From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Sep  1 00:02:13 1992
Subject: '67 Camaro (really)
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Like I said before, good to be back on the list.
After a year and someodd, time my '67 SS396 is finally on the road.
First time since 81 !!!!!! Looks sharp, decked out in primer/sealer
grey. For those interested combination goes as follows.

Chevy SB 400, .030 Over
KN Filter, Holley 600 DP, Torker II intake, Comp Cams 280 Cam, Pocket ported
993 Casting heads with 2.02/1.60 undercut valves, 9.3:1 calculated compression
forged pistons, 1 5/8 Headers, 2 1/2 Full duals with crossover and Flowmaster 
muffler, HEI/MSD.

Intake port flowed:   	85% of 200 (170 CFM) @ .3in Lift
@ 25in of water		66% of 300 (198 CFM) @ .5in Lift 
 
Backed by 2500 stall, turbo 400, 3.07 posi rear.
	
The carb is subject to change depending on what Mr. Vacumn guage tells me at
WOT. I figure the new performer RPM might be a better choice for a manifold, but
I went with what I had. The gears, of course, are also subject to change.

Haven't hit the track yet (not enough miles), so no official time slips. Seems
to have a good, broad torque curve. I'll probably run next Wed. night for the
first time.
Prize for closest ET prediction.

The ?problem? which I haven't solved yet is, when first started, even on
70 degree days, it wants to be choked. Will run and then die out at idle
without choke/high idle engaged. Once it warms up, it idles fine.
Any comments?

Incidently, car seems to stay planted at 190 deg. once warmed up. The 
thermostat is a 180, I have a 3 core radiator, fan shroud and my trusty
7 blade factory flex fan. So far, I haven't seen the much feared 400 SB
overheating.

						Greg

Ron, you still around? How did the drag Chevelle run once you got things 
resolved. 

----------
Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Sep  1 00:55:08 1992
Subject: Re: Marquete Exhaust Gas Analizer
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>A friend of mine just gave me this old battery powered tester, which he said
>did not work, and apparently he was right. I believe this device uses just 
>an infrared diode/photo sensor ... but who knows.  I'm going to take it apart
>and try to fix it soon, but I wondered if anyone could tell me whether it would
>be even worth my time ... perhaps I should just cook up something with an oxygen

Is that the unit with the meter in an extruded aluminum case and the 
"sensor" in a chrome plated, highly ventillated box?  Think it had
a balance and a zero pot on the front or something like that.
If so, this thing will never work.  It was based on measuring the 
gross thermal conductivity of the exhaust stream.  Problem was
the unit itself was so thermally unstable and so sensitive to 
flow that the reading was meaningless.  I had one of these things and 
spent a lot of time trying to make it work.  Hey, look on the bright
side.  You got a real nice case into which you can install an oxygen
sensor :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Sep  1 13:22:53 1992
Subject: Re:  Brake and fuel line replacement
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Jim Swonger writes:
>	A set of custom stainless lines will last forever if you can get them. 
>	Let me know if you find any; that's how I want to go on mine.


There is a place on Main Street (Rt. 5) in Clarence, NY (about 35 min. outside
of Buffalo, NY) called Stainless Steel Brakes Corp.  From what I hear, they
do custom brake work from master cylinders to calipers.  If there is interest,
I can get the exact address and maybe the phone number.  They have been in
business for as long as I can remember, which means they have been there for
at least 10 or 15 years.

Dave Kroth
kroth@acadia.kodak.com

----------
Posted by: emory!Kodak.COM!kroth (David Kroth)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Sep  1 13:30:42 1992
Subject: '67 Camaro (really)
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Pocket ported 993 Casting heads

 993?  Aren't those late-model 305 open chamber heads?


-> The ?problem? which I haven't solved yet is, when first started, even
-> on 70 degree days, it wants to be choked. Will run and then die out
-> at idle without choke/high idle engaged. Once it warms up, it idles
-> fine. Any comments?

 You are probably running too lean at idle.  If the carb has set up
a long time, you could have crud buildup inside.  That, or you have a
vacuum leak somewhere.


-> Incidently, car seems to stay planted at 190 deg. once warmed up. The
-> thermostat is a 180, I have a 3 core radiator, fan shroud and my

 I'd bet your guage is off.  BTW, small block Chevy engines with the
water temp sender in the side of the head typically read hotter than
ones with the sender on the intake manifold, even on the same guage.
                                                                                                               

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Sep  1 13:48:30 1992
Subject: Brake and fuel line replacement
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> storer.) The question is would it be easier/cheaper to fabricate my
-> own lines or should I seek out factory/aftermarket replacements?

 The rubber parts should be available - the local parts store didn't bat
an eye when I bought a set of hoses for a 1939 Chevrolet last year.

 I don't know about GM, but Ford doesn't stock prebent steel lines.  You
get a coil of tubing with the ends already flared and fitted, and you
get to unroll and bend it yourself.

 Bundy Corp. seems to supply all the aftermarket premade tubing around
here.  I can buy a six foot piece, double flared and with fittings, for
about the same price as an equivalent piece of bare tubing.  At that
price, I'm not about to jerk around with double flaring myself.  The
only time I ever got it right, I found I'd forgotten to put the brass
fitting on first.  
                                                                                                        

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Sep  1 16:58:27 1992
Subject: Re: plasma igition
To: hotrod@dixie.com

A friend of mine is doing Ph.D in Plasma Physics, here is what he said:
--------
Plasma ignition means that they get the fusion, release huge amount
of energy. It happens at T = 10~8 range, so it's difficult because no 
material can hold such high temperature. One way to do is to use 
magnetic field to confine it. 

[ hehe..  Relative to cars, plasma ignition was the hype moniker for one
brand of electronic ignitions back in the 70s and 80s.  Jacobs mentions
it in his book.  BTW, I just finished the Jacobs book.  I feel soiled.
That was absolutely the biggest collection of BS I've ever read.
Look for an expose in PE :-) ]
----------
Posted by: emory!dogwood.botany.uga.edu!jialin
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  2 01:02:15 1992
Subject: Re: plasma igition
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> A friend of mine is doing Ph.D in Plasma Physics, here is what he said:
> --------
> Plasma ignition means that they get the fusion, release huge amount
> of energy. It happens at T = 10~8 range, so it's difficult because no 
> material can hold such high temperature. One way to do is to use 
> magnetic field to confine it. 
> 
> [ hehe..  Relative to cars, plasma ignition was the hype moniker for one
> brand of electronic ignitions back in the 70s and 80s.  Jacobs mentions
> it in his book.  BTW, I just finished the Jacobs book.  I feel soiled.
> That was absolutely the biggest collection of BS I've ever read.
> Look for an expose in PE :-) ]
> ----------
> Posted by: emory!dogwood.botany.uga.edu!jialin
>  

Does Jacobs mention plasma rail plugs?  I'm not sure they meet the above
definition of a plasma ignition, but at least they are based on solid
theory.  In case y'all aren't familiar with rail plugs, they are basically
miniature plasma rail guns in a sparkplug-like housing.  Instead of
having your combustible mixture ignited by a stationary arc, its gets
ignited by a fast moving ball of plasma.  They are supposed to bring
a new meaning to "fast burn" (as well as being quite useful for
high altitude relight of jet engines).  I believe they are still working
on materials for them, not sure if they've come up with something thats
durable enough for production.


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  2 01:11:50 1992
Subject: Re: data acquisition boards 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


> Date:  Tue, 1 Sep 92 17:03 EDT
> From:  hotrod@Dixie.COM (The Hotrod List)
> 
> 
>  John and I have discussed flow benches and instrumentation recently.
> Rather than writing notes on paper, I thought it might be nice to see
> what was available for data acquisition boards for the IBM PC, since I
> have an extra machine I can stick in the (under construction) garage.

>  The few places I found nearly gave me sticker shock.  I ain't payin'
> more than the cost of the bench just for a data board.  Has Midnight
> Engineering or Micro Cornucopia (yeah, I know Micro C is gone) ever
> covered this type of stuff?
>                                                                     

> ----------
> Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
>  


Yeah.  This stuff is expensive for the quality.  If you can wait a while,
I am planning to build my own.  I have a couple of computer hobbyist mags
that describe parts and circuits.  I will dig them out tonight and send
some info.

What sort of resolution and conversion time are you looking for?  Now that
you have said "infinite" and "instant", maybe I should rephrase that as
what are the minimums you can tolerate.  It will be fast enough to
reasonably follow a throttle position sensor :-).  I think 8 bits is good
enough for now, although you never seem to have enough.  Another problem
is the noise from the switching power supplies.  I am considering using an
external car battery to provide the analog reference voltage rather than
trying to quiet down the PeeCee supply.  You want sample and hold, too?
How many channels?

Of course, now that I offered I have to say that I don't do MushDOS
programming, only UN*X.  Of course, this may be a good time to learn since I
blew my recent $500 allowance on engine parts and am now begging electronics
suppliers for samples.  May take a while before I get this board put
together.


	-- Dan

----------
Posted by: Dan Malek 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  2 01:12:08 1992
Subject: Re: Car Alarms
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>Don't waste your money on a commercial alarm.  Design and build your
>own so that the thieves don't know how it works.

Absolutely.  If the objective is to keep some scum from driving off 
with your car, consider mounting some critical component so it can be
removed as an "ignition switch".  for example, if your car uses the HEI
ignition, you could move the HEI module inside the passenger compartment,
mount it on a little slice of aluminum stock and rig it with a connector
so you can simply take it with you.  Same with prom packs on 
ECUs.  Fords are a bit tougher but you get the idea.  When you remove 
something that cannot simply be jumpered around, the car's not gonna
move unless towed.

For things like stereos, it gets somewhat more complicated.  I don't believe
alarms will seriously stop the punks.  I'm quite fond of teargas booby
traps and such stuff :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  2 05:49:07 1992
Subject: Re: plasma igition
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Does Jacobs mention plasma rail plugs?  I'm not sure they meet the above
>definition of a plasma ignition, but at least they are based on solid
>theory.  In case y'all aren't familiar with rail plugs, they are basically
>miniature plasma rail guns in a sparkplug-like housing.  Instead of
>having your combustible mixture ignited by a stationary arc, its gets
>ignited by a fast moving ball of plasma.  

Nah.  Couldn't expect Jacobs to write about anything truely advanced
technologicly advanced.  Everything he talks about, except for a single
pararagraph forray into microwave ignition, uses conventional 
plugs.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  2 21:38:04 1992
Subject: Re: data acquisition boards
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> 
> > Date:  Tue, 1 Sep 92 17:03 EDT
> > From:  hotrod@Dixie.COM (The Hotrod List)
> > 
> > 
> >  John and I have discussed flow benches and instrumentation recently.
> > Rather than writing notes on paper, I thought it might be nice to see
> > what was available for data acquisition boards for the IBM PC, since I
> > have an extra machine I can stick in the (under construction) garage.
> 
> > Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
> >  
> Yeah.  This stuff is expensive for the quality.  If you can wait a while,
> I am planning to build my own.  I have a couple of computer hobbyist mags
> that describe parts and circuits.  I will dig them out tonight and send
> some info.
> 
> Of course, now that I offered I have to say that I don't do MushDOS
> programming, only UN*X.  Of course, this may be a good time to learn since I
> blew my recent $500 allowance on engine parts and am now begging electronics
> suppliers for samples.  May take a while before I get this board put
> together.
> 
> 
> 	-- Dan
> ----------
> Posted by: Dan Malek 

Try begging Motorola for a 68HC11E9 EVBU (evaluation board unit).
The 68HC11 has built in eeprom, monitor, 2 serial ports, and the EVBU
has it hooked up and ready to use or modify (there is a breadboard
area on the EVBU).  I used one of these boards a few years ago
for data aquistion and transmission (via TNC and ham radio) in a
(solar powered) race car, and it worked great (although motorola
did the modifications (more A/D channels than stock) and programming
(for the 68HC11) for us).  It was a trick little setup...  hit the power
switch and it would start trying to initiate a connection with the
computer in the chase van, and when it finally connected it would
start relaying 40 someodd 8 bit channels of data.  No operator intervention
was required unless the connection was broken, in which case he'd have
to hit the reset button.


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  2 13:34:20 1992
Subject: Old Magazine Sources
To: hotrod@dixie.com

For anyone looking for old car books or magazines, here are two good sources:

"Mister Magazine"
Tom Roberts
RD 2   Box 119
Upper Black Eddy, PA 18972
(215)294-9051      7-10 PM  EST


MotoMedia
Stephen White
PO Box 489
Lansdowne, PA 19050-0489
(215)623-0153

I've purchased many old magazines from them at swap meets over the years.
Their prices are reasonable, they will search for specific titles, and they
do mail order.  

I'm particularly fond of the pocket-sized car mags from the fifties and early 
sixties, and they usually have scads of them.

----------
Posted by: Dave Tartaglia 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  2 13:44:40 1992
Subject: Re: data acquisition boards
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Some miscellaneous ramblings on data aquisition:

1)  The price of DAQ boards for PCs are coming down.  I paid about 
$500.00 for a Keithly Instruments (formerly MetraByte) 8 channel 
converter, and I think "clones" are avaiable for about $300.00 and 
I bet they'll end up below $100.00 eventually.

2)  Noise and interference is definitely a problem.  I used my 
system to measure bearing vibration in a power plant and had lotsa 
stray pickup due to poorly shielded cables (post processing the 
data took care of some of it).

3)  Linear Technology Inc.  has LOTS of really neat products for 
data aquisition.  you can fit a medium resolution, medium speed, 8 
channel D/A converter into a 25 pin D shell.  I don't know if this 
has ever been done, I just did it on paper.  For more info call 
them at 408-432-1900 and ask for the "Linear Applications 
Handbook, A Guide to Linear Circuit Design" (my copy is from 1990 
so I'm sure they have more good stuff).

4)  I just got the latest Analog Devices Special Linear Reference 
Manual (617-329-4700).  Included is the AD22030 Monolithic Dual 
Input Knock sensor interface circuit, AD22100 Monolithic 
Temperature senso, ADXL02 (50) Monolithic +-2G (+-50G) 
Accelerometers. 
===============================================================================
|  Gary Huntress			|  "I'm not a member of an organized  |
|  Naval Undersea Warfare Center	|   political party, I'm a democrat"  |
|  Newport RI				|				      |	
|  (401) 841-7839			|    My Brother			      |
|  HUNTRESS@NPT.NUSC.NAVY.MIL		|   ( and Will Rogers )		      |
|=============================================================================|
|     Tension-  Finding yourself behind a Pinto and in front of an Audi 5000  |
===============================================================================

----------
Posted by: "HUNTRESS GARY B" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Sep  5 00:24:54 1992
Subject: Re: Ultimate theft preventive
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>	What I want to know is, can the 'puter be damaged by multiply removing
>and inserting it, what with the sudden interruption and resumption of power?
>I assume that if I ground myself, all will be well.  Given the high theft
>rates prevailing here in NJ these days, I need to have something quick!

I would not take the whole computer out if I were you.  Most modern
ECUs have the ability to learn the engine's needs based on how
you drive and from the lambda sensor feedback.  If you remove power from
the box, all that learning is lost.  You can safely remove the PROM.
There is a company whose name escapes me that makes a multiple socket
prom holder designed to get the prom up where you can easily change it.
I know they advertise in Turbo Magazine.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Sep  5 03:48:22 1992
Subject: Re: Theft Prevent.(prom switch)
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> I would not take the whole computer out if I were you.  Most modern
> ECUs have the ability to learn the engine's needs based on how
> you drive and from the lambda sensor feedback.  If you remove power from
> the box, all that learning is lost.  You can safely remove the PROM.
> There is a company whose name escapes me that makes a multiple socket
> prom holder designed to get the prom up where you can easily change it.
> I know they advertise in Turbo Magazine.

They sell PROM "switches" your favorite & mine...J.C. Witney. I think
they also sell the relocation kit. 

DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)

----------
Posted by: emory!wrs.com!johnson (David Johnson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Sep  7 00:28:15 1992
Subject: Rolls Knardly Lives!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Announcing the acquisition of a genuine Rolls Knardly (Rolls down one
hill and kn'ardly get up the next.)  Rolls is 5000 lbs of
screaming Detroit Iron, a fine specimen of Mopar engineering. 
What am I talking about? Why a 68 Plymouth Fury III.  Helped
along by a shrieking Mopar 315 small block and fed combustibles
by one of Holly's finest aftermarket  single barrels and
snuffing the exhaust out through a lovely 2" pipe, these 5000
lbs of pig iron jump from zero to sixty in, oh, about  an
afternoon.  Not to worry though, as whatever engine I choose to 
replace it with - and the car it came out of - will fit with
room to  spare in the cavernous trunk.  I think I found a Toyota
in the cracks as I cleaned it out. Today's kids can only marvel
at  the technology necessary to smuggle in a whole high school
class to the drivein movies.  ("Drive-in, what's that", they
say.)This thing is decked out!  Love seats (bench, so yous can
neck), A/C, a fine AM radio that doesn't work, headlight and
ignition switch on the dash and dimmer on the floor where God
meant for 'em to be.  Enough room in the back seat to start a
family in -  and then have room to carry 'em. 

Ok guys, so now that I've got this monster, you Mopar guys can start
telling me some things to do to it.  No, firbombs or Napalm won't do.
I want to make it not wallow (I hesitate to call it "handling") and I want it 
to do 0-60 in single digit times.  Well maybe 12s.  This is going to be the 
testbed for some of my fancy electronics.  PE Magazine just got its 
first Mascot - a hog!  


Let's see.  Quick stop by the airport for some hydraulics, some fur for the 
dash, fuzzy dice, chain steering wheel...  Hmmm...

Wallowingly yours,
John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Sep  8 18:23:39 1992
Subject: Re:  Rolls Knardly Lives!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>at  the technology necessary to smuggle in a whole high school
>class to the drivein movies.  ("Drive-in, what's that", they
>say.)This thing is decked out!  Love seats (bench, so yous can
>neck), A/C, a fine AM radio that doesn't work, headlight and
>ignition switch on the dash and dimmer on the floor where God
>meant for 'em to be.  Enough room in the back seat to start a
>family in -  and then have room to carry 'em. 
>
>Ok guys, so now that I've got this monster, you Mopar guys can start
>telling me some things to do to it.  No, firbombs or Napalm won't do.
>I want to make it not wallow (I hesitate to call it "handling") and I want it 
>to do 0-60 in single digit times.  Well maybe 12s.  This is going to be the 
>testbed for some of my fancy electronics.  PE Magazine just got its 
>first Mascot - a hog!  
>
>
>Let's see.  Quick stop by the airport for some hydraulics, some fur for the 
>dash, fuzzy dice, chain steering wheel...  Hmmm...
>
>Wallowingly yours,
>John

Hey John, sounds like a nice car!  My driver is very similar, but a little
lighter, and a 273 instead of 318.

The front suspension rubber is probably rotted.  Symptoms on the Chryslers
are: weaving when driving parallel to ridges in the road, big thunks when
you hit the brakes, pulls different directions when you hit the brakes,
and so on.  Main problem on mine have been the front strut bushings,
which should be 1 inch nuts holding a rubber bushing on a strut near
the radiator.  Just for yuks, try and tighten that nut to see if the
pull goes away - it did on my car.

I'm looking for suspension components, but I might be out of luck
on fancy things like a swaybar (unless others have an idea).  There
is a company, JST, selling polyurethene bushing front suspension kits
for Chrylsers, I may order one of these just for fun.  It can't hurt, as
mine is shot to hell anyhow.  They also advertise sway bars, which I will
try and pick up as well (mine is a 65 B body, which is a little out of
date).

I was looking at engine upgrades, and it seems Direct Connection
is offering a good 360 engine rated at 300 or 350 HP (two versions).
They are probably expensive (anyone know cost yet?), but just a point
of reference.

I bought the mopar engine book and will also pick up the chassis
book tomorrow, so I should have most of the Direct Connection performance
stuff of interest to me (and also you).

Your car is obviously a good sled to put a 440 in, and 727 trannys
can be had for fairly cheap ($100-$200).  Since it is a later car,
it should be an easier swap as far as finding proper mounts and such.
318s are fun to play with too, however...  Pick up some 360 heads,
a four barrel, and headers, and it should do much better.

I used to have a Fury II with a 383, but the engine mounts were
broken so I couldn't accelerate very fast.  Good thing the throttle
didn't stick when the engine hit the hood...

Paul Anderson
pha@hri.com

----------
Posted by: emory!hri.com!pha (Paul Anderson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  9 13:58:09 1992
Subject: Rolls Knardly Lives!
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> testbed for some of my fancy electronics.  PE Magazine just got its
-> first Mascot - a hog!

 Heh heh.  Now you need to look for any Chrysler product with a 440.
Get the transmission with it, and make sure the engine comes with
brackets for the power steering pump and A/C.

 Go down to your local Mopar dealer and get a Direct Connection catalog.
Then look for a book titled something like "How to Make Your Mopar
Handle" from either Steve Smith Autobooks or HP.

 With a minimum of work, the 440 should get you well into the single
digits for 0-60.  Your only limit will be traction.


 The 235 six in my Bel Air gets 14.5 on the highway.  I keep thinking,
"Gee, I could match with with a 454 if I did a little fiddling..."
                                                                                                

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  9 14:05:40 1992
Subject: new stuff
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 Gee, I have only seen a few messages from the list in the last four
days.  Is John falling behind?  Is dixie eating my messages?  People got
tired of listening to me babble, so they started a new list?

 Anyway, I got a new catalog in today.  B-H-J Precision, Newark CA (510)
797-6780.  They claim they'll make a steel NHRA-spec harmonic balancer
for anything, prices seem to be around $225-$275.  They'll also make
torque plates, pressure check plates, and valve job plates (tapped holes
instead of through holes) for practically anything, prices in about the
same range.  If you want torque plates for a Ford or your old
Hispano-Suiza, they're the people to call.

 Most of the tools are quite simple and could be easily duplicated if
you had a Bridgeport mill handy.  They even gave good pictures.  
Many of the specialty tools are oriented to the small block Chevy, but
there are some interesting goodies, like an alignment tool for narrowing
Ford 9 inch, GM 12 bolt, or Dana 60 rear ends.  It's a big ground steel
bar with aluminum bushings that go into the axle and carrier bearing
bores.  Just slide the bar into the housing, tighten the carrier
bearings, and start welding.
                                                  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  9 14:28:11 1992
Subject: GIF followup
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Sorry, sent wrong address already
ftp sunset.cse.nau.edu

----------
Posted by: emory!sunset.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep  9 16:29:44 1992
Subject: PST
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I and a friend have both ordered from PST. Guess what, both orders 
were screwed up. I told the guy specifically the parts I needed 
including measurements. When I phoned to complain, I told him I still 
needed the same size I previously ordered. This has nothing to do with
the quality of parts however. I have the graphite impreg. ploy 
bushings and they work! Be prepared for a stiffer ride. I suppose I 
should introduce myself to the list. I'm an avid motorhead liking some
new, but mostly old cars. This does not mean I don't like high-tech. 
My daily transportation is either a 64 Bonneville Convertable or my 89
GT Stang. Street car is 66 GTO with camaro disk and spindles. For you 
guys who read Car Craft, my setup is much like HO Racing's. Engine is 
455 + .030. Cam, manifold, holley, headers, etc...  Gear ratio is 3.55
with a turbo 400. Best 1/8 ET is 8.26. I have 4.11's but am waiting to 
get a real urge before the conversion.


So what types of Hotrods do you guys have?
-- 

       ____  ____  __  __ __  ____         
      /  __ |  _ \|  ||  /   |          mark r lanier     
      \__  \|  __/|  ||      |  -       b8!spike!mark
       ____/|__|  |__||__\__ |____      mark@spike.b8.ingr.com
                               


----------
Posted by: emory!spike.b8.ingr.com!mark (Mark Lanier)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 10 12:54:13 1992
Subject: Big spark plug gaps
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> I suppose you have to figure in mechanical clearance... after all, an
-> interference fit between the piston and plug results in a zero gap
-> pretty quickly.  When is too much gap REALLY too much?

 If you're worried, go down to the local rebuilder's and ask to see a
cylinder head from a similar engine.  In general, engines without domed
pistons don't have plug clearance problems.

 In my experience, going past .060 or .080 usually doesn't do anything,
at least that you could tell without a dyno.
                                                                 

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 10 14:03:49 1992
Subject: Re:  Big spark plug gaps
To: hotrod@dixie.com


	-> I suppose you have to figure in mechanical clearance... after all, an
	-> interference fit between the piston and plug results in a zero gap
	-> pretty quickly.  When is too much gap REALLY too much?

	 If you're worried, go down to the local rebuilder's and ask to see a
	cylinder head from a similar engine.  In general, engines without domed
	pistons don't have plug clearance problems.

	 In my experience, going past .060 or .080 usually doesn't do anything,
	at least that you could tell without a dyno.
	           

I havn't been following this thread too closely, so please disregard
this msg if its already been suggested.

>From what I recall, my old Mopar performance books suggested a minimum
of 0.100" clearance between the piston and the head/valve/plug.  They 
suggested measuring this with some modeling clay with an old head 
gasget and the head torqued to spec.  this is pretty easy to do if
you're doing a complete rebuild.  Its been a while since I did
my last enging build (1988) so I don't remember all the details from
the book.  I did use the method though.  I installed the crank, one
piston (no rings, old bearings), timing chaing and gears, camshaft,
head, valve gear and valves (for the same cylinder the piston is installed
in ;).  I put a 1/4" slab of clay on top of the piston (before I put
the head on ;).  Then I rotated the crank slowly by hand.  The valves,
and the tip of the plug made an impression in the clay.  The clearance
was easily checked when the enging was disassembled.

Mopar suggested cutting slots in the piston dome to provide the necessary
clearance.

----------
Posted by: emory!Kodak.COM!kroth (David Kroth)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 10 15:22:23 1992
Subject: Header paint
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> I need a reccomendation for a quality, high-temperature paint
-> that will work well on headers.  Any suggestions?

 I've tried nearly everything, including sandblasting brand new headers
and drenching them with VHT header paint.  The Hooker "lifetime"
aluminized headers lasted a few months before they started rusting, and
so forth.

 I found something called "Barbecue Grill Paint" at the hardware store.
It lasts a bit longer than the VHT, and it's much cheaper.


-> I once heard
-> that ATF, after a few applications, will produce a tough
-> protective coating that will prevent rust.

 One of the speed shops around here recommends that.  My brother tried
it, but he sold that particular car before we found out how long it
would last.  Make *certain* you're out of the garage when you fire the
car up, or you'll think the engine just caught fire!
                                                                                                        

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 10 17:55:09 1992
Subject: Re: Header Paint
To: hotrod@dixie.com

emory!ichips.intel.com!mikel writes:
>Dave Kroth writes:
>>   I need a reccomendation for a quality, high-temperature paint
>>that will work well on headers.  Any suggestions?
>>
>>   If you have any other ideas for other types of protective
>>coatings for headers, I'd like to hear about those too.  I once
>>heard that ATF, after a few applications, will produce a tough
>>protective coating that will prevent rust.  I am sceptical, however.
>>
>
>
>Most motorcycle shops carry a lot paint in spray cans specifically for
>headers.  I've used something called "Fast Black".  I think it's by PJ1. 
>DEFINITELY KEEP AWAY FROM IT.  My headers were rusting again after less than
>a year, even though I went throught the trouble of oven-baking the paint when
>I was done.
>
>I've also seen header wrap.  It looks like a guaze bandage, but is made of
>fiberglass(?), and wraps around the headers.  It is supposed to insulate the
>pipes, keeping the engine compartment cooler, and keeping the exhaust gas hot
>so it doesn't lose any velocity.  The company also sells some kind of shellac
>that covers the wrap and prevents it from fraying (the end result looks
>ceramic).  I haven't used the wrap stuff, but a few top teams do (Team
>Valvoline Suzuki comes to mind).

	A buddy of mine has the header wrap on an EXUP Yamaha FZR 600.  Seems
to work ok.  The bike is fast enough that I was shaking for 15 minutes after
taking a ride (Can I do it again, huh, huh, can I? :-).

	On high temperature paint:  You can get high temp aluminum paint (yes,
it contains aluminum) fairly cheaply.  I have a can of it, but I can't
remember the name.  I got mine at "Keystone Plumbing," which is Pittsburgh's
version of a five and dime hardware store.  Try your local equivalent.

Later,
Chris BeHanna	DoD# 114  KotHLF    1983 H-D FXWG Wide Glide (She lives!)
behanna@syl.nj.nec.com	            (I need another bike for this space!)

Disclaimer:  Now why would NEC agree with any of this anyway?

----------
Posted by: emory!syl.nj.nec.com!behanna
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 10 18:03:12 1992
Subject: Re: Header paint
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 There are places which will apply a ceramic/metallic coating to your
headers, new or used. Here's one from an ad in the back of Car Cruft

Jet-Hot High Temp Coatings 1-800-432-3379 free catalog

 Don't know how this affects the header itself; if the problem is erosion/
weakening due to increased internal temperature then any of this is not
helpful.

 I wish I could find a rams'-horn cast iron exhaust manifold for the
big block Buick. Something like a shorty 4-2-1. They have them for
Chevies :(

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 10 18:11:50 1992
Subject: Re: Should this project be attempted?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Plan to do some body stiffening.  The current 225hp stang has undergone several 
stiffening modifications due to weaknesses found in the floorpans and panels 
below the seats.

Even with these mods, the chasis is still a little flimsy for the 5.0 - I would 
recommend some big time subframe connectors and/or a roll cage.  Make sure you 
really know alot about welding or know someone who does and is willing to help 
you.  That 83 chasis will flex in ways that would make a yoga instructor faint.

Looks like a lot of work.  If I were to build a hot rod 83-92 stang, I'd build 
up a 302 - you can get a lot of hp out of these things and you won't have a 
front-heavy car.  Plus there's lots of stuff available for the 302; lots of 
cam's, a couple of superchargers, the GT40 intake and heads, headers, you name 
it.

Of course if you could get an _aluminum_ 429, you'd eliminate the weight 
problem and away you go (literally).  And there's something about the feeling 
you get when you drive a 400 something engine as opposed to a 300 something.

 
For transmissions I'd recommend a top-loader, or the new 'top loader' clone 
that is lighter and has 5 speeds (name fails me now)

For rear ends, the rage now for 5.0's is the rear end from a Lincoln LSC - it's 
tougher than the 8.8 on the current stang AND has disk brakes (which you will 
need in a big way)

--
Got a silver spoon, on a chain.  Got a grand piano to prop up my mortal 
remains.
---
MTM 'Matt the Mentat' Walsh
matt@walsh.dme.battelle.org

----------
Posted by: MTM 'Matt the Mentat' Walsh 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 11 00:29:42 1992
Subject: Should this project be attempted?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> I have an 83' Mustang L (2.3 liter, manual 4 speed) with a fairly
-> nice interior and good body.  This car was acquired cheaply and is
-> paid for. I also have at my disposal, a 429 engine from a 73'

 Total Performance, (313)468-3673, makes a kit for this.  A rear-sump
oil pan and headers.  I got a flyer from them a few weeks ago
advertising the kit.

 According to them, the 429 fits like the car was made for it as long as
you have the rear-sump pan.  They said you had to crossbreed a car
manifold on one side and a truck manifold on the other, or else buy
their headers.  I don't know what kind of clearance troubles they were
running into, but back in the days when we did V8 Pintos we just swapped
the manifolds left to right and let the pipes exit from the front.
Worked fine and avoided steering and firewall trouble.
                                                                                                            

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 11 00:32:51 1992
Subject: Spark plug gaps and pistons
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> The 1967 430 Buick motor I have apart has something I have not seen
-> on any of my other engines. In the center of the piston there is a
-> raised "nipple" directly below the plug. The heads are very small

 Lots of Buick pistons - even aftermarket ones - seem to have that.
I always thought it was just a relic of the machining process.


-> The timing on this engine is supposed to be 2 degrees (yes, 2) BTDC.
-> Is this little ring a knock suppression scheme? It looks like it

 For *two* degrees max advance, it looks like it might be a knock
*source*.
 The Buick V6/V8 combustion chamber is one of the best of the American
pushrod engines.  The Buicks generally don't need a whole lot of
advance.
                                                                                                                 

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 11 00:50:19 1992
Subject: Re: Should this project be attempted?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Plan to do some body stiffening.  The current 225hp stang has
-> undergone several stiffening modifications due to weaknesses found in
-> the floorpans and panels below the seats.

 That's mostly for what Ford calls "NVH" - Noise, Vibration, and
Harshness.  There should be no trouble with the big block.


-> you.  That 83 chasis will flex in ways that would make a yoga
-> instructor faint.

 That's not unusual.  Slap a big set of sway bars on most cars, and you
can't even open the door if the car's not parked on a level surface.
Though not particularly desirable, the flexibility really won't hurt
anything, not for a street machine, anyway.


-> Looks like a lot of work.

 Not much more than locating all the parts to change from a 2300 to a
5.0 in the first place.


-> If I were to build a hot rod 83-92 stang,
-> I'd build up a 302 - you can get a lot of hp out of these things and
-> you won't have a front-heavy car.  Plus there's lots of stuff
-> available for the 302; lots of cam's, a couple of superchargers, the
-> GT40 intake and heads, headers, you name

 Yeah.  You're talking a thousand dollars or more over the basic cost
of the swap, just to bring the thing up to the power level of a *stock*
429.  Not a very good tradeoff.


-> For transmissions I'd recommend a top-loader, or the new 'top loader'
-> clone that is lighter and has 5 speeds (name fails me now)

 TopLoaders are incredibly expensive ($750+) around here.  Plus he has
to have a 429 TopLoader - nothing else will quite fit.  Plus a flywheel,
pressure plate, bellhousing, shifter, and some means of adapting the
pushrod-actuated 429 clutch to the Mustang's cable scheme.  For under
$500, any major trans builder will sell you a complete big block C6,
ready to drop in.  If he were to build a 302 he'd still be in trouble -
the T5 is already beyond Borg-Warner's rated torque limit behind a
*stock* 5.0; the SROD isn't much better.


-> For rear ends, the rage now for 5.0's is the rear end from a Lincoln
-> LSC - it's tougher than the 8.8 on the current stang AND has disk
-> brakes (which you will need in a big way)

 That sounds like a nice addition, and it will give him 5-bolt wheels,
right?
                            

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Sep 14 17:47:24 1992
Subject: 429 powered Mustang
To: hotrod@dixie.com

This did not make it to the list either so here goes again:


I've gotten a good response on this project so far but still have not heard
from anyone who has actually done it.  Looks like just the kind of project
that needs to be done (at least once anyway).  Not to say that NO ONE has 
done it before, but it sure looks like something that has not been overdone.
I'd like to summerize what I have learned so far and make a few additional
comments:

1) Frame stiffining:  Some have said absolutely necessary while others have
   claimed this may not be needed.  I do not plan to do anything like this
   at first.  FIRST, I want to get the engine in place and operating, might
   even leave in the dinky rear end for initial testing.  Once this project
   looks like it will be succesful, sub-frame connections and cage will be  
   mandatory.

2) 302 vs 429:  I did not intend to let this turn into a 302 vs. 429 
   discussion.  I already have the 429 (which BTW, runs REAL good in my
   74' F100 P.U.).  Besides the 302 bit has already been done, and done, and
   done again.  What I want is a DURABLE engine which will be streetable
   yet make enough power for the drag strip.  A 302 built to the hilt will
   be too close to marginal limits to be of much good for long term use.

3) Kits and Pieces:  Dave Williams mentioned that Total Performance makes
   a kit which sounds similar to the one I asked about from Kauffman.  The
   literature from T.P. is on it's way to me.  Also, several people mentioned
   an article in a publication called Super Ford.  I have not heard of this
   and am not sure where to get it at this moment.  Does anyone have any info
   on this, or better yet, still have the article that I could have/borrow?
   
4) Transmissions:  Let me insert a couple lines from Dave Williams here;

> TopLoaders are incredibly expensive ($750+) around here.  Plus he has
>to have a 429 TopLoader - nothing else will quite fit.  Plus a flywheel,
>pressure plate, bellhousing, shifter, and some means of adapting the
>pushrod-actuated 429 clutch to the Mustang's cable scheme.  For under
>$500, any major trans builder will sell you a complete big block C6,
>ready to drop in.  If he were to build a 302 he'd still be in trouble -
>the T5 is already beyond Borg-Warner's rated torque limit behind a
>*stock* 5.0; the SROD isn't much better.

  First, I', not sure what I got right now or what a "TopLoader" is.  Bolted
  up to the 429 right now is what appears to be a standard Ford 3-speed manual.
  It does NOT "quite fit" and I did not put it there.  I will possibly use
  it for a little while at first but I had not thought about the differences
  in clutch actuators.  The existing 3-speed does indeed utilize a push rod
  system while the Mustang is cable operated.  Any suggestions on how to get
  around this without redesigning everything?  Ultimately, a C6 with a high-
  stall converter will be used.

5) Rear end:  This will remain stock for a brief testing period, then, as
   suggested, it will be replaced with a 9" from a Lincoln.  Of course, it
   will then be time to think about narrowing the rear axles, adding the sub-
   frame connections and roll cage, tubs, etc..

6) Front suspension:  No one brought this up.  I suppose everyone usually
   goes to a Mustang II suspension?  It is obviously going to need to be
   low, light and strong.  Preferably something simple.

This post is getting too long so I'll cut it short.  I'll try to limit any
following discussions to individual categories (engine mods, kits, trans, 
etc..).  I hope that it is now obvious why I don't take this to the Mustang
list.  The only thing that will remain Mustang will be the outer body and
some of the interior.  Thanks for all the input so far.  Although I have 
worked on cars for 20 years, this will be my first all out attempt to "build"
a car.  I greatly appreciate any and all input.

Dwight Brantley         brantley@falab1.b21.ingr.com
Intergraph, Corp.
Huntsville, AL

----------
Posted by: emory!falab1.b21.ingr.com!brantley (Dwight Brantley)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep 16 00:20:15 1992
Subject: Re: 429 powered Mustang
To: hotrod@dixie.com



>>Still one problem though, what's a good way to make the Mustang's cable
>>clutch actuator work on the push rod actuated system of the TopLoader without
>>changing out the whole pedal arrangement currently in the Mustang?

Sometimes I think this is the worst part of a swap... it's always seems like 
the small stuff gets you in the end.  It may be that you're better off with 
that C6 after all.

Here are a couple of suggestions, but neither is very straightforward.

The first and simplest way is to get a bellhousing from either Lakewood or
McLeod , which has provisions for putting the clutch arm pivot on the other side
of the input shaft, (or modifying your BH), then using a late model mustang
clutch arm.  Not sure if it would fit with your current clutch and pressure
plate, and whether it would have enough throw - you'd have to do some measuring
and see, although you could probably vary the height of the pivot somewhat.
I saw an article in HRM some few years ago on adapting some other trannies to
the 302 in this way. Someone even made a kit for putting this setup on early
302's, since they don't make the old clutch actuating stuff anymore - it may
have been Kaufmann and Associates, I could look it up if I still have the 
magazine around.

The second way is similar to what I did on my 302 Pinto - Hooker Headers makes
an adaptor kit which is basically a lever arm, one side of which the cable is
connected to instead of to the clutch arm, the other side pushes a rod onto
the clutch arm.  It looks pretty simple to make, using 3/8" steel.
I'll give a picture below:


                                    bracket for end of cable, on pivot bracket
                                     /         lever arm
                          . S=======]------[] / 
                         .           \     ||
                        .            \ \___||___ 
                       .              \|___()___|
                      .                    || \ pivot and bracket mounts 
                      .                    ||               to engine
                       .                   []>>>>>>{}
                        .                     /      \ 
                          .           push rod        clutch arm
                            .
                             .          |
                              S=========|----|
                               /        |    |
                    clutch cable       /     O  clutch pedal
                                firewall     | /
                                             |
                                             |-) 

The pivot and bracket mount bolts to a threaded hole on the side of the block
near the oil pan and belhousing surfaces on the 302 on one side, and to a
bellhousing bolt on the other.  Don`t know if the 429 has similar mounts,
although if the bracket is beefy enough, you could use a couple of belhousing
bolts. The clutch cable remains connected to the pedal, but at the other end,
it connects to the lever arm with the same clevis that connects to the pedal.
Your Mustang probably has a different end, but shouldn't be hard to adapt.

On the other end of the lever arm, a standard Ford adjustable push rod is held
into the clutch arm with a spring. This setup is pretty adjustable, and it's
worked well for me for a number of years. However, there may not be room for it
depending on where your headers run. The lever arm measured about 10" in
length, with equal distances on either side of the pivot, but I modified it
to 15", with 2/3's on the cable side to decrease pedal effort.



Also, about your question to go to Mustang II springs, etc., 

I would say no, the Mustang II stock setup held a 302, but I'm pretty sure
the weight of the 429 will be far too much for it to handle.  You would
probably be better off measuring the diameter of your springs, and going to 
a wrecking yard to find a set of springs of the same diameter from a car
that came with that size engine, or a car of similar weight characteristics
to what yours will be with the 429 installed. You may have to cut the springs
down, but as this will increase the spring rate, it will help with handling
as well.

Hope this helps...

----------
Posted by: emory!wv.MENTORG.COM!derekd (Derek Deeter)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 17 19:44:45 1992
Subject: Re: engine running hot
To: hotrod@dixie.com

dxs writes:
>the 265 v8 in my 56 chevy wagon runs hot.  it was just rebuilt and
>i got a used radiator which i had cleaned.  i added a flex fan and
>that seemed to help a little.  it was suggested that i use a spacer
>to move the fan closer the radiator.  i noticed that the pieces of
>sheet metal on the sides of the radiator are missing.  could this
>cause air to flow around the radiator instead of thru it?  also the
>radiator was painted black.  would this make a difference?  any
>advice would be appreciated.  i also changed the thermostat to a
>160.

oes the fan have a shroud?  Without a shroud the air tends to take
a shortcut around the ends of the fan blades and you don't get much
draw through the radiator.

A 160 thermostat is not a good idea.  This low an operating
temperature leads to reduced power, poor mileage, and extra engine
wear.  You should run at least a 180 and you might want to go to
a 195.

Simply changing the thermostat will *not* help an overheating
problem.  You need to find the cause of the overheating and fix
that.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: emory!ucsd.edu!btree!hale (Bob Hale)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 17 20:30:26 1992
Subject: 429 Fords
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> sweep tach. Has anyone out there ever put one of these in a 1969
-> Cougar? I have one of those with the 390/C6auto drivetrain and have
-> been told that the fender wells have to be cut out and the upper
-> control arms lowered about an inc since I'd like to restore it
-> someday.

 Someone is pulling your leg.  The 429/460 will fit fine.  They may be
thinking of the BOSS 429, which unfortunarely *does* require carving.
By the way, Lincoln/Mercury ran ads for the BOSS 302 and BOSS 429 in the
Cougar, and the old parts books used to show the parts.  I've seen a
couple of BOSS 302 Eliminators, but never a BOSS 429 one.

 Frankly, I think you'd be better off staying with the 390.  If you get
the hots for more torque, look for a 428 short block.  Only one cubic
inch off the 429, and it'll bolt right in.  And you can tell people it's
a 390...  
                                                                                                         

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 18 00:42:54 1992
Subject: Re: Re: 429 powered Mustang
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> possiblity is the hydraulic throwout bearing setup which is what Ford
-> uses on all their late model F150/250 trucks, including 302,351,460
-> motors.

 Make *CERTAIN* this is not the "unitized" system they've been putting
on some trucks.  The master cylinder, pressure line, and slave cylinder
are a single piece of plastic, and the dealer price for the one we put
on the wrecker was $235.


  

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 18 00:52:02 1992
Subject: Re: 429 powered Mustang
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Be careful when you talk Lincoln rears.  The big ones are 9 3/8
R & P and are 5 on 5 bolt patterns.  The popular lincoln which
is also narrow is the Versailles(77,78,79,89) which is a rgular
5 on 4 1/2, 9 inch disc brake version and 58 1/4 inches from
disc brake rotor face to disc brake rotor face.  this one is 
popular as a real bolt in to 65-66 mustangs.  The only bad thing
about them is the disc brake setup is a one off which means it
costs real hard dollars at the auto parts stores when it comes
to rotors and calipers. Remember, when it comes time to narrow 
your axles that depending on how much you need to cutoff your
axles, will be the factor for the machine shop. Ford axles generally
neck down immediately adjacent to the splines so you can only shorten
it where it returns to the same diameter as the splines.  If you start 
with too narrow an axle housing you may end up requiring longer or 
custom axles.  So if your intent is a very narrow pro street type 
axle, finding a big long one from a full size vehicle may be cheaper
if you can live with the stock axles narrowed.  If not, then this
is academic and don't worry about it.
Mike Brattland
Brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 18 00:59:45 1992
Subject: Re: 429 powered Mustang 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


> Date:  Wed, 16 Sep 92 12:29 EDT
> From:  Chuck Fry  Chucko@charon.arc.nasa.gov
> 


> I think the 9" rear is from the Lincoln Versailles, which has long since
> gone out of production, but should be findable in junkyards.  The
> current ('86?-on) rear-drive Lincoln Mark VII uses a Mustang drivetrain,
> including an 8.8" rear which differs from the 'Stang primarily in track
> width, but with 5-lug axles.  This rear end can be used with wheels with
> the SVO Mustang offset (I think.)  Check your local Mustang specialist
> for details.

Yep.  You're right.  Just make sure you get wheels that will clear the
calipers on the rear discs.  The SVO uses a special 16" wheel (big $$$).

The 9" Versailles is a better deal, if you can find them.


	-- Dan

----------
Posted by: Dan Malek 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 18 01:13:56 1992
Subject: Re: 429 Fords
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Hi,
> 
> I'm a new reader of hotrod.dixie.com and a big fan of the Ford 429. I've
> been reading all the messages about putting 429's in small Mustangs and 
> can't help but comment that such a combination must be pure bliss to drive
> on the street! I have a complete 429CJ motor, currently residing in a 1977
> LTD wagon. It came out of a 1970 Torino Cobra, 

I'm anticipating that it will give me the goose pimple willies when it 
gets tried out the first time!

> Has anyone out there ever put one of these in a 1969 Cougar? I have
> one of those with the 390/C6auto drivetrain and have been told that the    
> fender wells have to be cut out and the upper control arms lowered about an inchto make a 429/460 block motor fit. I really don't want to cut up the Cougar
> since I'd like to restore it someday.
> ----------
> Posted by: Neal Howard 

Kaufmann Associates (301-803-3677) says that they make the same kit to
put a 429 into a Cougar or Thunderbird just like it goes into the Mustang.
I've heard of people hacking up the Mustang to put a 351 in so I thought
there would be no way to do the 429 thing.  These kits are designed to let
you basically just drop it in.  All alignment problems are eliminated 
with the mounts supplied and the headers eliminate any clearance problems.

BTW, I just checked with Kaufmann and found the price of the baisic kit is
$880, add $100 for 2.5 inch race headers.  No hydraulic clutch conversion
kits were available directly from them.

Dwight Brantley

----------
Posted by: emory!falab1.b21.ingr.com!brantley (Dwight Brantley)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 18 01:22:10 1992
Subject: Re:  engine running hot
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 You definitely want an appropriate shroud to force the fan to draw through
the radiator. If your highway temperature is fine but you overheat at idle
this is definitely the problem, seeing as the fan is OK.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 18 16:35:23 1992
Subject: Kit Cobra's
To: hotrod@dixie.com


->  and build a kit Cobra.

 Oh, nooooo..... not *another* kit Cobra... 

 Hokay.  When building a kit, you have to have one of three
prerequisites:

        A)  a *real good* relationship with a local junkyard

        B)  a massive inventory of pieces-parts of your own, and
            sympathetic friends

        C)  a fat wallet to buy all the pieces-parts from the kit
            vendor.

 Assuming you're covered there, you need to take a look at the kit.
What's the front suspension off of?  Sucko Pinto (excuse me - Mustang
II) parts, Jaguar, or proprietary?  How about the rear - narrowed solid
axle, narrowed Jag, narrowed Corvette, or handbuilt?  Does the kit
require special offset wheels?  Does it come with windshield glass and
rubber strip?  How about door latches and hinges?  Wiring harness?
Windshield wiper mechanism?  Will your state require it to have bumpers?
Are side exhausts legal in your state?  Will the chassis require custom
headers, and how much do they cost?


 The best thing to do is ask around and find someone who bought a kit
and gave up.  He'll have already sunk money and time into getting the
parts.  Don't ever trust anyone else's work - take it all the way back
apart and make sure it is right - but sometimes you can get very good
deals on incomplete kits.
                                       

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 18 17:37:17 1992
Subject: Re:  Autometer tach
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 Some tachs use a very simpleminded F->V converter - often a series cap, a 
shunt resistor, a diode and maybe another filter RC. If this is the case
it could be something like a leaky cap or diode. 

------||--o----|>|---/\/\/\----o---- meter
          |                    |
          |                    |
          >                   ===
         <                     |
          >                    |
          |                    |
-------------------------------------

 There might be a gain stage at the front end to buffer and sharpen the
tach pulse. If so, and especially if it's coming off the coil primary,
look for the input transistor to be fried. Look for a rail-to-rail
swing on the collector.

 Hard to tell what's what without seeing the guts.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Sep 21 12:02:34 1992
Subject: Re:  head work vs. gas mileage
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 The wisdom goes that small valves give low end torque and large valves hurt
it. The 455 is a torque motor. In any case, the larger Stage I valves at
2.125" intake diameter yield only a 6% increase in circumference over the
stock 2.000"-ers. If you truly want power, you have to get the breathing 
better - stock 455s fade before 5000 or so I'm told. This can be most
easily remedied with a bigger cam, but again you will lose some on the bottom
end. Rhoads lifters are available for the 455. Poston has quite a lineup of
cams from stock to Stage I to insane. Combining almost-too-much cam with the
Rhoads lifters may be your ticket (pun intended). You can push the air flow/
HP up quite a bit, especially on an EPA-raped later engine. More inprovement
can be had with lift and duration than valve head diameter or passage work IMO.
As a datapoint, the 430 cam on my desk had about .490" lift for 360HP (high
compression heads), which is a slightly higher rating, however bogus they
may have been, than the '70 stock high compression 455. Of course the old
Electras and Wildcats were not exactly mileage champs. 

 Stage I heads are always an option. I don't know how much they are improved
over the stock ones besides the valve sizes. They are around. Would appreciate
any tips on how to identify them from stock in case I see any up close.

 Here's what I would do to improve performance.

(1) lighten the load - Buicks ran heavy. Maybe lose the sound deadening
    material - I threw out about 200lb when I stripped my Skylark.

(2) If you're post-'72, de-smog that pig.

(3) Cam and lifters

(4) if it's a smog year, intake & carb from aftermarket or '67-'69 430 or 
    '70 455. 

(5) Consider '70 455 heads, Stage I if you really plan to see the high side
    of 5000RPM regularly. BTW, you'll probably need premium (and hardened
    seats, which I believe came standard on the Stage I)

 Stop whenever you achieve Fahrvergnu"gen.


----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From dlogics!hermes.dlogics.com!acg@uunet.UU.NET Mon Sep 21 12:04:48 1992
To: bmw@balltown.cma.com
Cc: acg@hermes.dlogics.com
Subject: Re: Ford Ox sensor number

Let me add a brief followup note to DJE's excellent oxygen sensor article...

Whenever a Motorcraft part number (e.g. DY-606) is assigned to a standard part
number (e.g. F0SZ-9F472-A), it indicates that the part is available over the
counter as a retail maintenance item at well-stocked auto parts stores. You
should not need to stand in line at the parts counter of a Ford dealership for
it unless you strike out elsewhere first. (i.e. Buying a Motorcraft DY-606
oxygen sensor is like buying a Motorcraft FL-1A oil filter...) By extension,
you could then shop around for aftermarket (i.e. "even cheaper") replacements
for Ford's DY-606, although perhaps we are straying a bit too far afield from
the original part now...  :-)

Andrew C. Green
Datalogics, Inc.      Internet: acg@dlogics.com
441 W. Huron          UUCP: ..!uunet!dlogics!acg
Chicago, IL  60610    FAX: (312) 266-4473

From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Sep 21 12:22:11 1992
Subject: Re: Re: 429 powered Mustang
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Regarding your 302 pinto and the hydraulic clutch setup, there is 
several ways to go.  The early Sunbeam tigers 65-67 ran hydraulic
clutch setups using a Girling Master cylinder and slave cylinder.
This same setup was used on all the original small block Ford Cobras
too.  The Girling Slave cylinder part number is #3010224W.  They go
for about 65-85 bucks.  Cobra Restorers makes a repro slave cylinder
bracket for this setup which I originally bought to use on my 302,
4spd Roadster setup.  Well, their bracket is a good one, but the bozos
made it out of 1/4 inch steel. After a couple hundred miles mine looked
like the shape of the earth, so I made a new one using their pattern 
out of 3/8 inch steel and it has provided superb service since.
As for a clutch rod, I used Ford part #E3TZ7521A, along with my stock
mustang clutch fork Ford # C027515B.  The Girling slave cylinder is a
7/8 inch diameter which means you must combine it with a master cylinder
of the same piston diameter, with no residual valves.  I am using a Hurst
7/8 diameter but Girling master cylinder might be better if space is a
problem as it is very small.  I am lucky and live in the same town with
Neal Products.  Bill Neal produces several pedal asseblies where the girling
hurst, JFZ, Howard, etc will all bolt up depending on your needs.
Cobra Restorers number is 404-427-0020 and Bill Neal's number is 619
530-0353.
CNC pedal products look the same and that is because CNC is Bill's brother.
They had a disagreement some years back so they are seperate, but Bill really
has an excellent product line.  His pedals can be used on the floor, below the 
floor or as swing mounts.  Your choice.
If you send me your mailing address, I will make you a template of my old 
clutch bracket and send it to you. Remember 3/8 steel.  The pedal effort
is very comfortable, even in my 23 roadster.  
The other option is Mcloed hydraulic throwout bearing setup.  Friday I happened
to be in JBA's showroom and they had one which technically was used out of the
box, but never actually used for a reasonable price.  A real slick setup if 
space is a consideration in your pinto.  You would still need to match it 
with a pedal setup.
Mike Brattland
Brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Sep 21 12:47:09 1992
Subject: Re: Steel fuel lines
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>   I've been trying to fabricate some new fuel lines for a project car.
> 
I'd goto a local hardware store and just go to the plumbing section...pick
up some aluminum line, compression fittings, and a pipe cutter if needed,
thats all we used on a friends car...worked well, as long as you do not
need to go 'round any sharp bends and flatten out the pipe...

----------
Posted by: emory!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Sean.Kelley
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Sep 21 20:50:08 1992
Subject: Re: passing emmisions
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I've used ATF to try and free up sticky oil rings, try running your car on straight
>ATF, might help if oil-rings are your problem.
>I would kick my neighbors butt for a stunt like that. Just a thought. :)

I have successfully unstuck both lifters and rings using Marvel Mystery
Oil.  That is a listed use for the stuff.  For lifters, just dump a quart
in the oil.  For rings, remove all plugs, flood all cylinders and 
allow to sit overnight.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep 23 08:04:30 1992
Subject: Re: passing emmisions
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> More importantly, does anyone know whether or not it is just a
-> mixture of ATF and (probably) kerosene?  That's what I heard it was
-> made of,

 If it came out in the '20s, as has been suggested, it predates ATF
handily.  If it retains its original formulation, of course.

 I seriously doubt it has kerosene in it, or it wouldn't be useful as an
oil additive!

 There was a discussion of Marvel Mystery Oil in rec.motorcycles some
months back.  Someone claimed it was merely a low-viscosity, high grade
oil.  That's what it feels like when you rub some between your fingers,
anyway.
                                                                                                           

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep 23 09:47:23 1992
Subject: Re:  Intake leak
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 First I'd look at the gasket against the bottom of the carb. Is there
any exposure of passages around the edges? Each make of carb is different
and a "universal" gasket might not be exactly. You might need a special
baseplate gasket meant for your carb if it's got passages very close to
the edge or something. 

 Some carbs appear to draw the idle air from the adjuster screw passage.
The air runs past the needle and spring into the idle circuit. Not very
clean. Anyhow, if this is the case on your Edelbrock, hitting this spot
with WD-40 will change your idle speed (if that's how you're finding
leaks) even though it's not a leak per se. On the other hand if the
gasket doesn't cover the inboard end of the idle air adjustment slot
(where the screw and spring reside) it can be an air leak too.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep 23 10:50:30 1992
Subject: Re: Intake leak
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 	I went to the local car store looking for ideas, the only thing
> they said was to try double gasket...and they also said that Mr Gasket
> does recomend their gasket in a tube for carburator application...

   If the gasket-in-a-tube is silicone gasoline will eat it up 
into a gooey mess.
                                                        Daty

----------
Posted by: emory!spdc.ti.com!drogers (Daty Rogers)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Sep 23 12:25:36 1992
Subject: Re: Intake leak
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I have found that problem with some Edelbrock manifolds also. In my instances
it turned out that edelbrock cut the carb base to thin for the carb. To be
exact the base of the carb has some vacuum passages that are left partially
exposed when bolted to the manifold. The gasket looks like it covers the problem
but it pulls back a bit when under pressure allowing the vacuum leak to occur.
My solution has been to use a 1/2" carb spacer or one of the plates from a
Mr. Gasket carb insulator kit.

***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt                        met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto 
1953 3/4 ton Chevy pickumup truck

newly aquired:
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto (console)
1967 Cougar XR-7 (will become a race specific version of above)
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 24 09:23:27 1992
Subject: Re: Intake leak
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> 2) How are the throttle shafts sealed on your carb?  And the old
-> holley on my Mazda, the throttle shafts are so worn that it idles at
-> 600RPM with the throttle blades completely closed.

 When you replace it, do NOT buy the new style
bean-counter-cheapened 600CFM model.  (not the new Autolite clone, the
"improved" model with the plastic parts)  They do NOT have the center
idle air bleed screw under the air cleaner stud!  The throttle plates on
the (brand new) pair on John's 455 are completely shut and it still
idles at 900.  Plus the floats stick if you even look at them crosswise,
and there's no way to cure the problem short of scavenging a new set of
old style float bowls.

 I don't know if they've cheapened the fancier models or not.
                                                                            

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 24 09:31:31 1992
Subject: Re: Intake leak in throttle body
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> was that there was no good way to rebuild the throttle body
-> when the throttle shafts inevitably wore enough to
-> allow a vacuum leak. I understand Webers have rebuild
-> kits specifically for this purpose.

 Very, very few carbs have bushed throttle shafts.  The fancy-model
Webers (as opposed to the cheapies on Fiats, etc) go overboard and go to
sealed ball bearings, as do their Dell'Orto clones.

 With Holley prices rocketing through the ceiling and the lire still
falling, Weber prices are becoming quite attractive.
                            

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 24 09:38:16 1992
Subject: Re: Intake leak in throttle body
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 You can drill the passages oversize and insert bushings (like brass tubing,
ID = shaft OD, OD = drill size). For more positive sealing a larger hole
which accommodates a neoprene O-ring and a keeper (bushing for wear also). 
 
 In other Jolly Holley News, I got an electric choke conversion kit for
-my- 1850 and jolly jolly joy it came with a -steel- fast idle cam 
follower arm to replace the Piece Of Shit plastic one which broke on
installation lo these many years ago. It looks like Holley has now
abandoned the plastic arm for new models, even of the cheapo 1850.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Sep 24 15:39:35 1992
Subject: Re:  passing emmisions
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>> >Speaking of older cars, I have heard that Mystery Oil and other such
>> >products designed to dissolve engine deposits can cause problems when
>> >used in older cars that may not have a history of regular maintenance.
>> >
>
>I was hoping that somebody out there would have something definitive to
>share on the subject from their own experience, thereby sparing the
>rest of us from dangerous experimentation.  I'm not asking anyone to
>try these things; I'm asking if anyone *already has*.
>

Older cars with problems are the only ones I dump the stuff in.  It's a 
last ditch shot for stuck lifters and rings I try before breaking out the 
wrenches.

Does it dissolve crud?  Absolutely.  Makes a good parts cleaner too, as
I found out at a certain shop I used to work at where we bought it in 
55 gal drums.  Don't ask :-)

Can the crud hurt the motor?  Yes, of course.  But if the motor didn't have
problems, you would not need it in the first place.

Do you need to change the oil and filter after a couple hundred miles of
use?  absolutely.  And probably again in another 500.  As long as the 
filter is working and not bypassing, you should be OK.

BTW, I've been using Marvel oil for at least 20 years.  I've not noticed
any change in the consistency.  To answer another question, Chigaco Pneumatics
calls out MMO by name as the recommended lube for their air tools so I
doubt the newly labeled stuff is any different.  It probably addresses 
the "you want me to put WHAT in my air tool?" syndrome.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From z-car@Dixie.Com Fri Sep 25 23:59:16 1992
Subject: Re:  Voltage Regulators and Newer Alternators
To: z-car@dixie.com

>I'd stick with the original setup, IMHO. It's cheaper and replaceable.
>That's to say that if the volt. regulator gives up the ghost, it's easier
>to change just the reg. (My '76 was notorious for munching voltage regs!)
>I don't believe there is any performance advantage by using the integrated
>unit. (You'd have to tear the thing apart to change out the regulator too!)

I would tend to agree with this advice.  Though the later model integral
regulator alternators have more output capability, the added expense is
not worth it.  A rebuilt old model is about $30 around here while the 
electronic one is over $100.  I've never had an external regulator 
fail so the dollar benefit is apparent.

BTW, I've been told that there is a Delco 100 amp alternator that is
a bolt-on replacement.  With extra lights, a second battery, the 
ham rig, the radar gun, the inverter-powered stereo and misc test
gear, I desparately need added alternator capacity.  Anyone have any
idea what this alternator might be?

John



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Sep 27 05:24:11 1992
Subject: My trip
To: hotrod@dixie.com

As I promised, here is a short trip report on my trip to Jacksonville, FL
to meet Gary Johns of Gary Johns Racing Engines.  Gary has sent word back
via a mutual friend from the US Nationals that he wanted to meet me and
talk about collaboration on some projects.

Gary has to be one of the nicest people I've ever met in the upper ranks
of hotrodding.  Usually by the time someone reaches Gary's ranking,
he gets somewhat reserved and secretive.  Not the case here.  I got to
look at and even disassemble anything I was interested in including his
last year's Olds Pro Stock motors.  Not a secret in the place as I could 
tell.

Anyway, the first thing one notices when one walkes in his shop is the far 
wall lined with every imaginable muscle car and racing engine from
big block Hemis to an all-aluminum block Can-Am engine.  A complete 
early (was that a Rochester?) Corvette fuel injection system sat at the end.  
If the fellow who offered multi-kilobucks for it while I was there does not 
get it, I'll do a dissection of it for a magazine article.  Walking 
around the place made me wish I'd paid more attention to the old Hotrod
magazines.  One room the size of a Waffle House restaurant contained nothing
but crankshafts stood on end.  Another contained nothing but racing heads.
In another room were several NASCAR engines various manufacturers had sent
him to try and get some power out of.

We walked back to his SuperFlow dyno room and he proceeded to demo it with
a small block chevy circle track engine.  He has a SF-805 dyno which is 
good for 1000 hp or better.  It is one generation old and does not have
the PC controller. (Superflow offered to upgrade it to a 901 for a measly
$12,000.  NOT!)  It has a servo function whereby one sets upper and lower
RPM limits and the thing will run the engine under load through the range
at a rate of 500 RPM per second.  It does this by having the embedded 
6809 drive an 8 bit DAC to generate a ramp to a servo loop slaved against
RPM.

Anyway, he pushes the servo button and ... Nothing.  Won't load.  "Well.."
I says, "I have my electronic gear in the car.  How 'bouts we take a look?"
To make a long story short, after spending a day searching Jacksonville
in vain for a DAC-08 DAC chip and another day fabricating an R-2R resistive
ladder DAC and calibrating it, I got him running again.  he was favorably
impressed :-)  In the process I got to do something I didn't think I'd ever
get to do and that was dissect the machine to see how it works.  We took
the absorber apart (Gary was as curious as me.), dissected every black box
and the circuitry in the console.  (Did you know that fancy blue console is
really blue Formica counter top?)  I was very impressed with the system,
particularly considering the design was done in the early 80s.  I'll be 
doing an article on this dissection sometime in the future.

So we played around with that engine a bit and then Gary drags out his 
box of electronic problems :-)  I fixed an MSD-7AL box that "scattered
spark" and showed him how to replace the Lucas (Prince of Darkness) ignition
box on a Jag V-12 (no, didn't get any on me :-) with a Mallory Unilite 
LED interruptor and Chrysler module.  I couldn't believe what Lucas 
had done on that ignition.  They actually implemented an RF excited
metal detector for the trigger.  The plastic rotor has little bars of 
steel (non-magnetized) that trip the ignition when they pass the trigger
coil.  What a gross thing to do.  My first indication of problems was
when I observed a tuning slug - as in a radio - on the thing.  The damn
pickup had to be resonated with that slug!

After the fun, we settled down to some brainstorming.  WE're going to do
some magic for the new (damn, I can't remember the designation) NHRA class 
where FI will be legal next year.  I predict some whippy electronics AND 
mechanicals.  We're also going to PC-automate the dyno and then perhaps
sell the package in lieu of SuperFlow's "upgrade" fee.  At least there
will be an article on it.

Anyway, I mentioned this list to Gary and he was very interested.
He mentioned that his dyno sits idle much of the time and that members
of the list would be welcome to rent time on it.  He has a very good deal.
Instead of renting by the hour, he charges a setup fee of $250 plus $25
a pull.  If you want to  work on your engine all day between pulls, that's
fine.  I *LIKE* this deal after paying by the hour and thru the nose
in the past.  I have the feeling he will waive all or part of the setup
fee once he gets to know you and determines you know what you're doing
and won't wreck his dyno.  Anyone in the Southeast would be well rewarded
to give him a call.  His number is 904 388 8808.  

I'll be going back next weekend to install the correct part in his dyno
and chat some more.  I'll probably go to the Super Chevy Show (if it
was not this weekend :-) while I'm in the area.  Anyone happening down
that way give me a shout.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)