From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  1 04:18:12 1993
Subject: Emulsified Fuels
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4298

Previously, I posted some stuff about a guy runnig a water/fuel emulsion in his
porsche that John said sounded "magic-elixir"-ish.  After his comment, I saw
a couple of articles in rec.autos that implied there were indeed water-emulsion
engines with about 75% combustion efficiency in existence, but that none were
in this country. This prompted me to do an online literature search, and I foundthat there are few papers about it from various sources. I'm gonna check out
the papers, and see what I can find, but some of the stuff may be over my head.
Should I post the document list, or will some kind soul volunteer to help me
with the difficult parts?

I'll post my findings.

Vince Reed
vince@jsrvx1.ucsf.edu

----------
Posted by: Vince Reed 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  1 04:23:51 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4299


-> I think it was on CNN last night--they ran a story about an
-> inventory in Nevada who had mixed 1 part water with 1 part
-> gas, added some detergent, and ended up with a white liquid.
....
-> [This thread could easily degenerate into a magic elixir discussion
-> which is against the charter of this list so let's keep this focused
-> on hotrodding.
...
-> literally before I could dry it.  JGD]


 I don't think anyone here on the list is gullible enough to believe the
claims for burning watered gas.  That one didn't even fly in r.a.t. a
few months ago when it came up.

 I saved most of those messages, though I haven't had time to go back
through and grok them in fullness yet.  Some of the people in the group
did (or claimed to do) various experiments with gasoline, water, and
detergents, and managed to get the engines to run.

 From what I understand of how emissions are generated and emission
controls work, I don't see how it could help reduce smog.  Putting water
in ain't gonna make more power than gas either.  However, there were
some rather interesting theories and claims in the discussion, mainly
about what the fuel droplets/fog would look like.  The general feeling
was that the water, having a high surface tension, would pull into
droplets first, with the fuel then collecting as a layer on the outside.
This would give a good surface area for combustion, which would
basically stop as it hit the water underneath.  One theory was that,
with a water and detergent mix, it might be possible to push a little
harder against the lean misfire limit in a particular motor.  With
proper tuning, this might help economy a small amount, though neither
Honda nor Chrysler's Lean Burn schemes seem to have been all that great.

 The literature tells us the engine will run with just about any
amount of water short of hydraulic locking the thing.  However, for a
normal engine, it doesn't get you much.  The water displaces fuel at low
flows, which isn't good for power.  When you turn the hose on full, it
starts displacing air too.  Boo, hiss.

 So far, a dud.  Now let's look at yer generic high boost turbocharged
engine, like, for example, John's Z.  John has mentioned the car's
full-boost thirst for water more than once.  As far as I know, he's
simply shooting water somewhere upstream and letting it go where it
will, which isn't all that bad.  

[Yes, I just spray the water stream directly at the turbo fan through
a tap under the throttle and let the turbo fold, spindle, mutillate
and otherwise homogenize the mix.  JGD]

However, by getting the water and fuel
together and (probably more importantly) using detergent to minimize
recombination from vapor into droplets, it's possible he might (1) be
able to use the water more efficiently and therefore (2) use less of it.
Now, if this gas-over-water "egg" theory is correct, it might not help
the anti-detonant properties much, but then it'd be worth an experiment
to find out.

[I have not ruled out the value of water addition, whether injected or
emulsified.  After all, water injected engines DO make more power
when tuned to take advantage of the water.  There may be a good sound
physics basis for what water does, I'm just not aware of it at the
moment.  My major concern is that we avoid the kind of perpetual motion
machine posts that makes r.a.* so noisy.  

It seems to me like the best way to make a stable gas/water emulsion
would be to use the same homogenation process used in milk processing.
That is, force the gas and water through tiny openings under high pressure
in order to create droplets too small to coalesce.  I wonder if a 
high pressure car wash pump like the one I have in my shop would
generate enough pressure.  Hmmmmm.  A stable emulsion might just address
most of the negatives of conventional water injection, things like
the necessity of two tanks and support systems and the fact that water
freezes. Another thought is a water rich working fluid might be better
than just combustion products.  Anyone up to doing the calculations?
JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  1 04:45:51 1993
Subject: Inital Cam Advance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4300


->    I understand that the 4 degree advance helps low-end torque,
-> which is the goal of this motor.   Now, when I install the cam, do I:

 How does Wolverine say to install it?  Sig, for example, keys their
over-the-counter cams to an "average" application, but sometimes
recommends the cam be advanced for retarded for your particular car.
                                                                                                    

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  1 14:40:58 1993
Subject: Re: The Calls I get
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4301

sfu.ca!jimd (Jim Davies) writes:
"> The Chrysler Turbine had mufflers large enough to stuff children into.
">Hmmm... possibly a good use for excess rug rats.
">                                                             
"
"Wasnt it WC Fields who said "theres nothing wrong with little children,
"as long as they are properly cooked"

and robert bloch, when accused of being twisted and macabre, said
'actually, i have the heart of a child.

i keep it in a jar on my desk...'
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  1 14:46:36 1993
Subject: Re: Inital Cam Advance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4302

Bob Valentine  (ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu) writes:
"The cam I've selected (Wolverine grind, something like 204/214 @ .050)
"is ground 4 degrees advanced.   I have a roller chain with the
"advanceable/retardable/netural crank sprocket.   
"     I understand that the 4 degree advance helps low-end torque,
"which is the goal of this motor.   Now, when I install the cam, do I:
" 
"     1: Install crank gear "straight up", for a total of 4 degrees
"        intitial advance.
"     2: Install crank gear +4 degrees, for a total of 8 degrees 
"        intital advance.
"     3. Install crank gear -4 degrees, so the cam is effectivly 
"        "straight up"

crank the engine and check compression; the setting that gives you the
most pressure will also give the most torque.
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

[That can't be true.  Any advancment of the cam so that the intake valve
closes sooner on the compression stroke will raise the static compression.
Advancing the cam to the point where the intake closes at BDC will give the
maximum compression but surely will not give the best torque.  JGD]

----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  1 14:51:09 1993
Subject: Inital Cam Advance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4303

>>>
>>>    Well, in a week I'm about to finally put together that Olds 350
>>>that I've been bothering everyone about for the last 2 months...
>>>One last question, if I may:
>>>
>>>     The cam I've selected (Wolverine grind, something like 204/214 @ .050)
>>>is ground 4 degrees advanced.   I have a roller chain with the
>>>advanceable/retardable/netural crank sprocket.   
>>>     I understand that the 4 degree advance helps low-end torque,
>>>which is the goal of this motor.   Now, when I install the cam, do I:
>>> 
>>>     1: Install crank gear "straight up", for a total of 4 degrees
>>>        intitial advance.
>>>     2: Install crank gear +4 degrees, for a total of 8 degrees 
>>>        intital advance.
>>>     3. Install crank gear -4 degrees, so the cam is effectivly 
>>>        "straight up"

I'd suggest installing the cam "straight up" (answer #1). As the timing chain
stretches, You use off-set cam bushings in the "straight up" position to 
Further advance the cam. 

You shouldn't mess with the manufacturer's marks. They set it that way for a 
reason. 

My .02 worth...

-dan a.
dhoward@sw.stratus.com


----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  1 14:53:33 1993
Subject: Emulsified Fuels
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4304


-> the papers, and see what I can find, but some of the stuff may be
-> over my head. Should I post the document list, or will some kind soul
-> volunteer to help me with the difficult parts?

 I'd be happy to help.  Might not be worth much, but we could be
confused together.   
                                

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  1 14:59:55 1993
Subject: NHRA Coverage on TNN (April)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4305


[From TNN]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

		   DON "THE SNAKE" PRUDHOMME LOOKS FOR REPEAT WINS
		       ON THE NHRA WINSTON DRAG RACING CIRCUIT

      Nashville, Tenn. -- February 23, 1993-- With over 27 years of drag 
racing experience and 46 nitro-burning NHRA National event titles under 
his belt, Don "The Snake" Prudhomme is consistent. "The Snake" will be
looking for repeat quarter-mile wins in April at tracks in North 
Carolina and Georgia, and TNN: The Nashville Network will provide live 
coverage of the final professional rounds in special one-hour telecasts 
hosted by Steve Evans.
      Live NHRA Winston Drag Racing kicks off in April with the Winston 
Invitational from Rockingham Dragway in Rockingham, NC., on Sunday, 
April 4, at 5:00 PM (all times Eastern). On Sunday, April 25, at 5:00 
PM, live coverage of the NHRA Fram Southern Nationals will air from 
Atlanta Dragway in Commerce, Ga.
      The NHRA Winston Invitational is the annual all-star event with no 
points going to the overall championship. Last year, on the day before 
his 51st birthday, Prudhomme out-reacted Winston Top Fuel Champion Joe 
Amato with a 4.99 to 4.98 elapsed time victory. Mark Oswald took the 
Funny Car win and Jerry Eckman the Pro Stock victory.
      "The Snake" picked up championship points at last year's Fram
Southern Nationals winning the 44th event race of his career. Again he 
beat out Amato, who fell back due to a blown head gasket. John Force and 
Don Beverley captured the wins in Funny Car and Pro Stock.
      Don "The Snake" Prudhomme is the winningest nitro driver in the
history of NHRA Winston Drag Racing with 46 wins over his 27 year-
career. He won four consecutive Winston World championships in the 
1970s. In 1990 the legendary Funny Car champion switched to the Top Fuel 
division and today has 11 wins to his credit.

__________________________________________________________________________
Bill Stoffel              |  CARDEROCKDIV, NSWC  |<- x-DTRC               |
stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil |  Code 859            |   x-NSRDC              |
(410) 267-3825            |  Annapolis, MD 21402 |   x-DTNSRDC (et alia)  |
_________________________________________________|________________________|

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!stoffel (William Stoffel)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:09:44 1993
Subject: Re: Inital Cam Advance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4306

I also vote for door number 1, straight up.  However, what did
the manufacturer say? I run an ISKY 280 MEGA Cam which came with
very specific direction to install it straight up. I vote with Dave 
Williams, though and follow the manufacturers directions.Cheers!
mgb


===========================================================================
Michael G. Brattland (brattlan@cyber.net) | 1923 Ford Roadster
600 Coldstream Drive                      |  (Ford 302, Tri-Power,
El Cajon, CA 92020-7721                   |  4 spd, 9 inch)
619 444-1944 (H)                          | 1971 Porsche 911T
619 553-7814 (W)                          |  (Carbs & 5 spd, Orig Owner)
                                          | 1988 Ford F150 4x4
    "3 Deuces and a 4 speed!"             |  (302, 5 spd)
                                          | Ex-Jeepster Commando Owner
For Tech Info on Ford Small and Big Block Tri-Powers, e-mail me!
===========================================================================

----------
Posted by: "Michael G. Brattland" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:14:12 1993
Subject: Re: Inital Cam Advance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4307

You sent a response about setting cam timing but I wasn't the author
of the question :-).  You may wish to re-address your reply and send
it again.

Best regards,

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: emory!UCSD.EDU!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:18:38 1993
Subject: RE: Emulsified Fuels
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4308


Dave, 
	Thanks for your offer. Tonite, I'll see how many of the dozen or so 
papers I found are actually available in the library.

Vince

----------
Posted by: Vince Reed 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:23:01 1993
Subject: Re: Inital Cam Advance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4309

> 
> I'd suggest installing the cam "straight up" (answer #1). As the timing chain
> stretches, You use off-set cam bushings in the "straight up" position to 
> Further advance the cam. 
> 
> You shouldn't mess with the manufacturer's marks. They set it that way for a 
> reason. 
  ^^^^^^
Boy I'll say, large tolerances in manufacturing for one.
 

-- 
 "There's no such thing as fast enough!"  | Mark Walker
     (Or something to that effect...)     | mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu
                James Taylor              | 505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)
                _Two_Lane_Blacktop_       | Albuquerque, NM

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:28:03 1993
Subject: Factory Literature for Sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4310

FACTORY LITERATURE: 

	I am reducing my collection of factory sales literature as the
bins are full.  The collection starts in the late 60's, is very complete
during the 70's and complete in the 80's and 90's.  Primarily American cars.
	Included are catalogs from all of the big 3, plus AMC.  There are
also limited amounts of Mercedes, Volvo, Saab, Mazda in certain years. 
Also have American truck literature for many years.  Some oddball stuff too, 
like Jensen Interceptor, Vespa, Chrysler and Ford Police Cars, kit cars,
performance parts catalogs.  Shop manuals for '68 Chrysler, '69 Plymouth, 
'79 Chrysler (2 sets), 88 Beretta/Corsica, Mercury Outboards.
	Can't list it all here; send wants list and your e-mail address to:  
digi!devel!nwilmart     I will reply with what I have, condition and price.
Prices will be reasonable, this is not a business.

----------
Posted by: emory!digi.lonestar.org!leonis!NWILMART (NED)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:34:28 1993
Subject: Re: Do gas and water mix? 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4311



> Date:  Sun, 28 Feb 93 22:55 EST
> From:  Dave W. and JGD
> 
>

I will add my few cents worth of comments based upon past experimentation,
and the little I remember from obtaining a chemistry degree.

	<...Stuff deleted...>

> The literature tells us the engine will run with just about any
>amount of water short of hydraulic locking the thing.  However, for a
>normal engine, it doesn't get you much.  The water displaces fuel at low
>flows, which isn't good for power.  When you turn the hose on full, it
>starts displacing air too.  Boo, hiss.

My experience tells me the same.  I used to spray water into the top of the
carb on my old, old Mustang.  It is amazing how much you can push into an
engine, and how poorly is runs just before it locks up.  This is also a test
of piston/rod/crank strength.  My rods always lost :-(.

> So far, a dud.  Now let's look at yer generic high boost turbocharged
>engine, like, for example, John's Z.  John has mentioned the car's
>full-boost thirst for water more than once.  As far as I know, he's
>simply shooting water somewhere upstream and letting it go where it
>will, which isn't all that bad.  

>[Yes, I just spray the water stream directly at the turbo fan through
>a tap under the throttle and let the turbo fold, spindle, mutillate
>and otherwise homogenize the mix.  JGD]

I have since graduated from carb class and have now entered Turbo/EFI school.
I have learned that water does bad things to fuel injectors and Mass Air
sensors.  I am now experimenting with injecting the water into the air
stream after the Mass Air sensor and before the turbo (for the same reasons
that John mentioned).  Of course, this messes up the A/F computations, but
it is nothing that a water flow sensor and a couple thousand lines of code
won't cure :-)!  My sole purpose for the water injection is to run more
boost without detonation.

>However, by getting the water and fuel
>together and (probably more importantly) using detergent to minimize
>recombination from vapor into droplets, it's possible he might (1) be
>able to use the water more efficiently and therefore (2) use less of it.
>Now, if this gas-over-water "egg" theory is correct, it might not help
>the anti-detonant properties much, but then it'd be worth an experiment
>to find out.

The only way you can get a gas/water "mix" is to use a detergent.  Without it,
gas and water will separate faster than money and your wallet when you are
building performance vehicles.  If you want to put them into the same
container, and keep the gas/water ratio fairly constant, this is the only
way.

>[I have not ruled out the value of water addition, whether injected or
>emulsified.  After all, water injected engines DO make more power
>when tuned to take advantage of the water.  There may be a good sound
>physics basis for what water does, I'm just not aware of it at the
>moment.  My major concern is that we avoid the kind of perpetual motion
>machine posts that makes r.a.* so noisy.  

>It seems to me like the best way to make a stable gas/water emulsion
>would be to use the same homogenation process used in milk processing.
>That is, force the gas and water through tiny openings under high pressure
>in order to create droplets too small to coalesce.  I wonder if a 
>high pressure car wash pump like the one I have in my shop would
>generate enough pressure.  Hmmmmm.  A stable emulsion might just address
>most of the negatives of conventional water injection, things like
>the necessity of two tanks and support systems and the fact that water
>freezes. Another thought is a water rich working fluid might be better
>than just combustion products.  Anyone up to doing the calculations?
>JGD]
>----------
>Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
> 


I don't think your homogenation process will work, but don't let me stop
you!  There is something about compressing gasoline to very high pressures
(high hundreds or low thousands of PSI found in the car wash pump) that is
not appealing to me :-).  The gas and water will soon separate, since the
molecules don't want to be next to each other.  I also like injecting water
separate of the gasoline mixture.  I can control the mixture ratio to meet
the engine requirements (water lasts longer), and to keep it from freezing,
just mix in some ethanol.  Now you have the advantage of oxygenating the
mixture.

So what does the water really do?  First, it cools the intake mixture.
Does the temperature drop increase the air density?  I don't know, this is
probably the first calculation since you have to account for the additional
H2Os running around.  I know I do inject more fuel, so this would indicate
a more dense air mixture.  The water will serve as a combustion "contaminate"
and will slow down the flame, further reducing detonation.  If liquid water
is entering the combustion chamber, then some of the heat from the combustion
is used to vaporize the water.  Since this lowers the combustion temperature
it would seem that power output would decrease, but then you have to account
for the expansion of the water from liquid to gas.

Lot's of computing and measuring.  Guess I have another project for the dyno!
I don't have the ability to do the computations anymore, but I will seek out
an old chemistry friend (that still does it for a living) for some help.

Like John, I know this water injection works, in an engine designed to
take advantage of it.  But you have to be careful with corrosion of the new
EFI stuff, and too much water is not a good thing.


	-- Dan

----------
Posted by: Dan Malek 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:39:43 1993
Subject: HRMx update
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4312

Last week I mentioned that Hot Rod Mechanix (HRMx) was going live again.
Mike B asked about the Tex Smith Books.

Tex wrote to me,
   "Starting about umpteenth reprint of first of the books, will have full
    line of 11 available by late spring, then adding 3 or 4 more new titles
    this year late."


If you want to contact Tex directly: 
   
   Tex Smith Publishing
   29 East Wallace
   PO Box 726
   Driggs, ID 83422
   (208)354-8133

----------
Posted by: Dave Tartaglia 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:45:14 1993
Subject: Re: Inital Cam Advance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4313

>crank the engine and check compression; the setting that gives you the
>most pressure will also give the most torque.
>
>		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com
>
>[That can't be true.  Any advancment of the cam so that the intake valve
>closes sooner on the compression stroke will raise the static compression.
>Advancing the cam to the point where the intake closes at BDC will give the
>maximum compression but surely will not give the best torque.  JGD]
>
Actually, it sounds to me like it would indeed give the best torque _at_ _~0_
_RPM_.  The problem is that this is a waste of a cam which is ground for high
RPM operation.

David Wright

----------
Posted by: David Wright 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:50:08 1993
Subject: Re: The Calls I get
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4314

    Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1993 15:41 EST
    From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)

    -> By the way, How loud is this thing going to be installed in a car?

     The Chrysler Turbine had mufflers large enough to stuff children into.
    Hmmm... possibly a good use for excess rug rats.
                                                             
This wouldn't work.  Although they appear to be soft and
sound-absorbant, they have a nasty set of resonances.
Furthermore, contrary to some outmoded theories of pediacoustics, they
are essentially untunable.

The following is taken from the latest issue of 
  Journal Of Mammals in Acoustic Muffler Applications (JO MAMA):

"...[They]  are  also  capable  of  an,  as  yet  unexplained,  form  of
amplification whereby any low level  input, particularly from a  sibling
(known in  some  literature  as  a  fraternal  rug  rat, or frat rat for
short), converts stored  energy into  short piercing  bursts of acoustic
waves.  These  bursts  are  apparently  sufficiently  wide  band  to  be
resonant with virtually everything; they have been observed to burst ear
drums, glasses  and  memorex  tapes.   

[They  almost  certainly will also damage turbine blades.
 The article continues ... ]

Another problem for this application is a seemingly inexhaustible supply
of extremely corrosive liquids, a property similar to a related organism
known as Caninus  Territorius.  Attempts  to prepare  small children for
similar experiments has found that  after even 7 desications,  they were
able to produce additional, damaging quantities of the fluid.
"

    ----------
    Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 


  bruce
  miller@cam.nist.gov
  

----------
Posted by: Bruce R. Miller 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 04:55:47 1993
Subject: Re: SBC hydraulic lfter adjustment
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4315

> -> > >  Kelmark kit?  Do you have a current address for Kelmark?  >
> 
> -> Unfortunately, they ceased business at least a decade ago.  For
> -> awhile they were MidEngineering (also of Okemos (sp?), Michigan), but
> -> that didn't last long as far as I know
> 
>  Drat.  I wonder how they managed to foul it up.  For a while there they
> had an oar in every pond - fiberglass bodies for your VW kit car, tube
> frame, mid engined V8 chassis to slide under your abandoned Beetle
> shell, mid-engine sports car kits combining the first two products, and
> a mid-engine sports car based on some sort of FWD drivetrain.  I saw a
> couple of articles on the mid engined, V8 powered Beetles.  Sure would
> give a Porsche owner a hard time.  
 
Yeah, they did seem in over their heads with the Ferrari lookalike body
and the various chassis/drive train configurations.  They even had a
kit to take a 4-spd (Borg-Warner I think) and use it in a transverse
RWD setup.  I was sure sorry to see them go.

> -> I was interested in the BOP 215 V8 conversion for awhile, but they
> -> didn't know when they would manufacture any of the parts (and there
> -> is the problem with the bell housings being cast aluminum and not a
> -> steel safety housing, as well as lubrication and strength
> -> difficulties from running the transaxle backwards).
> 
>  I've never heard of any problems with running the transaxle backwards -
> are you sure there's something it doesn't like?  The Porsche 914 and
> zillions of Formula Vees do it.

The recommendation was to use the '66-'69 transaxle as it was
significantly more substantial.  The concerns were lubrication, loading
and lower strength in the differential due to the use of the coast rather
than the drive faces of the ring and pinion gears during acceleration.

As you can imagine, a large side load in the differential would be
caused by the coast (now driven) gear tooth faces not being ~90 degrees
to the plane of rotation like the drive (now coasting) faces.  The
reverse rotation also reduced the lubrication between ring and pinion
because the angled coast face lost most of the oil it picked up in the
bottom of the diff, on it's way around to meet the pinion.  I've seen
oil pumps and special covers for the Corvair diff that would direct
additional oil to the meshing ring and pinion.

My personal experience was good with '66 transaxles.  Of the two I had,
the one that died was the one I adjusted the pinion/ring gears on
myself to reduce gear lash due to many many miles of driving.  I took
the other to a GM mechanic for adjustment before running it in the car,
and it seemed to hold up well, at least for prowling the streets and
embarasing my high school buddies.  Don't know if it would have held up
to extended highway miles or real drag racing, but I doubt it.

> -> There was also the alternative of going rear engine like Jeff Brekke
> -> of Lakeland FL did with a Buick V6 (last summer's Car Craft and
> -> [Popular] Hot Rod[ding] I believe, had blurbs on this car).  He
> -> reversed the rotation of the V6 and put it where the stock engine
> -> was.  (I sure wonder about oversteer in that car...)
> 
>  Hmm.  Opening up my magic data file, we find:  Corvair flat-6, 300
> pounds, Buick V6 375 pounds.  That's 75 pounds difference, which you
> could probably regain with no trouble by moving the spare tire and
> battery to the front.  In actuality, I doubt changed weight distribution
> would do as much as the raised rear mass, which would affect weight
> transfer.  Still, it'd be pretty small overall.  Frankly, I think the
> Buick V6 in a Corvair would be a tuff swap.  For a Turbo Corvair, just
> use the GNX motor.  
 
And hang onto your hat!

> -> I've pretty much decided if I build another '65 Corvair, I'll use a
> -> modern FWD powertrain in a RWD configuration.
> 
>  There's plenty of room at the firewall and so forth.  I've seen one or
> two, but they were pretty much hack jobs though.  (one was on a
> shortened, but not narrowed '55 Chevy chassis - ugh)  Find an early
> Tempest rear and you could keep the rear trans and IRS!

I actually had in mind the use of a transverse front wheel drivetrain
located in the Corvair engine bay.  Another possibility would be a
Fiero transaxle with an appropriately healthy powerplant.  I would like
to avoid losing the backseat to the powerplant this time however, and
am planning a review of the library's collection of Chilton's service
manuals to locate suitable donor configurations.  I'm even willing to
move the rear wheelwells back to get such a combo to work out, and have
sketched up two body configurations to get an idea of how much room can
be gained without screwing up the appearance of the car.  (What the
heck, may as well plan it even if I never get to build it.)

> -> though as much as I would like to build one; brought a '60 Pontiac
> -> Catalina 2DR sport coupe (389, 2 barrel, Hydramatic) home 2 weekends
> -> ago for replacing my '78 SAAB 99 daily driver.  Needs a new interior,
> -> a bit of bodywork and there just HAS to be a better powertrain...
> -> ;^)
> 
>  There's nothing wrong with the 389, but 400s are dirt-common for a
> simple power increase, and the modern parts will fit.  Pontiac did some
> rearranging of bolt patterns and stuff in the early '60s.  The top dogs
> are the 421, 428, and 455, but they're getting hard to find.

>From a nostalgia standpoint I would like to go with a 421 or 428 and a
manual 4 spd, but for various reasons, have settled on: late model,
electronically fuel injected, and automatic trans with overdrive as the
parameters for the swap which I hope to do this coming winter or next
summer.  Now I just have to educate myself as to the "hot setups" in
this arena.  (Haven't decided if staying Pontiac is important enough to
me to bias my selection yet though.)

I just feel the urge to build a counter example to show to the clunker
crushing crowd, but never fear, I hope to slip a Corvette rearend under
this Cat' to ensure it is unmistakeably a rod.

> ----------
> Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)

-- 
 "There's no such thing as fast enough!"  | Mark Walker
     (Or something to that effect...)     | mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu
                James Taylor              | 505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)
                _Two_Lane_Blacktop_       | Albuquerque, NM

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 05:01:37 1993
Subject: Re: SBC hydraulic lfter adjustment
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4316

In article <#b_tbpb@dixie.com>, hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> 
> > There's nothing wrong with the 389, but 400s are dirt-common for a
> >simple power increase, and the modern parts will fit.  Pontiac did some
> >rearranging of bolt patterns and stuff in the early '60s.  The top dogs
> >are the 421, 428, and 455, but they're getting hard to find.
> 
> Dont forget that those old pontiac engines had adifferent bell housing
> pattern at the back of the block. I think they changed to the BOP

And man, does the "old" stuff look wierd!  (well, the transmission does
anyway...)

> rabbit ear setup in 63-64. Of course, no one would want to use the newer
> style engine with one of those *funny* hydromatic thingies from the late
> '50s early '60s, right? Just remember: late style engine, late style 
> trans.

Agreed, after all, I do want it to all hang together and be
serviceable, (and be cool); so it's late model all the way.  I also
figure the whole drive train might be useful to someone doing a
restoration, and it would be fun to see the heartbeat of this Cat live
on in another vintage Pontiac.

> JD
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!sfu.ca!jimd (Jim Davies)

-- 
 My old man always said:		| Mark Walker
	"Too much is just right!"	| mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu
 Guess that applies to my preferences	| 505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)
 in performance cars.			| Albuquerque, NM

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 05:07:05 1993
Subject: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4317

I just finished repairing an MSD-7al for a friend.  Blue smoke leaked out.
Lesson here.  Don't try to run one of these things on those 16 volt
racing batteries.  Too many positrons er somethin'.

After figuring out how the thing works in order to fix it, I'm impressed.
Brute force engineering at its finest.  First a little background.

A capacitor discharge ignition is a pretty simple critter.  An inverter
steps up 12 volts to about 400 volts and charges a capacitor.  When the unit
is triggered, an SCR dumps the capacitor charge into the coil which serves
as a transformer.  A coil typically has a turns ratio of 100:1 so the 
output voltage can rise to 40,000 volts or better.

The typical internal connection consists of a transformer driven by a
chopper followed by a diode rectifier and then to one terminal of the
storage capacitor.  The other side of the cap connects to the coil and
the coil connects to ground.  The SCR anode is connected to the
cap-rectifier junction and the cathode is grounded.  The low charging
current flows through the coil and then when the ignition is fired, the
SCR shunts the cap and inverter to ground, effectively placing the
charged cap in parallel with the coil.  The charge dumps to the coil and
spark happens.  This scheme keeps the coil terminals cold except during
firing so there is no shock hazard.

A problem arises in commutating the SCR (turning it off).  The current through
an SCR must drop to zero for it to turn back off.  Since the inverter
is also shunted by the SCR, it continues supplying current through the SCR
even after the charge is dumped and thus will keep the SCR turned on.  I've
built and seen in other commercial units all kinds of schemes such as 
gating the inverter off during firing.  The problem with most of these scheme
is they introduce added delays which limit the RPM capability.

Now let's consider the MSD.  Not only is the MSD a high powered CDI, it 
fires multiple sparks during each firing event.  That puts a severe
time constraint on the inverter and commutation scheme.  The multiple 
sparks happen about 1 millisecond apart.  This means the capacitor has
to charge and the spark happen in this interval.  How do they do it?

Very elegantly, as a matter of fact.  The first indication was when I 
opened the case and noticed the inverter transistor with 12 gauge 
windings emerging from it.  Heavy duty.  Then I noted that the two fairly
high power transistors (2n5884) are connected in PARALLEL.  Very heavy
duty.  Then I noticed that the energy storage cap only had voltage on it
when the unit was firing but no other time. Hmm.  Time to investigate.

A little poking around with a scope showed how they do it.  Instead of the
inverter being a typical chopper, it is designed so that ONE single 
half-cycle is enough to charge the cap!  When the trigger comes in from
the distributor, the inverter fires one 300 microsecond pulse that
charges the cap and then the SCR fires which dumps an 80 microsecond
pulse to the coil.  This whole sequence repeats every millisecond up to 
about 8 times during one cylinder firing.

All this happens with nothing more complicated than a few transistors.
No ICs, no microprocessors, just some transistors.

This sequence, aside from being elegant and fascinating, has some 
real world implications.  This single pulse that charges the capacitor
draws a peak current of over 35 amps from the 12 volt supply!  The average
current - what your ammeter would see - is << 8 amps.  If the unit is 
connected to a power source appropriate for only this 8 amp load, the 
amount of energy delivered to the spark plugs will be severely limited.
A heavy, direct connection to a low impedance battery is an absolute must.
Even a fuse offers too much resistance.  I've seen installations even in 
Pro Stock cars that fail miserably in this regard.  This one fact may 
account for the fact that some racers say the MSD box does not work 
very well while others love it.

The next implication is this pulse of current is capable of introducing severe
EMI into other electronics on-board.  Particularly if the ignition is run
through a fuseblock.

MSD sells an optional capacitor (non-optional for the MSD-8) for the 12
volt leads that is highly recommended.  Their cap's retail price is pretty
severe but any 15 volt electrolytic cap of 100,000 uF or more will work 
fine.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 14:42:40 1993
Subject: TFS Heads
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4318

I have a set of TFS aluminum Windsor heads bare for $850, if anyone is
interested.

-Bob


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
| Unix Consultant   |-------------------------------------------------------|
| Consultant to MCI | Phone:719-535-1322 | Internet:rmwise@apdev.mci.com    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: emory!mcigate.apdev.mci.com!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 14:47:11 1993
Subject: Holley Pro-Jection
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4319


Hello, fellow hot-rodders --

Has anyone tried the Holley Pro-Jection throttle-body fuel injection system?
I am considering getting one, but I would like some input before spending
the $600-$900 for one.

For the sake of reference, I have a 1979 Z28 Camaro with a Chevy H.O. 350
engine (345 hp).  I'm currently using an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor (600 cfm),
with headers and dual-exhaust.  The car has 4-speed manual transmission, 3.73
limited-slip rear-end gear ratio.  I'm getting about 14 mpg city, 17 freeway.
The car is very fast (beats a lot of motorcycles off the line), but I am
power-greedy and want to make it faster.  >:-)

Should I consider the small-block (2 injectors) fuel injection unit for $600,
or should I consider the big-block (4 injectors) fuel injection unit for
the $900?  (Or, neither?)  I know one guy who got the 2-injector unit, and it
gave nice, smooth mid-range torque but wimped out above 4500-5000 rpm.  Also,
he didn't get as good of fuel-economy as he did with his Quadrajet.  Would the
4-injector unit provide even more torque & power, over a wider rpm range?
Would the fuel economy be worse?

Helpful input is much appreciated.

[Keep your carb and save your bux until you can afford a port injection
system.  Pro-jection is worse than a carb by just about any measure.
I know.  I have one.  JGD]

=======================================================================
#    Big Bad Biblical Bogus    #   _  ,/|    #    AAAAAAAAAAAAACK!    #
#        Bill "the Cat"        #  '\`o O'    #    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!    #
#    Bach Brahms Beethoven     #   =(_^_)=   #    THPPPPPPPPPPPPT!    #
#         Brassfield           #     |U|     #      snort drool       #
=======================================================================

----------
Posted by: emory!hobo.ece.orst.edu!brassfw (William Brassfield)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 14:52:06 1993
Subject: RE: Factory Literature for Sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4320

>	Can't list it all here; send wants list and your e-mail address to:  
>digi!devel!nwilmart 

Sorry to send this to the list, but my email to this address bounces back.
Could you please email directly to me?

Thanks,
Ron

mellum@skyler.mavd.honeywell.com

   

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 14:57:33 1993
Subject: Re: Do gas and water mix?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4321

 Does water injection at cruise (medium-high vacuum, low load) provide 
the same MPG benefit as EGR? Seems that a vacuum-demand water shooter
would let the cylinders fill up with inert gas just like EGR. The 
discussion so far seems aimed at the high end; is there benefit to 
full-time water injection, or maybe even a two-circuit setup? One
for high vacuum and one for high demand?

 Maybe somebody can rig up water injection that runs standalone using
a knock sensor to close the metering loop? Might be a good DIY article 
for PE...


[Good old fashioned air works well and doesn't require any storage space.
I posted an article a month or so ago to rec.autos.tech about an air
induction system I designed for my El Camino over 10 years ago that pushed
the smallblock mileage up over 25 mpg on the highway.  I can dig it out
and post it here if anyone is interested.

I've thought about a closed loop water injection system but I've not yet
come up with a good metering unit.  Conventional fuel injectors lock up
so fast you can almost hear it in the presence of water.  conventional
solenoid valves are too slow.  Any suggestions?  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 15:47:55 1993
Subject: Re: Do gas and water mix?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4322


>> So far, a dud.  Now let's look at yer generic high boost turbocharged
>>engine, like, for example, John's Z.  John has mentioned the car's
>>full-boost thirst for water more than once.  As far as I know, he's
>>simply shooting water somewhere upstream and letting it go where it
>>will, which isn't all that bad.  

	In my turbo 240Z I use windsheild washer fluid. I don't have to worry 
about it freezing, and it has that detergent aspect that helps with the mixing.

	I use a single modified SU with dual float bowls. The WW fluid is
injected right at the input of the carb. It sprays a very fine stream
directly into the carb. The injection comes on around 5psi and stays on until
the maximum boost (20psi). I know that without it, I can't run it under boost
without pinging.

	Just thought I would throw in my limited experience with the subject.

	Pete

	IZCC #55

----------
Posted by: emory!ll.mit.edu!psanders (Peter Sanders)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 15:51:59 1993
Subject: Re: Factory Literature for Sale 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4323

Sorry to post this to the group, I couldn't e-mail directly.


I am interested in any 1969 Boss 302 literature you may have.
Please let me know the details if you do.   
			--Thanks,
				Kevin


******************************************************
Kevin McIntyre -  Hewlett-Packard, Boise Division
e-mail: kmcintyr@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
address: P.O. Box 15, Boise, ID  83707  M/S 130
fax: 208-323-3457
phone: 208-323-2567

These are my opinions only and don't mean anything
to anyone else... well... ok, maybe to my cat.
******************************************************


----------
Posted by: Kevin McIntyre - HP Boise Printer Division 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 16:31:43 1993
Subject: Re: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4324

In article  jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>MSD sells an optional capacitor (non-optional for the MSD-8) for the 12
>volt leads that is highly recommended.  Their cap's retail price is pretty
>severe but any 15 volt electrolytic cap of 100,000 uF or more will work 
>fine.

Sounds like a perfect application for one (or more) of those low-ESR
electrolytics made for switch mode power supplies.  You might even be
able to put a fuse on the battery side of the cap.

 -- Chuck Fry  Chucko@freud.arc.nasa.gov


-- 
     Chuck Fry  chucko@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov  chucko@freud.arc.nasa.gov
   Join the Silicon Valley protest against 55 MPH!  Email me for details.
	    I alone bear responsibility for the claptrap above.

----------
Posted by: emory!freud.arc.nasa.gov!chucko (Chuck Fry)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 16:57:17 1993
Subject: F-body mailing list?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4325

Sorry to ask this here, but I lost netnews access awhile back...
Could someone post or Email me the F-body mail list address ???

Thanks... Greg
gag@arlvax.psu.edu

----------
Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 17:00:45 1993
Subject: Re: Factory Literature for Sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4326

What do you have literature-wise regarding the 1978 Pontiacs... particularly
the 78 Trans Am?

Sam

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Sam Patton -=> spatton@lamar.colostate.edu                               |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: emory!lamar.ColoState.EDU!spatton (Samuel Patton)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 17:05:20 1993
Subject: Re: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4327

John gives a good explanation of how the MSD 7 works.  Does this
same design apply to the MSD 6 and MSD 8?

[I know it does with the -6 based on the current waveform I've observed
on the power terminals of my -6.  Dunno about the -8 though I'd bet
on it.  JGD]

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!UCSD.EDU!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 17:10:01 1993
Subject: RE: Factory Literature for Sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4328

>>	Can't list it all here; send wants list and your e-mail address to:  
>>digi!devel!nwilmart 
>
>Sorry to send this to the list, but my email to this address bounces back.
>Could you please email directly to me?
>
I'm having problems too.  Maybe you could post a better address?  (Or else
email me at dwrig@tog-34.hac.com.)

Thanks - David Wright

----------
Posted by: David Wright 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 17:24:04 1993
Subject: Re: HRMx is coming back!
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4329

Dave Tartaglia on The Hotrod List (hotrod@dixie.com) wrote:
: Last weekend I received a letter from Tex Smith (of every car magazine ever
: written fame).  He has finally lined up a new distributor for his magazine,
: Hot Rod Mechanix (HRMx).  If all goes well, HRMx will reappear on the
: newstands in April, after a one year hiatus.
: 
: HRMx was previously available only through subscription or at street rod
: events.  It was the best mag out for do-it-yourselfers, in my opinion. I'm
: glad to see it return. Hope they don't change the form, though!

Hey Dave, can you give us the address to send a subscription request to?

Thanks!

DER

-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Don Robinson    (602) 752-6466     Internet:  vlsiphx!donr@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
   ** Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer, **
   ** my terminal, or the view out my window are purely coincidental.   **

----------
Posted by: emory!marble.UUCP!donr (Don Robinson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 17:29:50 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4330

Millam Tackitt on The Hotrod List (hotrod@dixie.com) wrote:
[...]
: I will be running only 10.5:1 compression, my intuition tells me that I should 
: have no problem with block integrity. Oh yes, I will fill the jackets about 
: halfway with filler and polish the internal structure. I am using the 300

I am not familiar with "filling the jackets halfway".  Anyone care to elaborate
on this procedure?

: I am looking at my usual selection of split duration cams, 8-12 degrees
: more exhaust and ~107 intake and ~112 exhaust centers with something like
: .550 lift and some short ramps, kinda like to go roller, but the cost is abit 
: high. Unfortunatly, I have no cam determination program yet. I have
: been poking around with the crower stock selection trying to find one that 
: really pulls. But this program makes adjusting the cam parameters a chore.
: I've not done a stroker small block before, seems that this design would 
: like somewhat different cam specs than the usual, probably more exhaust 
: duration.

Hey Millam, let us know what you decide on for the cam.  I am interested
in the performance (read torque curve) you end up with.

DER

-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Don Robinson    (602) 752-6466     Internet:  vlsiphx!donr@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
   ** Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer, **
   ** my terminal, or the view out my window are purely coincidental.   **

----------
Posted by: emory!marble.UUCP!donr (Don Robinson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 17:34:19 1993
Subject: 25 mpg in el-camino
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4331


JGD writes:
[Good old fashioned air works well and doesn't require any storage space.
I posted an article a month or so ago to rec.autos.tech about an air
induction system I designed for my El Camino over 10 years ago that pushed
the smallblock mileage up over 25 mpg on the highway.  I can dig it out
and post it here if anyone is interested.

JGD]

I have an el-camino i have been restoring. I have planned on selling it, because
I know "it's gonna be drinking gas like I drink beer". If I could drive it to
work (all highway) and get 25 mpg from it (almost as good as my current work
sled-- a '84 chevy cavalier), i'd sell the cavalier in a moment.(and already
have a buyer)...

BTW-- does this mean I have to drive sanely (doing the speed limit) or is 25 mpg
"average" highway crusing? I like to drive at at least 70 down the highway. Is 
doing 70-80 going to drop the mileage? I'd assume so... but by how much? 

JGD-- thanks for the MSD 7al2 posting.. I'm sure it will be a big help when I 
need it...

[Thanks.  Who me?  Drive the speed limit?  Surely you jest!  :-)  This mod
introduces excess air into the intake during cruise conditions.  It 
functions roughly whenever there is ported vacuum for the vacuum advance.
Under any other conditions, it does nothing.  I'll dig the whole post out
and post it here in another message.  JGD]

-dan a.
dhoward@sw.stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 17:41:33 1993
Subject: Re:  Holley Pro-Jection
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4332

Umm, from my personal experiences, they are junk.  IMHO of course...

(We could never get it to work correctly on a 455 Olds, all kinds of problems
with it and Holley's tech support was pretty useless.  Dropped an 850 cfm on
it and got much better results in a 1/2 hour vs. the weeks/months we tried
to get the Pro-Jection working.)  So I agree with John, keep the carb until
you can get a multi-port injection system...

Plus there are other instances of my friends having the same troubles, but
I don't know the details, but I've been warned away from it from them too...

Your mileage may vary (along with tread wear and other various parts...)

-- Steve

   Steven T McClure     '84 GPZ 750 Turbo pilot          stm0@gte.com
GTE Government Systems         DoD #0425              
  Needham, Ma. 02194            /*  Insert standard disclaimer here. */
Beta software: 'beta than nothing, and that's usually all it is...

----------
Posted by: emory!gte.com!stm0 (Steven McClure)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 17:53:36 1993
Subject: Re: Do gas and water mix?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4333

>I've thought about a closed loop water injection system but I've not yet
>come up with a good metering unit.  Conventional fuel injectors lock up
>so fast you can almost hear it in the presence of water.  conventional
>solenoid valves are too slow.  Any suggestions?  JGD]
 
How fast does the solenoid have to be? I was thinking of pulse width
modulating a solenoid at about 18 cps. Haven't done much testing yet,
but I seem to be able to get a fair amount of flow rate control. 
Was considering using boost pressure (approx 15PSI) to pump the 
fluid thru a .040 or so carb jet - directly into the compressor inlet 
as you've described in the past.
Is it necessary to do the PWM at a faster rate than this?

...Greg

[That rate should do it.  What kind of valve?  I'm VERY interested.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 18:00:27 1993
Subject: El Camino Mileage mod
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4334

Here's my r.a.t posting.  Never heard anything back from this guy.

John
----------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: dixie.postings
Path: rsiatl!jgd
From:  jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject:  rec.autos.tech, EGR/Fuel Economy 
Message-ID: <#lfs9zg@dixie.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 21:23:46 GMT


tgl@slee01.srl.ford.com (Tom Leone) writes:

I missed your first post, Tom, so pardon me if I duplicate some comments.

>I wrote:
>: >YES, EGR does improve fuel economy.  There are several reasons:

>: >(1) Reduced "pumping work" needed to move gases from a low-pressure
>: >intake to a high-pressure exhaust.  When you dilute the air/fuel
>: >mixture with EGR, you must increase intake pressure (open the throttle
>: >more) to get the same mass of air/fuel for the same torque.  Note
>: >EGR is automatically turned off at wide-open-throttle, so you get
>: >the same maximum torque/power.  

I would think the reduced pumping work would come from the lower 
differential pressure across the piston between the near atmospheric
pressure in the crankcase and the fairly high vacuum in the intake.
This DP lasts longer and should be greater than that between the crankcase
and the exhaust.  Most exhaust system I've measured run <1psi at cruise.

Side question:  Why does no production engine (at least that I'm aware of)
apply partial vacuum to the crankcase?  This seems to be a mostly
no-brainer to reduce drag, pumping losses and oil leaks.  I modified a 
Datsun Z engine to suject the crankcase to manifold vacuum via checkvalves
(to retain it during WOT) and gained a couple MPG at cruise.


>: >(2) Reduced heat transfer losses, due to lower combustion temperatures.
>: >
>: >(3) Less dissociation in the burned gases, due to lower combustion
>: >temperatures (allows fuller use of fuel's energy for useful work).
>: 
>:     Explain a little further on 2 and 3.....

>Well, diluting the mixture lowers combustion temperatures because you
>have to heat up some unreactive gases.  That's the main idea of EGR,
>because lower temperatures decrease emissions of NOX.

>It also reduces heat transfer, because convective heat transfer
>is proportional to the difference in temperature (between gas
>and walls), and radiative heat transfer is proportional to the
>difference of the FOURTH POWER of the temperatures.  Less heat
>lost to the walls means a greater percentage of the heat is
>going into increased gas pressure, therefore increased work.

I looked up your reference (Internal Combustion Engine Fundimentals, 
Heywood, page 837,838).  Very interesting.  Appears from his chart
that BSFC minimizes at about 25% EGR.  he also notes that fuel disassociation
is a minor issue and notes that induced air has the same effect (more on
that later.)  I'm really wondering about the magnitude of the radiative loss 
issue vis a vie reduced Carnot efficiency resulting from lower combustion
temperature.  Seems to me like radiative loss would be a rather small 
component for a lambda=1 mix because of the low luminousity of the 
combustion flame.  Wonder if you would have any other information 
on this aspect?


>Even the obsolete carbureted cars have "flapper" valves to take
>warm air from around the exhaust during part throttle.  They are
>vacuum-operated, so they take cold air at wide-open throttle
>(less vacuum).  And again, the EGR is automatically off at
>wide-open throttle, so it does not heat up the air.  And, I
>don't like your "tone of voice", especially when you are wrong.

Well sorta.  None of my (older) vehicles use ported vacuum or anything else
other than intake temperature to operate the heat stove flap.  Has
this changed in later model cars?

>I wrote:
>: >Reference: Heywood, "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals", p. 837-8,
>: >including graph showing approximately 10% improvement in fuel economy
>: >for 20% EGR (for a certain engine and speed/load point).
>:                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Bob Valentine wrote:
>:     Exactly.  At some point, there will be a gain.  But at what
>: percentage of the time does the engine run at that point, and will the
>: losses to either side of that point compensate for the gain at that
>: point. Given, that point is not a tiny little peak, but still....


It should be pointed out that the chart in question shows large gains 
for fast burn chamber designs.  On the same chart is a line for slow
burn chambers that shows much less improvements and then only at 
low (5-10%) EGR injection.  This graph shows why EGR has such a bad
rap.  Older designs were CRAP.  The EGR valve slammed open at part
throttle and dumped a large but fixed amount of EG in.  One could
typically FEEL the EGR kick in on a 70s and early 80s car.  There is
now a large education task at hand to reverse the perceptions of the 
last couple of decades.

>What losses on either side?  The EGR valve is designed to give the
>optimum amount of EGR at all times.  The modern systems are
>computer-controlled, and even the older systems use a vacuum signal
>to get approximately the right amount.  Even a little EGR is better
>than none, and the only possible loss is if you have way too much
>EGR and hit misfire.  And during typical driving, a huge percentage
>of the time is spent at part throttle, where EGR is a great fuel
>saver.  When you are accelerating hard, the EGR goes off automatically
>and you have good power.  What's the problem?

I realized over 10 years ago that a lean-of-stoich cruise mixture, and
the resultant higher manifold pressure, would improve mileage dramatically and 
built a device to prove it.  These devices were fitted to many of my cars but 
the best result was on my 79 El Camino.  The device consists of a fresh air
metering valve and some controls.  The metering valve is a modified 
Datsun A.I.R injection anti-backfire valve.  The seat orfice is about 10 mm,
a relatively high flow device.  This device feeds air from the air
cleaner to a plate fitted where the EGR valve once went.  (This is one of
those garbage EGR implementations that could be felt)  The controls
consists of ported vacuum switched by a thermal valve to defeat the
actuation when the engine is cold and an adjustable orfice  and volume 
arrangement whereby the slope of the applied vacuum to the metering valve 
could be adjusted and time-delayed.

The anti-backfire valve was modified so that instead of pulsing open
it opened and remained open when vacuum was applied.  The original had
a diaphram across a sealed chamber with a small orfice to bleed pressure
across the diaphram.  When vacuum is applied, the diaphram opens the 
valve until the pressure in the sealed side is equalized by bleed through
the orfice.  My modification was simply to drill a hole through the housing
into the sealed chamber so it always had atmospheric pressure on it.  The
orfice bleed is low enough not to matter.

The thermal valve was already fitted to the engine for some other 
purpose.  It is closed until the engine is almost fully warmed.

This mechanism, fitted to the 305 small block, improved the long
trip mileage from 18-20 to 25-27 mpg.  Town mileage improved some but 
not dramatically because the delay, used to improve throttle response,
kept it un-actuated most of the time.  The down side of the device is
that throttle response at cruise was somewhat soggy, since additional
throttle had to be dialed in to respond to the opened air valve.
My homemade cruise control system handled that quite nicely :-) I'm sure 
electronic controls would have greatly improved the performance of this 
thing.

Tom, I have a couple of questions for you:

*	Does the EEC-IV EGR algorithm use the IAC stepper to increase the 
	effective throttle angle during EGR introduction?  This would
	seem logical and would mitigate the sogginess EGR often causes.
	I have studied GM's algorithm, which basically involves using 
	manifold pressure and RPM to point into an EGR flow lookup table.
	There is no connection to idle air control.  If Ford (or anyone
	else) does not do it, why not?

*	Assuming a fly-by-wire system, has there been any consideration
	to using massive EGR as a means of throttling the engine?  It 
	seems to me that with the fast burn chambers and effectively
	stratified charge designs now popular, that massive EGR could
	be used to throttle the engine with fresh air being admitted
	only as needed to burn the fuel required for the power setpoint 
	(accelerator pedal position.)  It seems that the manifold 
	pressure could be essentially atmospheric at all times.
	If this has been experimented with, could you point me to 
	some literature?

Thanks.  Interesting discussion.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 18:37:11 1993
Subject: water injection / emulsified fuels
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4335


I have had wonderful experiances with water injection. I won't hesitate to
push the limits of compression up an un-reasonable amount and worry about fuel
anymore... I just wonder where the compression ratio needs to stop (no turbo's
or superchargers in use here).  

If you are pushing compression (or boost) to your favorite fuel's limits, don't
worry. Water injection can fix that nasty ping. BTW, what about lots of 
compression and emulsified fuel? some small amount of water in the gas is one 
thing, a 1/2 gas, 1/2 water, part (add your favorite soap here: mine's dove) 
mix is something else. I don't think the emulsion would work in either of 
these two following scenarios... It's hard enough keeping a high-compression 
motor running on pump gas, let alone trick it into running on water. So what 
if my lawnmower will run on emulsified fuel? 

Having a '67 Chevy Camaro with a 13.25:1 compression motor, dual carbs, really 
nasty cam, and the nearest "good gas" 2 hrs. away, I was "forced" into using 
water injection. (12.5:1 pistons, 2.02 closed-chambered shaved heads, and a 
thin steel head gasket make a monster out of your small-block, if it's done 
correctly)

I experianced pinging with pure Aviation gas (100 octane). As any good
hotrodder would do, I installed my Vara-jection water-injection set-up with
2 squirters (one for each carb) using a Tee as specified in the manual. 
It was really easy to install this! The best part-- I could run on Sunoco
ultra (never tried any other lower octane fuels), keep the water bottle full,
and go about 60 miles to a tankful of gas. (never claimed good gas mileage,
just really good burn-outs... The car would put down 4 gears of rubber the 
length of a football field--   Yes, it was a posi) 

I ran this set-up for three years with minor tuning issues ( sparc gap kept 
closing over a 7800 rpm rev, Broken parts from abuse, tire replacement,etc). 
I never had any instances with the water-injection messing up or having to 
maintain it. 

One of my friends just finished assembling a 426 Hemi for street use. He had 
some unused pistons that he bought at a swap meet. They were supposed to be
10.5:1 compression. After installation of the motor and the initial firing,
we came to the assumption that the pistons were higher compression. (can you
say PINGMONSTER? NOTE: a 10.5:1 and a 12.5:1 hemi piston don't LOOK different,
since both have the largest dome you'll ever see. We did notice the valve 
reliefs being slightly different-- they are deeper on the 10.5 pistons)
Since he had the piston # written down, we called our local parts guy and 
these "slugs" were actually 12.5:1 compression.  We installed another water
injection set-up on this bad boy, and no more PINGMONSTER... Just a radical
happy-to-run hemi tire smoker (single track..). 

-dan a.
dhoward@sw.stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 18:42:35 1993
Subject: Literature
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4336

Mail*Link(r) SMTP               Literature
Reply to:   RE>Factory Literature for Sale

Sorry to post here, but e-mail is bouncing:

I'd be interested in any literature pertaining to Buicks ... especially
interested in anything dealing with 1986-87 Turbo Regals (Grand
Nationals/T-Types).  Dealer lit, shop manuals, etc.

Let me know if you have any!  

Thanks,

Ken Mosher
e-mail: kmosher@imd.sterling.com



----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 18:46:44 1993
Subject: Factory Literature: Better E-mail addresses
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4337


To those responding to my factory literature item I have alternate
e-mail addresses you can try, below.  Also listed is a phone number 
that has an answering machine on it.  I hope this clears some of 
the postings.  Thanks.

uunet!digi!taurus!nwilmart
altair!nwilmart@digi.lonestar.org
devel!nwilmart@digi.lonestar.org
digi!devel!nwilmart

Ned Wilmarth
(817)455-2118

----------
Posted by: emory!digi.lonestar.org!leonis!NWILMART (NED)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  2 18:52:08 1993
Subject: Re: F-body mailing list?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4338

f-body-request@boogie.ebay.sun.com
mgb

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 02:27:43 1993
Subject: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4339

   Date: 	Tue, 2 Mar 1993 14:07:59 PST
   From: "Chris Kent Kantarjiev" 

   Tell me more, please; an MSD box is on the project list for the GT6.

Well, I'm not an electronic engineer by trade or training, but here
goes...

Switch mode power supplies place different requirements on filter
capacitors than 60 Hz supplies do.  The ripple frequencies are higher,
so the total capacitance required is smaller, but the parasitic
inductance must be substantially lower, or the ripple will follow the
path of least resistance through the circuitry and not the cap.

So about 10 years ago, the capacitor industry started making filter caps
with a low equivalent series resistance (ESR) specifically for
switchers.  These are distinguishable from garden variety electrolytics
by multiple terminals (i.e. more than 2) on top.  Since these caps are
specifically designed for rapid transients, they should be ideal for use
with an MSD, or anything else that requires a healthy surge of current
for very short periods.

Because the computer industry uses them by the truckload, such
capacitors should be pretty easy to come by at Silicon Valley surplus
stores such as Halted, Haltek, and Weird Stuff Warehouse.  They may be
more readily available as part of a power supply rather than
individually.  Check with your local industrial electronics distributor
if they aren't available surplus.  For sure Radio Shack won't have 'em!!

The only catch is, I don't know if you'll be able to find them in large
enough capacitance values.  As stated above, switching power supplies
work at higher frequencies, so don't require as much capacitance.  Only
a BIG computer power supply would require 100,000 uF!  If you can get
close, paralleling them is an option.

You'll want to minimize the length of any wiring between the cap and the
MSD, and use a healthy gauge of stranded (not solid) wire.  I suspect
that if you used a big enough cap (or paralleled a couple of 'em), you
could probably get away with a fuse in the line from the ignition switch
to the cap.

It also sounds like MSDs could use the biggest ground strap you can
justify.  It draws almost as much current as the starter motor, but is
far more sensitive to what the chip designers call "ground bounce".

 -- Chuck

     Chuck Fry  chucko@freud.arc.nasa.gov  chucko@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov
   Join the Silicon Valley protest against 55 MPH!  Email me for details.
	    I alone bear responsibility for the claptrap above.

----------
Posted by: Chuck Fry 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 02:32:38 1993
Subject: Re: Do Gas and water mix?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4340

------- Forwarded Message


[That rate should do it.  What kind of valve?  I'm VERY interested.  JGD]
- ----------
Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
------- End of Forwarded Message

I may have the perfect valve for this. Hildeborn makes different in-the-line 
fittings for metering fuel ratios and pressure on their mechanical fuel 
injection set-up. Pills are swappable for flow sizing. The fittings are 
about 1.5" long, but the line size is probably larger than needed. Their 
catalog listed other various "mechanical" flow peices. One of them should
be able to do what you need...

Kinsler might also have the needed fitting you desire (they have an in-line
regulator to alter pressure to one cyl.)

-dan a.
dhoward@sw.stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 02:55:16 1993
Subject: Re:  Holley Pro-Jection 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4341

GatorMail-Q                   RE>> Holley Pro-Jection 

>Plus there are other instances of my friends having the same troubles,

>but I don't know the details, but I've been warned away from it from 
>them too...

A friend has one on a Toyota 4x4 with a Buick turbo V-6.  The main
reason was to keep it running on the steep angles a 4WD encounters.  It
also allows him to pass emissions more easily.  

We do some playing on some cinder hills at an elevation of about 8000'
and I talked to him about how it works at high altitude.  He said he
has to set it one way when he starts up the hill and change the
adjustment as he slowly bogs the engine on the way up.  It seems to be
kind of a pain, since a normal EFI doesn't need that.  For him it's
better than a carb, but still nowhere near a port EFI.

Jim


----------
Posted by: "Jim Chott" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 02:59:39 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4342

Hi guys,

I sold my Z car engine to a friend recently, and he is going to have to
worry about emmisions testing.  So I'm wondering about installing a cat
to get him passed.  Some details:
  The motor is an 11:1 compression 2.8l six,
  the cam is "speced" at 290 deg. of duration (I have no idea at 0.050)
  the lift is about .5".  The carbs that are on it are
  3 side draft Mikuni's with 37mm venturis.

The goal is meeting '74 standards without major tricks.
The exhaust has a rather "unburnt hydrocarbons" smell at idle
right now, I think due to the duration of the cam, and the free
flowing exhaust ports.
I'm not really sure of what it takes to reach '74 standards, I never
had to bother with inspections.  We are planning to try to tune the
mixture better than I ever bothered to using an O2 sensor, but what
is it going to take to pass, and would it be a piece of cake with a
cat?  Also how does the rectrictivness of a current hi-po cat compare
to say a turbo-style muffler, and what might be a good (junkyard?) source
for a good cat?

Thanks!!!

Brandon Dixon
bdd@cs.princeton.edu
  
 

----------
Posted by: Brandon Dixon 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 04:09:55 1993
Subject: Re: Do gas and water mix?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4343

Fellas,
	I read the first paper tonite, and learned a few things. First, all
the papers I've gotten my hands on used diesel engines because they burn
anything, and are rather simple. Second, John's emulsifier MIGHT work; I
don't know if the pressure is high enough. But it does work like the one
described in the paper. (The emulsifier in the paper used an 8000 psig pump
to force a 10%/2.5% water/surfactant/fuel (by volume) mix though a valve to
produce suspended droplets with an average size just under 1um. Supposedly
this mixture is stable for a month.

The engine was then run with the mixture under a couple different conditions;

7.2degrees retarded timing , 3.6 deg. ret., Standard tim. 3.6 deg. adv. tim.

with varied-load or constant load.

The engine was a Coast Guard owned GM 6-71 deisel, unmodified.
Compared to the same cycles run with pure diesel, the following trends emerged;

1. Slight improvement in fuel economy under retarded timing.
2. Reduced CO under high-output at any timing; worse CO under low load.
3. Greatly reduced smoke output under high-load, on effect under low-load.
4. Reduced NOx at high-load.
5. 50%(best case) increase in unburned hydrocarbons.

The authors listed their concerns, and proposed further experminents to answer
questions not answered by this paper;

	Concerns
	 1. Water content of emulsion
	 2. Emulsion Droplet Size
	 3. Injection timing
	 4. Durability of engine components exposed to emulsion.

 	
The authors suggest varying the fuel mix from 5% to 50% water, and varying
the suspended water droplet size. The authors also suggest optimizing the 
timing, and injector type.( The engine in the article was beat-up, and had
HV- type injectors; the authors state that N-type injectors produce less
UBHC in the same engine.) The last recommendation was to try different
engine types and combustion chamber geometries.

I hope I've done a good job of relaying this info to you; I didn't have any
idea how much info to give, and this isn't particularly well organized.

Dave, what's your e-mail address? I do have a question or two, and don't want to bore everyone else.

Vince

----------
Posted by: Vince Reed 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 13:29:04 1993
Subject: NASCAR School?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4344

Hi all.  I want to learn more about stock car racing, and I've been told of
a NASCAR school in, I believe, North Carolina, and was wondering if anyone
knew of any details/locations/etc of any NASCAR/Winston Cup/Busch Grand
National schooling?  From what I've been told, it is something like a 5 day
class, with 1 or 2 days at the end of actual track time.  I'm curious to find
out more about this, as although I really like drag racing, the roundy-round
itch is really getting to me.  I plan on attempting short track racing locally,
but want to find out more about the stock car circuit and such, and figure the
best place is to find out from the big guys, especially if they have classes.

Thanks mucho for any info...

-- Steve
stm0@gte.com

   Steven T McClure     '84 GPZ 750 Turbo pilot          stm0@gte.com
GTE Government Systems         DoD #0425              
  Needham, Ma. 02194            /*  Insert standard disclaimer here. */
Beta software: 'beta than nothing, and that's usually all it is...

----------
Posted by: emory!gte.com!stm0 (Steven McClure)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 13:52:39 1993
Subject: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4345

Does anyone have test data to support MSD-style ignition over
single spark ignitions?  I'm curious, but I dont see where
multispark improves anything.

I image one initial spark combusts the mixture in the immediate
vicinity of the electrode and the combustion starts to spread...
Any further sparking of the electrode is sparking into already
combusted material.  Or is the swirling action of the cylinder
always bringing new fuel/air to the plug.

In any event, what sort of power increase can be achieved?  I dont
really care to hear what MSD claims it to be.

"doubting" tim

[  THe MSD system reverts to single spark at some RPM (actually it drops 
a spark per cycle gradually until it is down to 1) so the high speed power
gains are strictly from the increased energy in the spark.  

I did some research as part of a science fair project (tells you how long
ago that was :-) on the effects of ignition energy.  I built a dyno
for the small motorcycle test engine and a pyrex head (two stroke).
I found a direct correlation between power and spark energy over a very
wide range of energy.  And the longer the duration the spark, the more
the power.  The difference is not large but it IS there.  Even better,
the part throttle running is MUCH better.  Looking at the combustion
process through the pyrex head with the aid of a homemade high speed film
camera, one could see the nucleus of combustion change markedly as
the spark duration increases.  While the conventional ignition makes
a nucleus of fire around the plug, that flamefront turns into a streak
with long duration as the turbulence of the mix blows fresh mixture into
the spark.

The effect on off-peak power and driveability is marked.  My brother
was racing a Hodaka 100 cc motocross bike (another indication of how long
ago this was)  It was the fastest bike on the track (ahem :-) but with
the stock magneto ignition it literally had no power band and its tendency 
to foul its plug was so bad that we carried around a set of rollers 
for warming the engine before we went to the line and we bought plugs
by the case.  As some of you other old pfarts might remember, the Nippon
Denso magneto had a flywheel with three coils inside.  One coil was the 
magneto coil and the other two were for lighting and battery charging.
Based on the research above, I redesigned that magneto by rewinding all
three coils to provide magneto energy  and replaced the tiny coil with
a conventional automotive coil.  The change was marked.  The damn thing
would even idle.  Midrange power appeared.  Lap times went down markedly,
teaching me the importance of maximizing the area under the power curve.
I got to change points after every event :-) but I fixed that later with
a homemade transistorized ignition.

I have seen similar results on automotive engines so this was not just a 
2 stroke fluke.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!spbted.gatech.edu!tdrury
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 13:59:11 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4346

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>Millam Tackitt on The Hotrod List (hotrod@dixie.com) wrote:
>[...]
>: have no problem with block integrity. Oh yes, I will fill the jackets about 
>: halfway with filler and polish the internal structure. I am using the 300

>I am not familiar with "filling the jackets halfway".  Anyone care to elaborate
>on this procedure?

	
	As you approach the water jacket, the strength of the block is 
compromised.  By "filling the jackets" a smidgen of stiffness is returned
to the block, and you reduce the possibility of developing a crack in the
bore at some thin place.  Probl'y more of the latter than the former, 
actually.
					t.v.
 

----------
Posted by: emory!usceast.cs.scarolina.edu!ece.scarolina.edu!ausdal (Thi Van Ausdal)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 14:09:23 1993
Subject: RE: Emulsified Fuels
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4347


->      Thanks for your offer. Tonite, I'll see how many of the dozen or
-> so papers I found are actually available in the library.

 Great.  We can probably extract *some* useable information from the
papers; anything weird we post and let the rest of the list chew on.

                                   

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 14:21:33 1993
Subject: Re: El Camino Mileage mod
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4348

John described his manifold air bleed which he used instead of EGR
to get mileage improvements.  Since exhaust gas has virtually no
oxidizer left it wouldn't be expected to cause an oxidizing
environment in the combustion chamber, but allowing plain air into
the manifold will add extra oxygen.  Does this pose a problem for
things like valves and piston tops?  If you run out of gas at WOT,
many engines will burn parts.  It seems as though the same problem
would exist here but to a lesser extent.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

[Not a problem because it activates only at low throttle settings where
there is ported vacuum.  The engine's maybe making 20-30 hp at that 
point.

As a practical matter, I've put over 100k miles
on this engine with no problems until I er, kinda forgot to keep it 
full of oil.  it now rattles its rods in protest :-(  It still doesn't
use any oil, though it does pour it out the rear main seal.  JGD]

----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 14:25:58 1993
Subject: Re: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4349

Chuck Fry writes about MSD ignitions:
"It also sounds like MSDs could use the biggest ground strap you can
justify.  It draws almost as much current as the starter motor, but is
far more sensitive to what the chip designers call "ground bounce"."

I dunno what Chuck uses for a starter but the starter *solenoid*
on my engine all by itself draws 40 amps.  The starter draws 200
to 300 amps depending on things like engine temperature, battery
temperature, how long it's been since I changed the oil, etc.  The
current gets a lot higher when I get the timing too far forward
and the engine kicks back against the starter.


The MSD box comes with heavy wires for its high current system.
I believe that they are 10 gauge which has a resistance of just
about 1 milliohm per foot.  At 35 amps that's 35 millivolts per
foot so if you had ten feet of this stuff it would drop 350
millivolts which isn't enough to worry about.  Note that the
Autotronics people tell you to ground the heavy black wire to
the block, but what you really want is to achieve the lowest
resistance connection to the power supply - for short transients
the battery is the power supply.  The block is probably the best
choice in a typical installation because the large battery cable
is firmly tied to the block and you aren't likely to get another
good connection to the battery in addition to the heavy ground
wire.

It makes no electrical difference whether the wires are solid
or stranded.  The stranded wire is desirable from a mechanical
standpoint because it is easier to bend and will work harden less.

This isn't meant as a flame to Chuck but rather to put the wiring
problem into engineering terms so that the appropriate cost/
benefit choices can be made by people installing MSD boxes.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 17:52:30 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4350

On Mar 3, 13:49, The Hotrod List wrote:
> Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
> hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
>
> >Millam Tackitt on The Hotrod List (hotrod@dixie.com) wrote:
> >[...]
> >: have no problem with block integrity. Oh yes, I will fill the jackets about
> >: halfway with filler and polish the internal structure. I am using the 300
>
> >I am not familiar with "filling the jackets halfway".  Anyone care to
elaborate
> >on this procedure?
>
>
> 	As you approach the water jacket, the strength of the block is
> compromised.  By "filling the jackets" a smidgen of stiffness is returned
> to the block, and you reduce the possibility of developing a crack in the
> bore at some thin place.  Probl'y more of the latter than the former,
> actually.
> 					t.v.
>
>
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!usceast.cs.scarolina.edu!ece.scarolina.edu!ausdal (Thi Van
Ausdal)
>
>
>
>-- End of excerpt from The Hotrod List



1) What epoxy do you use, how much does it cost, and where
   do you get it?

2) How much weight does this introduce into the block?

3) Do you polish the block with a die grinder?

4) Does this epoxy filling really work?

-Bob

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
| Unix Consultant   |-------------------------------------------------------|
| Consultant to MCI | Phone:719-535-1322 | Internet:rmwise@apdev.mci.com    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: emory!mcigate.apdev.mci.com!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 18:53:03 1993
Subject: Ok, how do I do water injec
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4351

                          SUBJECT:  Ok, how do I do water injection?
All the talk about water injection here has got me thinking ... I wonder how
hard it would be to come up with a setup for my Buick turbo V6?  I would want
to use the setup mostly at the track, but it'd be fun to turn up the wick on
street gas also!

Here's a couple of my preliminary thoughts:

1.  The injection point for the water mist would be just ahead of the turbo ...
I was thinking of the Turbo inlet bell,  right where the valve cover oil
breather line used to go.

2.  Maybe an early version would be manually operated by a momentary contact
switch ... I was thinking of something like a windshield washer pump or
something like that to pump the fluid.

3.  I was thinking of using an NOS fogger nozzle with pretty small jets to be
used for the injector.  Very simple and should be fairly resistant to moisture.

4.  Mount another windshield washer fluid tank next to the existing one for the
injection fluid ... probably distilled water with maybe a little alcohol mixed
in.

Eventually I'd want some kind of boost actuated control, or maybe RPM related? 
A simple type of control could read the RPM from the green tach connector (next
to the fuel pump test connector) and actuate the pump at a desired RPM.

Maybe a selenoid could be used to tap into manifold pressure to pump the water?

These are all preliminary thoughts ... Any brillant engineering ideas on this? 
I'm looking for some advice from those of you that have done this ... lessons
learned are the best kind! 

-- Ken Mosher
-- Buick Grand National:  A *BOOST* of Buick Performance

[The systems I build for turbo-Z engines are quite similar to the one
described as the Dick Griffin system on page 135 of McInnes's book.  He
doesn't use revision numbers (grrr) but this is the version with the
glowing McLaren installation on the rear cover.  This system uses boost
pressure supplied to the water resevoir to provide the driving force for
the injection, thus, the injection flow is metered according to boost.
I change the design a bit to make it work better.  First, I use very large
bore tubing to connect the manifold pressure to the tank.  This is 
important so that the tubing and the air volume of the tank does not 
form an RC network that delays the start of injection.  Next I insert
a pressure holdoff valve in the water line.  This valve functions to
hold off the injection until the boost pressure reaches a certain level.
I originally used deicing valves from B-17 airplanes I got from Turbo
Toms but those are all gone now so I build my own.  This consists of 
modifying a right angle Parker needle valve  by cutting the shaft to 
the needle and inserting a spring between the stem and the needle.  
Flow is arranged so that pressure attempts to lift the needle and is 
opposed by the spring.  The knob sets the setpoint.  If you use a 
valve with a large diameter needle and seat, the slope is pretty
steep, a desirable quality.

In the first installations, I used "pony" beer kegs for the water tanks
but the shape is not too hot for underhood installation.  For the last
few I've custom fabricated fiberglass tanks.  This is pretty easy to 
do.  Simply make a mould of the tank to fit whatever space is available
using cardboard and/or posterboard and hotmelt glue.  Lay up the fiberglass
over this and dissolve out the cardboard with a lye solution.  The hotmelt
will drop out.  Embed steel or brass fittings and include internal struts to
brace flat surfaces.  JGD]


----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 18:58:04 1993
Subject: Re: Do gas and water mix?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4352


[That rate should do it.  What kind of valve?  I'm VERY interested.  JGD]

The one that I was playing with was made by KIP Inc. (1-800-722-5KIP)
They have a wide variety of solenoids for fluid control... But then,
a lot of other companies do too.
I'll do some more exact testing sometime soon, and will report the 
results. They claim a response time between 6 and 12ms, depending on
several variables... one of which is the medium being controlled. 
There are several tricks that can be used to speed up selenoid response
time also, which I'm sure you're well aware of.
I'll measure the range of flow control at various PW rates, and at
different head pressures. Is there anything else I should be looking at?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Greg Granville       |     99 Blanchard St.   |  gag@arlvax.psu.edu    |
| 814-865-3310 (work)  |    Osceola Mills, PA   |  Applied Research Lab  |
| 814-339-7244 (home)  |         16666          |  University Park, PA   |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|          "I say we take off, and nuke the site from orbit.             |
|          It's the only way to be sure" -Lt. Ripley - Aliens            |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------
Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 19:03:45 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4353

Hot Rodders!

I just finished reading paper number two; this paper was much better done,
and addressed a few more topics than the first. This time, the investigators
(again from the coast guard and dept. of transportation, but with the help of
outside consultants) felt that one cylinder was enough to demonstrate effects
of the emulsion. The engine:

Bore: 3.8125" Stroke: 3.750" C/R: 16.7:1 Int/Exh Max Lift: 0.228"

Intake is open from 18deg. BTDC to 58deg. ABDC
Exhaust is open from 124deg ATDC(??) to 20deg ATDC.


The engine was tested up to 2500 rpm with water content varying from
0(baseline) to 23.5% by volume. With each mixture, timing was altered to
produce the best output. No emulsifying agent was used; the mixtures
were prepared mechanically with one of two different inline systems.

The mechanisms of the emulsion machines were covered by non-disclosure
agreements, so no details about their operation were given.

The table below contains the test results for each machine:

	         Daedalean Emulsions		Dynatrol Emulsions
Parameter	%Var.Rng.	Ave %Var.	%Var. Rng.	Ave %Var

ISFC		 0   to -5.1	-3.9		+2.5 to -3.9	-1.7

NOx Conc.	+7   to -58	-33		+26  to -59	-19

Smoke Density	-8   to -68	-40		-8   to -36	-17

UBHC Conc.	-10  to +106	+25		-37  to +172	+23

CO2 Conc.	+1.6 to -7.4	-3.0		+3.7 to -4.6	-0.3

O2 Conc.	-6.5 to +13.6	+1.7		-8.8 to +17.8	-0.9

Exhaust Temp	-0.7 to -6.3	-3.8		+2.3 to -6.9	-1.5

ISFC= Indicated Specific Fuel Consumption.

After the test runs(130to 150 hours), the engine was disassembled and
inspected for abnormal wear; none was found. The investigators report no
trouble from the injection system either, but it wasn't disassembled and
inspected. Further, the oil was analyzed and never contained more than 0.2%
water.

The authors conclusions and recommendations follow;

1. Unstabilized(no emulsifier) emulsions produce fuel enconomy while
stabilized ones don't(the improvement I mentioned was held to be statistically
insignificant). The mechanism for the improvement is unknown; the authors
recommend studying cylinder pressure/time profiles to determine the reason.

2. Whether or not chemically enhanced emulsions are more stable is a moot
point if the mixture is only emulsified just before injection. The authors
explain briefly that emulsions should be unstablized mixes for the above
reason, and because the range of useful mixtures is so great that mixing
on demand produces a better match for engine conditions.

3. The authors also explain the mechanism of emulsion combustion
and it appears, from lab experiments, that the "egg" theory is more or less
correct, except that the droplets are mostly gas, with lots of micro-droplets
of water interspersed. When the micro-droplets heat up, they micro-explode,
and atomize the fuel/water mix	better than the injectors alone.

4. The authors stated that further adjustment to injection and ignition timing
would probably yield even better results, and suggested that the tests be done
again with a full size engine, in the lab, and in the field, to do further
durability tests and to refine the system (timing, emulsion method, delivery
method, etc...)

Point three makes me think that emulsions wold be better than injection unless
maybe the water injection system could span the 0 to 23.5% by  volume range
listed above(or maybe more even; I couldn't find a reason for them stopping
there in the paper), and the both the fuel and water are drawn through a
turbo or two.

Vince Reed
vince@jsrvx1.ucsf.edu

----------
Posted by: Vince Reed 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 19:15:06 1993
Subject: Re: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4354

The Hotrod List
> 
> I dunno what Chuck uses for a starter but the starter *solenoid*
> on my engine all by itself draws 40 amps.  The starter draws 200
> to 300 amps...

Hey John, do you still have that gif of the scope-dump of the msd
output and current draw?  Load it up to the gif site and let people
see for themselves.  The peak current draw on these things are
phenomenal.

[I sent some screen dumps of the storage capacitor to Milam last night
for the GIF site.  I've sent the unit back to the owner but let me look
around and see if I still have any current draw waveforms.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: David Johnson 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 19:29:14 1993
Subject: Re: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4355

"Doubting Tim" asks if MSD ignitions really do make a difference
and John gave a good writeup.  I can verify that MSD really does
make a difference.  I found that the difference was just plain
obvious with a cold engine - it runs lots better!  I don't know
about mid-RPM part throttle operation but the MSD also gives a
good improvement over a Kettering system at 6500 RPM.  Conventional
wisdom says that a Kettering system begins to degrade at 5000 RPM
because it doesn't have sufficient time to recharge the magnetic
field in the coil; of course you could design a Kettering system
to run at higher RPM but you would introduce other compromises.

Yes, the MSD is worth it.  And many of the Autotronics models
provide additional features such as tachometer output, rev limiting,
etc. which you don't get with a conventional ignition system.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 19:36:59 1993
Subject: Re: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4356

In article <#bat#t@dixie.com>, hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> Does anyone have test data to support MSD-style ignition over
> single spark ignitions?  I'm curious, but I dont see where
> multispark improves anything.

[...]

> I did some research as part of a science fair project (tells you how long
> ago that was :-) on the effects of ignition energy.  I built a dyno
> for the small motorcycle test engine and a pyrex head (two stroke).

W O W  John, cool science fair project!

[ Lots of fun.  I got my first introduction to scientific politics on
that project.  I won the regional fair with it but at the state level I
lost to a kid who flew and photographed Estes rockets!  His dad turned
out to be the boss of two of the judging engineers.  That was an erie
awards ceremony.  I'd won awards from the Army, Navy and Air Force
(a gold medal, a leather briefcase and a scholarship respectively)
They announced the grand prize winner and... no one clapped.  Silence.
I didn't understand what was going on, being a nerd novice in politics
but my parents had grins from ear to ear :-)  OK, back to hotrodding.  JGD]

[...]

> by the case.  As some of you other old pfarts might remember, the Nippon
> Denso magneto had a flywheel with three coils inside.  One coil was the 
> magneto coil and the other two were for lighting and battery charging.

Yeah, they were kind of weak all the way around.

> Based on the research above, I redesigned that magneto by rewinding all
> three coils to provide magneto energy  and replaced the tiny coil with
> a conventional automotive coil.  The change was marked.  The damn thing

[...]

And I thought I was having fun in high school rodding my Suzuki, Impala
and mid-engineed Corvair around.  Now I wish I had attempted some of
the "techier" things that rolled across my brain from time to time.

> ----------
> Posted by: emory!spbted.gatech.edu!tdrury

-- 
Mark Walker
mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar  3 21:29:46 1993
Subject: Re: MSD Ignition - I'm impressed
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4357

In article <9bat!9_@dixie.com> hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>Chuck Fry writes about MSD ignitions:
>"It also sounds like MSDs could use the biggest ground strap you can
>justify.  It draws almost as much current as the starter motor, but is
>far more sensitive to what the chip designers call "ground bounce"."

[... rebuttal deleted ...]

OK, yes I oversimplified.  The point is that ground wiring is likely to
be fairly critical for an MSD, or any other high energy spark box.

> ... Note that the
>Autotronics people tell you to ground the heavy black wire to
>the block, but what you really want is to achieve the lowest
>resistance connection to the power supply - for short transients
>the battery is the power supply.  The block is probably the best
>choice in a typical installation because the large battery cable
>is firmly tied to the block and you aren't likely to get another
>good connection to the battery in addition to the heavy ground
>wire.

My guess is, if you have a large enough capacitor close by, and wire the
MSD ground to the cap first, the ground wire from the cap to the battery
probably becomes far less critical.  The cap takes care of the
transients.

>It makes no electrical difference whether the wires are solid
>or stranded.  The stranded wire is desirable from a mechanical
>standpoint because it is easier to bend and will work harden less.

Well, yes and no.  Given the hefty dI/dt, skin effect may play some
role.  You wouldn't want solid wire for the reasons you mention anyway.

>This isn't meant as a flame to Chuck but rather to put the wiring
>problem into engineering terms so that the appropriate cost/
>benefit choices can be made by people installing MSD boxes.

Not taken as a flame.  As I said, I'm not a EE, just a meatball
electronic surgeon.
 -- Chuck
-- 
     Chuck Fry  chucko@freud.arc.nasa.gov  chucko@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov
   Join the Silicon Valley protest against 55 MPH!  Email me for details.
	    I alone bear responsibility for the claptrap above.

----------
Posted by: emory!freud.arc.nasa.gov!chucko (Chuck Fry)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 01:21:07 1993
Subject: Re: Do gas and water mix? 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4358


> Date:  Tue, 2 Mar 93 14:50 EST
> From:  hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
> 
> Does water injection at cruise (medium-high vacuum, low load) provide 
>the same MPG benefit as EGR? Seems that a vacuum-demand water shooter

Hmmm....I never thought of EGR as providing a MPG benefit :-).  Is there
something more I should know?

>[Good old fashioned air works well and doesn't require any storage space.
>I posted an article a month or so ago to rec.autos.tech about an air
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

WHAT!!  I stopped reading that when this list was started.  This implies that
there is still some useful information over there AND John is contributing
(or maybe it is useful because John is contributing :-).  Yes, I would like
to see that information posted here.  Thanks.

[Still a few nuggets floating around out there.  Besides, I gotta prowl
around there occasionally just to let 'em know about this list :-)  JGD]

>induction system I designed for my El Camino over 10 years ago that pushed
>the smallblock mileage up over 25 mpg on the highway.  I can dig it out
>and post it here if anyone is interested.

>I've thought about a closed loop water injection system but I've not yet
>come up with a good metering unit.  Conventional fuel injectors lock up
>so fast you can almost hear it in the presence of water.  conventional
>solenoid valves are too slow.  Any suggestions?  JGD]

Well, I have thought about trying to use (find, build, etc.) something similar
to the medical "pumps" that deliver controlled medications.  You know, the
kind that look like a flexible tube wrapped around some number (2,3,4, etc.)
of rollers connected to a motor.  As the rollers turn, they trap a fixed amount
of liquid in the tube, and push it out.  Connect the tube to a jet for
atomization, and control the speed of the motor with the engine controller.
Sounds easy...now to find the parts and the time.

>----------
>Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
> 


	-- Dan

----------
Posted by: Dan Malek 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 01:27:20 1993
Subject: MSD benefits
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4359

I forgot to mention in my previous posting about MSD boxes that
an MSD-6A will fire a spark plug whose ground electrode has been
completely burned away.  It doesn't fire it real well but it does
run.

If you are wondering how I know this, it's due to not tightening
the plugs enough in a SB Chevy that was making a lot of power.
You need good plug cooling to keep them alive, and the plugs don't
cool well when they aren't torqued up to specs.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: emory!UCSD.EDU!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 09:29:04 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4360


-> The motor is an 11:1 compression 2.8l six,  the cam is "speced" at
-> 290 deg. o the lift is about .5".  The carbs that are on it are 3
-> side draft Mikuni's with 37mm venturis.

 The cam is going to be the part the hurts.  First off, you need to run
the car through and see what they're checking for and how badly it
misses spec.  Some places, for example, only check HC and CO.


-> had to bother with inspections.  We are planning to try to tune the
-> mixture better than I ever bothered to using an O2 sensor, but what

 That's a pretty good idea anyway.  As long as you can get the proper
jets there's no reason the carburetion couldn't be brought in line.


-> cat?  Also how does the rectrictivness of a current hi-po cat compare
-> to say a turbo-style muffler, and what might be a good (junkyard?)

 The hot tip used to be the standard Ford convertors, but nowadays there
are probably high performance convertors out.  I'd run the Ford or
whatever is the most useable size/shape to fit.  Most of the old hipo
systems would dispense with the muffler, claiming the convertor did well
enough on noise; that may depend on how the engine sounds.
                                                            

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 14:50:50 1993
Subject: Re: NASCAR School?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4361

stm0@gte.com (Steven McClure) writes:
"Hi all.  I want to learn more about stock car racing,
[]
"                               I plan on attempting short track racing locally,
"but want to find out more about the stock car circuit and such, and figure the
"best place is to find out from the big guys, especially if they have classes.

dunno about _classes_, but my local engine builder [*real* local -- 1
block from my house!] has a nascar race sched. poster on his wall.
everyone knows that busch gn is the next step down from winston cup,
but didja know that there's a gn north?  they race almost exclusively
in the northeast, with 1 date at daytona, a couple in nj, 1 in pa, and
so forth.  i noticed quite a few in nh...
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 15:04:01 1993
Subject: MSD benefits
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4362


-> I forgot to mention in my previous posting about MSD boxes that an
-> MSD-6A will fire a spark plug whose ground electrode has been
-> completely burned away.  It doesn't fire it real well but it does
-> run.

 So will a plain, stone stock GM HEI.  My brother bought a '70 Camaro
someone had dropped an HEI into.  It idled a bit rough, so we decided to
tune it up.  When we removed the plugs, we found four out of eight had
no ground electrodes.  Just for kicks, we used pliers to break the
electrodes off the other four.  It idled a little rougher, but we drove
it around that way for a couple of days.
                                                                                                   

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 15:23:23 1993
Subject: Re: No Subject Line 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4363


>-> cat?  Also how does the rectrictivness of a current hi-po cat compare
>-> to say a turbo-style muffler, and what might be a good (junkyard?)
>
> The hot tip used to be the standard Ford convertors, but nowadays there
>are probably high performance convertors out.  I'd run the Ford or
>whatever is the most useable size/shape to fit.  Most of the old hipo
>systems would dispense with the muffler, claiming the convertor did well
>enough on noise; that may depend on how the engine sounds.

    Actually, the cat's from some GM's, like the big wagons, some
camaros, et al are of the "monolith" design just like the aftermarket
ones (walker, dynamax, et al).    Usually measure about 15 long by 8
wide. Only about 3 or 4 inches high.   The one I had had like almost
2.5 inch inlets and outlets.   They were installed on a 79 Mustang to
make it pass.   There was no seat-of-the-pants change in power.
Sorry, I don't have access to a dyno. 8*(
    The nice thing about these is that they are relativly high-flow,
cheap,  and it's easy to see if they are good or not.   All you have
to do is look thru it, and see if the stuff is there. 

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                  --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  

>Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)

----------
Posted by: emory!mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 15:28:24 1993
Subject: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4364

|-> The motor is an 11:1 compression 2.8l six,  the cam is "speced" at
|-> 290 deg. o the lift is about .5".  The carbs that are on it are 3
|-> side draft Mikuni's with 37mm venturis.
|
| The cam is going to be the part the hurts.  First off, you need to run
|the car through and see what they're checking for and how badly it
|misses spec.  Some places, for example, only check HC and CO.


OK Dave, I called and got the specs this morning.  For a '74 they want
 5% CO and 500ppm HC, and that's all that they test.  I have no idea
how difficult it is to meet these specs.  What's it gonna take?

Thanks
Brandon
bdd@cs.princeton.edu

----------
Posted by: Brandon Dixon 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 15:32:42 1993
Subject: Ultrasonic sensors
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4365


Someone a while back was interested in ultrasonic sensing and there was some 
talk about Polaroid. Well, they must have read your mind. IN the latest issue
of "Sensors - The Journal of Machine Perception" , Polaroid has an ad offering
a Developer's Kit complete with : (These are straight out of the ad so I take
no responsibility for accuracy)

- Programmable frequency, gain, pulse width, blankimg time
- Range of 1" to 50' at +/- 1% resolution over entire range
- Includes two piezo and two electrostatic transducers
- RS232 port / Socketed EPROM
- Breadboard
- LCD display in Metric / English
- Analog output / Externally triggered input

Jeff
cr00jsa@ctccummins.cummins.com

----------
Posted by: emory!ctccummins.cummins.com!cr00jsa (J S Armfield)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 15:37:35 1993
Subject: Oil system tech
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4366


->   Your local Ford dealer can fix you right up, or Milodon, Moroso,
-> Callies, etc.  Check the Address List on dixie.

> I was under the impression these all required more tweaks to the
> motor than just the necessary mounting studs.  Are any of these
> installable without putting the engine on a stand?

 Hmm... are you running a front sump pan or rear sump Fox pan?  To fit
things in a Fox pan you might have to use tin snips and cut away part of
one side of the try to clear the oil pickup tube; I had to do that last
time.


-> And while I'm at it, most of the hi-volume oil pumps seem to require
-> "minor" clearancing of the oil pan.  What's involved here?

 Yup, I bet you have a Fox pan.  The HV pumps typically have slightly
longer rotors and this hang down a little lower; the pan damned near
touches the stock pump.  Usually there's not that much of a problem;
nothing a little work with a BFH can't fix, though hammer knots on the
bottom of the pan aren't beautiful.
                                                                                                                          

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 15:42:23 1993
Subject: Re: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4367

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>Hi guys,

>I sold my Z car engine to a friend recently, and he is going to have to
>worry about emmisions testing.  So I'm wondering about installing a cat
>to get him passed.  Some details:
>  The motor is an 11:1 compression 2.8l six,
>  the cam is "speced" at 290 deg. of duration (I have no idea at 0.050)
>  the lift is about .5".  The carbs that are on it are
>  3 side draft Mikuni's with 37mm venturis.

>The goal is meeting '74 standards without major tricks.
>The exhaust has a rather "unburnt hydrocarbons" smell at idle
>right now, I think due to the duration of the cam, and the free
>flowing exhaust ports.
>I'm not really sure of what it takes to reach '74 standards, I never
>had to bother with inspections.  We are planning to try to tune the
>mixture better than I ever bothered to using an O2 sensor, but what
>is it going to take to pass, and would it be a piece of cake with a
>cat?  Also how does the rectrictivness of a current hi-po cat compare
>to say a turbo-style muffler, and what might be a good (junkyard?) source
>for a good cat?
>Brandon Dixon
>bdd@cs.princeton.edu
>Posted by: Brandon Dixon 

HA HA HA Good LUCK with a 290*/.500" cam and those carbs.  All the stories
I've heard of emissions testing involved muttering, cursing owners having to
	
	A:	Remove motor (in the case of VERY breathed-upon ones) 
		and replace with stock one for testing.
	
	B:	Remove offending parts (a '75 BMW 2002 with a 270* cam, 
		what a pain) and replace with stock one for testing.

	C:	Find that #$@%&* air pump that they threw away when the
		headers went on, 'cuz the (California) inspection place
		required all the original parts on the car (regardless
		of functional condition) and HEY, those headers weren't
		FACTORY ITEMS, you can't pass (CA again).  Cleaner than
		'92 specs? SO WHAT, YOU DON'T HAVE THE STOCK MANIFOLD ON
		IT.  

	The specs for the '75 model year should be on a sticker somewhere
on the car (door jamb, perhaps?) if you haven't repainted over it (a la
Earl Scheib).  Actually, the sidedrafts should give great tunability. But
the lack of an air pump, etc, may kill the efforts before they even get 
to the smog machine.  	

	Good luck.

	As far as cataclysmic converters, you might try looking at a Chebbie
one from a Firebird or something.  It's HUGE, but may indeed flow well.  
On another note, JC Whitney (yes, them!) advertises "free-flow" cats in three
configurations, 1I-1O, 1-2, and 2-2 pipes, and in a coupla sizes.  I posted 
a question about them back in January but everyone ignored me.  Guess they
were too busy gasping.  Darn.

					T.V.


----------
Posted by: emory!usceast.cs.scarolina.edu!ece.scarolina.edu!ausdal (Thi Van Ausdal)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 18:31:11 1993
Subject: Re:  Ultrasonic sensors
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4368

Oh yea, I forgot to mention the price of that ultrasonic sensor developer's
kit. It can be yours for the low,low price of $299.


Jeff
cr00jsa@ctccummins.cummins.com

----------
Posted by: emory!uunet.UU.NET!cec1!ctccummins!cr00jsa (J S Armfield)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 18:34:47 1993
Subject: Re: NASCAR School?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4369

Yes, Virginia there is a NASCAR school. Right there at God's own Charlotte
Motor Speedway. Last I read Buck Baker was running it. A couple of hacks at
Car and Driver went there and wrote an article about it. Apparently, the 
writer was told he was fast enough to qualify back of the pack in a real
Winston Cup race. Seem to remember it cost somewhere in the middle 4 figures
but I may be wrong about that.

Jeff
cr00jsa@ctccummins.cummins.com

----------
Posted by: emory!uunet.UU.NET!cec1!ctccummins!cr00jsa (J S Armfield)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 23:34:09 1993
Subject: Re: El Camino Mileage mod
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4370


-> As a practical matter, I've put over 100k miles
-> on this engine with no problems until I er, kinda forgot to keep it
-> full of oil.  it now rattles its rods in protest :-(  It still
-> doesn't use any oil, though it does pour it out the rear main seal.
-> JGD]

 Sounds like an ideal time to try my Oldsmobile conrod swap idea.
  Or... pull it, hotrod to taste, and put it in the Datsun, and
stick the Datsun's slightly fried turbomotor in the El Camino.


 I just had a guy flag me down on the way to the pizza place (one
problem with driving a land yacht like a 1960 Chevrolet Bel Air is, it's
easy to spot)  It was a friend of my brother's, who just bought a
completely equipped machine shop from a distressed businessman.  For
$20,000.  Why is it I never luck onto deals like that?  I'd even sell
spare kidneys and whatnot, but noooo.... anyway, Robert has a very
straight Porsche 924 with a very sick motor.  He wants some help
swapping in a Ford 2.3.  Naturally I'll be glad to lend a hand, provided
I get unrestricted access to the tools afterward.

 Ought to beat the snot out of doing engine swaps on a gravel driveway,
wot?
                                                           

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 23:39:38 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4371


-> 1) What epoxy do you use, how much does it cost, and where
-> do you get it?

 The most common material is a mixture of concrete and iron filings.  It
sells for $40 or so; the places advertise in the circle tracker
magazines.


-> 2) How much weight does this introduce into the block?

 Probably on the order of 20 pounds.


-> 3) Do you polish the block with a die grinder?

 Chevrolet and Buick's factory performance manuals are hot on polishing
the inside of the block (die grinder or drill and flap rolls) but in my
opinion it's mainly for gee-whiz effect.  If your engine block is so
poorly cast as to have visible sand stuck to it, that's bad.  However,
if you can't pop it off with a screwdriver, and it's already been there
for fifteen years, to heck with it.


-> 4) Does this epoxy filling really work?

 Absolutely - for engines that need it.  Most engines don't.  The
American production 351 Cleveland Fords and the Olds 403 are probably
the only ones that would benefit at streetable power levels.  For
racing, anything you can do to stabilize the bores will result in more
power; that's why many drag-only aftermarket blocks are cast with no
water jackets at all.
                                                                                                                             

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 23:44:21 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4372


-> again with a full size engine, in the lab, and in the field, to do
-> further durability tests and to refine the system (timing, emulsion
-> method, delivery method, etc...)

 I still don't like the premix idea.  Lots of cars - mine, for example -
sit idle for weeks between uses, in my case since my primary
transportation is a motorcycle.  I'd hate to have my emulsified
fuel/water mix drop out of suspension before I tried to start the car -
after the stuff settled out the injectors would probably be sitting in
water while the gasoline floated up to the higher areas of the fuel
system.  Bad news, particularly if a few freezing days intervened.

 The first thought I had was to use a 12 volt implementation of ye olde
ultrasonic cleaner style mixing chamber and a ring-style fuel manifold
to the injectors.  On starting, the fuel would be pumped through the
ring and chamber to make sure everything was mixed before the injectors
were cycled.  However, separation in the injectors themselves might be a
problem.

 You could probably just use a series of orifices and chambers to
emulsify the mixture, given 50psi or more injector pressure in the ring
main.  A few cycles around and it'd be pretty well mixed if you did it
right.
                                                                                                         

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 23:50:03 1993
Subject: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4373


 I have a slight problem.  I have this 350 Chevy I just put together.
It's on the engine stand with a couple of bolts holding the heads on
because I didn't have the proper sealer for the head bolts.  I've put
together a number of small Chevy motors, and have always been plagued by
water leaking past the head bolts unless I used some sort of sealer,
which is what Chevy recommends.  In the past I've used Permatex #2,
RTV, and KW Copper-Kote antiseize.  All have problems, mainly in leaving
gunk in the holes when I remove the bolts and being a bitch to clean off
the threads.

 I had two sets of Chevy head bolts.  One set had 3/8 inch side bands of
white sealer about 1/2 inch up from the bottom, the other set had black
sealer.  This stuff was evidently applied to the bolt and allowed to set
before installation.  I've seen sealer-coated bolts in catalogs, and I
think that's what Chevy is doing now, rather than using gunk on the
threads.

 Since the sealer affects head bolt torque, it looked like it was worth
a try to see what Chevy recommends for the bolts.  The Chevy Power
manual says GM head bolt sealer.  "Okay," says I.  "I'll just mosey on
down to the Chevy place and pick some up."

 Wrong.  The Chevy dealer's parts department not only doesn't have any,
they didn't want to order any, and it cost $15.36 anyway.  I wandered in
back and asked one of the mechanics what they used, and he just looked
at me like I just got off a saucer from Mars.

 Hokay.  I'll just wander over to the Dodge dealer.  After I carefully
explained what I was after, they assured me Mopar made no such product.
Then the service manager told me he'd assembled "thousands" of small
block Chevy motors, and never had a head bolt leak water.  I told him
that was very nice.

 Since there's no other GM dealer within quite a drive of here, and this
one is the second largest in the state anyway, it's not worth trying to
track any of this stuff down locally.  Does anyone have a favorite head
bolt sealer for the Chevy?
                                                                                                                

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar  4 23:54:21 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4374

Newsgroups: alt.hotrod,wiz.hotrod
Path: cwis.unomaha.edu!devine
From: devine@cwis.unomaha.edu (Robert Howard Devine)
Subject: Re: Factory Literature for Sale
Message-ID: <1993Mar5.002451.1273@news.unomaha.edu>
Sender: news@news.unomaha.edu (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <9r-t30n@dixie.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1993 00:24:51 GMT
Lines: 5


I would like to obtain sales literature for 1970-1971 Plymouth Barracuda
if you have it

Bob

----------
Posted by: emory!dns.unomaha.edu!news (UNO Network News Server)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 01:30:16 1993
Subject: Re: Ok, how do I do water injec
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4375


> 
>[The systems I build for turbo-Z engines are quite similar to the one
>described as the Dick Griffin system on page 135 of McInnes's book.  He

Just curious, but what's the book's title?
Is it "How To Select and Install Turbochargers"?

[Just plain "Turbochargers.  HP book # 49  JGD]

>doesn't use revision numbers (grrr) but this is the version with the
>glowing McLaren installation on the rear cover.  This system uses boost
>pressure supplied to the water resevoir to provide the driving force for
>the injection, thus, the injection flow is metered according to boost.
> 
>In the first installations, I used "pony" beer kegs for the water tanks
>but the shape is not too hot for underhood installation.  For the last
>few I've custom fabricated fiberglass tanks.  This is pretty easy to 

My Father did something like this on his turbocharged Corvair back 
in the eary 70's.  Only he used the windshield washer bottle out of
a VW bug for the pressurized water tank.  He picked the VW water bottle
because in the Bug the air from the spare tire is used to pressurize
the water bottle in order to squirt water on the windshield without the use of 
a pump.  So it didn't take any effort to convert the water bottle for
water injection.  Only problem was that the capacity of the VW bottle was
kinda small.


Steve Cole 			'66 Corvair Convertible
				'65 Turbocharge autoxer (in construction)

[That seemed to be pretty popular back then on Corvairs.  That windshield
washer bottle would last oh, about 5 seconds at the rate I have to inject
for 25-28 psi of boost.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!zeus.tamu.edu!smc9782 (DEAD DOG)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 01:35:32 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4376

Brandon Dixon writes:
"OK Dave, I called and got the specs this morning.  For a '74 they want
 5% CO and 500ppm HC, and that's all that they test.  I have no idea
 how difficult it is to meet these specs.  What's it gonna take?"

I knew a fellow who had a Corvette with a hot 427 - this was well
before catalytic converters, low overlap cams, or most any other
emissions control device.  He had difficulty passing the emissions
test because the lowest he could get the HC was 510 ppm.  He finally
got it waived by the referee board (this was in California).

I suspect that any engine even a bit milder than that 427 would
pass 5% and 500 ppm without difficulty.

One of the tricks is to set the idle as fast as possible.  Around
here they limit you to 1000 RPM idle.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 01:40:39 1993
Subject: Re: MSD benefits
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4377

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:


>-> I forgot to mention in my previous posting about MSD boxes that an
>-> MSD-6A will fire a spark plug whose ground electrode has been
>-> completely burned away.  It doesn't fire it real well but it does
>-> run.

> So will a plain, stone stock GM HEI.  My brother bought a '70 Camaro
>someone had dropped an HEI into.  It idled a bit rough, so we decided to
>tune it up.  When we removed the plugs, we found four out of eight had
>no ground electrodes.  Just for kicks, we used pliers to break the
>electrodes off the other four.  It idled a little rougher, but we drove
>it around that way for a couple of days.
>                                                                                                   
So will a plain, stone stock GM point system ;-) I didnt believe it when
I saw it, but I got a 69 6cyl Nova to tune up one day, it started, ran smooth,
idled in drive, etc, but the plug electrodes were history.

JD

----------
Posted by: emory!sfu.ca!jimd (Jim Davies)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 16:32:37 1993
Subject: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4378


-> OK Dave, I called and got the specs this morning.  For a '74 they
-> want 5% CO and 500ppm HC, and that's all that they test.  I have no
-> idea how difficult it is to meet these specs.  What's it gonna take?

 Tune the carbs with the O2 sensor like you mentioned.  Set the timing
to the stock '74 spec.  Make sure the valves are properly adjusted.
Put in a set of fresh plugs and make sure the ignition is in good shape.
Then go down and get it tested - yeah, it'll cost money, but until you
know what you need to work on, you can bench race until you're blue in
the face.  If you're only slightly out, or out on one or the other only,
then we can formulate a plan.  If it smokes the sniffer out we might
have to just shove a potato up the exhaust pipe.   
                                                      

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 16:42:56 1993
Subject: Block filler/Stroking my 351W...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4379


>>>- -> 1) What epoxy do you use, how much does it cost, and where
>>>- -> do you get it?
>>>
>>> The most common material is a mixture of concrete and iron filings.  It
>>>sells for $40 or so; the places advertise in the circle tracker
>>>magazines.

	Name of the stuff is "hard block". It can be ordered from any of the
	aftermarket parts places, like summit. Two five gal."buckets" do one 
	block. (from bottom of block to ~3" from deck height for racing).
>>>
>>>
>>>- -> 2) How much weight does this introduce into the block?
>>>
>>> Probably on the order of 20 pounds.

    About right... It's less weight than the water that you displace...
>>>
>>>
>>>- -> 3) Do you polish the block with a die grinder?
>>>
>>> Chevrolet and Buick's factory performance manuals are hot on polishing
>>>the inside of the block (die grinder or drill and flap rolls) but in my
>>>opinion it's mainly for gee-whiz effect.  If your engine block is so
>>>poorly cast as to have visible sand stuck to it, that's bad.  However,
>>>if you can't pop it off with a screwdriver, and it's already been there
>>>for fifteen years, to heck with it.

	Sand the inside? why? Paint would do the same thing.
	(help return the oil to the bottom a little quicker)
>>>
>>>
>>>- -> 4) Does this epoxy filling really work?
>>>
>>> Absolutely - for engines that need it.  Most engines don't.  The
>>>American production 351 Cleveland Fords and the Olds 403 are probably
>>>the only ones that would benefit at streetable power levels.  For
>>>racing, anything you can do to stabilize the bores will result in more
>>>power; that's why many drag-only aftermarket blocks are cast with no
>>>water jackets at all.

	Good answer dave... But.. You didn't mention the "adverse" effects 
	from using block filler. The more filler you use, the less coolant
	(anti-freeze) you are capable of using. If you plan on street driving 
	your car, and you add hi-po parts, the biggest thing you will face is 
	cooling it off. The manufacturer claims heat dissipation of block
	filler is comparible to cast iron. (can store much heat)

	If you want to use this stuff(in a street driver), i'd suggest using 
	about 1/2 of the bucket to fill the bottom 3 or 4 inches of the block.
	And the biggest radiator you can get. 

>>>Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)

	-dan a.
	dhoward@stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 16:52:21 1993
Subject: please put good subject lines
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4380


	For - No subject line,
	and - old subject lines whose contents have changed/evolved
	    - when replying to a post people can take the trouble to
	      suitably change the subject line.


	      so that the mail readers can glean a bit of information
	      about the topic of the post from the Subject line.

	      Thanks

[The list software fills in "No subject line" when the submitter forgets
to and I don't catch it.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!ws19.b30.ingr.com!tulsi (Neeraj Tulsian)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 16:57:53 1993
Subject: Re: Ok, how do I do water inject?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4381


You could make something, -or- spend around $80.00 for the kit edelbrock 
makes. They give you all the peices. 

The only thing that might be a drawback for a turbo is that the "store bought"
kit works off of vacum. Works fine for compression motors. Unsure what effect
a turbo that makes boost would have on the purchased system...

Do vacum lines on a turbo still have suction when the turbine kicks in?

-dan a.
dhoward@stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 17:02:10 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4382

I looked in my black cabinet where all my magical secrets and goups are
stored and I have been using the #2 permetx(gunky dark brownish,gooy,
sticky stuuf right) and have recently gone to Permatex SUPER 300
FORM A GASKET SEALANT PART NUMBER 83H.  I have use both over the last
twelve years on both my 225 v6 buick and small block for without trouble.
I do chase the bolt holes and clean my head bolts everytime starting new
with new goup when I put a head back on. Mike

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 17:07:07 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4383

Dave Williams writes about SB Chevy head bolts:
" Since there's no other GM dealer within quite a drive of here, and this
one is the second largest in the state anyway, it's not worth trying to
track any of this stuff down locally.  Does anyone have a favorite head
bolt sealer for the Chevy?"

I never had any trouble with leaks when using Permatex #2 on the
threads.  When GM started selling the precoated bolts I took to
the practice of brushing off their coating and using Permatex #2.
Since I don't do a lot of engines the Permatex residue isn't that
important to me.

GM must have figured that a few cents more for precoated bolts
would have saved more than a few cents in the assembly operation.
Like the time when they saved a few cents by omitting the little
flap that swings away and admits your key into the door lock.
When the new models came out in the fall nobody noticed any problems
but when the freezing weather hit there were a lot of very irate
customers.  I wish that GM would get its management act together.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 17:29:05 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4384




I've been through this procedure a few times, both in California
and Oregon, and perhaps the following will help:

It sounds like they are testing only idle emissions, since the CO and
HC are that high. In both states, idle is specified for all cars to
be below 1000 RPM. So when all is said and done, you've got to be able
to get the idle this low. The higher without going over, the better,
since you get faster airflow and better fuel vaporization.  It would
be perfect if you could get the idle at a solid 950 RPM.  You may want
to check your state's specs to see if they're any different.

For timing, retard it as much as possible.  This will also affect the
carburetor mixture and idle adjustments.  You'll have to juggle all
three to get it right. I've found that you must use stock timing or
less, and retarding timing will also help mixture burning and make up
for the radical cam.  The cam may not be all that bad - if the overlap
is big enough to suck in more air, this may actually help things, but
then again, you may not be able to get it to idle that low, in which
case you're in trouble.  Retarding the timing will also tend to make
the engine run hotter temperature-wise.

You want to lean out the mixture as much as possible, and still
maintain the idle set above.  This depends on how adjustable your
carburetors are, and what other smog devices you have.  Hopefully, you
still have the PCV valve operational, which contributes some inert air
to dilute the mixture.  Lean out the mixture at idle until the engine
misses and then richen it until its on the verge of missing.  I had a
Spitfire with dual SU's, and this worked to get it under spec, but it
ran pretty dismal performance wise.

Put in a hotter thermostat, 190 or better, since the hotter your engine
runs, the less it will pollute as well.  When you have the test done,
make sure your engine is fully warmed up.

If you can add Air injection, so much the better - my 79 Dodge specs
at 1% CO, I forget the HC. I tried passing the Dodge without the Air
Injection, and it failed miserably (I had put headers on). I think the
CO was up around 4-5%, so it does make a significant reduction. This
is a band-aid fix, since it just helps burn the unburnt gas that comes
out the exhaust ports.  The Dodge doesn't have a catalytic, by the
way, (It's a motorhome), so I doubt adding a cat will help much in
your case, also since they're not measuring NOx.

Cats became available in 1975, and allowed the mfr's to lean out the
fuel mixture. If the mixture is rich, CO and HC are high, and NOx is
low.  If the mixture is lean, CO and HC tend to be low, but NOx is
high.  Prior to 1975, fuel mixtures were rich to keep NOx production
low, but then there were all sorts of other devices (Retarded timing,
Air Injection, EGR, deceleration valves, etc..)  added to cause complete
burning to reduce HC and CO. That and the bumper laws made the '74's
so doggy. When cats were added, the mfr's could lean out the mixture
again, since the cat would reduce the NOx output.

In retrospect, it's almost amusing. When they first started the smog
program back in the Sixties - I was living in the Los Angeles basin at
the time - the air was mostly a constant brown haze. When mfr's
started reducing HC and CO, the brown haze didn't seem to lessen any,
probably because there were just more and more cars on the road.
Then, when they got serious about HC and CO in 1971, all of a sudden
you got a serious grey haze, caused by excessive NOx in the air. Thus,
the mandate to lower NOx as well, and from 1971 to 74, we got
progressively worse performing engines.  But then, from '75 onward, as
the technology became available, the mfr's were able to provide both
better performance and emissions.


Back to the subject at hand...

Like Dave said, run it through first; they won't arrest you if you
fail.  You can do all or some of the above before and then see how it
goes - but at least you'll have some idea of where you are. I've found
that most places are pretty helpful in trying to make you pass. Here in 
Oregon, you can test as many times as you have to without paying
anything; you only pay when you pass the test.  Good Luck - hopefully
it won't be too painful an experience.

[With the specs he listed, though, he should not have to do much more
than install high flow cats.  A good idle will almost meet 400 ppm
as it is.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 17:34:51 1993
Subject: Re: Emissions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4385

Brandon Dixon writes:

>|... The cam is going to be the part the hurts.  First off, you need to run
>|the car through and see what they're checking for and how badly it
>|misses spec.  Some places, for example, only check HC and CO.


>OK Dave, I called and got the specs this morning.  For a '74 they want
> 5% CO and 500ppm HC, and that's all that they test.  I have no idea
>how difficult it is to meet these specs.  What's it gonna take?

One thing I missed--you said your friend (to whom you sold the car) is
going to have to worry about emissions.  I gather you didn't, so presumably
he's in a state with stricter standards.  I know something about California,
but nowhere else--which state does this discussion concern?

--Mark Looper '85 (Goin' back, goin' back, goin' back to Nassau Hall...)

----------
Posted by: emory!cco.caltech.edu!looper (Mark D. Looper)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 17:40:14 1993
Subject: carb cfm question
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4386

All the information that I have read says that the formula to caluclate
cfm needed for a particular engine size is correct.
Then how come my sb chevy (331cuin), which calculates somewhere around
600-625 cfm runs so much better with a 750 cfm Edlebrock then the old
600 cfm Holley? I'm running 11.5-1 compression, Isky 280 hyd. cam, minor
head work (1.94" s), 1-1/2" headers,and a 1963 340 hp 327 alum. intake.

Frank fbs3@oas.psu.edu

[Because the "cfm" figures Holly et al quotes are at some specified but
according to the various pieces of literature, ever changing pressure
drop across the carb.  Typically 1" of mercury.  Your engine makes the
best power, of course, with NO pressure drop in the intake.  That
"750" carb is only flowing whatever your engine needs but it is doing
it at a smaller pressure drop than the 600.  JGD]


----------
Posted by: emory!OAS.PSU.EDU!FBS3     (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 17:44:24 1993
Subject: RE: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4387

Dave,
	I guess I didn't make it clear enough; in this experiment, mixing WAS
in-line. One of the reasons for further experimenting is that these machines
weren't intended for in-line use (although the one whose data appears
in column two was supposed to be step in that direction) They need to improve
the machinery so that it can be attached to a vehicle. The stuff about orifices
and 50 psi in your last post sounds good, but it something that bears 
investigating;  in the first experiment the emulsifier used 8000psig, and 
while no data is given for the machines in the second paper, it is mentioned
that the second machine is smaller and intended to use less power. This machine
yielded poorer results. John's turbo setup is another way of doing the mixing.
(I reread that part after my comment at the end of the summary of paper #2)
Hey John, think you could get a sample of the turbo'd charge? We need to see
how close your setup gets to the drops measured in paper #1, i.e. water 
droplets of <=1um within drops of fuel. If it's pretty close, then I guess
all we'd need to be worried about is the %age of water as has been discussed 
previously. Also what do you use to keep the water from freezing? 

I should get to the next paper this weekend; since mixing on demand is the way
to go, and there has to be some way to get the water from freezing, I'll
next try to lay my hands on the papers about water, fuel, and, alcohol 
emulsions (a few are on the list).

Vince

----------
Posted by: Vince Reed 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 17:54:38 1993
Subject: A message for Dave Williams
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4388


Dave,
	I do still have a few questions; I never got your address so I could
send them to you. 

Vince

Vince Reed
vince@jsrvx1.ucsf.edu

----------
Posted by: Vince Reed 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 18:34:11 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4389

>  I have a slight problem.  I have this 350 Chevy I just put together.
> It's on the engine stand with a couple of bolts holding the heads on
> because I didn't have the proper sealer for the head bolts.  I've put
> together a number of small Chevy motors, and have always been plagued by
> water leaking past the head bolts unless I used some sort of sealer,
> which is what Chevy recommends.  In the past I've used Permatex #2,
> RTV, and KW Copper-Kote antiseize.  All have problems, mainly in leaving
> gunk in the holes when I remove the bolts and being a bitch to clean off
> the threads.
> 
> Then the service manager told me he'd assembled "thousands" of small
> block Chevy motors, and never had a head bolt leak water.  I told him
> that was very nice.
> 
>  Since there's no other GM dealer within quite a drive of here, and this
> one is the second largest in the state anyway, it's not worth trying to
> track any of this stuff down locally.  Does anyone have a favorite head
> bolt sealer for the Chevy?

On the last SBC I built, I used ARP studs.  Put it together without
sealer and had water oozing thru the nuts as soon as I filled the radiator.
Pull the heads and reinstalled the stud with Loctite brand teflon pipe
sealant.  So far, no leaks.  YMMV, and the type of sealant used will affect
the torque required for a given bolt tension.  I can't comment on how
hard it is to get the stuff the stuff off the threads tho, as I've never
pulled the studs out.  Anyone know of any problems with using a thin
layer of teflon tape?


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 18:44:36 1993
Subject: Televised Events #93-8
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4390


----------------------------------------------------------------------
			       TV Events

A compilation of info. gleaned from TV listings, auto mags., newspapers,
tea leaves, and my favorite bartender. I am also starting to receive 
information directly from TNN (The Nashville Network), and am very 
grateful to them for their help. PLEASE confirm dates and times with 
your local listings before setting your VCRs.

TVE will USUALLY be updated on Friday morning and will be most accurate
(or least inaccurate) for the following 7 days. If your favorite event
is "TBA'd", please don't panic unless it's in the 7 day window.

If you are having trouble with this list arriving at your site in
a timely fashion, please let me know via e-mail and I will also start
mailing you a copy.

Comments, suggestions, additions, extra pit passes, etc. to:
					  stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil

		   ---------------------------------

(T)=Taped  (L)=Live  (SD)=Same Day  (?)=dunno

    EVENT                             DATE     TIME(Eastern)  NETWORK

Motoworld                             3/5      1:00-1:30PM      ESPN
World Of Speed & Beauty               3/6      9:30-10:00AM     TNN
Shadetree Mechanic                    3/6      10:30-11:00AM    TNN
Wild About Wheels                     3/6      12:30-1:00PM     DISC
BUSCH GN, RICHMOND (L)                3/6      1:00-3:00PM      TNN
NHRA Today                            3/6      3:00-3:30PM      TNN
Inside Winston Cup                    3/6      3:30-4:00PM      TNN
Truckin' USA                          3/6      4:00-4:30PM      TNN
Motoworld                             3/7      2:30-3:00AM      ESPN
Truckin' USA                          3/7      9:00-9:30AM      TNN
Truck & Tractor Power                 3/7      9:30-10:00AM     TNN
Winners                               3/7      10:00-10:30AM    TNN
NHRA Today                            3/7      10:30-11:00AM    TNN
Inside Winston Cup                    3/7      11:00-11:30AM    TNN
RaceDay                               3/7     11:30AM-12:00PM   TNN
WINSTON CUP, RICHMOND (L)             3/7      1:00-4:35PM      TBS
NHRA, MILE HIGH NATIONALS, DENVER (T) 3/7      2:00-3:30PM      TNN
NHRA Today                            3/7      3:30-4:00PM      TNN
Inside Winston Cup                    3/7      4:00-4:30PM      TNN
Winners                               3/7      4:30-5:00PM      TNN
Shadetree Mechanic                    3/7      6:30-7:00PM      TNN
NHRA, ARIZONA SPORTS NATIONALS (T)    3/7      7:00-8:30PM      TNN
RaceDay                               3/7      8:30-9:00PM      TNN
Road Test Magazine                    3/7      11:00-11:30PM    TNN
Truck & Tractor Power                 3/7     11:30PM-12:00AM   TNN
Truckin' USA                          3/8      12:00-12:30AM    TNN
Winners                               3/8      12:30-1:00AM     TNN
AMA, CAMEL PRO, SACRAMENTO (T)        3/9      5:00-6:00PM      ESPN
Motoworld                             3/10     4:30-5:00AM      ESPN
Monster Trucks                        3/10     3:30-4:00PM      ESPN
1991 AMA Camel Pro Highlights         3/10     5:00-6:00PM      ESPN
Movie: Drive Like Lightning ??        3/10     9:00-11:00PM     USA
Monster Trucks                        3/11     3:30-4:00PM      ESPN
Detroit Auto Show                     3/12     12:00-1:00AM     ESPN
Motoworld                             3/12     6:00-6:30PM      ESPN
MOTORCYCLE RACING, ROAD ATLANTA (T)   3/13     1:30-2:00AM      ESPN

		  ----------COMING EVENTS----------                

BUSCH GN, ATLANTA (L)                 3/13     1:00-3:30PM      TNN
WINSTON CUP, ATLANTA (L)              3/14     1:00PM           ABC
FORMULA 1, KYALAMI, SOUTH AFRICA (T)  3/15     8:00-10:00PM     ESPN
BUSCH GN, MARTINSVILLE (L)            3/21     1:00-3:00PM      TNN
INDYCAR, OZ (?)                       3/21     2:00-4:00PM      ABC
BUSCH GN, DARLINGTON (?)              3/27     TBA              TBA
IROC #2, DARLINGTON (?)               3/27     (live coverage unlikely)
WINSTON CUP, DARLINGTON (L)           3/28     1:00-4:30PM      ESPN
FORMULA 1, INTERLAGOS, BRAZIL (T)     3/29     12:00-2:00AM     ESPN
BUSCH GN, RICHMOND (L)                4/3      3:30-5:00PM      TNN
WINSTON CUP, BRISTOL (L)              4/4      1:15PM           ESPN
INDYCAR, PHOENIX (L)                  4/4      4:00-6:00PM      ABC
NHRA, WINSTON INVITATNL ,ROCKINGHAM(L)4/4      5:00-6:05PM      TNN
AMA, DAYTONA 250 SUPERCROSS (T)       4/4      7:05-8:30PM      TNN
NHRA, WINSTON INVITATNL ,ROCKINGHAM(T)4/5      1:00-2:05AM      TNN
BUSCH GN, HICKORY, NC (L)             4/10     4:00-6:00PM      TNN
FORMULA 1,DONNINGTON PARK,ENGLAND(?)  4/11     TBA              TBA
ASA, I-70 SPEEDWAY, ODESSA, MO (L)    4/11     2:00-4:00PM      TNN
WINSTON CUP, N. WILKESBORO (L)        4/18     1:00PM           ESPN
INDYCAR, LONG BEACH (?)               4/18     TBA              TBA
AMA, DAYTONA 200 (T)                  4/18     7:00-8:30PM      TNN

__________________________________________________________________________
Bill Stoffel              |  CARDEROCKDIV, NSWC  |<- x-DTRC               |
stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil |  Code 859            |   x-NSRDC              |
(410) 267-3825            |  Annapolis, MD 21402 |   x-DTNSRDC (et alia)  |
_________________________________________________|________________________|

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!stoffel (William Stoffel)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar  5 20:10:58 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performanc
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4391

GatorMail-Q                   RE>Emmisions vs. Performance 
>-> OK Dave, I called and got the specs this morning.  For a '74 they
>-> want 5% CO and 500ppm HC, and that's all that they test.  I have no
>-> idea how difficult it is to meet these specs.  What's it gonna
take?

> Tune the carbs with the O2 sensor like you mentioned.  Set the timing
>to the stock '74 spec.  Make sure the valves are properly adjusted.

I took my 72 LeMans in last year tuned like I had been driving it and
it registered about 10% CO and 1200ppm HC.  Stock 350 with 134k miles,
Q-Jet, headers, very worn cam.  Just changing the timing back to stock
9 BTDC from 14 BTDC brought the readings back to 3% CO and 400ppm HC. 
Throttle response went to hell after that adjustment though.  Anyone
know if going less BTDC brings emissions down even more?  What is the
optimum timing for emissions?

Jim  rzaa80@email.sps.mot.com


----------
Posted by: "Jim Chott" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 20:31:16 1993
Subject: Re: Emissions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4392

Brandon Dixon writes:

>|... The cam is going to be the part the hurts.  First off, you need to run
>|the car through and see what they're checking for and how badly it
>|misses spec.  Some places, for example, only check HC and CO.


>OK Dave, I called and got the specs this morning.  For a '74 they want
> 5% CO and 500ppm HC, and that's all that they test.  I have no idea
>how difficult it is to meet these specs.  What's it gonna take?

And Mark Looper asks:
which state does this discussion concern?


The car was previously registered in Tennessee (No inspection at all),
but now the engine is going to be in a car registered in NJ.

Did I understand you right John, that if we have trouble passing without
a cat. that it will surely pass with one?

>[With the specs he listed, though, he should not have to do much more
>than install high flow cats.  A good idle will almost meet 400 ppm


Thanks!
Brandon
bdd@cs.princeton.edu

----------
Posted by: Brandon Dixon 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar  5 20:37:20 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4393

Here on the coast in Beautiful British Columbia, the Greater Vancouver Regional
District has started an Air Care program which seems to have similarities to
emission testing in areas of the States that I have seen referenced.

The only difference seems to be they stipulate two tests, one at idle and
another at a loaded condition.  For example a pre '75 spec here is:

	Idle   1500 HC, 6.5% CO

	Loaded 500 HC, 4.5% CO

What is the loaded condition?  

Right now I don't have a problem because I drive a stock 88 Nissan Pulsar SE,
but I will be putting my 68 Camaro on the road this Spring, and have dreams of
building a Ford FE big-block powered Cobra replica before long as well.

The sudden haste towards the Cobra is due to upcoming changes to the Motor 
Vehicle Act here.  After August 31, 1994 the motor that you use in your
replicar, replikit, specialty vehicle and ubilt must be a 1988 or newer motor. 
Not only meeting 1988 or newer emissions, but a 1988 or newer motor.  This
ruling would of course jeopardize any attempt to make a monster FE motor - thus
the haste.

As a side note, a hotrod - ie. a souped up '36 Chevy with new running gear and
the like, is considered a "specialty vehicle" here, so the same rules would
apply for engine swaps.

Do these rules apply to areas in the States as well?  I haven't read any talk
on them.

----------
Posted by: "Russell M. King, TRIUMF, (604)222-1047x311" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar  6 00:55:02 1993
Subject: Re: please put good subject lines
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4394

Some of us don't have software which allows for the changing of
subject lines.  And some of us have no input into the organization
that furnishes network services :-(.  Sorry.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

[That's why I patch in the "no subject" header if someone forgets and
I miss it.  I figure people would rather get the info in a slightly
defective wrapper than not to get it.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar  6 16:54:29 1993
Subject: RE: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4395


-> investigating;  in the first experiment the emulsifier used 8000psig,
-> and while no data is given for the machines in the second paper, it
-> is mentioned that the second machine is smaller and intended to use
-> less power.

 Jeez.  I should imagine so!  Most of the generic hydraulic stuff I've
seen craps out around 3500psi; I've never seen any kind of pump for that
kind of pressure.
                                                  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar  7 11:07:21 1993
Subject: octane ratings/performance numbers
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4396

Further to the discussion on octane ratings and avgas performance
numbers, I have dug up some source material, so will attempt to
explain...
...PN knock rating system takes into account the following differences
between aircraft and automotive requirements.

1 In general, improvements in resistance to detonation are used to increase
inlet pressure rather than to increase compression ratios
2 At maximum power, aircraft engines are likely to use fuel-air ratios as
high as Fr=1.8** while in motor vehicles Fr** seldom exceeds 1.3
3 Many fuels available for aircraft have a resistance to knock greater than
that of isooctane

...PN determination methods differ from the methods used for motor fuels 
chiefly in that;
1 the engine is run at higher speed
2 the variable used to produce knock is inlet pressure, rather than
compression ratio
3 the complete useful range of fuel-air ratios are explored

note: the standard CFR test engine is used

**havent found the definition of Fr yet, but best guess is Fr=stoichiometric

Lean and rich performance numbers are determined from KLIMEP* as follows:

(100 x klimep) / klimep0     lean

and

(100 x klimep) / klimep0     rich

*KLIMEP --> knock limited indicated mean effective pressure, obtained
by varying the inlet pressure at constant compression ratio and inlet
pressure.

klimep0 --> is klimep for isooctane

In other words, PN is derived from, and based on isooctane as a
standard for detonation resistance. It is an AN standard, with
data derived from the standard CFR knock engine. Some examples
of the relationship between octane/PN are;

100 octane = 100 PN
95 octane = 85 PN
90 octane = 75 PN
            108 PN = isooctane plus .25cc TEL/gallon
            115 PN = isooctane plus .5cc TEL/gallon
NOTE: TEL appears to change knock ratings a great deal with some
fuel types, and much less with other things, such as benzol.

Jim Davies
;
ly

----------
Posted by: emory!sfu.ca!jimd (Jim Davies)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar  7 11:13:01 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4397


-> Pull the heads and reinstalled the stud with Loctite brand teflon
-> pipe sealant.  So far, no leaks.  YMMV, and the type of sealant used
-> will affect the torque readings

 Exactly.  I'm somewhat of a freak for properly torquing bolts,
particularly since I once used a moly lube on the bolts of a 2-liter
Ford and had the damned head bolts back out!  No fake.  There's umpteen
zillion goops and tapes to keep the threads from leaking, however I want
to obtain the proper clamping load, which is only indirectly related to
torque in the first place.

 Last night I coated the threads with KW Copper-Kote and ran 'em in
at 65 ft-lb as recommended.  Oh... and depending on where you look, the
Chevy head bolts should be torqued from 65 to 85 ft-lb.  Weird.
Properly, you'd assume there'd be a different spec between the long and
short bolts...
                                                                                                      

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar  7 11:17:50 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4398


-> The sudden haste towards the Cobra is due to upcoming changes to the
-> Motor Vehicle Act here.  After August 31, 1994 the motor that you use
-> in your replicar, replikit, specialty vehicle and ubilt must be a
-> 1988 or newer motor. Not only meeting 1988 or newer emissions, but a
-> 1988 or newer motor.  This ruling would of course jeopardize any
-> attempt to make a monster FE motor - thus the haste.

 Well, that proves Canadian legislooters are just as stupid as their
brethren south of the border.    I don't know of anything like
that here, though the FUD factor is pretty high in some states.

 Down Under in Oz, some states have passed laws banning engine swaps
unless they're certified by a Registered Professional Engineer.
                                                                      

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar  7 13:58:36 1993
Subject: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4399

Does anyone know of a good text or papers on ignition timing?
I finnally went back to a computer controlled HEI on my natural gas
truck, and dove into the stock spark curve today.  I was totally amazed
at how much the stock curve backs off advance as MAP increases.
At 3600+ RPM, advance is 27 deg at 30-50KPa, and drops to 13 deg
by 100KPa.  For the mechanically oriented, that means at wide open
throttle, total advance ("initial" + "centrifugal") is a maximum
of 13 degrees.  This value does not seem reasonable to me,
for a smallblock chevy with 9.1:1 compression.  Maybe aftermarket
proms aren't the snake oil I always thought them to be?

(Just in case someone from GM reads this...)
Disclaimer: This information was observed experimentally with diagnostic
            tools.  Any simularity to information contained in
	    confidential GM documentation would only indicate
            that the GM ECM and my diagnostic equipment are functioning
            properly.

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar  7 14:31:33 1993
Subject: How to pass emissions tests
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4400

> Brandon Dixon writes:
> 
> >|... The cam is going to be the part the hurts.  First off, you need to run
> >|the car through and see what they're checking for and how badly it
> >|misses spec.  Some places, for example, only check HC and CO.
> 
> 
> >OK Dave, I called and got the specs this morning.  For a '74 they want
> > 5% CO and 500ppm HC, and that's all that they test.  I have no idea
> >how difficult it is to meet these specs.  What's it gonna take?
> 
> And Mark Looper asks:
> which state does this discussion concern?
> 
> 
> The car was previously registered in Tennessee (No inspection at all),
> but now the engine is going to be in a car registered in NJ.
> 
> Did I understand you right John, that if we have trouble passing without
> a cat. that it will surely pass with one?
> 
> >[With the specs he listed, though, he should not have to do much more
> >than install high flow cats.  A good idle will almost meet 400 ppm
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> Brandon
> bdd@cs.princeton.edu
  
You certainly can install the cat(s), but that is overkill.  I am running
a warmed over 355 Chev. and can make somewhere between 0.4 and 0.8% CO at
150 to 200 PPM of HC.  This is towing engine that I built with more cam,
more compression, 14 BTDC on timing, and has NO emission control 
components except PCV valve and air injection.  Test readings above are 
with the air injection plugged.  Note that the above numbers will pass 
any state except California for 1992 cars!  Truck numbers are looser.  
It did not come with an EGR valve, and almost for sure will fail the 
NOX test.

As a practical matter, if there is no roughness at idle due to the cam,
you could expect 200 to 400 for HC.  500 PPM of HC will be a rough idle
on most engines.  Vacuum leaks, carb problems or ANY weakness in the 
ignition system with send the HC reading through the roof.  Misfire of 
any sort (including a lumpy cam) will increase HC.  

CO readings as a normal mechanic tunes a carburetor can be from 1 to 4%.
Somewhere near 5% CO you start to get plug fouling with lots of time at
idle.  Between 5 and 7% the exhaust becomes black and visible.  At 8 to
9% CO the car is so rich it will foul plugs unless you rev it and clear
it out frequently.  5% CO is a very rich engine, and will normally lead
to oil dillution in short trip usage.  You should be able to 
use the lean drop method or other similar procedure from the emission 
label to get the CO below 1.5% without too much trouble.  Lean mixtures
at idle are really great because the CO is low, and the plugs stay hot.
Anything you do to keep the plugs firing right keeps HC down as well.
Don't get so lean that the engine gets shaky, at that point you are into
lean misfire and the HC readings rise quickly.  Make every effort to have
all idle mixtures (and carburetors) the same.  There is a great way to 
do this with propane.

My point is don't spend money until you know where you are.  Find a
repair shop with an exhaust gas analyzer and learn what high
emissions sound like on the engine.  If the best you can do is only
close, see below.

Testing tips:

	Change the oil before your emissions inspection.

	Use a high idle speed so spark plugs stay hot.

	Retard ignition up to 6 degrees from stock specs.

	Make sure your idle mixture is done AFTER the timing and 
	idle speed.

	Test your car the same day as you set the carb.  Reset
	the carb if a weather change or big temp change occurs 
	before the test.

	Make sure the engine is FULLY warm before testing.

	Don't start it and just plug in the probe, run at 2000+ RPM for
	30 seconds or more.  A short drive just before the test is 
	great.

Just using these tips can cut emissions numbers in half on most cars.

-- 
Rick Kirchhof   Austin, Texas                   | Experience is what you
Domain: rick@posms.aus.tx.us                    | get when you don't
Bang path: .....!cfi.org!posms!rick             | get what you want.            
===========================================================================

----------
Posted by: emory!posms.aus.tx.us!rick (Rick Kirchhof)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar  7 16:30:15 1993
Subject: unusual Slick 50 application
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4401

I only use the GREASE, not the treatment, so no need to flame me.

S-50 can be put on points. it can conduct electricity.

what if a piece of metal was coated heavily, had a positive

or negative terminal attached to it, placed in an electrolytic

solution, and the other terminal dunked in?

complete the circuit. probably not very safe, but

could the metal be coated/impregnated?

strange.  might work

----------
Posted by: emory!ecs.umass.edu!BOZEK
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 02:33:52 1993
Subject: Re: water injection / emulsified fuels
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4402

The only problem I ever had with my water injector setup was when I ran
the engine real hard, dragging, it would literally eat the plugs!
I ran a FORD window-washer pump setup. Filled it with a 50/50 mix of
ethanol and water, bumped my timing up from 14 to 18 initial. Sliced a
full tenth from my times but after each run I had to change the plugs.
The initial gap was 0.032 but when I pulled the plugs, the center
electrode was eroded to the point that the gap would be ~.100 !
I noticed the engine running somewhat rough when returning to my pit,
lucky I had some extra plugs. Sent my pit crew, my brother, into town for
a few boxes of plugs. It was expensive in plugs but I took the win each
day for three days! Total in purse money took care of the expenses.
Oh yes there was a funny green crystalization/growth on the ground
electrode and around the insulator, that I never could figure out,
I don't think they had copper centers around here in '82.
I'll be running the same setup on my 427W. :)

***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt                        met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 (soon to be a 427W) 4spd/CR 
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 3-dueces and an Auto 
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto (SPORT console)
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 02:47:22 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4403

In alt.hotrod you write:


>-> The sudden haste towards the Cobra is due to upcoming changes to the
>-> Motor Vehicle Act here.  After August 31, 1994 the motor that you use
>-> in your replicar, replikit, specialty vehicle and ubilt must be a
>-> 1988 or newer motor. Not only meeting 1988 or newer emissions, but a
>-> 1988 or newer motor.  This ruling would of course jeopardize any
>-> attempt to make a monster FE motor - thus the haste.

> Well, that proves Canadian legislooters are just as stupid as their
>brethren south of the border.    
If our guys were only as stupid as your guys, we would be lucky, but
sadly, our guys are not only demonstrably stupid-er but self-righteous
too :-(

I don't know of anything like
>that here, though the FUD factor is pretty high in some states.

> Down Under in Oz, some states have passed laws banning engine swaps
>unless they're certified by a Registered Professional Engineer.
>                                                                      
This sounds like something that will surely catch on here, the Gov.
hates the idea of people doing things...anything. Maybe they will
hire all the control freaks that the russians seem to be getting
rid of :-( 

RMO

JD




----------
Posted by: emory!sfu.ca!jimd
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 03:53:48 1993
Subject: Re: water injection / emulsified fuels
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4404

> Millam Tackitt wrote
> 
> The only problem I ever had with my water injector setup was when I ran
> the engine real hard, dragging, it would literally eat the plugs!
> The initial gap was 0.032 but when I pulled the plugs, the center
> electrode was eroded to the point that the gap would be ~.100 !
> Oh yes there was a funny green crystalization/growth on the ground
> electrode and around the insulator, that I never could figure out,
> I don't think they had copper centers around here in '82.
> I'll be running the same setup on my 427W. :)

The borning of the tips sound a little like to hot of a plug for all
other things considered.  And the green deposit sounds a lot like
copper oxide.  I know a lot of plugs are made with copper electrodes
that are plated, perhaps you burnt the plating off and were now burning 
into the copper?

If would be interesting to see what it happening to the valves and pistons.
I know a couple people that played with water injection in the late 60's
and claimed decreases in ET's from 12.40 to 12.20's.  However they also were 
forever replacing burnt valves and one even showed me a hole burnt in a 
piston.  True that they didn't have the hardened valves required now for
unleaded gasoline but how hot are things getting in that combustion chamber.

Also if it is such a quick free horsepower gain why don't the car manufacturers
and pro's use it more often?

dennis
 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 04:29:09 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4405

 > 
> In alt.hotrod you write:
> 
> 
> >-> The sudden haste towards the Cobra is due to upcoming changes to the
> >-> Motor Vehicle Act here.  After August 31, 1994 the motor that you use
> >-> in your replicar, replikit, specialty vehicle and ubilt must be a
> >-> 1988 or newer motor. Not only meeting 1988 or newer emissions, but a
> >-> 1988 or newer motor.  This ruling would of course jeopardize any
> >-> attempt to make a monster FE motor - thus the haste.
> 
Simular laws just inacted in Wisconsin should give us fun this October 
when my som will have to reliscense his car.  He has a 1978 Le Mans with
a 1968 Chevey engine.  If we could find a place to mount catalitic
converters without draging them under the ground then we would be burning
up the valves with unleaded gasoline.  Under the old laws it didn't have 
to polution checked for the last 5 years but now what do we do.  If we
haver to change to a 1988 pontiac engine that also means changing the
transmission.

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 04:33:10 1993
Subject: Tubular frames
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4406


If anyone out there knows where I can get info on tubular frames for
an altered drag machine I'm building I'd appreciate a little advice.
Are there any venders of these left today?

dennis

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 14:58:19 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4407

> Jon writes:
> ... On the last SBC I built, I used ARP studs.  Put it together without
> sealer and had water oozing thru the nuts as soon as I filled the radiator.
> Pull the heads and reinstalled the stud with Loctite brand teflon pipe
> sealant.  So far, no leaks.  YMMV, and the type of sealant used will affect
> the torque required for a given bolt tension.  I can't comment on how
> hard it is to get the stuff the stuff off the threads tho, as I've never
> pulled the studs out.  Anyone know of any problems with using a thin
> layer of teflon tape?

Two comments:  If I understand you correctly, you are putting the teflon
tape on the end of the studs which get screwed into the block.  If this is
so, then it might indeed affect the torque when installing the stud (although
teflon is pretty slippery), however, this will in no way affect the torque
you use to install the nut on the stud.

I have disassembled plumbing fittings that were put together using teflon
tape and it is usually possible to just unwind the tape.  It really does
come off quite easily.  However, the fittings in question were never
subjected to any high temperatures such as you will encounter in your
engine.  I don't know if this well make a difference, but I doubt it.

George Kulp

----------
Posted by: emory!gvlf9.VFL.Paramax.COM!georgek
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 15:03:16 1993
Subject: emissions
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4408


I don't know what this exactly does, but all the local hicks swear that putting
steel wool up the tail pipe will greatly reduce emissions. I don't know how it 
works, but I've seen it work so don't tell me it doesn't (no flames, that is).

Also, someone mentioned something about green spark plugs. I used to see this
with my mazda. I replaced the wimpy fuel pumps with a Mallory and now they 
are nice and brown.

----------
Posted by: James D Rosemary 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 15:07:40 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4409

In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
>  > 
> > In alt.hotrod you write:
> > 
> > 
> > >-> The sudden haste towards the Cobra is due to upcoming changes to the
> > >-> Motor Vehicle Act here.  After August 31, 1994 the motor that you use
> > >-> in your replicar, replikit, specialty vehicle and ubilt must be a
> > >-> 1988 or newer motor. Not only meeting 1988 or newer emissions, but a
> > >-> 1988 or newer motor.  This ruling would of course jeopardize any
> > >-> attempt to make a monster FE motor - thus the haste.
> > 
> Simular laws just inacted in Wisconsin should give us fun this October 
> when my som will have to reliscense his car.  He has a 1978 Le Mans with
> a 1968 Chevey engine.  If we could find a place to mount catalitic

Check the law for a grandfather clause that exempts existing (and,
previously legal) swaps from compliance with the new law.  (Actually,
you might want to look at the new vehicle code rather than taking
DMV's word for it.) I don't know what Wisconsin did, but ususally
lawmakers write in this kind of an arrangement.  I don't know if they
do it to be fair (fat chance), or to avoid the heat that would result
when making something retroactively illegal.


Mark

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 16:35:27 1993
Subject: Tubular frames
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4410


If anyone out there knows where I can get info on tubular frames for
an altered drag machine I'm building I'd appreciate a little advice.
Are there any venders of these left today?

dennis

Dennis,

Probably the biggest help to anyone looking for Drag race "anything" is the
"national Dragster" newspaper. There are too many frame companies out there.
(the popular ones: S&W, Art Morrison, Alston, Jegs) There are other, smaller
shops that will build stuff custom for you (and charge appropriately). Get
a copy of national dragster, and make phone calls.

-dan a.
dhoward@sw.stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 16:45:02 1993
Subject: Wired
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4411


I just talked to the people at Jacobs.  They want $46 for the wires
for my rx-7 (only 4 wires).  They claim a resistance less than 150 ohms
per foot.

I saw an add for the MSD wires $38 for an 8 cyl set.  Anyone have their
number handy so I can find out the resistance of their wires?

Thanks
gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil
-------

[I shouda said "get the vendor list from the server."  However, I'm in
a good mood today (sun's shining :-)  MSD 915 857 5200  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!gallant (Robert Gallant)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 16:57:13 1993
Subject: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4412

I am hoping the Hotrod or/and GNTtype lists can provide some help with
either or both of the following quests.

1) Inside the front cover of Buick Power Source (mine's the first
edition, 1985), there is a picture of a dual turbocharged Buick V6 with
what appears to be a FWD transaxle attached.  Do any of you know which
transaxle this is and what applications used it?  It looks like it might
be real handy for an RWD engine swap into my (currently mythical) '65-'69
'vair.

2) I'd also like to find a rotation reversing device/gearbox/transmission
with a 300-500 HP capacity for use in an automotive driveline.  A gear
ratio near 1:1 is preferable, but others may be useable.  It isn't
necessary for the input and output shafts to lie on the same axis of
rotation.  If anyone knows where I should look for such a thingie I'd
like to hear about it.

Thanks.

Mark Walker
mwalker@houdini.eece.unm.edu
505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)
Albuquerque, NM

----------
Posted by: emory!houdini.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar  8 17:52:53 1993
Subject: Drag race engines for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4413

Well, there's an ad in my local paper today that may interest some of you:

(Are you listening George Kozak?)

Race Motors, FRESH or NEW, Must Go!  Chev-355-477-482-500
K.B. 500 cu. in. Make offer! (714)972-1221, (714)544-1880

I called the number and talked to Ron.  These are full up drag motors.  The
Keith Black hemi is new and unfired, set up for alcohol, he'll sell it complete
with blower, injection setup, etc. for (only!) $20K (said it would take $35-40K
to reproduce.)  The Chevies are also drag motors, the 500 is blown alcohol.
He's also got trannies, MSD stuff, etc. for sale, and it sounds like he'll sell
the engines without the blowers and stuff if you want.

If interested, call him, not me.

(George - he said if you're running 9's now, the KB will get you to the 6's.)

David Wright

----------
Posted by: David Wright 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 01:27:50 1993
Subject: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4414


-> of 13 degrees.  This value does not seem reasonable to me,
-> for a smallblock chevy with 9.1:1 compression.  Maybe aftermarket
-> proms aren't the snake oil I always thought them to be?

 For part throttle, the computer (at least the Tuned Port) follows a
programmed map designed to minimize emissions more than anything else,
with override from the knock sensor.  For WOT the TPI simply slams the
spark full forward and lets the knock sensor take over.

 The HyperTech chip we tested slammed the timing 'way up, but according
to the GM diagnostic equipment the dealer let us borrow, the resulting
spark curve was darned near identical to the factory rig.  GM keeps the
350 V8 right on the ragged edge of detonation most of the time.  That's
one of the reasons I think the chips for GM cars are pretty much a rip
off.  You can bump your static timing 4 or 5 degrees and do everything a
HyperTech chip will do, 'cause if it's doing anything else, it doesn't
show up on the Tech 1 or at the drag strip.
                                                                                  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 03:31:13 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4415


-> previously legal) swaps from compliance with the new law.  (Actually,
-> you might want to look at the new vehicle code rather than taking
-> DMV's word for it.) I don't know what Wisconsin did, but ususally

 YES!  I don't know about most states, but Arkansas and Tennessee DMVs
will give away copies of the motor vehicle code to anyone willing to
drive down to the state capitol and ask.  You'll probably be amazed at
what some of your local laws are.

 Arkansas, for instance, has a small rider on the mandatory seat belt
law.  If you're convicted of any traffic violation, you get $5 off the
fine if you claim you're wearing your seat belt.  I don't even have seat
belts in my car, but I thought it was kind of a nice way to take the
edge off ramming geek laws like that down my throat.
                       

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 09:42:55 1993
Subject: Re: Drag race engines for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4416

> David Wright wrote
> 
> Well, there's an ad in my local paper today that may interest some of you:
> 
> (Are you listening George Kozak?)
> 
> Race Motors, FRESH or NEW, Must Go!  Chev-355-477-482-500
> K.B. 500 cu. in. Make offer! (714)972-1221, (714)544-1880

Anyone know where the 714 area code is at?
> 
> I called the number and talked to Ron.  These are full up drag motors.  The
> Keith Black hemi is new and unfired, set up for alcohol, he'll sell it
> complete
> with blower, injection setup, etc. for (only!) $20K (said it would 
> take $35-40K
> to reproduce.) 

Sound like a fantastic street rod motor.  Unfortunatly the alcohol tank
would have to a little large for street use.  And the MPG could get you
a little in the wallet.  I also wonder what a set of mufflers would do
to this since the neighbors might complain whenever you went to work.
  
> The Chevies are also drag motors, the 500 is blown alcohol.
> He's also got trannies, MSD stuff, etc. for sale, and it sounds 
> like he'll sell
> the engines without the blowers and stuff if you want.
> 
> (George - he said if you're running 9's now, the KB will get you to the 6's.)

Gee I wonder what it would do for someone running in the 7's.
> 
dennis

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 09:49:48 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4417

> Two comments:  If I understand you correctly, you are putting the teflon
> tape on the end of the studs which get screwed into the block.  If this is
> so, then it might indeed affect the torque when installing the stud (although
> teflon is pretty slippery), however, this will in no way affect the torque
> you use to install the nut on the stud.
 
I used a liquid teflon pipe sealant on the block end of the studs, not tape.
If I remember right, they were only supposed to be a little more than finger
tight anyway.  My point was that using teflon for normal head bolts could
have adverse effects, but I have no idea how adverse.

> I have disassembled plumbing fittings that were put together using teflon
> tape and it is usually possible to just unwind the tape.  It really does
> come off quite easily.  However, the fittings in question were never
> subjected to any high temperatures such as you will encounter in your
> engine.  I don't know if this well make a difference, but I doubt it.

Yeah, most of the teflon comes off the male thread and out of the female
pretty easily.  Getting ALL of it out is muchmore difficult, but I've found that
the frayed end of a piece of 10 gauge thick stranded wire works pretty well.
I've used telfon tape on water fittings in the heads with no problem,
but I've never had them in for more than a thousand miles or so.
I've also used teflon tape for manifold water fittings, but in general
teflon + aluminum is a bad idea.  I've never tried using teflon tape for
anything besides pipe fittings, tho.  Most of my taping is limited
to 1/8th inch NPT stainless fittings.

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 09:56:00 1993
Subject: Re: Wired
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4418

> I just talked to the people at Jacobs.  They want $46 for the wires
> for my rx-7 (only 4 wires).  They claim a resistance less than 150 ohms
> per foot.

For what it's worth, the $20 Autozone Lifetime Warranty Maganetic
Suppresion wires that I've got on my Jeep are 1.4 ohms per foot.
MSD's magnetic supression wires should be similar, but should have
better insulation aand cost more :).
Typical supression-core wires I've seen (or at least all the ones
I have sitting around the lab) are about 800ohms per foot, even the
spiral core ones.  Supression core, even if spiraled, != magnetic
supression.  So be wary, because there are a lot of expensive
supression core wires out there (Accel and Mallory Pro-Sidewinder
come to mind...).  As always, YMMV.


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 10:02:51 1993
Subject: Re: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4419

> -> of 13 degrees.  This value does not seem reasonable to me,
> -> for a smallblock chevy with 9.1:1 compression.  Maybe aftermarket
> -> proms aren't the snake oil I always thought them to be?
> 
>  For part throttle, the computer (at least the Tuned Port) follows a
> programmed map designed to minimize emissions more than anything else,
> with override from the knock sensor.  For WOT the TPI simply slams the
> spark full forward and lets the knock sensor take over.

I'm not familiar with the TPI ECM...  this is the TBI ECM.  Anyway,
its on the map for all conditions < 3600 RPM, and I don't know exactly
what it does above 3600, and keep forgetting to look (at 3600 I'm starting
to get some boost and am usually concentrating on other things, like cars
in front of me :).  Anyway, here's what the stock MAP vs advance curve
looks like at 3600 rpm (Disclaimer: blah blah look at a scan tool or
get a hand operated vacuum pump and a timing light)
 Advance	MAP (KPa)
 27		30-50
 26		55
 23		60
 22		65
 21		70
 19		75
 18		80
 16		85
 15		90
 14		95
 13		100 aka WFO!
 ^^^ I don't consider this to be slammed at all, in fact it looks pretty damn
wimpy.  I guess the TPI is probably tuned a little better.  Still makes me
sick, tho.

>  The HyperTech chip we tested slammed the timing 'way up, but according
> to the GM diagnostic equipment the dealer let us borrow, the resulting
> spark curve was darned near identical to the factory rig.  GM keeps the
> 350 V8 right on the ragged edge of detonation most of the time.  That's
> one of the reasons I think the chips for GM cars are pretty much a rip
> off.  You can bump your static timing 4 or 5 degrees and do everything a
> HyperTech chip will do, 'cause if it's doing anything else, it doesn't
> show up on the Tech 1 or at the drag strip.
 
Hmmm...  that would make sense, but it certainly doesn't appear to be
the case for LO5 (350 TBI) equipped trucks.  Unfortunately I don't have
a stock truck to play with.                                                                                  
-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 14:00:45 1993
Subject: Lookin' fer work?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4420

Are any of you engineering types looking for work?  The following appeared
in my local newspaper (Daily Local News, West Chester, Pa) today.

Turbo Research Inc.
Project Design Engineer
for Turbomachinery Systems mechanical components,
Tilt pad bearings, seals, lube systems. etc.

M.S. Degree preferred, P.E. license required. 
Prior project references required.

resume to:

Turbo Research, Inc.
Box 454
Lionville, PA 19353

(Lionville is about 30 miles west of Philadelphia)

----------
Posted by: Dave Tartaglia 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 14:04:58 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4421

Jon writes:
... I've also used teflon tape for manifold water fittings, but in general
teflon + aluminum is a bad idea. ...

Please elaborate, why is it a bad idea?

George Kulp

----------
Posted by: emory!gvlf9.VFL.Paramax.COM!georgek
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 14:10:07 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4422


In article  hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>
>1) What epoxy do you use, how much does it cost, and where
>   do you get it?
You can buy a Hard Block Filler from Summit Racing, costs about 58.00
for enough to fill halfway.
>
>2) How much weight does this introduce into the block?
>
5 maybe 7 pounds, I'd guess.

>3) Do you polish the block with a die grinder?
Yep, paper rolls and a couple hours time was all it took to do my 302.
>
>4) Does this epoxy filling really work?
Anything that helps replace the cylinder wall strength on a thin-wall
casting that has been bored .030 or more works. A buddy of mine just
cracked 2 cylinder walls in his .040 over 302, I'm sure that it was due
to the heat and pressure causing flexing along the thinner areas.
I figure that it will also help to ensure that the sleeves are sealed
around the bottoms, I've never had a problem with this, but then I've
never sleeved all eight holes either. 
>
>-Bob
>

***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt                        met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 3-dueces and an Auto 
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto (SPORT console)
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 14:19:47 1993
Subject: Re: Drag race engines for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4423

Dennis Bednarek asks where the 714 area code is (where all the neat
drag engines are) - it's Orange County, California, in between
Los Angeles and San Diego.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 15:55:20 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4424

Dave Williams writes about getting free copies of the Vehicle Code
from Arkansas and Tennessee.

California has something similar - for $3 you can buy a paperback
copy of the Vehicle Code which also has selected sections of other
relevant state codes such as Revenue and Taxation, Health and
Safety, etc.  The only real drawback to this is that you have to
go to the DMV office to buy it, and going to the DMV office is
a painful experience.

Unfortunately, the state codes for California don't have specifics
that would interest us.  The wording about exhaust emissions is
something like 'shall meet the standards promulgated by the California
Air Resources Board'.  So you have to do a bunch of telephoning,
break through the busy signals, get handed from one administrator
to another, end up talking to the person you first talked to, and
finally give up in disgust.

As you can see, I'm grumpy this morning.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 16:00:13 1993
Subject: RE: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4425

>That's one of the reasons I think the chips for GM cars are pretty much >a rip
off.  

That's probably true for normally aspirated engines, but for the computer
controlled turbo cars, a reprogrammed EPROM can make a big difference. Probably
because boost = HP. Obviously at the same time the injection pulse width needs
to be opened up to maintain a safe A/F ratio.

Ron

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 16:05:39 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4426


mwalker@houdini.eece.unm.edu (Mark Walker) writes:
"2) I'd also like to find a rotation reversing device/gearbox/transmission
"with a 300-500 HP capacity for use in an automotive driveline.  A gear
"ratio near 1:1 is preferable, but others may be useable.  It isn't
"necessary for the input and output shafts to lie on the same axis of
"rotation.  If anyone knows where I should look for such a thingie I'd
"like to hear about it.

marine v-drive.  be warned: if it's not on the engine side of the
tranny, it'll be BIG!
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 16:56:00 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4427

>I don't even have seat
>belts in my car...
>
???!!!

Adjusting respect level for poster: minus 5 points.

>Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
>
David Wright

----------
Posted by: David Wright 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 17:06:47 1993
Subject: Re: Drag race engines for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4428

>> David Wright wrote
>> 
>> Well, there's an ad in my local paper today that may interest some of you:
>> 
>> (Are you listening George Kozak?)
>> 
>> Race Motors, FRESH or NEW, Must Go!  Chev-355-477-482-500
>> K.B. 500 cu. in. Make offer! (714)972-1221, (714)544-1880
>
>Anyone know where the 714 area code is at?

Strangely enough, I do.  Southern California, Orange County.  The prefixes are
in Santa Ana, if you care.
>> 
>> (George - he said if you're running 9's now, the KB will get you to the 6's.)
>
>Gee I wonder what it would do for someone running in the 7's.

:-)

Actually, he based that estimate on the fact that George is currently running
a naturally aspirated gas 426 hemi, backtracking the approximate hp that makes
to get a weight estimate, and going back with the hp the KB will make.
(Although he did this kind of quick, but it's probably about right for George's
chassis.)

>Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
> 
David Wright

----------
Posted by: David Wright 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 17:19:52 1993
Subject: Vericom
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4429

Awhile back I posted that Vericom had filed for Chapter 7 protection, while
this is still true, it looks like they are still in business and honing their
product. I called them and talked to the owner. I'd met him and his development
engineer at Brainerd Raceway a couple of years ago and tested one of their
prototypes. It sounds like they have really made some improvements to the
system. It is now called the 2000 and has a load of options. The most
interesting of these is the ability to add an input for RPM's. They also
compute HP and with the RPM's can give you a HP and Torque curve vvs RPM. They
can be reached at (612) 933-0520.

ron
mellum@skyler.mavd.honeywell.com

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 17:23:41 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4430

    Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 04:21 EST
    From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)

    Yeah, most of the teflon comes off the male thread and out of the female
    pretty easily.  Getting ALL of it out is muchmore difficult, but I've found that
    the frayed end of a piece of 10 gauge thick stranded wire works pretty well.
    I've used telfon tape on water fittings in the heads with no problem,
    but I've never had them in for more than a thousand miles or so.
    ... -- 
    Jon Lusky
    lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

That's two interesting properties of Teflon, 1) it's quite inert, 
2) it's very slippery, making it easy to remove and also an excellent
engine seal and oil filter treatment, and 3) it `creeps', sort of
liquid-like, even at room temperatures.  You normally wouldn't notice
it, but it does flow. 

OK, make that three interesting properties.  The three interesting
properties of teflon are ...

I dont know it's melting point, I assume its quite high, so we're not
talking about flowing like water, but exposed to the heat of an engine
block, and with coolant pressure behind it, it _may_ creep enough in
the threads to yeild after some relatively long time -- or may not.

My point is, teflon tape would be very convenient for head studs, but
whoever wants to do the experiment first should keep an eye out for
leaks on the long term.

  bruce
  miller@cam.nist.gov
  

----------
Posted by: Bruce R. Miller 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 17:28:50 1993
Subject: Re: Drag race engines for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4431

>Dennis Bednarek asks where the 714 area code is (where all the neat
>drag engines are) - it's Orange County, California, in between
>Los Angeles and San Diego.

This may be true, but I was rather shocked last weekend, when on a drag
racing program I was watching, the announcer made a statement that
"... there are no long ANY drag strips in So. Cal."  Can that be true?
Just seems hard to believe :^(

>Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
>...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
>
>----------
>Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)

Phil Gunsul

----------
Posted by: emory!mgweed.att.com!prg
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 22:56:16 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4432

In article <32gty7m@dixie.com> emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky writes:
>I've also used teflon tape for manifold water fittings, but in general
>teflon + aluminum is a bad idea.

	Please pardon my ignorance, but could someone explain why this
statement is true?  I'm aware of mixing stainless steel with aluminum being
a bad idea, but I thought that teflon was chemically inert.

Later,
-- 
Chris BeHanna	DoD# 114          1983 H-D FXWG Wide Glide - Jubilee's Red Lady
behanna@syl.nj.nec.com	          1975 CB360T - Baby Bike
Disclaimer:  Now why would NEC	  Squid rating:  9.835% as of 2/25/93
agree with any of this anyway?    I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs.

[I've never heard of aluminum being incompatable with teflon tape.  It
is used in non-radiation areas of nuclear plants, for instance.  Only
problem I know of is Teflon turns to powder at an integrated dose
of about 10,000 RADs.  Oh.. Different career :-)  JGD]

----------
Posted by: emory!phoenix.syl.nj.nec.com!behanna (Chris BeHanna)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 23:07:10 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4433

> 
> Jon writes:
> ... I've also used teflon tape for manifold water fittings, but in general
> teflon + aluminum is a bad idea. ...

Primarily because the teflon is much harder than the aluminum and damages
the aluminum threads, but I think it may also lead to corrosion problems.


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 23:21:28 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4434

In article <0bhtnsl@dixie.com>, hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> mwalker@houdini.eece.unm.edu (Mark Walker) writes:
> "2) I'd also like to find a rotation reversing device/gearbox/transmission
> "with a 300-500 HP capacity for use in an automotive driveline.  A gear
> "ratio near 1:1 is preferable, but others may be useable.  It isn't
> "necessary for the input and output shafts to lie on the same axis of
> "rotation.  If anyone knows where I should look for such a thingie I'd
> "like to hear about it.
> 
> marine v-drive.  be warned: if it's not on the engine side of the
> tranny, it'll be BIG!

Hmmm... I hadn't considered marine equipment, or input/output shafts that
weren't parallel.  Might open up some possibilities though.  

I assume your comment about location and size of such a device is
related to the torque multiplication of the transmission.  My hope is
to use the device between the transmission and differential.   I wasn't
worried too much about the size of the device since Hone overdrives
I've seen in the same arrangement were a reasonable size (i.e. Fit in
the stock driveshaft tunnel), and some transfer cases for 4WDs are on
the outside envelope of the amount of space I am willing to consume.

To clarify the quest, I am considering the conversion of a FWD
automobile to RWD using an early Toronado FWD powertrain (sans final
drive) installed backwards in the engine compartment.  Since this would
result in the transmission output shaft rotating the "wrong" way, I
need a reverser somewhere in the final components of the drivetrain.
I've considered just using the differential upside down, but I want to
keep the tunnel in the passenger compartment as low and small as
possible and upside down would raise the pinion shaft several inches.
(Towards this end I would use an IRS so the driveshaft would be in a
fixed location.)

Any other potiential solutions would be welcome.

Thanks for your help Andy.  

> ----------
> Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)
-- 
Mark Walker	mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar  9 23:31:19 1993
Subject: Re: Drag race engines for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4435

Phil Gunsel writes:
"I was rather shocked last weekend, when on a drag
racing program I was watching, the announcer made a statement that
"... there are no long ANY drag strips in So. Cal."  Can that be true?
Just seems hard to believe :^("

No kidding.  Shows you how reliable the media is these days.

The nearest drag strip to me is Carlsbad Raceway.  Currently
they run drag racing on Saturday afternoons.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 16:32:39 1993
Subject: Re: Drag race engines for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4436

 > 
> Phil Gunsel writes:
> "I was rather shocked last weekend, when on a drag
> racing program I was watching, the announcer made a statement that
> "... there are no long ANY drag strips in So. Cal."  Can that be true?
> Just seems hard to believe :^("
> 
Wow wasn't that where drag racing originally started.  Now look at 
Wisconsin,  we had the same old Union Grove for years and a second at Lake
Genevia intermittantly open over the years.  And this summer for the
first time we will have three strips open within 40 miles of each other.
At Elm Grove they are opening a completly new complex.  

Sounds like the drag racing captial of the world might be moving a little
North East to me.

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 16:41:47 1993
Subject: Re: Lookin' fer work? Not exactly !
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4437

 I reckon driving 10,000 miles across the US was enough work for the time being
 don't you ? How are y'all anyway ? First day back for me...strange it's like I
 never even left the place ! But after a vacation like that I had to come back   to work for a rest ! Thank you thank you thank you and if you're ever in Oz...

                                              ciao for now...
                                              (stories to follow)
                                                                Geof.
   

----------
Posted by: emory!minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU!rxkgre (Geof Evans)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 16:53:04 1993
Subject: Re: Wired
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4438


On 9 Mar 93 04:35, hotrod wrote:

>For what it's worth, the $20 Autozone Lifetime Warranty Maganetic
>Suppresion wires that I've got on my Jeep are 1.4 ohms per foot.
>MSD's magnetic supression wires should be similar, but should have
>better insulation aand cost more :).

Boy that is low!!

I called MSD.  Their wires used to be 150 ohms per foot but are now
850 ohms per foot.  The Jacobs are 150 per foot.

Rob
gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil
-------

[I'm beginning to wonder if we're all talking about the same thing.  Real
MSW is a spiral of metal wire wrapped around a fiberglass or similar
core.  It should have minimal DC resistance.  Any resistance wastes energy
with CDI ignition.  I've measured a peak current of >1amp from the coil
of an MSD system.  Even a little resistance throws away energy.  JGD]

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!gallant (Robert Gallant)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 17:02:02 1993
Subject: Teflon was Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4439



On Tue, 9 Mar 1993, The Hotrod List wrote:

> > Jon writes:
> > ... I've also used teflon tape for manifold water fittings, but in general
> > teflon + aluminum is a bad idea. ...
> 
> Primarily because the teflon is much harder than the aluminum and damages
> the aluminum threads, but I think it may also lead to corrosion problems.

While I've never actually done any hardness tests on teflon,
we do have several LARGE teflon plaques sitting around the building.
They can easily be dented or nicked with a fingernail.  Not quite 
so easy with aluminum.  I would especially think that there 
are no worries about trashing aluminum threads with teflon tape
or teflon "liquid" sealants.

I tend to doubt corrosion problems also, as teflon is 
basically inert, and if anything could help insulate
against galvanic corrosion between two dissimilar metals...

Steve


----------
Posted by: Steve Andersen 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 17:12:54 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4440

> > Jon writes:
> > ... I've also used teflon tape for manifold water fittings, but in general
> > teflon + aluminum is a bad idea. ...
> Primarily because the teflon is much harder than the aluminum and damages
> the aluminum threads, but I think it may also lead to corrosion problems.

Teflon may be harder than aluminum, but is it harder than the steel studs
you're going to be screwing in anyway? I guess that if you have enough of
the teflon that it bunches up and distorts the thread profile of the steel
stud, it could cause problems, but you aren't supposed to use that much...


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com

----------
Posted by: emory!wal.hp.com!lupienj (John Lupien)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 17:21:47 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4441


met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam E. Tackitt) writes:
"I figure that it will also help to ensure that the sleeves are sealed
"around the bottoms, I've never had a problem with this, but then I've
"never sleeved all eight holes either. 

speaking of which, does anyone know what sort of iron sleeves are made
from, and/or where to get/make really thick wall [1/4"] ones?
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 18:16:28 1993
Subject: Re: Vericom
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4442


In article <+ghtl+q@dixie.com>, hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
|> Awhile back I posted that Vericom had filed for Chapter 7 protection, while
|> this is still true, it looks like they are still in business and honing their
|> product. I called them and talked to the owner. I'd met him and his development
|> engineer at Brainerd Raceway a couple of years ago and tested one of their
|> prototypes. It sounds like they have really made some improvements to the
|> system. It is now called the 2000 and has a load of options. The most
|> interesting of these is the ability to add an input for RPM's. They also
|> compute HP and with the RPM's can give you a HP and Torque curve vvs RPM. They
|> can be reached at (612) 933-0520.
|> 
|> ron
|> mellum@skyler.mavd.honeywell.com
|> 
|> ----------
|> Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 


I contacted them about a month ago. They sent info about their VC2000 line
of performance computers.  In addition to adding the tach option, it can
be configured to run on internal nicads (prevents interference from high
energy RF producing race ignition systems)  An RS232 equipt version is available
that includes software to capture data in real time for later analysis. full
IBM computer graphic displays are a part of the package.

We tested one of the 200 series last fall and found it to be very accurate
within +-.1 sec in 1/4 mile. The 2000 series promises to be even better as
it runs at 100MHz vs the 200's 10 MHz clock.

$0.02

Ericy

----------
Posted by: (Eric Youngblood)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 19:37:27 1993
Subject: Re: Drag race engines for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4443

>Phil Gunsul writes:
>I was rather shocked last weekend, when on a drag
>racing program I was watching, the announcer made a statement that
>"... there are no long ANY drag strips in So. Cal."  Can that be true?
>Just seems hard to believe :^("
>
>No kidding.  Shows you how reliable the media is these days.
>
>The nearest drag strip to me is Carlsbad Raceway.  Currently
>they run drag racing on Saturday afternoons.

Ahhhhh, my faith is restored!

>Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
>...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

Thanks Bob.

Phil Gunsul

----------
Posted by: emory!mgweed.att.com!prg
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 19:41:51 1993
Subject: 500 cu. in. Cadillac
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4444




	I have seen a few build-ups of 500 cu. in. Cadillac motors in some the
performance magazines.  These motors interest me a great deal.  I am
considering putting one into my 1975 Formula Firebird.  There is a guy that
specializes in these motors, he own a company called MTS(Maximum Torque
Specialists) that sells two kits for this motor.  The first kit is a 12.90 et
and the other is an 11.90 motor.  Both are very streetable, utilizing 3.42
gears.  I am considering the 11.90 motor.  I am basically asking for opinions
on the 500 Cadillac.  If anyone has any experience modifying them, what are the
little tricks?  Also, what is the bore and stroke?  Are the rods, crank forged
or cast?  What kind of RPM's can the rods handle?  How much does the motor
weigh?  I would normally keep this car all Pontiac, but this motor is so
intriguing.  It turns 11.90's with 3.42 gears, and they seem pretty cheap to
build also.  Any opinions, answers will be much appreciated.

				Thanks for your time,

				Steven Nove

----------
Posted by: emory!ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu!v127klmr (Steven E Nove)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 19:47:02 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4445



>Simular laws just inacted in Wisconsin should give us fun this October
>when my som will have to reliscense his car.  He has a 1978 Le Mans with
>a 1968 Chevey engine.  If we could find a place to mount catalitic
>converters without draging them under the ground then we would be burning
>up the valves with unleaded gasoline.  Under the old laws it didn't have
>to polution checked for the last 5 years but now what do we do.  If we
>haver to change to a 1988 pontiac engine that also means changing the
>transmission.

Yes, this is unfortunate.  A slight decrease in HP/torque for you too I'm
sure, if you can't modify the '68 and end up using a new motor.  Good luck.

Russell

----------
Posted by: "Russell M. King, TRIUMF, (604)222-1047x311" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 19:52:05 1993
Subject: backpressure/overlap
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4446

I am trying to figure out how much backpressure is allowable with 
backpressure. As I understand it, excessive overlap with backpressure
can reduce output due to dilution of intake with exhaust gases. The
backpressure, of course, will be from the muffler (currently a sonic turbo).
The compression ratio is 9.4:1, if that helps (must have something to do
with scavenging). Any ideas?

----------
Posted by: James D Rosemary 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 19:58:48 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4447


-> Yeah, most of the teflon comes off the male thread and out of the
-> female pretty easily.  Getting ALL of it out is muchmore difficult,
-> but I've found tha the frayed end of a piece of 10 gauge thick
-> stranded wire works pretty well.

 Ye Olde gun cleaning brushes (available from K-Mart or Wal-Mart) and a
hand drill or low-speed electric drill work great.


 Don't ever ever ever ever ever ever ever clean bolt holes by using a
tap!  I used to run a tapping machine for a living, and that sort of
stuff will wipe out threads in a heartbeat.
             

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 20:04:01 1993
Subject: Re: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4448


-> 13           100 aka WFO! ^^^ I don't consider this to be slammed at
-> all, in fact it looks pretty damn wimpy.  I guess the TPI is probably
-> tuned a little better.  Still makes me sick, tho.

 Hmm... the Corvette is on the knock sensor at WFO, with advance
determined *only* by the knock sensor.  We've verified that by running
different grades of gas and octane booster through.


-> Hmmm...  that would make sense, but it certainly doesn't appear to be
-> the case for LO5 (350 TBI) equipped trucks.  Unfortunately I don't
-> have a stock truck to play with.

 Is this similar to the old-style (early '80s) TBI, or is this a late
model?  According to my GM EFI diagnostic manual, the late TBI uses the
same computer as the TPI.  Is your truck system mass air or speed
density?  You might be able to swap in the appropriate year Corvette
PROM and see what happens.

 This is quite interesting.  The only GM unit I'm familiar with is the
Corvette's, as I've probably said several times before.  From what I saw
in the generic GM service manuals I didn't expect there to be a whole
lot of difference in the units - after all, the Corvette box actually
has data streams for BOTH TBI and TPI, and from various comments in the
books it looks like it would handle a computer Quadrajet as well.

 Hmm... I had ASSumed the Corvette and F-body TPI systems were the same.
Now I'm beginning to wonder.  Does anyone make an adapter for the GM
chip carriers back to DIP?  I have a nice Needham Electronics EPROM
burner and Jay has access to all the diagnostic equipment at his
friendly Chevy dealer in Memphis.  It'd be interesting to pop in an
F-body chip and look at the resultant spark and fuel curves.
                      

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 20:10:22 1993
Subject: RE: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4449


-> That's probably true for normally aspirated engines, but for the
-> computer controlled turbo cars, a reprogrammed EPROM can make a big
-> difference. Probably because boost = HP. Obviously at the same time
-> the injection pulse width needs to be opened up to maintain a safe
-> A/F ratio.

 Yeah, I keep forgetting the turbo cars.  As long as the wastegate is
under control of the computer you could probably do all sorts of neat
stuff.  Otherwise, to heck with it - on my Yamaha I disconnected the
servo and wired the wastegate shut.  Whomped the boost up from 5psi to
15psi; it'll hold at 15psi for a few seconds, then start slowly climbing
again as it gradually overpowers the popoff valve in the airbox.  I
really need to fix that too...

 Despite claims that I'd ride over my own crankshaft someday, I've been
running the bike that way for eight years!  Blow-through, pressure
balanced carbs too.
                                                

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 20:16:04 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4450


-> >I don't even have seat
-> >belts in my car...
>
> ???!!!
>
> Adjusting respect level for poster: minus 5 points.


 Ask me about my opinion on knee-jerk Seatbelt Believers sometime.

 Chevrolet built cars for around 65 years without providing seat
belts.  My 1960 car and 1965 truck didn't come with them and I see no
particular reason to add any.


 If I had any interest in "safety" I'd be working to adapt an ABS system
instead of bolting in a set of stupid straps.  Fortunately, we
motorcyclists don't seem to have quite the same slant on "safety" as
cagers.

[Ok boys, re-holster those six-shooters and have another beer!  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 20:31:26 1993
Subject: Re:  Teflon was Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4451

 I'm pretty puzzled by all of this controversy. I have one SB Chevy engine
('77 350 4BBL in a van) and I've had the heads off a couple of times. I just
dog them right down, no goop or tape on the bolts, never had a water leak.
The head bolts don't pass through the water jacket as far as I can see.

 Is this something specific to newer SB head/block versions?

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 10 20:36:41 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4452



  As far as I know, from attending some Loctite seminars, Teflon tape is used
on NPT (tapered threads) as lubricant. This allows for greater engagement/
interference of the sharp crest and root. Machine threads can be sealed
with Loctite 271,277 or 290. This only applies to studded engine blocks
where a retorque is still possible.

                        dominic

----------
Posted by: emory!fc.hp.com!dominic (Dominic Scamporrino)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 04:17:37 1993
Subject: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4453

I called Competition Cams for my cam as many of yall suggested.  The guy 
recommended a 35-216-3 cam.  I think that this is a 260H series.  From what
I have read this cam will have 212/212 Dur.@050 for the intake and exhaust.
Lift will be 447 for both intake and exhaust.  My question is why are both
the intake and exhaust lift and duration the same?  The other cams I have seen
have a longer and higher exhaust.  This is also the way Hotrod mag recommends
a cam in a motor build up.  Its going in a 351W, 9:1CR, 1 5/8 headers, 3.00:1
rear, 600Cfm, performer intake, and c-4 trans.  I will probably pick up the 
cam tomorrow if its what I should use.  Thanks.
Tom McClendon
gt7038d@prism.gatech.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!prism.gatech.edu!gt7038d (MCCLENDON,WILLIAM THOMAS)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 04:24:43 1993
Subject: Re: Emissions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4454

Bob Hale writes:

>Dave Williams writes about getting free copies of the Vehicle Code
>from Arkansas and Tennessee.

>California has something similar - for $3 you can buy a paperback
>copy of the Vehicle Code which also has selected sections of other
>relevant state codes such as Revenue and Taxation, Health and
>Safety, etc.

I've found a commercial "Qwik-Code" abridgement in B. Dalton's & Waldenbooks;
if I'd known about the $3 copy I wouldn't have bought a more expensive
abridged version, but it's there (for 1992 anyway) if you don't want to
deal with the DMV.

>Unfortunately, the state codes for California don't have specifics
>that would interest us.  The wording about exhaust emissions is
>something like 'shall meet the standards promulgated by the California
>Air Resources Board'.  So you have to do a bunch of telephoning,
>break through the busy signals, get handed from one administrator
>to another, end up talking to the person you first talked to, and
>finally give up in disgust.

I've been doing a bit of the paper chase with regard to my '70 Caprice, and
maybe I just got lucky, but the Pasadena office of the C.A.R.B. has been
a lot of help in straightening things out.  When you call, ask for somebody
in the "Aftermarket Parts" division--they'll hunt through stuff, or send
you lists of approved parts or copies of E.O.'s, and can send you official
pieces of paper that can be used to get a questionable case past the Bureau
of Automotive Repair (e.g., it's technically illegal for me to use a later
block than 1970 to build a '70-spec 350 for my car, but since all four-bolters
(say) are functionally identical they say it's okay, and I'm writing to request
a piece of paper to hit the smog-check guy with if he makes a fuss).  Just
don't try calling the public-information 800 number--they appear to man those
with human tape recorders who can only answer the simplest questions, and who
have limited knowledge and resources to check complications and no authority
to issue paper.

--Mark Looper
"Hot Rodders--America's first recyclers!"

----------
Posted by: emory!cco.caltech.edu!looper (Mark D. Looper)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 04:31:23 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4455


-> To clarify the quest, I am considering the conversion of a FWD
-> automobile to RWD using an early Toronado FWD powertrain (sans final
-> drive) installed backwards in the engine compartment.  Since this
-> would result in the transmission output shaft rotating the "wrong"

 Okay, you want to turn the Toro rig around to point to the back, remove
the differential, and put in some sort of coupler to run a driveshaft
back to a coventional rear drive suspension.  I presume this is in an
effort not to have to modify the floor pan to clear a conventional
transmission.

 It could be done by flipping the rear as you suggested, but... the Toro
is a BIG package.  Will it fit the proposed body without cutting?  If
you have to cut, you might as well lay up a trans tunnel from
fiberglass.

 With the reversed Toro, chances are you'd STILL have to cut the floor
pan to clear the shaft, which will be offset to the driver's side and
still probably higher than the floor pan.
                                                                                                 

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 04:42:42 1993
Subject: Re: Wired
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4456

> 
> 
> On 9 Mar 93 04:35, hotrod wrote:
> 
> >For what it's worth, the $20 Autozone Lifetime Warranty Maganetic
> >Suppresion wires that I've got on my Jeep are 1.4 ohms per foot.
> >MSD's magnetic supression wires should be similar, but should have
> >better insulation aand cost more :).
> 
> Boy that is low!!
> 
> I called MSD.  Their wires used to be 150 ohms per foot but are now
> 850 ohms per foot.  The Jacobs are 150 per foot.
> 
> 
> [I'm beginning to wonder if we're all talking about the same thing.  Real
> MSW is a spiral of metal wire wrapped around a fiberglass or similar
> core.  It should have minimal DC resistance.  Any resistance wastes energy
> with CDI ignition.  I've measured a peak current of >1amp from the coil
> of an MSD system.  Even a little resistance throws away energy.  JGD]
 
Ouch, I hate it when I do this...  autoranging DVM's should be outlawed :(
Musta sucked a little bit too much methanol exhaust when I checked them last.
I just pulled one off and checked it, approx 600 ohms per foot.  I still can't
figure out where I got the 1.4 number from, but I remember getting it 3 times.
These are spiral of metal wire wrapped around fiberglass...
Argh.



-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 04:55:44 1993
Subject: Re: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4457

> 
> 
> -> 13           100 aka WFO! ^^^ I don't consider this to be slammed at
> -> all, in fact it looks pretty damn wimpy.  I guess the TPI is probably
> -> tuned a little better.  Still makes me sick, tho.
> 
>  Hmm... the Corvette is on the knock sensor at WFO, with advance
> determined *only* by the knock sensor.  We've verified that by running
> different grades of gas and octane booster through.
 
 Hmm, if the 91 TBI ECM does this, then GM didn't mention it anywhere in
the documentation they provided me.  ANd I just reread it to make sure.
On the road, the spark advance stays right on the map for all engine
conditions up until the map runs out at 3600rpm, where it just increases
linearly.  I can think of two possibilites that might cause it to stay on the
map when it shouldn't, if such a mode exist for this ECM/programming.
1) We don't have a TPS at the moment.  According to our docs, its only used
   for fuel, IAC, and lockup, none of which we are using at the moment.
2) The electronics we have plugged into the ECM.  Several large nondescript
boxes with Delco Electronics tags, and a panel mount display that displays
most of what a scan tool would, as well as allowing on the fly modification
of fuel, spark, IAC, and some other things that we haven't been able to
identify.  This stuff is fairly old, had it since at least 1985, but it
has a number of proms in it which may be for calibration to different ECM's.
They've been around longer than anyone else here...

> -> Hmmm...  that would make sense, but it certainly doesn't appear to be
> -> the case for LO5 (350 TBI) equipped trucks.  Unfortunately I don't
> -> have a stock truck to play with.
> 
>  Is this similar to the old-style (early '80s) TBI, or is this a late
> model?  According to my GM EFI diagnostic manual, the late TBI uses the
> same computer as the TPI.  Is your truck system mass air or speed
> density?  You might be able to swap in the appropriate year Corvette
> PROM and see what happens.

I'm not familiar with the old style TBI.  The truck was speed density based,
two injector drivers.

>  This is quite interesting.  The only GM unit I'm familiar with is the
> Corvette's, as I've probably said several times before.  From what I saw
> in the generic GM service manuals I didn't expect there to be a whole
> lot of difference in the units - after all, the Corvette box actually
> has data streams for BOTH TBI and TPI, and from various comments in the
> books it looks like it would handle a computer Quadrajet as well.

>From what I've seen of TPI wiring diagrams (1985 ones), they appear to be
fairly similar, use the same connectors, etc, but I didn't compare
the actual pinouts.   

>  Hmm... I had ASSumed the Corvette and F-body TPI systems were the same.
> Now I'm beginning to wonder.  Does anyone make an adapter for the GM
> chip carriers back to DIP?  I have a nice Needham Electronics EPROM
> burner and Jay has access to all the diagnostic equipment at his
> friendly Chevy dealer in Memphis.  It'd be interesting to pop in an
> F-body chip and look at the resultant spark and fuel curves.

I had assumed that as well.  What exactly do you mean by prom carrier?
All of my ECMs take standard proms (TBI ECM takes a 2732, haven't looked
at the old 'vette TPI ECM), and just have a little plastic piece that snaps
over it.  

I guess I need to call GMC and Delco Electronics next week...

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 05:02:25 1993
Subject: Re: Teflon was Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4458

> 
>  I'm pretty puzzled by all of this controversy. I have one SB Chevy engine
> ('77 350 4BBL in a van) and I've had the heads off a couple of times. I just
> dog them right down, no goop or tape on the bolts, never had a water leak.
> The head bolts don't pass through the water jacket as far as I can see.
> 
>  Is this something specific to newer SB head/block versions?

Not familiar with the older blocks (mine is a 91), but I'll take a look at
one tomorrow (old small journal 327).  Quite a few of the head bolts
on mine go straight thru to the water jacket.  Maybe your bolts are sealing
at the washers?  I'/m using ARP studs and had water oozing thru the threads
at the nuts when I installed them without sealer (ARP docs said nothing
about sealing the block ends, but was quite specific about lubricating the top
ends).


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 08:53:01 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4459


In article , hotrod@dixie.com writes...
>|-> The motor is an 11:1 compression 2.8l six,  the cam is "speced" at
>|-> 290 deg. o the lift is about .5".  The carbs that are on it are 3
>|-> side draft Mikuni's with 37mm venturis.
>|
>| The cam is going to be the part the hurts.  First off, you need to run
>|the car through and see what they're checking for and how badly it
>|misses spec.  Some places, for example, only check HC and CO.

I hear checking for NOx is very difficult and expensive.  In Cleveland, OH,
CO, HC and (believe it or not) CO2 are checked - the CO2 is just for a 
reference.

[The CO2 check is to catch people who simply dillute the exhaust gas
with, for example, lots of air injection.  That spoiled one of my
favorite tricks :-(  JGD]

> 
> 
>OK Dave, I called and got the specs this morning.  For a '74 they want
> 5% CO and 500ppm HC, and that's all that they test.  I have no idea

That's interesting.  For '80 and up, the spec. is 1.2% CO and 220 ppm HC.
Again, that's in Cleveland.  Don't know what they want for '74 - '79 cars.

My '88 Mustang GT managed something like 0.2% CO and 71 ppm HC the last time
it was checked - with ~90,000 miles, dirty oil, etc.  The cam isn't as hot
as yours, with ~0.450 lift and a shorter duration, but it's a reference
point, anyway.

>how difficult it is to meet these specs.  What's it gonna take?
> 
>Thanks
>Brandon
>bdd@cs.princeton.edu
> 
>----------
>Posted by: Brandon Dixon 

Mike Jamison

"Scientific research consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, but
thinking what no one else has thought"

						-A. Szent-Gyorgyi

----------
Posted by: emory!mars.lerc.nasa.gov!edwlt12 (Mike Jamison (ADF))
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 09:00:21 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4460


In article , hotrod@dixie.com writes...
> 
>-> 1) What epoxy do you use, how much does it cost, and where
>-> do you get it?
> 
> The most common material is a mixture of concrete and iron filings.  It
>sells for $40 or so; the places advertise in the circle tracker
>magazines.

Summit Racing sells the stuff.  You can order it in two quantities - enough
to fill the block partially, for street/oval, or enough to completely fill
the block, for short runs only.  Don't remember the price offhand, but it's
not really expensive.  I'm considering doing the same for my 351C (partially
filling the block.  I *do* want to drive the car on the street.  Or is that
race it on the street :) )


Mike Jamison

"Scientific research consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, but
thinking what no one else has thought"

						-A. Szent-Gyorgyi

----------
Posted by: emory!mars.lerc.nasa.gov!edwlt12 (Mike Jamison (ADF))
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 09:31:36 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4461

 > 
> I called Competition Cams for my cam as many of yall suggested.  The guy 
> recommended a 35-216-3 cam.  I think that this is a 260H series.  From what
> I have read this cam will have 212/212 Dur.@050 for the intake and exhaust.
> Lift will be 447 for both intake and exhaust.  My question is why are both
> the intake and exhaust lift and duration the same? 

A little basics here.  Durarion ususaully is in steps.  as listed below 
from mild to wild.

intake	exhaust
252	252
252	260
260	260
260	268
268	268
270	270
270	280
280	280
280	292
292	292
292	302
302	302
302	312
312	312

Lift is a product of duration and ramp speed or how fast a lifter is being
pushed up and for how long.  The ramp speed varies by vender of cam and
what type of lifter they designed the cam to run with.  High end performance
is increased by having both a high duration and high lift.  Basicly allows
more fuel air mixture in the chamber per revolution.  However this also
causes a negative effect at bottom end and therefore the lower the duration
the better things run on the bottom.  Other factors like compression ratio
and overlap effect bottom end but lets keep this simple.

> The other cams I have seen
> have a longer and higher exhaust.  This is also the way Hotrod mag recommends
> a cam in a motor build up.  Its going in a 351W, 9:1CR, 1 5/8 headers, 3.00:1
> rear, 600Cfm, performer intake, and c-4 trans.  I will probably pick up the 
> cam tomorrow if its what I should use.  Thanks.

This is a very mild cam or torque cam.  Will give you lots of bottom end with 
slight gains on top.  Yhe key here is that 3.00 rear end.  With a rear end like
that you need the bottom end torque and if you can run 6,000 rpm's in high
gear you would be going close to 230 miles per hour.  That's unlikely so they
put you in a cam that puts out the torque in the bottom end.  Note this is a 
common cam in tow trucks that need that bottom torque.

My recommondation would be to change axle ratio first.  It would give you a 
lot more puch for your dollars and later allow you to go to a performance cam
like 280H competition cams or crane cam.  A good all around axle for these cams
would be a 3.89 or 4.11, and if your not running this daily on the street
you could use 5.14's or 5.43's and step up to a 292 degree cam.  However
with the 3.00 if you don't intend to change axles in the future this is 
a good cam.

dennis  
 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 11 23:40:53 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4462


In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
|> I called Competition Cams for my cam as many of yall suggested.  The guy 
|> recommended a 35-216-3 cam.  I think that this is a 260H series.  From what
|> I have read this cam will have 212/212 Dur.@050 for the intake and exhaust.
|> Lift will be 447 for both intake and exhaust.  My question is why are both
|> the intake and exhaust lift and duration the same?  The other cams I have seen
|> have a longer and higher exhaust.  This is also the way Hotrod mag recommends
|> a cam in a motor build up.  Its going in a 351W, 9:1CR, 1 5/8 headers, 3.00:1
|> rear, 600Cfm, performer intake, and c-4 trans.  I will probably pick up the 
|> cam tomorrow if its what I should use.  Thanks.
|> Tom McClendon
|> gt7038d@prism.gatech.edu
|> 
|> ----------
|> Posted by: emory!prism.gatech.edu!gt7038d (MCCLENDON,WILLIAM THOMAS)


Alot of your decision will depend on whether this vehicle is a daily street
driver or mainly for fun.  The cam that has been recommended will give a near
no hassle well behaved streetable machine.

Just to give you a reference point I am running a 272/282, 214/224 @ .050 with
.448 intake &.465 exhaust lift. 112 deg separation (better low end). The engine
is a .030 over Pont 400 (Firebird TA), 9.0:1 comp, forged alum pistons. Stock
Pont 180 manifold (No EGR port) & Holley 650 vac Secondary carb. 1 5/8 headers 
w/ crossover. The tranny is a beefed TH350 (stock converter) connected to a 3.07
posi on Goodyear ST P235 60 R15's.  The car weighs 4100 lbs with a full tank of
gas, driver, AC, power windows etc.... (as you can see its not a race car)

This setup is a easy to drive, doesnt overheat (even w/ 100+ summers w/ Max AC)
and is reasonbly quick.  Track times of 14.45 @ 102.8mph (most recent) with poor
tire lockup (my fault, too much throttle too soon)  60' time = 2.75 (bleah!)
0-60mph is at 5.92 secs (tires spinning).  The engine pulls about 18" vacuum at
idle rpm of 750 and is only mildly "bumpy" when in gear at a stop lights.

I could improve my ETs very easily by swapping the high axle ratio for one much
lower and installing a higher stall torque converter.  This would have two  
effects : 1) improve launch  2) put engine at peak hp at the end of 1/4 mile
This alone would, IMO put the ETs into the 13's. The price would be that I could
not use it as a daily street machine and the increased heat due to higher rpms and
converter slippage would limit road trips (not to mention poor gas mileage and
increased engine wear).  

So, you should determine how you are going to use the car and select appropriate
components accordingly.  My TA may not be the fastest thing around but,  Its
a lot of fun to drive and I get to use it every day.

 

$0.02

Ericy

      *---------------------------------+---------------------------*
      | Eric Youngblood                                             |
      | Bell-Northern Research    _                                 |
      | Richardson, Texas 75082 _| ~-                               |
      |                         \,  _}                              |
      |                           \(    +---------------------------|
      |                                 |   Peon w/o Email privs    |
      *---------------------------------+---------------------------*

I will be replacing the tires soon though, for some that offer better grip 
 
 

----------
Posted by: (Eric Youngblood)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 03:30:15 1993
Subject: RE: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4463

-> To clarify the quest, I am considering the conversion of a FWD
-> automobile to RWD using an early Toronado FWD powertrain (sans final
-> drive) installed backwards in the engine compartment.  Since this
-> would result in the transmission output shaft rotating the "wrong"

 Sorry I didn't read all the earlier posts on this so maybe this was brought up
before. If you do this, aren't you going to have to do something about the
frame or lack there of? I'm not that familar with the Toro, but 3 years ago at
the Buick GS Nationals, Buick had a proto Reatta or Somersetwith the GN
powertrain. They had to do some heavyduty body reinforcing because the body now
acted the support role of the frame.

Ron

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 03:36:16 1993
Subject: RE: Vericom
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4464

> An RS232 equipt version is available that includes software to >capture data
in real time for later analysis. full IBM computer graphic >displays are a part
of the package.

That's the version that I tested. It was pretty nice to see torque and HP as a
function of distance/speed (no tach input at that time). You could really tell
where the engine quit making power.

Ron

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 03:41:02 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4465


mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu (Mark Walker) writes:
"I assume your comment about location and size of such a device is
"related to the torque multiplication of the transmission.

yes.

"                                                           My hope is
"to use the device between the transmission and differential.   I wasn't
"worried too much about the size of the device since Hone overdrives
"I've seen in the same arrangement were a reasonable size (i.e. Fit in
"the stock driveshaft tunnel), and some transfer cases for 4WDs are on
"the outside envelope of the amount of space I am willing to consume.

hone gets away with it because the o/d is only engaged in high gear;
the shafts are connected 'straight through' and only the o/d's clutch
has to take high torque.

the transfer case is a good idea i hadn't thought of.

"To clarify the quest, I am considering the conversion of a FWD
"automobile to RWD using an early Toronado FWD powertrain (sans final
"drive) installed backwards in the engine compartment.  Since this would
"result in the transmission output shaft rotating the "wrong" way, I
"need a reverser somewhere in the final components of the drivetrain.
"I've considered just using the differential upside down, but I want to
"keep the tunnel in the passenger compartment as low and small as
"possible and upside down would raise the pinion shaft several inches.
"(Towards this end I would use an IRS so the driveshaft would be in a
"fixed location.)

what about a dana/spicer 44 [from a vette or jag maybe]?  a variety of
'reverse rotation' gear sets are made for ford 4x4 applications.

"Any other potiential solutions would be welcome.
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 03:46:33 1993
Subject: Re: 500 cu. in. Cadillac
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4466


v127klmr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Steven E Nove) writes:
"                Also, what is the bore and stroke?  Are the rods, crank forged
"or cast?  What kind of RPM's can the rods handle?  How much does the motor
"weigh?

4.3*4.3; all cast; probably not much; about average for a big-block.
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 03:51:56 1993
Subject: Turbos on two wheels (was: RE: Ignition Curves)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4467

In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
 
[Point about computer control for turbo cars omitted}
 
> ... stuff.  Otherwise, to heck with it - on my Yamaha I disconnected the
> servo and wired the wastegate shut.  Whomped the boost up from 5psi to
> 15psi; it'll hold at 15psi for a few seconds, then start slowly climbing

Sounds like just the thing to reduce front tread wear.  ;^)

> again as it gradually overpowers the popoff valve in the airbox.  I
> really need to fix that too...
> 
>  Despite claims that I'd ride over my own crankshaft someday, I've been
> running the bike that way for eight years!  Blow-through, pressure
> balanced carbs too.

Not being familiar with the stock arrangement on this bike; I was
curious about this carb configuration.  Are you refering to a
modification to get to this configuration, or is there some other point
I'm missing.  On a related note, is there a concensus of which turbo'b
bikes are the best ones to "play" with.

> ----------
> Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)

Mark Walker	mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:04:52 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4468

Millam Tackitt asks about getting really thick cylinder sleeves.

I don't know where to get thick ones but I do know a machinist who
double-sleeved a block of his.  Of course, his labor was free.
He did the usual installation on the first (largest) sleeve,
bored it, installed the second sleeve, and bored it.  Very expensive
if you have to pay for labor but it got him what he wanted.

His engine was a special halfbreed.  He used a 4 cylinder Chevy
block and a Ford head.  To make this work he added an extension
to the deck by welding pieces of iron onto the block to build
the deck out sideways.  Then he decked the whole thing.  The
engine ran really well until one day when he tried to race without
having the oil warmed up.  One of the pistons went through the side
of one of the cylinders.  Looked pretty ugly afterwards.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:18:03 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4469

In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> -> To clarify the quest, I am considering the conversion of a FWD
> -> automobile to RWD using an early Toronado FWD powertrain (sans final
> -> drive) installed backwards in the engine compartment.  Since this
> -> would result in the transmission output shaft rotating the "wrong"
> 
>  Okay, you want to turn the Toro rig around to point to the back, remove
> the differential, and put in some sort of coupler to run a driveshaft
> back to a coventional rear drive suspension.  I presume this is in an
> effort not to have to modify the floor pan to clear a conventional
> transmission.

That's correct.  There just isn't room for a transmission hump, the
left wheel well and the feet at the bottom end of my 6'4" frame.  (The
top end cramps my style when it comes to chopping one of these
projects too!  It's a real pain being a tall hotrodder.)

> It could be done by flipping the rear as you suggested, but... the Toro 
> is a BIG package.  Will it fit the proposed body without cutting?  If 
> you have to cut, you might as well lay up a trans tunnel from 
> fiberglass.

I believe it will. I planned to use a V6 rather than the large V8 as
the powerplant, and some non-stock water pump arrangement to gain some
room.  I am going to have to run the gauntlet with the county pollution
folks to find a combination they will accept though.  (The car is my
tired daily driver, a '78 SAAB which has been reliable enough to
deserve a little hotrodding ;^) ; I'm just sick of the FWD.)

> With the reversed Toro, chances are you'd STILL have to cut the floor
> pan to clear the shaft, which will be offset to the driver's side and
> still probably higher than the floor pan.

Yes, I'm sure I'll need a tunnel about twice the size of the existing
one, but with an IRS it will only have to be a couple of inches
larger in diameter than the driveshaft since I won't have to allow for
vertical motion.  I had hoped to reduce the offset towards the driver with
the shaft reverser in question.  If it were similar to a small transfer
case, I could place the driveshaft at, or near, the center of the car.

Unfortunately, there is one remaining difficulty; the rack and pinion
steering runs along the bottom of the firewall, and will very probably
be in the intended path of the driveshaft.  So, I may have what used to
be the ultimate difficulty in a swap; changing the steering.  Wonder if
this or the pollution regulations will be tougher to deal with.  Don't
get me wrong, I want the result to be a clean car, just don't know how
much trouble the county will give me.

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:24:22 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4470

>I called Competition Cams for my cam as many of yall suggested.  The guy 
>recommended a 35-216-3 cam.  I think that this is a 260H series.  From what
>I have read this cam will have 212/212 Dur.@050 for the intake and exhaust.
>Lift will be 447 for both intake and exhaust.  My question is why are both
>the intake and exhaust lift and duration the same?  The other cams I have seen
>have a longer and higher exhaust.  This is also the way Hotrod mag recommends
>a cam in a motor build up.  Its going in a 351W, 9:1CR, 1 5/8 headers, 3.00:1
>rear, 600Cfm, performer intake, and c-4 trans.  I will probably pick up the 
>cam tomorrow if its what I should use.  Thanks.
>Tom McClendon
>
With headers, you don't need to favor the exhaust as much as you do with
manifolds.  The other application I've seen that favoring the exhaust event
makes sense is with nitrous, since the nitrous effectively only helps the
intake event.

David Wright

----------
Posted by: David Wright 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:28:31 1993
Subject: Re: Teflon was Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4471

A couple of readers have posted about SB Chevy head bolts and
whether or not they extend into the water jacket.

On the old blocks (pre-76) they definitely do extend into the
water jacket.  However, after an engine has some age on it
the area around the bottom of the bolt gets some rust buildup
around it which might make you think that you are looking into
a blind hole.  If you want to check this just take a piece of
small rod (about 1/4 inch), put it in the hole, and tap it with
a hammer.  The rust buildup will fall off and you will be able to
see all the way to the bottom of the water jacket.

I'll bet that all the Chevy small blocks are constructed with
the bolts extending into the water jacket.  Why else would the
factory head bolts come with sealer already installed on the
threads?

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:34:01 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4472

Mike Jamison wrote:
"I hear checking for NOx is very difficult and expensive.  In Cleveland, OH,
CO, HC and (believe it or not) CO2 are checked - the CO2 is just for a 
reference."

And John followed up:
"[The CO2 check is to catch people who simply dillute the exhaust gas
with, for example, lots of air injection.  That spoiled one of my
favorite tricks :-(  JGD]"

The obvious answer then is to dilute with CO2.  One of those
welding-size bottles holds a lot of liquid which turns into
even more gas.  Add a regulator, solenoid valve, and some minor
plumbing into the head pipes and you should be all set.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:39:03 1993
Subject: Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4473

Jon Lusky writes:

>> 
>> Jon writes:
>> ... I've also used teflon tape for manifold water fittings, but in general
>> teflon + aluminum is a bad idea. ...

>Primarily because the teflon is much harder than the aluminum and damages
>the aluminum threads, but I think it may also lead to corrosion problems.

My understanding is that teflon tape simply makes it too easy to overtighten
the fitting, which will strip aluminum threads a lot more easily than threads
in steel.  What _I_ always have trouble with is the fuel inlet fitting on
my (Rochester 2GV) carb--a one-inch-hex threads into _pot_metal_, for Pete's
sake!  If you even hiccup while tightening it, there go your threads...

--Mark Looper
"Hot Rodders--America's first recyclers!"

----------
Posted by: emory!cco.caltech.edu!looper (Mark D. Looper)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:44:03 1993
Subject: Pressure Gauge
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4474


Does anyone know of a reasonably priced fuel pressure gauge.  I need
to measure up to about 25 psig.  It can be electronic or isolated mechanical
(I don't want gas lines inside the car).

I purchased a Cyberdyne digital oil pressure gauge but it is nonlinear
at the low pressures.  If anyone wants it $20 + shipping for the guage
and sending unit.  The gauge was never put in a car, just on my work
bench.

Rob
gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil
-------

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!gallant (Robert Gallant)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:50:00 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4475

In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 

[...]

> Lift is a product of duration and ramp speed or how fast a lifter is being

I believe this is incorrect.  Duration and ramp speed have nothing to
do with lift.  I understand lift to be just the distance the valve will
be moved by the cam.  I agree that the position of the valve at any
given point in time is determined by the shape of the cam lobe "ramps",
but lift is independent of the acceleration of the valve as it opens and
closes.  

> pushed up and for how long.  The ramp speed varies by vender of cam and
> what type of lifter they designed the cam to run with.  High end performance

Here I agree, the shape of the lobe is very important and has much to
do with the flow.  Two cams with identical lift and duration can be
noticeably different in valve motion and performance.  One of the cam
manufactures runs an ad with a graph that illustrates this point (well,
at least the differing motion part).  You can also note from this ad
that duration is typically measured at .050 inches of lift.  This is a
fairly standard practice now that helps buyers.

In the "olden" days (and probably still today in a few cases) the
duration numbers the vendors published were pretty much useless.  Why
is that?  If one vendor measured duration at .050, and another measured
at .005, which cam would look better to an uninformed buyer?  The two
cams certainly couldn't be compared on the basis of the duration
numbers, leaving only lift, which isn't much to go on.  Unfortunately,
even good duration numbers don't help much because there are so many
variables in the dynamics of vehicle operation.

For example, the springs and weight of the valves play an important part in
how the ramps of the cam lobes are shaped.  i.e. There can be significant
differences between cams designed for the same type of lifter.

> is increased by having both a high duration and high lift.  Basicly allows
> more fuel air mixture in the chamber per revolution.  However this also
> causes a negative effect at bottom end and therefore the lower the duration
> the better things run on the bottom.  Other factors like compression ratio
> and overlap effect bottom end but lets keep this simple.

[...]

> dennis  
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
-- 
Mark Walker	mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 04:55:12 1993
Subject: Crane tech line.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4476


	Does anyone know the number for Crane Cams tech line?  The one they list in
their catalog never (I mean never) answers.  Thanks.

----------
Posted by: emory!IASTATE.EDU!munson1
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 15:37:29 1993
Subject: RE: Vericom
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4477


What's the price on these things. $100, $500.


>> An RS232 equipt version is available that includes software to >capture data
>in real time for later analysis. full IBM computer graphic >displays are a part
>of the package.
>
>That's the version that I tested. It was pretty nice to see torque and HP as a
>function of distance/speed (no tach input at that time). You could really tell
>where the engine quit making power.
>
>Ron
>
>----------
>Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
> 
>
>
-------

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!gallant (Robert Gallant)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 15:42:24 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4478


btree!hale@ucsd.edu (Bob Hale) writes:
"Millam Tackitt asks about getting really thick cylinder sleeves.

actually, it was me.

"I don't know where to get thick ones but I do know a machinist who
"double-sleeved a block of his.  Of course, his labor was free.
"He did the usual installation on the first (largest) sleeve,
"bored it, installed the second sleeve, and bored it.  Very expensive
"if you have to pay for labor but it got him what he wanted.

i had thought of that, but i don't know if it would give me the
strength of a thicker single sleeve.

"His engine was a special halfbreed.  He used a 4 cylinder Chevy
"block and a Ford head.  To make this work he added an extension
"to the deck by welding pieces of iron onto the block to build
"the deck out sideways.  Then he decked the whole thing.  The
"engine ran really well until one day when he tried to race without
"having the oil warmed up.  One of the pistons went through the side
"of one of the cylinders.  Looked pretty ugly afterwards.

i wonder why he didn't use a chevy head...

-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 15:55:11 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4479


Peon w/o Email (Eric Youngblood) writes:
"Just to give you a reference point I am running a 272/282, 214/224 @ .050 with
".448 intake &.465 exhaust lift. 112 deg separation (better low end). The engine
"is a .030 over Pont 400 (Firebird TA), 9.0:1 comp, forged alum pistons. Stock
"Pont 180 manifold (No EGR port) & Holley 650 vac Secondary carb. 1 5/8 headers 
"w/ crossover. The tranny is a beefed TH350 (stock converter) connected to a 3.07
"posi on Goodyear ST P235 60 R15's.  The car weighs 4100 lbs with a full tank of
"gas, driver, AC, power windows etc.... (as you can see its not a race car)
[]
"I could improve my ETs very easily by swapping the high axle ratio for one much
"lower and installing a higher stall torque converter.  This would have two  
"effects : 1) improve launch  2) put engine at peak hp at the end of 1/4 mile
"This alone would, IMO put the ETs into the 13's. The price would be that I could
"not use it as a daily street machine and the increased heat due to higher rpms and
"converter slippage would limit road trips (not to mention poor gas mileage and
"increased engine wear).  

but, if you swapped the th350 for a built 700r4, you could step down
to 4.11s and the o/d would put your cruise rpms right back to where
they are now.  i believe you can even get performance lockup
converters now...
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 16:06:25 1993
Subject: RE: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4480

In article <=tkt=ch@dixie.com>, hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> -> To clarify the quest, I am considering the conversion of a FWD
> -> automobile to RWD using an early Toronado FWD powertrain (sans final
> -> drive) installed backwards in the engine compartment.  Since this
> -> would result in the transmission output shaft rotating the "wrong"
> 

>  Sorry I didn't read all the earlier posts on this so maybe this was
> brought up before. If you do this, aren't you going to have to do
> something about the frame or lack there of? I'm not that familar with

No problem Ron, we hadn't broached this issue yet.

> the Toro, but 3 years ago at the Buick GS Nationals, Buick had a proto
> Reatta or Somersetwith the GN powertrain. They had to do some heavyduty
> body reinforcing because the body now acted the support role of the
> frame.

I only see this as a problem in the rear (for the IRS) as the FWD setup
in the target SAAB (yes, I know it's wierd) has a pretty sturdy
arrangement for engine and front suspension mounting.  I do plan for an
adapter frame that would crossbrace and generally reinforce the engine
compartment though while I'm in there changing things "just to be sure".
Kind of like "chicken" rivets on bonded aircraft components I suppose.  ;^)

For the rear, I've considered something like one of the Jag setups that
Concours West has been pushing lately, since the cage would be a straight
forward mount in the unitbody, although I still tend to lean towards
Corvette IRS from some (probably misplaced) GM loyalty.  Maybe Concours
will get another shipment of used IRSs by the time I'm ready to go, and the
inboard disks and coil over shocks will just be too hard to passup.
Of course, there is that emergency brake problem (if I don't keep the
front spindles when I move the steering mechanism) that a 'vette IRS would
cure.

Decisions, Decisions...

> Ron
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 

-- 
 "There's no such thing as fast enough!"  | Mark Walker
     (Or something to that effect...)     | mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu
                James Taylor              | 505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)
                _Two_Lane_Blacktop_       | Albuquerque, NM

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 16:12:05 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4481

In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu (Mark Walker) writes:
> "I assume your comment about location and size of such a device is
> "related to the torque multiplication of the transmission.
> 
> yes.
>
> ... hone gets away with it because the o/d is only engaged in high gear;
> the shafts are connected 'straight through' and only the o/d's clutch
> has to take high torque.

Ok, that makes sense.  I hadn't dug out (well, probably don't still
have) the article that showed the inards of a Hone overdrive.

> the transfer case is a good idea i hadn't thought of.  
> 

> "To clarify the quest, I am considering the conversion of a FWD 
> "automobile to RWD using an early Toronado FWD powertrain (sans final 
> "drive) installed backwards in the engine compartment.  Since this would 
> "result in the transmission output shaft rotating the "wrong" way, I 
> "need a reverser somewhere in the final components of the drivetrain.  
> "I've considered just using the differential upside down, but I want to 
> "keep the tunnel in the passenger compartment as low and small as 
> "possible and upside down would raise the pinion shaft several inches.  
> "(Towards this end I would use an IRS so the driveshaft would be in a 
> "fixed location.) 
> 
> what about a dana/spicer 44 [from a vette or jag maybe]?  a variety of 
> 'reverse rotation' gear sets are made for ford 4x4 applications.

I had wondered about this possiblility, but had nearly convinced myself
(from looking at Chilton's, and the like) that there wasn't a stock
front axle that would work since the ring gear seems to always be on the
right (as viewed from the driveshaft) of the pinion.  Do you have
pointers as to where I should look, or who I should contact about these
4x4 applications?  And, what 4x4 applications need reverse rotation?

> "Any other potiential solutions would be welcome.
...
> Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)

-- 
Mark Walker	mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 16:17:22 1993
Subject: Re: Crane tech line.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4482

In article <7xktsyr@dixie.com>, hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> 	Does anyone know the number for Crane Cams tech line?  The one they
> list in their catalog never (I mean never) answers.  Thanks.

The ad in the current Popular Hot Rodding says: 904/258-6174 M-F 8-8
Eastern.  If that doesn't work or is the same number, I would call
904/555-1212 and ask for the (Daytona Beach) number for Crane Cams,
call it, and give the main office hell!  You could also call
800/555-1212 and see if Crane has a toll free number.

Say, does Crane still handle turbos?  (Boy, I'm probably dating myself with
that one.)

> 
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!IASTATE.EDU!munson1

-- 
 "There's no such thing as fast enough!"  | Mark Walker
     (Or something to that effect...)     | mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu
                James Taylor              | 505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)
                _Two_Lane_Blacktop_       | Albuquerque, NM

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 16:25:28 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4483

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>I called Competition Cams for my cam as many of yall suggested.  The guy 
>recommended a 35-216-3 cam.  I think that this is a 260H series.  From what
>I have read this cam will have 212/212 Dur.@050 for the intake and exhaust.
>Lift will be 447 for both intake and exhaust.  My question is why are both
>the intake and exhaust lift and duration the same?  The other cams I have seen
>have a longer and higher exhaust.  This is also the way Hotrod mag recommends
>a cam in a motor build up.  Its going in a 351W, 9:1CR, 1 5/8 headers, 3.00:1
>rear, 600Cfm, performer intake, and c-4 trans.  I will probably pick up the 
>cam tomorrow if its what I should use.  Thanks.


I will recommend 268H cam and a mild converter.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------
    /   /  /     /~~~    
   /   /  /     /~~    
  /___/  /___  /        ( = wolf )

----------
Posted by: emory!eua.ericsson.se!Ulf.Rosberg (Ulf Rosberg)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 12 16:28:58 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4484

> Alot of your decision will depend on whether this vehicle is a daily street
> driver or mainly for fun.  The cam that has been recommended will give a near
> no hassle well behaved streetable machine.
> 
> Just to give you a reference point I am running a 272/282, 214/224 @ .050 with
> .448 intake &.465 exhaust lift. 112 deg separation (better low end). 
> The engine
> is a .030 over Pont 400 (Firebird TA), 9.0:1 comp, forged alum pistons. Stock
> Pont 180 manifold (No EGR port) & Holley 650 vac Secondary carb. 
> 1 5/8 headers 

This could be a little misleading here.  Due to Fords head design they 
have a tendency to work better as torque engines rather than the GM
engines which produce best power at high RPM's.  Also the difference
in cubic inches allows the use of wilder cams on bigger engines.  An
example is that Copetetion cams that a 252 degree cam on a 265 Cu inch
engine is a little wilder than a 268 degree cam on a 400 cubic inch
engine.  With the bigger cubic inches you can use more fuel on the bottom end.

> w/ crossover. The tranny is a beefed TH350 (stock converter) 
> connected to a 3.07
> posi on Goodyear ST P235 60 R15's.  The car weighs 4100 lbs with 
> a full tank of
> gas, driver, AC, power windows etc.... (as you can see its not a race car)
> 
> This setup is a easy to drive, doesnt overheat (even w/ 100+ summers 
> w/ Max AC)
> and is reasonbly quick.  Track times of 14.45 @ 102.8mph (most recent) 
> with poor
> tire lockup (my fault, too much throttle too soon)  60' time = 2.75 (bleah!)
> 0-60mph is at 5.92 secs (tires spinning).  The engine pulls about 18" 
> vacuum at
> idle rpm of 750 and is only mildly "bumpy" when in gear at a stop lights.
> 
> I could improve my ETs very easily by swapping the high axle 
> ratio for one much
> lower and installing a higher stall torque converter.

Actually either would work better than both with this mild cam on a
GM engine.  Suggest you try 4.33's for combined street and strip or
if you really want to get serios on on the strip 5.13 since you should
be able to good but not extreme RPM's.

>  This would have two  
> effects : 1) improve launch  2) put engine at peak hp at the end of 1/4 mile
> This alone would, IMO put the ETs into the 13's. The price would 
> be that I could
> not use it as a daily street machine and the increased heat due to 
> higher rpms and
> converter slippage would limit road trips (not to mention poor gas mileage and
> increased engine wear).

For the street a simple change to 4.33's would not be as bad as you claimed.
I've already cruised across country with 4.56's on a small block chevy with
no heating problems.  The only draw back is that you will see about a 50%
increasde in gas consumption changing from 3.07 to 4.33's.

  
dennis

----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 07:56:49 1993
Subject: Re:  Teflon was Re: Chevy head bolt sealer
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4486


-> I'm pretty puzzled by all of this controversy. I have one SB Chevy
-> engine ('77 350 4BBL in a van) and I've had the heads off a couple of
-> times. I just dog them right down, no goop or tape on the bolts,
-> never had a water leak. The head bolts don't pass through the water
-> jacket as far as I can see.

 Except for the Bow Tie stuff which is supposed to be blind tapped, all
Chevy head bolts go through into the water jacket.  It's cheaper and
faster to tap a through hole than a blind hole.

 You've either been very, very lucky, or you left enough of the original
gunk in the threads to reseal.
                                                                    

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:01:30 1993
Subject: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4487


-> I have read this cam will have 212/212 Dur.@050 for the intake and
-> exhaust. Lift will be 447 for both intake and exhaust.  My question
-> is why are both the intake and exhaust lift and duration the same?
-> The other cams I have seen have a longer and higher exhaust.

 That's pretty well the norm for cams.  Symmetrical lobes of the same
pattern on both intake and exhaust.  When asymmetrical lobes or a split
pattern are used, it's usually for an engine that's restricted in some
way.  A 212/212 cam would be an old-style RV cam on a 109 or 110 lobe
center, and a "computer cam" on a 112-114 lobe center.

 Long exhaust durations are often used for "computer cams" or very mild
cams for cars with stock, smog-type exhaust systems.  They're more in
the way of a crutch to offset small overlap or bad exhaust breathing
than any real performance thingie.


-> This is also the way Hotrod mag recommends a cam in a motor build up.

 Don't put unlimited faith in Hot Rod.  They have a habit of making
Pronouncements without giving enough background information.


-> Its going in a 351W, 9:1CR, 1 5/8 headers, 3.00:1 rear, 600Cfm,
-> performer intake, and c-4 trans.

 What's the engine going into?  Any smog equipment?  If emissions aren't
an overriding concern, a 212/212 is a pretty small cam.  It probably
won't lope at all in the 351.  For mild performance use, you should
really be looking for something more on the order of 220 to 225 degrees
on a 109 or 110 lobe center, which should give you a very mild lopey
idle and a power curve peaking around 4500 or so, which would match your
carburetor and manifold.
                                                                                                                      

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:06:37 1993
Subject: Re: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4488


-> >  Hmm... the Corvette is on the knock sensor at WFO, with advance >
-> determined *only* by the knock sensor.  We've verified that by
-> running > different grades of gas and octane booster through.

> Hmm, if the 91 TBI ECM does this, then GM didn't mention it anywhere
> in the documentation they provided me.  ANd I just reread it to make
> sure.

 I dunno if it actually says it in the docs or not, but that's how it
works.  We found out by using the data store/dump and graphing mode on
the diagnostic thingamajiggie.  Jay's car is a '90, speed-density, and
the 1991 is supposed to be identical.  Well, they changed the mufflers,
but the engine is identical.


->   I can think of two possibilites that might cause it to
-> stay on the map when it shouldn't, if such a mode exist for this
-> ECM/programming. 1) We don't have a TPS at the moment.  According to
-> our docs, its only used for fuel, IAC, and lockup, none of which we
-> are using at the moment.

 I don't see how the Throttle Position Switch would affect being on the
map, except you could no longer have the "floor clear" mode available.
When starter=true and TPS=WFO, the ECU turns the injectors off to let
the engine clear if it has flooded.


-> I had assumed that as well.  What exactly do you mean by prom
-> carrier? All of my ECMs take standard proms (TBI ECM takes a 2732,

 The one in Jay's is potted into a rinky-dink little plastic carrier.
I had assumed they all were.  If so, it'd be a lot easier to use some
blank carriers rather than stealing some from the junkyard and picking
out potting compound before soldering in a ZIF socket.
                                                                                                    

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:13:05 1993
Subject: Turbos on two wheels (was: RE: Ignition Curves)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4489


-> > 15psi; it'll hold at 15psi for a few seconds, then start slowly
-> climbing

> Sounds like just the thing to reduce front tread wear.  ;^)

 Just put a new rear tire on last week.  The last one made it ~4000
miles.  :-(


-> Not being familiar with the stock arrangement on this bike; I was
-> curious about this carb configuration.  Are you refering to a
-> modification to get to this configuration, or is there some other
-> point I'm missing.

 The Seca Turbo used a header coming back to a turbo mounted under and
behind the engine, near the swingarm.  Pressurized air comes up a duct
to a cast aluminum airbox or plenum which is attached to the inlet side
of the carbs, which mount conventionally behind the head.  The carbs
have drillings from the throttle shaft bores to the inlet side of the
carb; that ensures the shafts are always under pressure in relation to
the butterflies; this prevents fuel from oozing from around the shafts
when under boost.

 This is conventionally called a "blow through" system, and gives better
throttle response than a suck-through (carb ahead of turbo) arrangement.
On the downside, you have to have a pressure-compensated fuel pressure
regulator and a fuel pump strong enough to overcome boost pressure.

 As far as I know, Porsche was the first to use a spring loaded flapper
door to let the engine suck normal air when the turbo was below its
pressure curve; when pressure came up, the door closed and the engine
got boost.  This gave more power and crisper throttle response at low
RPM, and even better mileage, though the 930 wasn't exactly a miser.
Yamaha dispensed with the door and used reed valves, which appear to be
plain old RD350 crankcase reeds, between the airbox and the air filter
housing, which mounts right behind the airbox.  Below 3000 RPM, the
engine sucks outside air through the filter; when the turbo comes in,
the reeds blow closed.

 The disadvantage to this is that right around 58mph or so there's a
cyclic surging as the system seesaws back and forth between modes, but
what the heck.
                 

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:19:49 1993
Subject: Re: Stroking my 351W to better propel my Cougar. :)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4490


-> His engine was a special halfbreed.  He used a 4 cylinder Chevy block
-> and a Ford head.

 Back in the mid-'70s HR ran an article on a guy who'd sawed two BOSS
302 heads up, furnace-brazed them back together, and put them on a Chevy
6-cylinder block for one of the straight-six dirt classes.  They also
ran an article on another guy who did basically the same with a pair of
the early angle plug Chevy SB heads.

 One of my favorites, though, was Warren Booth, who sawed up two AMC
heads, one about 1-1/2 inches from the deck, the other about 2 inches
from the deck, then welded them back up.  This gave him 1/2 inch taller
intake and exhaust ports before he even got the grinder out.

 Back ten or fifteen years ago, Brownfield and AFR made about the only
aftermarket heads, and those only for small block Chevys.  Now every guy
and his dog is casting up heads for damned near anything.  Back inna old
days you hadda do a little more work to go fast.  
                                                                                       

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:25:18 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4491


-> I believe it will. I planned to use a V6 rather than the large V8 as
-> the powerplant, and some non-stock water pump arrangement to gain
...
-> tired daily driver, a '78 SAAB which has been reliable enough to
-> deserve a little hotrodding ;^) ; I'm just sick of the FWD.)

 Look; the Hydramatic itself will probably be as big as a Buick V6,
which is the only thing that'll bolt up straight.  You could use one of
the corporate trans adapters to put a Chevy V6 in, but that'd be a step
backwards.  The 60 degree V6 has a weirdo bolt pattern; it won't go at
all.

 I was just talking to a guy with a Porsche 924 the other day.  He wants
to swap in a different motor.  The Porsche puts the engine up front and
the transmission in back; he wasn't sure where the clutch was.  The
first Pontiac Tempests did the same thing only using modified Corvair
parts.

 How about you mount the engine of your choice up front, conventional
longitudinal (north/south) configuration.  Considering it's a SAAB,
there'd be a certain amount of fun using either the later SAAB APC Turbo
or the Ford Ranger V6; the Ranger is a cousin to the SAAB V4.  Whatever.
Now decide where you want to put the clutch.  For simplicity, let's say
you put it with the engine.  Now all you need is a carrier bearing and
splined shaft to take the power from the clutch disk, and a yoke for the
driveshaft.  That would take a little machining but it's all
straightforward.  At the back, use a Subaru, Audi, or Porsche 914
transaxle.  The Subaru would probably be smallest and least expensive.
All three already rotate the correct direction.  You'd need another
adapter (hint: the Subaru clutch disc hub has the correct splines
already), carrier, and yoke for the rear of the driveshaft.
                                                                                         

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:31:58 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4492



Having read some of the good information posted about oxygen sensors,
I decided to build my own stochiometer, using some of the discussed
techniques.

I have perhaps the simplest implementation, one that can be made
entirly with hand tools.

I want to measure the A/F ratio of my Olds, my Ford, and perhaps my
Honda Hawk GT without taking anything apart, and without buying
multiple sensors.  None of these vehicals have provisions for an oxygen
sensor.  Obviously, I needed an easy way to move the sensor around.
Thus I chose the in-the-tailpipe method.  I went to the muffler pipe
store, and bought some slip-on pipe that seals tightly with my current
pipes.  I could have made the seal easy to tighten via a hackswan slot,
but so far I have not needed to.  How to get the sensor in, out, and
commutable?  As the pipes are mild steel, I put each in a vise and
applied TheRightWhack(TM) with a ball pein hammer -- voila a flat
spot.  A small hole in the center of the flat spot, and a few bites
with my hand nibbler, and I had a suitable socket hole.

For the socket, rather than take the weld/braze-on approach suggested 
by a few folks, I made the socket bolt-on.  By using two HELP! 40006?
tapered spark plug exenders, one with all but 1/4" of the threads 
cut off, and one cut at the bottom of the hex section you get a 
shouldered socket and matching nut.  Slip the socket through the pipe,
thread on the nut, and tighten with pliers.  For the paranoid, 
various sealants could be used to hold the nut and seal the hole.

The sensor was the cheapest three wire sensor I could get.  Ended up
being for a new Jeep.  ( Sure wish I could find those generic three
wire sensors. ) 

It is my intention to use the sensor while driving or in the driveway.
Thus my power supply is via a cigarette lighter jack.  I used zipcord
and the Radio Shack fuse-in-jack gizmo to run power to a small Radio
Shack project box.  Power runs pass-through to the heater.  I wanted
seperate heater and signal grounds, but was unable to find any cheap,
suitable 4 conductor wire ( although, in hind site, regular phone wire
would probably work well )  so I ended up using 5 conductor thermostat
wire from Home Depot.  As there is no signal ground apparent at the
sensor end, I ran it down to a sheet metal screw, located very near the
sensor, in the pipe.  Two screw-down posts ( more Radio Shack parts )
are in the top of the project box providing the signal from the
sensor.

The last remaining part is the meter used to read the sensor.  I tested
the analog meter I had at home with a new digital one at work and found
its current draw too much for the sensor.  I had been meaning to get
one of those new meters anyway...  I settled on the Fluke 79 because it
is the cheapest Fluke that does signal averaging, and can display the
unaveraged and averaged value at the same time.  If the sensor output
is changing with a drifting periodic signal ( like when turning the
idle mixture adjustment screw on the carburator in this arrangement )
the trend and instant reading can be seen at once.  The '79 has a 40 hz
sampling rate, and a 4 hertz by 2 second window averaging circuit.
There are cheaper meters out there that do nearly the same thing; I am
not sure why I went for the Fluke.



Thus to check an A/F ratio, I pick up the sensor, socket and nut, 
select a suitable slip-on pipe, assemble the mess, and plug the power
feed into the cigarette jack.  Slip the meter probes into the posts, 
screw them down, and read the meter.  The meter can be on the fender
for under-hood tweaking, or on the seat ( next to the box of jets,
springs and rods ) for checking out cruise and WOT.  


The only thing left is tuning the Hawk.  I'm thinking of getting that
stainless steel Supertrapp system.  Anybody out there know of a cheap
source for weld-on type stainless oxygen sensor sockets?  I'd hate to 
just cut a hole in a new $300 stainless muffler.  Perhaps I can modify a
Supertrapp end cap ( or make something similar ) to hold the sensor.
Any ideas?
	 Frank Evan Perdicaro 				Xyvision Color Systems
      Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today.		101 Edgewater Drive
   inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572				Wakefield MA
outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572		018801285

----------
Posted by: emory!marvin.contex.com!frank (Frank Perdicaro)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:37:45 1993
Subject: PAMONA SWAP MEET SUNDAY 14th MARCH
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4493

It is Pamona Swap Meet time again all day Sunday for SOCAL readers and the Arizona crowd.


-- 
Mike

===========================================================================
Michael G. Brattland (brattlan@cyber.net) | 1923 Ford Roadster
600 Coldstream Drive                      |  (Ford 302, Tri-Power,
El Cajon, CA 92020-7721                   |  4 spd, 9 inch)
619 444-1944 (H)                          | 1971 Porsche 911T
619 553-7814 (W)                          |  (Carbs & 5 spd, Orig Owner)
                                          | 1988 Ford F150 4x4
    "3 Deuces and a 4 speed!"             |  (302, 5 spd)
                                          | Ex-Jeepster Commando Owner
For Tech Info on Ford Small and Big Block Tri-Powers, e-mail me!
===========================================================================

----------
Posted by: "Michael G. Brattland" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:45:48 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4494

Text not included by this mailer!

Sombody mentioned using a built 700R4 and 4.11 gears to get the same effect 
as TH350.  You could go one step further, and get an electric overdrive
unit for the 700R4 ( giving you 4 speeds forward and 2 in reverse ) and drop
even further, like into the 5.xx range.  Too bad a built T700R4 with EOD
is about $2500 -- I'd have one already installed.

	 Frank Evan Perdicaro 				Xyvision Color Systems
      Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today.		101 Edgewater Drive
   inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572				Wakefield MA
outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572		018801285

----------
Posted by: emory!uunet.UU.NET!contex!marvin.contex.com!frank (Frank Perdicaro)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 08:49:34 1993
Subject: Re: Crane tech line.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4495

 	The number (904) 258-6174 is the one that is apparently dead.  I'll try the
others.  I've called the main office, but they didn't think it was down... 
Hmmmm, sounds like crossed wires.  Thanks for the input.

----------
Posted by: emory!iastate.edu!munson1
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 13:53:13 1993
Subject: Re: Crane tech line.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4496


-> Say, does Crane still handle turbos?  (Boy, I'm probably dating
-> myself with that one.)

 Turbos?  Heck, remember when Crane used to sell double overhead cam
cylinder heads for the small block Chevy?  I think they're the ones that
sold later under the Moser name.
                                             

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 13 13:58:22 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4497

> 
> In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> > 
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Lift is a product of duration and ramp speed or how fast a lifter is being
> 
> I believe this is incorrect.  Duration and ramp speed have nothing to
> do with lift.  I understand lift to be just the distance the valve will
> be moved by the cam.  I agree that the position of the valve at any
> given point in time is determined by the shape of the cam lobe "ramps",
> but lift is independent of the acceleration of the valve as it opens and
> closes.

Well we are both partially correct.  The type of lifter and springs that a cam 
is designed to work with determines the maximum ramp speed or how fast a 
valve will open.  If the ramp is to fast and /or the springs are too weak
and/or the rpm's are to high the lifter will actually bounce at the top
of the cam lobe causing valve bounce.  On shorter duration cams designed to
work with stock springs this limits the amout of lift since the cam is always 
on a ramp when opening the valve.  On long duration cams designed to work with
with stiff springs the lift is more limited by the head design since the
valve can only open so far.  
> 
> > pushed up and for how long.  The ramp speed varies by vender of cam and
> > what type of lifter they designed the cam to run with.  High end performance
> 
> Here I agree, the shape of the lobe is very important and has much to
> do with the flow.  Two cams with identical lift and duration can be
> noticeably different in valve motion and performance.  One of the cam
> manufactures runs an ad with a graph that illustrates this point (well,
> at least the differing motion part).  You can also note from this ad
> that duration is typically measured at .050 inches of lift.  This is a
> fairly standard practice now that helps buyers.

In the early 60's they sold what was called cheater cams.  What they were were
cams with stock duration measured at .05 lift and stock total lift.  However
they produced a lot more flow by having super ramp speeds and really
boosted power up to about 5 or 6 grand when they started bouncing if
stock springs were used.  There fore I agree duration and lift are not
the only numbers that determin how a cam will perform even if a set
standard is used to report these numbers.
> 
> In the "olden" days (and probably still today in a few cases) the
> duration numbers the vendors published were pretty much useless.  Why
> is that?  If one vendor measured duration at .050, and another measured
> at .005, which cam would look better to an uninformed buyer?  The two
> cams certainly couldn't be compared on the basis of the duration
> numbers, leaving only lift, which isn't much to go on.  Unfortunately,
> even good duration numbers don't help much because there are so many
> variables in the dynamics of vehicle operation.
> 
> For example, the springs and weight of the valves play an important part in
> how the ramps of the cam lobes are shaped.  i.e. There can be significant
> differences between cams designed for the same type of lifter.
> 
> > is increased by having both a high duration and high lift.  Basicly allows
> > more fuel air mixture in the chamber per revolution.  However this also
> > causes a negative effect at bottom end and therefore the lower the duration
> > the better things run on the bottom.  Other factors like compression ratio
> > and overlap effect bottom end but lets keep this simple.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > dennis  
> > ----------
> > Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
> -- 
> Mark Walker	mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)

dennis

>  
> 
> 
> 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 14 02:47:48 1993
Subject: gapless rings
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4499



 I have here a set of Total Seal gapless rings for a friend's 2000 Ford.
There were a few interesting things about them -

   first, they're pretty much a standard set of rings with the second
   ring machined to accept a spring steel extra ring that looks pretty
   much like a piece of an oil ring set.

   second, the box comes with a Total Seal sticker, kinda nice,
   considering you just dropped $58 for a four cylinder ring set.

   third, the box also comes with a piece of hard candy, co-extruded
   in red, white, and blue, bearing the Total Seal logo.  AB swiped
   the candy, so I can't report what it tastes like.

   fourth, the instructions tell you to oil the cylinder walls only
   *very* lightly.  They don't want you to oil the rings at all,
   and claim if you do they'll never seat.  I always tend to slather
   oil all over the rings in a fresh bore job, usually Mobil 1
   synthetic, which is my usual assembly lube, or sometimes Yamalube R
   two stroke oil, which is intended to burn away without leaving
   gunk all over the place.

 You don't hear much about gapless rings in the US, but they're a big
deal over in Europe, where rodders are scrounging a bit harder for
horsepower.
                         

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Sun Mar 14 03:48:15 1993
Subject: engines
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4498



What are the weights of the big block engines?  
In what state of completeness?

Ford 427
Ford 428
Ford 429

GM Mk V

others


What are power to weight ratios?

Are there particularly good choices for high power, streetability
and light weight for a light road car?

----------
Posted by: Tom Binford 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 14 13:52:46 1993
Subject: Re: engines
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4500

> Are there particularly good choices for high power, streetability
> and light weight for a light road car?

IMHO, a blown smallblock...

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 14 13:58:48 1993
Subject: thread repairs/load in crank pulley bolts
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4501

I really screwed up this time...   was installing the balancer and
crank pulley on a chevy small block tonite, and decided to do it right
and get out the torque wrench (friggin click type).  Anyway, I ended up
way overtightening the balancer bolt and the pulley bolts.  I realized
something was wrong when the threads in the balancer for one of the
pulley bolts yielded.  ANyway, I've got one pulley bolt hole stripped, and
the balancer is on so tight I can't get it to budge, particularly
with only two bolts in the puller (cast aluminum generic 4 finger
type...  a nice thick steel one might work better).  I decided to try
some loctite form-a-thread, but I'm not sure how it will hold up.  
I have the  stock crank pulley, then a 1.5 inch spacer, and  then another
stock crank pulley (blower drive pulley) hanging off the balancer.
Ideally, I'd just  redrill and tap the whole for a larger  bolt,
but the thickness of the blower  pulley means I need to have the bolt
damn straight, and I'm  not going to  being able to drill/tap anywhere
close to straight with the balancer in the truck.  Anyone have any theories
as to whether two bolts plus  the crank bolt plus the one  questionable
bolt will hold the  blower  pulley adequately?  Or  am I running a large
risk of  sending something thru the hood at 6000 rpm?
 
miscellaneous details:
  Balancer - Fluiddampr 7.25"
  blower - vortec V-1
  blower drive pulley - stock 1991 GM truck seperentine  crank  pulley
                        (very similar in dimension  to a Vette pulley)
  bolts - grade 8

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 14 21:53:37 1993
Subject: engines
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4502


-> What are the weights of the big block engines?
-> In what state of completeness?

 Ford 427  650
 Ford 428  650
 Ford 429  640

 GM Mk IV  685  (Mark V maybe 10 pounds less)

 That supposedly includes starter, alternator, and flexplate.


-> Are there particularly good choices for high power, streetability and
-> light weight for a light road car?

 What kind of light road car?  Cobra kit, Camaro/Mustang, scratchbuilt?
Front or mid engine?
        

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 12:56:52 1993
Subject: RE: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4503

-> I had assumed that as well.  What exactly do you mean by prom
-> carrier? All of my ECMs take standard proms (TBI ECM takes a 2732,

The GN ECM uses a 2732 that is secured in a PROM carrier. Part number for the
carrier is Robinson-Nugent PRC-246-E3. Anybody got a line on these yet? I think
all the TPI setups use some other carrier setup.

ron
mellum@skyler.mavd.honeywell.com

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 13:22:45 1993
Subject: Re: Lookin' fer work? Not exactly !
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4504


In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> reckon driving 10,000 miles across the US was enough work for the time being
> don't you ? How are y'all anyway ? First day back for me...strange it's like I
>never even left the place ! But after a vacation like that I had to come 
>back   to work for a rest ! Thank you thank you thank you and if you're 
>ever in Oz...


Hey Geof glad to hear you made it back in one piece.
It was sure neat to meet you and Anita, I'm just sorry you had to see
some of our worst entertainment. ;-)


So how was your tour of the US of A?
Did ya pick up some neat speed parts for the ute?
I'm dying to hear about your trip! 

BTW A couple of my friends at the Police dept. said to say hi. :-)


                     
                     |                    
                     | David Gunsul       
                     | dcg@mogun.uucp      
                     |------------------------------------------------
                     |  It's amazing what $2,500 worth of big block
                     |  will do to $60,000 worth of high technology. 

----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 13:58:57 1993
Subject: Looking for headers.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4505

   Anybody know where I can mail order headers for my T-bird S/C?  Because I
reside in the People's Rep. of CA., they must be CARB approved.  Also,
I would prefer components that bolt directly to the stock exhuast system.
Thanx.

----------
Posted by: Gordon Laird 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 17:08:29 1993
Subject: Re: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4506

        Reply to:   RE>>Ignition Curves

[... The GN ECM uses a 2732 that is secured in a PROM carrier. Part number for
the carrier is Robinson-Nugent PRC-246-E3. Anybody got a line on these yet? I
think all the TPI setups use some other carrier setup.

ron
mellum@skyler.mavd.honeywell.com ...]

I found a direct source for them ... they're pretty cheap, but they will only
see them in lots of 100 (if I remember correctly).  I think it was something
like $55 for 100 of them.

The phone number for R-N is:

(812) 945-0211

Ken Mosher
Buick GN: Hairdryers and Horsepower!


[We'd talked about doing a group purchase a few months ago.  Anyone still
interested?  I'd be happy to handle the purchase through my company
if there is enough interest.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 17:46:35 1993
Subject: Re: Looking for headers.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4507

JBA in San Diego.  They just moved and are on Mission Gourge Road,
San Diego, but certainly at the same phone number.
Mike

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 17:49:30 1993
Subject: Re: Looking for headers.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4508
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

JBA in San Diego.  They just moved and are on Mission Gourge Road,
San Diego, but certainly at the same phone number.
Mike

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 17:58:07 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4509
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article <0tltq5h@dixie.com>, hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> -> I believe it will. I planned to use a V6 rather than the large V8 as
> -> the powerplant, and some non-stock water pump arrangement to gain
> ...
> -> tired daily driver, a '78 SAAB which has been reliable enough to
> -> deserve a little hotrodding ;^) ; I'm just sick of the FWD.)
> 
>  Look; the Hydramatic itself will probably be as big as a Buick V6,
> which is the only thing that'll bolt up straight.  You could use one of
> the corporate trans adapters to put a Chevy V6 in, but that'd be a step

Right, I wish I could use the '63 Buick 215 V8 I have, but swapping
rules for emission controlled vehicles being what they are..., and the
prospects of having a custom 1:1 reversing transmission built, not to
mention the weight and size of the Toro based powertrain, [and merely
3 speeds,] are discouraging.

> backwards.  The 60 degree V6 has a weirdo bolt pattern; it won't go at
> all.
> 
>  I was just talking to a guy with a Porsche 924 the other day.  He wants
> to swap in a different motor.  The Porsche puts the engine up front and
> the transmission in back; he wasn't sure where the clutch was.  The
> first Pontiac Tempests did the same thing only using modified Corvair
> parts.

I made note of the rear transaxle possibility in one of your early
replies.  I suspect that only the 66-69 Corvair transaxles could stand
the [ab]usage; but, maybe I should look at the 61-63 transaxles for
ideas anyway.

>  How about you mount the engine of your choice up front, conventional
> longitudinal (north/south) configuration.  Considering it's a SAAB,
...
> straightforward.  At the back, use a Subaru, Audi, or Porsche 914
> transaxle.  The Subaru would probably be smallest and least expensive.
> All three already rotate the correct direction.  You'd need another
> adapter (hint: the Subaru clutch disc hub has the correct splines
> already), carrier, and yoke for the rear of the driveshaft.

These ideas, and reading an article about the Cheetah in Speciality Car 
this weekend have given me some interesting possibilities to pursue.
Wonder where they will lead me this time...

Thanks Dave.

> ----------
> Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)

-- 
Mark Walker	mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 18:08:42 1993
Subject: Hotrod List Charter
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4510
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>From emory!dixie.com!hotrod-request
From: hotrod-request@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
Subject: Hotrod List Charter

This is what will become a periodic posting of the charter of the hotrod
mailing list.  With all the new participants  we are picking up from
the alt.hotrod group, many have probably not seen this.  It is automatically
posted twice a month, on the 1st and on the 15th.

I wrote the charter in consultation with several people who helped get the
list going.  It has changed several times over the about 2 years the list
has been going.  If you think there needs to be another change, then
by all means bring it up for discussion.  My experience has been that 
most people don't seem to care a whole lot about the charter so 
I try to seek a consensus among those who do.

John
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The mailing list hotrod@dixie.com is chartered to provide a
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ennumerate permissible behavior. 

Unacceptable topics:  

*	Discussions about stock street cars.
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----------
Posted by: hotrod-request@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 23:22:50 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4512
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


In article , hotrod@dixie.com writes...
> 
>-> The sudden haste towards the Cobra is due to upcoming changes to the
>-> Motor Vehicle Act here.  After August 31, 1994 the motor that you use
>-> in your replicar, replikit, specialty vehicle and ubilt must be a
>-> 1988 or newer motor. Not only meeting 1988 or newer emissions, but a
>-> 1988 or newer motor.  This ruling would of course jeopardize any
>-> attempt to make a monster FE motor - thus the haste.
> 
> Well, that proves Canadian legislooters are just as stupid as their
>brethren south of the border.    I don't know of anything like
>that here, though the FUD factor is pretty high in some states.

I've heard that it's "legal" to swap any engine into any car (presumably
of the same make) as long as the engine was available (not necessarily in
that car) when the car was made.  However, I haven't heard that it's illegal
to ignore above law :) - if it were, there're a lot of old T roadsters
around here with *very* illegal small/big block ford & chevy engines in them :)
> 
> Down Under in Oz, some states have passed laws banning engine swaps
>unless they're certified by a Registered Professional Engineer.

Considering some of the swaps I've heard about...
>                                                                      
> 
>----------
>Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)

Mike Jamison

"Scientific research consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, but
thinking what no one else has thought"

						-A. Szent-Gyorgyi

----------
Posted by: emory!mars.lerc.nasa.gov!edwlt12 (Mike Jamison (ADF))
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 23:28:21 1993
Subject: seat belts/harnesses considered as performance enhancements
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4511
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


this is an attempt to put a non-flame spin on a discussion that otherwise
has the potential to be rather more festive and decorative than i'm sure
any of us want.

for some time now, at the driving schools i'm associated with, we've argued
that a properly installed 5 or 6 point harness system is a performance
enhancement; a correctly restrained driver ends up with better control over
his car, because he's not forced to use the steering wheel to hold himself
in place in high g corners, and the lack of slippage on the seat helps
with posture, control, etc.

i know that certainly i'd not take my alfa out on the track without my
5 point belts on.

richard
-- 
richard welty        518-393-7228       welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
``Nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of
  a race car about either its pitch or roll axis''  -- Carroll Smith

----------
Posted by: emory!balltown.cma.com!welty (richard welty)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 23:37:45 1993
Subject: Re: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4514
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

John wants to know if anybody is interested in buying some GM ROM
chip carriers.

I would be interested in 5 or 10 if they cost ~60 cents each.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 23:39:59 1993
Subject: Maynard Yingst dies
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4515
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Just heard this on ESPN's coverage of the Houston Nationals of last weekend.

Famed drag racing engine builder and crew chief Maynard Yingst died 
Saturday at the track of a stroke.

We've lost another legend.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 15 23:42:25 1993
Subject: ADMINISTRIVIA: Hotrod List Charter
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4513
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

This is what will become a periodic posting of the charter of the hotrod
mailing list.  With all the new participants  we are picking up from
the alt.hotrod group, many have probably not seen this.  It is automatically
posted twice a month, on the 1st and on the 15th.

I wrote the charter in consultation with several people who helped get the
list going.  It has changed several times over the about 2 years the list
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John
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The mailing list hotrod@dixie.com is chartered to provide a
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Unacceptable topics:  

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Explicitly acceptable is any discussion regarding increasing the performance
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----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com (The hotrod mailing list)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 16 13:41:20 1993
Subject: RN EPROM Carriers
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4516
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>like $55 for 100 of them.

I don't want to sound tight, but that seems a little high for a plastic shell.
I know that distributors like Shelley-Ragon, Schweber, etc handle them. We used
to be able to buy through them , but then somebody in mgmt thought they would
save money by eliminating that option. Now all it does is eliminate all that
free R&D that the company used to get. But then that's not a subject for Hot
Rodding. I'll do some checking around here.

Ron

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 16 13:46:55 1993
Subject: EPROM Carriers
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4517
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

        Reply to:   EPROM Carriers
[... John wants to know if anybody is interested in buying some GM ROM
chip carriers.

I would be interested in 5 or 10 if they cost ~60 cents each.

Bob Hale  ...]

You can put me down for 10-15 as well ... as long as they are the PRC-246-E3
carriers for the 2732 EPROMs.

Ken Mosher
Buick GN: "... honest officer, it's just a little V6 ...."
Buick GN                                    ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 





----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 16 13:52:56 1993
Subject: Re: seat belts/harnesses considered as performance enhancements
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4518
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Richard Welty comments about the desirability of 5 or 6 point
harnesses but I'm not sure where his comments are aimed.

I found out more than 20 years ago that good seat belts are a
nesessity for any kind of off-road work.  The typical belt-and-
retractable-shoulder belts are better than nothing but I would
really like to be held in better than that.

So what's the target of the discussion?

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 16 13:57:46 1993
Subject: Re: seat belts/harnesses considered as performance enhancements
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4519
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

The Hotrod List
> 
> for some time now, at the driving schools i'm associated with, we've argued
> that a properly installed 5 or 6 point harness system is a performance
> enhancement; a correctly restrained driver ends up with better control over
> his car, because he's not forced to use the steering wheel to hold himself
> in place in high g corners, and the lack of slippage on the seat helps
> with posture, control, etc.

You're not the only ones.  Our BMW club here in the Bay Area adds a point
onto your classification number if you have racing belts.  At first I
couldn't believe that they would penalize auto-xers for having a safety
item, but when I put the 5-point Simpsons in the '02, I found out why :-)

DAVE (johnson@wrs.com) Internet Z-Club member #51

----------
Posted by: David Johnson 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 16 23:52:46 1993
Subject: Thank (Your Favorite Diety) It's March In MD!!!
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4520
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Well, I'm just posting to say I love having my old gasoline back at the 
pump.  I'm referring to the seasonal switch back to regular (read non-
oxygenated) fuels at the pump.  By now any gas stations tanks should have a 
low percentage of oxygenated fuel in them (if you state's program is a Nov. 
thru Feb. one like Maryland's) and the stuff at the hose is now the good 
stuff.

My carburated (sp?) 81' Toyota Corona (22R) runs MUCH better on the non-
oxygenated 89 octane than it was on the oxygenated 93 octane.

My turbo-ed EFI'd 92' Eclipse GSX shows less of an improvement (if any).

Anybody else have these kind of results?

|////////////////////////////////////////////////|
| Pete Paraska       (paraska@oasys.dt.navy.mil) |
| David Taylor Model Basin, CARDEROCKDIV         |
|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!paraska (Pete Paraska)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 00:03:56 1993
Subject: seat belts/harnesses considered as performance enhancements
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4521
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> this is an attempt to put a non-flame spin on a discussion that
-> otherwise has the potential to be rather more festive and decorative
-> than i'm sure any of us want.

 Gee, Richard - maybe the Nomex fire suit tipped you off?  


-> for some time now, at the driving schools i'm associated with, we've
-> argued that a properly installed 5 or 6 point harness system is a
-> performance enhancement; a correctly restrained driver ends up with
-> better control over his car, because he's not forced to use the
-> steering wheel to hold himself

 Unless your seat and ass are covered in Velcro, I don't see much point
in arguing the point.  If you're seriously driving, you need restraints.
There just aren't enough arms and legs to stay put, at least in a manual
transmission car.

 Unfortunately, stock safety-goober style seat belts are just about
useless for hard driving, in particular those stupid inertia-reel
devices, which quite often (in my experience) either don't latch, or
manage to somehow tighten up as you run, which ain't too hot unless the
blue face matches your hairstyle.

 My old A/MOD Capri had dual shoulder belts and dual lap belts - the
upper lap belt went back behind the seat to the floor, and the lower lap
belt went diagonally from just ahead of the seat back on the left to
halfway up the squab on the right.  This rather peculiar arrangement
came about because I definitely didn't care for the crotch strap,
particularly when I was working the clutch.  The diagonal arrangement
gave a little more freedom to my left leg.

 Properly mounted shoulder straps also go either straight back or at a
slight downward angle; mounting them up to the roll bar or down on the
floor reduces their effectiveness considerably.  Unfortunately, a full
set of properly mounted belts makes it rather inconvenient to put
passengers in the back.  C'est la vie.
                                                           

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 00:18:32 1993
Subject: Re: Ignition Curves
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4522
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> [We'd talked about doing a group purchase a few months ago.  Anyone
-> still interested?  I'd be happy to handle the purchase through my
-> company if there is enough interest.  JGD]

 Aw, heck.  Put me down for $10 worth.
                                                                                         

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 00:26:04 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4523
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> > Down Under in Oz, some states have passed laws banning engine swaps
-> >unless they're certified by a Registered Professional Engineer.

> Considering some of the swaps I've heard about...

 Ha.  Find a copy of "On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors" by John
Z. "Things go better with coke" DeLorean.  There's a section where he
tells about driving one of the early Vega prototypes.  While motoring
peacefully around the test track, the entire front end collapsed from
the firewall forward.

 Of course, the productions ones did that too, it just took a little
longer...
                                                                                                             

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 00:31:41 1993
Subject: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4524
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


 My 1960 Bel Air's days are numbered, at least in its present
incarnation.  I've made a deal for a 454.  Actually, a complete 1975
Chevy Silverado pickup, slightly bent in front.  The engine has about
100,000 miles on it and is slightly tired, but it runs OK.  It's
attached to a Turbo 400.

 Now, although this will result in a serious testosterone boost in the
old car (235 Six and 3-on-the-tree now), the gas mileage shouldn't
suffer much.  The six only gets 14mpg, and that's on the highway, right
after a tuneup.  However, it's pulling a 3.42 axle, which the 454 might
not like much, mileage-wise.  I immediately started thinking about a
3.08 or 2.73 10-bolt to replace the old front-loader rear.  The car
"only" weighs 3200 pounds, so the big block should be able to haul it
around with reasonable authority even with the tall gears.

 A couple of people have mentioned staying with something like the 3.42
gears and using the 700R4 box, which is supposedly an overdrive with
lockup convertor.  None of my service manuals are new enough to tell me
anything about the 700.

 There'd be no reason for a performance convertor, so I'm assuming I'll
need to add a switch to control the lockup function.  Other than that,
what would I run into?  Does the 700 use the T400 or T350 style yoke?

 What kind of vehicle would such a transmission come in?  It'll have to
be Chevrolet bolt pattern, of course.
                                                                               

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 00:36:49 1993
Subject: distributer rebuilding
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4525
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


i need some information regarding rebuilding a sb chevy distributer.
i am interested in the maximum allowable wear between the bearings and the
shaft and the easiest way of measureing it.  also the maximum allowable
shaft wear.
thanks,
dan stanger

----------
Posted by: emory!evolving.com!dxs
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 00:41:17 1993
Subject: 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4526
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


 Though mail has been fine, the news flow to chaos has been down for
several days.  Now the logjam has broken, and there's a flood of 700R4
messages in r.a.t.
                                                           

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 00:48:07 1993
Subject: PONTIAC 400 for sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4527
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu



PONTIAC MOTOR FOR SALE

* 1968 GTO 400 CID (YS), 0.060" oversize (411 CID), align-bored and decked to 
  acheive 12.0:1CR, complete reciprocating assembly balanced
* TRW forged pistons, machined for double Spiralox retainers and pins machined
  for proper fit, moly rings
* Connecting rods have  "small end" oversized for floating pins.  Rods are cast 
  steel but had beams polished and have been shot-peened, are fitted with 
  Automotive Racing Products (ARP) 8740 chromemoly rod bolts
* LUNATI forged steel crankshaft with chromed journals (STD, STD), main and rod
  bearings are CLEVLITE 77
* Main bearing caps are retained with ARP 8740 chromemoly stud-kit (2 bolt mains)
* CRANE 'Fireball' camshaft with RHOADS lifters and chromemoly pushrods
* Heads are cast number '136' (2.11 INTAKE, 1.88 EXHAUST w/98cc chambers). 
  Have been port-matched and have radiused bowls, 3-angle valve job and bronze 
  guides, fitted with CRANE valvesprings for BB Chevy and ARP 8740 chromemoly 
  studs
* MOROSO high volume oil pump and pickup (oil pan is 8qt. capacity, windage tray)
* McCleod 10.5/11 long-style pressure plate and 11" disk	
* LAKEWOOD scattersheild	
* '65 PONTIAC "Tri-Power" intake	
* Carter high-volume mechanical fuel pump
* EDELBROCK water injection unit	
* ACCEL Racing Dual Point Distributor and Super-Coil
* MSD 6A Electronic Ignition with Taylor Spiro-Pro 8mm wires

* FORD "Toploader" 4SPD with Hurst "Super Shifter III"

Motor for sale, with or without transmission and shifter
W/  transmission and shifter	$3000.00
W/O  transmission and shifter	$2500.00

I have been told this motor has about 50 hours of run time on it.  This motor
"came-with-the-car" when I purchased a '67 GTO.  The above description is as it
was described when I purchased the vehicle.  The reason I want to sell it
is to finance rebuilding the original motor.  This motor is still in the car 
and you can "hear it run".  If you would like to talk, please call
	James Anderson, at (208)376-7405

Also, to address the "NO HYPE" requirement, I will allow disassembly/inspection
of this motor.

----------
Posted by: James Anderson 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 11:59:59 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4528
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> Dave Williams wrote however I condensed it.
> 
>  My 1960 Bel Air's days are numbered, at least in its present
> incarnation.  I've made a deal for a 454.  Actually, a complete 1975
> Chevy Silverado pickup, 
 
>  However, it's pulling a 3.42 axle, which the 454 might
> not like much, mileage-wise.  I immediately started thinking about a
> 3.08 or 2.73 10-bolt to replace the old front-loader rear.  The car
> "only" weighs 3200 pounds, so the big block should be able to haul it
> around with reasonable authority even with the tall gears.
> 
>  A couple of people have mentioned staying with something like the 3.42
> gears and using the 700R4 box, which is supposedly an overdrive with
> lockup convertor.  None of my service manuals are new enough to tell me
> anything about the 700.
> 
Well Dave I'm not sure which version of the 454 you have but the newer
versions are much more torque minded than the earlier versions.  As an
example the old 450 HP version weas only available with three gear ratios
from Chevey mainly 3.73, 4.11 and 4.56.  It also had a cam with a durration 
of around 316 degrees.  This engine does not compare to the newer 454's
that run with gears in the 2's and produce most of there power at low rpm's.
While your engine is probably somewhere in between these I think you have 
a good working possibility.

With the 700 transmission you do have an overdrive gear for greater gas milage.
However if you do go to 3.08 gears you resultant final drtive ratio would
be around 2.28 which only the real torque versions of this engine could
handle.  To keep that final drive ratio more in the workable range I would
either stick with the 3.42 while the hold together giving you a final
ratio of around 2.54 untill they hit the dust.  At that time you will have 
a better idea and will know for your self which way to go but if your like me
you will probably opt for something in the mid 4's.

Dennis 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 13:14:42 1993
Subject: Re: Thank (Your Favorite Diety) It's March In MD!!!
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4529
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Well,
	It's march in Massachusetts too... and You ought to see my '84 cavalier
RUSTING AWAY from this lovely winter. Salt took it's toll on my car..
(and i didn't help it any by not giving it a bath in the cold :'(

Glad it's just a winter beater...

BTW! almost time for the blown 65 Gto to start rolling down the road :')..
(Nothing like a whistle to announce your' arrival...)

-dan a.

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 13:25:19 1993
Subject: Thank (Your Favorite Diety) It's March In MD!!!
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4530
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu



Begin forwarded message:

>Well, I'm just posting to say I love having my old gasoline back at  
>the pump.  I'm referring to the seasonal switch back to regular  
>(read non-oxygenated) fuels at the pump.  By now any gas stations  
>tanks should have a low percentage of oxygenated fuel in them (if  
>you state's program is a Nov. thru Feb. one like Maryland's) and the  
>stuff at the hose is now the good stuff.

Here in Phoenix, we are still gagging on the MTBE fumes at the pumps.  
I believe we are stuck with it until mid April. I am looking foward  
to the switch. My Z-28 runs like an anemic Pinto on the MTBE gas. 

---
**********************************************************
Scott Colbath
Stratus Computer
Phoenix, Az.  (602)852-3106
Internet:scott_colbath@az.stratus.com
**********************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!phoenix.az.stratus.com!scol (Scott Colbath)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 13:35:12 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4531
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu (Mark Walker) writes:
"> what about a dana/spicer 44 [from a vette or jag maybe]?  a variety of 
"> 'reverse rotation' gear sets are made for ford 4x4 applications.
"
"I had wondered about this possiblility, but had nearly convinced myself
"(from looking at Chilton's, and the like) that there wasn't a stock
"front axle that would work since the ring gear seems to always be on the
"right (as viewed from the driveshaft) of the pinion.  Do you have
"pointers as to where I should look, or who I should contact about these
"4x4 applications?  And, what 4x4 applications need reverse rotation?

can't help you much, there...  my comment was based on the observation
that the folks that make aftermarket ring & pinion sets have a
separate column in their charts for ford reverse rotation applications.
-- 
		although you should be doing something productive
		with your life, you are instead wasting your time
		reading this inane mindless rambling drivel from
		the keyboard of:	Andrew Hay, a.d.hay@att.com

----------
Posted by: emory!petrel.att.com!adh (Andy Hay)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 13:42:44 1993
Subject: Duraspark price?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4532
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I was wondering what would be a good price or what should I expect to pay for 
a used Duraspark distributor.  Should I get a rebuild kit for it after I get  
it or is there such things?  How much does one cost and how hard is it to do?
I think the one I'm looking at is out of a 79' 351W.   Are there any specific
years to stay away from?  Sorry for all the questions.  Thanks.
Tom McClendon
gt7038d@prism.gatech.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!prism.gatech.edu!gt7038d (MCCLENDON,WILLIAM THOMAS)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 14:40:49 1993
Subject: Re: seat belts/harnesses considered as performance enhancements
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4533
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> for some time now, at the driving schools i'm associated with, we've argued
> that a properly installed 5 or 6 point harness system is a performance
> enhancement; a correctly restrained driver ends up with better control over
> his car, because he's not forced to use the steering wheel to hold himself
> in place in high g corners, and the lack of slippage on the seat helps
> with posture, control, etc.

A good seat helps, too.  I've driven our Formula-SAE cars without a "seat"
(a pair of molded hard foam blocks that fit on each side of the driver's back/
torso) which meant I could slide around laterly about 2 inches each direction.
One lap at an autocross and my arms would be really sore.  Cranking down
on the belts really tight helped  significantly, but was still sore
after 1 lap.  Made a seat that I could fit in and no more sore arms.  My lap
times improved, too.

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 14:45:56 1993
Subject: Thank (Your Favorite Diety) It's March In MD!!!
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4534
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> BTW! almost time for the blown 65 Gto to start rolling down the  
> road :')..(Nothing like a whistle to announce your' arrival...)

Hey Dan,
	Do you ever make it to Nicks Ice Cream in on Saturday nights  
with the GTO? While living in Mass, I used to take the AMX out there.  
Lots of nice cars to view.

			Scott
 




----------
Posted by: emory!phoenix.az.stratus.com!scol (Scott Colbath)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 14:51:18 1993
Subject: Re: Thank (Your Favorite Diety) It's March In MD!!!
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4535
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> Begin forwarded message:
> Here in Phoenix, we are still gagging on the MTBE fumes at the pumps.  
> I believe we are stuck with it until mid April. I am looking foward  
> to the switch. My Z-28 runs like an anemic Pinto on the MTBE gas. 

So richen the mix! A well adjusted carb should make MORE power on
oxygenated fuel. Of course, I say this so easily - it's just a turn
of the screws on my Dell'Orto...


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com

----------
Posted by: emory!wal.hp.com!lupienj (John Lupien)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 17:40:19 1993
Subject: Thank (Your Favorite Diety) It's March In MD!!!
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4536
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu



>So richen the mix! A well adjusted carb should make MORE power on
>oxygenated fuel. Of course, I say this so easily - it's just a turn
>of the screws on my Dell'Orto...


I hate to admit it, but it's cross-fire injection. Not Chevy's best  
attempt at induction.
---
**********************************************************
Scott Colbath
Stratus Computer
Phoenix, Az.  (602)852-3106
Internet:scott_colbath@az.stratus.com
**********************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!phoenix.az.stratus.com!scol (Scott Colbath)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 17 17:46:18 1993
Subject: Holley Vac Sec Spring mods
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4537
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu



Has anyone out there tailored a Holley secondary throttle spring to
provide a slightly different opening point and rate?

I have been trying to pin down a carb setup that so far has eluded me,
Using Holley's vac sec sping kit I have found that the purple spring
gives about the best 'overall' performance.  The problem I have found
is that this spring allows the secondaries to open a bit too soon, but
allows full opening of the secondaries at the engine peak rpm. (based on
VE calculated around 87%)  I measure start open and full open points with
a couple of contact switches activated by the secondary throttle lever. Each
switch triggers a small light bulb beside the tach. 

The reason I say it opens too soon is that the engine delivers an increase
in power above 2500 rpm, I can definitely feel a pick-up in acceleration around
20-25mph.  Also an accelerometer measured a dip in g-force just past the 15' mark
and didnt pick back up until about 50-60' mark.  The next stiffer spring eliminates the dip but, overall performance is reduced (ie... 1/4mi & 0-60MPH)

I have set up a test rig to measure spring height at load.  Using this I would
like to tailor one of the springs to provide more load at opening height, but 
maintain the same (or similar) load at full open height.  I have measured the
purple spring and the next stiffer spring (plain) and found the jump in spring
stiffness to be pretty big.  What I need is a spring in between the purple and
the plain spring.  Anyone made this type mod?  Any hints/experience/ideas 
appreciated.


$0.02

Ericy

      *---------------------------------+---------------------------*
      | Eric Youngblood                                             |
      | Bell-Northern Research    _                                 |
      | Richardson, Texas 75082 _| ~-                               |
      |                         \,  _}                              |
      |                           \(    +---------------------------|
      |                                 |   Peon w/o Email privs    |
      *---------------------------------+---------------------------*

----------
Posted by: (Eric Youngblood)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 03:45:28 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4538
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


In article , you write:
> 
> mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu (Mark Walker) writes:
> "> what about a dana/spicer 44 [from a vette or jag maybe]?  a variety of 
> "> 'reverse rotation' gear sets are made for ford 4x4 applications.
> "
> "I had wondered about this possiblility, but had nearly convinced myself
> "(from looking at Chilton's, and the like) that there wasn't a stock
> "front axle that would work since the ring gear seems to always be on the
> "right (as viewed from the driveshaft) of the pinion.  Do you have
> "pointers as to where I should look, or who I should contact about these
> "4x4 applications?  And, what 4x4 applications need reverse rotation?
> 
> can't help you much, there...  my comment was based on the observation
> that the folks that make aftermarket ring & pinion sets have a
> separate column in their charts for ford reverse rotation applications.

Thanks Andy, that's enough to go on.

-- 
 I daydream about fusing two Buick 	| Mark Walker 
 V6s into a V12 and stuffing it into a	| mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu.
 chopped 'n dropped '53 Buick Super...	| 505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)
 	Am I sick or what?		| Albuquerque, NM

----------
Posted by: emory!warlock.eece.unm.edu!mwalker
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 03:51:13 1993
Subject: Re:  Holley Vac Sec Spring mods
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4539
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 I did this by trial and error (no measurement of secondary throttle angle,
although that is a nifty idea). My case benefited from having the springs 
lighter, to open quicker. I had a situation where things would go fine until
about 3000RPM under load and then sort of plateau; couldn't pull enough air
to open the secondaries much. The long yellow one is what I'm with now. 

 The purple spring is maybe 1 step softer than stock, which is either pink or
light brown (can't remember which). Big yellow and little yellow below that.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 03:57:53 1993
Subject: ignition help
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4540
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


I want to upgrade my HEI ignition system in my 350 chevy but am not sure what I 
should get.  I've read that capacitive discharge systems were the way to go, 
but I've also seen some kind of "HEI intensifier" kit and an   
"HEI Super Coil" by Accel.  I've noticed and MSD Super HEI kit and an 
MSD 6A which says it which hooks right up to my current OEM HEI system.
Any help on this ignition bombardment would be helpful.  I want to be able to have it run up to 6500 if that makes any difference. 

[350 chevy, 30 over, reworked SR heads(1.6 rockers), hyperu pistons, performer  intake, edelbrock carb, comp cam 268H, rhoads lifters.......] 
---------------------------------------------------------------
"hope she'll take it"..."well, drop the hammer and find out."

----------
Posted by: emory!cbnewsf.cb.att.com!tkratzer (troy.d.kratzer)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 04:05:03 1993
Subject: Re: Holley Vac Sec Spring mods
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4541
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Eric Youngblood writes about modifying a Holley vacuum secondary
system to overcome a bog.

One of the questions that must be asked is: do you want this to
work well on the street, or is it just for drag racing, or is
it somewhere in between?  If it's just for drag racing then that's
the simplest case.

You can lengthen a spring by peening it.  Make some kind of a
mandrel that fits the inside of the spring fairly well and
use it to back up the spring.  Tap on the surface of the spring
with a smooth-faced hammer to flatten the wire a bit.  Do this
uniformly along the length of the spring until you get the
desired change.  Don't just stretch the spring becaue that will
introduce a weak spot that is likely to give with time.

Another thing that you can do with the vacuum secondaries is to
change the size of the vacuum restriction.  Drilling it out will
decrease the time that it takes to open.  If it opens too fast
to suit you then you need to make the hole smaller.  This can be
done by making a plug for the hole and drilling a new hole through
the plug.  Install the plug after it has been drilled.

If you have access to a coil winder then you might make some
springs of your own which are intermediate between the two
Holley springs.  Another possibility might be to shorten an
existing spring by compressing it some and baking it in an
oven for a while.  Usually around 400 degrees for 20 minutes or
so will cause the spring to take a new set that is somewhat
shorter than the original length.  I've never tried this with
a Holley vacuum secondary spring so I have no idea if these
are good numbers to use on these particular springs but a little
experimentation should show you what can be achieved.

If the purpose is for street or some kind of variable throttle
racing then the problem is more difficult because you have a
wider range of conditions where the secondary opening needs to
match the engine's needs.  You may need to use more finesse with
these applications.

Please let us know how you fix the problem.  I'm sure that some
of the rest of us could benefit from the information.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 04:18:55 1993
Subject: Re: Making Flatheads move
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4542
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In rec.motorcycles.harley you write:
>  
>I'm interested in everything that makes Flatheads go faster. Maybe someone 
>could give me a tip of books, articles etc. concerning this exciting subject.

>Waiting for replies

*>>> Well you could try boring it out to 3 5/8 ths with a 4" stroker crank
     and a set of Norton pistons like we did. We have an Isky "max#1" cam
     and adjustable lifters with chevy smallblock valves. Put two Stromberg
     type 2bbl's (actually Holley 94's) on an Offenhauser med.riser and dual
     hi-flow pipes under a pair of Edelbrock hi-comp. heads and the ol'
     flathead should go a >>lot<< faster. Ours sure did. Oh...HARLEY flathead !
     Thought we had a fan of Henry's finest old bent eight in the group for a
     minute. Oh well...we just love our '53 Ranchero anyway. Now if we can just
     get our hands on a cheap (relative) FXR-Sp (low rider sport) we'll be
     home and hosed.
                   ciao for now
                   Geof...(Bigfoot).

----------
Posted by: emory!minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU!rxkgre (Geof Evans)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 04:29:06 1993
Subject: Re:  Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4543
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

T700 uses a 350-style yoke.  Bolt in place.  Use the stock lock up converter

To get a relialble and simple lock arrangement, by a PassMaster vacuume switch,
and the 4th gear autolocker from Autorite Transmission.

With this setup, high vac on the 3-4 transition locks as soon as the 
shift is done.  Low vac locks when you take your foot off the floor.

I just purchaced the auto tranny book recommended here the other day.
In the 3rd edition, there is a good discussion of the T700 and the new
4 speed version of the TH400 ( 4L60 or something like that ).


	 Frank Evan Perdicaro 				Xyvision Color Systems
      Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today.		101 Edgewater Drive
   inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572				Wakefield MA
outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572		018801285

----------
Posted by: emory!uunet.UU.NET!contex!marvin.contex.com!frank (Frank Perdicaro)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 11:43:03 1993
Subject: number for Soft Seal?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4544
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Does anyone know the phone number for a company called Soft Seal.
I'm told they deal in replacement weather stripings.
                                          thanks
                                                Mark

----------
Posted by: emory!resdgs1.er.usgs.gov!mfugazzo (Mark Fugazzotto)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 11:53:10 1993
Subject: Re: Holley Vac Sec Spring mods
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4545
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> I have set up a test rig to measure spring height at load.  Using this I would
> like to tailor one of the springs to provide more load at opening height, but 
> maintain the same (or similar) load at full open height.  I have measured the
> purple spring and the next stiffer spring (plain) and found the jump in spring
> stiffness to be pretty big.  What I need is a spring in between the purple and
> the plain spring.  Anyone made this type mod?  Any hints/experience/ideas 
> appreciated.

Is  there enough clearance to put a shim under or on top of the spring?
I'm not sure exactly how you can accomplish it, but it seems that you'd like
to increase the preload on the spring and either maintain or possibly lower
the rate of the spring.  Although I'm not sure you can shim the spring enough
to significantly increase the preload.  Ideally what you'd want is a longer


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 12:41:02 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4546
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 > 
> > Dave Williams wrote however I condensed it.
> > 
> >  My 1960 Bel Air's days are numbered, at least in its present
> > incarnation.  I've made a deal for a 454.  Actually, a complete 1975
> > Chevy Silverado pickup, 
> > 
> >  A couple of people have mentioned staying with something like the 3.42
> > gears and using the 700R4 box, which is supposedly an overdrive with
> > lockup convertor.  None of my service manuals are new enough to tell me
> > anything about the 700.
> > 
 
I just talked with a Chevy dealer today and on the new trucks with 
the 454 engine they are presently offering a range of gear ratios
from 3.23 to 5.13 as stock with the 4 speed automatic.  If you order
a four speed or 3 speed automatic then the 2.73, and 3.08 are available.
So I would not go any lower (numerically) than 3.23 and with your engine 
probably producing hp at higher RPM's I'd look into the high 3's or
low 4's.
 
> With the 700 transmission you do have an overdrive gear for greater gas milage 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 18 12:47:13 1993
Subject: Re:  Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4547
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>T700 uses a 350-style yoke.  Bolt in place.  Use the stock lock up converter

I was under the impression that the TH700R4 was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer
than a short-tail TH350 (so you have to shorten the driveshaft) and that
the transmission crossmember needs to be modified to move the mount about
3-4" farther backwards.  Is this correct, or is it really a direct bolt
in?  I'm looking to put one in my Z28, but don't have the time or money
to do all the mods right now.  I haven't gotten the trans yet, so I can't
put it next to the TH350 in the garage and compare them yet...  Thanks!!

-- Steve


   Steven T McClure     '84 GPZ 750 Turbo pilot          stm0@gte.com
GTE Government Systems         DoD #0425              
  Needham, Ma. 02194            /*  Insert standard disclaimer here. */
Beta software: 'beta than nothing, and that's usually all it is...

----------
Posted by: emory!gte.com!stm0 (Steven McClure)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 00:29:38 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4548
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

On Mar 12, 14:06, The Hotrod List wrote:
> This could be a little misleading here.  Due to Fords head design they
> have a tendency to work better as torque engines rather than the GM
> engines which produce best power at high RPM's.  Also the difference
> in cubic inches allows the use of wilder cams on bigger engines.  An
> example is that Copetetion cams that a 252 degree cam on a 265 Cu inch
> engine is a little wilder than a 268 degree cam on a 400 cubic inch
> engine.  With the bigger cubic inches you can use more fuel on the bottom end.

At least on 302/305 smallblocks, the bore/stroke ratio of the Ford
vs. the Chevy tends to make the opposite true.

-Bob


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
| Unix Consultant   |-------------------------------------------------------|
| Consultant to MCI | Phone:719-535-1322 | Internet:rmwise@apdev.mci.com    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: emory!csn.org!mcigate!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 00:36:10 1993
Subject: Re: flame?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4549
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> Are there any harnasses available that DON'T involve fiddling with 5
> separate straps?  I'd love to find a competition-grade 3 point
> harnass with a single clasp.  JGD]

Part of "competition grade" in my opinion is to have a 5 or 6 point
system.  The anti-sub strap(s) are a critical part of belt
performance.  You couldn't have a "competition-grade" 3 point system
because it wouldn't have the anti-sub capability.  Note that
significant abdominal injuries often occur even where the occupants
were wearing their seatbelts.

I have used 5 point belts on the street before, both the camlock and the
latch type.  For street use I strongly recommend the camlock setups.
I found that the camlock style was usable on the street.

-Bob



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
| Unix Consultant   |-------------------------------------------------------|
| Consultant to MCI | Phone:719-535-1322 | Internet:rmwise@apdev.mci.com    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Well let me restate this a bit clearer.  Is there a place one can
get a 3 point harness or a 5 point that does not involve 5 separate straps
that is made of the same grade materials as a regular harness?  JGD]


----------
Posted by: emory!csn.org!mcigate!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 00:50:48 1993
Subject: Rebuild of 51 Ford in F-5 flat bed (17,000 GVW)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4550
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

What recommendations can someone make to improve this engine

 for dependability and such.

----------
Posted by: Charles Bynaker 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 01:04:39 1993
Subject: Re:  number for Soft Seal?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4551
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

A&M Soffseal
104 D8 May Dr.
Harrison, OH 45030
1-800-426-0902 orders only 
(513) 367-5506

I ordered a pretty complete weatherstripping set from them a while back. It
arrived in about 3 weeks. I haven't installed it yet.Quality looked good when
I inspected the stuff though.

Their kits are not Correct, since they use modern materials. If you want
Correct over functionality and longevity you may have to look further.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 11:21:28 1993
Subject: Re:  Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4552
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Replying to replies of my reply to somebody's question.  Hmmm.

I do not have the name of that tranny book on the top of my head,
but its very close to "Automatic Transmission Fundamentals, 3rd. Edition",
and its on the shelf at Lauriats.  Published very recently.  List is
about $45.  I'll try to bring it in and post its specs.

And yes, the 700R4 is a bit longer than the TH350.  They come with different 
numbers of output splines ( 28 and 31 ), so you may have to graft the tailshaft
piece ofthe '700 onto your driveshaft, along with the shortening.

If I do not respond to email queries, its because I have become
unUSENETconnected for a week or two.

	 Frank Evan Perdicaro 				Xyvision Color Systems
      Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today.		101 Edgewater Drive
   inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572				Wakefield MA
outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572		018801285

----------
Posted by: emory!uunet.UU.NET!contex!marvin.contex.com!frank (Frank Perdicaro)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 11:27:58 1993
Subject: MSD7 GIF's are now available.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4553
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I have John's MSD wave form GIFs in place on my ftp site for those interested.

Is anyone interested in a Hotrod list car GIF show?
I created a 'contest' directory just in case anyone wants to see
what everyone else is running.

Millam

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 11:35:19 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4554
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


In article <1wkttap@dixie.com>, hotrod@dixie.com writes...
>Mike Jamison wrote:
>"I hear checking for NOx is very difficult and expensive.  In Cleveland, OH,
>CO, HC and (believe it or not) CO2 are checked - the CO2 is just for a 
>reference."
> 
>And John followed up:
>"[The CO2 check is to catch people who simply dillute the exhaust gas
>with, for example, lots of air injection.  That spoiled one of my
>favorite tricks :-(  JGD]"
> 
>The obvious answer then is to dilute with CO2.  One of those
>welding-size bottles holds a lot of liquid which turns into
>even more gas.  Add a regulator, solenoid valve, and some minor
>plumbing into the head pipes and you should be all set.

Now Mike Jamison writes:

Add still more plumbing, a few more valves, and use it as a Nitrous bottle
when you aren't trying to pass emissions :-)

The little ten pounders are good for about 6 or 7 runs, so I'd guess the
100 pound welding bottle would be good for a few weeks of racing...

[Only problem with this theory is you have to hit the CO/CO2 ratio 
pretty closely.  Hmmm, might be an idea to compress a tank full of
clean exhaust gas :-)  Actually with good cats, it's easier just to 
meet the standard.  JGD]

Mike Jamison

"Scientific research consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, but
thinking what no one else has thought"

						-A. Szent-Gyorgyi

----------
Posted by: emory!venus.lerc.nasa.gov!edwlt12 (Mike Jamison (ADF))
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 11:41:58 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4555
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> -Bob Wise posted
> > I had posted 
> On Mar 12, 14:06, The Hotrod List wrote:
> > This could be a little misleading here.  Due to Fords head design they
> > have a tendency to work better as torque engines rather than the GM
> > engines which produce best power at high RPM's.  Also the difference
> > in cubic inches allows the use of wilder cams on bigger engines.  An
> > example is that Copetetion cams that a 252 degree cam on a 265 Cu inch
> > engine is a little wilder than a 268 degree cam on a 400 cubic inch
> > engine.  With the bigger cubic inches you can use more fuel on the bottom 
>  >end.
> 
> At least on 302/305 smallblocks, the bore/stroke ratio of the Ford
> vs. the Chevy tends to make the opposite true.

If you are looking at the theory that long stroke means low end torque and
short stroke means rpm's you could be correct I'm not sure what Ford's
stroke is compared to a GM stroke on a 302/305.  But what I was looking at
was the basic flow characteristics and cam designs on stock engines that
create more bottom end torque on Ford engines and More top end Horsepower
on Chevy engine.  

Actually this is a long tradition between the two auto makers.  Ford always
looked for porformance through torque, and Chevey looked at preformance through
RPM's.  It has even carried on today with the 4 bangers they both make.  My
1990 Tempo is a lot faster in a 0 to 30 mph range than my 1989 Corsica, 
but when you look at top speed the Corsica is just starting to hum when the
Tempo is wound tight.  

Who is right torque or horsepower?  I think it depends on what your looking
for.  If you want an engine for pulling stumps then go Ford if you want
top end performance then look at Chevy.

dennis  
> 
 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 11:48:59 1993
Subject: Re:  Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4556
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I put a TH700-R4 in my '81 Cutlass in place of the TH350.  I have a version
of the transmission that has two sets of rear mount holes: one set on the rear
of the transmission housing, and one set on the tailshaft housing.  Using
to more forward set of holes, all I had to do was cut the bracket off the
crossmember and re-weld it about an inch lower (which also happened to 
move it back a little - just the right ammount).  The yolk worked fine, but
the driveshaft had to be cut - just under 3 inches if I remember correctly.
The cooling lines required very slight modifications.  The lock-up torque
converter was no problem since the TH350 also had this (ie. used same
computer control).  I'm still using the same column shifter which works
fine;  it just doesn't line up right with the indicator.

Wynand DePuy
   wdepuy@isye.gatech.edu  (for the next week)
       depuy@isye.gatech.edu (after that)

----------
Posted by: emory!chmsr.isye.gatech.edu!wdepuy (Wynand Crawford Depuy)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 17:19:42 1993
Subject: How to Buy a Used Rearend
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4557
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Hi, I am planning to buy a used positrac rearend for my '83 Firebird. It is 
supposedly to be an Australian 9 bolts from an '87 Iroc. Though, I have had 
a similar experience of buying a used Super T-10, the seller turned out to 
be a really nice guy, and we become good friend since. Now this guy I am 
not so sure. I haven't met him yet, but he certainly sounded a little tough 
over the phone. Now there are two things that could go wrong. It could be 
a wrong unit and it could be a broken one. Now what I should check? Should 
I carry a lot of cash and pay him in cash and ask for receipt? Or will he 
accept personal check? And if I do find out something wrong with it but 
only when I have taken back home for a while already, is there a way to get 
my money back? I think if I could pay with a personal check, I might be able 
to have the option of cancling the check if our conversation does not turn 
out to be really smooth.

I will greatly appreciate any advice on this. Thanks a lot.

Regards

Jizhong

----------
Posted by: emory!MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU!HJZ
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 17:34:47 1993
Subject: oxygenated gas
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4558
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

If they used MTBE (a popular octane improver) would'n the octane rating
at the the pump be raised. An explanation would be appriciated.

   Frank

[Since they blend for a target octane value, they simply drop out other
higher octane stock.  JGD]

----------
Posted by: emory!OAS.PSU.EDU!FBS3     (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 19 17:41:01 1993
Subject: T700 and others, book about
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4559
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


The book I was refering to in my two previous notes is 
  "Automatic Transmissions and Transaxles, Fundamentals of
  Operation Third Edition", by
  Mathaias F. Brejcha.  Prentice Hall.  ISBN 0-13-051202-8
  Copyright 1993.  About $45.

This book has a brother, called 
  "Automatic Transmissions and Transaxles, Diagnostic and Service
  Practices".  


The preface say "...extensive coverage of newly developed automatic
transmission/transaxle introductions for the 1990s and their
electronicatoin...."   Just the type of book for this mailing list.
Perhaps I should ask the guy for a referral fee?

Covered are
Chrysler TF A904/900, A727,250, A400, A670,254, A500,258, A604,262
Ford AOD, AODE, A4lD, E4OD, ATX, AXOD, AXOD-E, 4EAT
GM THM 400/3L80, 475/3L80-HD, 4L80-E, 125,125C/3T40, A1/3T40-A,
  700-R4/4L60, 440-T4/4T60, 4T60-E, 4L30-E


	 Frank Evan Perdicaro 				Xyvision Color Systems
      Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today.		101 Edgewater Drive
   inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572				Wakefield MA
outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572		018801285

----------
Posted by: emory!marvin.contex.com!frank (Frank Perdicaro)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 20 00:32:12 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4560
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Frank Evan Perdicaro writes:

>T700 uses a 350-style yoke.  Bolt in place.

TH700-R4 is actually longer than TH350; TH200-4R is same length, though I don't
know about crossmember mounts.  My understanding is that the latter isn't
very strong, and I've not seen any aftermarket-beefed versions as I have for
TH350, TH400, and TH700-R4.

>...(oops, deleted too far--mention is made of a book referenced here earlier)
>In the 3rd edition, there is a good discussion of the T700 and the new
>4 speed version of the TH400 ( 4L60 or something like that ).

Which book is that?  I seem to be unable to find the reference in previous
postings.  The TH400 descendant is the 4L80E; there's also a 4L60E, but
neither I nor the GMC truck guy I asked know its heritage.  It comes in
1500 and 2500 series trucks, whereas the 4L80E comes in 2500/C6P and 3500
trucks (over 8600lb GVW), so the latter is probably substantially tuffer.
I haven't heard that the aftermarket offers much for it yet, though...am I
wrong?

--Mark Looper
"Hot Rodders--America's first recyclers!"

----------
Posted by: emory!cco.caltech.edu!looper (Mark D. Looper)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 20 00:43:09 1993
Subject: Is this request for real? 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4561
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

geoffp@ean.ucs.mun.ca!geoffp says:

I no longer wish to be a part of this mailing list.
In fact, I never did.
No offence intended, I just never requested these letters.
Please remove my name from all your mail-associated lists.
Thanks.

[Geoff, if this is a prank, please let me know.  I had previously 
received a request to take your address off this list from someone
else claiming to be a "friend".  It smelled strongly of a prank so
I sent a reply back suggesting the sender play elsewhere.  This request
contains verbage that is quite similar to the other.  I've
dropped your address so if this is a prank, be sure to let me know.

Sorry about the distraction, guys.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!kean.ucs.mun.ca!geoffp
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 20 12:42:10 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4562
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>Frank Evan Perdicaro writes:
>
>
>TH700-R4 is actually longer than TH350; TH200-4R is same length, 
though I don't know about crossmember mounts.  

     The 200-4R has the same bellhousing to rear mount distance 
     as a TH-400.  

>My understanding is that the latter isn't
>very strong, and I've not seen any aftermarket-beefed versions as I have for
>TH350, TH400, and TH700-R4.

    True.  If you look at the pan, you'll eventually realize that it's
just a a TH200-series unit with a OD grafted on.   Althouh, I know of
2 that are holding up under some Buick GN's, and I've heard of more
than a few that are going strong.

    For us non-chevy guys, the 200-4R is a easier swap, since it comes
in all three GM bellhousing variations; Chevy only, B/O/P/Cad, and
Dual-Pattern.   (In otherwords, it bolts to any RWD GM motor...)

    I'm planning on adding a built 200-4R to my 71 Cutlass this
summer.   Gotta have OD, and I can't get my hands on a 6 speed vette
tranny.  (How would I hook it to a Olds motor anyway?!?!?!)

>Posted by: emory!cco.caltech.edu!looper (Mark D. Looper)

Question of the day:

     Anyone have a complete list of gear ratios for GM auto trannies?
     

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                  --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  

----------
Posted by: emory!mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 21 17:45:01 1993
Subject: Triumph TR7 rods?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4563
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


A couple of years ago I bought A Triumph TR7 sleeper rod. I ran accross
it at an autowrecker, and bought it for $500 (cdn.) for a parts car. I
was so impressed with its ability to scare the living daylights out of
me when I drive it that now I want to build one for myself. The one I've
got now has a '71 Buick 350 cid 4 bbl engine which 'barely' fits under
the hood. This car also tends to be rather nose heavy. I am hoping to
remedy this car's problems on the next one I build.

My question is this:

Does anyone know of an engine that fits well into a TR7?

My new car is a '79 Triumph TR7 convertible made for US federal market
with a Borg and Warner 3 speed Automatic.

Someone recommended to me that I might try a Buick 3.5 litre V-6. Does
anybody have any knowledge of such a combo?

Please email me your responces at:

gall@gamma.uleth.ca

Thanx in advance!

Greg.

----------
Posted by: emory!gamma.uleth.ca!gall (Greg Gall)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 21 17:52:04 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4564
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> know about crossmember mounts.  My understanding is that the latter isn't
> very strong, and I've not seen any aftermarket-beefed versions as I have for
> TH350, TH400, and TH700-R4.

 Look at some of the turbo buicks...  I believe quite a few of them are using
beefed up 200R4's.
 
> >...(oops, deleted too far--mention is made of a book referenced here earlier)
> >In the 3rd edition, there is a good discussion of the T700 and the new
> >4 speed version of the TH400 ( 4L60 or something like that ).
> 
> Which book is that?  I seem to be unable to find the reference in previous
> postings.  The TH400 descendant is the 4L80E; there's also a 4L60E, but
> neither I nor the GMC truck guy I asked know its heritage.  It comes in
> 1500 and 2500 series trucks, whereas the 4L80E comes in 2500/C6P and 3500
> trucks (over 8600lb GVW), so the latter is probably substantially tuffer.

The 4L80E is an electronically controlled tranmission.  I'm not sure
if it was "based" on the 400, but I'm sure there are very few similarities.
There is no such thing as a 4L60E.  There is a 4L60, and its just a
700R4 under a different name,  I have a 4L60 in a 91 GMC 2500 light duty
pickup.


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 21 17:58:11 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4565
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


>Right, I wish I could use the '63 Buick 215 V8 I have, but swapping
>rules for emission controlled vehicles being what they are..., and the
>prospects of having a custom 1:1 reversing transmission built, not to
>mention the weight and size of the Toro based powertrain, [and merely
>3 speeds,] are discouraging.
> 
You coould reverse the rotation of the 215.  Reversing kits do exist
(camshafts, distributor gears etc)  but they are tough to find 'cause 
nobody has made them in decades.  I have seen a few people advertising 
reversing kits for sale in the classifieds of the Corvair club magazine.
>> 
>>  I was just talking to a guy with a Porsche 924 the other day.  He wants
>> to swap in a different motor.  The Porsche puts the engine up front and
>> the transmission in back; he wasn't sure where the clutch was.  The
>> first Pontiac Tempests did the same thing only using modified Corvair
>> parts.
> 
>I made note of the rear transaxle possibility in one of your early
>replies.  I suspect that only the 66-69 Corvair transaxles could stand
>the [ab]usage; but, maybe I should look at the 61-63 transaxles for
>ideas anyway.
> 
My minimal knowledge about Corvair Transaxles.   First of all Corvair 
tranaxles separate in transmission and differential.  For V-8 power you 
should use the 66-69 tranmisssion, but the only person if seen break 
a 61-65 tranmission (were talking 4 speeds here), had a 250 hp corvair engine,
a full metallic clutch, and was known for his hot foot driving style.
As for the differentials, the internals are about the same, the main 
difference is in the case's provisions for transmission bolt parttern
and suspension link attachments, and spedo drive.  With a little work
a 66-69 transmision can be mated to a 61-64 and 65 differential case.
However for and v-8 power, the four spider gear kit should should be installed
in the differential to strengthen it, as I've already blown up two differentias
in my Corvair.  


Steve Cole

'66 Corvair convertible
'65 turbocharged autocrosser (in construction)

----------
Posted by: emory!zeus.tamu.edu!smc9782 (DEAD DOG)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 21 18:19:15 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4566
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>The TH400 descendant is the 4L80E; there's also a 4L60E, but
>neither I nor the GMC truck guy I asked know its heritage.  It comes in
>1500 and 2500 series trucks, whereas the 4L80E comes in 2500/C6P and 3500
>trucks (over 8600lb GVW), so the latter is probably substantially tuffer.

I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the 4L60E is an electronically
controlled version of the 200-4R.  The 4L80E is a 4-speed, electronically
controlled version of the Turbo 400.  The GM nomenclature is "4" for 4-speed,
"L" for longitudinal, "60," "80," or some number to indicate relative strength,
and "E" for electronically controlled.  An "80" trans is stronger than a "60"
trans but the numbers are relative.  Also, electronically controlled means that
the shifts are accomplished by solenoids activated by the powertrain control
module (PCM) as opposed to oil pressure against springs and diaphragms.
-- 
Scott A. Butzin                                sabg2063@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois
Automotive Systems Laboratory

----------
Posted by: emory!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!sabg2063 (Scott A. Butzin)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 01:27:09 1993
Subject: Re: Triumph TR7 rods?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4567
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> Does anyone know of an engine that fits well into a TR7?

I have a friend with a TR-7 with a Datsun Z-22 that fits very nicely.
I'm not sure what the performance picture looks like for the NAPS-Z
engine though.  I had one in an 82 truck with a Weber DGEV and it was
reasonably powerful (ie, wasn't scared to pull on the interstate like I
am in my Jeep), but by no means fast.  My friends has twin Mikuni's,
but I I have no idea what the potential of that setup would be, as his
engine is in terrible tune.  
 
 How 'bout a rotary?


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 12:43:29 1993
Subject: TH200 ->TH350
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4568
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


	The TH200 in my 80' Monte Carlo is starting to get sluggish. I would 
like to replace it with a TH350. Any have any experience doing this. The car's
drivetrain is stock.

	Any comments or suggestions appriciated.

	Pete

----------
Posted by: emory!ll.mit.edu!psanders (Peter Sanders)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 12:49:53 1993
Subject: Re: engines
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4569
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


In article , hotrod@dixie.com writes...
> 
> 
>What are the weights of the big block engines?  
>In what state of completeness?
> 
>Ford 427
>Ford 428
>Ford 429
standard 429 - 720 lbs (I believe including accessories)  BOSS 429 - 685 lbs.
The weight difference is due to the cast iron vs. aluminum heads/intake on
the stock vs. BOSS.

Don't know the weight of the 427/428, but it'll probably be higher than
that of the 429, due to the full engine skirt (like the modular 4.6 L, the
427/428 had a full skirt, which supported cross bolted caps).

> 
>GM Mk V

Beats me.  I don't know nuttin about no GM's, except those damn GN's are
*fast*...
> 
>others

302 (Ford) ~460 lbs.
351C ~550 lbs. (~ means "approximately")
Both in the same configuration as the 429.
> 
> 
>What are power to weight ratios?
> 
>Are there particularly good choices for high power, streetability
>and light weight for a light road car?

The car I like is the one built by Ford's chief engineer (can't remember
his real title).  The car was hand-made, weighs about 1100 lbs., and is 
powered by a ninja 4 cylinder (the 118 H.P. motor).  Goes 0 to 60 in something
like 4.5 sec.  Guess if you like it, you'll have to build your own :-)
> 
>----------
>Posted by: Tom Binford 


Mike Jamison

"Scientific research consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, but
thinking what no one else has thought"

						-A. Szent-Gyorgyi

----------
Posted by: emory!ariel.lerc.nasa.gov!edwlt12 (Mike Jamison (ADF))
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 13:00:45 1993
Subject: Re: Triumph TR7 rods? 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4570
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>A couple of years ago I bought A Triumph TR7 sleeper rod. I ran accross
>it at an autowrecker, and bought it for $500 (cdn.) for a parts car. I
>was so impressed with its ability to scare the living daylights out of
>me when I drive it that now I want to build one for myself. The one I've
>got now has a '71 Buick 350 cid 4 bbl engine which 'barely' fits under
>the hood. This car also tends to be rather nose heavy. I am hoping to
>remedy this car's problems on the next one I build.
>
>My question is this:
>
>Does anyone know of an engine that fits well into a TR7?
>
>My new car is a '79 Triumph TR7 convertible made for US federal market
>with a Borg and Warner 3 speed Automatic.
>
>Someone recommended to me that I might try a Buick 3.5 litre V-6. Does
>anybody have any knowledge of such a combo?


I believe that combo is exactly what came stock in the TR8, which looks identical to the TR7. 
It was the Rover 3500 engine, which I think was license from Buick and done up in aluminum. 
Some one at woprk has one.  It is a quick little beast.

Mike

----------
Posted by: Mike Lee - Team Banana Racing 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 13:08:23 1993
Subject: Re: engines
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4571
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


In article , hotrod@dixie.com writes...
> 
> 
>What are the weights of the big block engines?  
>In what state of completeness?
> 
>Ford 427
>Ford 428
>Ford 429
standard 429 - 720 lbs (I believe including accessories)  BOSS 429 - 685 lbs.
The weight difference is due to the cast iron vs. aluminum heads/intake on
the stock vs. BOSS.

Don't know the weight of the 427/428, but it'll probably be higher than
that of the 429, due to the full engine skirt (like the modular 4.6 L, the
427/428 had a full skirt, which supported cross bolted caps).

> 
>GM Mk V

Beats me.  I don't know nuttin about no GM's, except those damn GN's are
*fast*...
> 
>others

302 (Ford) ~460 lbs.
351C ~550 lbs. (~ means "approximately")
Both in the same configuration as the 429.
> 
> 
>What are power to weight ratios?
> 
>Are there particularly good choices for high power, streetability
>and light weight for a light road car?

The car I like is the one built by Ford's chief engineer (can't remember
his real title).  The car was hand-made, weighs about 1100 lbs., and is 
powered by a ninja 4 cylinder (the 118 H.P. motor).  Goes 0 to 60 in something
like 4.5 sec.  Guess if you like it, you'll have to build your own :-)
> 
>----------
>Posted by: Tom Binford 


Mike Jamison

"Scientific research consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, but
thinking what no one else has thought"

						-A. Szent-Gyorgyi

----------
Posted by: emory!ariel.lerc.nasa.gov!edwlt12 (Mike Jamison (ADF))
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 13:13:40 1993
Subject: Re:  Triumph TR7 rods?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4572
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


 The Buick 3.8 (231) V-6 is a popular implant; I've seen ads for several.
I think the prime setup would be the Buick 215 aluminum V-8. This engine was
actually put in there for a year or two and the result was called a TR-8.
The aluminum motors are not especially easy to find, and the parts are liable
to be among the most expensive. A newer V-6 should be near the same weight
and make good power. 

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 13:18:29 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4573
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> either stick with the 3.42 while the hold together giving you a final
-> ratio of around 2.54 untill they hit the dust.  At that time you will
-> have a better idea and will know for your self which way to go but if
-> your like me you will probably opt for something in the mid 4's.

 Well, Chevy put a 2.29 in the back of some 1980s-era Malibu station
wagons, so I don't think a '75 454 would have much trouble with a 3200
pound car.  The only thing that would bother me is if the engine drops
off the bottom of the torque curve at that low RPM.  Most of my driving
with the car is either a couple of miles to the post office in the rain,
or long-distance trips (three hours each way) to a site I'm consulting
at.  ETs aren't any consideration.
                                                                      

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 13:24:02 1993
Subject: Re: flame?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4574
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


->  The anti-sub strap(s) are a critical part of belt
-> performance.  You couldn't have a "competition-grade" 3 point system
-> because it wouldn't have the anti-sub capability.

 Whether the sub straps would be useful depends more on seating position
than anything else.  Sub straps also require chopping into your seat,
with the requisite mods to any internal bracing or springing, and
upholstery work.  That's a lot of trouble and expense for a street
vehicle.  From my own autocross days, I don't feel the sub straps were
worth much anyway.  Of course, my seating position is as close to bolt
upright as the seat will allow, so there's not really anywhere to go
that a sub strap would prevent.  I had read an old article about some
NACA (not NASA) studies on kinesthetics on pilots, and how they had
found the pilots were better able to control their craft if they were
seated with the torso vertical rather than the conventional raked-back
position.  (oddly, modern combat craft seem to have gone to extremes the
other way)  Anyway, it shaved a couple of seconds off my lap times, and
I'm not as prone to being carsick.


-> Note that
-> significant abdominal injuries often occur even where the occupants
-> were wearing their seatbelts.

 True.  For Detroit stupid straps.  For properly installed harness with
double shoulder straps, if you hit something hard enough for abdominal
injuries, said injuries would probably be the least of your worries.


-> [Well let me restate this a bit clearer.  Is there a place one can
-> get a 3 point harness or a 5 point that does not involve 5 separate
-> straps that is made of the same grade materials as a regular harness?
-> JGD]

 You mean something where the shoulder belts are attached to the lap
belts, and you just attach the lap belts together, much like a
conventional 3-point rig, only with an extra belt on the right?
(assuming you don't have one of the right hand drive Z-cars, that is)

 Why not simply order a set of appropriate belts from TRW, Deist,
Simpson, or who-hit-John  (err... sorry...) and have the shoulder belts
attached to the lap belts?  It should only take a little machine work
for the bracketry, or you could have any place that repairs parachute
harness sew them together.

 If you do this, have the shop sew some small loops on top in the area
where the straps go over your shoulder.  Many's the time I wished I
could attach some bungee cords or something to hold them up, rather than
trying to twist around and snake my arms through the belts, which tend
to be rather diabolic when you're in a hurry.


 One thing I always wanted to try when autocrossing was a strap wrapping
around my upper body, anchored to the door, which would keep me from
sliding to the right during left turns.  The Capri's seats were quite
flat, with narrow backs.  I liked them that way since they let me move
around a bit on long trips, and they were out of the way of my elbows
when autocrossing.  Unfortunately, I never figured out what to do to
keep my left elbow from getting tangled in the strap.
                                                                             

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 13:35:05 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4575
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu



-> clean exhaust gas :-)  Actually with good cats, it's easier just to
-> meet the standard.  JGD]

 How you gonna do that with a 245 degree @ .050 cam and a non-computer
carburetor?  How much raw gas can these convertors handle, anyway?

[Since that setup would never pass anyway, kinda beside the point.  But
not completely.  There is a company called Car Sounds Exhaust Systems
that makes a retrofit kit for such installations.  consists of 1 or 2 
cats, a lambda sensor, a controller and an air valve.  The valve 
admits air under the carb and is controlled by the controller to 
keep things at stoich during idle and cruise.

This thing ain't gonna meet 1993 standards but it will take any reasonable
street engine and make it pass 70s or 80s specs.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 14:40:16 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4576
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> If you are looking at the theory that long stroke means low end
-> torque and short stroke means rpm's you could be correct I'm not sure
-> what Ford's stroke is compared to a GM stroke on a 302/305.  But what
-> I was looking at was the basic flow characteristics and cam designs
-> on stock engines that create more bottom end torque on Ford engines
-> and More top end Horsepower on Chevy engine.

 302 Ford:  4.0  x 3.0,   5.09 rod

 302 Chev:  4.0  x 3.0,   5.7  rod
 305 Chev:  3.72 x 3.48   5.7  rod
 307 Chev:  3.87 x 3.25   5.7  rod

 Except for the '50s-'early-'60s 302 CID "High Torque 283" truck motors,
the only Chevy 302 was the Z-28, which was definitely not a low-RPM
motor.  The 305 Chevy is pretty well known as a low RPM stump puller
though.  The 307 Chevy was only produced in low compression grandma
configurations, and although GM supposedly made a few four barrel 307s,
I've never seen one.

 The Windsor Ford's smallish ports and valves and short rods move the
torque numbers low in the RPM band, but in my experience stock two
barrel 302 Fords love to rev.  Equivalent 305 Chevys like to go to sleep
over 4000 RPM.

 If you'd like to compare equivalent engines, it'd be fair to compare
the 289 Hipo vs. the Z-28 302, or the late 5.0 GT against the 305 Tuned
Port.  There's little to choose from between the 271-HP Hipo and the
290-HP Z-28; the difference is power is pretty well equivalent to the
difference in displacement.  For the later motors you'll find the Ford
makes its power quite a bit further up in the RPM band than the Chevy;
that's not a characteristic of a "torque" motor.
                                                                                                                       

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 14:47:35 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4577
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> >Right, I wish I could use the '63 Buick 215 V8 I have, but swapping
> >rules for emission controlled vehicles being what they are..., and the
> >prospects of having a custom 1:1 reversing transmission built, not to
> >mention the weight and size of the Toro based powertrain, [and merely
> >3 speeds,] are discouraging.
> > 
> You could reverse the rotation of the 215.  Reversing kits do exist
> (camshafts, distributor gears etc)  but they are tough to find 'cause 
> nobody has made them in decades.  I have seen a few people advertising 
> reversing kits for sale in the classifieds of the Corvair club magazine.

Thanks for the input Steve.  I considered this except I doubt the
automatic trans (TH325C) we were discussing would take kindly to the
reverse rotation.  It seems to me the pump would have to be replaced
with a custom unit (unless the supply and outlet plumbing could be
rerouted), and the bands wouldn't have nearly the grip they should.
Then there is the torque converter, which probably won't work at all
running the other way.

Which Corvair periodical(s) do you read?  I used to get CORSA, and did see
many of the old goodies like you mentioned for sale on occasion.

...
> ... and suspension link attachments, and speedo drive.  With a little
> work a 66-69 transmision can be mated to a 61-64 and 65 differential
> case.  However for v-8 power, the four spider gear kit should
> should be installed in the differential to strengthen it, as I've
> already blown up two differentials in my Corvair.

How have the diffs failed?  I only had trouble when I tried to adjust
the backlash myself without the right tools.  The second '66 transaxle
I had in my Kelmark 'vair held up quite well after a mechanic with the
right tools adjusted it for me.  Of course, I couldn't quite speed
shift with the 8 foot shift linkage, and that might have something to
the longevity.

> Steve Cole
> 
> '66 Corvair convertible
> '65 turbocharged autocrosser (in construction)
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!zeus.tamu.edu!smc9782 (DEAD DOG)
-- 
Mark Walker			| I daydream about fusing two Buick 	
mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu.	| V6s into a V12 and stuffing it into a	
505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)	| chopped 'n dropped '53 Buick Super...	
Albuquerque, NM			| 	Am I sick, or what?		

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 14:52:35 1993
Subject: 200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4578
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

                          SUBJECT:  200-4R
Well, here's my experience with the 200-4R in my Buick GN.  The car is a low
twelve (hopefully high 11 sec. car this year) that is completely streetable. 
It has shown 365 hp at the rear wheels on the chassis dyno (but the tires were
slipping, so I estimate maybe 375+ hp).

The car has in excess of 300 runs on it (closer to 400) and 35000 miles of
street driving.  The tranny was recently sent to a local rebuilder (a
moonlighting GM technician) to be freshened up, since I noticed some slippage
at the track on the top end.  The MPH had fallen off about 2 mph and the E.T.
had risen about .2 seconds.

The tranny felt fine on the street, but this is what we found.  My tranny guy
showed me the post mortem ... we looked at the following:

1.  The drum ... he sanded it and it looks ok, but I had him put in a new one
anyway.  This is a steel unit, so it can't be turned on a lathe, so I was
concerned about roundness.  He said it was badly discolored before he sanded it
... it indicated hot spots from a slipping 1-2 band.

2.  1-2 band was pretty shot ... lots of wear and scoring.  Evidence it was
burned.  Replaced it with a heavy duty unit that came in the Raybestos rebuild
kit.

3.  Input shaft splines were the shocker.  The splines were about half worn
away.  There was galled metal between the splines ... indicates some pretty
hefty torque was pounding on the shaft.  We replaced it with a hardened shaft.

4.  Original 7 vane pump looked brand new ... casing was in excellent shape. 
Replaced it with the 10 vane pump for added volume and pressure stability.

5.  2-3 clutches and steels showed evidence of hot spots and slippage.  Not
terrible, but the new steels and clutches were installed.  The new clutches are
semimetallic and should provide more "grip" than the stock ones.  Added extra
clutches to firm up this shift a little.

6. 3-4 clutches (only 2 of these!) looked pretty good.  Kind of surprising,
given that for about 3 years the car was allowed to shift into 4th @ 105 mph in
the 1/4.  I would have thought they might really show wear, given the load ...
but they looked pretty good!

7.  Examined the converter splines and they also showed a little nicking to
match in the input shaft splines ... not bad, but basically makes the old
converter worthless since a new one from GM is only $135.  I'm putting a new
one in and sending the old one back as a core.

Overall, my guy said he liked the condition of the tranny, given the fact that
400 runs were made on it.  Nothing was fried or showed excessive heat damage. 
Everything was very clean and tight and all he had to do is put in the
performance parts.  He said that's the time to get a tranny gone through, not
after it's starting to show real problems... he was impressed that I hadn't
noticed anything on the street, but only at the track under higher boost
levels.  Very impressed with the way the tranny has held up ... he attributed
part of the longevity to the fact that a good tranny oil cooler (I use the B &
M super cooler) in series with the in-radiator tranny oil cooler has been used
since the car was a year old.

Anyway, so first hand experience with the 200-4R found behind the Turbo Regals
... seem to be pretty reliable units.

--- Ken Mosher
--- Buick Grand National: Hairdryers and Horsepower!

----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 14:59:21 1993
Subject: Re: MSD7 GIF's are now available.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4579
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu




>I have John's MSD wave form GIFs in place on my ftp site for those interested.

	Where is your ftp site?

>Is anyone interested in a Hotrod list car GIF show?
>I created a 'contest' directory just in case anyone wants to see
>what everyone else is running.

	Yes! Could you give me the details?

	Thanks

	Pete Sanders

----------
Posted by: emory!ll.mit.edu!psanders (Peter Sanders)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 15:03:14 1993
Subject: Where are those auto-related pictures (.gif)s anyway?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4580
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


I need a reminder to where the auto picture file repository is.

[ (beats head against wall)  Ah, that feels better now.  EVERY 
message posted to this list has in its header, pointers to the archives.
Take a peak at X-gifs-to, X-gifs-from and X-archives.  JGD]

Thanks
|////////////////////////////////////////////////|
| Pete Paraska       (paraska@oasys.dt.navy.mil) |
| David Taylor Model Basin, CARDEROCKDIV         |
|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!paraska (Pete Paraska)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 16:40:33 1993
Subject: Re: Holley Vac Sec Spring mods
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4581
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


In article , (Eric Youngblood) writes: 
|> These numbers are averages of three runs each.  I am going to get the two
|> lighter springs (short yellow & white) and test them as well.  

Well I put the lightest spring available (white) in the kit 20-13 and made
three runs. The results: (average, under same temperature & weather conditions)

|> spring   15'   30'   60'  0-30mph 0-60mph  1/8mi
|> ------------------------------------------------ 
|> plain    1.43  1.93  2.81  2.91    6.12    9.72     
|> purple   1.40  1.92  2.78  2.88    6.05    9.63
|> yellow   1.38  1.87  2.73  2.78    5.93    9.56

   white    1.34  1.83  2.67  2.72    5.88    9.52

Using the lightest (white) causes the most noticable surge in power. The surge
comes earlier which may explain why it 'feels' like the engine experiences a
bog prior to the power surge.  I am kind of baffled by the results however,
accoring to the data sheet that comes w/ the spring kit, the yellow spring begins
to open the secondaries around 1410 rpm (on a 402 cid) and achieves full open
at 4960 rpm.  I am running a 406 cid with the white (read : lighter than yellow)
spring, according to my calculations my engine would have to turn 6350 rpm
before it generates airflow = 650cfm (assuming 87% VE) (Holley 650 carb)

Can anyone explain the 'real-world' engine air flow requirement vs 'theoretical'?
I have heard that airflow does not take into account the pressure drop through
the carb, and that a larger carb experiences less drop, thus is more efficeint.
Anybody got the scoop?

$0.02

Ericy

      *---------------------------------+---------------------------*
      | Eric Youngblood                                             |
      | Bell-Northern Research    _                                 |
      | Richardson, Texas 75082 _| ~-                               |
      |                         \,  _}                              |
      |                           \(    +---------------------------|
      |                                 |   Peon w/o Email privs    |
      *---------------------------------+---------------------------*

----------
Posted by: (Eric Youngblood)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 16:46:37 1993
Subject: Re: flame?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4582
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu



>            (oddly, modern combat craft seem to have gone to extremes the
> other way)  

	I believe this is done to help prevent blackouts due to forces causing
blood flow away from the head during hard turns.  As would happen if you were
bolt upright in a fast turning aircraft.

--
Tracy J. Evans
Hewlett-Packard
1-503-750-3837

----------
Posted by: Tracy J. Evans 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 17:40:36 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4583
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


->   I'm planning on adding a built 200-4R to my 71 Cutlass this
-> summer.   Gotta have OD, and I can't get my hands on a 6 speed vette
-> tranny.  (How would I hook it to a Olds motor anyway?!?!?!)

 Is the 200 an overdrive?  Is there more than one version of the 200?


->    Anyone have a complete list of gear ratios for GM auto trannies?

 From Dave's Infamous Data File:  (doesn't anyone else packrat junk like
this????  Am I some kind of flake?  Don't answer...)

Automatics
GM
code    trans   1st     2nd     3rd     4th     R        note
        T350    2.52    1.52    1.00    na     1.93
M35     PG      1.90            na      na          small and big block
                                                    different
        T400    2.48                    na

alum PG intro 1962 weighs 150 lbs discontinued 1973
1.82 first for light duty
1.76 V8 327CID and larger

trans         face to end     face to     mount base    splines
              of yoke         mount base  hole spacing
PG          25.75 or 28.75      20.75           3.75    27
T200            28.24           20.5            3.75    27
T250,350        28.24           20.5            3.75    27
T400            28.93           26.83     3.75 or 4.25  27(some)
32(most)
T700            31.24           22.25           3.75    27

'69-'70 T350 had drain plug in oil pan. Factory replacement pans do not
have the plug.

'76-'82 Corvette L82 T350 convertor stall speed 1800 RPM

Turbo 400 discontinued in 1977 passenger cars, still in use for trucks
all T400 through 1970 had short tailshaft

1971 up large cars had "long" tailshaft 8 or 9 inches longer than early
type

long, short, large, and small diameter yokes were used. Match yoke!

1978 trucks with T400 had optional deep sump trans pan, 2 quart extra
capacity

8629524 pan (no drain hole)
8629523 spacer
8629525 bolt
8529526 pipe

Hydra-Matic 4 speed (intro in 1939)
Cad-Olds 3.97, 2.55, 1.55, 1.00
late 60s Olds 3.51, 2.93, 1.57, 1.00
most others 3.32, 2.93, 1.56, 1.00

Hydra-Matic 3 speed (intro in 1961) (not T350)
most 2.97, 1.56, 1.00
some Cad 2.48, 1.48, 1.00, R2.08
                                                                                                                   

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 17:46:47 1993
Subject: Triumph TR7 rods?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4584
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> me when I drive it that now I want to build one for myself. The one
-> I've got now has a '71 Buick 350 cid 4 bbl engine which 'barely' fits
-> underthe hood. remedy this car's problems on the next one I build.

 I've seen a couple of Buick V6 powered TR7s.  Nice clean swap, since
the car was available with the Rover 3500, which was actually a Buick
215 V8.  Unfortunately the Rover/Buick has a different bellhousing bolt
pattern, so you have to swap trans and all.


-> Does anyone know of an engine that fits well into a TR7?

 The 231 or 242 V6 will bolt right up to your existing transmission and
motor mounts, is 125 pounds lighter, and the remaining weight is further
back.  It'd probably be better to go the V6 route than to try to build
the 350.  If you shop around you can find one of the turbocharged V6s.
They're common enough there's no particular price penalty.  You can get
bad serious power from a turbo Buick, as some of the Buick fans on the
list will probably attest.


 Actually, unless the handling really bugs you, I'd just leave the 350
in their until it gasps its last, and put my money into interior, paint,
wheels/tires, and suspension work, while building the V6 a piece at a
time in the garage.
                                                                                                                  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 17:52:26 1993
Subject: Re: Triumph TR7 rods?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4585
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> How 'bout a rotary?

 The Mazda rotaries are *very* wide, and carry the width down low,
causing interference in darned near everything.  They're also plenty
heavy; when we yanked the 12A out of a friend's RX7 and dropped in a
Ford 2000, the car sat up on the top bump stops!  The 2000 isn't a
lightweight either.

 Parts are also super-premium priced for the rotary, and you're stuck
with Mazda's automatic, which is OK as far as I know, of their manual,
which is pathetically weak.  The input shafts have a havit of snapping
right off on cars that are autocrossed heavily, at least Mark I cars.
                                                                                                  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 17:58:35 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4586
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> However for and v-8 power, the four spider gear kit should should be
-> installed in the differential to strengthen it, as I've already blown
-> up two differentias in my Corvair.

 The dune buggy people claim a properly-prepped Bug box is both cheaper
and stronger than the Corvair.  Whether true or not, they're certainly
easier to find!
                                                                                        

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 18:03:08 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4587
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu



> Does anyone know the actual gear ratios for GM transmissions?
>      
> 
>                      -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
>                   --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  
> 

GM Muncie (M-21, M-22)          2.20    1.64    1.28    1.00
GM Muncie (M-20)                2.52    1.88    1.46    1.00
GM Powerglide (327 cid up)      1.72    1.00
GM Powerglide (307 cid smaller) 1.82    1.00
GM Turbo Hydra-Matic 350        2.52    1.52    1.00
GM Turbo Hydra-Matic 400        2.48    1.48    1.00
GM Turbo Hydra-Matic 200-R4     2.74    1.57    1.00    0.67
GM Turbo Hydra-Matic 700-R4     3.06    1.62    1.00    0.70

There they are..  Good luck.

----------
Posted by: emory!ucsvax.ucs.umass.edu!CONS090
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 18:09:52 1993
Subject: Re: Triumph TR7 rods? 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4588
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I answered this in private mail, but since the discussion seems to be
going on on the list, I'll say something here, too.

The TR8 is a TR7 with the Rover/Buick 3.5 liter V8 and uprated
components. This is a very quick little machine, potent in both SCCA
IT-class racing and on the drag strip. There were only about 3000 TR8s
made, so they're kinda collectable and kinda expensive. Lots of people
find unloved TR7s and drop an 8 in, since the engines are fairly common
(if you're interested in doing this, using a real Buick engine is
useful, since the ancillaries are easier to find at your favorite parts store).

The V6 conversoin is not uncommon; the engine is lighter and provides
about as much power. There's a company that does them as well as
dropping 13B rotaries in; unfortunately, I can't find my notes with the name.

The person you probably want to talk to is Ted Schumacher. Ted has been
racing Triupmhs for more than 30 years; he was one of the main
fabrication subcontractors for the two Triumph teams (Group 44 on the
east coast, Kastner's group on the west). He's actively promoting TR8s
these days, and loves to talk about them. He should be able to tell you
what will work and what won't, and what the tradeoffs are. 

Name:        TSI Automotive
Company:     Ted Schumacher
Address:     404 Basinger Road
             Pandora, OH 45877
Phone:       (800) 543-6648
             (419) 384-3022
             (419) 384-3272 FAX

----------
Posted by: "Chris Kent Kantarjiev" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 22 18:17:11 1993
Subject: msd gifs
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4589
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I downloaded the msd7-#.GIF's and they are not of gif format!!!
someone goofed up something, somewhere! Could they be resent?
I'd really like to see these graphs!
                                         Thanks.


                                               Mark F.

[I checked the files that I sent to the archive and they are in fact
GIFs.  Generated with Aldus PhotoShop on a PC.  The info command lists
them as follows:

File:		MSD7-1.GIF
Image type:  B&W (one bit)
Size:		1274 X 1077
Resolution:	120 DPI

I've tried reading the files with PhotoShop, CorelDraw, and imported
a copy into FrameMaker.  I then tried to view the files with WinGif 4.1
and vuimage 3.30.  Both are sharware.  Neither worked.  Vuimage 
read the files but chopped off the bottom.  I suspect this has to do
with it being crippleware but I'm not sure.  WinGif displayed garbage.
Not surprising because I've had problems with other GIF files.  I don't
have any other viewers.

Mark, tell me what GIF viewer you're using.  Not that I can do anything
about it but I'm curious.  If you're on a big endian machine, could you
have a byte ordering problem?  Does your viewer have a switch for that?

Could someone else grab the files and give them a look to make sure
nothing got corrupted in transit?

Larger question.  How to do images we all can use.  I'm quite fond of 
uncompressed TIFFs but there does not seem to be much non-commercial
software for TIFFs.  I'm perplexed.

Publishing's Cardinal Rule:  There are no compatability problems with paper.
:-)    JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!resdgs1.er.usgs.gov!mfugazzo (Mark Fugazzotto)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 00:23:51 1993
Subject: Re: Triumph TR7 rods?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4590
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

        Reply to:   RE>Triumph TR7 rods?
[... If you shop around you can find one of the turbocharged V6s.
They're common enough there's no particular price penalty.  You can get
bad serious power from a turbo Buick, as some of the Buick fans on the
list will probably attest....]

However, I'd kind of shy away from the carbed "blow through" turbo motors and
keep an eye out for the '84 and later FI turbo V6s.  The carbed motors were OK,
if properly maintained ... just OK, not teriffic.  I've seen plenty of pretty
"toasted" carbed V6s when the power enrichment circuit on the carb is on the
fritz ... the car leans out under boost and BOOOOM ... no more pistons/rings
(or only a head gasket, if you're lucky).  The motor was put in alot of fairly
run-of-the-mill cars (remember that ugly late 70's Century with hatchback ...
ugggghhh!) that didn't have the best of care because of the "What's a turbo?"
John Q. Public owners.

The '84s on up had much more sophisticated electronics that save most of these
people from themselves (although I've seen a few sad cases).

More directly to the point, the plumbing for the turbo (and intercooler, if you
get an '86/'87) might be a challenge under that low wedge hood line.  The
'84-'85 had the turbo mounted back by the firewall, but the '86-'87 moved the
turbo out to the front of the passenger's side header.

Anyway, my $0.02.

Ken Mosher
Buick GN: "... if Darth Vader drove a Buick ..."


----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 10:48:46 1993
Subject: Lucas disk injectors sought
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4591
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I'm looking to borrow for a week or so a Lucas-style Disk valve injector.
Any flow capacity is fine.  I'm looking for it for the purpose of testing
and collecting data on my flow bench.

Any help greatly appreciated.
John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 10:55:25 1993
Subject: TH200 ->TH350
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4592
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


->      The TH200 in my 80' Monte Carlo is starting to get sluggish. I
-> would like to replace it with a TH350. Any have any experience doing
-> this. The car's drivetrain is stock.

 In this case, I'd just have the thing rebuilt.  13 years isn't an
unreasonably short lifespan, particularly considering the 200's poor
reputation.  I can't see the old driveshaft chop/crossmember move/
shifter linkage weld/whatever routine on a stocker.
          

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 14:24:26 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4593
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Newsgroups: alt.hotrod,wiz.hotrod
Path: cwis!mgolden
From: mgolden@cwis.unomaha.edu (Brian Golden)
Subject: Re: TH200 ->TH350
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@news.unomaha.edu (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: 
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 10:48:52 GMT
Lines: 27

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:


>->      The TH200 in my 80' Monte Carlo is starting to get sluggish. I
>-> would like to replace it with a TH350. Any have any experience doing
>-> this. The car's drivetrain is stock.

> In this case, I'd just have the thing rebuilt.  13 years isn't an
>unreasonably short lifespan, particularly considering the 200's poor
>reputation.  I can't see the old driveshaft chop/crossmember move/
>shifter linkage weld/whatever routine on a stocker.

NOT!!!  Since this car originally came with the TH350 tranny, everything
will just bolt right up... At least it should... Check with someone
at your local junkyard.. They should know.  The 200 and 350 are the
same length (you will need a TH350 short shaft), and everything
else on the case is basically the same... Just make sure that if it
is a Chevy engine, that you get a Chevy tranny... The Buick/Olds/Pontiac
trannys have a different bolt pattern.  I am doing this same swap on my
'79 Regal... I originally got a Chevy 350 tranny, but I found out that
it wouldn't bolt onto the 231, so I got a 350 for it too!  (I was going
to put a 350 in it anyway, I just stepped up the process...)  It's a
lot easier to put everything together outside the car anyway!
--
                                 - Mike Golden -
                            mgolden@cwis.unomaha.edu
                        "Keep honking... I'm reloading."

----------
Posted by: emory!dns.unomaha.edu!news (UNO Network News Server)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 14:34:16 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4594
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 
> Dave Williams asks
> -> my prior reply
> 
> -> either stick with the 3.42 while the hold together giving you a final
> -> ratio of around 2.54 untill they hit the dust.  At that time you will
> -> have a better idea and will know for your self which way to go but if
> -> your like me you will probably opt for something in the mid 4's.
> 
>  Well, Chevy put a 2.29 in the back of some 1980s-era Malibu station
> wagons, so I don't think a '75 454 would have much trouble with a 3200
> pound car.  The only thing that would bother me is if the engine drops
> off the bottom of the torque curve at that low RPM.  Most of my driving
> with the car is either a couple of miles to the post office in the rain,
> or long-distance trips (three hours each way) to a site I'm consulting
> at.  ETs aren't any consideration.
>                                                                       
Well I did some calculations.  With 245/70R15 tires you need to rotate
them 645 times a minute to travel 55 mph.  With the 700r4 transmission
and 3.42 gears that means the engine needs to be able to run at 2,206
rpms in high and 1,544 in overdrive.  Believe me the 454 will not be sweeting
at that rpm range.

Look at the new trucks with that engine set for max load capability.  With 
the same tires and 4.56 gears they are buzzing at 2,941 rpms in high and
2,059 in overdrive.  Sure the 454 is a torque motor but it can still crank
5,000 rpms which gives it 133 miles per hour in overdrive. 

Stick with your 3.42 for now and save the cash.  If you later find you want
more bottom end torque move upward and if you need morte economy then look
for 3.08 or 2.73 axles.  But if you wanted economy wouldn't you have picked
a more economical engine (250,305, or 350)?



dennis

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 14:39:58 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4595
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 > 
> 
> -> If you are looking at the theory that long stroke means low end
> -> torque and short stroke means rpm's you could be correct I'm not sure
> -> what Ford's stroke is compared to a GM stroke on a 302/305.  But what
> -> I was looking at was the basic flow characteristics and cam designs
> -> on stock engines that create more bottom end torque on Ford engines
> -> and More top end Horsepower on Chevy engine.
> 
>  302 Ford:  4.0  x 3.0,   5.09 rod
> 
>  302 Chev:  4.0  x 3.0,   5.7  rod
>  305 Chev:  3.72 x 3.48   5.7  rod
>  307 Chev:  3.87 x 3.25   5.7  rod

dont forget:
	265 Chev 3.50 x 3.0
        283 Chev 3.75 x 3.0       
	327 Chev 4.0 x 3.27
	350 Chev 4.0 x 3.50

	289 FORD   ??????????
	350 Widnsor  ????????
	350 Clevland ????????
> 
>  Except for the '50s-'early-'60s 302 CID "High Torque 283" truck motors,
> the only Chevy 302 was the Z-28, which was definitely not a low-RPM
> motor.  The 305 Chevy is pretty well known as a low RPM stump puller
> though.  The 307 Chevy was only produced in low compression grandma
> configurations, and although GM supposedly made a few four barrel 307s,
> I've never seen one.
> 
>  The Windsor Ford's smallish ports and valves and short rods move the
> torque numbers low in the RPM band, but in my experience stock two
> barrel 302 Fords love to rev.  Equivalent 305 Chevys like to go to sleep
> over 4000 RPM.

Chevey 305's never were great racing motors.  The 302 design really came from
the old hotroders of my day when we bored out 283's to 301 and used the
fuely heads on. 7,000 rpm's no sweat.  Then the 327 from 1960 on was
another engine that loved RPM's.  The 350 were a compromise type motor
since they couldn't really bore that block out any more.
> 
>  If you'd like to compare equivalent engines, it'd be fair to compare
> the 289 Hipo vs. the Z-28 302, or the late 5.0 GT against the 305 Tuned
> Port.  There's little to choose from between the 271-HP Hipo and the
> 290-HP Z-28; the difference is power is pretty well equivalent to the
> difference in displacement.  For the later motors you'll find the Ford
> makes its power quite a bit further up in the RPM band than the Chevy;
> that's not a characteristic of a "torque" motor.

Well my buddy has a 454 Chevelle that has no problems runnig through the traps
at 8,000 plus rpm's with his 5.57 gears so I wouldn't say that engine is all
torque.  But remember that when the smog laws hit nobody had performance any 
more loke in the 60's and early 70's.
>                                                                               
Hey let's not turn this into a chevy verus ford flame war.  Both are better 
manufactures then some of the japanesse stuff selling today.  Both have there
good points and there bad points.

dennis

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 14:45:42 1993
Subject: 383 TPI Injector needs
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4596
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


What is the best way to modify the fuel injection system to accomodate
a 383 under the stock 350 TPI injection setup??  Since displacement is
10% bigger, will 10% larger (pounds per hour) injectors suffice?
Is there enough latitude in the stock system to compensate?
Will increasing the fuel pressure some amount suffice?  If so, how much?
Has anyone tried this?  This would be for a speed density '90 Vette TPI
setup.  Thanks.

Ned Wilmarth

----------
Posted by: emory!digi.lonestar.org!leonis!NWILMART (NED)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 14:51:11 1993
Subject: rotary
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4597
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

A rotary is NOT a heavy engine. I weigh 160 lbs and can pick one up (with
difficulty) and move it across a room without hurting my back. It was
mentioned that the mazda automatic is tough and the five speed weak - not
true. I know of someone who broke his mazda automatic several times before
resplacing it with a five speed, which has never broken. The local street
racers use stock mazda 5 speeds with soft tires and 12000 rpm launch, and
rarely break them. Anyway, you don't want an automatic with a rotary
. The guy who had the automatic was running 14.8 at 102 mph due to
lack of low end torque to launch. After changing to the 5 speed, he
ran again. On narrow 165 80 13 tires, he ran 13.7 at 103. As you can see,
rotaries do not like automatics. As far as cost, their not that bad.
Start with a junkyard 12A, do some portwork, lock the rotors, change
to race apex seals, replace any worn parts, etc. I completely rebuilt
one and modified it for performance for about $600. As far as being too
wide, I don't see where you are coming from. You will be very hard pressed
to find a small engine that has the horsepower, reliability, durablility,
ability to run camel piss gas without complaining, etc, of the 12A.

----------
Posted by: James D Rosemary 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 15:06:19 1993
Subject: Safety belts
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4598
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

On Mar 22, Dave Williams wrote:

>  Whether the sub straps would be useful depends more on seating position
> than anything else.  Sub straps also require chopping into your seat,
> with the requisite mods to any internal bracing or springing, and
> upholstery work.  

Well, sort of. I hate to get into this, but I feel that I have to
anyway as the token cornerworker/driver on the list.

The sub strap's real purpose has nothing to do with seating position.
Its only purpose is to keep the buckle down on your pelvis (which has
enough structure to take the brunt of an impact), instead of allowing
the shoulder belts to pull it up onto the unprotected abdominal
muscles and soft tissues beneath. Its primary purpose is _not_ to stop
you sliding out under the belts in an impact by snagging you by the
'nads, as most people think. The nasty thing is that the SCCA GCRs
specify belt mountings that don't do this buckle location very well,
so that people have slack in the sub strap- and the buckle still gets
hiked up onto their solar plexus. Useless. That's why most folks don't
care for sub straps- they don't understand them, and they've driven
cars with bad installations.

This can lead to the drivers leaving their shoulder belts slack, which
means they peg the wheel with their chin when they meet Mr. Tirewall.
Or, alternatively, they run the shoulder belts tight, and end up with
"Simpson" tattooed on their livers. Internal injuries still happen
despite all the efforts to the contrary- I've packed enough drivers
into ambulances over my years as a flagger to know. And it's a damned
shame, and it's almost totally preventable.

So in my track car, I use 6-point belts, and run the twin sub straps
_aft_ to the lap belt mount points. I still use my unmodified stock
seats, so I feed the sub strap up through the joint between back and
bottom (NO modification required), and sit on it. In this position, it
does an excellent job of keeping the buckle down right over my pelvis
where it belongs, and guarantees that I can pull the shoulder belts
tight enough to keep my face off the windshield if I make the Big
Mistake. I run the belts _tight_, which is a leftover from my days
driving an F2000 car where _breathing_ was optional while belted in.

There are a lot of SCCA legal, well prepped race cars out there with
unsafe belt installations. Primarily because people just slavishly
follow the rules, instead of thinking about exactly what the belts are
trying to do for them. 

Hope that this clarifies things a bit, and doesn't add fuel to the
flames. Think carefully about what your belts are actually trying to
do for you. The aircraft analogy breaks down a bit, because 100G
decelerations are considered bad form in aircraft (well, excepting
possibly naval aviation!), but are an all-too-common occurrence in
motorsport... Use a sub strap, install it well, and save your spleen.

-skod

--
Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware
expatriate SCCA New England Region Flagging/Communications worker
(and sometimes driver, of anything that turns both right and left,
and can pass tech...) Return Path : skod@sun.COM

----------
Posted by: emory!Eng.Sun.COM!Scott.Griffith (Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Tue Mar 23 15:48:57 1993
Subject: Transmissions....
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4599
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Dave sez:
> From Dave's Infamous Data File:  (doesn't anyone else packrat junk like
>this????  Am I some kind of flake?  Don't answer...)

Don't worry Dave, I won't tell anyone!

>'69-'70 T350 had drain plug in oil pan. Factory replacement pans do not
>have the plug.

hmmm... I have an original '72 Chevy T350 that has a drain plug...

>'76-'82 Corvette L82 T350 convertor stall speed 1800 RPM
>
>Turbo 400 discontinued in 1977 passenger cars, still in use for trucks
>all T400 through 1970 had short tailshaft

Hmmm...  I also had a stock '69 Impala 396-T400 that had the
"long" tailshaft...  (For you BBC buffs, that was the only big block
chevy in a passenger car with a 2-barrel carburetor!)

Hope this helps!
JC.  jca@fibercom.com


                                                                                

----------
Posted by: emory!fibercom.com!norge!jca (James "Dude" Akers)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 16:41:52 1993
Subject: SB chevy question
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4600
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


I would like to kmow the cc's of my 1967 210hp 327 Camaro engine.
When I had them off last I didn't check. They are 1.94" intake
1.60" exhaust valves. I am using TRW 11.5-1 pistons and want the
true compression. I assume (ass out of you and me) thats its
around 10.25-1 bucause it runs on 93 octane pump gas.

Frank

----------
Posted by: emory!OAS.PSU.EDU!FBS3     (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 18:39:14 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4601
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.hotrod
Path: billy.mlb.semi.harris.com!jws
From: jws@billy.mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)
Subject: Re: Cutting Fluids
References: <1ol7rrINN8s1@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> <1993Mar22.223405.11292@sequent.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 18:01:55 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: billy.mlb.semi.harris.com
Organization: Harris Semiconductor, Melbourne FL
Sender: news@mlb.semi.harris.com
Message-ID: <1993Mar23.180155.23475@mlb.semi.harris.com>

 I found 1,1,1 trichloroethane in quart cans at Home Depot this weekend.
It's labeled "Cleaning Solvent" and is being sold as (get this)
an environmentally friendly substitute for carbon tetrachloride.

 I guess I've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe we should bill our 
hot rods as "environmentally friendly coal-fired locomotive substitutes";
maybe the EPA would buy it... and I can go back to killing weeds along the
fence with my used motor oil/environmentally friendly replacement for
lead sulphate. Amazing how things work out when you understand NewSpeak....
-- 
##########################################################################
#Irresponsible rantings of the author alone. Any resemblance to persons  #
#living or dead then yer bummin. May cause drowsiness. Alcohol may inten-#
#sify this effect. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Billy!#

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!news
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 18:43:45 1993
Subject: Chemicals to deal with Rust?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4602
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


I'm hoping some of you can share your experiences with the newer chemicals
used to deal with rust.  I have an '83 Capri that I'm about to install a
roll cage in.  I have found a notable bit of rust sandwiched between the
front sub-frame and the floorpan.  I'm going to weld in a new section of
floor pan in the trouble area - that is rather easy.  The rust on the
sub-frame is another matter.   I'm welding the cage foot plates in this
area, and I want it to be as strong as possible (and slow the progression
of further rust).

Obviously, I'll get rid of as much of the rusted material as possible,
but I know I can't completely eliminate it.  Suggestions on selecting one
of the various chemicals that "convert" the rust would be appreciated, as
well as any other suggestions.  Are they all about the same?

Please mail me directly and I will summarize (Email traffic precludes me
from subscribing to this list :-(

Thanks!

  Brian


---
bkelley@pms001.pms.ford.com
Not speaking for Ford.

----------
Posted by: emory!pms001.pms.ford.com!bkelley ( Brian Kelley )
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 18:48:55 1993
Subject: MicroDynamics Ignition control?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4603
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Anyone have experience with these guys? They have a very slick looking
rev limiter, but say that it won't work with a CD ignition (like MSD).
Instead, they are pushing their own ignition control, which they call
"exponential discharge" - "has a fast rise-time output that works with
the coil, not against it".

Before I jump into unknown waters here, I'd like to hear from anyone
that has info on the boxes. Thanks.

[You know, there's a whole discipline called electrical engineering
that has a formally defined and widely recognized vocabulary for
describing electrical devices and phenomena.  Any company that tries
to sell a product using homemade terms and/or abused standard terms
for common phenomena immediately goes on my bullsh*t list.  
Sounds like this company needs to join Jacobs and their "Energy Team"
on that list.

I have no experience with that box but their hype has my interest approaching
zero.  JGD]

----------
Posted by: "Chris Kent Kantarjiev" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 18:53:51 1993
Subject: Re: msd gifs
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4604
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>I downloaded the msd7-#.GIF's and they are not of gif format!!!
>someone goofed up something, somewhere! Could they be resent?
>I'd really like to see these.

>[I checked the files that I sent to the archive and they are in fact
>GIFs.  Generated with Aldus PhotoShop on a PC.  The info command lists
>them as follows:

Depends on your definition of a "true" GIF file. Actually, a REAL GIF
file should begin with ASCII characters of GIF87A or GIF89A or something
very similiar. Some of the files that are on the ftp site are Macintosh
specific GIFs. The MAC has a nasty habit of tacking a header onto the
file which the true GIF standard doesn't specify. If you can strip off
the shit at the beginning of the file, you should be able to view it
with most PC GIF viewers. Some Mac image software has the ability to
save a generic GIF. The best idea would probably be to convert these
if at all possible.

>Larger question.  How to do images we all can use.  I'm quite fond of 
>uncompressed TIFFs but there does not seem to be much non-commercial
>software for TIFFs.  I'm perplexed.

Personally, I'd go for JPEG images. That way we could get nice big 24-bit
color images without humougous file sizes. There seems to be JPEG software
around for PC's, MAC's and most workstations..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Greg Granville       |     99 Blanchard St.   |  gag@arlvax.psu.edu    |
| 814-865-3310 (work)  |    Osceola Mills, PA   |  Applied Research Lab  |
| 814-339-7244 (home)  |         16666          |  University Park, PA   |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|          "I say we take off, and nuke the site from orbit.             |
|          It's the only way to be sure" -Lt. Ripley - Aliens            |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 23 19:05:10 1993
Subject: Re: Emmisions vs. Performance
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4605
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> How you gonna do that with a 245 degree @ .050 cam and a non-computer
-> carburetor?  How much raw gas can these convertors handle, anyway?

> [Since that setup would never pass anyway, kinda beside the point.

 Don't go knee-jerk on me, John.  GM sold engines with similar cams
until '72-ish in some of the bad-bad Chevy, Olds, and Buick optional
motors.  They met the then-prevailing smog standards with air pumps and
neutered carburetion.

 If I could get the 351X to pass, say, up to '70 model year, that would
greatly increase the number of potential chassis I could put the engine
into.  If I could pass, say, to '78, I could use one of the Fox chassis,
and I'd purely love to build a ground-pounding Fairmont Futura.
                                                                                          

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 00:12:07 1993
Subject: Re: MSD7 GIF's are now available.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4606
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In alt.hotrod you write:

}>I have John's MSD wave form GIFs in place on my ftp site for those interested.

}	Where is your ftp site?

}>Is anyone interested in a Hotrod list car GIF show?
}>I created a 'contest' directory just in case anyone wants to see
}>what everyone else is running.

}	Yes! Could you give me the details?

When you get those details can you email them to me please?

	Asaf

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Asaf Kashi			|  "It's way too late to be creative!"
akashi@uiuc.edu			|		--- Unknown
akashi@cs.uiuc.edu		|

----------
Posted by: emory!uiuc.edu!akashi (Asaf Kashi)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 00:26:29 1993
Subject: Re: Turbo-Hydramatic 700R4
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4607
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> Stick with your 3.42 for now and save the cash.  If you later find
-> you want more bottom end torque move upward and if you need morte
-> economy then look for 3.08 or 2.73 axles.  But if you wanted economy
-> wouldn't you have picked a more economical engine (250,305, or 350)?

 I'll probably stay with the 3.42 for the very reason you mention.  The
235 six gets 14.5 on the highway at a steady 70mph.  The 454, in
razor-sharp tune, electric fan, 2-1/2 inch exhausts, and overdrive,
ought to be able to come close.

 I don't really *need* any more power in the Bel Air.  I had originally
built a nice 350 which should have bumped the mileage over 20, but I
swapped it for the 454.  I mean, I can live with 14 if I have to - and
a non-smog 454 ought to be just a teeny bit more exciting than a one
barrel six, right?
                                                                                                                              

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 00:32:41 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4608
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> dont forget:
->      265 Chev 3.50 x 3.0
->       283 Chev 3.75 x 3.0
->      327 Chev 4.0 x 3.27
->      350 Chev 4.0 x 3.50
->
->      289 FORD   ??????????
->      350 Widnsor  ????????
->      350 Clevland ????????

 That's:
        265 Chev        3.75 x 3.0
        283 Chev        3.875 x 3.0
        327 Chev        4.0 x 3.25
        350 Chev        4.0 x 3.48

        289 Ford        4.0 x 2.87
        351 Windsor     4.0 x 3.50
        351 Cleveland   4.0 x 3.50

 At least you were consistent.  


-> Hey let's not turn this into a chevy verus ford flame war.

 Eh?  There's no flaming here. I thought we were just comparing relative
characteristics here.  Speaking of flame wars, I need to bop over to
rec.metalworking and roast some safety Nazis...
                                                                 

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 00:38:13 1993
Subject: rotary
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4609
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> A rotary is NOT a heavy engine. I weigh 160 lbs and can pick one up
-> (with difficulty) and move it across a room without hurting my back.

 Jolly good.  However, it's still substantially heavier than an
equivalent piston engine, viz the car sitting on the top bump stops
when we put the four in.


-> mentioned that the mazda automatic is tough and the five speed weak -
-> not true. I know of someone who broke his mazda automatic several

 I've seen as many as four manuals bite the dust in one season (in
different cars) at the local SCCA events.  I've never even heard of an
auto breaking.  The weak part appears to be the input shaft.


-> to race apex seals, replace any worn parts, etc. I completely rebuilt
-> one and modified it for performance for about $600. As far as being

 Would you care to give a price breakdown, plus tell where you got the
parts?  The circa-1985 prices from my friendly local Mazda dealer were
rather impressive - $360 for a gasket set, $125 each for rotors, $90
each for housings.


-> one and modified it for performance for about $600. As far as being
-> too wide, I don't see where you are coming from.

 Well, my 12A has an annoying little device called a carburetor.  It
also has a thermal reactor, and they hang off a good foot or more to the
right.  There's not a whole lot of room on the passenger side of the
car after that.


-> You will be very hard
-> pressed to find a small engine that has the horsepower, reliability,
-> durablility, ability to run camel piss gas without complaining, etc,
-> of the 12A.

 Any 2000cc Pinto, Cortina, or Capri motor will fix you right up.
Lighter, cheaper, 5 more horsepower, 15 ft-lb more torque, give a
couple more MPG, revs easily to 7500, and you can get parts at any
podunk parts store, unlike the rotary, which neither of the local
dealers carries *any* parts for, and the parts store just laugh at you.

 Of course, you *do* have to lop a coil off the front springs, or it'll
drive sorta funny.   Oh, and the hood closes over the air cleaner
without any trouble, the Mazda radiator works fine, and so does the
Mazda alternator - you don't even have to mess with the wiring.  As the
piece de resistance, the Mazda tachometer even works correctly with the
four!
                                                                                                                        

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 00:43:43 1993
Subject: Re: TH200 ->TH350 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4610
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>
>->      The TH200 in my 80' Monte Carlo is starting to get sluggish. I
>-> would like to replace it with a TH350. Any have any experience doing
>-> this. The car's drivetrain is stock.
>
> In this case, I'd just have the thing rebuilt.  13 years isn't an
>unreasonably short lifespan, particularly considering the 200's poor
>reputation.  I can't see the old driveshaft chop/crossmember move/
>shifter linkage weld/whatever routine on a stocker.

      Acutally, I did the above swap in a '85 Monte Car-slo.    Mine
bolted right in, 'cept for a little hole-enlargement on the stock
TH200 mount.   The proper thing to do is get a TH350 mount and
crossmember.  But, mine worked fine, and lined up straight.
Driveshaft and shifter all lined up.   
   Just gotta get an adaptor to make the TV (downshift) cable mate to 
the TH-350 case.   About $5 at the tranny shop.   Also, you've got to
run a vacumme line to the modulator on the back of the TH-350.
TH200's don't use one.
   13 years on a TH200?  Wow, mine was dead when I bought it at 5
years and 49,000 miles.  But then, so was the motor (4.3 V6) 8(.

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                  --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  

>Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)

>
>
>

----------
Posted by: emory!mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 12:39:19 1993
Subject: Bores 'n Strokes (was Re: Cam)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4611
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


> dont forget:
> 	265 Chev 3.50 x 3.0
>         283 Chev 3.75 x 3.0       
> 	327 Chev 4.0 x 3.27
> 	350 Chev 4.0 x 3.50

> 	289 FORD   ??????????
> 	350 Widnsor  ????????
> 	350 Clevland ????????

I believe these are correct:
        350  Chev 4.00 x 3.48
        327  Chev 4.00 x 3.25
        289  Ford 4.00 x 2.87
        351W Ford 4.00 x 3.00
        351C Ford 4.00 x 3.00
        260  Ford 3.80 x 2.87

A true blue 289 fan,
Dean

P.S. If anyone is interested, I can find the bore and stroke for 
the 221 Ford V8.

----------
Posted by: emory!sierra.com!erd1!dean (Dean Thompson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 12:44:47 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4612
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 > 
> Dave Williams corrects me.
> -> dont forget:
> ->      265 Chev 3.50 x 3.0  
		woops 230 cu. in.
> ->      283 Chev 3.75 x 3.0
		woops 265 cu. in.
> ->      327 Chev 4.0 x 3.27
		woops 329 cu in.
> ->      350 Chev 4.0 x 3.50
		woops 352 cu in>

Gee I got a book on swapping pistons, and cranks on these combo's and
I thaught I had it memorized.  Should have double checked at least with
my calculator.
> ->
> ->      289 FORD   ??????????
> ->      350 Widnsor  ????????
> ->      350 Clevland ????????
> 
>  That's:
>         265 Chev        3.75 x 3.0
>         283 Chev        3.875 x 3.0 
>         327 Chev        4.0 x 3.25
>         350 Chev        4.0 x 3.48
> 
>         289 Ford        4.0 x 2.87
>         351 Windsor     4.0 x 3.50
>         351 Cleveland   4.0 x 3.50

		Well it sounds like Fords 350's are the same as the 352
		of the olden days.  There was only one of those that
		used to give my 1962 283 Bel Aire a run at the track.
		Unfortunatly for him sombody protested him and it turned
		out he really had a 390.  That was a little mismatch
		even though his 1965 Galaxie weighed a little more.
> 
>  At least you were consistent.  
> 
> 
> -> Hey let's not turn this into a chevy verus ford flame war.
> 
>  Eh?  There's no flaming here. I thought we were just comparing relative
> characteristics here.  Speaking of flame wars, I need to bop over to
> rec.metalworking and roast some safety Nazis...
>                                                                  
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
>  
> 
> 
> 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 12:50:34 1993
Subject: Who is the fastest?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4613
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


It really would be interesting if sombody with the data available to
them would post the present NHRA Stock class records and possibly even
what car and engine holds that present record.  This would really give 
people a better idea of what potential there machine really should
have.  

Anybody out there with that data?

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 12:56:02 1993
Subject: Re: SB chevy question
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4614
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> FRank Szymkowski asked
> 
> 
> I would like to kmow the cc's of my 1967 210hp 327 Camaro engine.
> When I had them off last I didn't check. They are 1.94" intake
> 1.60" exhaust valves. I am using TRW 11.5-1 pistons and want the
> true compression. I assume (ass out of you and me) thats its
> around 10.25-1 because it runs on 93 octane pump gas.
> 
Reminds me of the days gone buy when I "stole" a 1967 Camaro Pace
car off the local dealer with a 325 HP 327 in it.  If I only knew then
that they made only 70 of these it would still be mine.  Just think
it was less than $3,000.00 new back then.

Went through some records I got here at work that list the following

305 heads			58 cc.
Early Chevy heads		64 cc.
350 Corvette Angle heads 	58 cc.
Dart II 			69 cc.
Dart II				80 cc
Eldebrock			70 cc.
Bordix				70 cc.

	My guess is that your running the the 64 cc as they have the same valve sizes you list. Now if your pistins are the trw-l2211af here is how it compares.
Note this data is directly from TRW's catalog, and it is the only high 
performance piston they list for the 327.

58 cc		13.36 comp
62 cc		12.5 comp
64 cc		12.15 comp
68 cc		11.5 comp
69 cc		11.4 comp
70 cc		11.3 comp
76 cc		10.4 comp 

Are you sure it not a milder piston than this?  I think they offered a larger
selection of 327 pistons several years back.  Or it has not been ground
out a bit?

Dennis
 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 13:01:08 1993
Subject: Re: SB chevy question
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4615
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:


>I would like to kmow the cc's of my 1967 210hp 327 Camaro engine.
>When I had them off last I didn't check. They are 1.94" intake
>1.60" exhaust valves. I am using TRW 11.5-1 pistons and want the
>true compression. I assume (ass out of you and me) thats its
>around 10.25-1 bucause it runs on 93 octane pump gas.

>From the vintage, I would guess that they are 64cc heads.  Do you know the casting number?  That may help, too.  Of course whatever we tell you is only going
to be approximate, anyway.  Chamber volumes can vary + or - a couple cc's, easy.
Best way is to check them.
-- 
Scott A. Butzin                                sabg2063@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois
Automotive Systems Laboratory

----------
Posted by: emory!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!sabg2063 (Scott A. Butzin)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 13:07:13 1993
Subject: Re: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4616
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>>->      The TH200 in my 80' Monte Carlo is starting to get sluggish. I
>>-> would like to replace it with a TH350. Any have any experience doing
>>-> this. The car's drivetrain is stock.

>> In this case, I'd just have the thing rebuilt.  13 years isn't an
>>unreasonably short lifespan, particularly considering the 200's poor
>>reputation.  I can't see the old driveshaft chop/crossmember move/
>>shifter linkage weld/whatever routine on a stocker.

>NOT!!!  Since this car originally came with the TH350 tranny, everything
>will just bolt right up... At least it should... Check with someone
>at your local junkyard.. They should know.  The 200 and 350 are the
>same length (you will need a TH350 short shaft), and everything
>else on the case is basically the same... Just make sure that if it
>is a Chevy engine, that you get a Chevy tranny... The Buick/Olds/Pontiac
>trannys have a different bolt pattern . . .

This is basically correct, but there is one difference that I know of.  I
installed a 350 Chevy/350 trans in my '78 Olds Cutlass.  It originally had a
Chevy 305/200 trans.  The one item I found that is not the same is one of the
rods in the shift linkage.  I don't know the proper name for it.  This shaft
sits horizontally right underneath the driver.  It attaches at the outboard
end to a vertical shaft from the steering column and at the inboard end to the
bracket on the transmission.  These shafts are different lenghts for the 200
and the 350.

IMHO, the person who recommended rebuilding the original 200 had the right
idea (for the whong reason).  For all the trouble involved in switching
trannys, it's probably worth it to just keep the original.  At least you know
its history, and it probably wouldn't cost you that much more.  Since your
engine is stock, it's unlikely that you'll roach the 200 again before the
rest of the car dies.  My opinion.
-- 
Scott A. Butzin                                sabg2063@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois
Automotive Systems Laboratory

----------
Posted by: emory!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!sabg2063 (Scott A. Butzin)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 13:12:10 1993
Subject: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4617
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Newsgroups: alt.hotrod,wiz.hotrod
Path: cwis!mgolden
From: mgolden@cwis.unomaha.edu (Brian Golden)
Subject: Re: rotary
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@news.unomaha.edu (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: 
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 08:45:22 GMT
Lines: 10

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>racers use stock mazda 5 speeds with soft tires and 12000 rpm launch, and
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^
                                                       Damn! Impressive! :-)

--
                                 - Mike Golden -
                            mgolden@cwis.unomaha.edu
                        "Keep honking... I'm reloading."

----------
Posted by: emory!dns.unomaha.edu!news (UNO Network News Server)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 16:43:27 1993
Subject: RE: Who is the fastest?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4618
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Anybody out there with that data?

All that information is in the NHRA's publication "The National Dragster". 

ron

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 16:48:45 1993
Subject: sb chevy question
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4619
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Dennis, I'm sure that they are 11.5-1 pistons, and yes they were installed
years ago (12 to be exact) but don't worry it's not ready to self distruct,
its a show car and I only drive it a couple hundred miles a year.
(its in a 1965 El Camino)
Frank

----------
Posted by: emory!OAS.PSU.EDU!FBS3     (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 16:54:47 1993
Subject: Transmissions....
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4620
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> >'69-'70 T350 had drain plug in oil pan. Factory replacement pans do
-> not >have the plug.
>
> hmmm... I have an original '72 Chevy T350 that has a drain plug...

 That piece of data came from the parts counter at the local Chevy
dealer.  I hate it when that happens.


-> >all T400 through 1970 had short tailshaft
>
> Hmmm...  I also had a stock '69 Impala 396-T400 that had the
>long tailshaft

 '69 to '70 is close enough for Detroit.  I don't remember where I got
that particular datum.
                                                                             

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 16:59:11 1993
Subject: SB chevy question
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4621
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> I would like to kmow the cc's of my 1967 210hp 327 Camaro engine.
-> When I had them off last I didn't check. They are 1.94" intake

 They're *probably* on the order of 64cc.  Even if you had the exact
casting numbers it wouldn't be possible to tell for sure without cc'ing,
since Chevy had different port and chamber cores which were case into
the *same* part number heads.


 FYI, Ford's 4V Cleveland heads can vary as much as 10cc for "identical"
heads, but that appears to be either different vendors using different
patterns, or plain crummy QC.
                   

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 17:04:06 1993
Subject: Re: TH200 ->TH350
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4622
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 Bob Valentine writes:
  
>	Just gotta get an adaptor to make the TV (downshift) cable mate to 
>the TH-350 case.   About $5 at the tranny shop.   Also, you've got to
>run a vacumme line to the modulator on the back of the TH-350.
>TH200's don't use one.

	Mine does have a vacume line going to the tranny. Maybe it is a
TH350? The rear mounting holes were metric (I had to re-tap to 3/8 because
they stripped).

>   13 years on a TH200?  Wow, mine was dead when I bought it at 5
>years and 49,000 miles.  But then, so was the motor (4.3 V6) 8(.

	Actually its out of a 79' Monte that originally had a 267 V8. Its
got around 100k mi on it now, 50k behind a mild 305. The 80' Monte originally
had a V6 so it has the V6 crossmember. The tranny bolts to it fine though.

	Pete Sanders

	

----------
Posted by: emory!ll.mit.edu!psanders (Peter Sanders)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 17:10:07 1993
Subject: rotary\
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4623
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

street ported rotary proce breakdown :
  oil rings                $150
  gasket set               $70
  apex seals               $170
  apex springs             $24
  water pump cover         $50
  side seals -             from old engine
  side housings -          from old engine
  rotor housings -         from old engine
  rotors -                 from old engine
  stationary gears -       from old engine
  side and corner seal springs - about $0.30 a piece     
  oil seal springs         about $60 
  oil seal rubber          about $40

  All of these parts came from the local mazda dealer, except for the
  race apex seals/springs, which came from racing beat. You can get
  them at the dealer, but racing beat trims them down for you. 
  'Old engine' means almost any junkyard motor you can find. I already
  had one so it cost me nothing. I do not know horsepower/ torque 
  numbersa, I do not know. I do know that max torque/HP means nothing.
  Many turbo four bangers are rated at more HP than I believe my
  engine puts out. The cars can't possibly weigh that much more than
  mine, so why is it not even a close race? Why do I always annhilate
  them, pulling away like no tomorrow? I find it impossible to believe
  that my car would go faster with a four banger. Come on, now. I have
  had little trouble outrunning many V-8's like corvettes and mustang
  LX 5.0's. I don't buy your '4 cylinders are better than no
  cylinders' story for a second. If you make more power with a 2000 cc
  four cyl. than with a rotary, you haven't got a clue how to build a
  rotary. BTW, they go faster when you turn on the ignition!

----------
Posted by: James D Rosemary 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 17:16:55 1993
Subject: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4624
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Is it possible to tell if Chevy smallblock heads have 2.02/1.60 valves while
they are bolted to the engine?  Like, do certain casting numbers come with only
this valve set?  The "double hump" just tells you that the heads have small
combustion chambers, right?

Thanks in advance.
Wynand
    wdepuy@isye.gatech.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!chmsr.isye.gatech.edu!wdepuy (Wynand Crawford Depuy)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 17:21:41 1993
Subject: RE: Bores 'n Strokes
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4625
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

     

             The following I think is more correct(I think):
 
              FORD 302 4.00 X 3.00
                   351W 4.00 X 3.50

----------
Posted by: emory!ucsvax.ucs.umass.edu!HILLIARD (TIMOTHY A HILLIARD)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 17:25:47 1993
Subject: Re: Who is the fastest?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4626
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>>>
>>>It really would be interesting if sombody with the data available to
>>>them would post the present NHRA Stock class records and possibly even
>>>what car and engine holds that present record.  This would really give 
>>>people a better idea of what potential there machine really should
>>>have.  
>>>
>>>Anybody out there with that data?
>>>

By the time the list was typed in, top fuel would have changed the record.
(And they are the first on the list)(love those 300+ passes!!! :').....
                                                                  ^^^^^
                                                                  drool...
                                                                       drool...

I have all of it. It'l take too long to type in each single class. here's 
the big ones for the *totally* stock classes... I don't have the NHRA 
rulebook in my office to see just how stock (or big the motors are) these cars 
are. Guaranteed about the only change on them is the cam. No different carbs, 
no overboring over .040, no aftermarket pistons etc.(they would check all parts
for legality if you could break the record)...

A/SA = (???)/STOCK AUTOMATIC
D/S  = (???)/STOCK (gonna be a 4 speed)

Source:the following is copied from NATIONAL DRAGSTER without permission 8')..
 

class	time	speed	date	who		what		where
A/SA	10.38	127.94	dec 92	Joe Aluise	'63 belvedere	Brandeton Fla.
D/S	10.95	120.32	mar91	hanley?		'67 camaro	Delmar Del.

I remember the '67 camaro breaking the record.. That was a big deal.. I only
noticed because i owned one... mine ran a 12.23 @116 (aaah... another time...)

-dan a.

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 17:31:41 1993
Subject: 1923 FORD T-BUCKET FOR SALE
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4627
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

1923 FORD T-BUCKET
Licensed for street in Wisconsin
Big block 427 Corvette Engine
Corvette 4-speed stick transmission
1957 Chevrolet 3.7 gearbox
Holley 4.barrel carb
1907-1909 brass carbon headlights converted to sealed beams
Great family car; Good milage (NOT)
Asking $12,900.00,  or best offer

Phone (715)778-4596

James Dean Houdek (you can call him Jim)
Route 2
Spring Valley, Wisconsin 54767 (USA)




----------
Posted by: emory!medtronic.com!gregg.deutsch (Gregg Deutsch)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 17:37:18 1993
Subject: Re:  Street Stock Racing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4628
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I am in the process of building a Street Stock car to be raced in New
England (Lee, Star, Hudson in NH and possibily Staford CT.) this year.
I am new to this class and relatively new to auto racing. I am looking 
for the following info.

1) Is there a good publication that I should subscribe to?
2) Is there a list of track schedules and/or class rules on the net?
3) What mail order companies are out there for things like engine parts,
   chassis parts, electronics, safety equipment etc.?
4) What is the best methods to find big$$ tools like Mig welder, Air 
   compresser etc.?

I am sure this list will grow over time. Any help is greatly appreciated.

----------
Posted by: emory!Think.COM!salty (john saltamartine)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 18:22:34 1993
Subject: 327 chevy mods
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4629
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Rob Snyder asked what I did to my '67 327 engine.
* It is bored .030" over
* has TRW 11.5-1 forged pistons
* stock rods, steel crank, stock 2 bolt mains
* Isky 280 hyd cam. If I remember the specs- 280 duration, 465" lift
* stock push rods, rocker arms
* Isky anti-pump up lifters
* TRW double row roller timing chain
* heads- original w/ minor porting and s/s valves
* intake- 1963 Corvette 340 hp/327
* 1-5/8" headers
* Hays stinger electronic ignition
* Edelbrock 750 cfm carb

all this work was done years ago so I don't think you could duplicate it
exactly. Please pardon me if I didn't remember all the specs.
*Frank*

----------
Posted by: emory!OAS.PSU.EDU!FBS3     (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 18:28:16 1993
Subject: Bores 'n Strokes (was Re: Cam)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4630
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> P.S. If anyone is interested, I can find the bore and stroke for the
-> 221 Ford V8.

 3.50 x 2.87.

 BTW, if anyone is into pyramid-number numerology or anything, a 4.0
inch bore is a "magic number" for engines.  Given a 4 inch bore, the
stroke pretty well matches the displacement:

        stroke          CID             error
        2.87            289             +2
        3.0             302             +2
        3.25            327             +2
        3.48            350             +2
        3.50            351             0
        4.0             400             0

 When you start offset grinding on a small block Ford or a 350 Chevy,
the new stroke is about the displacement.  Cool, wot?
                                                                                                     

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 18:33:44 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4631
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


->              used to give my 1962 283 Bel Aire a run at the track.
->              Unfortunatly for him sombody protested him and it turned
->              out he really had a 390.  That was a little mismatch
->              even though his 1965 Galaxie weighed a little more.

 Gosh.  No imagination at all.  Take a 427 block and a 428 crank, put
'em together, and you have a 454 FE series Ford.  Then you tell everyone
it's a 332, see?  The only giveaway is the counterweight on the
balancer, but with enough junk bolted onto the front of the motor, who'd
notice?

 The most flagrant cheat I ever saw was a kid who had a Buick Skyhawk,
the Chevy Monza variant.  He had "V6 Power" stickers and stuff on it.
Under the hood was a small block 400 Chevy on Monza mounts.
Astoundingly, NOBODY ever asked to see the motor - I guess they weren't
interested in looking at a crummy old "V6"...

 I'm going to pick up some "348 Turbo-Fire" stickers at Super Chevy
Sunday in Memphis, week after next.  I figure they'll look spiffy on my
454.  After all, how many modern guys know what a 348 looks like,
anyway?
                                                                                                                       

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 18:39:27 1993
Subject: spiralock nuts
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4632
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


i am putting together a order for spiralock nuts/and or taps.
these are nuts that have a different shaped thread which
distributes load on a bolt more evenly.  normal threads
put 60-70 % of the load on the first 2 threads.  spiralock
has a $100 minimum order.  the nuts also work as locknuts
and they work with standard male fasteners.
please email me at dxs@evolving.com and i will collect your
orders plus my own and we can split shipping.
thanks
dan stanger

----------
Posted by: emory!evolving.com!dxs
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 18:50:31 1993
Subject: Chevy Big Block 4 Sale
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4633
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Posting for a friend...



			1970 454 LS-6


*1970 LS-6, 11 to 1 comp., block decked, steel crank, 4 bolt mains
 w/windage tray, 7/16" con rods, less than 5K on short block.

*Oval port heads, #781 casting, resurfaced and magnufluxed, severe
 duty Manley 2.19 intake & 1.88 GM exhaust valves, Isky dual spring
 chrome moly retainers & keepers, pc seals, hardened ex. seats, comp-
 etition valve job, pocket ported, valves unshrouded and intake &
 exhuast prots matched to stock gaskets. 0 miles, all new (except
 heads).

NEW GM PARTS

*Tall Chevy Power valve covers, chrome.
*Chrome timing cover & timing tab.
*7/16" intake and exhaust premium chrome moly push rods.
*7/16" rocker arm studs.
*7/16" guide plates.
*Flywheel & dampner (balancer)
*Hi Volume oil pump w/pick-up.
*H/D oil pump shaft.
*7/16" 12 point 4037 steel con rod nuts.
*Hi volume fuel pump.
*Carb heat shield (Holley flange).
*Engine oil suppliment (additive).
*AC spark plugs - 2 sets.
*AC oil filters - 3 each.


NEW PARTS (NON-GM)

*Brass freeze plugs
*Chrome moly oil pump mounting stud.
*Clevite Tru-Roller timing chain set w/ adjustable crank sprocket.
*Fel-Pro & McCord gaskets w/rear seal.
*C.D.W. replacement LS6 cam & lifters w/GM retainers, dual springs.
 Solid lifter - .510 lift - 242 @ .050 duration.
*Ultradyne hydraulic cam & and lifters, 560 lift - 240 deg. @ .050 duration
 (heads have matching springs).


USED PARTS

*Competition Cams magnum rockers w/poly locks.
*850 CFM Holley w/4 corner idle and annular discharge.


$3,500.00 4 everything, Firm.
Will not part out.


Call Jae @ (415) 341-7600 evenings.

----------
Posted by: emory!Eng.Sun.COM!Bob.Cisneros (Bob Cisneros-Banzai Institute)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 22:37:31 1993
Subject: Re:  Street Stock Racing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4634
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu



   If you need tools the best place to look is in the want-adds and
the newspaper under auctions. Places going under that do any man. always
have a welder if not more and real cheap sometimes. Tool men that
go to garages ie:the Snap-On man is a good person to check with.
My dad picked up a Miller-matic 200 for under $2000 with wire that
was very new and barely used(the welder not the wire). Circle track
and Stock car comes to mind for mags. If your building a chevy
you should have no problem finding parts suppliers. If you are building
a Ford get a hold of Jack Rousch and pick up some used NASCAR engine parts
They are pretty cheap and only first rate stuff(stuff champions are made
of(can we say FOOORRRRDDDDD SWEEP)). Running S S you dont need anything to
pricey. Summit has plenty of Chevy parts including engines.

                                  F. O. R. D.
                                  i  n  a  a
                                  r     c  y
                                  s     e
                                  Tim.................

----------
Posted by: emory!ucsvax.ucs.umass.edu!HILLIARD (TIMOTHY A HILLIARD)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 24 22:42:42 1993
Subject: RE: msd gifs
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4635
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


>>I downloaded the msd7-#.GIF's and they are not of gif format!!!
>>someone goofed up something, somewhere! Could they be resent?
>>I'd really like to see these graphs!
      
      
>>Could someone else grab the files and give them a look to make sure
>>nothing got corrupted in transit?

Just grabbed these from ftp.nau.edu/graphics/gif/racing/misc
(msd7_*.GIF), and found that these files are ASCII, not gif format.
All you have to do after getting them is uudecode them.  Came out real nice,
then, with my viewer.

Also got Millam's Cougar from /graphics/gif/racing/contest/Millam - 
cool car!  I'll be looking at more in the next few days.

-- 
Derek Deeter                           derekd@wv.mentorg.com
Mentor Graphics Corp.
8005 S.W. Boeckman Rd.,  Wilsonville, OR 97070-7777

[Whew!  Had me worried there.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!wv.MENTORG.COM!derekd (Derek Deeter)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 08:56:01 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4636
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Wynand asks:
"Is it possible to tell if Chevy smallblock heads have 2.02/1.60 valves while
they are bolted to the engine?  Like, do certain casting numbers come
with only
this valve set?  The "double hump" just tells you that the heads have small
combustion chambers, right?"


The double hump indicates small chambers and large passages but
says nothing about the valve sizes.

If you are lucky and have the right kind of optical equipment
you might be able to figure it out without pulling a head.  You
need to look through the spark plug hole at the valves - if the
valve bores are siamesed then you have the 2.02/1.60 valves
otherwise it is likely the standard 1.94/1.50 size.  I say likely
because sometimes people will put larger intake or exhaust valves
but not both into a set of heads.  I don't know why, they just do.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 09:02:42 1993
Subject: Re: SB chevy question
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4637
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>Dave Williams wrote
> 
> 
> -> I would like to kmow the cc's of my 1967 210hp 327 Camaro engine.
> -> When I had them off last I didn't check. They are 1.94" intake
> 
>  They're *probably* on the order of 64cc.  Even if you had the exact
> casting numbers it wouldn't be possible to tell for sure without cc'ing,
> since Chevy had different port and chamber cores which were case into
> the *same* part number heads.
> 
> 
>  FYI, Ford's 4V Cleveland heads can vary as much as 10cc for "identical"
> heads, but that appears to be either different vendors using different
> patterns, or plain crummy QC.

Actually that isn't pnly a Ford problem.  Back in 1996 when I was rebuilding
a set of heads for a 283 when I initially checked them out they ranged
from 49 to 62 cc in the different chambers.  Some of it was just plain
carbon but I would have expected a lot more consistancy even at that.
When the cc ing, porting, polishing and milling was complete they were 
all between 56 an 58 cc.

dennis
>                    
 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 09:11:09 1993
Subject: Re: rotary\
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4638
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>   had one so it cost me nothing. I do not know horsepower/ torque 
>   numbersa, I do not know. I do know that max torque/HP means nothing.
>   Many turbo four bangers are rated at more HP than I believe my
>   engine puts out. The cars can't possibly weigh that much more than
>   mine, so why is it not even a close race? Why do I always annhilate
>   them, pulling away like no tomorrow? I find it impossible to believe

  Actually, in all likelyhood they DO weigh alot more.  The first generation
Rx-7 was a pretty light car compared to most of today's cars.

>   that my car would go faster with a four banger. Come on, now. I have
>   had little trouble outrunning many V-8's like corvettes and mustang
>   LX 5.0's. 

Your engine is street ported, right?  Amazing what kinda difference it makes.
Mine can only dream about such feats (82 stock port 12A).

>   I don't buy your '4 cylinders are better than no
>   cylinders' story for a second. If you make more power with a 2000 cc
>   four cyl. than with a rotary, you haven't got a clue how to build a
>   rotary. BTW, they go faster when you turn on the ignition!

I see it just the opposite.  The Wankel suffers from a really lousy
cumbstion chamber shape, and hence terrible thermal efficiency compared
to a typical piston engine.  Also, without going to peripheral intake ports
on the Mazda, you are severly limited in intake port size and intake
duration & timing.  The Wankel is neat, but if you really want to make
power then pistons are the way to go.  Relative weights I have no clue about,
so I'll let someone else argue that.


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 09:17:52 1993
Subject: Re: Who is the fastest?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4639
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> >>>I had asked
> >>>It really would be interesting if sombody with the data available to
> >>>them would post the present NHRA Stock class records and possibly even
> >>>what car and engine holds that present record.  This would really give 
> >>>people a better idea of what potential there machine really should
> >>>have.  
> >>>
> >>>Anybody out there with that data?
> >>>
> Dan Howard replied
> I have all of it. It'l take too long to type in each single class. here's 
> the big ones for the *totally* stock classes... I don't have the NHRA 
> rulebook in my office to see just how stock (or big the motors are) these cars
> are. Guaranteed about the only change on them is the cam. No different carbs, 
> no overboring over .040, no aftermarket pistons etc.
> (they would check all parts
> for legality if you could break the record)...
> 
> A/SA = (???)/STOCK AUTOMATIC
> D/S  = (???)/STOCK (gonna be a 4 speed)

The difference between A, and say D, or L is the cubic inch to weight ratio.
Some tracks use factory weight and others make you weigh in upon appling to
race.
> 
> Source:the following is copied from NATIONAL DRAGSTER without permission 8')..
>  
> 
> class	time	speed	date	who		what		where
> A/SA	10.38	127.94	dec 92	Joe Aluise	'63 belvedere	Brandeton Fla.
> D/S	10.95	120.32	mar91	hanley?		'67 camaro	Delmar Del.
>
I wish you could add a few more to the list.  As everyone out there is not
running 454 Camaroes, Or Hemi Belvedere's.  What about some of the lower 
classes G, H, etc.  I know they are not listed in each issue of NATIONAL
DRAGSTER but they may be in the NRA rule book for calculating handicaps?
 

Thanks for what you did give DAN.

dennis 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 09:25:01 1993
Subject: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4640
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Newsgroups: alt.hotrod
Subject: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
Keywords: GM overdrive automatic transmissions
Status: R

A correction to a previous posting of mine:  I saw in the Jeg's catalog I
just received that TCI _does_ have a beefed-up TH200-4R available, at about
the same price as their TH700-R4.  Given some of the testimonials from
Buick turbo-sixers posted here, it's not as if it needs as much beefing as
I'd thought...  The B&M street/strip TH700-R4 is advertised as being capable
of handling up to 450 lb-ft of torque; does anybody know what the TCI units
(both of them) can take?

In a previous posting on TH700-R4's, Frank Evan Perdicaro mentioned a unit
available in S-10 pickups behind the 2.8 (and 3.1?) liter 60-degree Chevy V6.
Are the internals of that the same as those of the V8/90-degree-V6 versions?
I.e., could I use a B&M Transkit, say, to stiffen it up?  Also, what other
trannys can go behind the 60-degree V6?  Not that I'm giving up on my beloved
mice, mind you--I'm just looking into possibilities for future project cars
that'd be much lighter than a Caprice or a Chevelle and that might want a
lighter motor, and a 60-degree is light enough that even I could pick up
the block.  (And, of course, there's the Bow-Tie aluminum block that's fifty
pounds lighter than _that_...)

--Mark Looper
"Hot Rodders--America's first recyclers!"

----------
Posted by: emory!fenris.srl.caltech.edu!looper (Mark Looper)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 14:37:49 1993
Subject: RE: Vericom Prices
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4641
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>What's the price on these things. $100, $500.

The basic VC2000 is $493. Prices start there and go up to $2695. If anyones
interested I can post the breakdown of features and prices, otherwise I won't
waste the bandwidth.

Ron

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 14:45:12 1993
Subject: Re: Street stock racing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4642
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


John Saltamartine asks about where to get parts:
For safety,oils,filters etc.- Racer Wholesale in Roswell GA.
orders 800-886-race. for a catalog (404) 998-7777. Guaranteed lowest prices

For engine parts- Summit Racing Equipment. (216) 630-0200

Frank

----------
Posted by: emory!OAS.PSU.EDU!FBS3     (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 14:47:40 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4643
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> Hale wrote
> 
> If you are lucky and have the right kind of optical equipment
> you might be able to figure it out without pulling a head.  You
> need to look through the spark plug hole at the valves - if the
> valve bores are siamesed then you have the 2.02/1.60 valves
> otherwise it is likely the standard 1.94/1.50 size.  I say likely
> because sometimes people will put larger intake or exhaust valves
> but not both into a set of heads.  I don't know why, they just do.

Old theory that larger exhaust valves and small intake valves gives
better gas milage and low end power.  May be calling it a wives tale is
better since there is no truth to it that I know of.

dennis

 > 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 14:59:48 1993
Subject: Re: Street stock racing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4645
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


------- Forwarded Message

>>>I am in the process of building a Street Stock car to be raced in New
>>>England (Lee, Star, Hudson in NH and possibily Staford CT.) this year.
>>>I am new to this class and relatively new to auto racing. I am looking 
>>>for the following info.
>>>1) Is there a good publication that I should subscribe to?

Yeah.... I'm not sure of the name. I think it's called Circle Track (it's a 
newspaper, not the magazine) local to the new england area oval race tracks.

>>>2) Is there a list of track schedules and/or class rules on the net?

Best bet is to get them from a race track you plan on racing at (one from each)
Warning: you should start with the rule book BEFORE building a car to compete..
saves a lot of $$$ and frustration when you installed something that won't
pass tech for your class...

>>>3) What mail order companies are out there for things like engine parts,
>>>   chassis parts, electronics, safety equipment etc.?

My favorite place to find used parts (even the hard to find stuff) is the 
stafford springs or thompson parts swap meet (each must cover 30+ acres, of 
parts primarily geared for racing of all types, although you do get some junk 
in there, also...) 

>>>4) What is the best methods to find big$$ tools like Mig welder, Air 
>>>   compresser etc.?

check the WANT-ADvertizer in your area. Saves a lot of $$$ for the race-car.


>>>I am sure this list will grow over time. Any help is greatly appreciated.

- ----------
Posted by: emory!Think.COM!salty (john saltamartine)
 
------- End of Forwarded Message
-dan a.
dhoward@stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 15:03:08 1993
Subject: rotary/chevy
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4644
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Yes, my engine is street ported, and it makes all the difference in the 
world. I would not trade it for a piston engine. That would be too 
unoriginal. Anyway,I have seen 80 CID rotaries run in the 9's without
turbos, nitrous, or blowers. I imagine the car was pretty light. My 
point is that my 12A will eat the afforementioned 2000cc 4 cylinder alive.
I consider that discussion closed. No on to something else :

Anyone have a clue as to how much power my 350 chevy makes? I think
it is no more than 280 HP. It is a 1970, originally a 2 bbl. It now
has a 600 holley, full length headers, a weiand manifold, and some
sort of crane cam. The local hicks had determined it to be a fireball,
maybe a fireball II. It idles pretty rough and is a pain to start 
because when it is cold it backfires through the intake a few times.
I do not know who set it up or why.

----------
Posted by: James D Rosemary 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 15:04:09 1993
Subject: Re:  TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4646
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

(Chevy 60-degree V-6 tranny options)

According to my book, the early years saw the following transmissions behind
the longitudinal-version V-6:

Isuzu aluminum 4-spd, integral bell housing
B-W 4-spd (Chevy code M-73) aluminum, separate bell housing
B-W 5-spd OD (probably T-5)
Saginaw 4-spd
TH-200C
 
Apparently the bell housing flange of the 60 degree V-6 is unique. Unless it  
has since been standardized, you will probably need to find a Camaro or
S-10 2.8L donor vehicle with the appropriate tranny.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Mar 25 15:09:25 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4647
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

        Reply to:   RE>TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
Mark Looper writes:
[... I saw in the Jeg's catalog I just received that TCI _does_ have a
beefed-up TH200-4R available, at about the same price as their TH700-R4.  Given
some of the testimonials from Buick turbo-sixers posted here, it's not as if it
needs as much beefing as I'd thought...]

About the TCI 200-4R in Jeg's ... it's funny that Jeg's sells it for about $980
and TCI will sell the same thing directly to you for *only* $1500.  Obviously
protecting their distributers ... 

I did alot of checking around before I had my Grand National's 200-4R freshened
up.  Art Carr wanted $1500 + $250 shipping + my old tranny as a core to go
through my transmission ... OUCH!  From what I've seen, Carr's stuff is pretty
nice, but a friend of mine with a mid 10 second Stage I (now becoming a Stage
II) Grand National has gone through three Art Carr trannys in two years.  It
seems this last one is holding up better.  I've heard from other Turbo Regal
folks around the country that either you get a good one that lasts forever, or
you get very familiar with how to yank trannies ...

The TCI guys I talked to (out of Missouri) said that the 200-4R is pretty tough
if you get an '85 or later.  They also say that the '87 and later models were
the best... some of the late '87-'88 200-4Rs came from the factory with the 10
vane pumps.

Anyway, after shopping around, I had a local guru go through mine and learned
alot!  I had the entire job done for about $450, including parts that weren't
in the rebuild kit (hardened input shaft, 10 vane pump, new drum, etc.).  (He
probably charged extra for me *helping* him ).  It seems to be very
positive on the street and I can't wait for opening day at the track to see
what it will do!

Ken Mosher
Buick GN: "... 3600 pounds of blown Buick ... scary, scary! ..."


----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 09:54:47 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4652
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>  I'm going to pick up some "348 Turbo-Fire" stickers at Super Chevy
> Sunday in Memphis, week after next.  I figure they'll look spiffy on my
> 454.  After all, how many modern guys know what a 348 looks like,
> anyway?

Yeah, those valve covers were fairly plain.  NOT!
Anyway, doesn't a 348 look very much like a 409?  That's a bit more serious.

             _____________________
            |                     |
            |      Chevrolet      |
            |    ___       ___    |
            \___/   \_____/   \___/


George Kulp

----------
Posted by: emory!gvlf9.VFL.Paramax.COM!georgek
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 09:57:27 1993
Subject: Re: Street stock racing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4653
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


> My favorite place to find used parts (even the hard to find stuff) is the 
> stafford springs or thompson parts swap meet (each must cover 30+ acres, of 
> parts primarily geared for racing of all types, although you do get some junk 
	Would you happen to know when the spring swap meet at stafford is?
And i resent the part about junk, you find some really neat stuff if you 
look hard enough through those piles of 'junk'

----------
Posted by: Robert A Walker 
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 09:57:41 1993
Subject: Re: MSD7 GIF's are now available.
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4655
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Pete I don't mean to sound gruff, but the ftp information is in
the header at the top of ALL the posts.

***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt                        met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 3-dueces and an Auto 
1953 3/4 ton Chevy pickumup truck
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto (SPORT console)
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 09:57:44 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4654
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article  Bob Hale writes:
[..]
>
>If you are lucky and have the right kind of optical equipment
>you might be able to figure it out without pulling a head. 

Has anyone made/seen/heard of a device like this?  I've ben thinking
of how to make one, it'd be invaluable for tuning two-strokes.
I've seen a fiber-optic light-souce, but no fiber-optic 'viewer's.
I'd want to be able to see all of the top of the piston, and the
cylinder walls, so being able to move the view around (and see
more than what's visible through the plug hole) is required.

I'd figure that using 2 fibers, one for light source and one
to look through, would be required.  Anyone know of such
a beast, or parts sources?


[They're called Borescopes or fiberoptic scopes.  Made by American Optical
and a few other companies.  VERY expensive.  Breathtakingly expensive.
But REEEAAALLL Niiiice.  JGD]


-- 
            Eric Murray                 ericm@microunity.com
In this game, the winner is also the loser, and the judge's decisions are final

----------
Posted by: emory!angst.MicroUnity.com!ericm (Eric Murray)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 09:57:50 1993
Subject: Re: "348 Turbo-Fire"
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4656
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 > 
> > 
> >  I'm going to pick up some "348 Turbo-Fire" stickers at Super Chevy
> > Sunday in Memphis, week after next.  I figure they'll look spiffy on my
> > 454.  After all, how many modern guys know what a 348 looks like,
> > anyway?
> > ----------
> > Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
> >  
> I do! (OK, so I'm not so modern...)  My '58 Belair had a 348.  When I
> bought the car everyone said dump the truck motor for a real Chevy engine.
> But I kept it just to be different. By the time I sold the car seven years
> later, people would look under the hood and say, 
> "Hey, neat engine ... Is it a 409?"

Well My first car project in high school was rebuilding one of those
little truck engines.  In those days there were speed parts for them.
So I ended up with 12.5 :1, compression a 3/4 race cam shaft, as well
as 3 holley dueces.  This engine was dumped into a 1955 Chevy and sold
since I was not old enough to drive at the time.  The lucky guy who
did buy it did get himself a collection of torophies with it.

dennis

 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 09:59:43 1993
Subject: Re: "348 Turbo-Fire"
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4650
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> 
>  I'm going to pick up some "348 Turbo-Fire" stickers at Super Chevy
> Sunday in Memphis, week after next.  I figure they'll look spiffy on my
> 454.  After all, how many modern guys know what a 348 looks like,
> anyway?
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
>  
I do! (OK, so I'm not so modern...)  My '58 Belair had a 348.  When I
bought the car everyone said dump the truck motor for a real Chevy engine.
But I kept it just to be different. By the time I sold the car seven years
later, people would look under the hood and say, 
"Hey, neat engine ... Is it a 409?"

----------
Posted by: Dave Tartaglia 
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 10:00:17 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4651
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 Bob Hale sez why do some people only size up one of the valves...

 Given that you only have so much diameter to apportion between the intake
and exhaust valves, you want to size them for the most gain. For a normally
aspirated, factory sort of motor one likes to assume that the valve 
peripheries are fairly optimized and any increases outght to be pretty much
proportional between int/exh. So most folks size them pairwise.

 Going to various sorts of forced induction (turbo, supercharger, or nitrous)
places an increased exhaust flow volume burden on the heads without as much
increase on the intake. If a car is being converted to use Abby Normal
induction, sometimes the limited space is best devoted to enlarging the 
exhaust valve as far as possible. Alcohol fuel might also push you more
toward the exhaust side since it's run quite a bit richer, less air but
more power.

 I suppose it might work the other way, too, if the engine always favored the 
exhaust side (perhaps due to a well-tuned exhaust scavengine exceptionally
well). Then the greatest gains might be had by maximizing the intake 
efficiency, esp. with a normally aspirated setup.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 10:01:23 1993
Subject: RE: Vericom Prices
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4649
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


On 25 Mar 93 13:40, hotrod wrote:

>>What's the price on these things. $100, $500.
>
>The basic VC2000 is $493. Prices start there and go up to $2695. If anyones
>interested I can post the breakdown of features and prices, otherwise I won't
>waste the bandwidth.
>

I saw this a few years back in Ecklers (corvette stuff) I don't remember
the price.  I then saw what looked like the same thing (going by the
picture) in J.C. Whitless for about $200.  This was about a year or
so ago.  I wonder if they still have them?

Rob
gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil
-------

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!gallant (Robert Gallant)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Mar 26 10:02:11 1993
Subject: Coils for CDI
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4648
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

A few weeks ago I called Adrenaline for some info on their CDI
box (I like our MSD 6AL just fine, but my faculty advisor insisted
we try the Adrenaline).  The Adrenline guy asked what I was currently
using for ignition (GM computer controlled HEI dist, GMCM, MSD 6AL,
Mallory Promaster, Mallory spiral core 800ohm/foot wires), and commented
that we should be using the stock HEI coil (external) because the windings
ratio was too high in the Promaster, resulting in decreased efficiency and
less current to the plugs.  I was under the impression that the
energy in a spark varied proprotial to the square of voltage, and that
higher voltage was very desireable.  Whats the correct answer?

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)


[Quick look at spark phenomena.  First the Kettering (inductive) style.
When the points/pass transistor break, the inductive energy stored
in the coil builds voltage in accordance with the familiar L*dI/dT
relationship.  When the voltage reaches the value required to ignite a 
spark across the gap, the spark discharge starts.  This may be as low as
8000 volts at idle or as much as 40,000 volts under worst case conditions
of compression, electrode erosion and distributor cap gap.  Once the 
arc ignites, the voltage drops to the a much lower maintenance voltage.
This voltage is typically 3,000 to 10,000 volts, again primarily depending
on combustion chamber conditions.  The arc continues at this constant
voltage until the energy stored in the coil is depleted.  Since the 
established arc behaves like a classic negative resistance device, 
the current is dependent primarily on external factors such as the resistance
of the coil secondary, the resistance of the plug wires and so on.
The characteristic of the arc is almost identical to that of the common
glow discharge voltage regulator tube that hams may be familiar with.
Also quite similar to the behavior of a fluorescent lamp.

Since power is proportional to volts * amps, given that the voltage stabilizes
at whatever value required to maintain the arc, it becomes intuitive that
the more current available, the hotter the arc.  Since the total amount of 
power stored in the coil inductance is finite, increasing the current
by lowering the resistance shortens the arc and vice versa.  At least 
over a reasonable amount of time.  Flux leakage in the coil also consumes
energy so you can't stretch things indefinitely.

Since the total power delivered over time is finite, it is common to 
express this amount of power in terms of Joules (1 joule == 1 watt-second).
The total energy available with a Kettering system is proportional to 
the peak current in the primary and the coil inductance.  This is why 
heavy current and large coils work better.  Also why electronic ignition
works better.  It permits more primary current than can be handled by 
points.

Capacitive discharge ignition works a little differently.  The energy 
storage device is a capacitor charged to ~500 volts.  An SCR discharges
this capacitor into the coil which acts as a simple transformer.  Since
a typical coil transformer ratio is 100:1, that 500 volts will result in
a peak secondary voltage of 50,000 volts.  When the SCR fires, the 
500 volts rather rapidly applied across the terminals of the coil primary.
This voltage rather rapidly starts a current flowing that is proportional
to the impedance of the coil.  As the current builds in the primary,
voltage rises in the secondary.  This is the dI/dT relationship 
as before except that the current is RISING in this instance.
A higher inductance primary, desirable for Kettering ignition, is actually a 
disadvantage because it slows the voltage rise.  

Once the arc ignites, the voltage and thus the impedance of the arc
drops to the sustaining voltage as before.  This impedance drop is
reflected back through the coil to the capacitor.  The transformer
impedance ratio is the square of the turns ratio so for a 100:1 turns
ratio, the impedance ratio is 10,000:1.  Thus if the arc impedance is
8,000 ohms (reasonable, assuming 8000 volts and 1 amp current),
this is reflected back as 0.8 ohms to the capacitor.  Needless to say,
this causes the capacitor to discharge rather rapidly.  That is why the
spark of a CDI system is so brief.  What may not be intuitive is that
any stray impedance in the primary circuit greatly diminishes the spark
energy.  This includes wiring impedance, the coil resistance, the
impedance of the SCR and the internal impedance of the capacitor.

In order to minimize the proportion of power consumed in the stray
impedances, it is desirable to minimize the peak primary current.  To that
end, the coil (transformer) should have the LOWEST turns ratio necessary
to generate the necessary peak voltage to ignite the arc.  this is a 
simple matter of impedance matching.  The super high voltage coils
which have higher turns ratios and/or higher impedance, are actually
undesirable.  The only parameters involved in the pulse transformer (coil)
are the ability to handle the peak current without magnetically saturating
and the ability to handle the peak current.  And, of course, the necessary
secondary insulation to prevent arcing.  

Anyone ever notice the little MSD ProPower #8201 drag racing coil?  This
tiny coil, not much larger than a motorcyclecoil , is designed to work with
the MSD-7 and -8 units.  The -7 and -8 boxes are extremely high energy
boxes.  Yet this tiny coil handles the power.  If you look at MSD's 
advertising, you will note that they claim "33% more current at the plug
than competing coils".  This indicates a lower turns ratio transformer
with larger wire, necessary to handle the peak primary current.
Note that it is NOT suitable for continuous duty due to heat buildup
from the high primary current.

On the other side of the equation, I've measured an Accel SuperCoil 
vs an MSD Blaster coil (low ratio but larger in order to handle continuous
duty) on an MSD-7 box.  The Accel coil is capable of a gazillion volts
but does not deliver the current once the arc is started.  The Blaster 
delivers over twice the current to the plug.

Now the real world question of how to select the coil.  In the absence of 
the capability to test, use the coil recommended by the CDI box mfr.
The HEI coil is probably a good choice for most non-nitro applications.
It is built to withstand extreme heat so it should do well in the 
application.

I have a rig I've built to collect data for a future magazine article on
ignition which lets me measure the peak current and voltage across a
plug while subjecting the plug gap to varying pressure.  The rig is pretty
simple.  The pressure chamber consists of a large refrigeration sight 
glass with a 14mm sparkplug hole drilled and tapped into the side. 
I can view and photograph the arc through the sight glass while varying
pressure applied through the refrigerant port.  A Fluke high voltage
probe is used to scale the spark voltage and a 10 ohm resistor 
from the pressure chamber to ground lets me measure the arc current.
A very simple RC filter clips off all the RF above 20 khz.  The
signals are monitored and recorded on my Fluke 97 scopemeter.
A simple el-cheapo function generator drives the Box Under Test (BUT :-)
at various "RPM".  Maybe if I can get some time, I'll capture some 
waveforms and GIF 'em for posting to the archive.

Damn that got long-winded... JGD]

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 14:42:29 1993
Subject: Corner Scales
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4657
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Anybody know of a cheap place to get corner scales.  I don't care if
there new or used.

Rob
gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil
-------

----------
Posted by: emory!oasys.dt.navy.mil!gallant (Robert Gallant)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 14:49:36 1993
Subject: Re: Street stock racing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4658
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

------- Forwarded Message

> My favorite place to find used parts (even the hard to find stuff) is the 
> stafford springs or thompson parts swap meet (each must cover 30+ acres, of 
> parts primarily geared for racing of all types, although you do get some junk 
	Would you happen to know when the spring swap meet at stafford is?
And i resent the part about junk, you find some really neat stuff if you 
look hard enough through those piles of 'junk'

Posted by: Robert A Walker 

------- End of Forwarded Message

I called Staffard Springs Ractrack yesterday. It's going to be held on 
April 4th (for the spring swap). The fall one is late oct. (don't know the 
date)..

Anyone know when Thompson Speedway holds their spring swap meet? They are 
almost as big as Staffard (and more geared towards roundy-round racing, for
those interested)

My definition of junk: 

Rusted out mufflers that fell off a car while going down the highway and got
"run over", blown out origional parts, or a VERY RUSTY '29 skeleton of a ford 
(for over $2500+) to me are junk (I'm not picking on old fords, just the price
for what's left of the old ford)... 

I don't see why someone would try to sell a RUSTY, FLATTENED out muffler..
they aren't high on most people's wish list for used parts...

BTW the people with the "junk" normally have 454 chevy heads for $50 or less.
I've found the cheapest re-buildable parts are found here...Amongst the "junk".
It's like finding Diamonds in the rough..

I do agree with you..  Sorry if i offended you by the term... 

-dan a.
dhoward@stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 14:55:36 1993
Subject: Re: Street stock racing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4659
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article  you write:
>
>> My favorite place to find used parts (even the hard to find stuff) is the 
>> stafford springs or thompson parts swap meet (each must cover 30+ acres, of 
>> parts primarily geared for racing of all types, although you do get some junk 
>	Would you happen to know when the spring swap meet at stafford is?
>And i resent the part about junk, you find some really neat stuff if you 
>look hard enough through those piles of 'junk'
>
>----------
>Posted by: Robert A Walker 
The spring swap meet at Stafford Springs Speedway is scheduled for
Sunday, April 4th rain or shine...Be prepared for mud, water, and snow!

----------
Posted by: emory!ucs.umass.edu!smolenski (WALTER A SMOLENSKI JR)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 15:00:34 1993
Subject: Re: msd gifs
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4660
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I can convert the GIF files into TIFF, SIMM, JPEG and some more obtuse
formats. I will get into the lab and check the existing GIFs. If 
anyone else has problems or have a format they prefer, write me.

***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt                        met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 3-dueces and an Auto 
1953 3/4 ton Chevy pickumup truck
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto (SPORT console)
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 15:06:09 1993
Subject: rotary\
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4661
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> numbersa, I do not know. I do know that max torque/HP means nothing.
-> Many turbo four bangers are rated at more HP than I believe my engine
-> puts out. The cars can't possibly weigh that much more than mine, so
-> why is it not even a close race?

 There's almost 600 pounds difference between a turbo Mustang and a '79
RX.  The RX also comes with a 3.91 axle.


-> Why do I always annhilate them, pulling away like no tomorrow?

 Maybe you forgot to inform them you were racing?  *My* RX-7 is rated at
about 100hp, and the only things I can pick on say "VW" or "Diesel" on
the trunk lid.  It's a fun car, but it's not anywhere near fast.


-> I find it impossible to believe that my car would go faster with a
-> four banger. Come on, now.  I don't buy your '4 cylinders are better
-> than no cylinders' story for a second. If you make more power with a

 Hey, far be it from me to pull your head out of the sand.  However, if
you're ever in Fort Smith, Arkansas, look up Russ Thurston in the phone
book and give him a call.  He's the one I built the 2-liter RX for.  Of
course, Russ is going to tell you pretty much the same thing I did.



-> side housings -          from old engine rotor housings -
-> from old engine rotors -                 from old engine  stationary
-> gears -       from old e

 According to Racing Beat and a couple other RX places I called, these
items almost always need to be replaced, particularly on 120,000 mile
dogs like the one that was in my RX.  Especially particularly when you
have water in the oil, oil in the water, and water out the tailpipe, viz
the grand finale of ye olde rotary on I-440.  I think you'll find a
complete rebuild, rather than just gaskets and seals, will tally up
quite a bit more than your $600 figure.
                                                                                           

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 15:11:32 1993
Subject: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4662
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> I'd thought...  The B&M street/strip TH700-R4 is advertised as being
-> capable of handling up to 450 lb-ft of torque; does anybody know what
-> the TCI units (both of them) can take?

 Gakk!  Is that all?  I was sort of thinking about building an adapter
and running a 700R4 behind my 351, but Gary's very similar engine
made 480ft-lb on the dyno.

 I could run a Top Loader (950 ft-lb rated) but the "wide" ratio is 2.52
in first.  The 3.06 in the 700R4 would give a better launch, and the 30%
overdrive would mean I could run 3.70s or 4.11s and still keep a
reasonable cruise RPM.

 Hey, when I build the adapter I can use either the Chevy or GM
Corporate bolt patterns.  Corporate transmissions are typically 2/3 the
price of Chevy transmissions around here.  Does this ratio also apply to
the 700R4?  If its main use is F body, Y body, and pickup, Chevy has a
hammerlock on Corvettes and pickups, so the only potential corporate
donor would be a Firebird.
                                                                                                                     

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 15:17:13 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4663
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> otherwise it is likely the standard 1.94/1.50 size.  I say likely
-> because sometimes people will put larger intake or exhaust valves but
-> not both into a set of heads.  I don't know why, they just do.

 Probably because it has been documented, time and time again, that the
2.02s flow *less* air than the 1.94s due to increase cylinder wall
shrouding.  You can grind in the ports to offset the flow and get an
overall gain, but most people don't care to grind.

 On the other hand, the 1.60 exhausts are always worth a few hp just
from reducing blowdown losses.
 

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 17:52:18 1993
Subject: rotary/chevy
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4664
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> Anyway,I have seen 80 CID rotaries run in the 9's without

 As a matter of fact, I have a little trouble with how the displacement
equivalence of a Wankel is figured.  When I do it, it comes out as more
than double the rated displacement.

 Piston engines have a plug that moves up and down a hole; you simply
find the volume of the described cylinder and you have your
displacement.  Rotaries aren't quite so simple, so they use a fudge
factor.  Quite a generous fudge factor IMHO.  Back in the 1960s, one of
the common equivalent displacement formulas conveniently forgot the
rotary's piston had three sides.  Other formulas figured the
displacement from port to port.  Two stroke racers would *love* to be
able to do that...
                                                                                                       

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 19:17:34 1993
Subject: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4665
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> Is it possible to tell if Chevy smallblock heads have 2.02/1.60
-> valves while they are bolted to the engine?

 Not unless you rig up some sort of tool.  Unless you have one of the
(original, documented) high performance motors that was supposed to have
them, you'll just have to pull the head and see.


-> The "double hump" just tells you that the heads have
-> small combustion chambers, right?

 Nope.  The humps, pyramids, and whatnots don't particularly mean
anything.  Some of the older Chevy Power manuals gave you lists of
numbers to look for, which could tell you which chamber and port cores
were used in the castings.  Even then it's not 100% accurate.  GM used
several different foundries, and some of 'em either didn't worry much
about the core numbers, or it was a QC problem.  I have seen and held
"double hump" castings with open chambers, small ports, and 1.72/1.50
valves.
                                                              

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 19:34:33 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4666
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> Old theory that larger exhaust valves and small intake valves gives
-> better gas milage and low end power.  May be calling it a wives tale
-> is better since there is no truth to it that I know of.

 David Vizard has built, dyno-tested, and documented several such
engines, some of which he reported on in "Performance With Economy."
                                                                                                        

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 19:50:39 1993
Subject: Re: SB chevy question
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4667
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> >  FYI, Ford's 4V Cleveland heads can vary as much as 10cc for
-> "identical" > heads, but that appears to be either different vendors
-> using different > patterns, or plain crummy QC.

> Actually that isn't pnly a Ford problem.  Back in 1996 when I was
> rebuilding a set of heads for a 283 when I initially checked them out
> they ranged from 49 to 62 cc in the different chambers.

 Hm.  Chevy heads are usually more consistent than that.  Pontiacs vary
a lot, but when you consider they have coffee-cup-sized chambers, the
*percentage* of variation isn't much.

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Mar 26 22:05:26 1993
Subject: spirallock nuts
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4668
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

here is a explanation on spirallock nuts.  i am still gathering a
list to make a order.

spiral lock nuts look like this
           *
       ^ --- *
      * -   - *
     * -     - *
    * -       - *
   * -         - *
*** -           - ****
---              -----
<--- force

if you connect the * (spiralock threads) and connect the - (regular male
threads).  so the male thread only makes contact at ^.  a regular
female male thread makes contact at the faces of the male female interface.
this single point of contact equalizes the force on the threads so you
can use a weaker bolt or have a stronger connection.  they come in
normal sizes with regular and flange nuts.

if you are interested contact me at 
dxs@evolving.com
thanks
dan stanger

----------
Posted by: Dan Stanger 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 05:44:15 1993
Subject: Re: rotary/chevy
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4669
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>  Piston engines have a plug that moves up and down a hole; you simply
> find the volume of the described cylinder and you have your
> displacement.  Rotaries aren't quite so simple, so they use a fudge
> factor.  Quite a generous fudge factor IMHO.  Back in the 1960s, one of
> the common equivalent displacement formulas conveniently forgot the
> rotary's piston had three sides.  Other formulas figured the
> displacement from port to port.

While it's true that the rotor has three sides, the eccentric shaft
(the engine output shaft, the rotary equivalent of a crankshaft)
rotates three times per rotor rotation. So the rotation of the
output shaft corresponds to a single combustion cycle of the rotor,
NOT 3. It is, in fact, about the equivalent of a single cylinder two-stroke
per rotor (or a two-cylinder four stroke) in terms of effective displacement.

>Two stroke racers would *love* to be
> able to do that...

But they do - a 250cc two-stroke, or so I had understood, displaces 250cc
per crankshaft rotation. Is that correct?


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com

----------
Posted by: emory!wal.hp.com!lupienj (John Lupien)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 05:53:31 1993
Subject: The dream SB chevy
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4670
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


I'm new to this group but I've been a Chevy man forever. I have a 71
El Camino with a 350 and I am in the overhaul frame of mind. I am
curious to hear thoughts on how one might set up a SB for the road
but will have a level of unmistakable power difference. Right now, I have
a performer manifold with a spread bore holley planted on it. It also
has a mild (unknown cam). Other than that, it's pretty stock. To be honest,
my CA smog is going to be due and I know my alterations will not pass
inspection. I think I'm going to take it off the street for some work... hence
my question. How can I get max HP out of my small block without blowing the
dials off the smog machine.

Tim 

----------
Posted by: emory!ingres.com!brazil (Ya can't git dare from here)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 05:58:33 1993
Subject: Re:  TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4671
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> According to my book, the early years saw the following transmissions
-> behind the longitudinal-version V-6:
...
-> B-W 5-spd OD (probably T-5)

 Yes.  That's the T5.

trans   torque  1st     2nd     3rd     4th     5th         note
(Camaro-Firebird)
2.8L V6 3.50, 2.14, 1.39, 1.00, .78     230     13-52-000-061
(S trucks)
2.8L V6 4.03, 2.37, 1.49, 1.00, .76     210     13-52-000-042

 How 'bout 'dat 4.03 first, eh?


-> Saginaw 4-spd

 I thought the last year for the Saginaw was 1978?


-> Apparently the bell housing flange of the 60 degree V-6 is unique.
-> Unless it has since been standardized, you will probably need to find
-> a Camaro or S-10 2.8L donor vehicle with the appropriate tranny.

 Correct, so far as I know.  Also, the RWD and FWD V6s have *different*
bolt patterns.  Why?  Maybe Chevy hired some ex-Ford drivetrain people.
Practically every engine series Ford makes has its own unique bolt
pattern.  Some even have more than one.
                                                                                                                     

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 06:03:47 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4672
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


->  Art Carr wanted $1500 + $250 shipping + my old tranny as a core

 $250?  Are you outside the US?  It only cost me $460 to send a 302 Ford
motor, complete with Top Loader, headers, and all accessories, from
Little Rock to London, England, and that was second day air!  Heck, they
even sent a truck out to pick it up.

 My ripoff meter just went clear over to "tilt."
                                                                   

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 06:08:40 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4673
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> Given that you only have so much diameter to apportion between the
-> intake and exhaust valves, you want to size them for the most gain.
-> For a normally aspirated, factory sort of motor one likes to assume
-> that the valve peripheries are fairly optimized and any increases
-> outght to be pretty much proportional between int/exh. So most folks
-> size them pairwise.

 Yes, but valve size is only part of the riddle.  What you're comparing
is relative flow across the port.  Most US engines average about 4:3
on intake:exhaust flow.  This has become sort of a rule of thumb.

 I first became aware of this when reading one of the Australian hot rod
magazines.  Down Under the GM fans usually got the Holden 253 or 308 V8
in their Monaro or Torana.  The Holden motors weren't exactly designed
for performance, having small ports and valves among other things.  The
head porters tried the tricks that worked on the 351C Ford and small
block Chevy, but the design of the Holden head didn't allow opening up
the exhaust much - and the ratio was more like 4:2 with the Holden,
meaning the exhaust flow was piss-poor.

 This practically drove the Ozzies nuts until they realized the Holdens
could be made to deliver about the same power as an equivalent sized
Chevy; the flow differential just caused some tuning differences.
Evidently GM/Australia had figured it was easier to pump the exhaust
out than to suck fresh air in, so they'd biased the flow ratio heavily
in favor of the intake port.

 Further north, Pontiac and small Mopar people had the exact opposite
problem - intake and exhaust valves nearly the same size.
                                                                                               

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 06:14:01 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4674
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> [They're called Borescopes or fiberoptic scopes.  Made by American
-> Optical and a few other companies.  VERY expensive.  Breathtakingly
-> expensive. But REEEAAALLL Niiiice.  JGD]

 Yeah, but do you have to use fiber?  99% of the time you'll be poking
it in the spark plug hole.  Could you do it with some aluminum tubing
and mirrors?  Time to look at the Edmund Scientific catalog...
                                                    

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 06:19:03 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4675
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> I could run a Top Loader (950 ft-lb rated) but the "wide" ratio is 2.52
>in first.  The 3.06 in the 700R4 would give a better launch, and the 30%
>overdrive would mean I could run 3.70s or 4.11s and still keep a
>reasonable cruise RPM.

      Does anyone know the first gear ratio on a 200-4R?
>
> Hey, when I build the adapter I can use either the Chevy or GM
>Corporate bolt patterns.  Corporate transmissions are typically 2/3 the
>price of Chevy transmissions around here.  Does this ratio also apply to
>the 700R4?  If its main use is F body, Y body, and pickup, Chevy has a
>hammerlock on Corvettes and pickups, so the only potential corporate
>donor would be a Firebird.

      I've NEVER seen a 700R4 with a BOPC  bellhousing on it.   At the
same time, the 2004R often (always?) comes with the "dual pattern"
bellhousing pattern, but I've never heard of at 2004R behind a
Chevy/GMC motor....
      '82 and up F-bodys only used Chevy motors, or the ones with the
GM "metric" FWD style bellhousing.   81 and down never came with a
automatic OD trans, to my knowedge.

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                  --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  

----------
Posted by: emory!mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 06:24:15 1993
Subject: Re:  SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4676
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Dave, 
   Thanks for the reply about ID'ing Chevy heads.  Do you have the list of
casting numbers to their chamber and port sizes that you mentioned?  If it's
too much trouble, don't worry about it, but not I wouldn't mind seeing it.

Thanks.
Wynand

----------
Posted by: emory!chmsr.isye.gatech.edu!wdepuy (Wynand Crawford Depuy)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 06:29:23 1993
Subject: SBC starter solenoid
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4677
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I've seen kits to use a remote solenoid, but never actually seen one
hooked up.  A friend was having hotstart problems on his 327, so he
decided he would make his own remote solenoid.  He bought a Ford
solenoid, and then asked me how to hook it up.  First attempt
did not account for seperate pull and hold coils in the gm solenoid, and we
ended up with the hold coil powering up the switch terminal of the remote
solenoid (oops!).  Grabbed the chiltons and read up on how the GM solenoid
works, and tried running the switch wire to the switch terminal of GM sol,
a wire from the ign terminal of the GM sol to the switch terminal of the
Ford sol, the bat + wire to one terminal of the Ford sol, and a wire from
the other terminal of the Ford sol to the starter terminal on the GM
solenoid (which also has the starter connected to it).  The ign terminal
never powered up, so all I got was a clunk from the GM sol.  I guess the ign
terminal gets switched to the B+ terminal of the GM sol (just realized that
this minute).  So anyway, what is the "correct" way to hook up a remote
solenoid on a GM starter, and will it do any good anyway?

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 06:35:42 1993
Subject: Re: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4678
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article <65ytb2=@dixie.com> you write:
>Newsgroups: alt.hotrod,wiz.hotrod
>Path: cwis!mgolden
>From: mgolden@cwis.unomaha.edu (Brian Golden)
>Subject: Re: rotary
>Message-ID: 
>Sender: news@news.unomaha.edu (UNO Network News Server)
>Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
>References: 
>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 08:45:22 GMT
>Lines: 10
>
>hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
>
>>racers use stock mazda 5 speeds with soft tires and 12000 rpm launch, and
>                                                     ^^^^^^^^^
>                                                       Damn! Impressive! :-)

Not at all - Wankels run the "crankshaft" at 2X rotor speed, so that's 
equivalent to a 6K launch with a "normal" engine.  It becomes even
less impressive when you consider the extremely low rotating mass 
that the things have.....

-- 
Boycott USL/Novell for their absurd anti-BSDI lawsuit. | Drew Eckhardt
Condemn Colorado for Amendment Two.		       | drew@cs.Colorado.EDU
Use Linux, the fast, flexible, and free 386 unix       |  

----------
Posted by: Drew Eckhardt 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 18:39:37 1993
Subject: Re: rotary/chevy
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4679
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> >Two stroke racers would *love* to be
-> > able to do that...

> But they do - a 250cc two-stroke, or so I had understood, displaces
> 250cc per crankshaft rotation

 The way we figure things nowadays, we use bore and stroke, period.
At one time, long, long ago, figuring was sometimes done port to port,
which results in a considerably shorter "stroke" figure than the actual
mechanical stroke.  This was done to derate the displacement for tax
purposes, or to let the engine run in a more advantageous racing class.
Remember, at one time two strokes didn't make anywhere near the power of
four strokes, due to lubrication, breathing, and temperature problems.
The fudge was accepted for a while as a equalizing factor.  Then, of
course, those dratted racers found ways to extract more power from the
two strokes, until the four strokers not only wouldn't give them their
freebie displacement, they started penalizing the two strokes.  C'est la
vie.  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 18:49:27 1993
Subject: Corner Scales
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4680
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> Anybody know of a cheap place to get corner scales.  I don't care if
-> there new or used.

 Make 'em!  Seriously.  Take a look through Circle Track and you'll see
several, mostly made out of conventional steel stock.  I showed a
picture to my friendly welder, and he charged me $60 to make up a set of
four, pivot plates and all.  I used a 5:1 ratio and a set of spring
scales from Wal-Mart.  Don't use the digital scales - you have to set
the car down, then lift it up, then set it down again to get them to
work, and they shut themselves off after a few minutes.  Aaaargh.
                                                                                                                              

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 18:54:16 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4681
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


->     I've NEVER seen a 700R4 with a BOPC  bellhousing on it.

 AAARGH!  You got me fair and square.  Can I plead brain fade?  These
old neurons are high-mileage, you know.

 I sorta forgot the Pontiac guys have been S.O.L. in the motor
department since '82.
                                                 

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 18:58:36 1993
Subject: Re:  SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4682
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> Thanks for the reply about ID'ing Chevy heads.  Do you have the list
-> of
-> casting numbers to their chamber and port sizes that you mentioned?
-> If it's too much trouble, don't worry about it, but not I wouldn't
-> mind seeing it.

 I have such a list, but it's buried somewhere in the boxes of paper
that I ripped out when I got rid of all my old hot rod magazines last
year.  Someday I'll get it typed in.  If you'll post the numbers on your
heads I might have something on them elsehwere, though.

 I *do* have a list of the over-the-counter performance heads and their
characteristics, though.  I could post that.
                                                                        

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Mar 27 19:08:12 1993
Subject: Re: "348 Turbo-Fire"
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4683
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


>I do! (OK, so I'm not so modern...)  My '58 Belair had a 348.  When I
>bought the car everyone said dump the truck motor for a real Chevy engine.
>But I kept it just to be different. By the time I sold the car seven years
>later, people would look under the hood and say, 
>"Hey, neat engine ... Is it a 409?"
>
>----------
>Posted by: Dave Tartaglia 

>>I had a 348 in my 1959 Impala.  Man did that thing have some balls.  I
had a set of old style slicks and I used to race it at Raceway Park in
Englishtown NJ.  back in the mid 60's.  My best run back then was I
think 13.5sec.  @ 102mph.  My friend turned wrenches for me back then so
I'm not sure what tricks we used, but that was my favorite car, even
though it only got 6-7mpg on the street bye steve

----------
Posted by: emory!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!sas (s.a.sullivan)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 28 01:18:17 1993
Subject: rotary
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4684
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I said I was done with this disussion, but I neglected to mention a few things.
First off, I do not pick races. The races I get are unsuspecting shmucks who
are out looking for easy prey only to have me see them, hit the gas, and
leave them :
   a) scratching their heads
   b) pulling their hair out 
   c) banging the steering wheel
   d) some combination of the above
Incidentally, this engine responds well to porting, and it makes a tremendous
difference. I don't go by horsepower - only performance. On street tires it
runs 14.20 at 98 mph. Would be better on slicks. I know it's no big block,
but it was cheap to build, confuses the hell out of people, etc. 
Also, 3.91 gears are NOT deep on a rotary. I did 80 in second on them.
As far as parts, you have too look pretty hard to find cast iron that's in
bad shape. Aluminum is the same way. I once rebuilt a 1973 12A, one of the
'weak' ones, that had been overheated, and even the 'fragile' aluminum was
good. All parts in my motor are well used. The crank had 80,000 miles on it,
the rotors 110,000; cast iron 110,000; aluminum 100,000. All of these were
in great shape, and I did not have to search to find them. I just took the
first parts I came across. 
If you want more info, e-mail me. I don't think the V-8 people really want
to read this.

----------
Posted by: James D Rosemary 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 28 11:40:54 1993
Subject: Re: Street stock racing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4685
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


>>>>4) What is the best methods to find big$$ tools like Mig welder, Air 
>>>>   compresser etc.?
>
>check the WANT-ADvertizer in your area. Saves a lot of $$$ for the race-car.
>
>
>>>>I am sure this list will grow over time. Any help is greatly appreciated.
>

>>If you are new to street stock racing get a copy of circle track or stockcar
racing mags...inside you will find an ad for steve smith autosports, in this 
ad you will find books to cover anything you need to know.  My recomondation
is to start with "Building the Hobbie /StreetStock Car".  Another one is
"So you want to go racing"...These books also contain info on where to get
certain parts and racing needs...

good luck,  

       Steve #77
----------
Posted by: emory!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!sas (s.a.sullivan)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 28 11:46:21 1993
Subject: Re:  TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4686
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 I re-looked-at the book (V-6 Performance by Pat Ganahl) and it does claim 
that the Camaros with the  60-degree V-6s were optioned with cast iron
B-W and Saginaw 4-speed, side-shift transmissions in the '82 and '83 model
years. I guess the bell housing will probably take about any GM corporate
box that uses a 2-piece design?

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 28 11:51:30 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4687
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>
>->     I've NEVER seen a 700R4 with a BOPC  bellhousing on it.
>
> AAARGH!  You got me fair and square.  Can I plead brain fade?  These
>old neurons are high-mileage, you know.

      Yep.   

    What about using those Chevy --> BOPC (and v.v) adaptor plates?
I've always worried that they'd move the converter further out of the
tranny, and cause extra stress on the pump drive/input shaft.

    Disclaimer:   I've never rebuilt or torn apart a auto trans.
                  Save for a few shift-kits.

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                  --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  
 

----------
Posted by: emory!mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 28 11:55:56 1993
Subject: Cams and Blowers
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4688
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Anyone have some net.wisdom on blower cams?
I've got a 350 chevy, Dart II sportman heads, 2.02/1.60, hooker supercomp
headers, Weind X-cellerator lowrise single plane intake, spearco
air/water intercooler (huge plenum on the outlet), Vortech supercharger
that I'm seeing 5.5psi @ 5200 from, suck from a natural gas carb
(not comments about intake backfires, please...  we've already had
several).  The cam were running right now is a Crower hydraulic roller,
intake 276 degrees and .433 lift, exhaust 283 degrees and 454 lift.
I don't know if the duration values are at .050 or not, I assume they
aren't (lost the card and these numbers came from some old notes).  Lobe
seperation is 114 degrees.  No overlap.  Using a stock GM roller timing
chain set, which had no provision for advance or retard if I remember right.
Assumed it was straight up, but may be advanced or retards...  anyone know
for sure if the GM roller comes straight up from the factory?
Anyway, this cam is supposed to be a compromise among power, economy, and
emissions.  It worked really well with a roots blower, but with the
Vortech we aren't seeing any noticeable boost until 3000rpm, and the engine
is really a dog under 4000rpm or so.  Anyone have some suggestions as to
what directions I want to go on the cam profile to beef up the bottom end
and midrange?

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 28 23:49:41 1993
Subject: Re: SBC starter solenoid 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4689
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>I've seen kits to use a remote solenoid, but never actually seen one
>hooked up.  A friend was having hotstart problems on his 327, so he
>decided he would make his own remote solenoid.  He bought a Ford
>solenoid, and then asked me how to hook it up.  First attempt
>did not account for seperate pull and hold coils in the gm solenoid, 

    Huh?   I could be wrong, but I don't belive that there are two
coils in the solenoid.   The two terminals, labeled R and S, do the
following:   S powers the coil, kicking the gear out, and in turn,
feeding power to the motor itself.    R goes hot whenever power is
applied to the motor (ie., S goes hot and the coil kicks...)

[details of attempt deleted]
>this minute).  So anyway, what is the "correct" way to hook up a remote
>solenoid on a GM starter, and will it do any good anyway?

     On my Olds, the problem was it kept eating solenoids becasue the
high-torque  starter drew large ammounts of current.   Our solution:

     1.   Leave S wire in place.
     2.   Install Ford relay between battery and motor connection,
          breaking the connection between the solenoid and the motor.
     3.   Trigger Ford relay with a wire from the R terminal.

     So far, it's been working for about a year with no problems.
YMMV.

     Of course, you could always go to the parts store and ask for the
REAL kit.   Make sure to report back here with details!

>Jon Lusky
>lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
>lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                  --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  

----------
Posted by: emory!mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Mar 28 23:56:56 1993
Subject: Re:  TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4690
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> B-W and Saginaw 4-speed, side-shift transmissions in the '82 and '83
-> model years. I guess the bell housing will probably take about any GM
-> corporate box that uses a 2-piece design?

 All GM Muncie, Borg/Warner T10, ST10 and T50, and Saginaw boxes had the
same bolt pattern and input shaft, though the splines and tailshaft
lengths varied.  I'm not sure about the "Doug Nash" Warner boxes in the
'82-?? Corvettes.  I'm not sure about the T5, but I think it shares the
common pattern, except for being twisted 15 degrees to the left.  The
Getrag six speed uses a unique pattern.  I dunno about the new Warner
six speed.

 Some Buick products came with Ford Dagenham three speeds, and
supposedly a few came with Ford Top Loaders.  I dunno if the
transmission case was special or if GM cast up a special bellhousing.
                                                                                                                              

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 04:32:26 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4691
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


->   What about using those Chevy --> BOPC (and v.v) adaptor plates?
-> I've always worried that they'd move the converter further out of the
-> tranny, and cause extra stress on the pump drive/input shaft.

 I'm not sure.  I'm planning on a 1/4" thick plate and 1/4" spacers
between the convertor and flexplate.  That'll push the convertor out of
the crank tail by 1/4", but I can take that up with the adapter bushing.

 The flexplate/convertor thingie might require a full ring if I can't
find a "flat" flexplate, but that's not a real problem.

 Cleveland heads - Windsor block - Hydramatic trans... I guess the old
engine is getting interesting.

 BTW, rode around some small Arkansas towns yesterday on the
turboYammer, looking for old Falcons.  Found two Falcon Rancheros, two
station wagons, one completely restored two door '62 coupe, and a badly
crashed four door.  I wouldn't really mind a four door if it was in
sharp shape, but the resale value of the car would be zilch around here.
The four door unibodies are stronger...hmmm... I bet that's why they're
so popular in Australia, which has a lot more dirt roads than the US.
                                                                  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 04:44:48 1993
Subject: Cams and Blowers
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4692
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> Anyone have some net.wisdom on blower cams?

 Hoo, boy.  You aren't going to find a lot of concensus among cam
grinders.  Jay once had the hots to slide a B&M blower onto his '90
Corvette, so we made the rounds - Lunati, Comp Cams, Lazer, Ultradyne.
Some like to grind blower cams small, since the blower does the work.
Others like to grind blower cams big, since the engine needs help when
off the boost curve.  Others just recommend the same exact cam as
normally aspirated.

 Jay and I thought a blower cam might be shortish on the intake side,
lots of exhaust duration, and have a fairly narrow lobe center.  All
four of the places pooh-poohed that idea.  I'm stubborn enough I STILL
think that'd be a good blower cam.

 The one thing everybody agreed on was that much overlap was a definite
no-no for a street blower cam, since the blower will just aggravate
things.
                                                                                   

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 05:00:17 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4693
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:


>-> otherwise it is likely the standard 1.94/1.50 size.  I say likely
>-> because sometimes people will put larger intake or exhaust valves but
>-> not both into a set of heads.  I don't know why, they just do.

> Probably because it has been documented, time and time again, that the
>2.02s flow *less* air than the 1.94s due to increase cylinder wall
>shrouding.  You can grind in the ports to offset the flow and get an
>overall gain, but most people don't care to grind.

> On the other hand, the 1.60 exhausts are always worth a few hp just
>from reducing blowdown losses.
> 
In my experience, the real advantage of the 1.6 valve is the tremendous
saving in weight over the 1.5 piece. Check specs on the old 327s--the
250-275-300 HP stuff used the 1.5 valve, while the 325-340-350-365 HP
stuff used the 1.6 valve, and had a 1000 rpm higher red line, with
a much more radical cam profile. Alll these engines used the SAME valve
spring. A quick glance at the two valves will show the weight difference.

JD



----------
Posted by: emory!sfu.ca!jimd (Jim Davies)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 05:09:39 1993
Subject: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4694
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

                    Hello All -

I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.  Of specific interest to me are the
Aluminum heads, the crankshaft position sensor, and the throttle body
fuel injection system that are on the new 460's.  Although I would like
to find some heads that sport 4 valves per cylinder and direct-port fuel
injection, I don't believe that Ford currently makes any such motor for
stock applications.  Does anyone out there know if the new 460 heads,
Crankshaft position sensor, et al, will bolt up to the 1970 429?

          Thanks for the help!

          Mark F. Mitcham

[You might want to check out "Jeep Owner's handbook" by Moses Luddel.
He covers that kind of stuff.  JGD]
----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!triton.unm.edu!markm ()
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 09:39:32 1993
Subject: Re: Cam
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4695
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 > 
> Yeah, those valve covers were fairly plain.  NOT!
> Anyway, doesn't a 348 look very much like a 409?  That's a bit more serious.
> 

Yup!!!  Almost as simular as an old 265 is to a new 350 from the outside.
Same heads just a little bigger bore and stroke.
                  ^^^^^^
dennis
----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 09:56:48 1993
Subject: Re: Cams and Blowers
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4696
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> Dave Williams responded.> 
> -> Anyone have some net.wisdom on blower cams?
> 
>  Hoo, boy.  You aren't going to find a lot of concensus among cam
> grinders.  Jay once had the hots to slide a B&M blower onto his '90
> Corvette, so we made the rounds - Lunati, Comp Cams, Lazer, Ultradyne.
> Some like to grind blower cams small, since the blower does the work.
> Others like to grind blower cams big, since the engine needs help when
> off the boost curve.  Others just recommend the same exact cam as
> normally aspirated.

Well about 12 years back a friend of mine had a custom cam ground for his 
Chevy 454 that he was installing a 6/41 on.  They came up with an unusual 
combonation that had intake duration around 280 degrees and exhaust around
312 degrees.  It did have a minimum overlap and fantastic lift.  The cam 
was great at high end (4,500 to 8,000) but really stole his bottom end,
causing him to set the idle at almost 2,000.  Later he tried this cam
without the blower trying to make this car streetable but it seemed to
lack everything at that point.  I'm not sute who did the grinding but
I do remember it was was done by a detroit cam grinder.
> 
>  Jay and I thought a blower cam might be shortish on the intake side,
> lots of exhaust duration, and have a fairly narrow lobe center.  All
> four of the places pooh-poohed that idea.  I'm stubborn enough I STILL
> think that'd be a good blower cam.

Remember that the 6/41 and simular blowers both produce horse and rob 
horsepower.  An example is say it takes 40 horspower to keep the blower
turning and the blower say increases your power by 40 Percent.  Therefore
whenever your engine is under the 100 hp without a blower range it
is actually loosing power from the blower.  Or simply the higher the RPM's
the more benificial a blower is, and on low end you can forget it
almost unless you gear the blower for less boost.
> 
>  The one thing everybody agreed on was that much overlap was a definite
> no-no for a street blower cam, since the blower will just aggravate
> things.
> 
Again the point on overlap being a bottom end torque robber plus a blower
robbing the bottom end would make this a high rpm only engine.                                                                                   
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
>  
> 
> 
> 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 10:37:55 1993
Subject: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4697
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 > 
>                     Hello All -
> 
> I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
> parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.

!991, to 1992 Ford 460?  I was not aware they made a big block yet.  What
do you have to buy to get this big block in it today?

  Of specific interest to me are the
> Aluminum heads, the crankshaft position sensor, and the throttle body
> fuel injection system that are on the new 460's.  Although I would like
> to find some heads that sport 4 valves per cylinder and direct-port fuel
> injection, I don't believe that Ford currently makes any such motor for
> stock applications.

I serious doubt they do for any applications.  NASCAR and simular are
running 352's so where are they racing the 460's.
 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 10:43:52 1993
Subject: RE: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4698
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>     Does anyone know the first gear ratio on a 200-4R?

1st = 2.74
2nd = 1.57
3rd = 1.00
4th = 0.67

Ron

----------
Posted by: "Mellum Ron" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 13:08:18 1993
Subject: Re: No Subject Line
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4699
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> >>racers use stock mazda 5 speeds with soft tires and 12000 rpm launch, and
> >                                                     ^^^^^^^^^
> >                                                       Damn! Impressive! :-)
> Not at all - Wankels run the "crankshaft" at 2X rotor speed, so that's 
> equivalent to a 6K launch with a "normal" engine.  It becomes even
> less impressive when you consider the extremely low rotating mass 
> that the things have.....

Just a couple of factual corrections here - there is no crankshaft, the rotary
equivalent is the eccentric shaft. It rotates at 3X rotor rpm, not 2X, but
there is a power-stroke-equivalent per rotor per eccentric shaft rotation,
so in terms of power strokes per rev on my 2-rotor, a 12,000rpm launch is
in fact the equivalent of a 12,000rpm launch on a 4-cylinder 4-stroke engine.

12,000 rpm is actually quite impressive, even for a rotary. It requires
modifications to the stationary gear which are not legal in stock classes,
and it is considerably more than the engine accessories are designed to
sustain, so either an under-diameter drive pully or something must be done
to reduce this effect.


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com

----------
Posted by: emory!wal.hp.com!lupienj (John Lupien)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 13:14:41 1993
Subject: Re: Cams and Blowers
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4700
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> 
> > Some like to grind blower cams small, since the blower does the work.
> > Others like to grind blower cams big, since the engine needs help when
> > off the boost curve.  Others just recommend the same exact cam as
> > normally aspirated.

 That was my experience, too.  But a "big" cam was out of the question
anyways, as this enigne is also built for economy and emissions.

> Well about 12 years back a friend of mine had a custom cam ground for his 
> Chevy 454 that he was installing a 6/41 on.  They came up with an unusual 
> combonation that had intake duration around 280 degrees and exhaust around
> 312 degrees.  It did have a minimum overlap and fantastic lift.  The cam 
> was great at high end (4,500 to 8,000) but really stole his bottom end,
> causing him to set the idle at almost 2,000.  Later he tried this cam
> without the blower trying to make this car streetable but it seemed to
> lack everything at that point.  I'm not sute who did the grinding but
> I do remember it was was done by a detroit cam grinder.

Eeek, mine was idling reasonably at 400rpm when I loaded the wrong file
into the spark map of a new prom (was at 10 degrees advance...  normally idle
at 47 degrees).  We've run this cam without the blower, with a roots blower,
and now with centrifugal blower.  Had much better bottom end with the roots.

> >  Jay and I thought a blower cam might be shortish on the intake side,
> > lots of exhaust duration, and have a fairly narrow lobe center.  All
> > four of the places pooh-poohed that idea.  I'm stubborn enough I STILL
> > think that'd be a good blower cam.
> 
> Remember that the 6/41 and simular blowers both produce horse and rob 
> horsepower.  An example is say it takes 40 horspower to keep the blower
> turning and the blower say increases your power by 40 Percent.  Therefore
> whenever your engine is under the 100 hp without a blower range it
> is actually loosing power from the blower.  Or simply the higher the RPM's
> the more benificial a blower is, and on low end you can forget it
> almost unless you gear the blower for less boost.

We run a solenoid valve to bypass boost under "normal" driving.  The Vortech
doesn't make any boost under 3000rpm anyway.  If it did, our present cam would
be working much better.

> >  The one thing everybody agreed on was that much overlap was a definite
> > no-no for a street blower cam, since the blower will just aggravate
> > things.
> > 
> Again the point on overlap being a bottom end torque robber plus a blower
> robbing the bottom end would make this a high rpm only engine.                                                                                   
How much is too much is the question?  We have 0 Overlap.  I think adding a
little overlap would actually help our low end.

> > ----------
> > Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 13:21:10 1993
Subject: Forwarded: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4701
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

-------
Forwarded mail follows:
  
> I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
> parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.

!991, to 1992 Ford 460?  I was not aware they made a big block yet.  What
do you have to buy to get this big block in it today?

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 


	the 460 can be had in fullsized pickups...

Walt K.
-------

----------
Posted by: emory!halibut.nosc.mil!koziarz (Walter A. Koziarz)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 13:25:53 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4702
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

        Reply to:   RE>>TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
I wrote:
->  Art Carr wanted $1500 + $250 shipping + my old tranny as a core

Dave wrote:
 [...$250?  Are you outside the US?  It only cost me $460 to send a 302 Ford
motor, complete with Top Loader, headers, and all accessories, from
Little Rock to London, England, and that was second day air!  Heck, they
even sent a truck out to pick it up.

 My ripoff meter just went clear over to "tilt."...
 ----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)]

Nope, just good ol' Midwest (Omaha, Nebraska).  I thought it was awful high,
but it was explained to me that it covered me shipping the tranny core via
track on a pallette to Art Carr and him shipping the finished tranny back to
me.  I checked around local shipping companies and was quoted prices ranging
from $150-300.  Some really sock it to you for pallet goods ....

Ken Mosher
Buick GN: "... 3600 pounds of blown V6 Buick ... Scary, scary! ..."
 




----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 14:44:27 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4703
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
>  Nope.  The humps, pyramids, and whatnots don't particularly mean
> anything.  Some of the older Chevy Power manuals gave you lists of
> numbers to look for, which could tell you which chamber and port cores
> were used in the castings.  Even then it's not 100% accurate.  GM used
> several different foundries, and some of 'em either didn't worry much
> about the core numbers, or it was a QC problem.  I have seen and held
> "double hump" castings with open chambers, small ports, and 1.72/1.50
> valves.
>                                                               


If you're talking about the "Camel-hump" Fuely heads, I'm afraid that
who ever owned those heads that you were looking at was pulling your leg.

The Fuely heads ALL came with 2.02/1.60 valves and 64cc's and only came
on: several high perf. Corvette 327's, the 302 Z28, and the LT1 engine-
(Corvette, Camaro and Yenko Nova)




> Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
>  

                      
                                          
                     
                     |                    
                     | David Gunsul       
                     | dcg@mogun.uucp      
                     |------------------------------------------------
                     |  It's amazing what $2,500 worth of big block
                     |  will do to $60,000 worth of high technology. 

----------
Posted by: emory!mgweed.att.com!mgwhiz!mogun!dcg
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 14:57:45 1993
Subject: Re: SBC starter solenoid
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4704
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Bob Valentine writes:
"    Huh?   I could be wrong, but I don't belive that there are two
coils in the solenoid.   The two terminals, labeled R and S, do the
following:   S powers the coil, kicking the gear out, and in turn,
feeding power to the motor itself.    R goes hot whenever power is
applied to the motor (ie., S goes hot and the coil kicks...)"

All of the GM starter solenoids that I have seen have two windings -
pull and hold.  The hold winding is connected between the terminal
and ground while the pull winding is connected between the terminal
and the starter motor.

When you first apply power to the solenoid terminal the starter
motor is unpowered and therefore looks like a very low resistance
to ground so the pull winding sees power on one end and "ground"
on the other end.  The hold winding also sees power and ground.
Both windings work together to engage the solenoid.  When the
high-current contacts engage then the end of the pull winding
is connected to battery voltage and it therefore has battery voltage
on both ends; this stops current from flowing in the pull winding
and leaves the hold winding to keep the solenoid engaged.

The other terminal on the solenoid housing does not appear in
later starters.  This terminal is an auxiliary source of battery
power which is active while the solenoid is engaged.  It is wired
directly to the positive side of the coil; its purpose is to
produce a higher current through the coil under starting conditions
to help offset the effects of the reduced battery voltage while
cranking.  Obviously, if there is no ballast resistor in the
ignition system then there is no need for this extra battery power
terminal so GM omitted it in later years when the HEI was used.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 15:03:43 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4705
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


  I have a set of SB Chevy heads that I am considering a mild port job
on, but since I haven't pulled them yet, I'm not sure what I'm
starting with.  The motor casting number is 3914678, which I think is
a 68 327.  But the head casting number is 3917293, which from the
books I've seen, belong to a 68-69 307.
  Anyone have any idea about the flow potential of these heads, or if
they could have came with this block?

thanks,

Kevin.

----------
Posted by: Kevin Fultz 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 15:13:53 1993
Subject: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4706
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article  hotrod@dixie.com writes:
> > 
>>                     Hello All -
>> 
>> I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
>> parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.
>
>!991, to 1992 Ford 460?  I was not aware they made a big block yet.  What
>do you have to buy to get this big block in it today?
>

Try looking at the 1991/1992 Ford F250/350 trucks.   Thats where I found 
the one that sparked my curiosity.  Its 460CID, throttle body injected,
and has all the wonderful toys (emmissions wise) that come on some
of the current autos.  What I need to know is if this stuff will bolt
on to my 1970 429CJ without much modification so as to give it a lot
more control on the air/fuel mix (via the injection and computer) and
ignition timing.  

>  Of specific interest to me are the
>> Aluminum heads, the crankshaft position sensor, and the throttle body
>> fuel injection system that are on the new 460's.  Although I would like
>> to find some heads that sport 4 valves per cylinder and direct-port fuel
>> injection, I don't believe that Ford currently makes any such motor for
>> stock applications.
>
>I serious doubt they do for any applications.  NASCAR and simular are
>running 352's so where are they racing the 460's.
> 
>
>----------
>Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)

My mistake;  by "stock" applications, I was referring to production cars, not
NASCAR machines; hell, if the price were right, I would love to go that
route, if parts existed...  However, I don't think you will see any large
dinosaur motors like these in current NASCAR apps.  With the state of the art
in current technology, think of how much power a beast like a 429/460 could
produce (obligatory mental masturbation about massive cubic inches, and
fleeting references to the good 'ol days before the embargo, when MEN WERE
MEN, and DETROIT BUILT SOME SERIOUS MOTORS!)...

Incidently, forget the bit about 4-valve per cylinder heads;  I was dreaming
again...  Unless I am seriously mistaken, I don't believe that my 1970
429 CJ block can support 4 valve heads, unless each pair of intake and 
exhaust valves is actuated from the same cam lobe...

Thanks for the reply...

Mark F. Mitcham

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!triton.unm.edu!markm ()
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Mar 29 15:38:17 1993
Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4707
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> > I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
> > parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.
>
> !991, to 1992 Ford 460?  I was not aware they made a big block yet.  What
> do you have to buy to get this big block in it today?
>
> ----------
>
> 	the 460 can be had in fullsized pickups...
>


F250 (optional) or F350 truck. I don't know about the bigger
commercial trucks.

Kind of neat, actually. They are port injected, and someone is making
aftermarket heads for them as well.

-Bob

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
| Unix Consultant   |-------------------------------------------------------|
| Consultant to MCI | Phone:719-535-1322 | Internet:rmwise@apdev.mci.com    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: emory!mcigate.apdev.cs.mci.com!mcigate!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:17:48 1993
Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4708
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

On Mar 29, 12:43pm, The Hotrod List wrote:
>   
> > I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
> > parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.
> 

You might start by buying a copy of Ford's current SVO MOTORSPORT Catalog.
The factory offers some pretty good parts, many of which may be just what 
you are looking for.  Another good source of modifications for your 429 is the 
HP Book on Big Block Motors and modifications for high performance.  I have it
in the garage but have forgotten the title.  Lastly, JBA's current catalog
offers a variety of custom built Ford engines from small blocks all the way 
to 460's.  Their description of each of these turn key motors in their catalog
may offer a good starting place with what the pros are doing with various Ford
motors.  JBA is a good location to buy the SVO Catalog also.

-- 
Mike

===========================================================================
Michael G. Brattland (brattlan@cyber.net) | 1923 Ford Roadster
600 Coldstream Drive                      |  (Ford 302, Tri-Power,
El Cajon, CA 92020-7721                   |  4 spd, 9 inch)
619 444-1944 (H)                          | 1971 Porsche 911T
619 553-7814 (W)                          |  (Carbs & 5 spd, Orig Owner)
                                          | 1988 Ford F150 4x4
    "3 Deuces and a 4 speed!"             |  (302, 5 spd)
                                          | Ex-Jeepster Commando Owner
For Tech Info on Ford Small and Big Block Tri-Powers, e-mail me!
===========================================================================

----------
Posted by: "Michael G. Brattland" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:23:20 1993
Subject: Rotary Bashing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4709
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


>>racers use stock mazda 5 speeds with soft tires and 12000 rpm launch, and
>>>>                                                  ^^^^^^^^^
>>>>                                                  Damn! Impressive! :-)

(other stuff deleted)

>>so in terms of power strokes per rev on my 2-rotor, 
>>in fact the equivalent of a 12,000rpm launch on a 4-cylinder 4-stroke engine.
>>12,000 rpm is actually quite impressive, even for a rotary. It requires
>>modifications to the stationary gear which are not legal in stock classes,

(more BS deleted)


If you launch at 12k (and keep all of the rotary guts in and don't destroy 
the rest of the car), what's it redline at?  
An Input spline that CAN take a 12K dump? a stock mazda??? 

It sounds like it's getting REALLY DEEP to me...
Especially for a $600 rebuild..

If this were the case, I'd think rotaries would be produced by the "big
three"...( or more importantly  hotrodders or drag racers using them...) 

You would see your mazda disintegrate RATHER QUICKLY if you launched at 12K
at a good Drag Racing track... Let us know... We'll go watch...

-dan a.

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:28:42 1993
Subject: 318
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4710
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


1. I am looking for some guidiance on a 1973 318.  I have a Power Wagan
   1974, with a 1973 318 in it.

   I had this block built from scratch, balanced and cleaned.

   I was told I could match a small four barrel to it which would
   give me more air at our mile high altitude.  But which carb.


   I was also told there a certain 360 heads which match up perfectly
   and increase compression x2.

   Any mopower experts out there?

~a

----------
Posted by: emory!fc.hp.com!pdm (Phil Murphy)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:34:45 1993
Subject: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4711
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> to find some heads that sport 4 valves per cylinder and direct-port
-> fuel injection, I don't believe that Ford currently makes any such
-> motor for stock applications.

 Try:

Arao Engineering                4-valve 460, 351 heads          01/92
21400 Lassen Street
Unit G
Chatsworth CA 91311
818-709-4781

 Hang on to your wallet!
                                                                                

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:41:35 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4712
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

David Gunsul says:
"The Fuely heads ALL came with 2.02/1.60 valves and 64cc's and only came
on: several high perf. Corvette 327's, the 302 Z28, and the LT1 engine-
(Corvette, Camaro and Yenko Nova)"

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that some document somewhere
asserts the above, but I had proof by existence that it just isn't
true.  I used to have a 1964 Impala which came from the factory with
202/160 double hump heads.  It also had a mild cam, an AFB, and
excellent throttle response.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:46:28 1993
Subject: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4713
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

On Mar 29, 15:12, The Hotrod List wrote:
> Subject: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
> In article  hotrod@dixie.com writes:
> > >
> >>                     Hello All -
> >>
> >> I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
> >> parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.
> >
> >!991, to 1992 Ford 460?  I was not aware they made a big block yet.  What
> >do you have to buy to get this big block in it today?
> >

I think the later models are port injected.

-Bob


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
| Unix Consultant   |-------------------------------------------------------|
| Consultant to MCI | Phone:719-535-1322 | Internet:rmwise@apdev.mci.com    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: emory!mcigate.apdev.cs.mci.com!mcigate!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:52:28 1993
Subject: Re: The dream SB chevy
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4714
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Tim (?) writes--

>I'm new to this group but I've been a Chevy man forever. I have a 71
>El Camino with a 350 ...
>... my CA smog is going to be due and I know my alterations will not pass
>inspection ...
>... How can I get max HP out of my small block without blowing the
>dials off the smog machine.

I was waiting for one of the more experienced posters (i.e., one of the folks
who has actually built at least one engine...) to answer you, as I'm not
qualified to make recommendations for "max HP".  However, I can give you
an at-least-partial rundown on smog-legal parts that are out there; figuring
what combination thereof would work for you could be the subject of somebody
else's followup posting (I'd like to read it too).

You express concern about not passing "inspection"; I presume you are referring
to the visual inspection, wherein the smog check tech looks for missing
or altered smog equipment, as it's altogether possible that the setup you
described could pass the sniffer part of the test.  To get aftermarket parts
past the visual inspection, they need either to be "stock replacement" or to
have a California Air Resources Board (C.A.R.B.) Executive Order (E.O.) number
certifying that they don't boost emissions.  You can get a list of E.O.'ed
parts by calling your local C.A.R.B. office and talking to somebody in the
Aftermarket Parts division.  There's been an explosion of applications for
these in just the last couple of years; a partial list applicable to a 4-bbl
1971 350 CID SB Chevy follows:

Cams:	Crane has E.O.'s for all its hydraulic cams with no overlap at .050"
	tappet lift; this goes up to the Commander 284 (222/222 deg .050"
	duration with 114 deg lobe separation, .450"/.450" gross lift).  The
	guy I talked to said they plan to get around to certifying their
	hydraulic roller cams as well, out to similar duration limits.

	Edelbrock has E.O.'s for its two Performer-Plus SB Chevy cams (204/214
	deg on 112 deg LS, .420"/.442" lift, and 214/214 on 112, .442"/.442").

Valvetrain:	Heavier springs seem to come under the "stock replacement"
	rule, as do rollerized rocker arms with stock ratio; Crane has E.O.'s
	for 1.6:1 ratio SB Chevy roller rockers as well.

Headers:	E.O.'ed parts from Hooker, Hedman, Doug Thorley, maybe others;
	check with manufacturers for your specific application.

Ignition systems:	There are a lot of electronic ignitions out there
	with E.O.'s, also high-output coils and distributors, for points
	applications and otherwise; manufacturers include Jacobs Electronics,
	Autotronics Controls (MSD), Mallory, Accel.  On distributors, the
	E.O. commonly does not cover a vacuum advance, so you'll have to put
	on a stock replacement one; I think MSD's includes a non-adjustable
	advance can.  Smog bureaucrats hate any kind of adjustability, so
	recurve kits are generally illegal; again, however, at least one
	E.O.'ed distributor includes such a kit.  I'm a bit confused here; I
	need to do some more talking with manufacturers before I buy anything.

Intake manifolds:	Weiand has an E.O. for its low-rise two-plane 4-bbl
	manifold; Edelbrock claims its Performer is "stock replacement".

Carburetors:	I understand Holley has some E.O.'ed carbs, but I don't have
	details.  Edelbrock has a 750 CFM spread-bore Performer carb (made by
	Weber) that they claim is "stock replacement".

Cylinder heads:	Air Flow Research makes E.O.'ed aluminum heads, and Crane
	takes World Products Dart II iron heads, massages them into E.O.'ed
	form and sells them under the name Fireball.  Edelbrock, again, claims
	its aluminum Performer cylinder heads are "stock replacement".

Notice a pattern in these last three categories?  Edelbrock seems to be
pushing its luck, or rather pushing _your_ luck.  I'd rather have a piece of
paper I could hit the smog-check guy with if he balks, i.e., an E.O.; all
you have is the word of the manufacturer on a "stock replacement" part.
Edelbrock is just setting up an in-house emissions certification facility
(Crane already has one, as does at least one other aftermarket company--I
don't know who), so they may be getting ready to jump through the hoops to
get E.O.'s for these parts even as we speak.

One thing I would note in reference to power is the effect of the cylinder
heads on compression ratio:  Crane Fireball heads start out as 64cc castings
and are sold as 68cc; Edelbrock Performer heads have 70cc chambers.  I am
not sure about AFR heads; I know they can go down to 64cc in E.O.'ed form,
but I don't know whether or not they are obliged to sell you one that matches
your stock (76cc for a '71, right?) volume.  In any case, the other two _will_
allow you to boost compression--this is another thing that makes me dubious
about Edelbrock's claim that its heads are "stock replacement" (that, and the
2.02"/1.60" valves and 170cc/60cc ports).

Finally, I know that no smog inspector is going to strip your engine and
check the cam, rockers, combustion chamber volume, valve size, etc., so it
would probably be easy to get away with things that are technically illegal
but might still pass the sniffer test (of course, it's hard to disguise
aluminum heads...).  I'm not preaching this, nor do I intend to practice it,
for a number of reasons; the practical one is that _I_ sure don't trust my
own guesswork to ensure a combination would pass a sniffer test, and I don't
have the time or money to rework it after a failure--so I'd rather have some
test results, as embodied in an E.O., to give me a leg up on making it work
the first time.  Second, I kind of like the idea of "uncivil obedience" (as
compared to "civil disobedience"), where you stay within the letter of the
law but beat the hell out of its performance-choking spirit.  Third...well,
okay, so maybe I _am_ a prude, but I'm just too damned proud to go sneaking
around.  Of course, this attitude may well land me in the "nice guys finish
last" column, so I can't really recommend it on a _hotrod_ newsgroup...

--Mark Looper
"Hot Rodders--America's first recyclers!"

----------
Posted by: emory!cco.caltech.edu!looper (Mark D. Looper)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:59:49 1993
Subject: Re: rotary
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4715
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


I missed the first part of this discussion.  I take it you are talking
about the older mazdas say the rx3's?  I've always wanted to build up
something like that because they are real sleepers.  Also I love the
sound of rotaries being wound up, they have such a pleasant and
distinctive sound.  But most of the people I talk to here in canada do
not have much to say about rotaries.  In fact most say there are very
few things you can do to them except port them.  I guess that is why I'm
hesitant on building one of these sleepers.  A lot of people say that it
is not worth the trouble to build up a hot rotary, instead just find a
turbo II engine and plop it in instead.

I new of one fellow here that had an rx3 that used to eat 5.0 all the
time and the thing looked pretty sad ( primer no mags etc.  )

All I have to say is that rotaries for their size cannot be beat for
making HP.
--

----------
Posted by: emory!sfu.ca!dartw (Dart Woo)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 11:05:08 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4716
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article , hotrod@dixie.com writes...
>In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
>> 
> 
>Thanks for the input Steve.  I considered this except I doubt the
>automatic trans (TH325C) we were discussing would take kindly to the
>reverse rotation.  It seems to me the pump would have to be replaced
>with a custom unit (unless the supply and outlet plumbing could be
>rerouted), and the bands wouldn't have nearly the grip they should.
>Then there is the torque converter, which probably won't work at all
>running the other way.

Guess i shouldn't jump into threads mid stream.  But I was thinking
along the lines of leaving the clutch at the engine and somehow (yes i 
know this is a big somehow) runing a drive shaft from the clutch to the 
transaxle. Then you could use Crown parts to tap into the nose of the 
corvair transmision. No rotation reversal required, tranmission or engine.

> 
>Which Corvair periodical(s) do you read?  I used to get CORSA, and did see
>many of the old goodies like you mentioned for sale on occasion.


Yes, I'm a CORSA mermber

> 
>....
>> ... and suspension link attachments, and speedo drive.  With a little
>> work a 66-69 transmision can be mated to a 61-64 and 65 differential
>> case.  However for v-8 power, the four spider gear kit should
>> should be installed in the differential to strengthen it, as I've
>> already blown up two differentials in my Corvair.
> 
>How have the diffs failed?  I only had trouble when I tried to adjust
>the backlash myself without the right tools.  The second '66 transaxle
>I had in my Kelmark 'vair held up quite well after a mechanic with the
>right tools adjusted it for me.  Of course, I couldn't quite speed
>shift with the 8 foot shift linkage, and that might have something to
>the longevity.


I blew up the first one in my fathers 110 hp convertable.  Since the car 
had skinny tires and a stock clutch, I'm assuming that the diff musta had
a lot of miles on it.  Anyway, I dropped the cluth from 4 grand in first 
and killed it.  I've partially disassembled it, and am unable to tell 
whether the spider gears or side gears broke first, but all four of then are
missing teeth.  
O.K. so now I swear never to drop the clutch in first.  A year later I've 
got 10,000 miles on my car (66 convert with worked over 140 hp engine, 
metalic clutch and 215/60-14 bfg's).  This car will chirp them is second, 
and that exactly what I did when I crunched this diff.  I've been to disgusted
to take this diff apart, but I'm certain that it's the spider/side gears.

By the way, Kelmark's the kit where you bolt the diff to the V-8 cluth housing 
and turn the tranny backwards, isn't it?




Steve Cole

----------
Posted by: emory!zeus.tamu.edu!smc9782 (DEAD DOG)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 11:11:25 1993
Subject: Edelbrock air/fuel ratio monitor
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4717
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Well....

I just bought the Edelbrock air/fuel ratio monitor and hears what I discovered.
The sensor is a Bosch PN E971-9F472-AA (a lot of numbers stamped on it, I think
this ones the Bosch part number). I believe this to be a standard three wire
conventual O2 sensor though admittedly I do not have the manufacture's
literature. The "little black box" is nothing more than little and black.
Inside there is a surge suppresser, a filter capacitor, one needed and one
redundant resistor to control the LEDs brightness, and a LM3914 Dot/Bar Display
Driver. The design is straight out of the application books with no creativity.
Did I mention the lack of input signal conditioning/filtering to remove engine/
ignition noise? Given the speed of the LM3914's comparators, this is a problem
and certainly a problem in my implementation.

   The electronics clearly runs the sensor in the voltage mode drawing only
a 25nA biasing current for the LM3914's internal buffer. The sensor voltage
and air/fuel ratio have the following corresponds:

                      volts      air/fuel     Lambda
                 (open circuit)
                 =====================================
                       .250       15.0:1       1.02
                       .375       14.5:1       0.99
                       .500       14.0:1       0.95
                       .625       13.5:1       0.92
                       .750       13.0:1       0.88
                       .875       12.5:1       0.85
                      1.000       12.0:1       0.82

>From what I have read in the SAE Transaction pertaining to O2 sensors, this
relationship is "bull shit". :( I can not believe this mode of operation would
let the sensor go as low as .8 lambda let alone have this type of linearity.

I would have at least expected Edelbrock to use a current mode of operation.

Any comments?

My next step is to change Edelbrocks "little black box" into a current
mode of operation and call NGK in hopes of finding an affordable UEGO.

John S. Gwynne
   jsg@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

----------
Posted by: John S Gwynne 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 11:17:28 1993
Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4718
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article <8a5tqqp@dixie.com> hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>> > I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
>> > parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.
>
>
>F250 (optional) or F350 truck. I don't know about the bigger
>commercial trucks.
>
>Kind of neat, actually. They are port injected, and someone is making
>aftermarket heads for them as well.
>
>-Bob
>| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |

Ahhh!  A nibble!  OK - - Port injection?  Tell me more!

And aftermarket heads too?  Tell me more!


thanks!

Mark F. Mitcham


----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!triton.unm.edu!markm ()
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 11:22:53 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4719
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> >  I have seen and held
> > "double hump" castings with open chambers, small ports, and 1.72/1.50
> > valves.
> >                                                               
> 
> 
> If you're talking about the "Camel-hump" Fuely heads, I'm afraid that
> who ever owned those heads that you were looking at was pulling your leg.
> 
> The Fuely heads ALL came with 2.02/1.60 valves and 64cc's and only came
> on: several high perf. Corvette 327's, the 302 Z28, and the LT1 engine-
> (Corvette, Camaro and Yenko Nova)

No not just Yenko Nova`s but the 350 HP 327 option was available directly
from GM and was avasilable at any Chevy dealership.  It was only offered
for 1 year on the normal order form but was available for 2 years on
the special raceing order form which had many delete options like a heater.

dennis
 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 16:28:56 1993
Subject: Re: Cams and Blowers
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4720
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> I do remember it was was done by a detroit cam grinder.

 That'd be either General Kinetics or Wolverine, unless there's another
cam grinder up there I don't know about.  GK is more or less out of
business as far as I know.  I think the company name is mega-tuff, but
most people just say, "Kinetics?  Wha' 'dat?"


-> horsepower.  An example is say it takes 40 horspower to keep the
-> blower turning and the blower say increases your power by 40 Percent.
-> Therefore whenever your engine is under the 100 hp without a blower
-> range it is actually loosing power from the blower.

 Of course.  You have to drive the compressor somehow.  Superchargers
drive the compressor from the crank; turbos drive from the mechanical
equivalent of a potato jammed up the tailpipe.  Regardless of turbo
propaganda, they both take about the same amount of power from the
engine, either direct or as pumping losses.
                                                

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 16:39:27 1993
Subject: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4721
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> I serious doubt they do for any applications.  NASCAR and simular are
-> running 352's so where are they racing the 460's.

 Ford hasn't made the 352 for close to thirty years.  I don't think
they're running them anywhere.

 As for the 429/460 - Ford has a large SVO program, mainly repro BOSS
and Arias/Root stuff for the IHRA monster motor classes.  Of course, the
IHRA boys are punching 'em out to 600+ cubes before they add the
nitrous.
                                                                                                  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 16:52:23 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4722
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> The Fuely heads ALL came with 2.02/1.60 valves and 64cc's and only
-> came on: several high perf. Corvette 327's, the 302 Z28, and the LT1
-> engine- (Corvette, Camaro and Yenko Nova)

 You're talking about more than one head casting here.  What are
generally called "fuelie" heads came on the 327 only.  The Z28 and LT1
heads were different.  For the 327, my factory service manual says the
hipo heads came with 1.94/1.60 valves.  The 2.02s are listed as service
oversize replacement.

 It is possible there were some 327 cars delivered with 2.02s from the
factory, but that was just GM salvaging some heads, like when you tear
apart your mom's Impala that dad bought her new, and you find the crank
is 10/10, right off the lot.

 Now, to complicate matters, Chevrolet offered various heads
over-the-counter as part of their performance program; these often came
with the 2.02s.  These performance and service replacement heads don't
always match anything in production.  For example, for some lo-po 327s
and 307s, Chevy recommends changing *both* heads so you can guarantee
they match.

 If it's all confusing, don't worry about it.  For $500 or so you can
pick up a set of Dart castings that'll blow away anything except the
latest Bow Tie revisions.
                                                                                 

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 16:58:25 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4723
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> a 68 327.  But the head casting number is 3917293, which from the
-> books I've seen, belong to a 68-69 307.

 This might have been one of the "low performance" 2-barrel 327s.

 Is this in fact a 327; ie, 4 inch bore and 3.25 inch stroke?  As a '68,
it might be one of the somewhat rare large-journal 327s.

 What are you intending to do with the motor?  Even if they're the lo-po
heads, it probably won't hurt to port them, for practice if nothing
else.  David Vizard has a book out on porting Chevy heads which you
might find useful.
                               

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 17:04:06 1993
Subject: Re: how fast are you?
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4724
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In the 3/19 of National Dragster-
B/S-68 Camaro-10.68 126.81            A/SA-63 Belvedere-10.38 127.94
C/S-69 Nova-10.74 123.06              B/SA-68 Mustang-10.65 123.73
D/S-67 Camaro-10.95 120.32            D/SA-69 Torino-11.07
E/A-69 Camaro-11.03 120.64            D/SA-69 Torino        119.44
F/S-69 Camaro-11.30                   E/SA-67 Camaro-11.13
F/S-72 Mustang-     118.87            G/SA-69 Camaro-11.39 114.84
G/S-69 Dart-11.39                     H/SA-69 Camaro-11.49
H/S-69 Camaro-11.53 114.75            H/SA-69 Camaro       114.17
I/S-69 Camaro-11.85 112.05            I/SA-85 Camaro-11.64 112.95
J/S-65 Chevelle-11.88                 J/SA-85 Camaro-11.83
K/S-86 Camaro-12.06 110.28            J/SA-80 Volare       110.38
L/S-86 Camaro-12.17 109.94            K/SA-74 Charger-12.06 108.09
M/S-74 GTO-12.45 105.40               L/SA-88 Cutlass-12.11
P/S-65 Impala-12.87 101.75            M/SA-74 GTO-12.27 106.73
T/S-65 Impala-13.92 96.94             Q/SA-79 Regal-13.32 99.06
U/S-77 Starfire-14.48 90.36           R/SA-76 Monza-13.60 97.30
                                      T/SA-76 Monza-13.90
                                      T/SA-66 Impala-     94.93
                                      U/SA-84 Regal-14.44 89.79
                                      V/SA-80 Malibu-15.00 86.82

AF/S-91 Calais-14.27 93.72             IT/S-90 Dakota-14.66 89.54
CF/S-86 Cimarron-14.32 90.18           FT/SA-91 Dakota-13.52 95.64
HF/S-82 Escort-16.68 80.86             IT/SA-90 Dakota-15.05 88.06
EF/SA-84 Shelby Charger-15.12 87.83
FF/SA-84 Charger-15.64
HF/SA-82 Escort-18.07 75.44


Frank

----------
Posted by: emory!OAS.PSU.EDU!FBS3     (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 17:08:39 1993
Subject: Chemicals to deal with Rust (SUMMARY)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4725
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Thanks for the responses to my query on what chemicals are available to
deal with rust.

The only chemical mentioned was "Extend".  It is available in spray cans
or brush on.  Only time will tell...

  Brian

---
bkelley@pms001.pms.ford.com

----------
Posted by: emory!pms001.pms.ford.com!bkelley ( Brian Kelley )
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 17:13:55 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4726
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I may be jumping in in the middle again, but TCI makes a Chevy to BOP
converter.  It costs about $25; I have one in my garage.  Summmit sells
them, but they are not in the catalog, and the phone dudes seem to have
no way to figure out the existance of such a thing.  

I bought my converter when I had a notion of putting the S10 T700R4 I had
in my Cutlass.  Yes, the early S10 T700 is an oddity -- they were, as I
understand it, only produced for 86 & 87 S10s with the small v6.  I sold
mine because I did not want such an oddball.

In sum, if you want to use a standard T700 in with a BOP motor, buy the 
plate from Summit/TCI, and go on to more important things.

Last fall one of these was used to assemble a 71? 442 big block Olds.  
It is reported that this car has been lifting the front wheels on the 1-2
shift of the T700 since then.  Should be strong enough for most things.

	 Frank Evan Perdicaro 				Xyvision Color Systems
      Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today.		101 Edgewater Drive
   inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572				Wakefield MA
outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572		018801285

----------
Posted by: emory!uunet.UU.NET!contex!marvin.contex.com!frank (Frank Perdicaro)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 17:21:08 1993
Subject: RX-7 engines
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4727
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> >>so in terms of power strokes per rev on my 2-rotor, 
> >>in fact the equivalent of a 12,000rpm launch on a 4-cylinder 4-stroke engine.
> >>12,000 rpm is actually quite impressive, even for a rotary. It requires
> >>modifications to the stationary gear which are not legal in stock classes,
> (more BS deleted)
> If you launch at 12k (and keep all of the rotary guts in and don't destroy 
> the rest of the car), what's it redline at?  

Hey Dan,
    I'm not into flame fests. The kind of motor that you can launch at 12,000
rpm is a pretty serious build job - if you took the time to read lines 3&4
above, you might realize that it's non-trivial. As for redline, remember that
there is no reciprocating mass - no great gobs of piston metal getting pushed
up and down. This makes revving easier. However, the faster you spin it,
the faster the apex seals will wear out, since they experience centripetal
acceleration which increases the contact pressure. So if you want to spin it,
and it's built right, you can, but you have to match your rev limit to how
long you want it to last. It's a lot like a piston engine in that regard, but
the limits are somewhat higher.

> An Input spline that CAN take a 12K dump? a stock mazda??? 
> It sounds like it's getting REALLY DEEP to me...
> Especially for a $600 rebuild..

Try a $2,000 build, minimum. 12,000 is a serious spin. Where did you get
the $600 figure? As for the input spline, there's an inertial load that
it has to take up due to the rotational impulse, plus the tire traction
to be overcome, but after that, the rears are spinning. It doesn't really
amount to that much more load than a 7,000rpm clutch-pop, which I don't do
often, but it hasn't broken my input spline yet...


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com

----------
Posted by: emory!wal.hp.com!lupienj (John Lupien)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 17:27:02 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4728
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


>>David Gunsul says:
>>"The Fuely heads ALL came with 2.02/1.60 valves and 64cc's and only came
>>on: several high perf. Corvette 327's, the 302 Z28, and the LT1 engine-
>>(Corvette, Camaro and Yenko Nova)"
>>
>>Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
>>

There are two "fuelie" (however you want to spell it) heads that i'm aware of.

The 2.02/1.60 and 1.94/1.50 heads. Both are basically the same with the 
exception of the valve sizes. By the same, I mean they both are a 
closed-chambered head with good flow characteristics. Intake and exhaust ports
on the 1.94 and 2.02 heads (from the intake manifold and exhaust manifold) are
identical. Both have the "double hump" and no bolt holes on the ends of the 
heads where you would bolt an alternator. 

Dave mentioned a smaller intake/exhaust head that was also a "fulie" head. I'm
not aware of this one.. But it is possible...


My $0.02 worth...

-dan a.
dhoward@stratus.com

----------
Posted by: Dan Howard 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 22:59:00 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4729
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Kevin,
	I talked to a guy who had similar work done on some 307 heads.  They
did work a little better, but not really enough to justify the cost.  If you
are looking for more power in that area, then it'd probably be better to 
start with a good baseline, i.e. a more performance oriented set of heads.  The
valve sizes aren't so hot.  The 307 was really just a passenger car, grocery-getter motor.
                 FC&B

----------
Posted by: FC&B 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:10:56 1993
Subject: Re: The dream SB chevy
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4730
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>Finally, I know that no smog inspector is going to strip your engine and
>check the cam, rockers, combustion chamber volume, valve size, etc., so it
>would probably be easy to get away with things that are technically illegal
>but might still pass the sniffer test (of course, it's hard to disguise
>aluminum heads...).  I'm not preaching this, nor do I intend to practice it,
>for a number of reasons; the practical one is that _I_ sure don't trust my
>own guesswork to ensure a combination would pass a sniffer test, and I don't
>have the time or money to rework it after a failure--so I'd rather have some
>test results, as embodied in an E.O., to give me a leg up on making it work
>the first time.  Second, I kind of like the idea of "uncivil obedience" (as
>compared to "civil disobedience"), where you stay within the letter of the
>law but beat the hell out of its performance-choking spirit.  Third...well,
>okay, so maybe I _am_ a prude, but I'm just too damned proud to go sneaking
>around.  Of course, this attitude may well land me in the "nice guys finish
>last" column, so I can't really recommend it on a _hotrod_ newsgroup...
> 
>--Mark Looper
>"Hot Rodders--America's first recyclers!"
> 
>----------
>Posted by: emory!cco.caltech.edu!looper (Mark D. Looper)

Thanks alot for this information Mark. It is exactly what I was looking for.
I was thinking my question wasn't appropiate for this group since no one 
responded. 

Tim Brazil  Oakland CA.

----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:16:26 1993
Subject: Re: Rotary Bashing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4731
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> If this were the case, I'd think rotaries would be produced by the "big
> three"...( or more importantly  hotrodders or drag racers using them...) 

GM has a license from NSU/Wankel to produce rotaries.  The 1975 Chevy
Monza was supposed to have a rotary, but all rotary plans at GM were
dropped when the arab oil embargo hit.


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:22:05 1993
Subject: Re: rotary
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4732
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> All I have to say is that rotaries for their size cannot be beat for
> making HP.

You obviously haven't ever played with a GSXR1100 :)
 
-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:27:54 1993
Subject: Re: Edelbrock air/fuel ratio monitor
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4733
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>                       volts      air/fuel     Lambda
>                  (open circuit)
>                  =====================================
>                        .250       15.0:1       1.02
>                        .375       14.5:1       0.99
>                        .500       14.0:1       0.95
>                        .625       13.5:1       0.92
>                        .750       13.0:1       0.88
>                        .875       12.5:1       0.85
>                       1.000       12.0:1       0.82
> 
> >From what I have read in the SAE Transaction pertaining to O2 sensors, this
> relationship is "bull shit". :( I can not believe this mode of operation would
> let the sensor go as low as .8 lambda let alone have this type of linearity.

Yeah, I find that very hard to believe.  My experience with the Bosch cheapie
3-wire sensors is that 900mV is ridiculously rich (on my M85 engine,
its spitting raw fuel out the exhaust at that point).  Didn't have access
to the horiba to verify the A/F though.  But If I remember right by the
time all was said and done we had cut the injector pulse almost in half to
get down to the 500mV range.  According to the chart you posted, stoich would
be around 320, and I know thats wrong (although it could be correct for some
tempurature considerably lower than what I'm used to on my Jeep and CNG truck).

> My next step is to change Edelbrocks "little black box" into a current
> mode of operation and call NGK in hopes of finding an affordable UEGO.

Hey, I could use one of those too!  The black box, that is.  We already
shelled out $900 to the local Horiba distributor for a spare UEGO for
our Horiba AFR analyzer, would be nice if we didn't have to fight for the
electronics like we do now.  There must be ridiculous markup on these, though..
They wanted $900 for the UEGO (NGK, btw), and $325 for a 20ft extension cord
for it. 
-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <<== preferred address
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:33:30 1993
Subject: Re: e-mailing for components...
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4734
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:
> In article , hotrod@dixie.com writes...
> >In article , hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

[my excuse for original post omitted...]

> ... I was thinking
> along the lines of leaving the clutch at the engine and somehow (yes i 
> know this is a big somehow) runing a drive shaft from the clutch to the 
> transaxle. Then you could use Crown parts to tap into the nose of the 
> corvair transmision. No rotation reversal required, tranmission or engine.

I've considered this approach, it's probably one of the more
straightforward.  The only drawbacks seem to be only 4 (manual) speeds
and a high driveshaft tunnel.  (Then I go off on the upside down
transaxle, reverse rotation engine, Hone overdrive between the engine and
trans tangent...)

[making a 'vair diff live/die...]

> ... Anyway, I dropped the clutch from 4 grand in first and killed
> it.  I've partially disassembled it, and am unable to tell whether the
> spider gears or side gears broke first, but all four of then are
> missing teeth.
> 
> O.K. so now I swear never to drop the clutch in first.  A year later I've 
> got 10,000 miles on my car (66 convert with worked over 140 hp engine, 
> metalic clutch and 215/60-14 bfg's).  This car will chirp them is second, 
> and that exactly what I did when I crunched this diff...

I could never quite make myself dump the clutch in any gear with my
Kelmark 'vair.  Speed shifts were out too, with the long linkage.  I
just had to be satisfied with the quickest smooth shift I could
manage.  Couldn't match the shifts I made via the Hurst in my '63
Impala, but they were quick enough to be lots of fun!

The 4 spider diff (and was posi ever available?) would definitely help
the breakage problem.  Or, maybe just swap in one of those 5 speed VW
transaxles that was suggested in this thread.  They can be tougher than
the 'vari, and are plentiful; just don't let any of your CORSA pals
look under the car!

> By the way, Kelmark's the kit where you bolt the diff to the V-8 clutch housing 
> and turn the tranny backwards, isn't it?
 
That's right, the transaxle was also swapped front for rear, and the engine
ended up in the passenger compartment like the Crown V8-vair (only not in
your hip pocket).  

The sucker cornered like a bat out of hell.

-- 
Mark Walker	mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu.

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:40:39 1993
Subject: Re: Edelbrock air/fuel ratio monitor 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4735
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>Well....

>this ones the Bosch part number). I believe this to be a standard three wire
>conventual O2 sensor though admittedly I do not have the manufacture's
>literature. 

The "little black box" is nothing more than little and black.
>Inside there is a surge suppresser, a filter capacitor, one needed and one
>redundant resistor to control the LEDs brightness, and a LM3914
>Dot/Bar Display
>Driver. The design is straight out of the application books with no 
>creativity.

     From the tone, I can tell that the design is not a good one.
However, I'd like to get away from the DVM hanging under my dash....
Would using a 3914 (I used those in grade school for really cool audio
power meters...) suffice with a 1 wire O2 sensor?   

>   The electronics clearly runs the sensor in the voltage mode drawing only
>a 25nA biasing current for the LM3914's internal buffer. The sensor voltage
>and air/fuel ratio have the following corresponds:
>
>                      volts      air/fuel     Lambda
>                 (open circuit)
>                 =====================================
>                       .250       15.0:1       1.02
>                       .375       14.5:1       0.99
>                       .500       14.0:1       0.95
>                       .625       13.5:1       0.92
>                       .750       13.0:1       0.88
>                       .875       12.5:1       0.85
>                      1.000       12.0:1       0.82
>
>>From what I have read in the SAE Transaction pertaining to O2 sensors, this
>relationship is "bull shit". :( I can not believe this mode of operation would
>let the sensor go as low as .8 lambda let alone have this type of linearity.


     So then, is this chart valid?

>I would have at least expected Edelbrock to use a current mode of operation.

     I don't have the reference here anymore, but I belive a LM3915
works on current, rather than voltage.   Nice thing about this series
is that you can chain several of them together to get a rather precise
display. (ie., a 20 segment display... hell, just carpet the dash with
those plug in segments! 8^>)

>My next step is to change Edelbrocks "little black box" into a current
>mode of operation and call NGK in hopes of finding an affordable UEGO.

     If you can find a UEGO, let me know.   Last I heard they were
made of "Unobtanium", and way out of bounds on price.

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                  --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  

----------
Posted by: emory!mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:47:19 1993
Subject: Chemicals to deal with Rust (SUMMARY)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4736
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

    Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1993 13:00 EST
    From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)


    Thanks for the responses to my query on what chemicals are available to
    deal with rust.

    The only chemical mentioned was "Extend".  It is available in spray cans
    or brush on.  Only time will tell...

GAckk!  I knew I should have responded to the original question ...
Sorry.

Should I tell you now what time will eventually tell you?

Well, I suppose it _could_ work, but it never has for me...

I'd recommend elbow grease, wire brushes, sandblasting, etc.
Oxysolve (which is apparently a phosphoric (?) acid based product) or
any similar products, essentially disolve rust.  They tend to be slow, but
eventually do get rid of the stuff.  They're best used after getting rid
of as much as you can the hard way.

Me, I dont trust no `Converted' rust.


Of course NIST stays away from any question of the effectiveness of any
chemical whatsoever, and I'm speaking from personal experiences.
Ever hear of the infamous Battery Additive incident?

  bruce
  miller@cam.nist.gov
  

----------
Posted by: Bruce R. Miller 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:51:53 1993
Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4737
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

On Mar 30,  2:42, The Hotrod List wrote:
> Subject: Re: Forwarded: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
> In article <8a5tqqp@dixie.com> hotrod@dixie.com writes:
> >> > I am currently looking at ways to upgrade a 1970 Ford 429 CJ motor using
> >> > parts from 1991/1992 Ford 460 parts.
> >
> >
> >F250 (optional) or F350 truck. I don't know about the bigger
> >commercial trucks.
> >
> >Kind of neat, actually. They are port injected, and someone is making
> >aftermarket heads for them as well.
> >
> >-Bob
> >| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
>
> Ahhh!  A nibble!  OK - - Port injection?  Tell me more!
>
> And aftermarket heads too?  Tell me more!
>
>
> thanks!
>
> Mark F. Mitcham
>
>
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!triton.unm.edu!markm ()
>
>
>
>-- End of excerpt from The Hotrod List

I'll have to go dig up one of my back issues of 4x4 and Offroad.
There was an article in it about the fact that the stock heads have
very small exhaust ports and valves.  The replacement heads were
reasonably priced, carb exempted (or pending) and got ...catch this...
an extra 100hp!

Whenever one of the mags reviews an F250 or 350 with the 460, there
are lots of comments about "great power". An extra 100hp ought to be
fun.  Also, there are a couple of supercharger kits available for
these trucks as well.  I seem to recall one of the mags doing a test
of this on a quarter mile, towing a big trailer with a big boat on it.
I don't remember the times, but they were within respectable passenger
car times. I would like to see the heads/supercharger combo tried,
myself.

By the way, I'm looking for a used F350 dually.  Anybody have one
for sale?

-Bob


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
| Unix Consultant   |-------------------------------------------------------|
| Consultant to MCI | Phone:719-535-1322 | Internet:rmwise@apdev.mci.com    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: emory!mcigate.apdev.cs.mci.com!mcigate!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 23:58:17 1993
Subject: 460 Ford parts (was Parts interchange)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4738
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Many aftermarket parts (heads, intakes, crank kits, etc.) are available for
the 460 Ford.  I have one I am currently working on.  I haven't bought the
heads yet, but a company named AR is currently building a kick-*ss set of
aluminum heads for it.  I am also talking with Lunati about a 512ci conversion
kit for the 460 (it comes with crank, pistons, rods, etc.)  

I don't have any of the specifics in front of me (it's all at home, they get
a little upset here at work when I come in acting like a motorhead :-) ) but
I figure if you can get 800hp out of a .060 over 460 with AR heads (also
available through Ford Motorsports, same head, different stamp on end of 
head) or over 1000hp out of a slightly larger bored 460 (don't remember the
number) I figure I can get some serious power out of the 512 conversion kit
with these heads and the right roller cam.  I can get out the specifics 
(someone, I think Lingenfelter, can't quite remember if it was him or not
but it wouldn't surprise me) did a whole writeup with full documentation,
tests, charts, parts lists, machine work, etc. on how to achieve this then
backed it up with the dyno.  Wasn't cheap, but was pretty cool...  

Oh, and most of this stuff probably won't pass emissions for too many years
(but with a mild cam, I bet I can get away with it in my Bronco. :-) )

-- Steve

   Steven T McClure     ex-'84 GPZ 750 Turbo pilot       stm0@gte.com
GTE Government Systems         DoD #0425              
  Needham, Ma. 02194            /*  Insert standard disclaimer here. */
Beta software: 'beta than nothing, and that's usually all it is...

----------
Posted by: emory!gte.com!stm0 (Steven McClure)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 01:22:10 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4739
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>I may be jumping in in the middle again, but TCI makes a Chevy to BOP
>converter.  It costs about $25; I have one in my garage.  Summmit sells
>them, but they are not in the catalog, and the phone dudes seem to have
>no way to figure out the existance of such a thing.  
>
>In sum, if you want to use a standard T700 in with a BOP motor, buy the 
>plate from Summit/TCI, and go on to more important things.


     I just have two questions:

     1.  Addition of the plate doesn't cause any problems because it
         would move the converter further out of the tranny?

     2.  Chevy converter will bolt to an Olds flywheel?


>Last fall one of these was used to assemble a 71? 442 big block Olds.  
>It is reported that this car has been lifting the front wheels on the 1-2
>shift of the T700 since then.  Should be strong enough for most things.

    Ooops.... guess those questions just got answered.  8)

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                  --> ravalent@mailbox.syr.edu <--  

----------
Posted by: emory!mailbox.syr.edu!ravalent
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 01:26:57 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4740
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>David Gunsul says:
>"The Fuely heads ALL came with 2.02/1.60 valves and 64cc's and only came
>on: several high perf. Corvette 327's, the 302 Z28, and the LT1 engine-
>(Corvette, Camaro and Yenko Nova)"

>I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that some document somewhere
>asserts the above, but I had proof by existence that it just isn't
>true.  I used to have a 1964 Impala which came from the factory with
>202/160 double hump heads.  It also had a mild cam, an AFB, and
>excellent throttle response.

The early double bump heads were all the same casting, but they were
finished in two ways;
1) 1.94/1.5 valves, used in 275-300 hp and 65up 250 hp
2) 2.02/1.6 valves, used in 325-340-350-365 hp engines
There ARE large port/small valve heads around, used on some 307/327
2bbl engines. These have double bump port sizes, but the small valves.
Never seen/heard of any with the double bump casting marks, though, and
I have seen/sold lots of SBC parts.
Jim Davies






----------
Posted by: emory!sfu.ca!jimd (Jim Davies)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 10:26:36 1993
Subject: Head gaskets
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4741
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Well the motor is on the way.  I have one quick question though.  On the head
gaskets, each have front printed on them.  The guy thats helping me rebuild 
my motor says that the water holes should be staggered between the two heads.
Confused?  Let me explain.  The gaskets have the holes open for only one end
of the head.  He says that they should be different.  Like the front of the left
head would be open and the back of the right head would be open.  The other
ends would be closed.  Now, what do yall think?  Should I stagger them, and if
so which should be open?  Should I just leave them with both fronts open?  Or 
should I drill out the other holes?  Well I guess thats about it for the quick
question...sorry it turned into quite a few of them.  Thanks for the help.
Tom McClendon
gt7038d@prism.gatech.edu
BTW its a 70 351 Windsor

----------
Posted by: emory!prism.gatech.edu!gt7038d (MCCLENDON,WILLIAM THOMAS)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 10:34:50 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4742
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>
>
> -> a 68 327.  But the head casting number is 3917293, which from the
> -> books I've seen, belong to a 68-69 307.
>
>  This might have been one of the "low performance" 2-barrel 327s.
>
>  Is this in fact a 327; ie, 4 inch bore and 3.25 inch stroke?  As a '68,
> it might be one of the somewhat rare large-journal 327s.
>
>  What are you intending to do with the motor?  Even if they're the lo-po
> heads, it probably won't hurt to port them, for practice if nothing
> else.  David Vizard has a book out on porting Chevy heads which you
> might find useful.
>
The motor in question is sitting in a '64 Nova at the moment.  I am
not sure what the origional vehicle this motor was in.  The heads may
well be lo-po since it has a 2bbl and the air cleaner has a barely
readable 210hp sticker on it, for what that's worth :-)

The car is a daily driver right now, just trying to pull a little more
power out of the thing.  I've picked up Vizard's book on porting
heads, which kind of inspired to look to porting the heads to get a
little more power out of this thing.  I've seen closed chamber heads
advertised with 1.94/1.50 valves for around $300.  It might be the
best way to go.  I will probably pick up a set of heads at the
boneyard to practice a port job on.

Anyone built their own flowbench?  The plans in David Vizard's book
look interesting.

Thanks,

Kevin.

----------
Posted by: Kevin Fultz 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 10:42:40 1993
Subject: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4743
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Dave - 
thanks for the info... My wallet is **CHAINED** to my hip!  Still,
I think I just might go for it!


Thanks!

Mark F. MItcham

----------
Posted by: emory!triton.unm.edu!markm
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 10:56:27 1993
Subject: Re: 460 Ford Parts
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4744
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu






Ford Mo-sport has a short block kit 460, 600 cubes for around $5000,
If you slap on a set of hemi heads with a "5 or 6" inch cam, you
would probably see some scary HP's............like more than 800
with out to much sweat. I dont want to know what 600 cubes creates for torque
at like 1200 rpm, not to healthy for current issue driveline parts.
Then some psycho should put twin turbos on one (for that need torque boost.)



                     You can take your 10 &12 Bolts, I love my BIG 9" !!!!
                      (with disk brakes in my '80 4 door Fairmont!!)

                                             .............Tim.
  P.S. Forthose of you less mech. inclined, the 5 or 6 inch cam 
thing was supposed to me a joke, pointing out how BIG 600 cubes is
and the fact that a very large cam in the .600-.700" lift range
would probably idle very smooth, but then again who idles? 
*THIS IS JUST A DISCLAIMER SO I DO NOT GET DUMB MAIL*


   Needham is not too far from where I live, like to see it when finished
   (RT 16 West is all I will say) Tim

----------
Posted by: emory!ucsvax.ucs.umass.edu!HILLIARD (TIMOTHY A HILLIARD)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 11:05:14 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4745
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


> Hale wrote
> 
> David Gunsul says:
> "The Fuely heads ALL came with 2.02/1.60 valves and 64cc's and only came
> on: several high perf. Corvette 327's, the 302 Z28, and the LT1 engine-
> (Corvette, Camaro and Yenko Nova)"

Should read NOVA'S not just YENKO NOVA'S
> 
> I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that some document somewhere
> asserts the above, but I had proof by existence that it just isn't
> true.  I used to have a 1964 Impala which came from the factory with
> 202/160 double hump heads.  It also had a mild cam, an AFB, and
> excellent throttle response.

Strong posibility here.  When Chevy was running low on parts they ocassionally
used a higher part in its place.  Also if someone knew about the racers order
form and part numbers they may have been able to order it that way also.

dennis  
  
> 

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 11:12:01 1993
Subject: 318 high altitude help 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4746
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Forwarded message:
>From drogers Wed Mar 31 01:22:27 1993
Subject: 318 high altitude help
To: hotrod@Dixie.Com
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 1:22:27 CST
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

  Tom Root sent this to the MoPar mailing list,
here's some suggestions to help the man.
                                            Daty
Forwarded message:
> From drogers Wed Mar 31 01:18:09 1993
> Subject: 318 (fwd)
> To: emory!fc.hp.com!pdm (Phil Murphy)
> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 1:18:09 CST
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
> 
> Forwarded message:
> > From: tom@marie.stat.uga.edu (Tom Root)
> > To: mopar@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (mopar mailing list)
> > 
> > Forwarded message:
> > > From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:27:00 1993
> > > 1. I am looking for some guidiance on a 1973 318.  I have a Power Wagan
> > >    1974, with a 1973 318 in it.
> > >    I was told I could match a small four barrel to it which would
> > >    give me more air at our mile high altitude.  But which carb.
> > > 
>      I would think any 600ish cfm carb would work, but call the Holley
> or Eldebrock(preferred for a MoPar) tech lines for assistance on high
> altitude requirements. I'm in Dallas, to me high altitude is an overpass d8^).
> 
> > > 
> > >    I was also told there a certain 360 heads which match up perfectly
> > >    and increase compression x2.
> 
>     Any LA head will fit any LA motor, the compression is basicly not
> affected by the head chioce. Valve sizing is,though, the 340/360 heads
> have larger valves and ports than the 318 heads. If charge velocity is
> important at altitude, then go with the 318 heads.
> 
>                                                               Daty
> > > Posted by: emory!fc.hp.com!pdm (Phil Murphy)
> > >  
> > Any mopower experts out there?!
> > 
> 
> 


----------
Posted by: emory!spdc.ti.com!drogers (Daty Rogers)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 11:18:05 1993
Subject: Re: 318
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4747
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 >Phil asked
> 
> 
> 1. I am looking for some guidiance on a 1973 318.  I have a Power Wagan
>    1974, with a 1973 318 in it.
> 
>    I had this block built from scratch, balanced and cleaned.
> 
>    I was told I could match a small four barrel to it which would
>    give me more air at our mile high altitude.  But which carb.

Best bet is a holly and with a 318 anything over 550 is not needed
unless you plan on changing cams to get the rpms well over 6,000.
> 
> 
>    I was also told there a certain 360 heads which match up perfectly
>    and increase compression x2.

2 X the compression, that would mean something like from a mild 8.0 to
16.0 or 10 to 20.  Sombody has to pulling your leg on this one.  And if
it were true what would you run for fuel.  Aviation gas is expensive 
these days.
> 
>    Any mopower experts out there?

No I'm not a mopar man but from what I have heard the 360 was a smog engine
so I wouldn't expect any improvement with those heads.  My route would be 
to take the stock heads to a good racing machine shop and you would come
out ahead dollar wise as well as power wise.
> 
dennis

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 11:23:19 1993
Subject: Re: Parts interchange: 1991/92 460 to 1970 429CJ
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4748
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> Dave Williams responded
> 
>  Ford hasn't made the 352 for close to thirty years.  I don't think
> they're running them anywhere.

Gee has it been that long since the Windsor, and Clevland days?  I know
if calculate cubes from there bore and stroke it adds up to 352.
> 
dennis

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 11:28:57 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4749
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>I may be jumping in in the middle again, but TCI makes a Chevy to BOP
>converter.  It costs about $25; I have one in my garage.  Summmit sells
>them, but they are not in the catalog, and the phone dudes seem to have
>no way to figure out the existance of such a thing.  

The chevy to BOP *rabbit ear* adaptor is an easy piece to make. I used
tro supply them to a trans. part warehouse, so have a bit of experience
with them ;-)  If there is any interest, I could rack my brain and remember some details, but what I wanted to mention is that the torque convertor to trans.
pump end clearence is important on most GM automatics: often, the pump lugs
are driven by a very small part of the TC hub, as the TC tends to be to far
forward. This, combined with the very delicate sintered pump gears is a
problem waiting to happen. In other words, be sure of the amount of engagement,
as well as crankshaft end play, noting that cranks seem to shuttle back and 
forth at high revs, at least on SBCs. If you have access to Research Corp.
datasheets it seems to me that they have a good one on this problem of pump
lug engagement.

Jim Davies



















----------
Posted by: emory!sfu.ca!jimd (Jim Davies)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 11:34:43 1993
Subject: Bow Tie
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4750
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

 
Alright what is the difference between the old fuelly type, angular plug
type and bow tie?  Did GM change over to these or are they strictly
aftermarket?  And what about these bow tie blocks?  What makes them
different?  Or are they just 4 bolt mains on an aluminium casting?

----------
Posted by: emory!picard.med.ge.com!bednarek (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 12:40:43 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID (fwd)
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4751
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

Forwarded message:
> From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Mar 30 10:39:47 1993
> 
> David Gunsul says:
> "The Fuely heads ALL came with 2.02/1.60 valves and 64cc's and only came
> on: several high perf. Corvette 327's, the 302 Z28, and the LT1 engine-
> (Corvette, Camaro and Yenko Nova)"
> 
> I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that some document somewhere
> asserts the above, but I had proof by existence that it just isn't
> true.  I used to have a 1964 Impala which came from the factory with
> 202/160 double hump heads.  It also had a mild cam, an AFB, and
> excellent throttle response.
> 
> Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
> ...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
> 
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!merlin.gatech.edu!ucsd!btree!hale (hale)
>  
I had a 66 Impala wagon that was factory ordered with a corvette engine.
It had the 2.02/1.60, 64 cc, double hump heads and a quadra jet.  There
probably weren't too many 66 Impala wagons with that setup.-:)  Had dual
turbos too.  I used to get respect...
Tom Root

----------
Posted by: emory!marie.stat.uga.edu!tom (Tom Root)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 12:46:30 1993
Subject: Another oxygen sensor
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4752
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Just got back from a bit of work in the UK.  I rented the same car I have
been driving here for 15 years -- a Fiesta.  After a 2 hour WFO blast along
the M5 from Exeter to Tewksbury, I thought I'd have a look under the hood.

The 1.3 liter Kent was very similar to mine, but I noticed it had an
oxygen sensor and related electronically controlled carb.  The oxygen
sensor was the one I have been looking for -- a 4 wire job with a long
tail.  Of course I could not get the part number off it!   Too hard to
read, and very hot.  Does anybody know what the number is?  There is no
info on current Fiestas available here.  

Driving in the UK is quite a wake-up.   It is really suprising how much 
ground you can cover when all the traffic is doing 100+mph.  

I found the 13" P600 tires had good turn in, but breakaway was a bit dramatic
for my tastes.  Any recommendations for rent-a-car tires ( yes, select a
car by its tires ) for similar driving?  If you consider this a bit far
for this forum, ignore the question.

	 Frank Evan Perdicaro 				Xyvision Color Systems
      Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today.		101 Edgewater Drive
   inhouse: frank@marvin, x5572				Wakefield MA
outhouse: frank@contex.com, 617-245-4100x5572		018801285

----------
Posted by: emory!marvin.contex.com!frank (Frank Perdicaro)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 12:50:47 1993
Subject: Re: rotary
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4753
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


>> All I have to say is that rotaries for their size cannot be beat for
>> making HP.
>
>You obviously haven't ever played with a GSXR1100 :)
Hee Hee...  I know this isn't a motorcycle group, but we're a bunch
of crazy farts anyway, right?  My 82 GS1100ES (the predecessor to the
GSXR) has undergone some mild changes...  different cams, carbs and exhaust
and now turns 10.5s in the quarter on a street tire!  A friend down at
the beach builds these engines professionally...  his favorite street bike
was a rare '82 Katana with the 1100 engine; punched out to 1500 cc's.
It was cool watching him gag the throttle at 65 mph, disappearing in a puff
of tire smoke!

Too much fun...
JC.  jca@fibercom.com

----------
Posted by: emory!fibercom.com!jca (James "Dude" Akers)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 13:38:24 1993
Subject: SB Chevy Double-Humps
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4754
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

So does this mean that all "double-hump" SB Chevy heads are "fuelie" heads?
I had a '70 Caprice with the 300hp 350 engine that had double-hump heads
and the accessory mounting holes.

Basically I'm asking if all double-hump heads have better port flow and a 
high probablity of big valves?  Did they all have small chambers?

Thanks,
Wynand
    wdepuy@isye.gatech.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!chmsr.isye.gatech.edu!wdepuy (Wynand Crawford Depuy)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 13:43:35 1993
Subject: small block chevy head id
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4755
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

I have a 210 hp 327 out of a 67 camaro. Small journal with 1.94"/1.50"
heads. The casting marks are 2 squared off pyramids.
Jim Davies have never seen these heads. Whats funny is that it came
out of the original camaro with a 4bbl carb NOT a 2bbl
Any comments?

Frank

----------
Posted by: emory!OAS.PSU.EDU!FBS3     (SZYMKOWSKI.FRANK)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 13:48:27 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4756
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


----------
Posted by: emory!wam.umd.edu!liane (Liane Marie Langbehn)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 13:53:47 1993
Subject: Re: rotary
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4757
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> > All I have to say is that rotaries for their size cannot be beat for
> > making HP.

> You obviously haven't ever played with a GSXR1100 :)

Details! How many HP? An 1100cc rotary (stock 12A) puts up about 100 hp,
and without a turbo can be made to yield about 220 or so. Or did you
mean physical dimensions of the engine?


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com

----------
Posted by: emory!wal.hp.com!lupienj (John Lupien)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 13:58:16 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4758
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> I may be jumping in in the middle again, but TCI makes a Chevy to BOP
-> converter.  It costs about $25; I have one in my garage.  Summmit
-> sells them,

 Last time they listed them, they were in the region of $89.  Will you
take $25 for yours?  
                                                    

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 14:04:35 1993
Subject: Re: Rotary Bashing
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4759
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> GM has a license from NSU/Wankel to produce rotaries.  The 1975 Chevy
-> Monza was supposed to have a rotary, but all rotary plans at GM were
-> dropped when the arab oil embargo hit.

 GM's NSU license expired quite some time ago.  The GMRE (General Motors
Rotary Engine) project was fobbed off on Chevrolet, who intended to put
it in the Vega.  Unfortunately, they ran into cost problems.  The rotary
would cost more than the four to make and the dealer training/service
costs had to be figured in too.  GM was running short on time if they
were to make it to market about the same time as Ford's Pinto, so they
started looking around for a new project manager.  John Z De Lorean took
over, put the GMRE on hold, and grabbed a Pontiac project - a 2.3 liter
four - that he was familiar with from when he was honcho at Pontiac.
Unfortunately, this pissed the engineers at Pontiac off to no end,
having the project appropriated like that, so they basically folded
their hands and told Chevy, "hey, it's your project now, YOU finish it."
Chevy didn't have time to do durability studies or find out why the
engine's oil consumption wasn't too hot; they just stuck it in and went.

 I have an IMechE paper from one of the guys at Cosworth, talking about
how they had co-developed the Vega block with GM, since they needed a
nice, lightweight aluminum block for a race motor.  Unfortunately, I
never found out what that motor was, if it was ever built.  I sort of
wonder what the Cosworth engineers thought of an aluminum block with
cast iron main caps.

 Back to the chase, the GMRE production line had actually been built and
some test runs made.  It sat around for several years collecting dust,
before the plant was reassigned to Delco and used to make power seats.
I kid you not.

 The Borg/Warner T50 transmission had been developed especially for the
GMRE.  I got to talk to one of the development engineers once.  He said
that was why the gear ratios were so strange, because the rotary's power
curve was sort of weird.  BW managed to sell a few T50s anyway, which
were put behind the Cosworth/Vega four (and this, BTW, is *not* the same
engine Cosworth was developing for its own use), some Buick V6s, and
according to Monzilla's owner's manual, some 260 cubic inch Olds Diesels
installed in Monzas.  As far as I know, no Diesels were ever actually
put into L-bodies, but, hey, a little documentation problem was the
least of the L-body's problems.


 Whoops, seems I've run off at the keyboard again...
                                                                                                             

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 14:10:22 1993
Subject: Re: 352
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4760
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

dennis writes in response to:

>> >  Ford hasn't made the 352 for close to thirty years. 

> Gee has it been that long since the Windsor, and Clevland days?

   Perhaps there is some confusion here.  The 351 engines were of two
families, Windsor and Cleveland.  The progression of family tree/cousins is:

   Windsor:  255, 289, 302, 351W     Cleveland:  351, 351M, 400M

   The 352 was from the FE or big block series as listed below:

   FE:  332, 352, 390, 427, 428   where the 427 came in several varieties.

   Still there was one more family of big big blocks:

    429, 460.

   Finally, from vague memory, I believe the Boss 302 was a cleveland variant.

----------
Posted by: Gordon Laird 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 14:14:51 1993
Subject: Re: Chemicals to deal with Rust (SUMMARY) 
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4761
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


Another "chemical" to use on rusted parts is called Corroless. It 
claims to stop rust and primes the metal. I've used it, and have 
good luck with it. 

You can get it from:
The Eastwood Company
580 Lacaster Avenue, Box 296
Malvern, Pennsylvania 19355-0296

catalog requests --- 1-800-345-1178

--
jeff

----------
Posted by: Jeff Garlough 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 15:49:57 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Double-Humps
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4762
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

>
> So does this mean that all "double-hump" SB Chevy heads are "fuelie" heads?
> I had a '70 Caprice with the 300hp 350 engine that had double-hump heads
> and the accessory mounting holes.
>
> Basically I'm asking if all double-hump heads have better port flow and a
> high probablity of big valves?  Did they all have small chambers?
>
> Thanks,
> Wynand
>     wdepuy@isye.gatech.edu
>
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!chmsr.isye.gatech.edu!wdepuy (Wynand Crawford Depuy)
>
>
>

I have had a few replies to my inquiry about the heads I have that
seem to belong to a 307.  The consensus is that these are probably
small, 1.75" valve heads.  I didn't mention that these heads do have
the double hump markings on the front, which is why I was a little
confused about them.

My guess is that double hump castings are large port ones, and may or
may not have large valves to go with it.  I should be pulling these
off soon, and I'll let ya know what I find.

Kevin.

----------
Posted by: Kevin Fultz 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 15:55:44 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4763
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu


-> The early double bump heads were all the same casting, but they were
-> finished in two ways;

 How early are we talking about, here?  I've seen quite a few variants.
                

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 16:00:39 1993
Subject: Re: TH700-R4 and TH200-4R
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4764
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

A letter reply in the April Hot Rod gave another source for adapters
for the TH700-R4.  Many engines are reportedly supported, even the 5.0L
FORD.

Auto-Rite Transmissions, 15201 Oxnard St., Units E & F, Van Nuys, CA
91411.  818/988-2167, Gene Christensen is the proprietor.

-- 
Mark Walker			| I daydream about fusing two Buick 	
mwalker@chama.eece.unm.edu.	| V6s into a V12 and stuffing it into a	
505/277-3688  (home 899-0644)	| chopped 'n dropped '53 Buick Super...	
Albuquerque, NM			| 	Am I sick, or what?		

----------
Posted by: emory!lynx.unm.edu!chama.eece.unm.edu!mwalker (Mark Walker)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 16:06:00 1993
Subject: Re: SB Chevy Head ID
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4765
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> Anyone built their own flowbench?  The plans in David Vizard's book
> look interesting.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kevin.
> 
What is the name of this book?  I don't think I have seen this one around 
here.  Sounds quite interesting, though.

thx

-greg

-- 
Greg Butler			"That light couldn'a been no redder!"
		-Told me by a cop

72 Chevelle (4 door)
72 Mercury Cougar XR7
72 Honda CT70

----------
Posted by: emory!eng.umd.edu!floyd (Greg Butler)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Mar 31 16:11:15 1993
Subject: Re: 318
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 4766
X-Archives: ece.rutgers.edu

> >Phil asked
>> 
>>    I was also told there a certain 360 heads which match up perfectly
>>    and increase compression x2.
>
>2 X the compression, that would mean something like from a mild 8.0 to
>16.0 or 10 to 20.  Sombody has to pulling your leg on this one.  And if
>it were true what would you run for fuel.  Aviation gas is expensive 
>these days.
>> 
>No I'm not a mopar man but from what I have heard the 360 was a smog engine
>so I wouldn't expect any improvement with those heads.  My route would be 
>to take the stock heads to a good racing machine shop and you would come
>out ahead dollar wise as well as power wise.
>> 
>dennis
>
(Look out!  The pesky Mopar lurker is back to jump on another misconception!
:-)

The early 360 "J" heads are the same heads as the 72+ 340.  They also are
about the same as the early 340 "X" heads once you open the intake valve to
2.02.  Some of the later 360 heads may be a little more restrictive, but all
340/360 heads have bigger valves than the 273/318.  The current Mopar
Performance ported 360 heads are based on late model castings and supposed to
be quite good.  (And yes, there are cases where bigger valves and runners
aren't an improvement.  That's another discussion entirely, though.)

David Wright - 65 Plymouth Belvedere II 4-door 273
	       74 Dodge Challenger Rallye 360

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Posted by: David Wright