From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Aug  3 17:50:10 1992
Subject: Re: Help a newbie
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 Probably the best car in terms of parts availability, tolerable looks and
simplicity is a '68-'72 Chevelle. Enough room to work, 350 parts dirt cheap
(unless you get real fancy), and just about everything GM ever made will
bolt up. Can be made into a real stormer with junkyard parts. They are 
a bit pricey if they're super clean, a hi-po version or a ragtop but a
worn-out 307 can be had cheap and fixed up piecemeal. Full frame too, for
those who care about such things. Earlier years are nice too; a bit more
squared-off, a bit harder to find. The GM A-body is the smallest car I
know of with a full frame and room to put in a big block -and- a wrench.
3500 pounds stuffed, 3000 stripped - about the same as the late model
Mustangs, less than new Camaros. Not super great at handling unless you 
spend some money, but they sure will go straight. 

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Aug  4 02:33:17 1992
Subject: Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>The topic of inlet flow measurement has come up a few times recently,
>and John indicated that a density * speed system can provide a much
>wider range of flow measurement that a MAS can. I am curious what the
>advantages and disadvantages are to each system. From my limited
>knowledge of each, it would seem that a MAP sensor * engine RPM 
>measurement would be superior to a MAS measurement in just about
>every case... The MAP sensor system should have a wider and more
>accurate range, no lag, poses no inlet restriction, and should
>cost a lot less. So what's the scoop? Why are mass-airflow sensors
>being used in so many applications? Are they more reliable or
>something?

The major consideration, at least for us hardware hackers, is the 
speed-density system requries calibration and a lookup table or
other non-linear function to map the manifold pressure values 
into fuel demand values.  MAF measures mass flow directly and thus
only requres only a zero and span adjustment.  Indeed the system on
my friend's turbo Z I previously described has just that.  The lookup
table is not a technical issue since digital controllers are cheaply 
available but the development time is still a consideration.  I 
suppose a speed-density system could be tuned without one but I
feel a session on the dyno is vital.  To properly generate a map, it
is necessary to hold the engine at a given RPM for several pressure
values and dither the mix at each.  IMHO, this one-time work is more
than offset by the simplicity of manifolding and no intake restriction.

Speed-density does NOT work well on highly modified engines that lose
manifold vacuum upon any throttle opening.   Haltech sells a special 
system for such applications that uses only temperature and and
throttle position.  Not something you'd want to run on the street.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Aug  4 02:42:12 1992
Subject: Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> The topic of inlet flow measurement has come up a few times recently,
> and John indicated that a density * speed system can provide a much
> wider range of flow measurement that a MAS can. I am curious what the
> advantages and disadvantages are to each system. From my limited
> knowledge of each, it would seem that a MAP sensor * engine RPM 
> measurement would be superior to a MAS measurement in just about
> every case... The MAP sensor system should have a wider and more
> accurate range, no lag, poses no inlet restriction, and should
> cost a lot less. So what's the scoop? Why are mass-airflow sensors
> being used in so many applications? Are they more reliable or
> something?
>

The amount of fuel an is basically a function of the axDmount of air
that is drawn in by the cylinders.  Mass air systems use a mass air
sensor to directly measure air flow, and meter fuel as a function of
this measurement.  Speed density systems use RPM, MAP, and throttle
position (i think) to guesstimate air flow.  To make this aproximation,
you need to have an accurate volumetric efficiency MAP.  Any modification
that alters the volemtric efficiency of the engine (like a clogged air
filter or changing mufflers, etc..), makes the preprogrammed volumetric
efficiency map inaccurate, resulting in a rich or lean condition.  Mass air
systems on the other hand always (in theorey) provide correct fuel
metering no matter what changes are made that affect volumetric efficiency.
Speed density systems are generally considered to be more reliable, although
they are much more difficult to set up.  Mass air systems are considered
to be more accurate.  
 
 BTW, If anyone has any suggestions on developing fuel curves for a speed
density system, I'd love to hear them.  I'll be back at the University of
Texas in a few weeks, and the SAE guys just got their first attempt
at EFI running last week (600cc 4 stroke, supercharged, running M85,
speed density, sequential injection, can't remember who makes the
ECU (got it from NOS, don't think its commercially available yet)).
 
> Greg
> jsb@ecl.psu.edu
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
>  

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Aug  4 15:32:25 1992
Subject: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> cost a lot less. So what's the scoop? Why are mass-airflow sensors
-> being used in so many applications? Are they more reliable or
-> something?

 My fuel injection background is old and obsolete compared to most
people here, but I can answer that one.

 A speed-density system uses RPM * absolute pressure * a fudge factor.
The fudge factor (usually a map in PROM) is based on the volumetric
efficiency curve.  The VE can vary widely under different circumstances;
generally you use more than one curve or correction factor.

 A mass-airflow system knows *exactly* how much air an engine is using,
as long as it's within the range of the airflow sensor.  Most modern
systems use a hot wire; back in the old days Marelli used electrodes and
ions, and Lucas played with ultrasonics.  Maybe there's still life in
those ideas after all...

 Anyway, mass airflow is great for supercharged engines, engines with
tuned runners, or any type of engine where the volumetric efficiency
changes much.

 So, if mass airflow is so great, why does anyone bother with
speed-density?  Well, it turns out the air/fuel ratio isn't *that*
critical, even for emissions or racing engines (which is why they still
make carburetors).  With enough fudging, you can make the speed-density
system's fuel curve close enough to optimum to work OK, most of the
time.  Speed-density systems don't need the hot wire, and are probably
infinitesimally more reliable.

 Of course, once you start modifying the engine, a speed-density system
gets shot to hell, while a mass airflow system hardly cares.
Personally, I think you're better off with a mass airflow system 99.9%
of the time, and the rest of the time you could use mass airflow
sampling, as John described a couple of days ago.
                                                                                      

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Aug  4 15:50:16 1992
Subject: Cheap dyno substitute - interested?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I saw this on the autox mailing list and thought it might be of
interest to this group (disclaimer: I got the author's permission to
forward it here).

Might also make a good article for _Performance Engineering_ ??


	--
	Joseph P. Cernada	AIT, Inc.
	914/347-6860		50 Executive Blvd.
	cernada@ait.com		Elmsford, New York 10523
    

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 11:21:45 PDT
>From: ads.com!neville@uupsi.UUCP (Neville Newman)
To: autox@autox.team.net
Subject: Cheap dyno substitute - interested?


For a few years now, some SFR autocrossers have been using a device
made by Bill Condrashoff to do engine acceleration timings for tuning
purposes.  It is kind of ugly, and uses a cheap stopwatch, 10 pots,
and an incredible number of diodes and resistors to get the job done,
but it works.

i have been after Bill for a while to build me a slighty fancier version,
but he's not particularly interested.  So now, one of my coworkers and i
are planning on doing it instead (actually, i do the design and he does
the work - i like that split better :-).

This device allows you to put in a starting RPM and ending RPM.  It has
a connection to the ignition primary, and will record interval times
for each 1000 RPM step between the start and stop.  This all happens in
one acceleration run (the old device requires a separate run for each
interval time).  The results are shown on a 1-line LCD display.  Software
will be included with which you can analyze the results to get torque
and horsepower curves.

It would sell for somewhere in the neighborhood of $150 (equal to the
cost of 1 short chassis dyno session).

So, what i'd like to know, is what folks are using out there now (i'm
sure, for instance, that we don't have many Tach-Tale users out there
at $1200 a pop), and whether this device would be useful enough for 
you or your local club to buy.  i think that the nearest thing on
the market is the Vericom computer, which is accelerometer based and
thus can give you braking info but at a much higher price.

So, let me know what you think...

							-neville


----------
Posted by: emory!ait.com!cernada (Joseph P. Cernada)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Aug  4 17:46:58 1992
Subject: Re: Re:: my first truck-pull...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> A custom made metal tubing usually in circular shape bolted to the
> frame , usually with one at the transmission end of the driveshaft 
> and maybe another at the third member end of the driveshaft.  This 
> loop actually surrounds the driveshaft prevents it from sticking itself
> into the ground when you least expect it. A very simple but effective
> safety device which helps to save your equipment and maybe a driveshaft.

        I thought there also had to be a kill switch wired to a cable attached
to the sled..  then if the hitch breaks, the engine is killed...


--
Tracy J. Evans
Hewlett-Packard
1-503-750-3837

----------
Posted by: Tracy J. Evans 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug  5 12:18:04 1992
Subject: Re: rod job
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> What is the motor going in?

 A Cobra replica.  A friend of mine in England races in some "run what
ya brung" class with a homebuilt car (pulled his own molds off another
replica, had the chassis built, etc).  He bought my old 302 I used to
autocross with.

 Now he has another Cobra replica be bought from a guy whose wife said
"get that thing out of here!"  The 302 car will be retired to street and
show use, and the new "beater" will be mostly raced.

 The 302 was built in '84.  Ported '68 351W heads, Weiand dual plane
intake, 600 vacuum secondary, 288/470 Crower hydraulic cam, adjustable
valvetrain, Shelby aluminum retainers, polished and peened rods, GM
HEI distributor (lopped the top off and welded it on the Ford base),
12.5:1 compression.  The parts were chosen to give the widest possible
torque curve and a high operational red line, since you can't always
take the time to shift on a tight course.  In a 2400 pound, gutted '72
Capri body shell with a 3.22 axle it was fairly strong, even if it
didn't have any particular slope to the power curve.  That's the trouble
with wide powerband motors - without the biceps in the curve, they just
don't feel very strong.  The lap times showed I was on the right track,
though.  

 Paul's kit car weighs about the same as the Capri, has a 3.55 axle (Jag
IRS) and runs on a more open course than the postage-stamp-sized Solo II
tracks I ran on.  He wanted another 302 similar to the first one, only
with the powerband pushed up more to the high end, since he needed the
top end more than the powerband.  It appears there's another guy running
in his class with a Surtees-prepared something-or-other with an RHS 350
Chevy in it.  He said he could eat the Chevy up on the tight sections,
but given a straight of any distance he couldn't keep up.  Oh, and he
said four star (premium leaded) gas may go down the tubes; he wanted a
lower CR so he could continue to drive on the street if he wanted.

 My first idea was to just order a motor from PAW or Summit.  10:1 302
with a set of World Products or Dart II heads, single plane intake,
solid lifter cam.  I flipped through the catalogs and nearly had a
stroke.  In the six years since I'd last built a motor, prices have gone
insane.  Paul didn't bat an eye at the first guesstimated price, but I
felt pretty bad about it.  Since engines are not regulated in his class,
I started trying to figure out what I could do to get him some more bang
for his bucks.  Or pounds, as the case may be - I have an account with
the Royal Bank of Scotland.

 First, if a 302 will fit, (most Cobra replicas will take a big block) a
351 Cleveland or Windsor would fit.  I got out all my old Muscle Parts
and Ford OHO catalogs, old magazines, Chilton manuals, etc, and figured
for a while.  A 4V Cleveland was right out - I haven't even seen one in
years, and they have weak oiling systems, short rods, and not much in
the way of intake manifold selection.  The Windsor was lighter, takes
302 accessories, has a .300 taller deck and 6-inch rods right from the
factory.  The oiling system is much better too.

 Great.  But aftermarket heads were still out of the picture.  I found
some notes I had made back in 1980 (I doodle in spiral notebooks, then
keep them) about using 351C-2v heads on a 351.  I'd got the idea from
B&A Ford, who had just come out with a "Bogus BOSS" manifold to put the
2V heads on a 302.  So I started figuring out how to do it for a
Windsor.

 It turned out it's not that difficult to redrill the heads for the
Windsor bolt pattern and use a Windsor intake.  Spacers and a Cleveland
intake won't work - the Cleveland manifold doesn't have provision for
water passages.  Windsor manifolds were rather limited late last year -
Edelbrock has a couple of new Performers, but if they were out I hadn't
seen them.  I picked an Offy 360 manifold, with short runners which
would be easy to port match.

 About this time I found out B&A now made a special intake for the
Windsor/Cleveland swap, so I bought one.  $265, but what the heck.
Now I'm collecting parts and having the machining done as I get the
money.  I'll get paid in a lump sum, unless Paul suddenly gets cold feet
and backs out.  I'm not real worried, as I'm growing sort of attached to
the project (the engine is in the living room right now) and my wife is
wildly enthusiastic over the whole thing for some unknown (but thanked)
reason.

 I'm staying pretty normal with this one, if you could consider such a
Frankenstein collection of parts "normal."  I have doodles for a 351
inch motor with 6.58 351M rods and 1.19 pin height special pistons, a
389 cubic inch motor with 6.115 inch Chrysler 340 rods, cut down 400
pistons, and an offset-destroked 400M crank, and some other crazoid
stuff.

 If I *really* wanted to get seriously weird, I have some tentative
doodles for a 351M with 7.38 inch aluminum rods, high ported 4V
Cleveland heads, an SVO Cleveland intake on Weiand spacers, roller
cam, and a dry sump.  I could just imagine the reaction at the Benton
Speedbowl, where it's 101% Chevy land...
                                                                                                         

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug  5 12:51:52 1992
Subject: Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I wrote:

>Varying restrictions on the intake side of the system seems to be
>the thing that the MAP sensor is monitoring though, right? If pumping
>speed and capacity remains constant, then any reduction in
>manifold pressure should result in exactly the same decrease in
>volumetric efficiency... Or so it appears anyway. Of course, the
>density of the intake charge changes somewhat with temperature
>(and fuel mixture, which directly affects temperature again), but
>the volume of air pumped should be very closely proportional to
>the inlet pressure x engine RPM. (Ignoring temperature/density factors)
>The only other variable I can see right off is that valve overlap
>might allow a bit more VE at higher speeds.

Opps, I blew it... I just though of a really BIG variable that I over-
looked :-(
The MAP sensor is really only measuring static pressure in the intake
manifold upstream of the individual intake runners. On a log-style
intake manifold, the VE would probably much more constant at any 
one STATIC pressure level. However, in a system with with tuned intake
runners, the total pressure available at the intake port when the
valve opens can be drastically different from the static pressure
that the MAP sensor is reading. Since intake runner length increases
VE at specific points in the rev range, the overall VE map will
probably have a big hump in it somewhere. A tuned exhaust, headers,
etc., should certainly have the same effect...
I was trying to figure out why VE was not directly proportional to
MAP in any one engine configuration... I guess my brain hadn't spooled-
up and come on boost yet :-)

Talking about tuned intake runners, I saw something on TV during the
coverage of an F1 race that was very interesting. ( I never saw this
before) They were showing this F1 car that was normally-aspirated
(A Jag I think) that had sliding "trumpets". The effect actually
looked more like a trombone to me... The "trumpets" would grow and
shrink in length as the engine speed changed. It looked pretty wild
with these long metal horns sticking out of the side of the engine, 
madly sliding in and out.

Greg Granville
jsb@ecl.psu.edu

----------
Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug  5 12:58:10 1992
Subject: Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Dave wrote:
>as long as it's within the range of the airflow sensor.  Most modern
>systems use a hot wire; back in the old days Marelli used electrodes and
>ions, and Lucas played with ultrasonics.  Maybe there's still life in
>those ideas after all...

Hmmm... That's interesting. I've looked at my air-mass sensor and it
doesn't seem to be a hot-wire device. I'm guessing that a wire should
be visible in the air flow path if it were a hot-wire system? My 
sensor has two little transducers mounted on opposite sides of the
inlet tube. Could this be an ultrasonic system? I've been wondering
for quite a while just how this sensor measures the air.

> Anyway, mass airflow is great for supercharged engines, engines with
>tuned runners, or any type of engine where the volumetric efficiency
>changes much.

Ah ha! Those were the kinds of engines I neglected to consider. The
VE curve for one of them would be fairly wide, while the VE curve for
a normally aspirated motor without a tuned intake or exhaust would
probably be a lot flatter. I'm learning... thanks.

>Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 
Greg Granville
jsb@ecl.psu.edu

----------
Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug  5 13:27:54 1992
Subject: Re: rod job
To: hotrod@dixie.com

WRT light weight motors. I saw an add in Kit Car mag today for a company
(can't remember the name) that sells all aluminum FE motors. I wonder if
they would hold up in this application. The thought of a cobra with a
aluminum 427 or 428CJ kinda gets my motor runnin. Anyway if there is
any interest I will look up the add and get an address.

				mike

----------
Posted by: emory!hamlet.ctd.anl.gov!shaffer
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug  5 13:40:22 1992
Subject: Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Opps, I blew it... I just though of a really BIG variable that I over-
>looked :-(
>The MAP sensor is really only measuring static pressure in the intake
>manifold upstream of the individual intake runners. On a log-style
>intake manifold, the VE would probably much more constant at any 
>one STATIC pressure level. However, in a system with with tuned intake
>runners, the total pressure available at the intake port when the
>valve opens can be drastically different from the static pressure
>that the MAP sensor is reading. Since intake runner length increases
>VE at specific points in the rev range, the overall VE map will
>probably have a big hump in it somewhere. A tuned exhaust, headers,
>etc., should certainly have the same effect...
>I was trying to figure out why VE was not directly proportional to
>MAP in any one engine configuration... I guess my brain hadn't spooled-
>up and come on boost yet :-)

I agree with most everything posted to date regarding the MAP vs MAS
issue.  However, I think the tuning effort for MAP systems is a bit
overstated.  With a good user interface, tunig is as simple as 
twidling the arrow keys or moving a joystick.  You find a bad spot,
you twiddle it out.  Of course, closed loop control obviates much of
the discussion.

>Talking about tuned intake runners, I saw something on TV during the
>coverage of an F1 race that was very interesting. ( I never saw this
>before) They were showing this F1 car that was normally-aspirated
>(A Jag I think) that had sliding "trumpets". The effect actually
>looked more like a trombone to me... The "trumpets" would grow and
>shrink in length as the engine speed changed. It looked pretty wild
>with these long metal horns sticking out of the side of the engine, 
>madly sliding in and out.

Wow, only 30 years late. :-)  we were doing this on karts in the late 60s.
Expansion chambers too.  My mentor John Davis developed a spring steel 
chamber design that allowed the whole chamber to trumpet.  All the driver
had to do was "ride gain" on the power band with a lever between his legs.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug  5 13:45:48 1992
Subject: Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Hmmm... That's interesting. I've looked at my air-mass sensor and it
>doesn't seem to be a hot-wire device. I'm guessing that a wire should
>be visible in the air flow path if it were a hot-wire system? My 
>sensor has two little transducers mounted on opposite sides of the
>inlet tube. Could this be an ultrasonic system? I've been wondering
>for quite a while just how this sensor measures the air.

Bosch uses a literal hot wire.  You can see the diamond form glow as
it cleans itself at turn-on.  GM uses a thin film resistor network mounted
so laminar flow passes over it.  Real hard to see without a small dental
mirror.  

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug  5 14:48:01 1992
Subject: Re: rod job
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Millam Tackitt says:
> 
> DOVE industries is the all aluminum culprit, just wished that I could afford
> the $6000.00 right arm they want for just a bare block. There have been a few
> alloy 427 Cobras running on the streets as well as the track.
> My buddie and I are starting work on another 427 Mach I.
> 427 cast iron block
> Dove 427 mid-riser aluminum heads
> stroker crank (474cid!!!!!!!)
> Lrge solid cam ~310\320 and .600" on 110-112 centers
> ~11.0:1 comp forged pistons
> and all the nifty acouterments.
> He has this burning desire to smoke everything in town, especially
> a certain camaro driven by a guy who calls himself "Super Chief".
> He's got the bucks and I've got the time....
> 
> DOVE Manufacturing
> P.O. box 1003
> Columbia Station, Ohio 44028
> (216)236-5169 or (216)236-5139
> 
> I figure that my dream motor, an all aluminum 427 SOHC :), will cost
> $15,000.00 :(
> 

Actually If you have a core motor to send them, total costs will run $14758,
including shipping to and from the SanFrancisco Bay Area.  I know, I have the
receipt in my Cobra paperwork.  Someday I'll get to my retirement
project.....

-- 

Miq Millman -- miq@sgi.com or {decwrl,pyramid,att}!sgi!miq  415 390 1041


----------
Posted by: emory!chromavac.esd.sgi.com!miq
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug  5 15:26:11 1992
Subject: Re: Re- MAS vs BMAP flow mea
To: hotrod@dixie.com

        Reply to:   RE>Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measur
>I agree with most everything posted to date regarding the MAP vs MAS
>issue.  However, I think the tuning effort for MAP systems is a bit
>overstated.  With a good user interface, tunig is as simple as 
>twidling the arrow keys or moving a joystick.  You find a bad spot,
>you twiddle it out.  Of course, closed loop control obviates much of
>the discussion.

I guess it is all relative ... a friend of mine has a Grand National with the
Stage I V6 (bored to 280"+), big turbo, front mount intercooler, etc,etc... His
latest purchase was an Accel computer that supplied a CALMAP option.  One week
later and a tank of gas later he finally got it to idle.  He's had it to the
track and it ran 11.15's until he started fiddling trying to tune it out.  Then
he went 11.40s ...  For reference, he was going 11.19-11.25 consistently before
the computer purchase.  Now he has new big buck aluminum heads and the computer
and he's fighting all the tuning variables.  *My* opinion is that if he
methodically tweaks the variables *AFTER* he understands their relationship to
each other, he will go high tens before the season comes to a close.

However, he is not the patient "tuning" type and is constantly messing with the
arrow keys, because he wants results *now* ... you know a little was good, so a
LOT has to be better.  Bottom line is that the tuning of the MAP systems seems
to be harder, but they the same tunablility could be an asset to one who has
patience and an empirical method of tuning.

ANYway, my $0.02.

>John

>----------
>Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)

BTW, your mentor was John Davis (of C/D fame?)?  Ahhh, to rub elbows with my
heros! :^)

-- Ken Mosher
-- Buick Grand National:  Hairdryers and Horsepower!
 





----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug  6 10:26:37 1992
Subject: Lightweight blocks
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> The old Buick 215 aluminum block, found in Buick Specials in the
-> 50s/60s somewhere, was apparently a well, done lightweight piece.

 That's a fact, Jack!  The Buick V6 is basically a cut down 215; nobody
ever sneered at the V6.  And Jaguar-Rover-Triumph licensed the 3500 to
Perkins Diesel/Canada, who have a Diesel version of it, for no reason I
ever understood.


-> Probably not the ultimate in terms of valve size (Buick tended to
-> skimp on valve area a bit)

 Well, you must remember what the engine was designed for.  Hauling
around GM compacts on only 215 cubes, usually hooked to an automatic.
Besides, "everyone knows" you go to the aluminum 300 V8 heads if you
can.  


-> and probably not good for more than 250HP normally aspirated and
-> extensively cleaned up.

 GM stopped building the engine 28 years ago.  Since then, a generation
of Britons have poked, prodded, and tweaked the little Buick.  They sell
bore/stroke kits to take it out to 300 cubes, and with a Huffaker
manifold and four downdraft Webers they get 450hp or so, though those
might be smallish horses.  The engine is still in production.  In fact,
whatever Leyland calls itself this week sawed off two cylinders a few
years ago and made their own V6.


 It's-a verra nahsss little motor.  I'd love to slide one into my '79
RX-7...
              

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug  6 10:37:16 1992
Subject: Re: buick 215 v8
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> Where would be a good place to find one of these engines? (in your backyard,
> under the hood of a $@...&*%,..., where?) I'm not that familliar with
> buicks.
> 
> DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)
Try looking under the hood of early sixties Buick and Olds compacts and
midsize cars. Buick Special (I think) and Olds F85 come to mind.  The
Buick and Olds engines were similar but had different heads if memory serves.

Street Rodder did a "small-engine" issue in the seventies featuring 
this engine. I can dig it out and summarize the article if anyone is
interested.

----------
Posted by: Dave Tartaglia 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug  6 10:38:56 1992
Subject: buick 215 v8
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> i was thinking of using one of those for a engine swap for a porsche
-> 914. do you know how long it is relitive to a small block (283)
-> chevy?

 I'm not sure of the overall length, but you could swap on the timing
cover and water pump from a front-wheel-drive V6 and reclaim another
2-1/2 inches of whatever you have.

 The Buick has a different bolt pattern than the Chevy.  I don't quite
remember, but I have this odd idea it's NOT the standard corporate
(except for Chevy) pattern.
                                                                                       

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug  6 11:47:37 1992
Subject: Re:  buick 215 v8
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Does the chevy V6 run the same bolt pattern as the V8?
I want to do a HO 914 but don't want the troubles of the V8.
I was thinking of either a Buick 215, a Chevy V6 or two RX-7's.
My bone cruncher has a very quick 914, quick in the corners anyway, but it
is severely lacking in ooomph. He wants someone to race with and I have decided
to accomodate him :).
I asked about the V8 conversion on the porsche group and it seems that this idea
is somewhat unweildy ie; too much weight and immense cooling difficulties.
Now the 215 and the V6 will be easy to do and shouldn't disturb the stock
weight distribution hardly at all. I like the idea of two rotaries just because 
of the engineering challenges involved. the exhaust could all snake together
and exit the rear like a GT-40 for that cool racer look :).

Hmmm... just occured to me how bored I am getting putting together all these
stock type cars. :)
***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt            met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto 
1953 3/4 ton Chevy pickumup truck

Not running... yet:
1965 "A" code Mustang
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug  6 09:58:05 1992
Subject: Re: buick 215 v8
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Someone was saying that the 215 would only be good for about 250 max Hp.
>I believe that the "UVA" or "TUV" or something like that, had the 215 cu
>rover/buick engine, and put out around 310 Hp but I don't know if the
>heads were buick.

UVA are UK kit car manufacturers.  They started out selling various
dune buggies.  When they made the Rover/Buick V8 powered Fugative,
they started to sell tweaked engines.  They also make adaptor plates
to fit various engines onto the transaxle from a Renault 30.

TUV are the German organisation that test and approve all modifications
to cars. You're only allowed to use approved aftermarket alloys, steering
wheels etc. Don't even ask about reprogramming your EFI.

>Where would be a good place to find one of these engines? (in your backyard,
>under the hood of a $@...&*%,..., where?) I'm not that familliar with
>buicks.
>
>DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)

Rover first used them in the P6 in about 1968.  You can also find them
in the SD1, Land Rover and Range Rover.  Most of them put out about 150
bhp.  In the early '80s, the SD1 Vitesse was fitted with a 190 bhp fuel
injected version.  There were a small number homologated for Group A
Saloon Car racing with twin plenum chambers.  Nowadays, they're bored
out from 3.5 to 3.9 litres for Range Rovers.  TVR uses them for several
models, some bored out to 4.2 or even 4.5 litres.  They're used in the
TVR Tuscan one make race series (~380 bhp), and by several teams in the
Paris Dakar rally raid.  You can get a fairly docile 250 bhp from the
base engine with reworked heads, carbs, & exhaust.  With wilder cams
and a bored out engine you'll get ~ 300 bhp. Keep adding money and you
can get more.  I've seen a article on a Lotus Seven fitted with a twin
turbo V8 Rover.

----------
Posted by: Andrew Henry 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug  6 10:01:33 1992
Subject: high volume oil pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 Used to, I always put a high volume oil pump in when I did a motor.
It was, you know, just something that was always done.

 I got to thinking about it today.  For a given viscosity and
temperature of oil, only so much is gonna pump through the bearings.
For working purposes let's call it 30wt@200F.  Once the pump hits enough
back pressure to open the popoff valve, it's all over.  Probably a lot
of oil goes through the popoff valve in an ordinary pump; you generally
have to have an engine in dire straits before you start to lose oil
pressure.

 Now, in old-timey hotrods with gaping bearing clearances, you needed
Valvoline Racing 50 and a high volume, high pressure pump to get any oil
pressure at all.  In a modern motor with tight clearances, it looks like
the stock pump would do.
                                                   

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug  6 12:59:23 1992
Subject: Decent book on Automotive Electronics
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I just picked up a decent book on car electronics that does a pretty
good overview of stuff on production cars, at least for the person who 
is not yet an electro-motorhead :-)

"Understanding Automotive Electronics" by William Ribbens, U of Mich, Ann
Arbor.  Sams publishing.  ISBN 0-672-27358-6

If you already know Ohm's law, about half the book is of no interest to 
you.  he does a quick once-over of everything from Ohms law to basic 
logic and process control theory.  My biggest gripe is he tends to throw in 
gratuitous math equations with no explanation of the variables or how to 
use 'em.   The section on engine management is pretty decent.  Good general
info.  This is the book I'd hand to someone who is frightened of the 
stuff under the hood of a modern car.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug  6 16:27:14 1992
Subject: Re:  high volume oil pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 Just about any oil pump will have an overpressure relief mechanism, a spring
and ball arrangement most likely. You can substitute a stiffer spring or 
increase the preload by shimming, as you describe. 

 Chevy engines have the oil pump insided the block, so you have to remove
the oil pan completely to change it out. I think most engines are that
way. The only external-oil-pump engines I have seen are Buicks. If you 
go to the trouble to dick with an internal pump, you might as well just
put in a bigger one in my opinion.

 If your pressure problems are at the low-RPM end then it's probably
volume, not pressure, that you need. High volume/high pressure oil
pumps use bigger gears (axially typically) to run more volume and a stiffer
spring for the pressure increase. 

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug  7 10:21:26 1992
Subject: Re: Read this!!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 I believe Crossfire is TBI by another name. You can get oversized throttle
bodies for more flow, but I think they are comparable to a large 2BBL
ultimately; fine for torque, not so fine for top end. Going to the maximum
OEM-appearing throttle body and maybe extrude-honing out the intake might
satisfy you and the Smog Police.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug  7 12:24:51 1992
Subject: Re: Re: Re:  buick 215 v8
To: hotrod@dixie.com

On the contrary, I am an original owner of a 71 T and had a 64 "C"
before that, in addition to my roadster.  Unless you are particularly
well connected with a machinist or own one yourself and have that 
skill,  you are easily looking at those costs and more when you start
trying to design and build an adapter to put that engine into a 914
and make it work with its drivetrain, not with standing the cooling
situation.  One good way to get a feel for what you might be in for
is to check out a Pantera in your area. The ZF transaxle is a pretty
slick setup with the Cleveland motor but it takes up a sizeable space
when you stop to think of it.  Even with the relative size of the 
215 Bu, if you are planning on the 914 transaxle, you really have 
some major fabrication and machining ahead of you, against what cost.
However, it sounds like a very interesting project.  I believe you 
will find that olds also produced that 215 motor here too.  A good
example of needing this ability and lathe etc is the rear engined
34 Ford in the Sept issue of STREET RODDER. This guy is in our club
and he is a machinist and has a garage full of the tools.  Everything
had to be custom fabricated and made.  It is a beautiful car but
if you had to dig up the $ for the machine work alone, it would really
put a dent in your project plans.  My friend in Visalia is doing just
this conversion, a 914-6 out of a 914 presently.  The tough part is
making this 914 when it is finished pass as a "-6".
Mike Brattland
Brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug  8 01:26:23 1992
Subject: Re: Read this!!
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> This car will be my daily driver. Are there many mods I could do to
-> the cross fire setup for better performance? It feels like there is a
-> Rochester Quadrabog on there now. Under hard acceleration though, the
-> car scats (for a 305) =:^).

 If you can afford it, look at one of the Tuned Port retrofit kits.
For low-buck, scavenge a 4bbl manifold from a junkyard and buy a 650cfm
Carter AFB ($180 from Summit).  You may need a spreadbore-to-Holley
adapter ($10 or so).  The old iron spreadbore intake did as well as
anything in PHR's dyno shootout some years ago; at least up to 4000 RPM
on a 350.  It ought to be great on the 305.

 I favor the Carter AFB over any of the Holleys; they're simpler and
cheaper to tune and don't leak.
                                                                                        

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Aug  9 14:37:58 1992
Subject: Re:  351X
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Yeah Dave I would be interested in this idea.
-> I use 289 rods in my 302's with stock type forged 9:1 pistons for a
-> 11.21:1comp

 Yeah, I've done that too.    BTW, if you build a 351 Windsor, you
can use Australian 302-C rods (6.029) instead of Windsor 5.959 rods for
a bit of compression gain.  B&A Ford sells them for $200/set.  If it
seems like a lot of money for a slightly longer rod, you might be
interested to know the 302 Cleveland rod uses the BOSS 351 forging
instead of the ordinary rod shape.

 Er... the Aussies used to build a 302 variant of the Cleveland for some
unknown reason.  In a 5 liter class it would be interesting, what with
6.029 rods, wot?  Since it kept the 9.201 deck height, you'd have an
advantage over the Chevys and their 9.020 decks.


 Basically, the long rod 302 mod I referred to would use the 2.3
Brazilian rods, which are 5.205 vs 5.090, which is +.115.  The 2300
rod is MUCH beefier than the standard 302 part.  You'll have to narrow
the rod and bearing to get it to fit (normal for swapping alien rods
onto narrow Ford journals).  The rod's journal dia is 2.047, giving you
a max offset grind (less .010) of .076, for (3.076" = 309CID, +.030 =
314.  The 8.206 deck coupled with the .076 offset grind and 5.205 rod
requires a 1.425 pin height piston.  You should be able to shave a
standard D-cup 302 or 400 piston to the right height; pick whichever is
closest to 2300 pin size (I haven't found the 2300's pin size yet)

 You don't have to offset grind the crank, of course, or you can stroke
or destroke to best fit whatever piston pin height you come up with.
You also have a little leeway if you bush the rods, since you can offset
the small end too.
                         

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Aug  9 22:47:35 1992
Subject: Re: composite materials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Here's a solution looking for a problem:  I've been experimenting 
>with molded carbon fiber composites.  Mostly urethane and two part
>epoxies (marine epoxies).  The results are very strong and 
>amazingly stiff.  I've made quite a few prototype "widgets", but 
>nothing particularly useful.
>
>Can anyone think of a useful application for these materials in a 
>hotrod?  Specialty bushings maybe?  Ultrastrong gas caps? ;-)

Sure.  Intake manifolds.  Make the core and gasket surfaces from wax,
lay it up and melt out the wax.  put steel or aluminum inserts where
bolts or studs clamp.  You can make some really kinky things
this way.  The Rutgers SAE team made the intake on their car this way,
only using epoxy and fiberglass.  Carbon fiber should be even better
and surely lighter.

john

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Aug  9 22:57:18 1992
Subject: RE: high volume oil pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com

howdy all....
this is not exactly a hotrod type question...but it is related so don't
flame me too much!! :-)

I have a '75 440 in a 69 Charger.  I am having problems with low oil pressure
at idle when the engine is warm.  When the engine is cold the oil pressure 
stays in the 35-40psi range no matter what RPM.  Once the engine warms up to
normal operating temp, the oil pressure at idle (800-900 rpm) drops to 15-20psi
once the rpm gets up to the 1500+ the oil pressure comes up to the 30-35 psi
range.  I need to keep this engine running for awhile till i can get the $$$
to purchase and rebuild a 69 440 block to put in the charger.

would any of the following help the engine (or my performance??)

1) installing a high volume oil pump?  What about a high pressure oil pump?
  There are differences between a high volume pump and a high pressure pump.
  is there such a thing as a high pressure and high volume pump??

2) changing from a 10W40 oil to a 20W50 oil

3) installing an engine oil cooler to keep the oil temp lower, thus keeping
  the viscosity higher, which in turn will keep the oil pressure higher.
   right?

If a new oil pump would help could you suggest some brands that are
reliable and inexpensive??  any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

-Jeff ( a 69 R/T Charger dude)

----------
Posted by: emory!TRITON.TAMU.EDU!JJP8508
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Aug 10 04:09:04 1992
Subject: Re: composite materials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> Here's a solution looking for a problem:  I've been experimenting 
> with molded carbon fiber composites.  Mostly urethane and two part
> epoxies (marine epoxies).  The results are very strong and 
> amazingly stiff.  I've made quite a few prototype "widgets", but 
> nothing particularly useful.
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: "HUNTRESS GARY B" 
>  
What's new about that?  People have been doing that with fiberglass for a
long time...  But its cool that you've entered the world of composites.
I assume your doing wet layups...  are you weighing your resin and hand
prepegging your fibre?  It makes a huge difference in the weight and strength
of your parts...  resin-rich parts are quite brittle, besides being heavy.
Pulling a vacuum also help considerably.  You mentioned bushings...  I
think you need to do some research into resins before you try to make 
suspension bushing or the like, and probably want to use kevlar instead of
graphite. The general all-purpose resin I use for composite parts is
Dow's Derakane 8084--its not the most rigid resin I've seen, but the durability
of the parts is well worth the tradeoff.  Its a vinyl-ester based resin,
btw.
 I'd like to hear more about what youre doing...  when I was involved with the
SAE student branch at UTexas @ Austin, we did a lot of composite work
(several monocoques, suspension uprights, A-arms, gas tanks, fan shrouds,
etc).
-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Aug 10 04:15:52 1992
Subject: Re: composite materials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> Sure.  Intake manifolds.  Make the core and gasket surfaces from wax,
> lay it up and melt out the wax.  put steel or aluminum inserts where
> bolts or studs clamp.  You can make some really kinky things
> this way.  The Rutgers SAE team made the intake on their car this way,
> only using epoxy and fiberglass.  Carbon fiber should be even better
> and surely lighter.
> 
> Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)

Yep, works great...  although i differ on the material for inserts.  I
usually use a sandwich of hardwood and carbon fiber, since the resin bonds
much better to the wood than it does to aluminum or steel.  
The University of Texas Formula-SAE teams built their new manifold wiht
vinyl-ester resin and carbon fiber.  They even molded the injector bosses
soley out of carbon fiber (no sleeves).  Seems to work well, but last
I talked to them (2 weeks ago) they had no way to know for sure.  Had a
total of about 20 minutes run time on the engine, were having typical
speed-density and sequential injection teething pains, and blew a head
gasket (thats what they get for pulling the head half a dozen times and
not replacing the gasket :).

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Aug 11 02:19:02 1992
Subject: Re: composite materials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> > I assume your doing wet layups...  are you weighing your resin and hand
> > prepegging your fibre? 
> 
> What is "prepegging?"
Cover a table with plastic.  Lay out the fiber or fabric you plan to use.
Weigh out the correct amount of resin for the volume of fiber/fabric
you are using.  Carefully work the resin into the fiber/fabric with a
plastic squeege.  You'll probably need to add a bit of extra resin to
any spots that don't get adequately covered.

> 
> > think you need to do some research into resins before you try to make 
> > suspension bushing or the like, and probably want to use kevlar instead of
> > graphite.
> 
> Why?

Because the mechanical properties of resins vary greatly.  You mentioned
epoxy resins, which are fine for body parts and manifolds but will not
hold up to the impact loads that a suspension bushing receives.
As far as kevlar vs carbon fiber goes, kevlar has a much higher ultimate
strength (although a lower yield strength) than carbon fiber.  Kevlar
can take much more of a pounding, basically.  The difference in deflection
shouldn't be noticeable. 

> 
> DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)
> 
>  

-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From z-car@Dixie.Com Tue Aug 11 18:50:36 1992
Subject: Re: Differentials and Shifters...
To: z-car@Dixie.COM

    Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 13:13 EDT
    From: Derek Taubert 


    > The first is, has anyone needed to replace the differential due to excess
    > play?  I get a good  when shifting and that is the only point of slack
    > in the drivetrain (yes, the U-joints are fine).  A trusted Datsun mechanic
    > says it's marginally in specs.  It can be really annoying sometimes.   Has
    > anyone put in a R-200(?) from a late model ZX? (limited slip would be great!)

    Don't get a new one just yet...  I used to get a decent  too.  Mine  
    happened when applying or removing power to the drivetrain.  It sounded like a  
    loose muffler banging against the underside of the car, but it turned out to be  
    a problem with the rear differetial mount.  The rubber bumpers located above  
    and below the mount's side bushings keep the metal mount from crashing into  
    things when the differential twists, but mine had seen better days.

Are these the big rubber rings where one side looks sorta serated like
the fancy way to cut grapefruit?  [How else to describe it?]

I've got the clunk, a fair amount of backlash in the diff. and smashed
grapefruits.  But, I'd attributed the clunk to the diff. which I didn't
want to rebuild.  

So maybe its the rubber bumpers!! Good.

bruce
miller@cam.nist.gov


From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 04:20:33 1992
Subject: Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Resurrecting an old discussion.

>Varying restrictions on the intake side of the system seems to be
>the thing that the MAP sensor is monitoring though, right? If pumping
>speed and capacity remains constant, then any reduction in
>manifold pressure should result in exactly the same decrease in
>volumetric efficiency... Or so it appears anyway. Of course, the
>density of the intake charge changes somewhat with temperature
>(and fuel mixture, which directly affects temperature again), but
>the volume of air pumped should be very closely proportional to
>the inlet pressure x engine RPM. (Ignoring temperature/density factors)
>The only other variable I can see right off is that valve overlap
>might allow a bit more VE at higher speeds.
>
>Anybody care to shed a little more light on this topic and help
>me get my thinking on this straightened out? :-) I'm trying real
>hard to learn to be a motor-head!

You can't ignore density.  Gas and air combine on a mass basis.
In  other words, it takes X grams of air to ideally burn Y grams
of  gasoline.   We know the ratio of X to Y is about 14.7:1 for
"standard"  gasoline and air.  The density of air varies widely
with temperature in accordance with the gas laws.  the density
of gasoline varies much less with temperature so there is no
offsetting effect.  The amount of gasoline injected MUST vary
with air density and thus the air flow must be  compensated for
temperature.  For a given set of conditions, an engine will pump
a fairly constant VOLUME of air over a fairly wide range of 
temperature.  But it pumps a widely varying MASS of air over
that same range of temperature. 

John


----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 04:40:15 1992
Subject: Flathead Dave (T) mail does bounce !
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 550 Tartaglia... User unknown
> 
>    ----- Unsent message follows -----
> Received: by minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au 
> From: rxkgre (Geof Evans)
> Message-Id: <9208120459.23987@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au>
> Subject: Flatheads...oh yeah !
> To: indy@immacc.prepnet.com
> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 14:59:06 EST
> Cc: Dave, Tartaglia
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
> 
> > > > Hi Geoff,
> > > > 
> > > > If you don't have this issue, you should! So, if you want it, just email me
> > > > your address. I'll send it along.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > --
> > > > Dave Tartaglia    indy@immacc.prepnet.com             === ZZ-|O\- .. _   
> > > >                                          VAROOOOM!......=(_)-=======(_)===
> > > 
> > > <<<* You betcha Dave ! I want this sorta stuff like I want '32 Hiboy.
> > >      And that's bad ! My address is 3 Clarkson ave. Brighton Victoria 3186
> > >                                                              Australia.
> > > 
> > >      If you tell me your costs (postage, photocopying) and your address
> > >      I'll not only reimburse you I'll even drop in and say Hi when the 
> > >      wife and I are in the U.S.A. over christmas. Keep right on roddin'!
> > >      And many thanx mate.
> > >                          CFN (ciao for now)
> > >                          Bigfoot.Big gas pedal.Bigtime.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

----------
Posted by: emory!minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU!rxkgre (Geof Evans)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 04:51:56 1992
Subject: Mail keepa bouncing...Flathead Dave.
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Subject: Flatheads...
To: rxkgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 10:39:35 EDT
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Status: RO

issue was devoted to the Ford Flathead. All the feature cars and all the tech
articles are about flatheads. Most of the advertisers selling flathead parts
are still around, too.

If you don't have this issue, you should! So, if you want it, just email me
your address. I'll send it along.

Regards,
--
Dave Tartaglia    indy@immacc.prepnet.com             === ZZ-|O\- .. _   
                                         VAROOOOM!......=(_)-=======(_)===

<<<* Hey double yeah ! I want that sorta stuff like I want a 32 Hiboy.
     Like bad ! My address is 3 Clarkson ave.Brighton Melbourne Australia 3186.
     If you send me your address I'll not only reimburse ya but me and the wife
     will drop in to say "Hi !" when we're in the U.S.A. over Xmas/new Year.
     Like many thanx mate...keep a' roddin'.
                                           CFN (ciao for now)
                                           Bigfoot.Big gas pedal.Bigtime.

----------
Posted by: emory!minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU!rxkgre (Geof Evans)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 05:51:55 1992
Subject: Re: composite materials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> 
> OK.  Here's an ignorant question for you.  People have mentioned
> using composites for intake manifolds but I don't think I've heard
> mention of using them for an exhaust manifold.
> 
> Something tells me the heat would be too great or perhaps there
> might be a problem with mounting the things so stress doesn't cause
> them to crack but I don't really know.  I still have some nasty
> header plumbing ahead of me and I wonder if learning about these
> composites might be better then trying to fabricate with pipes.
> 
> Jeff Miller                 Network Systems Corporation
> Advanced Development        7625 Boone Avenue North
> jmiller@network.com         Minneapolis MN 55428   (612)493-1085
> 

If memory serves me correctly, carbon fibre ignites at approx 900F.  I've
had carbon fiber parts ignite during an electric fire.  I'm not sure what
factor the resin (LTM-12 i think it was) played.  Anyway, exhaust temp can
get pretty high, not sure how high, but I think its too high for carbon fiber
to be practical.  Besides, a nice set of coated headers will probably look
better than carbon fiber.  Its hard to get a nice finish on both the inside
and outside...


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 10:55:58 1992
Subject: Re:  head swap...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>Here is the deal, I have a 360 1976 engine, and I want to swap some heads
>onto them that are off of my old 318, which were worked over very
>recently, so the question is, would it be really necasary to swap the
>valves out of the 360 to the 318 heads...i dont remebre the differance in
>valve sizes and I can  not find my book now, (realy have to clean this
>place some day)...but someone told me that doing this would increase
>torque and low rpm and kill top end...but would I still be able to get
>enough fuel through the valves to properly run the engine with out burning
>anything up?...the cam is above stock, advertised duration 292 and lift of
>.455(?)...the rear gears are stock at 2.75..around there...so i think that
>I will be fine though the band, low mid and upper...but is there ANY
>reason that I need to put bigger valves on ???
>
The valves on 273-318 engines are smaller than those on on the
340 or the 360.  From memory, the 340 had 2.02 Intake, 1.6 exhaust,
the 360 had 1.88 intake, 1.6 exhaust, and the 273-318 (both the
same) were substantially smaller.

Your 360 heads have hardened valve seats for unleaded fuel.  If
the 318 is older than 73 (maybe 72), it has the older style
seats.  In theory, you can get away with this, but possibly for
a smaller number of miles than you might prefer.

You can put the 318 heads on the 360, and things will work (be
careful putting a 360 intake on the 318 heads - larger ports,
you know).  The person was correct, top end would suffer, bottom
end likely would, as well, in my opinion.  Milage might increase,
however.  I suspect the increase would be small.

All in all, if you're going through the trouble of pulling heads
in the first place, I'd go ahead and get the 360 ones rebuilt.

Don't bother putting 360 valves in the 318 heads.  By the time
you have finished, you'll have oddball heads, with terrible
flow mismatch between ports and valves, and you will have sunk
enough money into it to have rebuilt the 360 heads in the first
place.

If you're looking for economy, look to changing out the cam,
going to headers, and look at new intakes and carbs.  After this,
the heads might be a logical further step.

360 heads should be cheap to get.  Maybe $150-$200 for a good pair?

Paul Anderson

----------
Posted by: emory!hri.com!pha (Paul Anderson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 10:56:34 1992
Subject: Re: :  high volume oil pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com



Begin forwarded message:


 > Don't AMC V8s use external oil pumps like a Buick?

YESSIRREEBOB

BTW: I got my Z-28. Details to follow.
---
**********************************************************
Scott Colbath
Stratus Computer
Phoenix, Az.  (602)852-3106
Internet:scott_colbath@az.stratus.com
**********************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!tucson.az.stratus.com!scol (Scott Colbath)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 10:58:36 1992
Subject: Vega Parts
To: hotrod@dixie.com

  Hey Dave!!

    send me more info on the parts you have..
ie: kayaba shocks, nylon bushings, tilt column etc..
also what ever else you have lying around.

 My e-mail address is mfugazzo@resdgs1.er.usgs.gov

 anyone else with Vega/Monza parts feel free to e-mail.


                                Mark Fugazzotto.

----------
Posted by: emory!resdgs1.er.usgs.gov!mfugazzo (Mark Fugazzotto)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 12:55:00 1992
Subject: Anyone Get Wet ???
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I've been hearing from friends who went to Louisville for the NATS

heard it rained like crazy - cars parked in primo spots on the
blacktop were up to their wheels & higher in water

If you went, how did you fair?

Sharen

----------
Posted by: emory!iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com!sharen (Sharen A. Rund)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 16:27:26 1992
Subject: Stand-alone pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
> No, they're typical types that need a housing.  What year/model are
>those Subaru pumps, and how much to they cost?  They sound useful.

Not sure of the model.  Back when I bought a handfull, I recall there 
being simply one "subaru".  They used to be pretty cheap, less than
$30.  I've exhausted my stock and was hopeing to find something
more modern.  Maybe I need to go peruse the catalog at the local parts
emporium.

Speaking of pumps, back to the oil scavenging question.  My "throne reading"
for the day was Nissan's new Motorsports catalog.  Under the section 
labeled Differential Oil Cooler Assembly is a 12 volt powered oil pump,
Nissan P/N 21660-P9000.  IT is a Hitachi pump, rated at 1.5gpm and
draws 4 amps.  No idea of the price.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Wed Aug 12 17:04:24 1992
Subject: Re:  composite materials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I have been thinking along the lines of removing the stock waterpump on my 302
and using the nice little belt driven unit from a '90 2.5L Taurus. Low power
requirements and no chance of cavitation upto ~12,000 rpm's. Two of these, 
plumbed one to a side with a nice belt and some SS braid should give my Cougar
some more of that high tech look.
 A timing cover made from composites with a nice boss for the lines and 
removal of the waterpump upper mounting surface (for looks and to 
facilitate access of the upper two bolts) and a set of O-ring grooves
for the crank snout would make me VERY happy.


***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt            met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto 
1953 3/4 ton Chevy pickumup truck

Not running... yet:
1965 "A" code Mustang
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Wed Aug 12 18:13:35 1992
Subject: Re: MAS vs BMAP flow measuring
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Resurrecting an old discussion.
...
>You can't ignore density.  Gas and air combine on a mass basis.
>In  other words, it takes X grams of air to ideally burn Y grams
>of  gasoline.   We know the ratio of X to Y is about 14.7:1 for
>"standard"  gasoline and air.  The density of air varies widely
>with temperature in accordance with the gas laws.  the density
>of gasoline varies much less with temperature so there is no
>offsetting effect.  The amount of gasoline injected MUST vary
>with air density and thus the air flow must be  compensated for
>temperature.  For a given set of conditions, an engine will pump
>a fairly constant VOLUME of air over a fairly wide range of 
>temperature.  But it pumps a widely varying MASS of air over
>that same range of temperature. 

I fairly well(?) understand the importance of air temperature and
density changes. The reason that I chose to "ignore" it in my look
at speed-density vs. air mass was because air temperature/density
changes can easily be measured and compensated for by a MPU with
a simple temperature sensor. There doesn't seem to be a real need
for a air-mass sensor to detect these changes, you just measure
(and make allowance) for them in a sightly less direct manner,
right? Of course, any cooling that takes place downstream of the
temperature sensor (such as from the injected fuel itself),
will have to be compensated for also.
Here's something I'm not clear on though. Is the increase in air
density (from cooling) proportional to the amount of fuel mixed
with it? If the relationship is linear, then it could again be
easily compensated for by the MPU.
Up to this point, I hadn't seen any major advantages to the air-
mass measurement system... And tuning of a pressure-density system
didn't APPEAR to need to be that much more difficult.
Then, when intake and exhaust resonances were considered, my whole
apple-cart got upset. No more linear relationships between air MASS
and speed-density...
Since my apple cart has been upset before, I won't mind if someone
does it again :-) Actually, I hope that you will! It will help me
to understand better... (so will PE, when it comes out :-))

Thanks,
Greg Granville
jsb@ecl.psu.edu

----------
Posted by: GREG GRANVILLE 
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Wed Aug 12 18:29:04 1992
Subject: Re: composite materials
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Does  that mean the Pinto water pump is stand-alone?  I'm looking for
-> a replacement part for the ancient Subaru pumps I've used in the past
-> to pump water to an air/water intercooler.

 No, they're typical types that need a housing.  What year/model are
those Subaru pumps, and how much to they cost?  They sound useful.
                                                                                                              

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Wed Aug 12 19:08:16 1992
Subject: Street Rod Rake...continued
To: hotrod@dixie.com


While perusing some old rod mags (my collection goes back to '54 or so)
I came across an answer to my own question.  Hot rodders of the late forties
and fifties used to swap out the full elliptic rear suspension of Model T's
for the high arched half elliptic of the Model A. Viola! Hot Rod Rake!
(Yes, Mike B, they ARE Bitchin')

Speaking of Model T's, other than glass Tbuckets, not many have been seen
recently. Norm Grabowski (Kookie Kar) is building a tub (glass or steel?).
Steel model T's got too expensive/rare/out-of-fashion for a while. But I
think this may change in the next few years. Here's why:

Restored T's are appearing less frequently at antique car shows. Their owners
are mostly in their 60s and 70s and can't keep them forever.  I've noticed
that the asking prices for nice restored tubs, coupes, sedans, and even
roadsters have really dropped. More so than later models.  Younger restorers
just aren't interested in cars they can't drive regularly.

Which means straight, rust-free, street-rod-bait at reasonable prices for us.

The resurgence of fifties styling in rods should make for some neat rides.  
I can see myself in an open tub, with whitewalls, smitties, and Model A 
rear spring!
  

----------
Posted by: Dave Tartaglia 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 19:54:57 1992
Subject: a confusing thing...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I just thought I would let everybody know something that I found out...
After I replaced my intake manifold, from time to time oil would appear in
small puddles on the intake manifold, with no apparent source.  I later found
out that oil was being pushed up through the bolt holes around the bolts, and
therefore into puddles on my intake.  I guess that my crankcase pressure
is too high.  Just a point of info for future reference...
-Bob CUnningham

----------
Posted by: Bob Cunningham 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 23:45:02 1992
Subject: Re: 289 Mustang
To: hotrod@dixie.com



>>I've got the tires, looking for the right cam, but what do I do about the
>>rear end?  Is it easy to change the ratio?  Buy new gears and just open 'er up
>>and change em?  I haven't messed with the rear end.  I imagine nobody has
>>touched it during the 25 years of its life.  Are rebuilds necessary? 

You can leave the rearend as is, or change the ratio and type.  It sounds
like the rearend ratio is pretty low (numerically) on yours.  You should be 
looking at the whole engine/transmission/rearend setup as a system, i.e., if 
you go with a numerically high rearend ratio such as a 4.11, you will increase 
your acceleration, but then your cruise RPM's on the freeway will be way up
there. This can be partially offset by an overdrive transmission.  You can
go to four or five speed tranny, and tailor the rearend ratio to get a
compromise. 

If you want the formulae to figure out what sort of RPM's you'll get in 
each gear, I can post or email them to you. You'll probably want a max
of 3000 RPM at 60 MPH in top gear for compromising between acceleration 
and mileage, the lower the better for mileage, but you will want the first 
gear/axle combination (1st gear times rear gear) to be at least around 9 
or 10:1 or higher. See what you have now, and go from there.

As for rebuilding, these units are pretty tough; unless there's whining or
clunking or other strange noises, about all you have to do is change the oil;
even that's something not done very often, (I seem to recall 90 to 100K miles 
for light duty use).

It's easy to remove the center section from a Ford rearend, but, 
unless you have special tools and a good manual, its probably better to
leave work on the center section to a shop.  To remove the center section,
undo the driveshaft at the differential, remove the four bolts at each
end of the axle which attach the brake backing plate and axle retaining plate,
and pull the axles out about 4" on each side.  You don't even have to 
remove the brakes.  Remove the 10 bolts holding the center section in, and 
pull it out. Beware, it weighs over 60 lbs!

You can then bring it down to a shop and have them change the ratios for you,
or you can go to a junkyard and find a diff with another ratio and pop it
in, and keep yours for a spare.  Or you could even get a rebuilt with a Posi
setup.  Lots of possibilities. There are shops around that specialize in this -
I bought a rebuilt 8" Posi unit for around $280 a few years back.

One more thing, if you change the rearend ratio, you will have to change
the drive gear(s) on your speedometer cable.

----------
Posted by: emory!wv.MENTORG.COM!derekd (Derek Deeter)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Aug 12 23:53:43 1992
Subject: Re: a confusing thing...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> I just thought I would let everybody know something that I found out...
> After I replaced my intake manifold, from time to time oil would appear in
> small puddles on the intake manifold, with no apparent source.  I later found
> out that oil was being pushed up through the bolt holes around the bolts, and
> therefore into puddles on my intake.  I guess that my crankcase pressure
> is too high.  Just a point of info for future reference...
> -Bob CUnningham

What's even more confusing is trying to figure out what kind of car you 
have :-)

DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)

----------
Posted by: emory!wrs.com!johnson (David Johnson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 03:13:35 1992
Subject: Re: Re:  buick 215 v8
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Why the V-8 or V-6 with all the fabrication problems and major
-> expense. Why not consider a conversion to a 914-6 and spend your $ in
-> the type and horsepower you want in a 911 motor.

 How much would a rebuilt, mildly modified 911 motor cost?  You can pick
up a 229 V6 or 350 V8 for about $600 around here, with accessories.
You'll need mounts and an adaptor, you'd have to change exhaust systems
anyway.  Unless the adapter is extremely expensive or the Porsche engine
is real cheap, it looks like it might be less expensive to go with the
Chevy.  And a stock junkyard motor that doesn't smoke too bad would
probably suck the headlights out of the Porsche; it's hard to argue with
a big fat torque curve.  And there's no reason the Chevy has to stay
stock.

 Besides, you'd just have a homemade 914/6.  You can cruise the car lots
and BUY one of those.  This is the hotrod list - how can we fit a 454
in?
                                       

>From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Aug  7 01:06:56 1992
X-Delivered: at request of hotrod on rsiatl
Return-Path: 
Received: by dixie.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.6)
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Subject: mail failed, returning to sender
Reference: 

|------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------|
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Newsgroups: wiz.hotrod
Subject: Re: Lightweight blocks
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
Reply-to: hotrod@dixie.com
Posted-Date: Friday, Aug 07 01:03:26
X-Sequence: 1931
Approved: jgd@dixie.com


-> Haven't heard or thought about the Huffaker name for many years.  Is
-> Huffaker still in Marin County?

 Beats me.  I read about Huffaker parts in some Brit mags.  Does anyone
have an address for Huffaker?
                                                                                                      

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 


----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 07:15:09 1992
Subject: Re: Stand-alone pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Speaking of pumps, back to the oil scavenging question.  My "throne reading"
> for the day was Nissan's new Motorsports catalog.  Under the section 
> labeled Differential Oil Cooler Assembly is a 12 volt powered oil pump,
> Nissan P/N 21660-P9000.  IT is a Hitachi pump, rated at 1.5gpm and
> draws 4 amps.  No idea of the price.
> 
> John

My Racing Beat catalog has a Nippondenso "Differential/Transmission
Cooling Pump" list.  Not sure if RB still sells it (they haven't update
the catalog since 1986, just the price list which I can't locate at the
moment).  No specs on flow, just tells that its a 12VDC permanent magnet
motor and a gear type pump, and that it has -6AN fittings.  Racing Beat
reccomended a pump and external cooler when Mazda Factory Racing trannys
(which they no longer sell, I'm pretty sure) were used in road racing
applications (They reccomended keeping tranny fluid temp under 200F, and
strongly discouraged continuous tranny fluid temps above 300F).


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 07:19:51 1992
Subject: Re: a confusing thing...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> > 
> > I just thought I would let everybody know something that I found out...
> > After I replaced my intake manifold, from time to time oil would appear in
> > small puddles on the intake manifold, with no apparent source.  I later found
> > out that oil was being pushed up through the bolt holes around the bolts, and
> > therefore into puddles on my intake.  I guess that my crankcase pressure
> > is too high.  Just a point of info for future reference...
> > -Bob CUnningham
> 
> What's even more confusing is trying to figure out what kind of car you 
> have :-)
> 
Oil on the intake I can live with...  coolant inside the valve covers and
out the outer edge of the heads on my freshly built engine really freaked me
out once.  Had used ARP head studs on my new SBC and forgot to seal the ones
that went into the water jacket.  Water was oozing thru the threads of
the nuts.  At least we caught it before the engine ever started (we had
tried to start it many times...  finally threw our brand new Electromotive
HPV3 direct fire ignition system in the scrap metal closet and dropped in
a Unilite).


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 12:54:32 1992
Subject: Re: Stand-alone pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com

On the subject of diff coolers, when I finnaly do install one, should I plumb
the return line so that the cooled fluid pours onto the top of the ring gear?

***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt            met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto 
1953 3/4 ton Chevy pickumup truck

Not running... yet:
1965 "A" code Mustang
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 14:48:34 1992
Subject: Differential Cooling
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 It would seem to me that you could obtain adequate fluid cooling by having
internal and external fins on the diff cover. Though a pump does give you the
possibility of filtration, it seems to be a lot of extra activity given the
general robustness of differentials I have seen. It might be more important if
you generate a lot of posi filings...

 As far as dumping cooler diff oil directly onto the ring gear, the bottom half
of the ring gear is immersed in oil anyway (unless you're low) and a trickle 
of cooler oil isn't likely to do much against the gear's thermal mass. If I
were me I'd plumb three feeds - one to each of the inner bearings and one to
drizzle on the center section and its spider gears. The ring gear gets plenty
of oil but the other moving parts get by on splash.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 16:35:42 1992
Subject: Torque Arms for differentials
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 I was looking through a car mag last night and saw a Mustang which used a
torque arm to stabilize the rear end (as well as a lateral stabilizer thingy
with two links and a pivot). Anyway, the torque arm looked pretty homebrew
although nicely fabricated; a multi-tube weldment that ran up along the 
driveshaft a ways to a pivot, and was bolted around the face of the Ford
carrier. Obviously the idea was to unload the torque from the leaf springs.
Apparently this guy had a bunch of suspension stuff professionally done to
his Mach 1 so he could autocross it.

 I believe the Monza.Skyhawk.Starfire cars had something like
this from the factory except in aluminum. So, being in sort of a quandary
about how to get the dinosaur rear hooked up to my car, I'm mulling over
something using this approach. Two locator links for fore-aft, a torque
arm for attitude and a panhard for lateral location. This could end up
being the simplest route (esp. if the Monza torque arm happens to be
(a) strong enough and (b) boltable).

 So why are torque arms not more popular? They look like the most direct
solution to the torque transfer problem - better than multilink setups
with ears on the pumpkin, etc. The pumpkin is the optimum torque control
point - no axle or spring flex comes into it then. But I'm not super keen
on welding to the case. A bolt-up torque member could be the easy way out
if there's not something missing from the picture.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 17:47:47 1992
Subject: Re:  Torque Arms for differentials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Speaking of suspension systems. Can someone recommend a good book on
basic suspension design. Something with the performance car in mind.
Esp. one that deals with the good old live axles as well as independants.

The reason I ask. There are too many postings like James Swonger's which
I don't understand so I need to do some larnin'. Or should I just wait
for a sample issue of PE. ;-)

				mike

----------
Posted by: emory!hamlet.ctd.anl.gov!shaffer
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 17:53:11 1992
Subject: Re: Torque Arms for differentials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Anyway, the torque arm looked pretty homebrew
> although nicely fabricated; a multi-tube weldment that ran up along the 
> driveshaft a ways to a pivot, and was bolted around the face of the Ford
> carrier. 
>  I believe the Monza.Skyhawk.Starfire cars had something like
> this from the factory except in aluminum. 

The IROC's also have a set-up like this. It is basically an angle channel
that runs up to the rear tranny cross-member. 

> Two locator links for fore-aft, 

The torque arm should locate the rearend for and aft (if you make it strong
enough so that it will not deviate from 90 degrees WRT the rearend),
and the panard rod will locate it laterally. (as you said).
I always wanted to do a Watts linkage setup on my Firebird, but got caught
up in the independant rear suspension game...you might want to consider one.

DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)

----------
Posted by: emory!wrs.com!johnson (David Johnson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 18:25:58 1992
Subject: Composits
To: hotrod@dixie.com

following is a note I received from Greg regarding composites.  Greg is
one of the authors in the sample edition of PE.  I think you'll find his article
on a rather innovative semi-independent suspension system for Formula
Vee racing quite interesting and applicable to other arenas.

If you call 'em, be sure to drop PE's name in the conversation.  I wanna
sell them some advertising :-)

John
---------------------------------------------------------------

>You may wish to contact GOUGEON BROTHERS, INC. at 100 Patterson Avenue, Bay
>City, Michigan 48706 or by phone at (517) 684-7286 regarding features on
>composites. They manufacture West System brand resins, hardeners, additives,
>reinforcing materials, tools, and supplies. I have used their products in the
>past, and it is phenomenal stuff. They also send out newsletters on different
>applications of their products as well as plans for various boats and other
>projects. Good folks. At minimum, there may be some advertising in it for
>you...
>
>						Greg "VEE" Bogoshian
>						gvb.wbst311@xerox.com
>


-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 18:48:48 1992
Subject: Re:  Torque Arms for differentials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

    Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:21 EDT
    From: hotrod@Dixie.COM (The Hotrod List)

    Speaking of suspension systems. Can someone recommend a good book on
    basic suspension design. Something with the performance car in mind.
    Esp. one that deals with the good old live axles as well as independants.

				    mike
Fred Puhn's "How to make your car handle" is very worthwhile.  It goes
through a lot of basics and principles and is written with a sense of
humor.

But it occasionally stops a bit short of things I'd like to know just
for my own interest, not necessarily what I absolutely need.

For example, I know exactly what the roll center is and how to compute
it.   But I still dont know what it directly affects other than weight
transfer (vaguely?), why it should be above the road (assuming it
should?), etc. 

There's also a plethora of names used for various links and whatnot that
he doesn't explain in detail.  Why does an exotic handle like an exotic?

So, can anyone suggest any other good books as supplement, `advanced'
or whatever?  

bruce
miller@cam.nist.gov

----------
Posted by: Bruce R. Miller 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 18:54:04 1992
Subject: Re:  Torque Arms for differentials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Speaking of suspension systems. Can someone recommend a good book on
> basic suspension design. Something with the performance car in mind.
> Esp. one that deals with the good old live axles as well as independants.

Fred Puhn's book _How_To_Make_Your_Car_Handle_ is an excellent book for
the beginner. It is published by HP Books, and should be available through
any performance parts house. 

DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)

----------
Posted by: emory!wrs.com!johnson (David Johnson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 19:24:02 1992
Subject: Stand-alone pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> more modern.  Maybe I need to go peruse the catalog at the local
-> parts emporium.

 I'll try to do the same.  Maybe we can come up with more than one
option.

 BTW, my brother came in from Delaware with his Chevy parts.  He had
everything except the rings.  For kicks, we called around town and found
that local prices were a fraction cheaper than Summit/PAW/RHS.  Neat!
The prices were running around $55.  Kevin tried AutoZone, which had TRW
+.030 Chevy rings for $18.88.  ZOOOOMMMMM.... we went down and bought a
set.

 Just playing around, we thought we'd check ring vertical clearance.
BAWK!  The fancy Keith Black pistons use .060 rings.  Standard Chevy
rings are .078.  We go back to AutoZone, where they play computer games
trying to reference something.

 "Do you have a book?"  I ask.

 "A what?"

 "A *parts* book.  TRW, Sealed Power, Hastings, you know.  Rings."

 "Oh."  The counterlady rummages around under the counter, comes up with
a dusty tome and stares at it blankly.

 "Let me have that," I say.  Lady attaches herself to book with a
deathgrip.  "Here, let me have it, you can wait on someone else."  Lady
reluctantly surrenders book.

 Unfortunately, only one or two oddball applications used .060 rings
standard, and AutoZone couldn't get them.  The clerk couldn't quite
understand that the rings wouldn't fit and didn't want to give us our
money back.  We unwrapped a ring set and showed her the ring wouldn't
fit the groove.  The assistant manager comes over and suggests maybe if
the 30 over rings didn't fit, we could try 40 over...

 Where do they GET these people?
                                                                                                                              

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Aug 13 23:56:21 1992
Subject: Torque Arms for differentials
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>> So why are torque arms not more popular? They look like the most direct
>>solution to the torque transfer problem - better than multilink setups
>>with ears on the pumpkin, etc. The pumpkin is the optimum torque control
>>point - no axle or spring flex comes into it then. But I'm not super keen
>>on welding to the case. A bolt-up torque member could be the easy way out
>>if there's not something missing from the picture.

Interesting idea.  The newest RX-7 uses a torque arm, but it has an IRS.
It seems to me that the reason most live axle cars don't have these is probably
the usual - cost, weight, and they could get away without using it.  Also, if
you attach the torque arm to the top of the diff to use as an upper locator 
link (via pivots), there is not much to be gained over using shorter upper 
arms, since, in that case, torque is then mostly handled through the lower 
arms. 

With the torque arm bolted to the diff, I only see one problem, and that's if 
you have average suspension travel (around 4 inches or so bump travel).  The 
problem is that the torque arm has a way long radius, say around 5 feet, and 
the lower links have a shorter radius, probably around 20".  So, as the
suspension moves up and down, the lower links move the axle fore and aft 
about 3 times farther than the torque arm does. For 4" of upward travel, the 
top of the pumpkin moves forward about .14", while the bottom moves about .39",
for a difference of about .25". Now, this quarter inch difference has to be 
taken up somewhere, but if the torque arm is bolted to the differential, there 
are only two places for this movement to be taken up - either by the bushings 
in the lower links and torque arm, or by bending the torque arm itself.  If 
everything is inflexible, then your suspension will bind, i.e., it will 
either stop travel when all the clearances are taken up, or something will 
break, eventually.  Basically the same reason why they don`t use ladder bars
with leaf springs unless floating axle spring mounts are included.

If the torque arm is mounted to the diff via pivots, then any torque advantages 
from the arm are lost, and we're back to parallel links. On the other hand, if 
the torque arm is bolted to the diff, and there are leaf springs or upper and 
lower links, then the front of the torque arm should be free to move fore and 
aft to avoid binding; this can be done with an arm to body link, such as used
at the ends of anti-sway bars. 

With the leaf spring setup as in this auto-X Mustang, my guess is that either 
suspension travel is probably a couple inches at best and the leaf spring 
takes up all the flex, or possibly he is using floating mounts as well.

I just got done redoing my rear axle with parallel links and panhard rod, and
it seems to be working fine, so far.

----------
Posted by: emory!wv.MENTORG.COM!derekd (Derek Deeter)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 00:03:27 1992
Subject: Differential Cooling
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> It would seem to me that you could obtain adequate fluid cooling by
-> having internal and external fins on the diff cover.

 A fifty cent stick-on thermometer attached to the diff cover would tell
you if you needed a cooler.  Just peek under the car after a hard run.
When your buddies ask what it's for, you could just look mysterious.
                                                                                                     

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 05:41:38 1992
Subject: flow bench
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 I'm thinking about building my own flow bench.  Manometers are easy to
make, and cheap to buy if I get fancy.  A friend of mine is a HVAC
designer; we poked through some of his catalogs at likely-looking
blowers and found pricing in the $200 and up range.  Argh.

 I have a couple of old turbochargers around, but I can't think of any
reasonable way to drive one with an electric motor.  If one of those
little Eaton superchargers was handy it'd be different, but...

 Looks like I might try to scavenge some smaller blowers and settle for
10 or 15 in/H2O pressure drop until I can come up with some money.

 Hmm... I need to check my Omega catalog and see what they have for
sensors.  It might be interesting to build a digital bench instead of
fiddling around with manometers.
                                                                          

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 05:53:50 1992
Subject: Re: flow bench
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> I'm thinking about building my own flow bench.  Manometers are easy to
>make, and cheap to buy if I get fancy.  A friend of mine is a HVAC
>designer; we poked through some of his catalogs at likely-looking
>blowers and found pricing in the $200 and up range.  Argh.
>
> Looks like I might try to scavenge some smaller blowers and settle for
>10 or 15 in/H2O pressure drop until I can come up with some money.
>
> Hmm... I need to check my Omega catalog and see what they have for
>sensors.  It might be interesting to build a digital bench instead of
>fiddling around with manometers.

A couple of ways.  One, use a gasoline-powered leaf blower.  I have one
that I've played with a bit.  One of the large backpack units with the
~30 cc engine.  A bit of port work, a better exhaust and a larger
carburator (oh my gawd, we're starting the lawn implement thread again)
and that little sucker will move some air.  Remember that a blower's
capacity goes up with the square of speed so a little speed means a lot.

Second option.  vacuum cleaner fans.  Grangers sells 1 hp replacement
capsules for about $60.  Two or three of these things mounted on a
55 gal drum, preferably filled with something like coarse steel wool for
flow straightening, will do the trick.  I think I know where there
are several of these that can be had for the taking.. Hehehe.

Dave, I'm planning a flowbench article for the magazine.  If you beat
me to building a unit, you can write the article :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 07:00:18 1992
Subject: Re: "Turbo Tom's" still in business?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

RE: Turbo Tom's.

[more ancient history.]

>The above outfit used to market a high-end aftermarket
>turbocharger kit for Datsun Z's and 510's (and perhaps
>other vehicles).  They were located in Peachtree, GA.

He is still sorta in business.  I'm not sure really what he does.  I 
called him about 6 months ago to chat.  He said he was not doing turbo
kits anymore and was concentrating on "high end suspension components."
I had someone tell me at the Z-car convention that he was doing 
aircraft work (!).  I know that he was scheduled to give a talk on
turbocharging but stood us up with no explanation.  I heard another
rumor from someone else that he is selling Electromotive EFI systems.
Who knows?

Anyway, his number is 404 458 5055.

>P.S. The turbos in question used a 4-barrel holley and
>     a draw-through turbocharger in place of the stock
>     SU's.  Output was supposed to be in the 300HP range...

yep.  I have one.  Piece o'sh*t.  Tom was deathly afraid of electronics,
didn't believe in intercooling and thought heavy water injection 
was the cureall to detonation woes.  The nice part about his kit,
as you probably already know, is he had custom cast iron exhaust
manifolds cast to directly bolt to the turbo.  I have used his  
exhaust manifold on several turbo conversions.  The intake system 
is junk and should be scrapped.  If you can't do anything else,
dump the Holley and that hokey power valve enrichment scheme of his
and install a ProJection 2 barrel.  Far from ideal but workable.

The optimal conversion is to use the stock 280 FI manifold, have
it extrude-honed, fit up the large Weber throttle body, install
a spearco intercooler in front of the radiator, pipe the thing up
so the throttle body is blown through and install an aftermarket 
EFI - or build your own.  Optionally, fit the porsche blower bypass
valve that bypasses the fan on closed throttle to help keep the rotor
turning and reduce throttle lag.

Another resource regarding Datsun turbocharging is a fellow named
David Piper.  He's in Greenville, SC and can be reached at 803 277 1343.
He has by far and away the fastest Z-car I've ever driven at the 
convention.  His installation is fairly close to what I described above.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 09:23:26 1992
Subject: Re:  flow bench
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 How much flow do you get out of, say, a furnace blower (The big centrifugal
ones that feed about a square foot cross-section plenum)? These guys have a
huge squirrel cage and a large AC motor. I'm sure they move more air than a
"normal" engine would take, though I'm not sure about the pressure. But then,
at least for normally aspirated engines, the whole point is to have minimal
pressure drop...

 I bet if you used the air hardware and switched over to a belt drive with
bearings, and overdrove the squirrel cage to where it got to screamin' you
could develop some pressure too. Judging from the air velocity coming out
the leaks in my A/C head, I'd guess it runs at least 10PSI in normal use 
at easily 600CFM. 

 I picked one up by the side of the road the other week. Got 15KW of heating
element coils for my kiln project and a blower for my clean-air-into-garage-
for-painting project and a whole mess of sheet metal for the hell of it.

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 09:48:12 1992
Subject: Re:  Torque Arms for differentials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 I will have to go find that suspension book I guess, before I do something
well intentioned and poorly thought out. 

 Looking more closely at the Monza setup in the book, the front pivot is
sort of a bungee mount to allow torsional and maybe some fore-aft movement
on the torque arm. I think a sliding tubular end mount could allow the 
necessary freedoms without compromising torque control in the intended
axis. That would leave only the locator arms as fixed-length links, and 
leave them with only the horizontal plane location and angle to deal with.

 As long as we're daydreaming here, has anyone done an IRS conversion on a
GM A-body or other "big" car? Jag or 'Vette rears, or what? Keeping in mind
an expected driveshaft torque max of maybe 800 lb-ft, are there (m)any
options?

----------
Posted by: emory!mlb.semi.harris.com!jws (James W. Swonger)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 11:23:54 1992
Subject: Books...
To: hotrod@dixie.com





>Fred Puhn's "How to make your car handle" is very worthwhile.  It goes
>through a lot of basics and principles and is written with a sense of
>humor.

>But it occasionally stops a bit short of things I'd like to know just
>for my own interest, not necessarily what I absolutely need.

>For example, I know exactly what the roll center is and how to compute
>it.   But I still dont know what it directly affects other than weight
>transfer (vaguely?), why it should be above the road (assuming it
>should?), etc. 

>There's also a plethora of names used for various links and whatnot that
>he doesn't explain in detail.  Why does an exotic handle like an exotic?

>So, can anyone suggest any other good books as supplement, `advanced'
>or whatever?  

>bruce
>miller@cam.nist.gov


Here are some other additions to the suspension book list:

1. "Tune to Win" - Carroll Smith 


   This book takes what Puhn does in his book and builds upon it. Only
   slightly more in-depth but a good book nonetheless.

2. "Class Notes on Vehicle Dynamics" - David Cole, University of
    Michigan.

    Cole is now more politically involved in the auto business than he
    once was, but these notes get right down to the nuts and bolts and
    math behind vehicle handling and suspensions. The version I have is
    one I had when I was at Michelin. There is supposedly a new, updated
    version out. These can be had by calling the University of Michigan
    bookstore. Or if someone wants a copy of my old version, contact me
    by e-mail and I can work something out. 

3. "New Directions in Suspension Design" - Colin Campbell

    This is a good book that tends to be both mathematical and 
    application oriented at the same time. He does a nice analysis
    of the Porsche 928. 

There's a new book on vehicle dynamics by Thonas Gillespie that SAE
is pushing very hard. It looks like decent book but I haven't 
actually seen a copy yet. 

As far as having a roll center below the ground, there was only one 
vehicle at Michelin that we analyzed that had a roll center below the
ground. I believe it was a Buick Reatta. I'll have to go check my old
work files.....

jeff armfield
cr00jsa@ctccummins.cummins.com

 
 




----------
Posted by: emory!ctccummins.cummins.com!cr00jsa (J S Armfield)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Aug 14 15:11:02 1992
Subject: Re: Re:  Torque Arms for differentials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I agree. HP offers some excellent books.  Personally I own most of their
books and use them all the time.  SA DESIGN I believe is the competing 
performance series publisher and they also have som good titles.
Mike
Brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 15:24:04 1992
Subject: Head Porting Tools
To: hotrod@dixie.com

                          SUBJECT:  Head Porting Tools
Well, I'm about to embark on a head porting/polishing project with my GN heads.
 I think I have most everything I need but would appreciate some advice on bits
for my air powered die grinder.

I plan on using carbide bits ... what bit shapes should I look for?  I assume a
couple long shaft bits will be desirable?  Do I need the bits with the grinding
stones (my experience has been they wear down VERY quickly).

I am using the Buick Power Source book templates for the production heads.  Is
there anything else I should know or be aware of?  Any suggestions are welcome!

-- Ken Mosher
-- Buick Grand National:  A *BOOST* of Buick Performance

----------
Posted by: "KEN MOSHER" 
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Aug 14 15:25:05 1992
Subject: Re: Stand-alone pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com

At minimum wage, on nearly every street corner.  Exactly the reason in 
my view that sometimes it is worth that extra buck to deal with a "real"
full service auto parts store where guys know the program.  Sounds like
Super Shops or Chiefs! Mike Brattland
Brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Aug 14 15:34:11 1992
Subject: Remove me please
To: hotrod@dixie.com


   Unfortunately, I am losing access to this account.
  Please remove me (jkurien@rdrc.rpi.edu) from
  the hotrod mailing list.

  Thanks,
   Jim Kurien

----------
Posted by: emory!rdrc.rpi.edu!jkurien (James Kurien)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 15:50:24 1992
Subject: measuring power/performance
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Howdy all

awhile back there was a post on a cheap dyno substitute.  I want to increase
my performance (lower quarter ET) in my 69 charger (440 with 727 a
uto, 3.55
gears).  I realize that i don't know squat about the engine hp and torquecurve.  From listing to some of the threads here, the first step to
improving performace is to know what you have BEFORE you start trying

i currently use the "make a change/make a run" method of testing performance
increases/decreases. I have done most of the easy performance increase
stuff (big carb (went from a 600 cfm holly to a 800 cfm Thermoquad), added
a Jacobs Igniton box, Bosh platinum plugs, tried traction bars but they
didn't help!, tuned the engine, played with the timing, ect)

I would like to get the hp and torque curves for the engine as inexpensivly
as possible, without pulling the engine.  Is there a good way to do this?

I am starting to get into the higher $ stuff and have a limited budget and
want to get the most bang for my buck... any and all advice is welcome.

Thanx in advance!!

-Jeff (a 69 R/T Charger dude)

ps i am thinking about purchasing a 60-64 corvair body and putting a V-8
   in the back seat...i know there used to be kits for this, does anyone
   still make these??  or i may just hop up the flat 6 corvair motor..does
   anyone know how much hp you can get out of this type engine??

----------
Posted by: emory!TRITON.TAMU.EDU!JJP8508
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 16:10:44 1992
Subject: I want an Edlebrock Performer manifold for 455 Olds
To: hotrod@dixie.com

If anyone has a used one, or knows where I can get one cheaply, I would
like to hear about it. I need it to pass the CA 'smog test'.
-------

----------
Posted by: Jeff Deifik 
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Aug 14 16:15:49 1992
Subject: Re: Books...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>Here are some other additions to the suspension book list:
>
>1. "Tune to Win" - Carroll Smith 

Carrol has a whole line of "xxx to Win" books.  All are excellent.  
Highly recommended.  You may have noticed a very expensive product on
the market, "Racing By The Numbers" by Mitchell Software.  This software
package implements Carrol's design methodologies.  If the package sold
for $99, I'd give it rave reviews.  At $499, it's a rip.  Get the book
and a good spreadsheet and go to work.

This month's Stock Car Racing has an excellent article on torque arm
rear suspensions.  

SAE has a new suspension textbook out.  I cannot lay my hands on the 
flyer at the moment but it's a new book and should be familiar with
SAE money-takers :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Aug 14 16:27:18 1992
Subject: Re:  flow bench
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> How much flow do you get out of, say, a furnace blower (The big centrifugal
>ones that feed about a square foot cross-section plenum)? These guys have a
>huge squirrel cage and a large AC motor. I'm sure they move more air than a
>"normal" engine would take, though I'm not sure about the pressure. But then,
>at least for normally aspirated engines, the whole point is to have minimal
>pressure drop...

The issue is not so much flow but the capability of developing a pressure -
or vacuum - head.  HVAC blowers are high volume, low pressure (low
pressure typically meaning <10" water) units.  To be effective on a flow
bench, that is to say, to be able to develop a large enough signal to
be meaningful, the blower must be able to develop several inches of 
mercury vacuum head.  A furnace blower cannot be significantly
overdriven because turbulent loss rapidly increases with speed, the 
power requirement goes up with the square of velocity and the blower
typically cannot handle the added power.  

High pressure fans are available and not surprisingly, they look just like
large turbochargers with a well defined scroll diffuser and a relatively
small rotor.  You won't find one of these in any HVAC application.  
you'd never stand the noise.  They are quite frequently found in 
industrial settings (From my time at M&M Mars, those little chocolate
peaks and waves on Snickers, Mars, Three Musketeers and other such
products are intentionally blown up using high speed blowers.  Customer
preference.) and thus are frequently available surplus.

Vacuum cleaner fans are the cheapest alternative I know of.  You trade
longevity and noise for low cost and compact packaging.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From rsiatl!hotrod Fri Aug 14 16:36:17 1992
Subject: Re: Re: Re:  buick 215 v8
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I only made the recommendation based on the thought of using the existing
drivetrain, i.e. 914 transaxle with a V-8 or V-6 and the necessity to 
somehow come up with adapters and a lot of custom parts.  However since
this thread started, unknown to me, information has been shared that
infact someone is already making swap kits adapters for just such a 
swap which makes this whole discussion OBE.  However if somone wasn't
already commercially offering swap kits then it becomes a rather
expensive venture if you are doing it on yourown.  However if you are
just canning the existing drivetrain and installing a conventional 
big block with the turbo 400 and whatever rear end under the body,
I would agree it is no big deal and certainly cheaper.  Back in 
86 at MIR in Southern Maryland I saw a very nice 944 sporting a injected
smallblock in the Super Gas Classes.  The body can't get much slicker.
It ran real good as I remember.
Mike Brattland
Brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil

----------
Posted by: emory!nprdc.navy.mil!brattlan (CDR Michael Brattland)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 16:49:14 1992
Subject: Upcoming Event
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I'll be at the GOODGUYS "West Coast Nationals" next week
(August 21 to 23) in Pleasanton, CA
Last year there were over 3000 beautiful cars to scope out - this
year the age was moved up to pre'52 so there should be some
_great sleds_ out there too
plus over 200 vendors and manufacturer's reps, etc to talk to
ands ask questions of
plus the west coast giveaway car and the west cost peddle cars
will be awarded
plus bands like Vince Vance and the Valienettes
plus, this is a big _plus_ almost everyone that's anyone in
street/hot rods & customs like Norm Grabowski, Bill Burnham,
Andy Brizio, Sam Foose (maybe Chip'll be back from his honeymoon
long enough to stop by, Bob McCoy, Cory Harder (great artists),
Grey Baskerville, too-tall Pat Ganahl, Dave Hill and many more to
rub shoulders with... can hardly wait for the kick-off party!!!

maybe I'll see ya there - I'll be there with my
33 roadster (terra cotta w/ off-white carson top and interior)

----------
Posted by: emory!iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com!sharen (Sharen A. Rund)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 17:23:35 1992
Subject: Re:  measuring power/performance
To: hotrod@dixie.com

[ Jeff writes in part ]

>i currently use the "make a change/make a run" method of testing performance
>increases/decreases. I have done most of the easy performance increase
>stuff (big carb (went from a 600 cfm holly to a 800 cfm Thermoquad), added
>a Jacobs Igniton box, Bosh platinum plugs, tried traction bars but they
>didn't help!, tuned the engine, played with the timing, ect)

I got the distinct impression from Jacobs that platinum plugs where NOT
recommended with his ignition systems Jeff.

Dr. Jacobs also has a great "do-it-yourself" dyno system described in his
ignition book that sounds quite interesting.  Do you have a copy of his
book?

Phil - '31 Model A Hotrod
       '64 F.I. Corvette

----------
Posted by: emory!mgweed.att.com!prg
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 17:28:55 1992
Subject: Re: Head Porting Tools
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Well, I'm about to embark on a head porting/polishing project with my GN heads.
> I think I have most everything I need but would appreciate some advice on bits
>for my air powered die grinder.
>
>I plan on using carbide bits ... what bit shapes should I look for?  I assume a
>couple long shaft bits will be desirable?  Do I need the bits with the grinding
>stones (my experience has been they wear down VERY quickly).

I have several tulip shapes, a couple of sizes of cylindricals, a couple of 
cones and a variety of rounds.  I also have a large, thin disk cutter that
is rare as hen's teeth but is invaluable for doing two stroke transfer
ports.

I'd not spend too much money on extended shank burrs.  They are seldom
truely concentric and are very easy to bend.  Very expensive too.  I have
one long shank ball that I use only occasionally.  You'll be much happier
with an extended collet die grinder.

A couple of other tips.  For polishing, get some 1/4" drill rod and carefully
slit the end with a dremel cutoff wheel or similar.  Emory cloth can 
then be inserted in the groove and wrapped around the drill rod.  It forms
a very efficient "flapper" that cleans itself by wearing off.  Use drill
rod because that is about the most straight and true material you can get.
Use your fingers to keep the emory cloth tight on the rod.  I start the
grinder spinning with my fingers loosly around the cloth and then push 
the end through my fingertips into the port.  Unless your fingertips are
scarred and semi-numb like mine, you might want to wear a thin leather
glove on your off-hand.

Run the grinder as fast as you can when using carbide burrs.  something
the dentists figured out a long time ago - the faster the burr, the less
the vibration and the smoother the cut.  I run my shop air at 175-200 psi.
My strob-o-tach says my 30,000 RPM is turning close to 60,000 RPM.
Does it shorten the life?  Dunno.  I bought my Black & Decker industrial
die grinder in 1970.  I put a spindle bearing in it last year because the
fumes from the fire rusted it.  Vanes and rear bearing look great.

Sooper Secret (TM), something I'd not tell just anyone. :-)  the key to 
a fine finish and a long and harmonious burr life (some of mine were bought
along with the grinder) is to continuously mist-cool the burr with 
an appropriate cutting fluid.  I apply it with a device called "Nu-mist".
This is a small plastic can with an aluminum manifold on top and a small
hose ending in a nozzle.  The hose is concentric.  One side carries low
pressure air and the other the cooling fluid.  Mine came from
Grangers and had a stock number of 4Z562.  don't know if it is currently
available or not.  the nozzle is small enough that it can either be taped 
to the grinder or held nearby with an umbilical dial indicator stand.

The other  half of the secret is cutting fluid.  For ferrous metal, absolutely
nothing is better than 1,1,1 trichloroethane.  It gets involved chemically
in the cutting process, though I don't know the details.  Obviously good
ventillation is needed.  For aluminum, ordinary antifreeze mixed just like
for your radiator is the best.  Use these on taps and dies too.  If you've
ever bought that high priced Tap-matic tapping fluid, these two substances
are what you are really buying.

Finally, if you chip or dull a burr, don't throw it away.  It can be 
electrochemically resharpened for a nominal charge - usually around $8.
Your machine tool supplier should be able to point you in the right 
direction. Zieglers here in Atl advertises resharpening services.

John


----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 17:37:03 1992
Subject: Re: measuring power/performance
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>awhile back there was a post on a cheap dyno substitute.  I want to increase
>my performance (lower quarter ET) in my 69 charger (440 with 727 a
>uto, 3.55
>gears).  I realize that i don't know squat about the engine hp and torquecurve.  From listing to some of the threads here, the first step to
>improving performace is to know what you have BEFORE you start trying
>
>i currently use the "make a change/make a run" method of testing performance
>increases/decreases. I have done most of the easy performance increase
>stuff (big carb (went from a 600 cfm holly to a 800 cfm Thermoquad), added
>a Jacobs Igniton box, Bosh platinum plugs, tried traction bars but they
>didn't help!, tuned the engine, played with the timing, ect)
>
>I would like to get the hp and torque curves for the engine as inexpensivly
>as possible, without pulling the engine.  Is there a good way to do this?
>
>I am starting to get into the higher $ stuff and have a limited budget and
>want to get the most bang for my buck... any and all advice is welcome.
>

One method is the so-called "coast-down" method which involves accelerating
the car between two speed points, timing the interval and then timing
the interval for the car to freewheel coast back through the points.
A little quick math computes the average horsepower over that range.  
The coastdown neatly cancels out a whole bunch of complicating factors
such as grade.  See Hugh Macinnes' "Turbochargers" book for the details.

You really want more detail than this provides in that you want to see 
the torque curve at all points along the track.  One expensive way is
to get a G-analyist or RacePack with the accelerometer option and record
your run.  Neglecting air resistance, torque and acceleration are directly
related and proportional.  Of course, you could wait until the mag does
the build-it-yourself data acqisition system article. :-)

Another method is to fit an encoder wheel to the speedo cable (if you have
one) or to the driveshaft (if you don't) and record the pulserate.  A
very easy way is to bring the pulses to the ACK* pin of the PC parallel
port, write some software to timestamp each interrupt generated and 
compute acceleration at each instance from the change in rate.  A fairly
simple Excell (or *gag* lotus) spreadsheet can do this and plot the
graphs.

Another method, my favorite, and the subject of a future magazine article,
is to use a radar to do the same thing.  The easiest method, and one I've
used for years, is to take the doppler output frequency, pipe it to a
national semi frequency-to-voltage converter (LM39somethingoranother)
and use the voltage to drive a surplus stripchart recorder.  The radar
can sit at one end of the track and cover the entire length.  The chart
output is a trace of speed but acceleration can be computed manually
by differentiating the chart at a point of interest.

Even better is to pipe the doppler into a PC and do the analysis as with
the speedo encoder.  K-band doppler is too high a frequency to stick it in
on the ACK* pin but X band will work fine.  

If you can't get your hands on a surplus radar gun (check out any hamfest),
get a hobby electronics or ham radio magazine and contact Advanced Receiver
Research.  They sell the GunnPlexer for about $150. This is basically the
RF section of a radar gun and is small enough to fit inside a Cambell's
soup can.

Sorry I can't point you more specifically but I'm doing this kinda on the
fly.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Aug 14 18:36:19 1992
Subject: TEST (please disregard)
To: hotrod@dixie.com

DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)

----------
Posted by: emory!wrs.com!johnson (David Johnson)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 02:56:35 1992
Subject: Re: 510 SUSPENSE(sion)
To: hotrod@dixie.com


> > What I'm trying to do is put the brakes off of a '79 280zx onto
> > my '71 510. The front (at least for now) seems relatively easy. 
> > The front struts will bolt onto the lower steering knuckles and the
> > pipe cutter will take off that mongo spring perch and make slipping on 
> > the adjustable spring perches a snap.  The rear however have me
> > perplexed. The rear trailing arms from the 280zx (by my crude calc's
> > and juditious amout of eye-balling) are the same dim's as the 510's
> > except that they don't have the spring cup cutting through them.
> > 
> > Question is (in 5 parts):
> > 
> > Can I put the whole trailing arm from the 280zx on the 510?
> > And if so, how tough do you think it would be to put coil-overs
> > on the rear? Would the shock mount area have to be cut out to enlarge it
> > for the 2-1/2 inch coil-overs? Or should I just put the disks from
> > the 280zx on the 510 TA's and weld on some caliper mounts? That would be
> > easier, but i wanted the ease of height adjustment with the coil-overs,
> > and also the availability of different spring rates.

	I have done the same eyeballing many times.  I suspect the trailing
arms will fit.  I have seen coil overs on the rear of a 510 before.  They
were made by Carrera (?).  THere were no modifications made to the shock
towers, though I would reccomend reinforcing the stock spot welds with some
real welds in that area.
	Now the frustrating part.  A friend who is in the process of
restoring/building a 510 has located a company that makes a bracket for
mounting ZX calipers on 510 trailing arms, everything else bolts on.  The
frustrating part is that I can;t remember the name of the company, and said
friend is out of town for several weeks, and I am leaving town before he
returns.  Since this is also info I would like to know for my next 510
project (I will have one!) I will do my best to find out what it is.  Keep
an eye on the Z car list for a posting in about a month (sorry for the
delay).

	-Dave

----------
Posted by: Datsun Dave Coleman 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 03:18:22 1992
Subject: Chrysler headers for sale
To: hotrod@dixie.com

[posted for a total stranger who heard of this list :-)  ]

Black Hijackers headers for the Chrysler 318 for sale.  never used.
$25.00.  

Talbert Strickland
404 723 0269

In the Atlanta Area
--------------------------------------------------------

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 11:24:47 1992
Subject: Re: 510 SUSPENSE(sion)
To: hotrod@dixie.com

	
		I have done the same eyeballing many times.  I suspect the trailing
	arms will fit.  I have seen coil overs on the rear of a 510 before.  They
	were made by Carrera (?).  THere were no modifications made to the shock
	towers, though I would reccomend reinforcing the stock spot welds with some
	real welds in that area.
		Now the frustrating part.  A friend who is in the process of
	restoring/building a 510 has located a company that makes a bracket for
	mounting ZX calipers on 510 trailing arms, everything else bolts on.  The
	frustrating part is that I can;t remember the name of the company, and said
	friend is out of town for several weeks, and I am leaving town before he
	returns.  Since this is also info I would like to know for my next 510
	project (I will have one!) I will do my best to find out what it is.  Keep
	an eye on the Z car list for a posting in about a month (sorry for the
	delay).
	
		-Dave
	
	----------
	Posted by: Datsun Dave Coleman 
	 
	
	
	

I have a set of zx brakes on the rear of my z.  I assume that the bracket will
fit a 510??  I would love to sell the whole set, because I'm building a
4-piston set of rear brakes for the car.  The bracket is a nice cast piece.
The calipers and rotors are also in good shape.  I have adapted the z handbrake
to the zx calipers, but I dont know what a 510 handbrake is like (probably
the same?).  Does $200 suond reasonable for this stuff?
thanks 
Brandon Dixon

----------
Posted by: Brandon Dixon 
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 12:38:25 1992
Subject: Re:  Head Porting Tools
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Ken, I purchased , from the Snap-On tools man, a carbide cutter that you should
find very usefull. It was a long shank tear-drop shaped piece. The shank was
about 2.25" and the cutter is 1.5" long and .250 round on the tip tapering up
to .5" at the base with fluted cutting surface overall. cost me about $40.00
bucks 6 yrs. ago. I don't think the price has gone up significantly in the
interim.
I have used this cutter for 8 sets of heads now and it cuts every curve and line
perfectly.
***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt            met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto 
1953 3/4 ton Chevy pickumup truck

Not running... yet:
1965 "A" code Mustang
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 12:53:34 1992
Subject: Re: Stand-alone pumps
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Hmmmm, surprises me a bit that you have had these problems with Auto Zone.
The ONE in town here is run by an old stock car racer who employes only 
competent counter help and pretty girls at the registers. Assuredly he
has erred in a few cases, kids who could talk better than do, but they
quickly were replaced. The big chains, NAPA, seem intent upon hiring
only people with an attitude problem. Every NAPA I have been in has these
counter "helpers" that care only about the 'regular' customers. Anyone
else is just there to be made fun of and jerked around and charged exorbitant
prices.
Yeah, I worked at one for about a year and left for basically this reason,
so I do know what I am talking about.
Now I do as much of my automotive purchasing by mail and when I go to the
store I usually have the part numbers ready for them.


***************************************************************
Millam E. Tackitt            met@naucse.cse.nau.edu

1967 Cougar XR-7 271/289 4spd/CR 4spd
1968 Galaxie XL-GT 345/390 Auto 
1953 3/4 ton Chevy pickumup truck

Not running... yet:
1965 "A" code Mustang
***************************************************************

----------
Posted by: emory!naucse.cse.nau.edu!met (Millam Tackitt)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 17:48:30 1992
Subject: Axle hop, monoleafs, and slapper bars
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I'm in the planning stages for what I'm going to do with my 67 Camaro,
and I'm looking for some advice on what to do about the rear suspension.
I let the clutch out a little quick the other day and found this car
has the worst axle hop I've ever experienced (and I thought my Jeep was bad
...).  The rear is the original 1967 open 10-bolt with mono leaf springs.
I'm sure new shocks would help some, but my main question is am I going
to be able to get rid of wheel hop without major welding (if I had the time
and the place, and the money, I'd go for a 12-bolt or 9" and build a 4-link
with a Watts link.  But until that day I was wondering if a good set of
slapper bars (J-bolts, correct length--yes, I read this months car craft)
will do me any good, or would I just be wasting my time and money?


-- 
Jon Lusky
lusky@gnu.ai.mit.edu

 79 Rx-7 12A/Holley 4bbl
 67 Camaro/350/4spd (under construction)
 89 Jeep Wrangler/258 (currently self destructing)

----------
Posted by: emory!gnu.ai.mit.edu!lusky
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 20:46:49 1992
Subject: Re: flow bench
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Second option.  vacuum cleaner fans.  Grangers sells 1 hp replacement
-> capsules for about $60.  Two or three of these things mounted on a

 My Grainger's catalog either walked off or is buried; I was flipping
through McMaster-Carr, but couldn't come up with anything likely.
A flow bench ought to be *easy* to make - I bet I could do it under $50,
manometers and all - except for the darned blowers.


-> Dave, I'm planning a flowbench article for the magazine.  If you beat
-> me to building a unit, you can write the article :-)

 Maybe we can get a REAL long hose and run it to Atlanta?  
                                                                                                     

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 20:51:50 1992
Subject: Re: Re: Re:  buick 215 v8
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> swap which makes this whole discussion OBE.  However if somone wasn't
-> already commercially offering swap kits then it becomes a rather

 Naw.  Engine swapping doesn't have to be hard, as long as:

        A)  the engine will fit into the hole
    or  B)  you're willing to cut to make it fit

 Once that's settled, you can decide what do do about transmission,
exhaust, suspension, etc.

 You'd be surprised what you can do, given a little thought before you
get wild.  I once put a 400 Chevy into a Triumph Spitfire; it came out
very nice.  I also once put a 302 in a '68 Ford pickup that originally
had a six.  It was The Swap From Hell, and I hope I never get involved
in anything as weird again.
                                                                                                                   

----------
Posted by: emory!chaos.lrk.ar.us!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Aug 15 20:57:59 1992
Subject: Head Porting Tools
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> I think I have most everything I need but would appreciate some
-> advice on bits for my air powered die grinder.

 I've never ported a head with a for real die grinder, just a Moto-Tool.
The little pear-shaped carbide cutters seem to work well for those.