the line bias regulator to try to
provide more than about 290 psi. This extra 50 psi line pressure is why he
recommends launching with the gear shift in 2nd, letting the trans make the
1-2 shift with the governor, then manually making the 2-3 shift.
- Last year he had stated that he didn't like installing 10-vane pumps because
if the filter was restricting flow you could get cavitation and aeration.
This year he added some more comments to that. Apparently, in the 700-4R
trans the center of rotation is shifted 0.042" compared to the 200-4R trans,
so he says that just adding the 10-vane pump won't actually pump any more
oil. Also, the 10 vane unit isn't symmetrical so it is out of balance. GM
didn't care about high rpm balance because most of the 700-4R's went into
trucks, but that might be a problem for us. He didn't have any parts to
point out the differences, so I'm not sure I got this totally correct.
- Since the GN valve body casting is the same as other 200-4R's, and he is
confident that he knows all the differences in internal components, they
will offer replacement valve bodies later this year. (Note: I had talked
to Tom Blevins at DelTrans and he said that even after installing every GN
valve, piston, and spring into a standard valve body, he still couldn't make
it shift the same as a GN.) If this works out, it is good news since GM is
all out of valvebodies.
- They use Penzoil Dexron III oil.
- Well, that's all my notes. If you weren't at the show, you missed a nice
outing.
DC Smith
gnttype 07 Oct 1997
- > you headaches! If I remember there was this "guppy" product out there.
> I know it's part of the Mike Kurtz kit. I think the purpose of this was
- Actually, it comes in the Trans GO "NO YO YO" or "SysKoKal" shift kit. It is
patented by "Mr. Shift"... Gill Younger. Kurtz sells this kit after he makes
a few changes to the instructions with a black magic marker and throws in
some accumulator spacers (to block the pistons solid) along with a few other
things.
- > a plate which you bolted into the valve body via one of the accumulator
> bolts (I think) and it kept pressure on the filter. Not a tranny guy
- Actually, it is meant to put pressure on the valve body plate where the
passage goes into lo/reverse overrun clutch passage, to prevent the valve
body spacer/plate from lifting under pressure. It shouldn't be anywhere NEAR
the filter. It gets it's tension from the tranny pan, when tightened. I have
put them in a lot of tranny's.
- > but you could probably JB weld a short spring to the bottom of the pan
> to push up on the filter.
- The filter is supposed to sit on the bottom of the pan. The spring clip in
there, on a valve body bolt, is meant to push the filter down, not to hold
it up. Since the stock filter pulls fluid from the top, it would be
detrimental to the tranny to raise the filter.
smoody
gnttype 22 Oct 1997
- [...I'm in need of the instructions for drilling the seperator plate
[on our 2004R's
- Increased line pressure is a great start and a must. Having done my own
"shift kit", I can relate my experiences. The next thing to do is to enlarge
the orifices that feed the servos coming from the shift valves. This will
"speed up" the buildup of presure that operates the shift servos and cause
the shifts to actuate quicker/firmer. Find the 2nd Clutch orifice that comes
from the 1-2 shift valve and goes to the intermediate servo. There is a
check ball (#8) nearby and you can either remove the ball or start to drill.
You can drill by sizing the hole first and increasingly going larger until
you're happy but of course this takes time and a few gaskets. I think I
ended up 3/64 larger (3 tries). Sneak up on it as you can only go larger.
Next look for the 2-3 shift orifices, there are two, one on the supply side
(RND4D3) and on the shift outlet side, 3rd CL (near checkball #4). Again
either remove CB #4 or drill (recommended) until happy. Again I think I went
3/64 larger, although I think I need another 64th.
- Last, find the 3-4 shift valve orifice (RND4) and enlarge it. I think I only
needed 1/64 as my 3-4 accumulator/spring was reversed and it already had a
stiff shift.
- The good thing about this approach is that it only affects the servo
actuation time and not shift points (up/down), etc. Buy another spacer plate
as they are cheap ($12) and still available. Lemme know if you have any
questions.
Steve Ochs
gn 05 Nov 1997
- I am trying to find out what the different parts are between the BRF (Grand
National), KZF (442), and the Monte Carlo SS transmissions. I found a
source of the complete parts listings for all 200-4Rs ever built. (Don't ask
me to reveal it or to get a copy - I can't) I will try to find time the
next time I am at that source to do some checking on some of the
differences. I do know that the 1-2 servo piston and cover are larger on
the GN vs the others, the valve body is unique for calibration, and the
separator plate has different sized holes. I will keep the list informed.
- Steve Ochs aka N8TYS- Mfg. Engineer - GM Powertrain - Parma Plant
[email protected] (Eric Wiebrecht)
gnttype 10 Nov 1997
- Probably the crappy factory powder metal front pump rings, which have
fractured and are grinding themselves into the pump body. Soon to be
accompanied by 1-2 second drawn-out shifts and hefty slippage.
- Or, on the bright side, could be low fluid level or a filter seal problem.
Travis Aslin
gnttype 12 Nov 1997
- I went and checked my archives for an article on this subject, and found
that the November 96 issue of Hot Rod has this subject covered. In a sidebar
story, a guy named Jerry Snider has a 4L80-E in his 10 sec GN. Art Carr put
this together for him. Here's some of the highlights from the article:
- Art Carr has converters from a stock style 13 inch lockup to a full race 8
in convertor for these transmissions.
- The Turbo Shop makes a custom harness for the car. You tell them where you
want to mount the tranny ecm, how long you think the harness should be, and
they make it to fit. It's made with Packard wire, and includes a factory
firewall grommet, a diagnostic part, and the transmission equivalent of a
SES light.
- Talking about the electronics:
- "the trans can be tuned for brutal shifts under full throttle, and yet
maintain soft, nice shifts at part throttle. Shift points are also
adjustable. Both Art Carr and The Turbo Shop normally use a GM diesel pickup
trans computer with a custom chip and a dedicated wiring harness. The Turbo
Shop is working on a dash mounted switch that allows the driver to switch
between two diffrent programs i.e. street and race.
- The gear ratios in a 4L80-E are the same as a Turbo 400, except O/D which is
.75 The 4L80-E uses a standard Turbo 400 driveshaft yoke, and is also about
100 lbs heavier than a turbo 400.
- to quote Hot Rod:"And a 4L80E fir in Jerry Sniders GN after only a bit of
hammering on the trans tunnel." The 4L80E uses a standard turbo 400 trans
mount.
- So, the answer to the question is YES! Now the only problem I see is, that
this is an expensive deal, since it says here that a 4L80E from Art Carr
will set you back between $2500 to $3000, depending on converter used. That
includes a rebuilt trans with all the goodies, computer, wiring harness,
custom chip, TPS (if needed), and all the stuff to hook it up.
Chris & Cheryl Bischof
gnttype 13 Nov 1997
- > The Turbo Shop makes a custom harness for the car. You tell
> them where you want to mount the tranny ecm, how long you think
- I found this in my SEMA swag:
The Turbo Shop
1280 Kona Dr.
Compton, CA 90220
(310) 669-8101
- Included in their conversion kit is a conventional speedo tailshaft, plus
all the electronics.
[email protected]
gnttype 13 Nov 1997
- >>Has anybody ever done any investigating into 4L80-Es. Correct me if I'm
>>wrong, but they are basically a Turbo 400 w/ an OD.
- >There was an article in either Car Craft of Hot Rod a couple of months ago.
>I think Art Carr will burn a chip for the TCM and you can use a stand alone
>TCM from A P-chassis Diesel. I think from orund 93 to 95. I can get you the
>part number if you are really interrested.
- That was the November 96' issue of Hot Rod. The swap was made into a 87 GN
that ran mid 10s at 130mph. Some interesting notes from the article,
- *one problem with the 4L80E is that it does not have a mechanical drive
speedometer cable, you need to fabricate a tailshaft housing.
*4L80E uses a traditional driveshaft yoke from a TH400.
*The 4L80E is 100 pounds heavier than a TH400 trans.
*The article states that it required some hammering on the GNs tunnel to get
the trans to fit.
*Over all price is in the range of $2,500-3,000 depending on which converter
is selected (this includes a computer, wiring harness, a chip, and a TPS
for the trans.)
- The article states that Art Carr and The Turbo Shop are both installing
these trannies. One other note, The GN in the article ran the same ETs with
the new trans as it did before with a slight loss in mph due to the extra
weight.
Roy Bond
gnttype 02 Dec 1997
- > pulled over and tried all gears to the same effect. it goes into gear but
> its like it has a 10,000 rpm stall converter, just creeps back or
> forwards. has any one else had this problem. a governer problem or toasted
> pump maybe?
- My guess: Stator support. It comes out the front of the transmission. It
holds that stator in the converter stationary. The original units had non-
hardened splines that over time strip off. There is a hardened version
available that should be used on any quality rebuild.
[email protected] (Eric Wiebrecht)
gnttype 05 Dec 1997
- Took my failed forward clutch shaft to the lab and did some tests on it:
- Rockwell hardness:
40 Rc core (in the middle of the failure site)
42 Rc case (on one of the splines)
- So, the OEM shaft is heat treated. Have heard that welding/heat treatment
has been used to try to beef up this part, but it already is hardened -
doubtful that hardening it twice would make it any stronger. Welding would
probably deform it enough to require re-machining - plus the weld could
create a stress riser.
- Lab Metallurgist indicated that the failure was caused by fatigue induced by
a combination of:
- Less-than full engagement of the mating part (overdrive internal gear)
onto the shaft spline. This was evident by the wear pattern on the
splines - about 1/4" of spline is unused - which happens to be the
torsionally stiffest part of the spline, since it is nearest to the solid
portion of the shaft. This causes the shaft to wind up, putting cyclic
stress on the weaker radius at the bottom of the spline. This radius is
where the shaft snaps in two, causing the driver to get a nice cardio-
vascular workout by pushing the car out of the flow of traffic.
- Spline wear. This creates play between the overdrive internal gear and
the forward clutch shaft, which creates an impact loading situation
similar to an air impact gun (but w/BIG torque - supplied by engine)
hammering away at that little radius. Another analogy is a loose vs. tight
shoulder strap on a seatbelt - with the tight strap, a smaller distance is
traveled before restraint, thus reducing acceleration time, forces
developed, and injury.
- Ron wrote in digest #1274:
> I have had the intermediate shaft break twice in about 2 years
>time. Is there anything I can do to keep this from happening or is it
>one of those "common problems"?
- I asked the Metallurgist the same question - he suggested:
- Try to engage that unused 1/4" of spline (requires moving some stuff
around - not sure if this is possible).
- Replace the overdrive internal gear when a shaft failure occurs - this
will tighten up the spline fit and reduce the impact loads.
Steve Monroe
gnttype 05 Dec 1997
- > > I have had the intermediate shaft break twice in about 2 years
> >time. Is there anything I can do to keep this from happening
- > Took my failed forward clutch shaft to the lab and did some tests on it:
> Rockwell hardness:
> 40 Rc core (in the middle of the failure site)
> 42 Rc case (on one of the splines)
> So, the OEM shaft is heat treated. Have heard that welding/heat
> treatment has been used to try to beef up this part, but it already
> is hardened - doubtful that hardening it twice would make it any
> stronger. Welding would probably deform it enough to require
> re-machining - plus the weld could create a stress riser.
- I Also tested a clutch shaft that had the fillet welded up and the area
adjacent to the weld RC'd @ 20. Failure was due to torsional overload.
Unheated section checked RC38. Not enough mass to get a precise figure but
that was the average. Spectum test, (I think?), indicated the material was
1541 Steel. Wonder what the ideal material f/this shaft would be?
Mike Smith
gnttype 24 Dec 1997
- All 2004R's had 7 vane pumps. The 700R4 had 7 vane till, i think, 89.
[email protected] (Scott W Simpson)
gnttype 12 Jan 1998
- > One more quick question.Can the t.v. cable be hooked up without taking
>the pan off of the tranny?
- Yes and No. If the cable eyelet has come disconnected from the TV rod
inside the valve body, then you'll have to pull the pan. If it is still
connected, whats the question? ;-) More likely than not, if you have pulled
the transmission, you'll have to pull the pan. If the rod has fallen out
into the pan, you'll also need a repair manual or someone who knows how to
re-install and align.
MLyons8884
gnttype 14 Mar 1998
- << Am waiting to get the part number specific to the GNX converter.
<
gnttype 16 Mar 1998
- Well to satisfy my own curiosity, and to support my previous theory, I
hooked up a pressure gauge (US Gauge brand, 3% accuracy) to my 200R4
transmission line pressure port. The following pressure readings (in
p.s.i.g.) were taken at cold engine temp., engine idling:
Gear: Throttle Cable:
MIN. MAX.
P 75 210
R 130 275
N 75 210
OD 75 210
D 75 210
2 160 160
1 155 155
- Conclusions:
The highest pressures (in fwd gears) were obtained in OD/D at max cable
travel (simulating WOT). Pressure in 2/1 DID NOT VARY with cable travel and
WAS LESS than max pressure in OD/D by 50 psi. This agrees with the pressure
table in the shop manual (no suprise there) and from conclusions drawn from
the hydraulic logic diagram.
- Road test:
No suprise, but the results taken while driving were quite the same as the
static test. The pressure while in 1 or 2 DID NOT VARY with either engine
speed or throttle opening and WAS LESS THAN the highest pressure in OD/D by
50 psi. The pressure in OD/D of course varied with throttle opening and was
highest at WOT, lowest at idle.
- Notes:
- Transmission was stock rebuild with selected springs (pressure regulator,
line bias & TV) shimmed.
- The "Throttle Cable" cloumn indicates the position of the throttle cable,
"Min" was of course throttle closed and "Max" was acheived by pulling the
trans cable forward fully (engine still idling)
- Warm engine readings were slightly less, but with the throttle revved
slightly, I got the same numbers. This indicates a worn transmission pump.
- Bottom Line:
For best pressures, leave it in D/OD and fine tune the governor/cable to
optimize shift points,unless you want lower line pressure then leave it in
2nd. Numbers don't lie. If someone tells you different, ask them to prove it
(with a gauge).
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