From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 01:41:39 1992
Subject: RE: BUSHINGS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> IMHO unless you strictly race the car, go with the poly. The aluminum
-> will be a much harsher feel, and constant maintenance (plus the wear
-> factor...)

 Actually, I'm running both aluminum and steel bushings in my Capri.
There's a little more road noise, but I couldn't tell any difference in
ride between the metal and the rubber.  YMMV.
               

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@CHAOS.LRK.AR.US (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 01:42:14 1992
Subject: XX
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> You don't understand. :-) I design custom engine management systems.
-> I consult to people with fuel injection design problems.
->
-> Then what are you asking *US* for?   
-> The problem I have is that I don't know American cars well enough to
-> go shopping at the Junque yard.  So I have lots of questions.
->
-> Well, we'll let it slide this time...
->   So I have lots of questions.  What's a good GM model/year for a
-> good TPI engine and tranny?  I want to buy them as a set.
->
-> Okay.  GM has DOZENS of variations on their ECU and TPI systems. I'm
-> most familiar with the '90-'91 Corvette units since a friend of mine
-> will be adding a B&M supercharger soon and we wanted to retain the
-> stock injection.
->
-> The Corvette uses a batch injection system, broken down into left and
-> right banks.  It's a speed-density job with the box holding a lot (I
-> think 128) different maps, plus self-programming "block learn" to
-> correct for age, etc.  It runs in closed loop mode with an oxygen
-> sensor.  At wide-open throttle the system goes into open loop mode,
-> with the box setting it to the rich side of stochiometric and
-> slamming the advance curve all the way forward, using the knock
-> sensor to keep the engine from killing itself.
->
-> The 'vette closes off all vacuum ports, turns off the air
-> conditioning, turns off EGR, and turns the alternator off when under
-> full throttle.
-> The Corvette service manual has about 75% of what you need to know,
-> and I can give you Jay's phone number for the rest.  GM doesn't
-> really have a tech ref for the TPI per se.
->
-> It's a very clean system, and I've been unable to think of much that
-> would improve it.  Going to timed and metered instead of batch maybe,
-> or playing with the manifolding, but I don't think there's any one
-> spot you can point to and say "this stinks."
->
-> Of course, since you want to build (presumably prototype to sell)
-> your own ECU, I wouldn't worry about a stock injection/engine
-> management unit.  Mount your injectors on a conventional 4-barrel
-> intake manifold and you can bolt on either your carb or throttle
-> body, depending on whether you're testing or building.    When
-> you're done, buy a tunnel ram intake and use a very short throttle
-> body; the Edelbrock tunnel ram will fit under the hood of an ElCo,
-> but the carbs stick through a couple of inches.  With no carbs...
                                                                                                              

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@CHAOS.LRK.AR.US (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 14:37:29 1992
Subject: Re: Octane boosters
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 92 19:00 EST
> Subject: Octane boosters
> 
> >What about these "Octane Booster" products that are supposed to enhance
> >the octance rating of the fuel?
> 
> Here's my suggestion...  Experiment with your engine until you 
> discover the minimum amount of booster necessary to supress knock.

Has anybody out there had any experience using a top-oiler (e.g.,
Ampco) to spray booster directly into the intake?  Determining the
proper setting could take an afternoon, rather than several tanks of
gas, although it certainly wouldn't be as consistent as pre-mixing.

However, if the top-oiler operates off of venturi vacuum, more octane
booster will be injected at WOT (where it's needed) than at idle (where
it's not needed as much).  The challenge is getting the mix right at
both ends; getting enough booster at WOT is great, but not if it pings
like crazy when idling...
____________________________________________________________________________
          _______________
        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |			Dan Harling
   0  / /_________________\ \| 0		(harling@pictel.com)
    ---------------------------
  / /======|=D=O=D=G=E=|======\ \		Opinions are not necessarily
  \_____________________________/		those of PictureTel, but
  \    _______       _______    /		they should be.
  |\ _/|__|__|\_____/|__|__|\_ /|		
  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |		'70 Dodge Challenger
  |______|               |______|		340 4-bbl.

----------
Posted by: harling@roadrunner.pictel.com (Dan Harling)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 14:39:09 1992
Subject: Re: Hot Starts 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Use extra heavy gauge batt cables. 1 ga at least. Use a good high
amperage battery. If it's a GM car, you can get a high temp solenoid.
You can also get a custom wound starter or maybe the parts books list
a heavy duty rebuilt.
These problems can be a real pain! Also make sure your ground connections
are all good.
RON

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 15:02:17 1992
Subject: Re: Octane boosters
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> I've spent a whole lot of time and a moderate amount of money trying
> to build a simple non-gated analyzer.  I finally built up a data
> acquisition system, digitized the output of the sensor and did a 
> fast fourier transform analysis on the data.  I was hopeing I could
> find some characteristic that distinguishes engine noise from knock.
> No luck.  The only way to make this reliably work is to gate the 
> monitoring circuit with ignition.  All the literature I've read says
> the same thing.

In the engine lab at MIT we used a piezoelectric pressure sensor in the
cylinder head near the spark plug - the output went to a very regular
kind of analog scope triggered by the ignition pulse. This had the added
advantage of allowing us to set the timing via the scope output - it is
VERY obvious when you have too much advance for a given load, so we just
twisted in advance until we got that characteristic vertical line in the
pressure profile, then backed it off until the line just barely smoothed out.
This was made much easier by the fact that the engine was mounted on a dyno,
and we could dial in any rpm and load we wanted - to do this in a car
that isn't on a chassis dyno, you'd have a bit more trouble since it's hard
to tweak the timing while driving up a hill... plus I guess you'd have to
check all the cylinders individually. Still, I can't think of a more precise
way to get a spark advance curve right.


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@hpwarq.hp.com

----------
Posted by: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 15:12:42 1992
Subject: Re: ENGINE RECOMMENDATION 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

->                                                      If you're targeting
->the performance aftermarket then you might look more at this route and at
->selling complete setups (for bigger bux$). You could even sell dual
->throttle bodies (for folks who just simply have to have it)...

->Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)

	I would like to have a twin TBI setup but probably couldn't
afford buying a complete one. :-(  I think chasing the parts myself
wouldn't be as painful.

	Turbo City in Orange, California has a test truck with dual TBIs.
The two GM throttle bodies are mounted on an Offenhauser dual quad manifold,
although, an Edelbrock Vintage Series C-26 manifold could also be used.
One inch spacer plates adapt and center the TBIs and two nitrous-oxide
throttle plates give the engine an extra kick. Turbo City programmed a new
chip to divide fuel delivery between both TBIs so that a new fuel pump
wasn't needed.  Turbo City also added headers and 1.6:1 ratio rocker arms
to the otherwise stock 350.

	Unfortunately, the company only plans to use it as a testbed
and will not market it.

	Any ideas?  A little more show and go would be nice. :-)

Thanks,
Wes


----------
Posted by: Wes 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 15:26:49 1992
Subject: Hot Starting
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>>
>>I am having a hot-start problem.  Does anyone have any experience 
>>killing a hot start problem?  ( it is not a fuel vaporization 
>>problem, but a struggle-to-turn-the-engine problem).  Some
>>suggestions so far have been 
>
>>2) wrap the exhaust system
>>3) starter heat-sheild
>>
>>Any other suggestions? I dont *think* its the starter, more like 
>>an engine that tightens up... 
>
>This problem is almost always too much static advance.  Back the timing
>off even a degree or two and the problem will likely go away.  To 

I think your on the right track with the heat approach, although John's comment
about static advance may also be the problem. You don't mention whether the
car is GM with starter mounted solenoid, but based on the problem I'll assume
it is. My brothers '71 442 (455 olds) traditionally had this problem. When
he installed a new 455 with higher compression, the problem got even worse.
The solution was buying a remote solenoid kit from summit. Now it cranks
the same speed at all times. This was  a case of doing something, and then
realizing you should have done it years ago. The remote solenoid kit is
only like 30 bucks .

						Greg

----------
Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 15:29:16 1992
Subject: Ford 8" Rear
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>  carrier that looks on the outside like a 9-inch rear to my
>  beginner eyes.  When I took it apart I found the ring gear
>  measured a little less than 8 inches (not 9).  I would like to
>  change the ratio to 3.5:1 (currently 2.8:1) and use a 9 inch
>  
>                          Roger Burnett
>                          rab2f@fulton.seas.virginia.edu

>A few years ago, I was in a similar dilemma - I have a Pinto with a 302,
>and put in an 8" rear end from a 75 Mustang II to handle the extra power.
>When I put the Nash 5 speed in, I bought an 8" carrier with Traction-Lok
>(Fords version of Posi-Traction) and a 2.80 gear from Currie Enterprises 
>(they advertise in the back of HRM).  At the time, they said the 8" should 
>be able to handle 400HP easy, and even up to 5-600 HP, if you don't abuse
>it too much. 
>
>----------
>Posted by: derekd@apd.MENTORG.COM (Derek Deeter)

Ok, its story time. A friend of mine also had this Ford rear dilmma. He had
a '67 Cougar with a basic 289 and a Doug Nash 5 sp. Anyway, for the same
reason, dollars he stayed with the 8 inch. This was a disaster. The car had
a tendancy to axle hop on occasion, and I beleive this led to the demise
of maybe 3 sets of spider gears. By far the best failure he had was when
he sheared the pinion shaft on a launch and threw the drive shaft. I wouldn't
beleive it if I didn't see it. (We got a big kick out of the Daytona 500 last
year when Mark Martin broke. They were in the pits, showing a sheared pinion
shaft with a crew member talking about how that isn't supposed to happen.)
I think the 8" should be run with caution.

						Greg

----------
Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 16:28:44 1992
Subject: RE: Hot Starts
To: hotrod@dixie.com


    Well, no one mentioned what kind of car/truck this problem was on.  
Since GM is well known for "hot soak" of the starter, I's suggest a 
heat sheild if it's a GM.  You can buy the fancy chrome one for less
than 20 bucks, or just make your own. 
    If it's a ford, it's probably the starter, since the relay is (at least
on about 90% of 'em) on the firewall, it's mostlikey not the culprit.
I've yet to hear of a chrylser/dodge with a hot soak starter problem, 
although I'm sure there are......

  l8ta 

   ----> bob

----------
Posted by: ""Robert A. Valentine"" 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 16:37:14 1992
Subject: Re: Hot Starts
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>I am out of ideas...

I'd still like to know two things Derek, can you measure the battery
voltage while the engine is cranking -- both cold and hot?  And can
you measure the voltage difference between the block of the engine
and the negative side of the battery?  I still think it's an electrical
problem.

>Thanks for the help---
>
>		Derek Cunningham
>

Phil - prg@mgweed.att.com

----------
Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  1 16:44:44 1992
Subject: Re: Hot Starts 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I dont recall seeing if the car in question had headers (helps cook the 
starter real good!) But, if so, Moroso makes a heat sheild that helps 
isolate the starter from header heat.
derekp

----------
Posted by: derekp@gvls1.GVL.Unisys.COM (Derek J. Pietro)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 00:48:23 1992
Subject: Re: Hot Starts
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>> This problem is almost always too much static advance.  Back the timing
>> off even a degree or two and the problem will likely go away.  

>Well, this (unfortunately) was NOT the  problem.  Curious thing
>here...  I had NO hot start problem until I changed the timing and
>ONLY the timing.  I put lighter springs in out HEI distrubutor, and
>adjusted the adjustable vac. advance to its lightest amount.  

Uh, that is what I'm talking about.  How much advance you have dialed
in with the engine stopped is the static advance.

>I am stumped.  would changing the timing really cause that much of a
>problem?  the change was a matter of 4 degrees or so.  I am going to
>try changing it back and see if the problem continues. 

Yes.  What  happens is the spark ignites the mix while the piston is
still coming up but the engine is not turning fast enough for
inertia to force it through TDC.  Thus the starter stalls until
the pressure bleeds off enough to let the crank go over TDC.
Then the next cylinder does the same thing.  The result is the 
starter goes Rrr....Rrr......Rrr......R and nothing happens.

It COULD be a hot starter problem.  I don't want to completely discount
it.  Or it could be a combination of the two.  But you've probably described 
the cause exactly when you noted that you'd increased the static advance.  

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 01:52:32 1992
Subject: Hot start clarification
To: hotrod@dixie.com

It is NOT too much advance (that has been several times)...
We did install a switch to disable the ignition during cranking.
Even with the ignition disabled, it is still hard to turn.
It has to be either the engine or the starter motor or 
electrical connections... 
Thanks for all the help so far!
-Bob

----------
Posted by: ghost of Bob Cunningham 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 02:51:18 1992
Subject: Re: Auto Trans.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I have to be more than a little bit suspicious about an article that
says you lose 60 HP in a T400.  I have a Suburban (5000 lbs) with a
T400 and it only demands 60 HP from the engine to cruise at 60 MPH.
If the trans needed all 60 HP then where I am I getting all the free
power to push it through the air?

I know someone who is heavily into automatics, mostly for RV applications.
He estimates that the losses through a T400 are about 3 HP for the pump
plus some for the torque converter.

An old article in one of the hotrod build-it books says that they
chassis dynoed a car with a manual trans and later with an automatic
and found less than 5 HP difference in power.

Another thing to consider is heat - if the trans really did burn 60 HP
then that is about 45 KW of heat to get rid of - where could it go?
A bathroom heater puts out about 1.5 KW of heat so the alleged tranny
losses are 30 bathroom heater's worth.  Not credible.

Some of the writers for the car mags don't show evidence of understanding
simple, basic physics and engineering principles.  Take their writings
with a grain of salt.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: btree!hale@ucsd.edu (Bob Hale)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 02:59:11 1992
Subject: Re: Auto Trans.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>I have to be more than a little bit suspicious about an article that
>says you lose 60 HP in a T400.  

You're not the only one.

>An old article in one of the hotrod build-it books says that they
>chassis dynoed a car with a manual trans and later with an automatic
>and found less than 5 HP difference in power.

I'd believe that.

>Another thing to consider is heat - if the trans really did burn 60 HP
>then that is about 45 KW of heat to get rid of - where could it go?
>A bathroom heater puts out about 1.5 KW of heat so the alleged tranny
>losses are 30 bathroom heater's worth.  Not credible.

Further, if I converterd the numbers from my reference correctly,
gasoline makes about 24.6 kw-hr per lb.  In other words, we'd
be burning about 2 lbs per hour just to heat the transmission.
Not very credible at all.

>Some of the writers for the car mags don't show evidence of understanding
>simple, basic physics and engineering principles.  Take their writings
>with a grain of salt.

Glad to see I'm not the only one to notice that.  Another one I get
a real kick out of is the claim that an alternator consumes 5 or 
10 or 20 or you-name-it horsepower.  Anyone ever seen a 5 hp continuous
duty motor?  Wonder how many alternators would fit inside one?
Some hard data.  I have a prototype of a nifty little 11 lb cordless
battery charger here that will become a product someday.  This thing
consists of a 2 hp weed whacker engine, an alternator and some
custom controls.  I designed this thing for drag racers and others
who need to rapidly charge a battery away from electrical outlets.
This thing generates 60 amps (alternator's limit, not engine's).
The alternator is directly driven at the two stroke's 5800 rpm peak
power point.

Then there's windage loss.  Some claim that one has to pop the 
alternator belt off before running at the strip.   Turning the
field off is not enough.  Supposed to save, well, billions and billions 
of horsepower.   I've looked at this from two angles.  One, I've 
instrumented the govenor on the engine and two, I've measured
fuel consumption.  Neither show any difference to the resolution of my
instruments with or without the freewheeling alternator connected.
'Nuff said.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 04:52:36 1992
Subject: Re: TPI thread, etc.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I'm interested in auto electronics, like engine management systems, etc.
>I'm not out to start a business or sell anything, I just want to learn
>more about how things are done.  I will graduate at the end of May with
>a BSEE degree from Bucknell, so the electronics part won't be the limiting
>factor.
>
>My question is where to start?  I can't afford to buy systems to cut up, and my
>new 5.0 'Stang has to keep running 8^)
>What references on the subject exist?

You can get a lot of good book learning that is invaluable but there's
not much way you're going to really know what you're doing until
you actaully get some grease under your fingernails.  And you're not
going to really understand the limits until you break a few things.
I present as Exhibit 1, my piston collection (points to dozens of pistons
and pieces of pistons :-)

First thing you need to do is join the SAE and be prepared to spend a
kilobuck or so on literature.  Or if your school library is an SAE 
repository, burn any funny-money you might have on the xerox machine.
You need to get the annual publication "Sensors & Actuactors" as far
back as you can.  Then you need to get all the SAE specifications that
apply to engine management.  Finally, buy a copy of the SAE handbook.
A couple of other books are the Bosch Automotive Handbook and the 
Bosch Automotive Electronics handbook.

Then there's the Michell's "Electronic Fuel Injection" Books. These
books, one for domestic and one for foreign, present a page or two
on each fuel injection used on cars in the last couple of decades.
This book is handy not only to see how things are done but also to
determine what part you need to look for at the junk yard or parts store.

Finally, buy a FACTORY service manual for some representative cars.
The 'vette manual is pretty good.  I hear the Mustang 5.0 manual 
is pretty nice.  Most of the jap manuals are very good, even if
writting in japlish.

Next,  you're going to need some basic test equipment.  A good DMM,
a tach, a method of measuring pulse width (A Fluke 89 does all this),
a pulse generator and a selection of electronic parts.  You'll need
basic mechanical measuring instruments such as a micrometer, 
a caliper, a fuel pressure gauge and so on.

There are a couple of inexpensive methods of getting started.  One is to
buy an old car with fuel injection and consider it your experimental
vehicle.  I'm quite fond of the 75-76 vintage Datsun Z-cars.  The 
fuel injection is pure Bosch L-jetronic and is trivially easy to work with.
Just about any asian car of that vintage would be good.  Detroit was 
still ignoring electronics during that time.  Whatever you get, buy a 
service manual and start experimenting.  Fool around with sensor calibrations
and see what happens.

Another method that is useful not only for getting started but also
for advanced development work is the research engine.  While factory-made
research engines are expensive enough to make your lips sputter,
you can easily construct one from a common single cylinder engine
and an electric motor driven with DC and acting as an eddy current 
dyno.  Or a hydraulic pump.  I've used motorcycle engines and the
ever-present Briggs & Stratton engine.  The B&S is nice because if 
you completely 'splode it, you have not wasted much money.  A PC,
a data acquisition and control card and a bit of custom written
software will get things going. You'd want to measure the engine and
control the dyno.  About the only thing you cannot investigate on 
a research engine such as this is multicylinder interaction in the
intake and exhaust. 

The advantage of the research engine approach is that you can build it on
a nice little roll around cart and move it out of the way when you're
not experimenting.  And you can run it anytime and not have to 
worry about the pigs generating revenue at your expense.

What may be your biggest task, if you're a typical college
student, is de-programming yourself from the college method. 
College forces you to conform to the rules and do things to get
an arbitrary result defined by others. In racing, there are no
rules other than physical limitations.  Oh, the sanctioning body
writes some rules but these are only obsticles to work around.
You have to condition yourself to ignore those who tell you you
cannot do something.  Maybe you can, maybe you can't.  Almost
all major advancements in the art have come as the result of
some rebel or  another doing something unconventional.  
And you've got to be willing to break things.  The old saw "tuning
involves cranking things up til something breaks, then backing off
a hair." is the gospel truth.  If you don't bother to find where
the breaking limits, the guy who has and therefore knows how 
close to the edge he can get will beat you.

YOu'll notice I did not list any magazines.  That's because there
are practically none.  About the only one I know of that even
skirts technology is "Turbo" magazine.  Even it is about as shallow
as a mud puddle in the middle of the desert.  I'm fixing to do 
something about that.  Stay tuned.

>It is good to see someone other than big companies working in this area.  The
>spirit still lives.


Hey, I think hotrodding has never been better.  I can do my
tuning with a PC instead of tools and obscure parts such as jets
and a wish and a hope.  A lot of computer people don't realize
it but the automobile is the ideal target for  embedded systems
hacking.  don't stop with engine management.  Look around the
car.  Consider, for example, the cruise control I built many
years ago.  Not restrained by the safety nazis, I could design
one that met my needs.  This system had a speed setpoint
joystick instead of forcing one to achieve a speed and push a
button.  With this joystick, I could vary the car's speed -
still on cruise - to accomidate traffic or changing road
conditions.  All with the flick of a finger. That one was all
analog but I'm going to redesign it with an 8051  as soon as I
get time. 


John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 05:37:25 1992
Subject: Re: ENGINE RECOMMENDATION
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>If you're looking to match modern TPIsystems for purposes of product
>development then you'll probably have to look a while until you find a
>Z28/IROC/'Vette that somebody pasted; they've not been around that long
>that they'd be in the yard from wear. 

Thanks everone for the suggestions.  I've got more than enough info
to start shopping.

>
>OTOH I've been wondering whether it would make sense to take a quality
>aftermarket intake and retrofit port injection. Certainly a tunnel ram
>would flow enough air; a dual-plane like maybe the Edelbrock Performer RPM
>might be a bit more sensible but a shorty tunnel ram would have nice straight
>runs and extra room in the tubes for the injector snout. If you're targeting
>the performance aftermarket then you might look more at this route and at
>selling complete setups (for bigger bux$). You could even sell dual
>throttle bodies (for folks who just simply have to have it)...

I'd be more inclined for street/strip engines to use the stock designed
manifold and have it extrudehoned.  Then add a large throttle body
and away we go.  Even though I have not worked with the TPI yet,
I can look at it and see lots of good engineering that I'd like to 
take advantage of.  Even the big name manifold guys are selling stuff
that does not depart too much from the stock manifolds.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 16:31:09 1992
Subject: FI/Engine Management
To: hotrod@dixie.com



>>I'm interested in auto electronics, like engine management systems, etc.
>>I'm not out to start a business or sell anything, I just want to learn
>>more about how things are done.  I will graduate at the end of May with
>>a BSEE degree from Bucknell, so the electronics part won't be the limiting
>>factor.
>>
>>My question is where to start?  I can't afford to buy systems to cut up, and my
>>new 5.0 'Stang has to keep running 8^)
>>What references on the subject exist?

>You can get a lot of good book learning that is invaluable but there's
>not much way you're going to really know what you're doing until
>you actaully get some grease under your fingernails.  And you're not
>going to really understand the limits until you break a few things.
>I present as Exhibit 1, my piston collection (points to dozens of pistons
>and pieces of pistons :-)

( rest of message deleted...)    

I agree with John completely about going in and getting your hands dirty. 
Another option is to go to a local tech college and take a course or two
on the fuel management system of your choice. At good old Greenville Tech
I took two classes on the EEC-IV system that involved actually diagnosing
problems as part of the class. Very frustrating but very educational. I 
even managed to help a buddy fix an EGR problem on his Saleen Mustang.
Another good thing about the classes was that they gave out manuals which
detailed all the components and strategies used in the EEC-IV system. 
They also taught classes on the GM systems. You have a head start being
an EE. I'm just a stupid old ME.  

All the books that John mentioned are excellent. They are somewhat pricey.
I have an inside connection as the professor I work for is the editor of the
SAE Sensors and Actuators publication. (S. J. Citron, John). 

Buying a factory service manual is invaluable. In the engine control system
research I'm doing, the service manual has been invaluable in tracing
wiring and knowing where to tap signals to run to the oscilloscope and PC.

I have to agree with John about hotrodding with engine management systems.
These systems are not as big and scary as everyone thinks. They work off this
wonderful principle called logic. If you can think enough to write a computer
program, then I think you know enough to fool with FI systems. I would much
rather track down a problem with a meter, oscilloscope, and logic than try
to play with jets, accel. pumps, etc.  


jeff armfield
armfield@ecn.purdue.edu



----------
Posted by: armfield@ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey S Armfield)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 16:37:48 1992
Subject: Re: Auto Trans.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I have a prototype of a nifty little 11 lb cordless
>battery charger here that will become a product someday.  This thing
>consists of a 2 hp weed whacker engine, an alternator and some
>custom controls.  I designed this thing for drag racers and others
>who need to rapidly charge a battery away from electrical outlets.
>This thing generates 60 amps (alternator's limit, not engine's).
>The alternator is directly driven at the two stroke's 5800 rpm peak
>power point.

That's a pretty Wattey Weed Wacker John ;^)  What size cables did
you put on this thing??

Phil - prg@mgweed.att.com

----------
Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 16:45:21 1992
Subject: more questions about 904 trannys
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Okay, we agreed that a 904 tranny could be used on a 360, while they were
mainly designed for 318's and 6 bangers, right? Well, the question is 
even though I am using a 904 tranny with a 360 engine, There was a problem
when selecting the correct torque convertor. When I purchased the engine that
I was going to build, it had the convertor conected to the engine, the correct'
one for the 360. But when I had the engine built, the shop put the 318
convertor back on, which was the wrong one because of the balencing used on 
the 360 is placed on the convertor and the 318 is not. So thanks to them,
my tranny burnt up. So I had it rebuilt, but I later found out that the reason
they did not put the correct convertor on was because it had a different 
diameter on the shaft in the convertor, but if this is the case. How did the
tranny shop fit the correct one on the tranny? I am just curious about this
because I know my engine is running fine, but yet it has problem getting
up and going. I was considering buying a stall for it, but would I run into the
same problem with shaft being the wrong size, or was that a line of bull?

I am really confused about this, anybody have a clue?

----------
Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 16:46:34 1992
Subject: Re: Auto trans HP losses
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Bob Valentine requested more info on HP losses in automatics. Reprinted
here without the express written consent of Hot Rod Magazine (please 
don't sue me Uncle Jeff!!) is the sidebar found on page 69 of the July
'91 issue of HRM.

	SPIN TO WIN

	All automatic transmissions are not
	created equal. While durability and
	gear ratios are key factors in choosing
	an automatic for street or competition
	applications, you should also consider
	how much power it takes to spin that
	trans up through the gears. The guys
	at Torque Converters, Inc., (TCI) gave
	us this simple little chart that com-
	pares all the popular automatics and
	how much horsepower it takes to 
	accelerate these gearboxes. The results
	might surprise you.

	=====================================
	  TRANSMISSION     |     HP LOSS
	-------------------------------------
	  Powerglide       |     18
	-------------------------------------
	  TH350            |     36
	-------------------------------------
	  TH400            |     44
	-------------------------------------
	  Ford C6          |     55-60
	-------------------------------------
	  Ford C4          |     28
	-------------------------------------
	  Chrysler A904    |     25
	-------------------------------------
	  Chrysler 727     |     45
	-------------------------------------

	According to TCI, the C6 requires the
	most power to accelerate, but happily,
	it's also the easiest to improve. It's
	more expensive and a little tougher to
	free up horsepower in a Powerglide.
	Ironically, while it is easy to jack 
	up the line pressure in most automatics,
	increased line pressure is the biggest
	horsepower thief. Higher pressure means
	more lost horsepower.

So there you have it guys. Notice that these figures represent what HP it
takes to accelerate the mass and overcome the internal friction and line
pressure of the trans as it accelerates from dead stop to trap speed.
(I'm assuming trap speed since TCI's claim to fame is racing automatics.)
No mention is made nor implied that a TH400 robs 44 horsepower under
steady state conditions. Which may explain why on a chassis dyno you see
such a purportedly small difference between manuals and autos.

All this chart says is that if you have more rotating mass to accelerate
and more friction and hydraulic losses to compensate for, it takes more
horsepower to do it. Nothing wrong with the physics here.

Hope this helps to clarify the issue.

Vic Cook

----------
Posted by: vcook@sierra.com (Victor Cook)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 17:47:56 1992
Subject: Re: Auto Trans.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>>I have a prototype of a nifty little 11 lb cordless
>>battery charger here that will become a product someday.  This thing
>>consists of a 2 hp weed whacker engine, an alternator and some
>>custom controls.  I designed this thing for drag racers and others
>>who need to rapidly charge a battery away from electrical outlets.
>>This thing generates 60 amps (alternator's limit, not engine's).
>>The alternator is directly driven at the two stroke's 5800 rpm peak
>>power point.
>
>That's a pretty Wattey Weed Wacker John ;^)  What size cables did
>you put on this thing??
>

Went down to the locak K-mart and bought an el-cheapo set of jumpers.
A quick snip of the dykes in the middle and viola!  Two cables.
These are the el-cheapo ones with the 6 gauge wire and half an inch
of rubber so they look REALLY big and REALLY good.  I selected that
size on purpose.  On a flat dead battery, the alternator turns into
a horsepower sink that can stall the engine.  Instead of addressing
this in my controls with extra complexity, I simply include enough
resistance in the hookup leads to prevent the stall most of the time.

------- quick context switch ------------

New addition to my test equipment stable.  My new  Fluke 80i-410
AC/DC Hall Effect clamp-on ammeter probe just arrived. Costs
about $130 and works with any meter that can display AC/DC 
millivolts.  This thing is very accurate as compared to my
laboratory shunt and has none of the static offset problems of
the asian clone I'm about to toss in the trash that I paid about
the same for. The display changes less than 0.1 amp while moving
the wire anywhere inside the opening, again in stark contrast to
the clone. Can't beat American engineering and now apparently,
american pricing. 

My Fluke 88 automotive DMM has a peak/hold feature and so with this
thing I can grab peaks such as starter motor peak draw and the like.
I has a high enough bandwidth that I can measure the current draw of
a fuel injector with a scope attached.  I compared it against
a shunt hooked inline with my test bench and saw no difference in
waveform.

Best of all, the manual has a schematic with part numbers.  This
looks trivial to build into an existing AC clamp.

Highly recommended.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 17:57:33 1992
Subject: Re: Auto trans HP losses
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Bob Valentine requested more info on HP losses in automatics. Reprinted
>here without the express written consent of Hot Rod Magazine (please 
>don't sue me Uncle Jeff!!) is the sidebar found on page 69 of the July
>'91 issue of HRM.

>So there you have it guys. Notice that these figures represent what HP it
>takes to accelerate the mass and overcome the internal friction and line
>pressure of the trans as it accelerates from dead stop to trap speed.
>(I'm assuming trap speed since TCI's claim to fame is racing automatics.)
>No mention is made nor implied that a TH400 robs 44 horsepower under
>steady state conditions. Which may explain why on a chassis dyno you see
>such a purportedly small difference between manuals and autos.

My bogosity alarm is still in full alert.  With no specification as to
what dRPM/dt is used for test conditions, it's all just mental masturbation.
I'll bet TCI has just the solution to all these "problems".

I'm not picking on you, I'm picking on what appears to me to be just
some more of the typical drivel I see coming from hot rod magazines.
This reads like little more than an infomercial.  An honest report
would separate the inertial drag from the static drag such as line
pressure loss.  It would also compare the gains in reaction time
from lower rotating mass to the effects at shift time of not having
the inertial energy to "push" you through the shift.  In 
other words,  if the lack of mass allows the engine to fall off the
cam at shift time and bog, you lose.

TCI MAY have a solution to a legitimate problem; the article just 
doesn't say so.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 19:30:32 1992
Subject: Hot Starts and FI
To: hotrod@dixie.com

	I posted about the hot starts a few days ago but don't think
I ever saw it come out. Anyway, my brother always had a hot start problem
on his '71 442 (455). When he installed a new 455 w/ higher compression
and headers, the problem got really bad. The solution was to use a remote
mounted solenoid. Summit has a kit for like 30 bucks and it worked great.

	Onto to FI. As far as manifolds go, for a small block I always
thought that the Smokey Yunick Cross Ram (similar to the '69 Z28 Cross
Ram) would be a good choice. The supposed story on the manifold is that
the design is good, but there are wet flow distribution problems. A 
perfect problem for port FI to solve. 

						Greg 

----------
Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 00:35:09 1992
Subject: a couple of non-related questions
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Howdy!

	Well, 'tis time to start re-working the beast.... so here goes.

	I am also having the starting problem described of late.  What is 
involved in switching to a remote solenoid?  Or should I go for the heat 
shield first?
	
	I am thinking of going up a gear ratio or two.  The current one in
the truck is a 3.08, I think.  I went up two tire sizes, from a P215 75R15 
to a P235 75R15, which generated a 15 millimeter increase in ride height.
I'm thinking of going to either a 3.23 or 3.31, in order to restore the 
factory final drive ratio.  My main question is, can I go higher, such as 
something between a 3.31 and a 3.73 and not worry about screwing up the 
transmission valve settings, etc, or going against them, at any rate?

	'Tis new cam time.  #5E is worn halfway down....  What I'm looking 
for is mainly mileage, but with a little power off the line.  Of course, 
I'm going to be looking at the "mileage" cams and the "torquer" and "RV" 
cams, but I may be trying to get something a little more specialized.  
What should I look for?  I've heard that Rhodes lifters allow one to use a 
more radical grind without sacrificing idling quality.  Is this true?

Thanks

-blaine 
bnh5940@rigel.tamu.edu


----------
Posted by: BNH5940@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU (The Shadow -- VAX Lord)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 00:42:42 1992
Subject: Re: charging system.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>In regards to that "11 pound battery charger", have you tried to charge 
>a low or nearly dead battery with it. I'm not sure I'd believe it could
>do that with an alternator, as alts tend to need 12V +/- a volt or so
>just in order to activate the field.  I've never seen an alt charge a 
>dead battery.

No problem.  Actually the field needs only a volt or two to
generate  full output at high RPM.  Given an ample supply of
power (NOT the case in my generator), the output voltage and
current will reach an  equilibrium with the state of the
battery.  I think - but have not  proven - that the magnetic
path saturates in the process. Where power is limited, the
alternator CAN pull the engine all the way down.  That's why in
the unit with the Rev 1 controller, I included leads with a bit
of resistance to inhibit the problem.    Nifty thing about these
leads.  They heat up a bit almost immediately and the positive
tempco of copper increases the resistance when it's needed and
then cool down as the severe load decreases.  sorta self-regulating.

In Rev 2, the controller excites the field only based on RPM
feedback until the full charge voltage  threshold is reached. 
The alternator is excited to keep the engine fully loaded at all
times.  This has been demonstrated to be almost the  fastest way
to charge a battery.  Rev 3 will likely trend the charge 
voltage and predict the charge endpoint.  

It's interesting dealing with the torque curve of the two stroke
engine.  It does not have enough torque when starting to generate
the amp or so needed to excite the field.  What I had to do
is resistively bleed some current into the field to get the first
voltage and then after the engine is up to speed, apply whatever
field is needed.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 11:30:28 1992
Subject: Re: a couple of non-related questions 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

	
>	I am thinking of going up a gear ratio or two.  The current one in
>the truck is a 3.08, I think.  I went up two tire sizes, from a P215 75R15 
>to a P235 75R15, which generated a 15 millimeter increase in ride height.
>I'm thinking of going to either a 3.23 or 3.31, in order to restore the 
>factory final drive ratio.  My main question is, can I go higher, such as 
>something between a 3.31 and a 3.73 and not worry about screwing up the 
>transmission valve settings, etc, or going against them, at any rate?

You didn't say what kind of truck or motor you have so I'll give some
general info from my experience. I have a mildly modified S10 with a
2.8l v6 that came stock with 195/75/14's and 3.73 butt gears. Being
unhappy with the way it looked not to mention how the tires tried to
come off the rims while cornering I opted for a set of 255/60/15's for
the rear (245/60/14's in front). These tires are quite a bit taller than
the stock crap. With the 3.73's and 5th gear over drive the motor turns
about 3 grand @ 60-65 mph. Torque has not suffered any that I can tell
although the motor is about 30hp better than stock (155hp, wow wee!). I
think the 235/75/15's would work fine with a 3.31, 3.55, or 3.73 rear
end, if fact I would be inclined to for get the 3.23's. Golly gee wiz, I
just remembered I have an equation for figuring gear ratios, here it is
in all it's glory:

                 Loaded rear wheel radius * rpm
Vehicle speed = ----------------------------------
                      186 * rear gear ratio
OR...

                   loaded rear tire radius * rpm
Rear gear ratio = -------------------------------
                        186 * vehicle speed


>	'Tis new cam time.  #5E is worn halfway down....  What I'm looking 
>for is mainly mileage, but with a little power off the line.  Of course, 
>I'm going to be looking at the "mileage" cams and the "torquer" and "RV" 
>cams, but I may be trying to get something a little more specialized.  
>What should I look for?  I've heard that Rhodes lifters allow one to use a 
>more radical grind without sacrificing idling quality.  Is this true?
>----------
>Posted by: BNH5940@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU (The Shadow -- VAX Lord)

I'd suggest staying away from a mileage cam cause IMHO they are shit! Go
with one thats a little more than what you have now. My experience with
mileage cams is that they die quite early in the upper rpms, say
3500-4000rpms, the torquer and RV are not much better (read, waist of
money). Yes the Rhodes do allow a more radical profile with out
sacrificing low rpm driveability. I posted an article a week ago on them
that explained some things about them. If you missed it E-mail me
dirrectly and I'll send you a copy.

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From Hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 15:35:08 1992
Subject: auto trans\hp loss
To: hotrod@dixie.com

another couple question to throw in about that chart-- 

is that hp to get the car moving initially?
once the clutch packs have engaged, is that hp loss gone?
what about shifting?  with a good shift kit, an auto tranny can shift
faster than a manual trans depending on the driver of the
manual...  (that does not include top fueler clutchless manuals, etc)
is there hp loss in the shift?

these are some of the questions they also should have brought up in
that article (i have it at home, and scoured it looking for the
answers)..

can anyone give me an idea of the real figures that should have been
discussed?

thanks,
	Derek Cunningham

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 15:44:04 1992
Subject: Re:  more questions about 904 trannys
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>Okay, we agreed that a 904 tranny could be used on a 360, while they were
>mainly designed for 318's and 6 bangers, right? Well, the question is 
>even though I am using a 904 tranny with a 360 engine, There was a problem
>when selecting the correct torque convertor. When I purchased the engine that
>I was going to build, it had the convertor conected to the engine, the correct'
>one for the 360. But when I had the engine built, the shop put the 318
>convertor back on, which was the wrong one because of the balencing used on 
>the 360 is placed on the convertor and the 318 is not. So thanks to them,
>my tranny burnt up. So I had it rebuilt, but I later found out that the reason
>they did not put the correct convertor on was because it had a different 
>diameter on the shaft in the convertor, but if this is the case. How did the
>tranny shop fit the correct one on the tranny? I am just curious about this
>because I know my engine is running fine, but yet it has problem getting
>up and going. I was considering buying a stall for it, but would I run into the
>same problem with shaft being the wrong size, or was that a line of bull?
>
>I am really confused about this, anybody have a clue?

Well, you've basically got the right idea.  The cast crank A engines have a
different torque converter, as well as a different harmonic balancer (I think).

I ran my cast crank 340 with a steel crank 273 torque converter and the original
904 tranny in my 66 Dart for awhile, and didn't really have any major functional
problem.  I didn't run the car long enough in that configuration to get an idea
about longevity. The 904, 7.25 inch axle, and 4 leaf rear springs, plus the
stock 340 combination really pulped the driveline.  My driving style didn't
help, however, as it seemed like the pinion snubber was bouncing off the
floorboards every shift (from axle twist).

It is possible that the 360 did at one time come mated with a 904 tranny,
in which case you would be able to get a correct converter.

I'm not super sure that the misbalanced 318 torque converter would necessarily
lead to tranny failure.  It is a smaller unit, which would tend to lead to
a higher stall speed, which would lead to more slippage, more heat, and more
shock delivered to the tranny.

The balance of the torque converter seems to be determined by a small block
of metal welded onto one spot of the 360 torque converter, so you might be
able to guess close enough and weld a similar one on a 318 one.

So, they weren't BS'ing you, but I'm not entirely sure what your real
options are.  Hopefully someone else has responded to you in greater
detail?

----------
Posted by: pha@hri.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 16:05:33 1992
Subject: Re: a couple of non-related questions
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> >	'Tis new cam time.  #5E is worn halfway down....  What I'm looking 
> >for is mainly mileage, but with a little power off the line.  Of course, 
> >I'm going to be looking at the "mileage" cams and the "torquer" and "RV" 
> >cams, but I may be trying to get something a little more specialized.  
> >What should I look for?  I've heard that Rhodes lifters allow one to use a 
> >more radical grind without sacrificing idling quality.  Is this true?
> >----------
> >Posted by: BNH5940@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU (The Shadow -- VAX Lord)
> 
> I'd suggest staying away from a mileage cam cause IMHO they are shit! Go
> with one thats a little more than what you have now. My experience with
> mileage cams is that they die quite early in the upper rpms, say
> 3500-4000rpms, the torquer and RV are not much better (read, waist of
> money). Yes the Rhodes do allow a more radical profile with out
> sacrificing low rpm driveability. I posted an article a week ago on them
> that explained some things about them. If you missed it E-mail me
> dirrectly and I'll send you a copy.
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com
> 

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to call those 'mileage and torquer' cams shit.
It all depends on what the application is.  If this person is going to be
hauling wood, or anything heavy, then he's going to need all the low-end 
grunting power he can get.  I've recently, (about 3 months ago), rebuilt my
Chevy C20 pickup motor (350ci, four-bolt mains), and I looked around to
determine what kind of cam I should install in my powerplant.  I decided on
a good 'stump pulling' cam with 270 and 280 degree duration, with .472 lift.
I'm VERY HAPPY with my selection, because I bought a cam designed for what
my intended usage would be.  My advice to the original poster is first decide
what he's going to use the truck for, (working, highway mileage, top-end HP,
etc.), and then start looking around.  My first decision was to talk to my
GM parts dealer, and discuss everything with him.  You figure, with all the
money that the auto makers spend on research and development, they had to have
come up with some fairly decent information. 

Just remember, if your looking for a torque cam, 'less is more'.  Less lift
and duration equals more torque.

Hope this helps....

Laters,


-- 

     Greg Peckham  (stimey)        *******************************************
    Sequent Computer Systems Inc. *                                         *
   S40/S200                      *       No cute .signature here!          *
  1st floor, Deschutes          *                                         *
 Phone:  ext. 83022            *******************************************

----------
Posted by: Greg Peckham 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 16:05:34 1992
Subject: Re: Hot Starting
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I think your on the right track with the heat approach, although John's comment
> about static advance may also be the problem. You don't mention whether the
> car is GM with starter mounted solenoid, but based on the problem I'll assume
> it is. My brothers '71 442 (455 olds) traditionally had this problem. When
> he installed a new 455 with higher compression, the problem got even worse.
> The solution was buying a remote solenoid kit from summit. Now it cranks
> the same speed at all times. This was  a case of doing something, and then
> realizing you should have done it years ago. The remote solenoid kit is
> only like 30 bucks .
> 
> 						Greg
> 

Could you send some more details about this remote solenoid kit?
how does it work, etc.?
where does it mount?
i guess i just don't understand the purpose of the solenoid.  I
thought it was to engage the gear forward.  does the solenoid help
with the supply of power for spinning the motor?
oh my.
could someone detail how the starter actually works?  im sure its
pretty simple, but i must be missing something.  thanks.

if there is any difference, the GM starter is the preferable
discussion topic as it seems that they are the ones that have that
problem the most  :-(

thanks,

	Derek Cunningham

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From Hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 16:22:08 1992
Subject: more hot start clarifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

just a few things i seem to have forgotten to mention....

The engine is 1970 455 buick bored out .030 over
(not equalling 468 as i stated earlier-- sorry about that)

it has stock gm starter w/ solenoid attached

it has been converted to HEI (thanks for the help a month ago on some
of the ideas for it and stuff), with an accel HEI supercoil, 8mm
wires, accel spark plugs.

I have not had the time/manpower (i need two people or some long
wires) to measure voltage-- i will get these figures this weekend and
post them.

all of the grounds are (as far as i can tell) good.
the ground lead comes from the battery to the head of the engine, then
the engine is grounded to the body.  there is also a small wire
grounding the neg. terminal directly to the body.

is it concievable to move the ground lead to the block to use one of
the starter bolts as its connection instead of a bolt into the head?

eegads this is an annoying problem

thanks,
	Derek Cunningham

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 19:22:06 1992
Subject: Hot Starting
To: hotrod@dixie.com


If you have eliminated the electrical connections as a problem, tried
another battery, etc. then it may just be time to have the starter
checked out. Rebuilding shops will be able to look at current draw
and so on. A HotRodDude here was telling me about some guy local who
rebuilds starters for performance - replaces the windings with extra
thick copper ones (rather than plated aluminum), new brushes, replaces
the contact posts, etc. You may have to have this done if the battery
does not sag when the starter is engaged. If the battery voltage drops
below 8-10V though, you'd benefit from a battery with better cranking
amperage.

----------
Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr  3 19:47:52 1992
Subject: auto trans\hp loss
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Derek,

As John mentioned in his response to my posting about the HRM
article on auto trans losses, the lack of specifics about the
test setup does little to answer the real technical questions.

They stated that the HP figures represented the losses incurred
for each type transmission to "accelerate thru the gears".

Not all HP loss in a tranny is gone in a steady state condition.
It continues to cost HP to drive the pump and maintain the 
speed of the rotating mass.

Putting in a shift kit, changing the types of friction materials,
replacing stock drums with lighter units and etc. will all help
reduce HP losses.  How much depends on what you started with and
the quality of the inherent design of the trans itself.

John is correct about magazines too often publishing articles
without stopping to think if the facts are supported by good 
science. In their defense concerning this particular article, I'd
say it is a reasonable *qualitative* comparison of the available
hotrod auto trannys.

I never cease to be amazed at the strip by guys running a 9 inch or 
a Dana 60 in a relatively light, low HP combination. It all comes
down to "More's Law"

	"If more is better, too much ought to be just right!"

If you need a stout tranny to take a lot of abuse from a mega-HP
motor in a heavy car that hooks good, by all means go for the
heavy duty parts. But if you don't need it...

			Save yer money and go faster!

Vic

----------
Posted by: vcook@sierra.com (Victor Cook)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Apr  4 18:05:42 1992
Subject: Saturday
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Ah, someone else alive on a saturday! I've always wondered about the
Ford solenoid conversion for GM cars as a way to fix the hot start
problem. Has anyone tried it as a last resort ? Does it work?
Just seems like a strange way to fix the problem since the hot solenoid
still has to engage the bendix. I still say the battery has to be
good and the cables have to be big. Along with a good HD starter and 
solenoid. Accell makes a high temp HD solenoid that is chrome to boot!
Shoot, the chrome alone is worth a few HP!
Happy Sat!
Ron

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr  5 20:07:12 1992
Subject: Hot Starts
To: hotrod@dixie.com

We have:
>    What is seems to do is to to take the output of the existing GM solenoid,
>and use that to drive a ford-style starting relay mounted on the fender, which 
>in turn sends power to the motor.
>    Since the GM starters (at least the ones were' talking about) use
>the solenoid on their top to not only throw power to the motor, but 
>it also kicks out the gear to mesh with the flywheel.  
>Posted by: ""Robert A. Valentine"" 

Apparently the engaging of the bendix is the easier job. The problem
is that the car is cranking slow, so the bendix is getting engaged. Only
with the deadest of batteries (or sticky solenoids) have I heard the sounds 
of a starter spinning freely. I think since the solenoid is mounted on the
fender well, the high temp (high resistance) is no longer a problem.

And:
>Ford solenoid conversion for GM cars as a way to fix the hot start
>problem. Has anyone tried it as a last resort ? Does it work?
>Just seems like a strange way to fix the problem since the hot solenoid
>still has to engage the bendix. I still say the battery has to be
>good and the cables have to be big. Along with a good HD starter and 
>solenoid. Accell makes a high temp HD solenoid that is chrome to boot!
>Shoot, the chrome alone is worth a few HP!
>Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com

Yeah, Ron my brother did do this. (sorry for those who read about it twice)
Anyway, as you said it was the last resort. The starter was a new supposedly
rewound high torque, the battery was a new Die Hard Gold (900 CCA), and the
cables were new. Based on what I saw after the kit was installed, I think
maybe it should be the first resort.

Chrome is worth more than just a few HP. I am amazed at how many people 
underestimate the power of chrome!!!!!!!!
					
							Greg

----------
Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr  6 11:33:04 1992
Subject: Re: Saturday
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Anyone know how to interface a robot that takes E,7,TWO stop bits RS-232
>to a uP that uses E,7,1start bit,1stop bit!?!?!
>
>
>
>Ed Mulligan
>
>----------
>Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu

Since this will increase the performance of your robot, I guess we can talk
Ed!  ;^)

It strictly depends on the direction of the communications, the port putting
out the two stop bits can easily talk to the one stop bit port.  The other
way around though and things get sticky.  Have you tried slowing down the
communications to a lower baud?  Usually two stop bits apply to speeds below
300 baud..  (Notice how I threw in the word "speed" ;^)  I also thought that
baud, parity and start/stop were programmable on most uP's...  Maybe it's
time to switch to the hotrod of uP's, anything that starts with a MC68*** :^)

Hope every one had a great weekend, got some work done on the rod, but ran
into a snag on my new water pump.  A real nice polished aluminum Weiand
pump.  It was shipped to me with the back unattached along with the bolts
and gasket...  Ready to put it on the rod, I found that the shaft protrudes
out the back of the pump at least an 1/8" INTO the rear cover!  I've heard
of cam buttons before, but this is not the way to do it!

Phil - prg@mgweed.att.com

----------
Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr  6 00:35:42 1992
Subject: I'm gonna be in Heaven
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I think I'm gonna be in heaven.  I've been rattling for a year or so
about building a replica Shelby Cobra (no, I've not been able to get
over and drive that real one.).  My wife's been giving me that
"Don't you even think about it." look.

Well!  We were walking around Charlotte today and I spotted the first of
several Cobra replicars.  This one was painted a gorgeous deep candy
apple maroon.  Real Cobra engine (according to the sign.) 
I said "Doreen, look, a Cobra."  She turns.  "Ohhhh 
I liiiikkkee that!  How much does it cost?"  She looks at the $20k
asking price.  "Not bad.  Can we get one?" (yes)  "How long to put
together?"  (that price is for an already built one)  "Oh Yeah?!?"

I think I'm gonna be in heaven!

John


-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC        | "Hey, don't blame me.  I voted Buchanan."
Rapid Deployment System, Inc. | 2nd Amendment RADICAL 
Marietta, Ga                  |              
jgd@dixie.com                 | Need public access in Atl?  Write me.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  2 19:30:34 1992
Subject: charging system.
To: hotrod@dixie.com


In regards to that "11 pound battery charger", have you tried to charge 
a low or nearly dead battery with it. I'm not sure I'd believe it could
do that with an alternator, as alts tend to need 12V +/- a volt or so
just in order to activate the field.  I've never seen an alt charge a 
dead battery.

----------
Posted by: eap@phase.stanford.edu (Eric Perozziello)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr  7 20:18:24 1992
Subject: 327 engine
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I had asked people for suggestions about the 327 engine in my '65 Chevy
Impala, and I think I've decided what to do.  I want to keep it mostly
stock which means I'm not going to invest in the Edlebrock Performance
cam, intake manifold, and carb, and I'm going to see if the original
engine can be rebuilt.  During the rebuild however, I want to use the
cam, intake manifold, and carb that is used in the stock 300 hp version
of the engine (I've got the 250 hp version).  I also want to make one
non-stock improvement - a set of headers and dual exhausts.  So I have
several questions:

1. I assume that the stock 300 hp cam, intake manifold and carb are
available, but from whom?  I plan to look up in a Chilton manual and see
if that offers any info, but would appreciate any that anyone else can
provide.
2. With my current stock setup the Rochester 4Jet carb has a heat tube
coming from the manifold to control the choke - will I have to stay with
the heat tube set-up with the new carb, or will it have an electric
choke?  Was an electric choke available on 327s in 1965?  If I have to
stay with the heat tube, do headers have the mechanism built-in to
handle this?
3. I also have factory air whose mounting brackets are on the exhaust
manifold - are there headers that can provide the place to mount the
compressor, or should I just scrap the idea of headers and go with stock
exhaust mainfolds and dual exhaust?

Thanks for any input.
-- 
 -Dean 		dean@MorningStar.Com

----------
Posted by: Dean Schell 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr  7 20:44:23 1992
Subject: MSD 8972
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I hope this mailing gets out since our net service seems to have taken a
nosedive in the last day or two.

I have learned some things about the MSD 8972 that may be of interest
to this group.  The 8972 is an ignition retard box that goes between
the distributor and an MSD electronic ignition (their 6, 7, or 8 series
boxes will all work with the 8972).  The retard box has four inputs
which are used to control the time delay of the ignition signal passing
through the box.  The box is useful if you have an engine that likes
to knock under certain conditions (e.g., high boost, nitrous oxide,
high temperature, etc.) because the box can be connected to sensors or
control inputs to retard the timing under the knock-producing conditions.

One of the inputs to the box is intended to connect to the starter
solenoid winding; this input retards the timing by 20 degrees as long as
voltage is present.  This can be a real snout-saver for starters.

The other three inputs are timing retard controls which select an amount
of retard based on plug-in "modules".  The effect of these three inputs
is additive.  The unit comes with modules of 2, 3, and 4 degrees so you
can get any desired retard between 2 and 9 degrees with the supplied
modules.  Additional module kits are available with greater amounts of
retard, but you should probably save your money because a module consists
of a resistor.  The resistor's value in K ohms is equal to the retard it
produces: 2K => 2 degrees, 5K => 5 degrees, etc.

The retard inputs are normally grounded; to activate one you need to
either open it or connect it to 12 volts.  A suggested application
shows the three inputs connected to the solenoids in a 3-stage nitrous
oxide system.  This allows each stage of nitrous to retard the timing
by an additional amount.

This sounds like a gadget that would be of interest to people with
older high-compression engines as well as to those who are building
race engines.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr  7 20:48:55 1992
Subject: Headers for a small block mopar
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I just took a little trip to the local super shops and checked
out the price on a pair of headers for my 75 Duster, 360 small block.
The price was not all that bad, 75 $'s for a pair of cyclone headers, 
but when we read further into the book, it said that you might experiance
some difficulty when installing and that you might have to switch your
transmission kickdown if you have a cloumn shifter(which i do), you would 
have to flip it 180 degrees at the trans and the carb, if I heard him right.
Well, are there any other mopar people out there that have tried to put
headers on their car and ran across this problem. If it is going to be 
to much of a pain, I might just put it off a little longer till I can
get the money and take it into a shop and have them do it, since I do not 
really want to fuss with that and running a new exaust system since this
is a street car also.  As long as we are on the subject, what is the best, 
reasonably priced (under 100 dollars if possibly) headers on the market today
 I would like a pair of headmans, but they are a little out of my price range,
and I can seem to find my summit catalog any where around here to compare
prices....

Thanks

----------
Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr  7 22:33:14 1992
Subject: Re: Headers for a small block mopar 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I remember when I was in high school everybody was getting
these el cheapo headers, and having nothing but problems...
Cracking, exhaust leaks, etc.  I had a 1969 Pontiac LeMans
350,TH350 with the Rochester 2 bbl, stock exhaust manifold, etc.
The only thing I did to the car was get dual exhausts and glass
packs.  I had no problems, and was very happy with the performance.
I used to love to tune the car to death.
Plus, it was my first car, and a lot of fun.
Maybe you could try and find a high performance stock cast iron manifold
at a wrecking yard that would bolt onto your block.  Anybody have
a good suggestion?  Does Hooker still make a good header?  If I
remember right, Hooker was the best (circa 1976).


--------
Dave Arnold -- 1963 Corvette Roadster
Internet: darnold@filenet.com
UUCP: uunet!felix!darnold




----------
Posted by: darnold@felix.filenet.com (Dave Arnold)



From 76701.103@compuserve.com Tue Apr  7 23:42:03 1992
To: 
Subject: The Famous 323i

Folks-
 
A couple of people have asked about the 323i, so I though I'd drag out
my book and give some specs ...
 
The 323i is basically the car we Americans think of as the 320i, but
with a 2315 cc inline "small block" fuel-injected SOHC six cylinder
engine of 143 DIN horsepower. Bore and stroke are 80 x 76.8.  That same
engine is available in sizes down to 1990 cc, BTW.
 
My spec book also lists a DOHC engine of 3452 cc and 277 DIN hp as being
"optional" but I assume that's for some sort of racing class. 277 hp
would make the old girl really pick up her skirts, though!
 
The "320i" style cars were built from 1975 forward, and came with
engines like this:
 
Model       Weight      Engine type     Disp/Cyl  Carb  DIN Hp
 
316         2250            48          1573/4    1x2    90
318         2250            49          1766/4    1x2    90
320         2250            50          1990/4    1x2    98
320i (Euro) 2315            51          1990/4    EFI   125
320i (US)   2610            52          1990/4    EFI   110
320/6       2458            42          1990/6    1x4   122
323i        2502            53          2315/6    EFI   143
 
Production of the 323i started in 1977, as did the US-market 320i.
 
Looking at those figures does tell you a little something about the US-
market 320i; the US crash and emissions regs added almost 300 lbs and
subtracted 15 HP, compared to the European 320i.  The US car was
pleasant to drive (if a little small inside) but it wasn't a barn
burner, and now you know why.
 
The 323i's engine is more of a revver than a torquer, as its undersquare
bore/stroke ratio and 6000 HP peak would suggest.  
 
The 323i is _much_ faster than the US 320i:
 
Model       0-60    0-100    SS.25mi    Top speed
 
320i (Euro)  10       35     17@78         111
320i (US)    12       45     18@74         105
323i          9       31     17@80         118
 
I've driven a 323i, and it was very sporty, but too small for me.
 
If you come up behind a de-badged series I 3-series car, the tip-off on
the 323i is the dual exhausts.
 
-Shel


From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 10:49:49 1992
Subject: Introduction and question
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Hi everyone.  I just got on the list, and figured I'd say hi and introduce
myself and my hotrod(s).  Currently, I have a 1981 Chevrolet Camaro Z28,
complete with: Rancho suspension (springs, swaybars, shocks), 3.73 10-bolt
posi, Heddmann Headers, Flowmaster mufflers, 2 1/2" exhaust, Thermotech
header wraps, TH350, 350 stock engine with: Edelbrock Performer intake,
Accel HEI Intensifier, Champion HOT plugs, Holley 650 dbl pumper with an
Edelbrock power plate installed and a 50cc front accellerator pump,
along with some other small goodies.

It goes well, but I haven't had it to the track yet.  From the local races
I've run with people who have, I figure it in the high 13's (I've beaten
quite a few people who run in the high 13's, so I figure my car is probably
in that range.)  I'll be taking it to the track soon, as I just put it
back on the road and the track opened 1 week ago yesterday, so I'll let
y'all know how it goes.

I also have a 1979 Ford Bronco Ranger XLT that I've owned for 7 years, which
is currently being restored and modified.  It has a 3" Rancho lift kit, 33"
BF Goodrich Radial A/T's, dual exhaust and some other mods.  The body is in
ok shape, but I blew the tranny so I'm restoring the whole thing.  In the
process, I'm installing a 460 (which I already have and am starting to build
now) and lots of other goodies.

My daily beater is a 1984 Camaro, V6, 5spd, boring.  I have a big block 396
sitting in the garage that I'm going to put in this one along with some big
fat slicks, wheel tubs, 4-link, 10-pt roll cage, etc. as soon as my Bronco
is done.  

Anyway, now for my question:  I'd like to find a set of speedometer gears
for a TH350 for 3.73:1 ratio rear end gears, but I haven't been able to find
a GM part number for them.  I know they put 3.73 behind 4-spds and 700R4's,
and I was wondering if anyone knows if the speedo gears from a 700R4 will
fit a TH350?  Also, anyone have any experience installing a 700R4 in a
2nd generation F-body?  I know how to do it, but would like any tips from 
someone who already has done it (I may put one in my Z, but I'm not sure
yet...)  Thanks!!

-- Steve

   Steven T McClure     '84 GPZ 750 Turbo pilot        stm0@gte.com or
GTE Government Systems         DoD #0425              stm0@bunny.gte.com
  Needham, Ma. 02194            /*  Insert standard disclaimer here. */
Beta software: 'beta than nothing, and that's usually all it is...

----------
Posted by: stm0@gte.com (Steven McClure)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 10:58:14 1992
Subject: Re: New info on "The Beast" 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>Well Here's what I found out about my truck:  VIN: *CCU149S175509
>305 CID  5.0l  2-bolt main
>8.4:1 compression
>                Intake         Exhaust
>
>Cam  Lift        .2484          .2667
>     Duration     272            288
>
>Heads            1.72"           1.5"
>
>Rear Axle VIN: RUB052W92
>2.76:1
>
>It took about 15 minutes on hold to retrieve this information; since the 
>truck is a 1979 model, I would put some money on them having to go get the 
>paper inventory records.... ;)
>The $64 question is this:  where should I start?  I'm planning on most 
>definitely upping the rear end ratio, probably to the previously thought 
>3.08:1.  Another must is getting a better cam.  I'm thinking that going to 
>a lift of .400 will get me improved mileage and improved power, while
>keeping the same duration will give me the good idle I'm looking for.
>With 111K miles on the 2-bolt engine, should I wait to do most of this 
>until I do a rebuild, or should I just start with the wrenches now, and 
>wait for a rebuild? 
>----------
>Posted by: BNH5940@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU (The Shadow -- VAX Lord)

Hmmmmm, I'm wondering what "cam lift" really means here. Some how I
don't think that the .2484 and .2667 is lift at the valve so I think
some math is in order here. Assuming a 1.5 rocker ratio your actual lift
would be in the order of .3726 and .4005 witch is about right for a
stock cam. I suggested earlier that you consider the Edelbrock performer
cam and manafold package and that suggestion still stands. If I remember
correctly the lift is around .420 and .440 with close to the stock
durration. This would give you a little more bump that you wanted and
still give good mileage. As far as the 111k miles go it depends greatly
on the condition of the engine. If its begining to burn oil and a
compression test shows loss of or uneven compression I'd do a rebuild
first. My personal bias is to wait and do everything at once as the
motor probably is near the end of it's life any way.
  _________________________________   _____________________________________
 /         _______________         \ /  OLD CHEVYS NEVER DIE, THEY JUST GO \
|        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |     |             R A C I N G !!            |
|      / /_________________\ \|     |   OLD JAPANESE CARS NEVER DIE, THEY   |
|  -------------------------------  |    JUST TURN BACK INTO BEER CANS!!    |
|  / O O O -----Chevy----- O O O \  |_______________________________________|
| (_______________________________) | MARK JENSEN           (503) 627-3115  |
| (_______________________________) | TEKTRONIX METROLOGY LAB.              |
|  |\ _________________________ /|  | BEAVERTON, OREGON        MS. 39-732   | 
|  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |  |        markj@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM       |
 \_|______|_______________|______|_/ \_____________________________________/

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 12:22:12 1992
Subject: Re: MSD 8972/6A
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Derek asks if the MSD 8972 would work with the MSD6A - yes, according
to Autotronics.  It works with all of the MSD 6, 7, and 8 series boxes.
Actually, I suspect that it would work with a lot of other ignitions
also because the 8972's output simulates points to a large degree.

Regarding knock sensors, I have had similar thoughts.  Maybe one of these
days when I finish about 14 other projects I will look into this one.
It shouldn't be too hard; you need a sensor (which usually screws into
the block where a drain plug would have gone), and a signal processor.
The signal processor needs to be gated from the ignition system so that
it knows what spark knock is as opposed to valve clatter, piston slap,
and a bunch of other noises in the engine.  To my knowledge no one
currently makes a signal processor so it would be a roll-your-own project.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: btree!hale@ucsd.edu (Bob Hale)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 13:27:55 1992
Subject: Re: UV Water purifiers
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Thanks for the thought on ordinary germicidal lamps.  The units I have
heard of (haven't seen them yet, but I will soon) use a fairly gonzo
UV lamp, because the water is not in the field of view of the bulb for
very long (a minute or two???)  The bulbs have a quartz (not glass) covering
in order to pass all the UV.  That is why they're so expensive.  However,
I have a friend at a local lighting supply house that could give me the 
whole scoop.

Andy          goris@fc.hp.com

----------
Posted by: Andy Goris 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 14:47:59 1992
Subject: Speedo Gears...
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>Hi everyone.  I just got on the list, and figured I'd say hi and introduce
>myself and my hotrod(s).  Currently, I have a 1981 Chevrolet Camaro Z28,
>complete with: Rancho suspension (springs, swaybars, shocks), 3.73 10-bolt
>posi, Heddmann Headers, Flowmaster mufflers, 2 1/2" exhaust, Thermotech
>header wraps, TH350, 350 stock engine with: Edelbrock Performer intake,
>Accel HEI Intensifier, Champion HOT plugs, Holley 650 dbl pumper with an
>Edelbrock power plate installed and a 50cc front accellerator pump,
>along with some other small goodies.

Sounds prettty good. Stock '81 Z28 cam? Definately post how it ETs.

>Anyway, now for my question:  I'd like to find a set of speedometer gears
>for a TH350 for 3.73:1 ratio rear end gears, but I haven't been able to find
>a GM part number for them.  I know they put 3.73 behind 4-spds and 700R4's,
>and I was wondering if anyone knows if the speedo gears from a 700R4 will
>fit a TH350?  
>-- Steve

>   Steven T McClure     '84 GPZ 750 Turbo pilot        stm0@gte.com or
			     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
					Why do we mess with all this steel and 
					4 wheels anyway? 
			
On the speedo gear, 4sp Z28's from '77-'79 had the 3.73 rear. The 4sp gear
is the same as that used on the TH350. If you can find one of these in a
junk yard or maybe get a parts man to reference it, you should be otay.
Not sure how the 700R4 fits into the picture. Also,I noticed the latest
Summit catalog includes some speedo gears in it, not sure if one for this
application is listed. Anyone have the catalog handy? 

						Greg

p.s. John, I've long suspected that if I purified the water that I mixed with
my antifreeze, there would be big power gains!!!!!

----------
Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 18:48:20 1992
Subject: Olds Manual Trans.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Hi all-

    I've got a question for all the Olds 4speed freaks and machinists out
there.  Right now, I've got a Olds 350 in a 71 Cutlass, which would like to
become a 4speed.  Right now, it's got a T-400.  
   The problem is that, as I recall, when I rebuilt the engine, I looked 
at the back of the crankshaft were the pilot bearing would be, and it doesn't
have the hole.

       now                           what it should be
        _____                                ______ 
	|                                    |
	|                                  _ |      
        |                                 |      <----- for pilot bearing
	|                                 |_ 
	|                                    |
	|                                    |
	-----                                 ------
Now, the my  question is do I have to look for a olds 350 crank with a 
pilot bearing hole, or can I take it to a good machine shop and have
the hole drilled?  I would assume it would have to be sonic checked to
make sure there is metal there.  I think there would be, as it would be odd
for the factory to have two different castings for m/t and a/t, as 
this part of the crank looks machined.  
    I wouldn't normally do this, but I bought a 71 olds that had been wrecked, and
the guy just wanted the motor, so I got the rest, which was a M-22, linkage,
TILT colum, and the factory guage package for a measly $500.

thanks ,    -----> Bob

----------
Posted by: ""Robert A. Valentine"" 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 20:47:51 1992
Subject: PS: Speedo gears
To: hotrod@dixie.com


By the way, I forgot to mention, the gears for the TH350 and 700R4 do not
interchange. In fact, for a few years now, a magnetic pickup is used in the
tranny (700R4) instead of gears.  Changes via computer link.

Jegs offers a kit to install a TH350 in place of a 700R4 but I've never
seen anything for the reverse.

----------
Posted by: vcook@sierra.com (Victor Cook)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 20:52:42 1992
Subject: Re: Speedo gears
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Some of the shop service manuals for specific models (such as Corvette) list
the color and number of teeth for driven speedo gears as a function of the
differential ratio.

Every time I have had to buy a new gear because of a gear and/or tire size
change, the counterman asked for the number of teeth. To get this, I do one
of the following:

1)  If I know my speedo is accurate before the change, I use the ratio of 
    the new/old component(s) to calculate the new number of teeth needed.

2)  If I don't know if the speedo is accurate, I clock the car with the new
    component(s) installed on a stretch of highway with mile markers. Using
    the ratio of the observed/calculated speeds, you can apply it to your
    calculation of the necessary number of teeth.

Both of these methods rely on knowing the number of teeth to start with,
which means you'll need to pull the existing speedo gear. Be careful not to
drop it down in the trans! 

Armed with this info you can confidently stride up to the counter and say,
"Gimme a speedo gear with 32 teeth for a 82 whatever with a TH350." If he
asks what color, tell him you're color blind.

----------
Posted by: vcook@sierra.com (Victor Cook)



From HOTROD@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 23:22:57 1992
Subject: The only time a mouse beat my friend's Mopar
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Well, I've been covered with replies for the mouse story, so here it is:


Back in High School, my friend Chuck had a 1966 Dodge convertible.  A nice
318 car, very nice cruiser.  Well, he wanted to hop it up a little.  So he
swapped in a police 440, with headers, etc.  The car really moved.

His radiator had a small leak, and he wanted better cooling, so he
found a Road Runner radiator that would fit in the car.  Working weekends,
he did the swap.

The car ran great.  A friend said he saw light under one of the front tires
once.  I can confirm that it really pulled.  The day he was showing it to me,
we went out to test (beat) on it a little.  After about 10 minutes, it started
to overheat.  It overheated bad enough to glaze all of the clutches inside
the 727 auto.  It really messed the tranny up.

He looked in the radiator, and saw this fuzzy stuff floating on the water.
It was (or used to be) a mouse.  Evidently it had crawled inside the radiator
while it was inside his garage.  He does live in the country, where field mice
are common.  It didn't come out, and was boiled inside the cooling system!

He had to let radiator flush sit in the car for weeks to get all of the 
mouse out.  During this time, it got colder, and the water in the block
froze, and popped the freeze plugs.  The radiator flush doesn't mention
that it won't stop freezing.

The mouse didn't make it, but it sure took out enough stuff along the way!



Ed M.

----------
Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 23:51:09 1992
Subject: RE: REC.AUTOS.HOTRODS NEW
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: mgwhiz!mogun!dcg@mgweed.att.com

-> > running, but he was awed by the torque.  Like I'd told him, he'd
-> built > much more motor for his money than he could ever have
-> obtained from a > small block.

> WOW! Hey Dave did you ever get a ride in that beast?

 No, but his buddy got stationed here, and lives three houses down. '71
Firebird, 470-inch Pontiac, Offy 2x4 intake with 2x660 Holleys, 10.8:1
CR, big cam, headers, ported heads.  An even hotter motor than Kevin's,
and the car weighs about the same.  John doesn't have US plates on the
Firebird yet, but he's fired it up for me, and I've seen a video my
brother made of it in Manila.  Starts off, the screen is black with this
incredible roaring noise.  The roar dies down a bit and you hear this
big block idling "rumpity rumpity rumpity" and then the black starts to
clear away... it's tire smoke, and you see this orange Firebird sitting
in the street, with burned rubber all over the rear fenders, doors, and
even the trunk lid.  Back years ago we used to think extended burnouts
like that were childish, but nowadays... heck, people think 200hp and
0-60 in 10 seconds is fast - big blocks just flat blow them away.

 He'll have plates next week.  (monetary problems only, no emissions
here)  I'll give you an enhanced report then.  I may have to make a few
dozen test runs, you know.  Just to verify my facts... 


ps: John says the car's numbers aren't all that great, but it sure is
    fun to drive...
           

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 23:56:28 1992
Subject: hemi's
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: julietbnc!dxs@csn.org (Dan Stanger)

-> does anyone know which chrysler autos used hemi heads.  in particular
-> were there any sixes that did.

 Australian Chrysler Hemis were sixes.  Nice little motors, though quite
small.
                                                                            

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 00:03:08 1992
Subject: 327 ENGINE
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: Dean Schell 

-> of the engine (I've got the 250 hp version).  I also want to make one
-> non-stock improvement - a set of headers and dual exhausts.

 I'm probably going to get a lot of heat over this... but I've never
seen any definite benefits from headers on a relatively mild smallblock
such as yours.  Duals will be fine, but the headers make maintenance a
pain, tend to rattle or drag the ground, tend to leak at the center
ports, rust out within a few years, and are noisy.

 The ram's-horn manifolds your Impala came with aren't tuned, but they
have very low restriction.  They fit, probably don't leak, and are
quiet.  YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)


-> 1. I assume that the stock 300 hp cam, intake manifold and carb are
-> available, but from whom?

 That's the standard iron spreadbore intake, which is as good as nearly
any aftermarket manifold up to 5000 RPM or so.  There was an aluminum
variant in the late '70s.  The carb was a Quadrajet; a nice accurate
device, but difficult to find calibration parts for.  I'd recommend the
Carter ThermoQuad or AFB, or a Holley if you're more familiar with them.
The camshaft is available from any auto parts store; it's a common
regrind item, or any of several cam companies now sell "nostalgia"
reproduction cams.  I'd recommend you get a modern camshaft - there have
been great advancements in the last thirty years!  Call your favorite
cam company's tech line and ASK - it's free, and the techs usually know
their stuff.  If you live in an emissions state, make sure you tell
the cam people.
                         

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 00:03:11 1992
Subject: RE: 327 ENGINE
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)

-> junk yard on this one, any pre-emissions 4bbl intake works, only the
-> Corvette intakes are really different. The best ones are 1965-1969

 Not quite.  There were at least two styles of the "square bore" iron
dual plane, used with the AFB and Rochester 4-Jet.  These stink.  The
spreadbore intakes are pretty good, and come in iron or aluminum
versions.  There was a different aluminum dual plane as an option on the
Camaro; it is identified by a big "W" on it.  Myth had it they were made
by Weiand, but the W actually stood for Winters Foundry, where the
manifolds were cast.

 I think there were some late-type emissions spreadbore intakes with
smaller runners to mate with the 267/305 heads, but I'm not sure.  With
the older emissions intakes, the only difference was the EGR boss and
passage.
                                                                                                                          

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 00:13:17 1992
Subject: RE:  ROLLER CAM FOLLOWERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


replt to: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)

-> tip lifters. Does somebody actually make roller bearings for the cam
-> journals? I'd think you'd need to either have a much smaller journal
-> or get the holes rebored.

 Iskenderian used to make cams with roller bearings.  I think they'll
still do it on special order, but it's not really worth anything.

 Unbeknownst to most people, a properly lubed plain bearing has less
friction and higher load-bearing capabilities than rollers.  That's one
reason why even racing engines are gradually converting to plain
bearings.  (and you thought it was the bean-counters at work... )
                                                                    

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From HOTROD@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 01:22:34 1992
Subject: Roller bearings and cams...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The is doesn`t refer to the roller bearing plates that go in front of the cam
to cushon the cam as the tapered lobes and high spring rates tend to 
push it forwaard in the block?  The new cCamaror Craft magazine has a blurb about
these in the new products section,.

Why don't they taper the lobes half in one direction, and half inthe other,
so the forces cancel out and the cam stays centered?  What am I missing?


Ed M.

----------
Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 10:45:10 1992
Subject: Re: MSD
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The Hotrod List writes:
> 
> >> I have learned some things about the MSD 8972 that may be of interest
>> to this group.  
> 
> >I have been thinking about purchasing the MSD 6A setup for our
> >motor...
> 
> Get the -6T or the one with the rev limiter built in (6L?)  The-6T
> comes with a very nice rubber vibration isolation kit for mounting.
> 
> >does the above work along with the 6A?  
> 
> Yes.  
> 

I thought the 6A was the one with the rev limiter...  what's the
difference between the 6A, 6T and the 6L?
price? or is there really a functional difference?


























----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 10:51:54 1992
Subject: Re: Introduction and question
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The Hotrod List writes:
> 
> 
> Hi everyone.  I just got on the list, and figured I'd say hi and introduce
> myself and my hotrod(s).  Currently, I have a 1981 Chevrolet Camaro Z28,
> complete with: Rancho suspension (springs, swaybars, shocks), 3.73 10-bolt
> posi, Heddmann Headers, Flowmaster mufflers, 2 1/2" exhaust, Thermotech
> header wraps, TH350, 350 stock engine with: Edelbrock Performer intake,
> Accel HEI Intensifier, Champion HOT plugs, Holley 650 dbl pumper with an
> Edelbrock power plate installed and a 50cc front accellerator pump,
> along with some other small goodies.
> 
> It goes well, but I haven't had it to the track yet.  From the local races
> I've run with people who have, I figure it in the high 13's (I've beaten
> quite a few people who run in the high 13's, so I figure my car is probably
> in that range.)  I'll be taking it to the track soon, as I just put it
> back on the road and the track opened 1 week ago yesterday, so I'll let
> y'all know how it goes.
> 
> I also have a 1979 Ford Bronco Ranger XLT that I've owned for 7 years, which
> is currently being restored and modified.  It has a 3" Rancho lift kit, 33"
> BF Goodrich Radial A/T's, dual exhaust and some other mods.  The body is in
> ok shape, but I blew the tranny so I'm restoring the whole thing.  In the
> process, I'm installing a 460 (which I already have and am starting to build
> now) and lots of other goodies.
> 
> My daily beater is a 1984 Camaro, V6, 5spd, boring.  I have a big block 396
> sitting in the garage that I'm going to put in this one along with some big
> fat slicks, wheel tubs, 4-link, 10-pt roll cage, etc. as soon as my Bronco
> is done.  
> 
> Anyway, now for my question:  I'd like to find a set of speedometer gears
> for a TH350 for 3.73:1 ratio rear end gears, but I haven't been able to find
> a GM part number for them.  I know they put 3.73 behind 4-spds and 700R4's,
> and I was wondering if anyone knows if the speedo gears from a 700R4 will
> fit a TH350?  Also, anyone have any experience installing a 700R4 in a
> 2nd generation F-body?  I know how to do it, but would like any tips from 
> someone who already has done it (I may put one in my Z, but I'm not sure
> yet...)  Thanks!!
> 

i just got through correcting the speedo in my LeSabre.  it has a
TH400, and from what i was told, the same info applies to the TH350

The speedo gear is on the side of the tranny behind where the speedo
cable gets screwed in.  it is a plastic gear behind this housing that
reads the output shaft speed.    if the gear is between 35 and 39
teeth, it has its own housing.  if the gear has 40 - 44 teeth, there
is a different housing that offsets the gear to match inside.  I'm not
sure what happens if you need bigger than 44 tooth gear... i havent'
dealt with that.  the gearing goes as follows.  have someone else
travel next to you on a highway (or whereever) at 60 mph.  read your
speedometer and calculate the difference between the readings.  on the
gear, it is approximately 2.5 mph per tooth.  if your speedo reads
high, it needs a bigger gear.  if it reads low, you want a smaller
gear.  good luck!

Derek Cunningham











----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 17:59:10 1992
Subject: ROLLER BEARINGS AND CAMS.
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu

-> Why don't they taper the lobes half in one direction, and half inthe
-> other, so the forces cancel out and the cam stays centered?  What am
-> I missing?

 It'd greatly complicate cam grinding.  Cams are gound on standardized
machinery; you'd have to take it back out, turn it around, and grind it
the other way.  Also, there's no guarantee the lifter bores are
dead-nuts correct, or that the camshaft bearing centerline is exactly in
line with the crankshaft centerline.

 The lobes are tapered to spin the lifters to equalize wear.  Roller
cams are ground square.
         

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 18:04:06 1992
Subject: Re: MSD 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The 6A is the std street/strip unit.
The 6T is the oval track model built to handle vibrations.

The 6L is the 6A with the rev limiter.
RON

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From Hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 18:21:34 1992
Subject: speedo gears-- th350
To: hotrod@dixie.com

i sent a very informative letter on this subject... it seems to have
got lost in the shuffle.  here we go again.

I just got finished correcting the speedo error in my lesabre equipped
with a TH400.  i found it very simple.  this is what you do:

first, find out how far off your speedo is...
have someone else whose speedo is accurate travel next to you at 60
MPH.  see what your speed reads, then calculate the difference.  @60
MPH, the speedo gears count for about 2.5 MPH per tooth.  

next, remove the gear casing (what the speedo cable screws into), and
take out the speedo gear behind it.  count the number of teeth, and
give a call to your local tranny specialist (he usually stocks them),
and tell him you would like to exchange a gear with him.  you have a
(whatever your gear is)fronm a TH350, and you need a XXX tooth gear.

the number of teeth should be more if your speedo read high, and less
if your speedo read low.
good luck,
	Derek Cunningham

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 18:28:09 1992
Subject: Re: Introduction and question
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Derek correctly says that there are two different speedo gear housings
for the T350 and T400, each accommodating gears in a certain range of
tooth count.  If you can't get the right ratio by changing the plastic
gear in this housing then you have two options:

1. Change the gear on the tailshaft.  These are usually 15 or 16 tooth
and may be either plastic or metal.  The plastic ones are factory
installed and are retained by a spring clip while the metal ones are
service parts and are pressed on.  You need some kind of a puller to
remove a metal one and some kind of an installation tool (piece of
pipe of suitable size) to install one.

2. See your local speedo shop and have a little external gear box built
up that will correct for the error.  These usually screw onto the trans
where the speedo cable normally goes, and the speedo cable screws into
the box.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: btree!hale@ucsd.edu (Bob Hale)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 18:28:16 1992
Subject: retro fuel injection for ford big block.
To: hotrod@dixie.com



I see in the latest rag there is a blub about haltech/flowmaster DPI
kit.  The sug. price of $2100 seems sort of steep.  I was wondering if
anyone had made this conversion to a 429 or 460, or if someone could tip
me off to some inexpensive way to install a port fuel injection system on
my old ford motor.  

John,  did you ever go for the Haltech dealership?



thanks for any info.

eric.

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 18:49:13 1992
Subject: tire rotation for radials
To: hotrod@dixie.com

true that there are radials that cannot be reversed, after 2 yrs. with goodyear
tire  i can say that the factory issued a statement that technology had
eliminated the reversal problem of years past.
didn't this post start due to someone inquiring about why thier new
vehicle manual showed a reversal?
18000 miles with 2000 mile rotations and no trouble with mine!
Millam E. Tackitt

----------
Posted by: met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam Tackitt)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 18:49:17 1992
Subject: cam roller bearings
To: hotrod@dixie.com

FORD Motorsports list a set for the 429-460 block, i think that this would
be a high rev only and replace often option.
smokey yunick didn't seem too impressed with the idea!
Millam E. Tackitt

----------
Posted by: met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam Tackitt)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 10 18:57:21 1992
Subject: Re: MSD
To: hotrod@dixie.com

the 6A is the street/strip unit
the 6T is the same but with a pigtail for external softrev limiter
the 6L has the softrev limiter built in
any way you go for the money they are worth it!

----------
Posted by: met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam Tackitt)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Apr 11 11:22:15 1992
Subject: Injection vs. Carbs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

  
Message-Id: <9204120134.AA02086@kcbbs.gen.nz>
Date: 12 Apr 92 01:34:29 EDT (Sun)

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that wants to dabble with fuel  
injection.  
Thanks to John for saving months of research and experimentation.  
Getting that sort of information here is almost impossible and the cost  
of parts to play with is rather prohibitive.  
  
Question time.  
  
In what specific areas does the carb not perform 'ideally' ?  
  
Take a simple example. When you stomp on the gas, the accelerator pump  
delivers a wad of gas to get things going until venturi airflow is  
sufficient to allow the normal jet system to work properly.  
What would an injected system do under these circumstances since a  
richer mixture is desirable for more power anyway ?  
  
Steve.  
  
  
_______________________________________________________________________       
Steve_Baldwin@kcbbs.gen.nz                                           *  
Kappa Crucis - Public Unix BBS                                   k *   *  
Auckland, NEW ZEALAND.                                                .   
FidoNet 3:772/90  Phone (09)817-3714                                 *  
"..one careful owner but also three suicidally reckless ones." Douglas Adams  
  
  

----------
Posted by: Steve_Baldwin@kcbbs.gen.nz



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Apr 11 20:52:36 1992
Subject: FI/Carbs
To: hotrod@dixie.com


  
>Question time.  
>  
>In what specific areas does the carb not perform 'ideally' ?  
>  
>Take a simple example. When you stomp on the gas, the accelerator pump  
>delivers a wad of gas to get things going until venturi airflow is  
>sufficient to allow the normal jet system to work properly.  
>What would an injected system do under these circumstances since a  
>richer mixture is desirable for more power anyway ?  
>  
>Steve.  
>  
>  
>_______________________________________________________________________       
>Steve_Baldwin@kcbbs.gen.nz                                           *  
>Kappa Crucis - Public Unix BBS                                   k *   *  
>Auckland, NEW ZEALAND.                                                .   
>FidoNet 3:772/90  Phone (09)817-3714                                 *  
>"..one careful owner but also three suicidally reckless ones." Douglas Adams  
  
I'll tell you what I know about Ford's EEC-IV system and other can chime in
with other makes. 

When the microprocessor senses a sudden change in throttle postion via the
throttle position sensor, the mixture is set to the rich side by opening 
each injector for a longer period of time. I can't seem to find it in my
documentation at the moment, but I think it sets the air fuel ratio to
13.something. I'll have to double check this.

jeff armfield
armfield@ecn.purdue.edu





----------
Posted by: armfield@ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey S Armfield)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Apr 11 23:25:12 1992
Subject: RE:  ROLLER CAM FOLLOWERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>reply to: prg@mgweed.att.com
>
>-> Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how the subject lines are
>-> getting changed to upper case??
>
> Unfortunately, they're replies to messages from me.  The Courts of
>Chaos is a PCBoard BBS with a usenet gateway.  It uppercases the subject
>line and truncates it to 20 characters.  It's hardwired, nothing I can
>do about it, and I get about one message every two days asking what's
>going on.
>
> There are over a hundred PCBoards with the same gateway software, but
>evidently there aren't many messages actually coming in from them.
>                 
>
>----------
>Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)

Thanks for the info Dave, You'll just have to learn to write smaller ;^)

Sorry, you'll have to forgive my sick sense of humor, I've been laying
under my hotrod ALL day!  BTW while I had the pan off the bottom, I
could see the bottom side of some real nice looking aluminum pistons..
The only identifying marks were stamped on the bottoms, possibly the
manufactuers name, and all I could see was the last two letters "EN",
any idea what they are??

Tired and greasy, I'm

Phil - prg@mgweed.att.com

----------
Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 12 06:26:44 1992
Subject: Re: Headers for a small block mopar
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The reason for the headers is  that acording to the cam specks
that is in my car right now, it is recomended that you put headers
on the car and maybe a stall, and I have always wanted to put headers 
on it, as for stock headers, I have never heard of those for a crysler,
I don't know, maybe there is such a thing


and ps, I do have duals and glass packs already...

And one more thing, a question, When I watch drag racing or monster
truck pulls, I always see after the run they put plugs in the exaust,
(open headers) which I was told, and assumed to be the truth,  to prevent
cool are from rushing up the short pipes and warping the valves. Has anyone
else heard this? Because when I was at the Auto store and was disscussing
this with them, they just looked at me REAL funny like I had no idea
what I was speaking of...so...am I right or wrong???

----------
Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 12 05:57:17 1992
Subject: RE: 327 engine
To: hotrod@dixie.com

well dean let me start at the top of your questions.....
1.  You can get the cam from crane part number 3896929, or from chevy as
part number 14060651. You can probably find that cam from many other sources.
The carb can be gotton from any resto catalog or such. i am not up on Impala's
or the 1965 300hp engine so don't know what it is.  As far as the manifold goes
you will probably have to hunt swap meets for that.

2. The heat tube will probably have to be abondened with the addition of headersall the tube does is provide warm air more quickly to the cold engine.

3. As far as the air conditioner braket goes there are brackets availabe for usewith headers.

well i hope this helps
bart

----------
Posted by: RA080@zeus.unomaha.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 12 13:46:59 1992
Subject: Re: Headers for a small block mopar
To: hotrod@dixie.com

In article <8zvjyqb@dixie.com> hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>
>And one more thing, a question, When I watch drag racing or monster
>truck pulls, I always see after the run they put plugs in the exaust,
>(open headers) which I was told, and assumed to be the truth,  to prevent
>cool are from rushing up the short pipes and warping the valves. Has anyone
>else heard this? Because when I was at the Auto store and was disscussing
>this with them, they just looked at me REAL funny like I had no idea
>what I was speaking of...so...am I right or wrong???

That's the theory. I've never actually seen an exhaust valve warp for
this reason though, and I've run engines *without* an exhaust manifold
at all. Not a good practice if you want best power, but it's never
damaged anything.

Gary

----------
Posted by: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 12 23:23:24 1992
Subject: Re: REC.AUTOS.HOTRODS NEW
To: hotrod@dixie.com


In article , hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu (The Hotrod List) writes:
> 
> reply to: mgwhiz!mogun!dcg@mgweed.att.com
>and I've seen a video my
> brother made of it in Manila.  Starts off, the screen is black with this
> incredible roaring noise.  The roar dies down a bit and you hear this
> big block idling "rumpity rumpity rumpity" and then the black starts to
> clear away... it's tire smoke, and you see this orange Firebird sitting
> in the street, with burned rubber all over the rear fenders, doors, and
> even the trunk lid.

Ooooh, ahhhhh, pant pant.  I WANT TO SEE THAT VIDEO!!   :O)


> but nowadays... heck, people think 200hp and
> 0-60 in 10 seconds is fast - big blocks just flat blow them away.

YES! This is the kind of talk I like to hear.
A lot of my friends try to tell me that new cars are sooo much faster than
old cars and I just shake my head.      
Ahh, thank you Dave, it's so nice to hear from someone with taste.
                                     
 
>  He'll have plates next week.  (monetary problems only, no emissions
> here)  I'll give you an enhanced report then.  I may have to make a few
> dozen test runs, you know.  Just to verify my facts... 

Oh at least a dozen tests, of course just to verify your facts so you can
file them with us experts, as-a-matter-a-fact I think maybe you should keep
the car for a week just to make sure that your report to the net is accurate.:u)

> ps: John says the car's numbers aren't all that great, but it sure is
>     fun to drive...

That's what a car like that is for, fun, who cares what everybody else thinks
just so long as he has a good time with it.

> ----------
> Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)




                       David Gunsul 
                       dcg@mogun.uucp
                       

                       The information contained in the post above
                       may be unsuitable for younger or more sensitive
                       readers. This post was written as it happened,
                       nothing was reenacted.

----------
Posted by: mgwhiz!mogun!dcg@mgweed.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 02:43:19 1992
Subject: RE: HEADERS FOR A SMALL B
To: hotrod@dixie.com


> I've never seen open headers or stub pipes warp the valves on short
>track or drag engines, or motorcycles, or even my lawnmower.  Really
>must get a muffler for that lawnmower someday...  
 
naw...you want to keep the high performance you get from not having one!
even more so if you have a riding mower, and want to get ET's on it! :)


Not to mention that you get to really annoy the neighbors... >:)

-blaine

----------
Posted by: BNH5940@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU (The Midnight Shadow)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 12:48:05 1992
Subject: EFI Systems
To: hotrod@dixie.com

	I purchased a stand alone EFI system from:
				Air-Sensors Inc.\
				708 Industry Dr.
				Seattle Washington
						98188

	The kit was complete with:
			4" air mass sensor
			custom cast aluminum hat
			900 cfm Throttle body with 4-40# bosch injectors
			Programmable Digital Control Unit
			Nice looking wiring harness
			lots of misc. bits and pieces

	Installation took two days, my '67 XR-7 required some interesting
	modifications. When installed it looks very nice and high tech.
	If you don't have access to a CO calibration sensor you can nudge
	it in by ear, somewhat like a carb, but beg borrow or pay to have
	someone tune it.
	response is very good, tuning is set and forget as it adjusts itself
	for changes in altitude or weather. 
	Top end performance dropped noticably from my 780 holley, but I believe
	that with some performance engineering i can regain most of that back.
	If you want to know anything let me know.

	Millam E. Tackitt

----------
Posted by: met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam Tackitt)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 15:22:58 1992
Subject: Speedometers
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>i just got through correcting the speedo in my LeSabre.  it has a
>TH400, and from what i was told, the same info applies to the TH350
>
>The speedo gear is on the side of the tranny behind where the speedo
>cable gets screwed in.  it is a plastic gear behind this housing that
>reads the output shaft speed.    


Just a small note about an alternative method of dealing with speedo
error.  A speedometer repair shop will recalibrate and/or compensate
your speedometer for prices that seem to average about $50.  If the
speedo simply needs calibrating, they'll remove it and do it.
If you've done something that requirs compensation, they will install
a small gearbox in the cable and install appropriate gears to
make the speedo read right.  Unless one just likes to rummage around
for the proper pinion gear and/or one does not assign a value to his
time, getting the speedo shop to do the deed is about the cheapest
and surely the easiest way out.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 15:47:13 1992
Subject: Re: HEADERS FOR A SMALL B
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I used to run our Sunbeam lawnmower with no exhaust, since the muffler
bolts rusted off in the block.  It WAS loud, but the motor still needed
more power to vut the deep grass in our back yard.  

The day I ran it on a 75%CAM2 25%regular leaded mix it had no problems
at all.  I wanted to get a tuned header for it, but the block finally 
rusted off the mower deck.  It had 30 years of life, with the plug
gapped by sight, by hitting it with a wrench.


Ed

----------
Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 16:35:14 1992
Subject: Re: Injection vs. Carbs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>In what specific areas does the carb not perform 'ideally' ?  
>  
>Take a simple example. When you stomp on the gas, the accelerator pump  
>delivers a wad of gas to get things going until venturi airflow is  
>sufficient to allow the normal jet system to work properly.  
>What would an injected system do under these circumstances since a  
>richer mixture is desirable for more power anyway ?  

Covering the mainjet delay is only a minor part of accelerator 
pump functioning.  A far larger purpose is providing manifold
wetting flow.  Port fuel injection, because there is little or no
manifolding to wet, requires little or no acceleration enrichment.
Indeed, my wife's toyota Camry has practically no measurable acceleration
enrichment.  Rather than say it again, I'm reposting an old
article from the list.

John
------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: wiz.hotrod
Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
Reply-to: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 23
Approved: jgd@dixie.com

> You could be bogging due to several things (less than comprehensive list).
>Especially at low RPM, being over-carb'ed is a common problem. Insufficient
>flow gives lousy metering. The accelerator pump is supposed to correct this
>but may take a fair bit of messing to get right. There is an "experimenter's
>fun kit" of accelerator pump cams from Holley that contains about 10 different
>profiles. Trouble is (and therefore I haven't even opened the one I bought)
>there seems to be no helpful info on how to determine beforehand which one
>might be the best for a particular behavior. It looks like you just have to
>run through them and decide on the best using the ole whiplash gauge.

Or you can be a bit more scientific :-)  A little background.  Transient
throttle bogging is caused by instantaneous leanness.  This leanness has
three causes.  A) lack of vacuum signal at the metering jets, B) inertia
in the fuel column, and C) fuel being diverted from atomization to 
rewetting the manifold walls after high vacuum dries them.  Funny how
port fuel injection addresses all these problems in one fell swoop :-)

The accelerator pump is a tag-on device that is designed to cover all
these deficiencies.    It does a passing job when properly tuned.  Ideally
the pump would supply a very large shot of fuel that would wet the 
walls and cover the burst of air that fills the manifold vacuum and then
supply a smaller sustaining flow until flow is established on the main 
jets.  Unfortunately, the holly pump can only approximate  this behavior.
If you're getting the idea I don't like carbs, you'd be close.

The holly pump's delivery is governed mainly by two variables - the
nozzle orfice size and the pump spring. Contrary to popular belief, the pump 
cam has little effect on injection rate.  Consider what happens when you
stab the throttle.  The primaries open immediately, forcing the cam to push
the actuation lever fully down.  Gas, being incompressible, resists 
compression and so there is a spring in the pump actuation train.  This 
spring is compressed and then exerts a relatively constant pressure on
the pump diaphram during the injection stroke.  The flow is regulated by
the orfice size.  The injection duration varies according to the spring 
pressure, the pump capacity and the orifce size.  What the cam does do is
regulate what proportion of the pump capacity is injected for small throttle
openings.  In practice, I've seen little difference between all those cams
in the kit.  Perhaps if I were UNDER carburatored, finer regulation would
be needed.  As it is, I generally just leave the stock cam on and tune on
other areas.

Spring pressure is not easily tunable since Holly does not generally offer
a range of springs.  I have made my own springs but that's not a common
capability.  The two tunable parameters are pump capacity and discharge
orfice size.  In pump capacity, you have a choice of 10 cc and 50 CC for 
common aftermarket carbs. Generally if you're overcarburated, you'll
need the 50 cc pump.

>From there, the orfice size is the tuning parameter.  There are two 
conflicting requirements due to the fixed pump volume.  One requirement is
to supply enough fuel to cover the initial air surge and the wetting 
requirement.  The other requirement is to supply fuel long enough to allow
the mainjets to begin to flow fully.  This can be a surprisingly long
interval.  

Tuning consists of installing a large enough orfice to cover the initial
bog.  Then if there is a flat spot a second or so after punching the 
throttle, either the pump capacity must be increased or a smaller orfice 
must be used in order to stretch the injection interval.  It may be 
necessary to go just a bit rich on the main jets in order to help
cover the leanness caused by injecting at a slower rate than needed.

You can try to do this by the seat of the pants but a much better way is
to actually observe the operation of the carb while underway.  Now I
have strapped myself on top of an engine and had a friend drive the car
while I peered down the carb throat.  Not recommended!  A much more 
practical technique is to mount a small video camera over the carb
inlet and video the operation.  Much easier on the eye when the damn
thing spits back.  What you want to observe is the duration of the 
squirt vs when the main jets start discharging.  There should be some
overlap.  If the squirt ends before the mains start flowing, you'll
get a delayed bog.

> I have been working against the same sort of behavior on my car, which is
>probably a worst-case example of sorts - a 231 V-6 with a 750CFM Holley.

About as bad as you can get. :-)  That's about twice the carburator that
engine needs.  Look at the math.  At 6000 rpm, this engine does 3000 
intake strokes per minute.  3000 X 231 cu in = 693,000 cu in/min or
401 cu ft per min.  That, of course, assumes 100 volumetric efficiency
which is not the case.   A small 390 CFM carb would make that engine
run very good.

>in the picture when it's opened up at low speed. A vacuum gauge is nice; 
>I put one in the dash and at half pedal at low speed it drops right down to 
>0; that there is one indication that you are overcarbed. 

Yup

> Another thought - if you have solid secondaries try disabling them. Double
>pumpers are popular but a bit impractical off the track; they require more
>attention to the pedal because they only do what they are told. If it's a
>vacuum secondary, also try disabling the secondaries just for yucks; if the
>bog goes away then you might want to try out different springs in the
>actuator biscuit to hold off opening. The enabling linkage can also be
>bent to change the opening allowed.

Mechanical secondaries are another scourge that needs to be stomped out (kinda
like the coolant rumor.)  I can't imagine any situation short of Daytona,
where the throttle is bolted open for many minutes at a time, where 
mechanical secondaries are appropriate.  Even in drag racing, all 
too much throttle gives you is a big bog.  Vacuum secondaries are
so smooth and work so well, they are probably too complicated for the
average hotrod mag writer to understand :-)


> Anybody familiar with nitrous systems? I know this guy who used to be into
>the street racing scene but has given it up. He sez he has a bunch of stuff
>left over in his garage, among which is a NOS nitrous system. He says he'll
>take $150 for it 

Probably a pretty good price.  About 20 cents  on the dollar.

>Second, the nitrous systems seem to have been evolving a bit
>and I'm not sure the how the more primitive ( ca. 1980 ) setups stack up to
>the current state of the art; 

There's not been much in the way of advancement for simple single stage
units often seen on the street.  You can get electronically controlled
proportional systems but they involve $$$.  Some improvement had been
seen in injection nozzle design but nozzles are relatively cheap.
Besides, you'll probably be using a small, under the carburator
injection system.  

I've been on both sides of the equation. I've used nitrous with my
turbocharged Z engines and I've sold it from my welding gas supply warehouse.
Nitrous is wonderful but habit forming and will really punish indiscretion.
If you turn up the horsepower screws, you can go up to the breaking point
without even trying.   Fastest way I know to acquiring a piston kit (you
know, sweep all the pieces up off the track, glue 'em back together and 
you have pistons.) The second problem is the kick in the pants is so
much fun that you'll get to be on a first name basis with your nitrous
supplier.  I know, I had several junkies tethered on my string :-)

If you're really interested in Nitrous, get the book "Nitrous Oxide 
Injection" by David Vizard.  ISBN 0-931472-16-4.  Publisher SA Designs.
I got mine from the local book emporium a few years ago.  Lots of good
poop.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 16:23:56 1992
Subject: Fuel injection and Automotive high technology
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that wants to dabble with fuel  
>injection.  
>Thanks to John for saving months of research and experimentation.  
>Getting that sort of information here is almost impossible and the cost  
>of parts to play with is rather prohibitive.  

You're welcome.  Your problem is one we all face.  I'm ready to talk about
a solution.  The problem is, of course, that no really technical information
is available to the public or really even the trade.  There are the 
"GEE WHIZ girls'n'rods" magazines like _Hotrod_ magazine.  There is 
the SAE where _Automotive Engineering_ publishes just enough information
to whet the appetite and SAE standards, the purchase of all of them
requires the budget of many third world countrys.  As I've poked around
in and out of industry, my worst fears are being realized - that is,
practically none of the modern automotive research is being published
because of obsessive secrecy within American manufacturers.  
Most publication of interest is being done in Japan in japanese and 
thus mostly unavailable to the average enthusiast or engineer.

I've been pondering a solution to this problem for over a year.  I just
returned from the _Midnight Engineering_ magazine first annual conference,
ME-SKI 92 in Breckenridge, Co (neither machine nor human breathes
at 11,500 feet!)  For those of you who don't know about ME, it is 
the hottest thing going for technology entrepreneurs and those who want to
be.  I write a regular column for the mag.  Bill Gates, the publisher,
(not the evil empire Bill Gates) just decided one day that he wanted
to publish a magazine to fill a niche and made it happen.

I spent a goodly part of the weekend pigeonholing Bill in the bar talking
about magazine publishing.  Bill pretty much convinced me to proceed
with my plan which is to publish a high technology automotive magazine.
Several critical issues remain to be resolved but here is the developing
plan:

This magazine or newsletter (yet to be decided) will be chartered to
provide the same depth of technical and engineering information 
to the mobility field (which includes practically anything that moves)
as magazines such as _Byte_ or _Circuit Celler InK_ does for computers.
There will be a mix of theoretical and practical how-to articles, all
aimed at the individual enthusiast and the current and potential 
small businessmen.  The publication will be subscription and advertiser
supported.  Authors will be paid a rate commeasurate with other 
publications of similar circulation.  Theoretical and/or articles
that involve the design process will be peer-reviewed for accuracy.

I had contemplated just proceeding here on the net or with a mailing list
but there are many problems, among them:

*	Can't include pictures or other graphics on the net.
*	Lack of credibility that paper publications have - important in
	being able to reach those in the know.
*	I don't have time to do yet another non-paying project.
*	Potential authors tend to be more responsive when they get paid
	for their efforts.
*	Lots of potential audience is not on the net.

In order to give you a flavor for what this publication will be, here is
a short list of topics:

*	Designing and building your own fuel injection system.
*	Blueprinting fuel injectors.
*	A homemade fuel injector tester for under $200.
*	Ignition system design.
*	How  works.  "Systems" can be anything from 
	OEM ECMs to ignition control boxes.
*	Do it yourself dynomometers for under $1000.
*	A homemade G-analyst.
*	A homemade flow bench.
*	A homemade exhaust gas analyser
*	Using Nondispersive Infrared Analysis of Exhaust gas for performance
	tuning.
*	High performance electric drive controllers (yep, electric cars too)
*	Design considerations for jet powered drag cars (yep, have a source
	for that one.)
*	The science of nitro-methane and its use.
*	Instrumenting an exhaust system for performance optimization.
*	High performance hydrostatic drives.
*	Using a homemade radar gun for performance tuning.
*	Natural Gas as a high performance fuel.
*	Propane as a high performance fuel.
*	Home Shop heat treating.
*	Home Shop composites techniques and materials.
*	Home Shop anodizing.
*	Home Shop electroplating.

The above topics are those that either I personally will write or 
where I already have a reliable source of information.  You get the 
idea.

Coupled with this effort will be a subscriber-only mailing list
on the Net and a BBS for the net-less wonders out there :-) and
a mail order store where project kits and supplies can be
purchased.  This is not new; _Circuit Celler Ink_ does it but
mine won't be the ripoff his is. ($350 for an 8051 SBC indeed!) 
Wouldn't it be nice to buy fuel injectors, MAP sensors, MAF sensors
and the like complete with mating connectors and  data sheets at
reasonable prices? Thought so.

This is the first public discussion of my idea and I'm not 100% 
committed yet but since this list contains the elite of the hotrodding
world :-) (at least on the net), I'm presenting it here first.
What I'd like from you is any of the following:

*	Are you interested?  Would you pay up to perhaps $4.50 per issue
	in the beginning?
*	Would you be interested in writing?
*	Do you personally know authoritative people who might be interested
	in writing?
*	Do you personally know decision-makers in companies who might be
	interested in advertising?
*	What do you think the potential audience size might be? (I'm
	estimating 20,000 at the end of the first year.)
*	Would you be interested in investing in this venture?
*	Am I completely crazy or what?

Finances will be an important consideration.  I have a very good idea
what it takes to do this after talking with Bill and while I can
swing it, I'm not convinced I'm ready to risk that much by myself.
Bill recommends I jump right in with a 4 color, glossy paper, ~100
page magazine like he did.  I'm not so sure.  It may be that a 
thick newsletter might be a better start.

OK guys, what do you think?  Feel free to call me a nutcase or to
lend support as you see fit.  If you have specific names, please
email me directly (jgd@dixie.com).

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 16:23:56 1992
Subject: Fuel injection and Automotive high technology
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that wants to dabble with fuel  
>injection.  
>Thanks to John for saving months of research and experimentation.  
>Getting that sort of information here is almost impossible and the cost  
>of parts to play with is rather prohibitive.  

You're welcome.  Your problem is one we all face.  I'm ready to talk about
a solution.  The problem is, of course, that no really technical information
is available to the public or really even the trade.  There are the 
"GEE WHIZ girls'n'rods" magazines like _Hotrod_ magazine.  There is 
the SAE where _Automotive Engineering_ publishes just enough information
to whet the appetite and SAE standards, the purchase of all of them
requires the budget of many third world countrys.  As I've poked around
in and out of industry, my worst fears are being realized - that is,
practically none of the modern automotive research is being published
because of obsessive secrecy within American manufacturers.  
Most publication of interest is being done in Japan in japanese and 
thus mostly unavailable to the average enthusiast or engineer.

I've been pondering a solution to this problem for over a year.  I just
returned from the _Midnight Engineering_ magazine first annual conference,
ME-SKI 92 in Breckenridge, Co (neither machine nor human breathes
at 11,500 feet!)  For those of you who don't know about ME, it is 
the hottest thing going for technology entrepreneurs and those who want to
be.  I write a regular column for the mag.  Bill Gates, the publisher,
(not the evil empire Bill Gates) just decided one day that he wanted
to publish a magazine to fill a niche and made it happen.

I spent a goodly part of the weekend pigeonholing Bill in the bar talking
about magazine publishing.  Bill pretty much convinced me to proceed
with my plan which is to publish a high technology automotive magazine.
Several critical issues remain to be resolved but here is the developing
plan:

This magazine or newsletter (yet to be decided) will be chartered to
provide the same depth of technical and engineering information 
to the mobility field (which includes practically anything that moves)
as magazines such as _Byte_ or _Circuit Celler InK_ does for computers.
There will be a mix of theoretical and practical how-to articles, all
aimed at the individual enthusiast and the current and potential 
small businessmen.  The publication will be subscription and advertiser
supported.  Authors will be paid a rate commeasurate with other 
publications of similar circulation.  Theoretical and/or articles
that involve the design process will be peer-reviewed for accuracy.

I had contemplated just proceeding here on the net or with a mailing list
but there are many problems, among them:

*	Can't include pictures or other graphics on the net.
*	Lack of credibility that paper publications have - important in
	being able to reach those in the know.
*	I don't have time to do yet another non-paying project.
*	Potential authors tend to be more responsive when they get paid
	for their efforts.
*	Lots of potential audience is not on the net.

In order to give you a flavor for what this publication will be, here is
a short list of topics:

*	Designing and building your own fuel injection system.
*	Blueprinting fuel injectors.
*	A homemade fuel injector tester for under $200.
*	Ignition system design.
*	How  works.  "Systems" can be anything from 
	OEM ECMs to ignition control boxes.
*	Do it yourself dynomometers for under $1000.
*	A homemade G-analyst.
*	A homemade flow bench.
*	A homemade exhaust gas analyser
*	Using Nondispersive Infrared Analysis of Exhaust gas for performance
	tuning.
*	High performance electric drive controllers (yep, electric cars too)
*	Design considerations for jet powered drag cars (yep, have a source
	for that one.)
*	The science of nitro-methane and its use.
*	Instrumenting an exhaust system for performance optimization.
*	High performance hydrostatic drives.
*	Using a homemade radar gun for performance tuning.
*	Natural Gas as a high performance fuel.
*	Propane as a high performance fuel.
*	Home Shop heat treating.
*	Home Shop composites techniques and materials.
*	Home Shop anodizing.
*	Home Shop electroplating.

The above topics are those that either I personally will write or 
where I already have a reliable source of information.  You get the 
idea.

Coupled with this effort will be a subscriber-only mailing list
on the Net and a BBS for the net-less wonders out there :-) and
a mail order store where project kits and supplies can be
purchased.  This is not new; _Circuit Celler Ink_ does it but
mine won't be the ripoff his is. ($350 for an 8051 SBC indeed!) 
Wouldn't it be nice to buy fuel injectors, MAP sensors, MAF sensors
and the like complete with mating connectors and  data sheets at
reasonable prices? Thought so.

This is the first public discussion of my idea and I'm not 100% 
committed yet but since this list contains the elite of the hotrodding
world :-) (at least on the net), I'm presenting it here first.
What I'd like from you is any of the following:

*	Are you interested?  Would you pay up to perhaps $4.50 per issue
	in the beginning?
*	Would you be interested in writing?
*	Do you personally know authoritative people who might be interested
	in writing?
*	Do you personally know decision-makers in companies who might be
	interested in advertising?
*	What do you think the potential audience size might be? (I'm
	estimating 20,000 at the end of the first year.)
*	Would you be interested in investing in this venture?
*	Am I completely crazy or what?

Finances will be an important consideration.  I have a very good idea
what it takes to do this after talking with Bill and while I can
swing it, I'm not convinced I'm ready to risk that much by myself.
Bill recommends I jump right in with a 4 color, glossy paper, ~100
page magazine like he did.  I'm not so sure.  It may be that a 
thick newsletter might be a better start.

OK guys, what do you think?  Feel free to call me a nutcase or to
lend support as you see fit.  If you have specific names, please
email me directly (jgd@dixie.com).

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 16:35:14 1992
Subject: Re: Injection vs. Carbs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>In what specific areas does the carb not perform 'ideally' ?  
>  
>Take a simple example. When you stomp on the gas, the accelerator pump  
>delivers a wad of gas to get things going until venturi airflow is  
>sufficient to allow the normal jet system to work properly.  
>What would an injected system do under these circumstances since a  
>richer mixture is desirable for more power anyway ?  

Covering the mainjet delay is only a minor part of accelerator 
pump functioning.  A far larger purpose is providing manifold
wetting flow.  Port fuel injection, because there is little or no
manifolding to wet, requires little or no acceleration enrichment.
Indeed, my wife's toyota Camry has practically no measurable acceleration
enrichment.  Rather than say it again, I'm reposting an old
article from the list.

John
------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: wiz.hotrod
Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
From: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)
To: hotrod@dixie.com
Reply-to: hotrod@dixie.com
X-Sequence: 23
Approved: jgd@dixie.com

> You could be bogging due to several things (less than comprehensive list).
>Especially at low RPM, being over-carb'ed is a common problem. Insufficient
>flow gives lousy metering. The accelerator pump is supposed to correct this
>but may take a fair bit of messing to get right. There is an "experimenter's
>fun kit" of accelerator pump cams from Holley that contains about 10 different
>profiles. Trouble is (and therefore I haven't even opened the one I bought)
>there seems to be no helpful info on how to determine beforehand which one
>might be the best for a particular behavior. It looks like you just have to
>run through them and decide on the best using the ole whiplash gauge.

Or you can be a bit more scientific :-)  A little background.  Transient
throttle bogging is caused by instantaneous leanness.  This leanness has
three causes.  A) lack of vacuum signal at the metering jets, B) inertia
in the fuel column, and C) fuel being diverted from atomization to 
rewetting the manifold walls after high vacuum dries them.  Funny how
port fuel injection addresses all these problems in one fell swoop :-)

The accelerator pump is a tag-on device that is designed to cover all
these deficiencies.    It does a passing job when properly tuned.  Ideally
the pump would supply a very large shot of fuel that would wet the 
walls and cover the burst of air that fills the manifold vacuum and then
supply a smaller sustaining flow until flow is established on the main 
jets.  Unfortunately, the holly pump can only approximate  this behavior.
If you're getting the idea I don't like carbs, you'd be close.

The holly pump's delivery is governed mainly by two variables - the
nozzle orfice size and the pump spring. Contrary to popular belief, the pump 
cam has little effect on injection rate.  Consider what happens when you
stab the throttle.  The primaries open immediately, forcing the cam to push
the actuation lever fully down.  Gas, being incompressible, resists 
compression and so there is a spring in the pump actuation train.  This 
spring is compressed and then exerts a relatively constant pressure on
the pump diaphram during the injection stroke.  The flow is regulated by
the orfice size.  The injection duration varies according to the spring 
pressure, the pump capacity and the orifce size.  What the cam does do is
regulate what proportion of the pump capacity is injected for small throttle
openings.  In practice, I've seen little difference between all those cams
in the kit.  Perhaps if I were UNDER carburatored, finer regulation would
be needed.  As it is, I generally just leave the stock cam on and tune on
other areas.

Spring pressure is not easily tunable since Holly does not generally offer
a range of springs.  I have made my own springs but that's not a common
capability.  The two tunable parameters are pump capacity and discharge
orfice size.  In pump capacity, you have a choice of 10 cc and 50 CC for 
common aftermarket carbs. Generally if you're overcarburated, you'll
need the 50 cc pump.

>From there, the orfice size is the tuning parameter.  There are two 
conflicting requirements due to the fixed pump volume.  One requirement is
to supply enough fuel to cover the initial air surge and the wetting 
requirement.  The other requirement is to supply fuel long enough to allow
the mainjets to begin to flow fully.  This can be a surprisingly long
interval.  

Tuning consists of installing a large enough orfice to cover the initial
bog.  Then if there is a flat spot a second or so after punching the 
throttle, either the pump capacity must be increased or a smaller orfice 
must be used in order to stretch the injection interval.  It may be 
necessary to go just a bit rich on the main jets in order to help
cover the leanness caused by injecting at a slower rate than needed.

You can try to do this by the seat of the pants but a much better way is
to actually observe the operation of the carb while underway.  Now I
have strapped myself on top of an engine and had a friend drive the car
while I peered down the carb throat.  Not recommended!  A much more 
practical technique is to mount a small video camera over the carb
inlet and video the operation.  Much easier on the eye when the damn
thing spits back.  What you want to observe is the duration of the 
squirt vs when the main jets start discharging.  There should be some
overlap.  If the squirt ends before the mains start flowing, you'll
get a delayed bog.

> I have been working against the same sort of behavior on my car, which is
>probably a worst-case example of sorts - a 231 V-6 with a 750CFM Holley.

About as bad as you can get. :-)  That's about twice the carburator that
engine needs.  Look at the math.  At 6000 rpm, this engine does 3000 
intake strokes per minute.  3000 X 231 cu in = 693,000 cu in/min or
401 cu ft per min.  That, of course, assumes 100 volumetric efficiency
which is not the case.   A small 390 CFM carb would make that engine
run very good.

>in the picture when it's opened up at low speed. A vacuum gauge is nice; 
>I put one in the dash and at half pedal at low speed it drops right down to 
>0; that there is one indication that you are overcarbed. 

Yup

> Another thought - if you have solid secondaries try disabling them. Double
>pumpers are popular but a bit impractical off the track; they require more
>attention to the pedal because they only do what they are told. If it's a
>vacuum secondary, also try disabling the secondaries just for yucks; if the
>bog goes away then you might want to try out different springs in the
>actuator biscuit to hold off opening. The enabling linkage can also be
>bent to change the opening allowed.

Mechanical secondaries are another scourge that needs to be stomped out (kinda
like the coolant rumor.)  I can't imagine any situation short of Daytona,
where the throttle is bolted open for many minutes at a time, where 
mechanical secondaries are appropriate.  Even in drag racing, all 
too much throttle gives you is a big bog.  Vacuum secondaries are
so smooth and work so well, they are probably too complicated for the
average hotrod mag writer to understand :-)


> Anybody familiar with nitrous systems? I know this guy who used to be into
>the street racing scene but has given it up. He sez he has a bunch of stuff
>left over in his garage, among which is a NOS nitrous system. He says he'll
>take $150 for it 

Probably a pretty good price.  About 20 cents  on the dollar.

>Second, the nitrous systems seem to have been evolving a bit
>and I'm not sure the how the more primitive ( ca. 1980 ) setups stack up to
>the current state of the art; 

There's not been much in the way of advancement for simple single stage
units often seen on the street.  You can get electronically controlled
proportional systems but they involve $$$.  Some improvement had been
seen in injection nozzle design but nozzles are relatively cheap.
Besides, you'll probably be using a small, under the carburator
injection system.  

I've been on both sides of the equation. I've used nitrous with my
turbocharged Z engines and I've sold it from my welding gas supply warehouse.
Nitrous is wonderful but habit forming and will really punish indiscretion.
If you turn up the horsepower screws, you can go up to the breaking point
without even trying.   Fastest way I know to acquiring a piston kit (you
know, sweep all the pieces up off the track, glue 'em back together and 
you have pistons.) The second problem is the kick in the pants is so
much fun that you'll get to be on a first name basis with your nitrous
supplier.  I know, I had several junkies tethered on my string :-)

If you're really interested in Nitrous, get the book "Nitrous Oxide 
Injection" by David Vizard.  ISBN 0-931472-16-4.  Publisher SA Designs.
I got mine from the local book emporium a few years ago.  Lots of good
poop.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 13 19:49:22 1992
Subject: RE: REC.AUTOS.HOTRODS NEW
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: mgwhiz!mogun!dcg@mgweed.att.com

 My brother sold John the Offy 2x4 intake he had on his 455 Nova.  John
dropped by Saturday.  The car wouldn't idle, and he had found a crack
across the left rear runner.  I looked at the manifold closely, and BOTH
rear runners were cracked through to air and there was a visible bend in
the back half of the manifold.  You could see where it had been dropped,
not once, but many times.  How UPS managed that I don't know.  We took
the manifold down to my favorite welder this morning, who said he'd go
ahead and break off the bent parts, build a jig to hold everything in
correct alignment, and weld the thing back up.  Probably cost thirty
bucks or so, but worth it.

 The only problem with the 2x4 is that it's getting harder to make
people beleive it's only a 350 Pontiac.  They get soooo humiliated when
they lose to a "350".  
                                                                                                                        

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 14 10:25:37 1992
Subject: Re:  Fuel injection and Automotive high technology
To: hotrod@dixie.com

John, I would like to subscribe to your magazine. Where else I can
get all these information together for only $5? 

Just hope you can be financially successful too. There was a weekly 
magazine(reader's digest kind of thing) in Chinese published electronicly on
internet two years ago. They start with two people. Now there are
more than 80,000 readership worldwide.  So maybe you can get first 
few issues published electronicly just to get the word out.

Jialin

PS. If you are going for the newsletter thing, you can use my 1000dpi
    printer.
    

----------
Posted by: Jialin 



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Tue Apr 14 14:23:44 1992
Subject: Re: Fuel injection and Automotive high technology
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>You mentioned a price of about $4.50 per issue; I assume that it would be
>published monthly so that's $54 per year.  Yeah, it's a bit high but I
>would go for that for the first year anyway.  Presumably advertising
>revenues would build so that the price could drop in following years.
>I can justify that price if I read just one article in it that saves me
>$50 in some automotive project in a year.

I'm anticipating bi-monthly to begin with but who knows?  If the demand
is there.  

>The big question in my mind relates to product reviews.  Most mags don't
>do honest reviews for fear of antagonizing current or potential advertisers.
>How do you plan to handle this problem?

It's only a problem when the publisher allows it to be.  That's one 
reason I plan to keep the subscription price moderately high - I 
want the magazine to be supported by the readers to a degree that 
editorial content can be independent of any advertizer.  My plan
regarding product reviews is still evolving but one component of it is
that whenever a product review comes out negative, the review will
be peer-reviewed for accuracy before publication.  That  insures
fairness both ways.  Perhaps they ought to be reviewed in all
cases?

>A newsletter format to get started sounds fine to me; look at Dr. Dobb's
>journal - it was loaded with good stuff and came in "white box" packaging
>at first.  I don't think it hurt them any.  

Exactly.  A Dr. Dobbs-like magazine (back when it WAS a real magazine)
is my goal.

>You might want to consider
>making reprints printed on durable stock available because some of us
>would no doubt like to keep some material for reference.

Funny you'd mention that.  I had a couple of long chats with Don Lancaster
at  the ME-Ski conference.  One of Don's things, for those of you who
don't read him on one of a half dozen magazines, is so-called "publishing
on demand".  This concept involves printing books (or whatever) in
real time with sales using high resolution laser printers and bindery
equipment usable from a small office or home.  I would have to produce
the entire magazine electronically in order to do this.  The normal
technique is to typeset the text and then paste up camera-ready
artwork with it.  Electronic publication would require scanning the 
photographs and diagrams.  Though do-able, I'm not sure about the
practicality of it in the desktop computer environment.  The Kodak
system my wife works on at the office ($100k), sure.  PCs?  Dunno 
yet.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 14 18:28:29 1992
Subject: FUEL INJECTION AND AUTOMO
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> This magazine or newsletter (yet to be decided) will be chartered to
-> provide the same depth of technical and engineering information

 Name it something like "Journal of Automotive Technology" and publish
four times a year.  That way you can have a substantial, quality
publication without having to hustle at each month's deadline.   I'd be
willing to pay $10 per issue if it's *good* information, not trivial
gick like Turbo Magazine.

 You can make a list and hustle for advertisers, but chances are at
least the first few issues will have to pay their own way at cover
price.

 Advertising:  Are you a member of the SAE?  They have a mailing list
of SAE members, and you can buy lists from the various car magazines.
I don't know how bulk magazine sales work, but book sales are Byzantine.

-> *    Are you interested?  Would you pay up to perhaps $4.50 per issue
->      in the beginning?

   Yes.

-> *    Would you be interested in writing?
-> *    Do you personally know authoritative people who might be
->      interested in writing?

   I've sold auto tech articles to Cars & Car Conversions, Open Wheel,
   and Australian Motorcycle News.  I'd be glad to write.

-> *    Do you personally know decision-makers in companies who might be
->      interested in advertising?

   No, but if your rates are fair most of 'em will probably be glad to
   get their necks out from under the foot of Petersen Publications.

-> *    What do you think the potential audience size might be? (I'm
->      estimating 20,000 at the end of the first year.)

   In my own humble opinion, I think 20,000 might be optimistic.  Maybe
   5,000?

-> *    Am I completely crazy or what?

   Oh, definitely.  
                                            

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 14 23:10:42 1992
Subject: Re: Speedometers
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The Hotrod List writes:
> 
> >i just got through correcting the speedo in my LeSabre.  it has a
> >TH400, and from what i was told, the same info applies to the TH350
> >
> >The speedo gear is on the side of the tranny behind where the speedo
> >cable gets screwed in.  it is a plastic gear behind this housing that
> >reads the output shaft speed.    
> 
> 
> Just a small note about an alternative method of dealing with speedo
> error.  A speedometer repair shop will recalibrate and/or compensate
> your speedometer for prices that seem to average about $50.  If the
> speedo simply needs calibrating, they'll remove it and do it.
> If you've done something that requirs compensation, they will install
> a small gearbox in the cable and install appropriate gears to
> make the speedo read right.  Unless one just likes to rummage around
> for the proper pinion gear and/or one does not assign a value to his
> time, getting the speedo shop to do the deed is about the cheapest
> and surely the easiest way out.
> 
> John
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
> 
> 
> 
This has cost me NOTHING, and I value my MONEY much more than my TIME.

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 15 05:56:57 1992
Subject: Speedo gears
To: hotrod@dixie.com

John D. Writes:
>
>Just a small note about an alternative method of dealing with speedo
>error.  A speedometer repair shop will recalibrate and/or compensate
>your speedometer for prices that seem to average about $50.  If the
>speedo simply needs calibrating, they'll remove it and do it.
>If you've done something that requirs compensation, they will install
>a small gearbox in the cable and install appropriate gears to
>make the speedo read right.  Unless one just likes to rummage around
>for the proper pinion gear and/or one does not assign a value to his
>time, getting the speedo shop to do the deed is about the cheapest
>and surely the easiest way out.
>
>John
>

Well, John, you seem to be a bit off the mark... At least as I see it. Taking
it to the local speed shop for $50 doesn't seem like the cheapest/easiest
way to do it to me.  The total time required to change a speedo gear is about
10 minutes, which is less than the time req'd to drive to the speed shop 
at least for me.  This consists of 1)driving up on a set up ramps, 2)unscrewing
the speedo cable, 3)removing one bolt, 4)pulling the gear out, and 
5) reassembly with the correct gear.  Now, assuming that you dont know what
the correct gear is, you may have to do this procedure twice.  But even then,
I dont think that the gear is more than a dollar or so from any GM dealer.
I certainly didnt mean this as a flame, John, although now that I look back
it could be interpreted that way- my apologies.  But am I missing something
here? I have watched this procedure being done by a few different people
(never done it myself, although I certainly would) and it is not at all
difficult.  Perhaps you are referring to speedometer gears for foreign
cars?  There may be some more dissambly involved there, but not for GM
trannys.  Continued thanks for a most interesting mailing list. :)
-Bob



----------
Posted by: ghost of Bob Cunningham 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 15 13:48:10 1992
Subject: Speedo Gears and Rearends
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Well, I called and had the local dealer order me the right speedo gears
for my car, so now I'm just waiting for them to come in.  As for changing
them, it depends on how far off your speedo is on how much work it is to
change them.  If you are just changing one or two teeth, you may be able
to get away with just the outside gear, but if you've put in, say 3.73's
where 3.08's once were in the rearend, then you have to change the gear
in the tailshaft of the tranny as well.  This takes a little longer than
just changing the gear on the speedo cable housing.

Derek:  What kind/year Buick are you looking for a rearend for?  I know
some (if not all) of the older 12-bolts will fit in newer Buicks, but
I'm not sure of all of them.  A friend of mine put a 12-bolt out of a 
GTO in his 83 Buick, (I think it was 83...) and from what I knew, it was
a stock 12-bolt (not shortened or anything.)  I've never done this, but I
have put a A-body 12-bolt into a 79 Z28 without shortening it, just adding
the leaf-spring mounts.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies on the speedo gears, and I'll let you
know if the gears do the job (I ordered '79 4-spd gears with 3.73's) and
how long it took...

-- Steve
stm0@gte.com

----------
Posted by: stm0@gte.com (Steven McClure)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 15 15:32:08 1992
Subject: Re:  Changing speedo gears
To: hotrod@dixie.com

(This was originally a direct reply, but I cc'd the list as I thought
 some of the info might be of use to other people as well after I wrote it)

Hi there.  Umm, let see, if you want to change just the gears, you can
get a new gear set for the rearend.  If you're looking for what other
vehicle's rear ends will fit, I'm not sure on the '79 truck.  If you
are taking the whole rear end, as long as it physically fits, you can
put it in.  Also, if you have big tires on it (like 33's) you may want
a higher gear ratio as well.  I have 3.50's in my '79 Bronco, and am
planning on putting in 4.10's (the 3.50's are factory) as I am running
either 35" or 36" tires, so it cuts down a 4.10 to somewhere around
a 3.50 or 3.60 with the 36" tires (I can't remember exactly, I have the
numbers all worked out somewhere around here.)

I also have a formula to figure out engine RPM's at a given speed with
a given gear and given tire height.  It can be manipulated to give many
different numbers, such as you want the RPM, or the speed, or the gear, etc.
I can't remember it right now, let me look it up...

                (MPH) * (Gear Ratio) * (366)
         RPM = ------------------------------ 
                      (Tire Diameter)

In my case, I want to know what RPM I am turning with 3.73's, 26" tires
at 60 MPH, so I get:

                (60) * (3.73) * (366)
               -----------------------  = 3150.5 (roughly :-) )
                        (26)

which is correct (I checked against my car and a few others with differnet
numbers.)  If you change this to 4.10's with 33" tires, you get 2728.4 RPMS,
with 36" tires it's 2501 RPMS, and with 3.50's and 30" tires, 2562 RPMS.
All these are curising at 60MPH.  So, my Z cruises the highway at 3000 RPMS,
but the speedo is pegged at over 85 (I want a 140 MPH speedo, know any good
sources for one? :-) ) (roughly) and my truck will cruise at about 2500 RPMS.
I got this formula out of a magazene (can't remember which) but it does work
(I have verified it) and is very useful.

To change the speedo gear on a chevy (fords are a little different) you can
changejust the speedo housing gear in some cases, but if you have to change
the gear inside the tranny as well, it goes like this:

1) Raise car from REAR (this is important as you will see)
2) Remove driveshaft (raising car from rear should allow fluid to stay
   in trans without leaking depending on how high you lift it from rear)
3) Place a jack under transmission near back, but not under tailshaft.
4) Remove the 2 bolts holding the transmission to the transmission mount
   on the crossmember.
5) Raise transmission slightly using the jack under it.
6) Remove speedo cable housing and gear.
7) Remove bolts holding the tailshaft to the transmission
   body, and remove tailshaft carefully.
8) Replace internal gear.
9) Put it back together. :-)

Be as careful with the parts as possible, and do not get any dirt/dust/etc
into the transmission, as this can ruin transmission internals.

If you have any other questions, just drop me a line...

-- Steve
stm0@gte.com

----------
Posted by: stm0@gte.com (Steven McClure)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 15 15:38:57 1992
Subject: Midnight Engineering info
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Hi,

I just found out that the ME magazine is only carried at two libraries in
the country, one of which is the library of congress.

But the good news is a subscription is only $20 and is available from
Midnight Engineering at
111 East Drake  Suite 7041
Fort Collins, CO   80525

Phone  #   303-225-1410


eric.

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 15 16:24:39 1992
Subject: GT-40
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I've gotten interested in the GT-40.  Need some info:

1)--Does anyone have experience with the quad Weber downdraft setup for
    V-8's?  Specifically 289/302.  I've have had wonderful performance
    from the DCOE that feeds my street car.  It seems to me that most
    folks who *hate* carbs actually hate Holleys.

2)--How about a manual transaxle that would stand up to a tuned 289/302?
    My only experience with transaxles is VW's and my Renault R10.  It
     frightens me to think what a 302 would do to a Beetle tranny.

3)--Books with *in-depth* info on the GT-40's suspension, chassis, etc.
    No fluff.  Or, how about just an excellent all round text on 
    suspension design?  This brings to mind the recent discussions about
    the Auto High-Tech magazine.  Would be great.  This is not just a problem
    for auto enthusiests.  Too many hobbiest fields have only fluff available,
    or techno-stuff that is just too much theory.

I wonder why more hotrodders don't remember/apppreciate the GT-40.
Seems to be another amazing Anglo-American half-breed.  Anyone else
notice how a British chassis and an American engine seems to be the
recipe for magic?  Cobras, Sunbeam Tigers, MGB V-8's, TR-8's, Jensen
Interceptors...

Leads on used/unwanted GT-40 replica bodies & parts (only authentic replicas,
no VW stuff) would be appreciated.

--Keith

----------
Posted by: kmwheeler@ualr.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 15 17:33:26 1992
Subject: Re: FI
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I have no fear of aftermarket FI. Give me the literature so I can see
>how it works and how it is controlled and I can figure it out. Building
>your own sounds like a great idea. Would love to have it on both of my
>big block Chevys. One street/strip, one strip only. Building custom 
>manifolding could be the toughest part. Dry flow is still critical in 
>order to get proper distribution.

The technique used by the Rutgers guys was a modification of the 
lost wax casting process.  What this involves is fabricating
a model of the manifold passages from wax - easy to do with 
ordinary tools.  Then you mold the manifold body out of epoxy resin
and either fiberglass or graphite.  After the resin is cured, simply
heat the assembly to melt out the wax.

Typically you'd use a metal flange where the manifold bolts to the 
heads for the compressive strength.  A machined-like flat surface
for carbs or throttle bodies is easy to do with this method.
I am just about to commence this process for a new Z-car engine
manifold.  I'm using the head flanges and about 1" of stub from
the old manifold to bond the composite to.

>The problem I see is cost. On a street vehicle how long will it take
>to pay for itself in terms of fuel savings? Current systems for big blocks
>is 3K+. Sounds like a lot of years of driving to me. I realize that the 
>other benefits are many but we do not have bottomless pocket books.

Cost is one of the things that has been driving my efforts to develop
components, make 'em available and write about 'em.  if only
I were wealthy and had 48 hours in each day *sigh*.

>One more thing, how well does the Holley Pro Jection 4 work. Still too
>expensive @ $900 but would love to try one some day. 20% fuel savings
>on my SS is still only 2mpg but I would love to get this thing into
>the 11's!

Like crap.  I have a Pro-Jection 2.  This is about what I've come to
expect from Holly.  There is no input for temperature or MAP. 
There is only throttle position input.  The controls, as they exist,
cover only a very small range and highly interact with each other.
You end up twiddling the knobs when the temperature or baro pressure
changes a few percent.  It will easily flood the engine because
the startup enrichment is non-adjustable.

One of my current projects is an 8051 replacement for the analog box.
If my DS-5000 will ever come in... :-(  It will take inputs from
water and air temperature and MAP and will be programmable from
the PC.  Basically the mechanicals are OK but the electronics are
garbage (done by MSD unfortunately.)

John


----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 15 17:47:00 1992
Subject: Re: GT-40
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> 2)--How about a manual transaxle that would stand up to a tuned 289/302?
>     My only experience with transaxles is VW's and my Renault R10.  It
>      frightens me to think what a 302 would do to a Beetle tranny.

Actually, there is a company that is quite well known for making bullet
proof VW bus transaxles.  You can even get limited slip.  They even
recommend in the article its ability to hold up to V8's.  The company is
Trans-form  (215)435-2996.  Some of their transmissions even carry a
guarantee against breakage.  The ad is quite funny, a cartoon guy in a
buggy has a 426 hemi on it with a mushroom cloud comming out of the
transaxle. The next frame had him asking if the guarantee was still
good, which they claimed it was, while recommending a small block to
him.
-Larry Harris-                |  '86 Mustang lx 5.0 notchback
lharris@hubcap.clemson.edu    |  Meyer's Tow'd Dune Buggy
lharris@clemson.bitnet        |  OS-9, a leaner meaner UNIX
Clemson Computer Engineering  |  RUSH, YES, R.E.M, The Who

----------
Posted by: lharris@hubcap.clemson.edu (Larry Harris)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 15 18:31:58 1992
Subject: Re: HEADERS FOR A SMALL B 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
>> > I've never seen open headers or stub pipes warp the valves on short
>> >track or drag engines, or motorcycles, or even my lawnmower.  Really
>> >must get a muffler for that lawnmower someday...  
>> 
>> Hey you too? My 3.5hp brigs has a custom 6*1/2 inch water pipe for a
>> header. We're talkin some *Real* power improvements here guys! I'll bet
>> it has at least 3.6hp now! 
>> 
>I'll bet you could rent some dyno time and experiment with different
>length pipes for the rpm range you use.  You could probably squeeze at
>least 3.7 horse out of that sucker!  What's next, a small home made
>super charger, or how about ram air ducted from the grass cutting
>blade!!  If its a sit down, it should shave a good 4-5 minutes from your
>quarter mile time.
>----------
>Posted by: lharris@hubcap.clemson.edu (Larry Harris)

No No NO! ya see I've real big plans for that old Craftsman mower. First
I'm gona mill the head so's to bump up the compression, then mount my
old Holley 600 on it, ballance and blue print (there are specs for it
arent there) the bottom end. And of course a turbo set up would be nice
for the tall grass. I think the wife's hair dryer on a 100 foot cord
will work nicely as long as I don't run over the cord! And for those
really tough jobs, a can of starter fluid with a hand opperated
injector to really bump up the ponies!!!! Ya, Ya thats it, that should
get me at least 50+ hp. That'll get that goddamn lawn mowed in a hurry!
Either that or it'll launch it's self into orbit. Now how come those
guys a B+S haven't thought of all these high tech mods, maybe they're
just not the hot-roding type.

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 00:15:42 1992
Subject: Re: Another FI question...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Do any of the FI systems manage both the spark advance and control and the
>fuel metering?  It seems logical that the same unit that sensed air mass and
>throtle position, temp. and for the presence of knocking would be the ideal
>unit to control the spark timing. Combine that with a multiple spark or capacitor
>discharge unit and it might be the ideal thing.  So does something like
>this exist?  Is this in the realm of the Haltech unit?   Or am I missing something
>

Electromotive is the only box I'm aware of that does all of this.  I've
heard rumors that DFI aka NOS aka Accel has something in the works.

The Electromotive system is pretty nice.  It uses a 60 tooth gear mounted
on the crank for timing.  A couple of teeth are deleted in order to flag
TDC on cylinder one.  It uses direct ignition, ie, no distributor.
One dual terminal coil for each pair of cylinders.  Mixture and spark
advance is set through a pair of three dimentional tables that relate
RPM and manifold pressure to the tuned parameter.  The ECU has inputs for
knock and lambda sensors.  the user interface for the PC software is 
really poor, much less nice than the Haltech.  That's the biggest 
problem.  Other than that, the system works really well.


John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 00:25:18 1992
Subject: Keep Off The Grass 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

    >> > I've never seen open headers or stub pipes warp the valves on short
    >> >track or drag engines, or motorcycles, or even my lawnmower.  Real

    >I'll bet you could rent some dyno time and experiment with different
    >length pipes for the rpm range you use.  You could probably squeeze a t
    >least 3.7 horse out of that sucker!  

Um... I love cross-group synchronicity.

It turns out there is a group called the NLMRC, which stands I think
for the National Lawn Mower Racing Championship, dedicated to racing
sit-down type lawnmowers.  And if you're not good, I'll post my article
that answers the question, "What if ESPN covered a lawnmower race 
involving the current Indy car drivers?"  Oh, what the heck...
(If you caught the Long Beach race, please note that this was written
before that race...)  Some of you may have seen this before.  The
rest of you, well, it's your turn now.

And I promise I'll make a genuine hot-rodding post RealSoonNow to make
up for it.  Meanwhile, enjoy.

-----------------------

"Just to give you some idea of the tension, take a look, there's 
Cristina Fittipaldi, she made those ear-rings herself you know, 
and it looks like she's performing a Yanomamo Indian fertility ritual 
so that the grass will grow faster under Emerson's mower...  And now 
here's Dr. Jerry Punch with A. J. after that incident under the 
peach tree..."

"Well, A.J., what happened?"

"Aw, some stupid sumbitch ran over a dog turd and sprayed it up
into the airstream, an' that idiot Cheever ran into me tryin' to
keep it offa his face shield.  Why they let dumb bastards like
that out here with professional racers -- "

"Thank you, A.J.  And now back to you, Bob Varsha..."

"We've got some action down in four!  It looks like Mario has 
run over a sprinkler head and now there's an inch of water all
over the racing line in the short chute, bringing out a full-
course yellow and Safety One!  What do you think about that, David?"

"There's some supposition, I suppose, that Mario might have done
that so that Michael could catch up with the field after his stop-
and-go penalty for running over the garden gnome on lap 42.  I, heh heh, 
it reminds me of a time when I was driving the Zauberfloete Z-20 at
the 'Ring, that's the old Nurburgring of course, and I had a bit of
an off-course excursion.  You might remember, you know, the front wing 
on the Z-20 was shaped, well, it was shaped just like a snowplow, and 
when I missed my braking point for the Karussel, you know, there's a 
groove in there that we used to stick our wheels into and let the car
follow it all the way around, and I..."

"We'll talk to Mario in just a minute, but while the yellow flies, let's 
catch up with Al Unser Jr. about his disappointing day, and here's Jack 
Arute with Little Al..."

"So, Al, what happened?"

"Waal, Jim, the McCormick-Honda was runnin' great all day, my crew
did a great job, but we'd been having problems all weekend on the back
of the course where the surface changes from Miracl-Gro to Kentucky
Blue grass.  We tried two or three different setups in qualifying,
the new Goodyear tires worked great, but we'd be loose on the Miracl-
Gro and then have a bad push when we'd get to the Kentucky Blue, or 
the mower would just not want to stick when we'd go up over the 
planting of Burpee All-Season Color-Wonder zinnias in turn three, 
and we finally broke a CV joint, so we parked it."

"Tough break, Al.  And now back to Sam and Bobby in the announcer's
booth."

"Well, Bobby, it looks to me like they're having just some inCREDIBLE
trouble keeping out of the ivy planting over there at the foot of
the boxwood hedge.  It, from here it seems there's a layer of something
dark just under the top of the grass on the track surface, it looks
to me, yes, it looks as though there's OIL out on the track surface."

"I think that's horse manure, Sam."

"No!  I mean, I really SEE this down there!  This isn't like the time
when I asked if the drivers closed their eyes when they got right up
next to the wall!  How come you guys don't have any respect for me?"

"No, Sam, the brown stuff you see is horse manure, they spread it on
the grass to make it grow better.  It has nothing to do with the fact
that you're without a doubt the most clueless yahoo ever to report on 
a motor racing event."

"Oh.  That's very different.  Nevermind."

"And we'll be back to this exciting ESPN coverage of the Bandini/John 
Deere 200 after these messages..."

--Scott "Don't get me started on the COMMERCIALS" Fisher

----------
Posted by: What was the question again? 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 00:26:41 1992
Subject: rearend transfers
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> I have been looking for a 12 bolt rearend for our buick, and someone
> said that i should go find an old GTO or a Cutlass with a 12 bolt posi
> and use that one.  Can anyone confirm whether or not this would work

I believe that the Oldsmobile 12 bolt is different from the regular 12
bolt (Chevy).  I think it uses smaller/weaker internals.

--
Joseph P. Cernada	AIT, Inc.
914/347-6860		40 Saw Mill River Road
cernada@ait.com		Hawthorne, New York 10532

----------
Posted by: cernada@ait.com (Joseph P. Cernada)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 00:40:17 1992
Subject: Re: HEADERS FOR A SMALL B 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Don't laugh, I have a machinist friend who as well as building some bad
ass street and race motors, is also into quarter midget racing. Engines
used? Briggs and Stratten of course! And he runs them on the dyno! I've
seen it! Hey, he's getting 7hp so you guys better get going! This is for
real.
RON

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 00:40:30 1992
Subject: GEAR
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> way to do it to me.  The total time required to change a speedo gear
-> is about 10 minutes, which is less than the time req'd to drive to
-> the speed shop at least for me.  This consists of 1)driving up on a
-> set up ramps, 2)unscrewing the speedo cable, 3)removing one bolt,
-> 4)pulling the gear out, and 5) reassembly with the correct gear.

 The gear that sticks in the side must match with the gear on the shaft.
I helped a friend do his van a few months ago.

1) jack up vehicle
2) pull driveshaft
3) remove shifter
4) remove transmission
5) drain oil
6) remove side cover and shift forks
7) remove input shaft housing
8) remove countergear key
9) drive out countergear shaft
10) remove main gear and tailshaft from main housing
11) pull internal snap ring that holds tailshaft housing
12) drive pressed-on speedo gear with piece of angle iron
13) drive new speedo gear on
14) reassemble in reverse order, including the thrill of greasing all
    the countergear rollers so they'd stay in place while we used the
    special countergear tool.

 This took most of a day, with frequent referrals to the service manual.
New Process 3+1 overdrives come apart *strangely*, not like the usual
Saginaw, Muncie, or Toploader.
                            

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 00:50:13 1992
Subject: EFI
To: hotrod@dixie.com


For those of you who want to get/create a EFI that will work with knock
sensors, timing advance/retard, or other things, i will recall your
attention to the Air-Sensors unit.
running a M68Hc11 micro-processor allows some amazing potential for  
programmability. the 68k EEPROM has almost 90% of it's available memory
for your own personal use.
I am reprogramming mine to operate 8 40# injectors instead of the 4 that it
comes with, as well as either 2 4" MAS's or 1 5". i think the 2x4" would look 
better. especially if i go with the twin turbo setup i just got. :-)
it would be easy to have this handy little processor monitor the 
knock and boost level then adjust the timing in accordance. 
just for grins you could have it monitor the radar detector and 
slow the engine for you or automatically disconnect the brake lights 
for a moment :-) 
the possibilities are too numerous to mention.

is any one out there familiar with the early cougar engine codes?
I have a 1968 with a 8~~~X   vin.
can't find a listing for an X engine
the block in the trunk is a 427 ford HP SPEC. block has no 
provision for a hydraulic cam, ie; lifter oil gallery is NOT drilled
and there is a relief valve to vent oil from top-end.

Millam E. Tackitt

----------
Posted by: met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam Tackitt)



From HOTROD@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 00:57:02 1992
Subject: Lawnmowers with >500hp...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

OK, I'll be the one to give this thread a more correct title.  It has
nothing to do with MOPARS now.

I think you could tune the header without dyno time.  Bolt on a pipe
that is too long, and put a grease pencil line down the side, and then run it
at the usual speed until the line melts.  Cut the pipe at the point the line 
stops melting, and you'll have the right distance.  You could always flare
(flair?) the end and really destroy your hearing.

I've found (seriously) that CAM2 really helps to get through deep grass, since
the motor didn't bog out and knock when it was heavily loaded.  

If you really want to tach it up, remove the blade.  It screams then!

Has anyone ever seen lumberjack events?  People actually do hotrod chainsaws
for competition!

I wonder if you could drive a supercharger (or modified turbo) from the 
blade shaft, or the geared-up wheel drive system...  Don't some
companies make motorcycle blowers...


Has anyone noticed that the good old days of mowers are gone, now that the
new mowers say "unleaded fuel only"?


Ed Mulligan
"Feared by lawns everywhere"

----------
Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 01:08:01 1992
Subject: Re: Lawnmowers with >500hp...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>If you really want to tach it up, remove the blade.  It screams then!

yeah but the grass just laughs at the machine.

>Has anyone ever seen lumberjack events?  People actually do hotrod chainsaws
>for competition!

yes. My mentor and teacher of the tuning art used to be heavily involved
with this sport.  His saw was one of the old McCollough gear drives.
The engine was 125 cc after the stroker crank.  Dual pumper carbs and
80% nitro.  An expansion chamber wound around the saw body.  He ran 
the thing in a suit and mask similar to the ones used by the old 
slingshot drivers.  A sharpening of the blade, using a super secret
angle and edge, lasted one 12 second run through a 6 ft dia log.

>I wonder if you could drive a supercharger (or modified turbo) from the 
>blade shaft, or the geared-up wheel drive system...  Don't some
>companies make motorcycle blowers...

I'll bet a Paxton supercharger could be adapted.  Wow!  A supercharged
weed whacker :-)

>Has anyone noticed that the good old days of mowers are gone, now that the
>new mowers say "unleaded fuel only"?

Or worse, what the safety nazis have done to add weight, decrease
performance and reduce cornering performance.  Anyone else a scofflaw
removing this crap?

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 01:30:54 1992
Subject: ANOTHER FI QUESTION...
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Do any of the FI systems manage both the spark advance and control
-> and the fuel metering?  It seems logical that the same unit that
-> sensed air mass and

 The GM unit on the later Corvette does; I'm pretty sure the ones on
"lesser" cars do as well.

 The Corvette runs off one of a selection of "maps", or preprogrammed
curves burned into the PROM.  As far as I can tell, GM figured the
least-emissions curves for various types of fuel, altitude, load, engine
temp, etc, and the car selects the closest map.  There's also a "block
learn" feature that builds up a "fudge factor" to zero the engine onto
the map more closely.

 On wide open throttle, the box goes from closed loop (watching the
oxygen sensor for stochiometric) to open loop (f*** the oxygen sensor),
and guesstimates the air/fuel ratio somewhat rich.  Maximum power is to
the rich side of stochiometric.  The box basically slams the spark all
the way forward and trusts the knock sensor for correction.  The 'vette
will chitter and chatter under acceleration as the timing wanders from
too fast to slow and back.
                                            

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 01:37:51 1992
Subject: Re: Lawnmowers with >500hp...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

	Talking about souped up chain saws and bringing the topic  
back to hot rods... I was watching ESPN one time, and saw one of  
those lumberjack competion.  Anyway, they got through all of the  
normal and semi-souped up chainsaw events, and came to the 'Unlimited  
ChainSaw' event.  A group of like 3-4 BIG men brought out a BIG  
chainsaw.  It turned out that the driving force behind the saw was a  
Chevy 327 cid motor.  Talk about power on that chainsaw... wow...   
They ripped through a 30" log in a few measly seconds...  I didn't  
catch all of the details of the monster saw, but it was enough to be  
very impressed... Anyway, thought you guys might like to know that...
 

Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------
		snyderre@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
"I was stopped by a police man the other day for speeding.
He said, "Didn't you know that the speed limit is 55 miles per hour?"
I said, "Yea, but I wasn't planning to be out that long."
---------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: snyderre@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 02:43:41 1992
Subject: RE: HEADERS FOR A SMALL B
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com

-> arent there) the bottom end. And of course a turbo set up would be
-> nice for the tall grass. I think the wife's hair dryer on a 100 foot
-> cord will work nicely as long as I don't run over the cord! And for

 Get this:  Schwitzer makes turbos for engines as small as 200 (two
hundred) cc.  A turbocharged Briggs & Stratton is certainly feasible.
                                                                                                      

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 10:49:15 1992
Subject: Re: GT-40
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Actually, there is a company that is quite well known for making bullet
> proof VW bus transaxles.  You can even get limited slip.  They even
> recommend in the article its ability to hold up to V8's.  The company is
> Trans-form  (215)435-2996.

I have one of their transmissions - it's in my hot-rod Beetle ('61 Sedan
with '71 SB engine, headers, dual Kadron carbs, Baja body). It was easy to
install, works like a charm. I don't know how  it would last with lots more
torque, but it runs fine now...


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@hpwarq.hp.com

----------
Posted by: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 10:49:37 1992
Subject: 1968 Cougar engine code
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>is any one out there familiar with the early cougar engine codes?
>I have a 1968 with a 8~~~X   vin.
>can't find a listing for an X engine
>the block in the trunk is a 427 ford HP SPEC. block has no 
>provision for a hydraulic cam, ie; lifter oil gallery is NOT drilled
>and there is a relief valve to vent oil from top-end.
>
>Millam E. Tackitt


I have the X code being a 390 Cu.In. 2 barrel for the '68 Mercury.

   Bill Drake   -   bill@ecn.purdue.edu

   47 Ford Coupe////454/AT/3:00//// the "Fat Rat"
   69 Camaro convertible////327/AT/2:73
   new addition - 73 Camaro LT

----------
Posted by: bill@ecn.purdue.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 10:59:35 1992
Subject: GT-40
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: kmwheeler@ualr.edu

-> 1)--Does anyone have experience with the quad Weber downdraft setup
-> for  V-8's?  Specifically 289/302.

 Gawd.  Practically everyone makes downdraft Weber setups for the
289/302.  CB Performance, Cannon, Inglese...  they should be able to
give you ballpark jetting recommendations right off the top of their
heads; the smallblock Ford is one of the most common downdraft
conversions.

-> 2)--How about a manual transaxle that would stand up to a tuned
-> 289/302?  My only experience with transaxles is VW's and my Renault
-> R10.  It
->    frightens me to think what a 302 would do to a Beetle tranny.

 Actually, some of the aftermarket VW transmissions would probably work
fairly well.  I've also seen quite a few 350-Chevy-powered 914 Porsches.
The original GT40s used an Italian box built by Colotti, later ones used
custom-built boxes with TopLoader internals.  I've seen clone GT40s
running the ZF boxes from Panteras, but those are hardly simple to find
either.  Zahnradfabrik Zeppelinwerke will sill sell you a brand new
transaxle just like the one in the Pantera.  ($$$)  When the subject of
transaxles came up a few weeks ago, someone suggested investigating
Audi.  You also have the option of adapting a Corvair box, though the
Saginaw internals aren't all that stout - the offroaders claim they're
weaker than the VW boxes.  You might also investigate purchasing a
Hewland transaxle unit.

-> 3)--Books with *in-depth* info on the GT-40's suspension, chassis,
-> etc.  No fluff.

 Sorry.  All I've seen have been picture books.

->  Or, how about just an excellent all round text on suspension design?

 There are several moderately useful books, but you'll have to put it
all together yourself.  Puhn's "How To Make Your Car Handle", Campbell's
"New Directions in Suspension Design", Norbye's "A Car and Its Wheels",
Costin & Phipps' "Racing and Sports Car Chassis Design", Terry & Baker's
"Racing Car Design and Development",  Puhn's "Brake Handbook",
Campbell's "The Sports Car",  Newcomb & Spurr's "Braking of Road
Vehicles", Carroll Smith's "Engineer to Win" and "Prepare to Win",
Petersen Publication's "Basic Chassis, Suspension, and Brakes", Giles'
"Steering, Suspension, and Tyres", Norbye's "Complete Handbook of Front
Wheel Drive Cars", Steve Smith's "Advanced Race Car Suspension
Development"  are all sitting on my shelf.

-> recipe for magic?  Cobras, Sunbeam Tigers, MGB V-8's, TR-8's, Jensen
-> Interceptors...

...AC 428 coupe, Nash-Healey, TVR 289, Rover 3500, Allard, Bristol V8...
                                                                                                                    

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 13:46:59 1992
Subject: RE: The beast...my two cents...
To: hotrod@dixie.com


> If you want to stay with the stock cam but increase lift, why not just
> add higher ratio rocker arms.  They are made by a number of different 
> companies, for different prices.  I just read a test that showed a decent
> increase in power on a Ford 302.  I _think_ the stock rocker arms on a
> Chevy SB are about 1.5:1 or so.  There are 1.6:1 available, and the Ford
> test used 1.7:1 rockers.  They're easier to change than a cam, too.

Which make and construction type were the Ford rockers?

Does anyone know if the roller rockers that several companies are making
nowadays _really_ do anything beneficial, other than providing a higher
ratio? Is the reduction in friction worth the extra cost? Or are these 
just something to use at the track only where the engine sees a lot of RPM's?

-- 
Derek Deeter                           derek_deeter@mentorg.com
Mentor Graphics Corp.
8005 S.W. Boeckman Rd.
Wilsonville, OR 97070-7777

----------
Posted by: derekd@apd.MENTORG.COM (Derek Deeter)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 14:50:48 1992
Subject: RE: The beast...my two cents...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

well...
the friction reduction between the roller tip and the valve stem top 
allows the valve to actuate with less side loading, so the valve guide 
and the valve stem last longer.
the friction reduction in the pivot area helps keep oil temperatures 
down.
the lift ratio is by far more accurate than stock rockers so cam 
timing accuracy is closer to what the manufacturer cuts the cam to.

BUT, if you are not willing to put out the bucks for some relativly
small benefits, get something like Competition Cams Magnum 
roller tip rockers. you get most of the benefits and the SMALL 
friction increase in the pivot area isn't significant.

roller rockers will get you a few more RPM's, but unless you are 
in an all-out effort this is probably un-noticable.

Millam E. Tackitt

----------
Posted by: met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam Tackitt)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 14:56:44 1992
Subject: Re: The beast...my two cents... 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>> If you want to stay with the stock cam but increase lift, why not just
>> add higher ratio rocker arms.  They are made by a number of different 
>> companies, for different prices.  I just read a test that showed a decent
>> increase in power on a Ford 302.  I _think_ the stock rocker arms on a
>> Chevy SB are about 1.5:1 or so.  There are 1.6:1 available, and the Ford
>> test used 1.7:1 rockers.  They're easier to change than a cam, too.

>Does anyone know if the roller rockers that several companies are making
>nowadays _really_ do anything beneficial, other than providing a higher
>ratio? Is the reduction in friction worth the extra cost? Or are these 
>just something to use at the track only where the engine sees a lot of RPM's?
>----------
>Posted by: derekd@apd.MENTORG.COM (Derek Deeter)

One of the advantages of a roler rocker is when they are used with a
high lift cam they tend to reduce the pressure placed on the valve guide
because of the long range of movement. As the rocker forces the valve
down it also slides across the top of the valve. This sliding causes
the valve to rock back and forth causing wear on the sides of the guides.
The roller affectively eliminates this sliding and forcing of the valves
intern reducing friction and wearing of the valve guides and the valves
them selves. Of course the real benefit is less friction, less power
lost, higher rpms! Every little bit helps and does eventually add up to
a winning combination! As far as being worth the cost, well it depends
on what you've got and how your gona run it. At the track with lots of
rpm's, yes I think so.

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From HOTROD@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 15:52:04 1992
Subject: The 1.7:1 rockers I spoke about...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I was referencing the May '92 issue of Super Ford.
"Some large gains were made here, with the addition of Motorsport's 1.7:1
ratio roller-tip, roller-trunion rocker arms.  By opening the valves faster and farther, these rockers cost just a whiff of torque down low, but built
substantial power at the very top of the engine's operating range.
At 5500rpm, for example, the rockers added 18.5 horsepower.  It looks like
the roller rockers are an excellent addition [to] any 5.0 engine."




Crane claims "up to 15 h.p. gain" with their aluminum, roller fulcrum, rocker 
arms.

Competition cams claims "12 extra horsepower from an otherwise stock 5.0l", alon
along with "extra torque".  The same article had a case history from a guy who
made it sound more like JATO boosters than rocker arms, but I was impressed.


Even taking all claims at the usual 75% truth, they sound (IMHO) like a good
hp/time to install deal.  I'll probably do it to my 5.0.  Whenever Ford gets around to delivering the thing.


I hope I haven't confused anyone .


Ed Mulligan

----------
Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 17:00:01 1992
Subject: RE: EPA & HEADERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>What I'm wondering is when will the Feds come out with a Clean Air Act
>that will ban the original engines in pre-emissions era cars.  I guess
>if that ever happens at least we can legally install the late model
>engine in our older cars.  

I don't think that will happen.  What would be likely is a requirement
that all street cars meet a minimum emission level.  This is actually
fairly easy to do.  For example, I have literature from a 
company named Car Sound Exhaust Systems, Inc.  They make a retrofit
emission control system that can be fit to any engine.  It consists
of one or two cats, a lambda sensor, an ECU, and an air purge valve.
It works by observing the engine speed via an ignition pickup and
pulse width modulating the air valve in order to keep Mr. Lambda
happy.  The air valve draws air from the air cleaner and meters it in
under the carb.  The assumption is that the engine will be rich under
normal conditions.  I am planning on writing it up fairly extensively
once I find out price and a few other things.  Phone: 714 858 5900.

>Actually I've been hoping that someone would
>start a car company using the best of the styling of the 50's, 60's and
>70's, but with modern internals.  It seems that all new cars today look
>like a Ford Taurus.

Already doing it.  There is a company in Detroit that is buying up 
50s and 60s cars, stripping them to the frame, installing a
Chevy 350 engine and TH400 tranny, installing modern running gear (disk
brakes and the like) and restoring the interior and body.  The car is
then sold as new with a warranty for ~$20k.  I forget the name but they
were written up in Car & Driver sometime in the last year.  I'm saving
my pennies for a 57 chevy or 40 ford :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 18:13:50 1992
Subject: Re: FI
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The Hotrod List writes:
> 
> >One more thing, how well does the Holley Pro Jection 4 work. Still too
> >expensive @ $900 but would love to try one some day. 20% fuel savings
> >on my SS is still only 2mpg but I would love to get this thing into
> >the 11's!
> 
> Like crap.  I have a Pro-Jection 2.  This is about what I've come to
> expect from Holly.  There is no input for temperature or MAP. 
> There is only throttle position input.  The controls, as they exist,
> cover only a very small range and highly interact with each other.
> You end up twiddling the knobs when the temperature or baro pressure
> changes a few percent.  It will easily flood the engine because
> the startup enrichment is non-adjustable.
> 
> One of my current projects is an 8051 replacement for the analog box.
> If my DS-5000 will ever come in... :-(  It will take inputs from
> water and air temperature and MAP and will be programmable from
> the PC.  Basically the mechanicals are OK but the electronics are
> garbage (done by MSD unfortunately.)
> 
> John
> 


did i hear you mention a while ago that your pro-jection 2 is on a
six?  Perhaps thats why it floods the thing-- isn't it meant for a
small eight?  my 350 needs all the fuel it can get on cold starts-- i
have never been able to flood it.  I could see the pro-jection 4 being
too much for anything where CID<=350...

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 18:30:42 1992
Subject: Re: FI
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>did i hear you mention a while ago that your pro-jection 2 is on a
>six?  Perhaps thats why it floods the thing-- isn't it meant for a
>small eight?  my 350 needs all the fuel it can get on cold starts-- i
>have never been able to flood it.  I could see the pro-jection 4 being
>too much for anything where CID<=350...

Yes.  A 2800 cc engine.  However because of the terrible intake
manifold design, it also takes a BUNCH of gas to start.  When I
had the 390 cfm holly on it, it required full hard choke (choke spring
wound up so the butterfly is tightly closed) if it cooled any at all.

The problem with the Pro-jection is it has no idea how hot the engine is.
The temperature sensor only serves to turn the "choke" off.  It gets
the same shot whether the engine is just barely warm or scorching hot.
I've found that if I hold the throttle wide open, triggering the 
"flood clearing" mode, it starts OK.  They knew of the problem as 
evidenced by them including the flood clearing mode.  But they let it 
pass.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 16 19:22:09 1992
Subject: Re:  Mustang Rear-ends
To: hotrod@dixie.com

if the top of the transmission has a bolt-on cover for access to the gears it
is a toploader, if it has ten (10) bolts holding the cover on it is a 4-speed.
repairing the differential yourself will require a few special tools and is
probably not a good thing to get into without someone who REALLY knows
what they are doing. The differential should be a 8" removable carrier type
so just remove the pumpkin and go to a junk yard to get a good one.
if you deal with a reputable yard they will sell you a unit that will
last for ~$75.00. get one with about a 3.25 ratio, this will give you some
more uuuumph and still retain gas mileage and topend. the specific year
of the replacement isn't critical as ford didn't change any thing except
the axle splines. take an axle along in order to verify that they are
compatable.

Millam E. Tackitt
 

----------
Posted by: met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam Tackitt)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 17 13:53:54 1992
Subject: Re: Re:  Mustang Rear-ends
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Remember that if it is infact a 8 inch, than all 8 inchers are 28 spline.
However if it is a 9 inch, then it can either be 28 spline or 31 spline.
You can tell what spline you have most of the time with this simple rule.
Any ford axle flange end with the center hub open(not solid) is a 28 spline.
All other Ford axles have a solid center hub on the flange and in the majority
of cases(95 %) they are 31 spline axles, however there are a very few which
are 28 spline.  Remember the open hub part of the center hub is always 28
spline. Also, your 31 spline came on your big block versions.  Mustang
Salvage of Tenessee Offers the laymans guide to spotting Ford rear ends
and Posi-tractions in the wrecking yard for a couple of bucks.  They 
advertise in HEMMINGS but youcan call them at 615 761-2933 and get your 
own copy. Then you will be smarter than any magazine guy and know with
confidence what you are looking for.  Good luck.
Mike Brattland

----------
Posted by: brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil (CDR Michael Brattland)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 17 14:52:31 1992
Subject: hotrodding FWD
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Now to start off I am not trying to start the standard RWD isbetter than FWD
arguements ( or vice versa). But it's a little hard to come up with small
light economical RWD cars for daily drivers. So for some of us that put in
100+ miles a day we are kind of stuck with FWD. Due to my own vices I am
stuck with Fords. 

The car of choice ended up being a Fiesta. (I had one). It's engine had a 
cracked head when I got it and I drove it for 60,000 miles adding water 
weekly. Now the engine is basically dead so its time to Rebuild/replace.
So I start pricing all the goodies to make it a nice strong engine, like
the formula ford head, cam, pistons, and all the other stuff. It looks like
I'll drop between $1600 and $2000 just to get about 120HP out of a 1600CC
engine. Not all that bad but I'd like a 5-speed also, That makes it difficult.

Well as it turns out while I was scrounging around I came across an Escort GT
that someone had politely rolled with only 45000 miles on it. So out comes
the tape measure. No sweat it will slide right in. so I bought the car for
$500. Out comes the fiesta motor and tranny and in goes the escort....
clunk.... oops measured wrong! Oh well nothing a torch and wire welder can't
fix......  After a month and a half roll of wire, all four sides of the
engine compartment have been streched. It fits. :-)

Now I have the engine and tranny in place, I guess I need front wheels.
The Escort Hubs, brakes, and drive axles do in and for a strut (did I 
mention that the car is 3" lower than stock) I used the Escort strut tube,
some Controlle cartrages for honda civic, (What can I say they were on the
shelf) the tops of the honda struts to hold them in, the honda springs
because they were only 4" in diameter, cut off to 250# per inch, and the
honda spring cups, with thw fiesta caps to mount it to the car. Hey it works.

So far I'm only into this for about $700. good thing I don't count my labor.

In a nutshell I have the Escort GT drivetrain in the fiesta, Including
the power rack and pinion steering (ofset to the right to clear the tranny)
stearing column, and all the emissions goodies so it will be legal.

Time for a test drive.  :-)

Well estimated 0-60 is 7-7.5 sec. not to bad for the commuter car.
The thing drives rather nice. and to my surprise the first tank of gas
gave me 39MPG. I have been averaging about 37 MPG. Now all I have to do is 
make it look good again.  :-)

Now for some questions.

Has anyone found a good source of info on fwd suspension tricks.
I lowered the swaybar mounts to gain anti dive. and it works great, except
for draging the swaybar on the ground. 

I'm going to rebuild the front suspension into a lower A arm with a floating`
sway bar. 

I'm looking for specs for the A arm rake angles to attain the best results.

Dave Williams mentioned a book called Norbye's "Complete Handbook of Front
Wheel Drive Cars".  Does this book do into the detail I'm looking for?

Any other good books on the subject? any suggestions.

Thanks for listening.

Brian Pimm

P.S. I prefer rear wheel drive.  ;-)

----------
Posted by: brianpi@tekig6.pen.tek.com (Brian D Pimm)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 17 13:48:53 1992
Subject: Re: Re:  Mustang Rear-ends
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Remember that if it is infact a 8 inch, than all 8 inchers are 28 spline.
However if it is a 9 inch, then it can either be 28 spline or 31 spline.
You can tell what spline you have most of the time with this simple rule.
Any ford axle flange end with the center hub open(not solid) is a 28 spline.
All other Ford axles have a solid center hub on the flange and in the majority
of cases(95 %) they are 31 spline axles, however there are a very few which
are 28 spline.  Remember the open hub part of the center hub is always 28
spline. Also, your 31 spline came on your big block versions.  Mustang
Salvage of Tenessee Offers the laymans guide to spotting Ford rear ends
and Posi-tractions in the wrecking yard for a couple of bucks.  They 
advertise in HEMMINGS but youcan call them at 615 761-2933 and get your 
own copy. Then you will be smarter than any magazine guy and know with
confidence what you are looking for.  Good luck.
Mike Brattland

----------
Posted by: brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil (CDR Michael Brattland)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 17 20:52:23 1992
Subject: Frankentruck Brake Summary - thanks for all who helped.
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Thanks for all the suggestions for the brakes on my 55 F100 project. 

I decided to go with the Tilton dual M/C setup. I bought their remote mount
that is set up with the correct balance bar assembly. I chose 7/8 inch M/C
for both front and rear brakes based on my calculations. What I did was creat
a spread-sheet using Excell that included the weights and corresponding location
of everything on the truck that I could think of. Some weights were probably off
but the total added to 4075 lbs. which should be close.  I was then able to put
in variables such as the radius of the brake rotors and the hydraulic piston
areas, brake pad and tire friction coefficients, and just about any other varibale

A good example of what this 'program' did is detailed in Fred Puhn's Brake hand
book.  Any way I could enter in say a .5 g stop and see how much weight transfer
to the front of the truck and the program would calculate the necessary hydraulic
force needed in the front and rear lines based on a specific pedal ratio and
M/C combination that I entered.  I could then put loads into the back of the
truck and see how the variables changed.  Actually its pretty simple to see
from this quick program what sizes I needed once I had chosen the disks and
rotors.  

One interesting aside from all this is I found out that placing the motor and
trani 10 inches further back and 3 inches lower only transfered about 100 lbs.
from front to rear wheels. So it might not be worth cutting into the firewall
after all.   

I drilled my stock pedal on the brake side to change the ratio to 7.2 to 1
and according to my calculations I should only need to apply 120 lbs. force on
the pedal for a .9 G stop. Which is what I would consider to be the practical
limit of the tires I'm using.   

One concern of mine was pedal travel and I tried to calculate the fluid flow
due to caliper flex, piston travel, and hose and line expansion.  I still do
not have any way to estimate what the proportioning valve will do in terms of
fluid flow, but I have read that they increase pedal travel so I'm assuming
its a pretty big affect.  I would try to get away without one, but since I
still have this dumb idea to use my truck as a truck, I'm going to install
one of tiltons seven position proportioning valves.  One nice thing about the
tilton m/c kits is that they come with all the different resevoirs...small..
big.. and remote.  I plan to mount the m/c on the frame where the old ford
one was but perhaps a little further back so that I can put them up in the cab
behind the seat by using the remote filler. This is where the proportioning
valve will be place also.  

Total cost .... 2 Tilton M/C  $60 each or $120  comes with everything needed
             dual remote mount and balance bar assembly    $120
             proportioning valve            $70

                                or $310

There are so many options ...  I could have gone with any number of conversion
kits  ranging from remote boosters, mustang II, hydraulic boosters, etc.

I ruled out the remote booster since I could not run two separate brake systems
one each for front and rear ... I ruled out the vac. boosters since I didn't
know if I would turbo, or supercharge my motor at a later date.  And I didn't
like the hydraulic ones because of all the messy hoses lines and extra cost.

I am hoping to gain brake pedal feel by not choosing to go with a power booster
also. This all comes at a sacrifice though... stopping 4-5 thousand pounds 
unassisted isn't going to be easy for everyone, and the pedal travel will be
greater since I had to choose a smaller m/c bore size in both front and rear
m/c's.  I'm guessing that it will move about 3 inches at full stop.  Now I know
why people like to use small tubing (3/16) .... it stretches less under pressure
since the forces generated on it are less.   

Here is another thing I calculated ... Max temp rise in rotors from 100mph stop
470 degrees f. on the front disks.  Well, I'm going to be doing that A lot so 
I'm going to duct the front rotors.

Anyway for those of you that missed all this posting last months....
The front is a chrysler torsion bar suspension now with 12 inch vented rotors.
Calipers came from 78 plymouth fury  (2.75 inch single piston) . The rear is
a nine inch ford with 11 inch vented rotors and ford lsc calipers (1.75 single
piston calipers.)   

I would have avoided the single piston calipers because of the deflection and
the bad wear due to the floating design, but they were cheap and fit easily
on my application.

I'm going to try and get away without using a residual pressure valve in the
m/c's but if I have problems due to the low mounting of the m/c on the frame
then I'll install a 2 lb. one. The tilton kit came with one but I can't remember
the rating.

I'll be routing the lines and hoses soon, and I hope that goes easily. I plan
to use earl's stuff for the flexible parts and who know's what for the lines
but it will be steel anyway.


anyway, hope this was not a waste of bandwidth, but I wanted to let all those
that helped me know what I had decided to do.

eric.

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 17 21:24:30 1992
Subject: torsion bars
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Hi, 

The torsion bars I pulled from the junk yard came from a '76 cordoba big block

they seem to be slightly bent about a foot from the front sockets, both by the
same amount.  Is this normal? It doesn't seem right but...  I was wondering
if I should spend the $150 each to get the 1.15 inch diameter aftermarket ones
to get a stiffer front.  Does anyone know what the rating should be for the
ones that came from the cordoba?  My trucks got to be a little heavier ...
 
what do people think?
eric.

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 19 01:48:42 1992
Subject: Rear ends again
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 Is the mid/late '70's Cadillac Seville rear any good? There's a junkyard
a ways north of here with a couple, supposedly they have discs all 
around and limited slip, and the body was a variant of the Chevy
Malibu so it might work for my car. Anybody know of what to expect here?
Guy sez about $250 I-pull, $300 he-pull for the rear and the front wheels/
brakes and the master cylinder. Not a super deal and a bit of a drive too,
so I don't want to go just to look...

----------
Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 19 03:51:07 1992
Subject: Re: HEADERS FOR A SMALL B
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Ya ya and then don't forget some chrome mags, and Fiberglas body panels.
> some nice wide slicks, 4-wheel discs, Monster tach, and a Hurst 4-speed 
> shifter, Ford 9-inch, forget the Holley 600 how about twin 600 AFBs with
> Larrys ram-air idea, and and.... oops, guess I got a little carried away,
> sorry. =8^)
> 
Actually, probably the neatest ram air kit I saw was for an air-cooled
VW that ducted the fan outlets that normally blew air past the heat
exchangers in the exaust system, into the carb!!!  A neat little $10
item to pick up 10 HP!  Of course you loose the air filer, and any crap
the fan happens to suck in, gets sucked into the motor...OOOPPS, those
fans are amazinly strong too!

-Larry Harris-                |  '86 Mustang lx 5.0 notchback
lharris@hubcap.clemson.edu    |  Meyer's Tow'd Dune Buggy
lharris@clemson.bitnet        |  OS-9, a leaner meaner UNIX
Clemson Computer Engineering  |  RUSH, YES, R.E.M, The Who

----------
Posted by: lharris@hubcap.clemson.edu (Larry Harris)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 19 11:27:03 1992
Subject: RE: HEADERS FOR A SMALL B
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 My brother's buddy John (the guy with the 455 Firebird who lives down
the street) gave me a call this morning around 11:30.  He had a weird
noise, sounded like a vacuum leak.  I ambled down there, he fired it up,
and it sounded bloody 'orrible.  I sprayed soapy water around the carb
bases and manifold/head junction with no sign anything was sucking air.
The noise was incredible - we were shouting over it.  On the odd thought
it might be an alternator bearing we disconnected all the belts (power
steering, water pump, alternator).  No help.  We pulled the carbs, made
sure the gaskets didn't leave any air passages open, changed the base
gaskets, no help. Pulled the carbs, changed the adapter plate gaskets
(the Offy 2x4 is drilled for Carter AFBs, you need adapters for the
Holleys. Jammed a piece of heater hose in my ear and stethoscoped
around, but the noise was too loud to really trace.

 On the off-chance the manifold might have cracked again, we yanked the
intake, which of course ate the intake gaskets.  No problem, all
surfaces dead-true.  Unfortunately John had a stack of Pontiac intake
gaskets, but the exhaust heat crossover passages on the 7K3 castings are
oddball and the standard gaskets will leak when used with the 7K3s and
Offy manifold.  I got my tin snips and cut the centers out, then cut
pieces of the old gasket, and made three-piece gaskets.  Worked like
gangbusters, and we were darned sure there were no leaks.  SCREEEEEEE.
We're standing around looking at each other.  Duh?  Yanked the
distributor.  Maybe the shaft was binding or the gears were eating the
cam or something - it sounded that bad.  Distributor turned freely, but
there was no carbon button in the cap, which was carbon tracked.  The
distributor had less than an hour on it.  We took a trip to Little Rock
(20 miles each way) to get a new Mallory cap and rotor.  Argh.  Fired it
up.  SCREEEEEEE.  I suggest John's car is infected with evil spirits,
and offer to exorcise them with my .357.  John opined I'd need at least
a .44 for a big block, at which time his wife brought out plates of
steamed rice and crabs.  Big ugly suckers maybe 6 inches around.  John
used a claw hammer to open his up; I decided it wasn't worth the effort
and ate some rice.

 Pulled the carbs off AGAIN.  Checked the adapters and carb baseplates
AGAIN with my machinist's rule.  Stared at each other some more.  John
burped Heineken and crab, and I wondered if the noise was from the
venturis or something; maybe the butterflies were closed *just so* and
whistling.  John suggested trying the pair of AFBs he was keeping for my
brother.  I suggested since the engine hadn't self destructed already
(did I mention the noise was HORRIBLE?) maybe we should set the float
levels.  Pulled the air cleaners, and the rear carb is swimming in gas.
Pulled the dribble plug on the side of the carb and gas ran everywhere.
Hmm.  Setting the floats on the small Holleys is a pain because both
float bowls are connected by a tube; probably only one needle valve was
out of adjustment, but no way to tell which one.  You adjust the float
level on a Holley by screwing the entire needle valve assembly up and
down from the outside, rather than bending a tang on the float.  We
noodled out the proper process was to screw the back float WAY down,
adjust the front float to proper dribble height, then adjust the back
float up.  The front was the opposite - both floats were a quarter inch
or so low.  So much for "ready to run out of the box".

 Somewhere during all this John dropped something on the intake and
jammed his hand between the carbs to get it.  The SCREEEEEE stopped,
blessed silence, or as much as you'll get with your head stuck under the
hood of a Firebird with a high compression big block, headers, and dual
quads.  John cooked his hand a bit and determined the front carburetor
to manifold gasket - a NEW gasket - was flittering like one of those
children's whistles.  You know, the little tube with the reed in it?
So we pull the carbs back off again, we've lost track of how many times
by now, but we're wondering how long the threads on the studs are going
to last.  Put the straightedge back on everything.  Still looks fine.
In a fit of annoyance I turn the carb adapter around the "wrong" way
and put the carb back on.  Silence.  AAARGH!

 Tomorrow we'll hook the tach/dwell meter and vacuum guage up and set
the idle - on BOTH carbs - and all four idle richness screws.  Ought to
be just oodles of fun.  Then... we go for a RIDE! HAHAHAHAAAAAAAA....

 Next week there's an autocross and I nearly have John talked into it.
He's a drag race type, but it's 70 miles to the nearest (unsanctioned,
yet) track.  I pointed out his '72 'bird is lighter than the '77-'81
models that often run since it has no impact bumpers, the 455 doesn't
weigh any more than a 350 Pontiac, he already has the WS6 bars front and
back and a 3.25 posi, so why not?  "Here, John.  Think of it as two
dozen holeshots with some corners between them."  "Oh... it's different
when you put it that way..."
                                  

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 19 12:24:46 1992
Subject: REAR ENDS AGAIN
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)

-> Is the mid/late '70's Cadillac Seville rear any good? There's a
-> junkyard a ways north of here with a couple, supposedly they have
-> discs all around and limited slip, and the body was a variant of the
-> Chevy Malibu so it might work for my car. Anybody know of what to
-> expect here?

 Wait a sec - wasn't the Seville based on the Nova/Omega/Ventura?  Unit
body with plastic side skirts under the doors to hide the subframe
rails?

 I think it's a generic corporate 10-bolt rear.  You can compare it to
others in the yard to make sure.  Make sure they don't cut the parking
brake cables and brake line - you might need them.
                                                          

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 19 13:23:23 1992
Subject: Re: octane ratings
To: hotrod@dixie.com

In article  hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>I was having a discussion with someone about fuel burning
>temperatures, and they said that the higher the octane, the _cooler_
>the burn temp.  I thought it was the other way around...  can someone
>clarify this for me?

Higher octane gas burns slower and has fewer BTU per pound, so yeah,
it burns cooler in the same engine. So now you bump the compression
up and the burn rate comes back up and the efficiency goes up and
the power goes up....wheeee...and the gas mileage goes down as you
leadfoot around town.

Gary

----------
Posted by: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sun Apr 19 13:33:46 1992
Subject: Re: Roller Rockers 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


The one drawback to roller rocker kits for the small block Chevy is
inadequate lubrication of the pivots. The ball rockers Chevy uses
are light and designed to work with minimal lubrication trapped in
the grooved balls. The rollers are heavier and need a constant supply 
of oil to the bearings to keep from seizing. Chevy Off Road recomends 
that if you want to go with rollers, you go to a pressure lubricated 
rocker shaft like on the Chrysler Hemi. Somebody makes a kit, it's 
expensive and requires head machining.

Gary

----------
Posted by: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 00:23:25 1992
Subject: RE: ROLLER ROCKERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)

-> inadequate lubrication of the pivots. The ball rockers Chevy uses are
-> light and designed to work with minimal lubrication trapped in the
-> grooved balls. The rollers are heavier and need a constant supply of
-> oil to the bearings to keep from seizing. Chevy Off Road recomends
-> that if you want to go with rollers, you go to a pressure lubricated
-> rocker shaft like on the Chrysler Hemi.

 I think "Chevy Off Road" has been listening to someone's advertising
hype.  Rolling-element bearings require minimal lubrication.  Just the
dribble from Chevy pushrods is far more than they need, one reason why
many engine builders restrict the pushrods or oil galleries.

 Far from needing pressure lubrication, my Timken and New Departure
bearing design manuals specifically warn against excessive oiling; they
recommend oil mist.

 Chevy's ball pivot has always been a high-friction design, more so than
Chrysler-type shaft pivots.  If you spray some Dykem in the rocker and
wiggle the ball around, you'll see the actual contact is usually a
narrow band.  Seems GM has troubles getting the ball sockets round.
Oh, well.
                                                                                           

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 09:47:26 1992
Subject: Re: ROLLER ROCKERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Speaking from personal experience and a good buddy's. Both of us run  
Crane roller rockers, his 1.5 ratio on a 327 and me 1.6 on my AMC  
401. Neither one of us has had problems. My buddy bought his in 1981  
and runs them to death in his 64 Vette which is an 11 second car in  
street trim. He has lots of miles on them due to the fact he drives  
the car from the first thaw until the first snow back in  
MASSHOLECHUSETTS. On the other hand.... He has trashed many a pushrod  
and even chucked a lifter once and limped home on seven cylinders.

----------
Posted by: scol@scottsdale.az.stratus.com (Scott Colbath)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 17 23:43:07 1992
Subject: HOTRODDING FWD
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: brianpi@tekig6.pen.tek.com (Brian D Pimm)

-> The car of choice ended up being a Fiesta. (I had one).
...
-> Well as it turns out while I was scrounging around I came across an
-> Escort GT

 Ford of England beat you to it - they've had the CVH engine in the Brit
Fiestas for a couple of years.  Nyaah nyaah.    I think they
altered some of the sheetmetal as a running change, though.

-> I'm going to rebuild the front suspension into a lower A arm with a
-> floating` sway bar.
-> I'm looking for specs for the A arm rake angles to attain the best
-> results.

 Unless you're correcting for some other deficiency, horizontal should
work best.  Most of the skewing and weirdness in production car front
ends is designed to induce understeer at any cost.  God help the rear
should ever step out.  When in doubt, design for neutral.
  Your major problem is to make sure you spread the load out over a wide
area - unit bodies are designed to take point loads from certain
carefully designed hardpoints.  I had a number of Panhard rods fatigue
metal around the weld areas and come loose that way.  I'd recommend
welding your lower A-arm pivots to heavy plate or tubing, then bolting
that to the chassis with load spreading plates. *Strength* is no problem
with playing with unibody suspension points - watch for *fatigue*.  If
there's any chance at all the new load pickup will chafe or flex the
body, it'll break out a section in no time.  If you're good at origami
and sheetmetal welding you can make your own box section pickups.  I've
done it to make motor mounts for a Ford-powered RX7, they looked very
nice, but the welder bitched and moaned.  Also, if the car's body is
heavily galvanized it will make it difficult to get a strong weld.

-> Dave Williams mentioned a book called Norbye's "Complete
-> Handbook of Front Wheel Drive Cars".  Does this book do into the
-> detail I'm looking for?

 Actually, the book has a bit on that and quite a bit of weird esoteric
bits of data I've never seen anywhere else.  My copy was only eight
bucks or so from TAB Books (Blue Ridge Summit PA - that's their entire
address!) a few years ago.  Well, maybe ten years ago.

-> Any other good books on the subject? any suggestions.

 I posted a list of sorts in a message yesterday.  Is that prompt
enough?

-> Thanks for listening.

 Hey, no problem!  Now let me tell you about the time - AARGH!
[several hundred lines of irrelevant drivel mercifully deleted]
                                                                      

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 13:48:32 1992
Subject: Re: octane ratings
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I have acess to 135 octane fuel for $2.15 per gallon.  if I were to
>run this in my car (at the track only, of course) would it go to waste
>on a 10.5:1 compression ratio? or would it make any improvement over
>105 octane at all?

Thoroughly wasted.  You can gain some benefit with higher octane fuel
by advancing the timing.  However you quickly reach a point where
your gains are offset by the thermodynamic losses of compressing 
already burning mix.  More compression is the way to go but even
there you have to be careful because lots of compression can sometimes
leave a chamber with so much squish that ignition is poor and turbulence
is actually impeded resulting in poor flame travel (low power).

BTW, what brand fuel is that?  Never see that hi octane before.  
I'd like to get some and play with it.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 15:28:49 1992
Subject: Re: ROLLER ROCKERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

In article <1n4jsg=@dixie.com> hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>
> Chevy's ball pivot has always been a high-friction design, more so than
>Chrysler-type shaft pivots.  If you spray some Dykem in the rocker and
>wiggle the ball around, you'll see the actual contact is usually a
>narrow band.  Seems GM has troubles getting the ball sockets round.
>Oh, well.

No, that's actually what's intended. The smaller the surface in 
contact, the less the total friction. A knife edge pivot would
be the ultimate in this direction.

Gary

----------
Posted by: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 15:48:28 1992
Subject: Propane power
To: hotrod@dixie.com


There was a thread on this (as if you didn't see it yerselves) and it got
me to wondering about going dual-fuel on the Skylark. Anybody into propane?
I'd have about 10.2:1 compression and am wondering if it would be too 
doggy (<300HP) :<{)=  or just stoopid, or maybe a worthwhile thing to do.
Lots of propane stations down here, tho they mainly want to fill those
gas grill tanks by weight, not cars. I figure I'll be near the upper range
of pump gas and the lower end of propane, compression-wise. The 430 is
supposed to run at 2BTDC advance on premium, so I expect to have to buy
toluene in bulk or something to be happy with liquid fuel.

Unrelated idea:

Anybody experiment with nitromethane in street vehicles? Does it mess up
the octane badly? It seems like it'd be almost mixture-neutral and
could give you a nice bump-up in power as long as you were built for it 
and didn't get too crazy. They sell the stuff (not too cheap) for model
airplanes in gallons, mixed with methanol and castor oil (optional). I 
think a gallon of 75% goes for about $40 (maybe more now). That ought
to be better than running a nitrous bottle in terms of time at boost
per dollar. If you can dump it in your tank (maybe with some other
alcohol or aromatic to compensate mixture and octane) or have a small
switchover tank of the "good stuff", that'd be interesting. Any 
experiences with this? Anybody running top fuel in a street machine?

----------
Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 17:22:58 1992
Subject: Hotrodding FWD
To: hotrod@dixie.com



>
>-> I'm going to rebuild the front suspension into a lower A arm with a
>-> floating` sway bar.
>-> I'm looking for specs for the A arm rake angles to attain the best
>-> results.
>
>Unless you're correcting for some other deficiency, horizontal should
>work best.  Most of the skewing and weirdness in production car front
>ends is designed to induce understeer at any cost.  God help the rear
>should ever step out.  When in doubt, design for neutral.

In Frontwheel drive ford always seems to do this with about 2 degrees 
of positive camber.  But you are right, I am trying to correct a deficiency.
Ever watch a fwd with some power try to come out of the hole, They do a 
great job of transfering the weight right to the back wheels, then they 
do a nice impression of a smoke generator.

The thing I'm trying to do is adjust the antidive to overcome some of the 
weight transfer. To do this I'm changing the angle that the wheel moves
when they go thruogh their travel. If you look at the side of the car,
when the wheel moves up into the fender, I have it moving forward in the car also.
I think I have about 10 degrees of rake in the lower control arm.

Now picture the wheel movement under hard acceleration, the wheel will
be trying to go forward in the car. For the weight to transfer to the rear
the front of the car needs to rise which would make the wheel move back
in relation to the car. The forward pull of the wheel would make this very 
difficult. So by changing this angle you can control the lift and dive of the
fornt end during acceleration and braking. The secret is to come up with a 
comprimise that gives you good acceleration and braking without distroying the 
ride.  The more rake you have the worse the ride.

Hopefully someone else has done the hard part and all I have to do is read their
book to figure the best angles.



>Your major problem is to make sure you spread the load out over a wide
>area - unit bodies are designed to take point loads from certain
>carefully designed hardpoints.  I had a number of Panhard rods fatigue
>metal around the weld areas and come loose that way.  I'd recommend
>welding your lower A-arm pivots to heavy plate or tubing, then bolting
>that to the chassis with load spreading plates. *Strength* is no problem
>with playing with unibody suspension points - watch for *fatigue*.  If
>there's any chance at all the new load pickup will chafe or flex the
>body, it'll break out a section in no time.  If you're good at origami
>and sheetmetal welding you can make your own box section pickups.  I've
>done it to make motor mounts for a Ford-powered RX7, they looked very
>nice, but the welder bitched and moaned.  Also, if the car's body is
>heavily galvanized it will make it difficult to get a strong weld.
>
I was planning to build a tubing subframe to tie the hole front end togeather.
>
 >Actually, the book has a bit on that and quite a bit of weird esoteric
>bits of data I've never seen anywhere else.  My copy was only eight
>bucks or so from TAB Books (Blue Ridge Summit PA - that's their entire
>address!) a few years ago.  Well, maybe ten years ago.
>
Can you get the ISBN number for me? I'll try and locate it here locally.

 >I posted a list of sorts in a message yesterday.  Is that prompt
>enough?
>
Yea thats what prompted my posting.

>
>----------
>Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
>
>
Brian

----------
Posted by: brianpi@tekig6.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 18:30:30 1992
Subject: Ring gear quandry
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Well, after trying several junk yards locally, and two dealerships, I am 
convinced that detroit's primary purpose in building cars is to screw the 
home mechanic, without vaseline, and using #4 sandpaper.

I'm out to find a ring/pinion set that to replace my 2.76 dog rear end.
I call the dealership and ask, and the ring/pinion set alone runs somewhere 
between $350 and $400.  Another $300 to put it in.  The junkyards around 
here want about $200 for a complete rear end, but in that respect I run a 
high risk of having a howling problem in the rear axle.  I don't mind howl 
on the busses at work (busses are supposed to howl!), but I don't want it 
on my daily driver.  Are there any alternatives to this approach, or do I 
need to look around at a few more junkyards?  I don't want to sink that 
much money, because I could go spend that much on a new truck, and I don't 
want to do that either....

-blaine

----------
Posted by: BNH5940@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU (The Midnight Shadow)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 18:49:58 1992
Subject: Reversion?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 Hi all-

    Now that my Olds is FINALLY back on the road, I need an answer to a 
question:

    After breaking in the motor ('bout 250 miles local driving), I took it 
on a 300 mile road trip.  Now that it's here, it's got less power, but the
mileage is still good (12-15 around town, 20-25 highway).  I replaced the 
points, cleaned/regapped the plugs (normal tan/white color), adjusted the 
carb mixture.  I noticed the the area of the carb below the choke plate was 
black.  Carb cleaner sovled that.  

    Now I recall hearing that that blackness means reversion, generally 
indicating slipped timing chain, or sticking/burned intake valves.  

Any thoughts?

  tech:
     71 350 olds, fresh rebuild (all new, including timing chain and distribut),  4 bbl carter AFB, rebuilt.  Stock (9:1?) compression, running 90 octane,
stock replacement cam.  

----->  Bob

p.s.- Oh yeah, I did check the timing and advance. Works fine (set 8 deg BTDC,
total advance about 32 deg.

----------
Posted by: ""Robert A. Valentine"" 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 19:23:10 1992
Subject: ring gears
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I was just looking through my Currie Enterprises catalog, and they want
about $1600 for a complete rearend.  Their 'third members' are about $600, and
Ring and Pinion sets run from around $75 to almost $200, depending on ratio
(2.80:1=$75, 4.63:1=$190).  These are for ford rearends, I dont know what
kind you are looking for.
-Bob

----------
Posted by: Bob Cunningham 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 20 20:28:03 1992
Subject: Re: Propane power
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>There was a thread on this (as if you didn't see it yerselves) and it got
>me to wondering about going dual-fuel on the Skylark. Anybody into propane?
>I'd have about 10.2:1 compression and am wondering if it would be too 
>doggy (<300HP) :<{)=  or just stoopid, or maybe a worthwhile thing to do.
>Lots of propane stations down here, tho they mainly want to fill those
>gas grill tanks by weight, not cars. I figure I'll be near the upper range
>of pump gas and the lower end of propane, compression-wise. The 430 is
>supposed to run at 2BTDC advance on premium, so I expect to have to buy
>toluene in bulk or something to be happy with liquid fuel.

Dual fuel is a lost cause.  It's the worst of both worlds.  I used to 
own a compressed gas and welding supply wholesaler where we also sold
propane and did conversions.  Propane is a GREAT motor fuel IF you 
build a propane engine.   Gas engines running on propane perform
poorly and get bad mileage.  If you've got a ready supply of propane,
I highly recommend it.  It's just like having good old Sunoco 260 
gasoline or better but without all the problems.  No vapor locking,
easy starting, lots of power.  Propane really makes a turbo/supercharged
engine scream.

>Anybody experiment with nitromethane in street vehicles? Does it mess up
>the octane badly? It seems like it'd be almost mixture-neutral and
>could give you a nice bump-up in power as long as you were built for it 
>and didn't get too crazy. They sell the stuff (not too cheap) for model
>airplanes in gallons, mixed with methanol and castor oil (optional). I 
>think a gallon of 75% goes for about $40 (maybe more now). That ought
>to be better than running a nitrous bottle in terms of time at boost
>per dollar. If you can dump it in your tank (maybe with some other
>alcohol or aromatic to compensate mixture and octane) or have a small
>switchover tank of the "good stuff", that'd be interesting. Any 
>experiences with this? Anybody running top fuel in a street machine?

Nitro is currently running from $30 to $50 a gallon depending on 
where you buy it and in what quantity.  Forget the airplane fuel, get
the pure stuff if you want to play with it.  For a whole variety of
reasons, some of which I'll list below, street nitro is not a good 
idea.

First a bit about nitro.  There are lots of myths about nitro, most of 
which are false.  First off, nitro is fairly resistant to detonation.
"Octane" is really a misnomer when applied to nitro because 
the detonation process is fundimentally different.  This confusion is
what confuses people.  In a fuel/air (such as gasoline) engine, the 
detonation process is not really detonation as used in the classical
explosives sense.  When a detonation event occurs, burn waves originate
from several places in the combustion chamber at once and converge.
The burn rate is faster than normal combustion but it is still a burn.
Nitro, being a true explosive, will detonate in a classical explosives
sense.  That is, a bulk decomposition takes place with the propagation
rate measured in thousands of feet per second.  The high detonation
rate coupled with the higher energy content of the mix means that 
when nitro does detonate, spare engine parts almost always result.

Nitro has a fairly high detonation sensitivity.  Detonation sensitivity
is a term of art that has a fairly prosaic definition ("Internal Combustion
Engines", Obert) but in this case understand it to mean that small changes
in conditions (temperature, air pressure, advance, etc) can cause the level
of detonation to change radically.  This makes hairy edge (or sloppy) 
tuning a practice that again produces spare engine parts fairly frequently.

Nitro burns fairly slowly, something NOT related the ability to resist
detonation.  This means lots of spark advance and because the mix is 
heavy and wet, lots of spark energy.  A hang-fire, where the ignition is
just strong enough to light the fire but the fireball is small enough
that it hangs around the plug for a few microseconds,  is a sure-fire
way to achieve detonation and spare parts :-)

Nitro is an excellent solvent for a wide variety of materials including
most rubbers.  This means no  rubber in the fuel system and short lives
for rubber in the engine such as seals.  I learned this lesson the
hard way.  

Nitro along with its decomposition products, will combine with motor
oil and form high explosive.  You can always tell a novice fuelie
because sooner or later he will disregard the requirement to change
motor oil before each event.  The result is the first thing that 
happens during cranking is a head separated from the block.  Or worse.

Nitro is itself unstable and can turn explosive.  Racing nitro contains
inhibitors and an indicator that changes color when the nitro begins
to decompose and become unstable.  The problem is the indicator 
tells you you've now got a bomb on your hands.  

Nitro is easily absorbed through the skin and has an effect similar to
nitroglycerin.  You ain't never had a headache until you've had a nitro
headache.

Nitro changes density with temperature.  That's why you see the top 
fuel guys messing around with the hydrometers (glass floats, usually
in a graduated cylinder, calibrated in specific gravity.)  Nitro
must be mixed for the temperature at hand.

IF you're getting the idea that nitro in a street engine is a bad idea
you'd be right.  Low percentages of nitro are not too bad but you 
don't get much from it.  Run enough to get a kick in the ass and 
you've entered into the area where you can't approach it casually
anymore.  

That's why  nitrous has become so popular.  Just about the 
same street bang but without the worries and lots less cost.
Nitrous, if you buy it right, is very inexpensive.  DON'T buy it
from the hotrod shop.  You're paying another markup.  Go to a 
welding or industrial gas supplier and buy it in 380 cu ft cylinders.
You'll have to make an initial investment in some high pressure hoses
and fittings in order to do the transfers to your car cylinder but it
is quickly repaid.  Be sure to specify industrial grade gas or you'll
pay a medical markup.

While we're at it, I'll mention that because our good old Uncle Sugar
classifies nitrous as a drug, you may get some funny looks when you
try to buy nitrous.  As is typical when the guv'mt tries to regulate
personal behavior, the regulations are confusing and conflicting.
If you want to buy nitrous as a drug, you must have a prescription.
If you want to buy it as an industrial gas, you do not.  If you're a
hotrodder or a restraunt needing nitrous to charge whipped cream
dispensers, you can buy it without problem.  However, the federalies
put the burden of proof on the dealer.  If the dealer has reason
to believe (or should have had reason to believe, they always get you with
that.) the real intent of an industrial purchase is medical or for 
abuse, he cannot make the sale.  Thus, if you make a wisecrack about
the big nitrous party while buying a cylinder for your hotrod, the 
dealer will put it back on the shelf and refuse to sell to you.
Similarly if you come in looking like a 60s refugee with a roach clip
hanging from your neck, driving a clapped out Vega, don't look to
be able to make the purchase.  The FDA nazis try to entrap dealers
with setups so most dealers take it quite seriously.  Don't be 
surprised if the dealer asks to see your nitrous setup the first time
or two.

NOS and some others try to work around this by selling "denatured"
nitrous that contains some sulfur dioxide which supposedly makes it
impossible to sniff.  That the SO2 can be easily filtered out
by bubbling it through a solution of sodium hydroxide (lye) is not
considered (oops did I let a secret out? :_)  Glass wool in the 
solution helps keep the gas in contact with the solution long enough 
for complete absorption to occur.)  As usual, we get to pay the 
penalty for Big Brother in the form of inconvenience and higher prices.
Plus the SO2 under the right conditions can cause corrosion in your
engine.

Give laughing gas a shot.  It'll make you grin from ear to ear.
Even if you only let your engine sniff it :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 21 01:00:21 1992
Subject: Re: VW FAN INDUCTION
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Actually, probably the neatest ram air kit I saw was for an air-cooled
> VW that ducted the fan outlets that normally blew air past the heat
> exchangers in the exaust system, into the carb!!!  A neat little $10
> item to pick up 10 HP!  Of course you loose the air filer, and any crap
> the fan happens to suck in, gets sucked into the motor...OOOPPS, those
> fans are amazinly strong too!
> 
> Posted by: lharris@hubcap.clemson.edu (Larry Harris)
> 

Yeah, it would pick up about 5 Hp on a stock 1600, but the carb would
flood at idle or even part trottle for that matter. Unless your just going
to start the car and imediately drag it, you'd be in trouble.
Hot VW's did this in an article a few years ago; that's where i got the
info.

>DAVE (johnson@WRS.COM)


----------
Posted by: uunet!yuba.wrs.com!johnson (David Johnson)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 21 01:00:24 1992
Subject: RE: Auto-Xing a firebird
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Well you could think of it like that, but you'd be missing out.

I's like to encourage everyone out there to *try* an autocross.

It takes a lot more than just being good at "squeesing the light.'
I used to be the diehard drag racer; with my '72 'Ponco' Le Mans            
convertible with one of the very few factory installed 400 cubic incher
mated to a turbohydra...400, and AC no less! (shure these were all options,
but who cared about options when the GTO was *the* car to get-even though
you couldn't even buy a convertible GTO in '72... but that's anouther story)
Shure, my ride weighed in at 4200 lbs (WOW!!!), but it was still fun.    

Then a friend talked me into going to an auto-X school with him. It was
put on By the BMW club here in the S.F. Bay Area. I tooled out in my
Pontiac, ready to go beat the world. Needless to say, i was gravely         
disappointed when *every* car out there ( including bone stock 2002's
which i thought were one of the ugliest cars in the world at that time)
>From there on after, I was hooked! I bought some Koni adjustable shocks,
Suspension Techniques anti-roll bars (which worked extremely well) and
replaced the bicycle sized tires in the front with the widest rubber I
could stuff into the fender wells. It made a GIANT improvement, but i
soon realized that a 4200 lb car was not going to do the trick (or a
3000 lb car for that matter) and i soon joined the ranks of other BMW
club members as the proud owner of one of the most beautiful cars around.
The BWM 2002. ( you'd appreciate them too when you see them sking through
the slalom like Alberto Tambo ) I still have my 'Poncho',but now it's more
of a concours car than a quarter-miler.

Like i said; Everyone should try there hand at an autocross but be 
forewarned: You may too suffer the same fate, for this is addictive behavior.

>DAVE (johnson@WRS.COM)
 

----------
Posted by: uunet!yuba.wrs.com!johnson (David Johnson)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 21 10:46:27 1992
Subject: RE: ROLLER ROCKERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> >narrow band.  Seems GM has troubles getting the ball sockets round.
-> >Oh, well.
->
-> No, that's actually what's intended. The smaller the surface in
-> contact, the less the total friction. A knife edge pivot would
-> be the ultimate in this direction.

 Yes, a knife edge *pivot* would be OK, but the ball is basically
sliding back and forth in a narrow ring.  This is more friction than,
say, a Ford sled-type rocker where the parts are always separated by an
oil film.
           

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 21 11:35:57 1992
Subject: Re: Ring gear quandry
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Try reviewing some of the mags on your local magazine rack--performance
ones--almost anyone will have a variety of advertisers who offer almost
any ring and pinion, any available ratio for under 200 bucks brand new.
Most prices range from 140-180. Down in southern California we have alot
of do it yourself wrecking yards.  Rear ends complete, drum to drum or disc
to disc are 50 bucks.  San Diego has three of them.  That is where my 
nine inch came from.  Keep looking.

----------
Posted by: brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil (CDR Michael Brattland)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 21 13:23:11 1992
Subject: Re: Reversion?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Robert Valentine asks about black deposits in the carb.  The only time
that I have seen BLACK deposits is when the engine has been backfiring;
this does a good job of coating parts with soot.

A dark brown coating is the result of fuel being deposited on the parts
of the carb and evaporating, leaving behind the heavier portions of the
gasoline mix.  This could be due to reversion but could also be due to
a choke that stays closed too long, doesn't fully open, or a variety
of other problems.  It can also be caused by lots of low RPM operation
with a long duration camshaft; reversion is characteristic of long cams
at low RPM but the problem goes away once you get into the operating
RPM range for the cam.

Hope this provides some useful clues.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net


----------
Posted by: btree!hale@ucsd.edu (Bob Hale)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 09:57:38 1992
Subject: Voltage
To: hotrod@dixie.com



I am installing a Chevy drive train in a street rod which I am building
from the frame up.  I am using a Mallory Unilite Distributor and a Mallory
40,000 volt coil.  I called the Mallory customer service # (702-882-6600)
and asked what I would need in terms of a resistor.  I was told that I 
should use TWO ballast resistors and reduce the voltage to 7 to 9 volts 
before the coil and that resistor wire should not be used. (not enough
resistance)
I would prefer not to use a ballast resistor because they get so hot and
there is not a good spot to locate the UGLY THINGS.
Any alternatives/ suggestions?



billb@fc.hp.com

----------
Posted by: Bill Brewer 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 11:35:11 1992
Subject: RE: REVERSION?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Robert Valentine asks about black deposits in the carb.  The only
-> time that I have seen BLACK deposits is when the engine has been
-> backfiring; this does a good job of coating parts with soot.
->
-> A dark brown coating is the result of fuel being deposited on the
-> parts of the carb and evaporating, leaving behind the heavier
-> portions of the

 Black deposits are soot, and are indications the engine has a big cam,
high compression, or both.  Many engines will turn the entire manifold
and inside of the carb black.  It's nothing to worry about, though it
can be a sign the engine is running excessively rich.
                                                                                                                         

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 13:08:43 1992
Subject: Re: octane ratings
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The Hotrod List writes:
> 
> >I have acess to 135 octane fuel for $2.15 per gallon.  if I were to
> >run this in my car (at the track only, of course) would it go to waste
> >on a 10.5:1 compression ratio? or would it make any improvement over
> >105 octane at all?
> 
> Thoroughly wasted.  You can gain some benefit with higher octane fuel
> by advancing the timing.  However you quickly reach a point where
> your gains are offset by the thermodynamic losses of compressing 
> already burning mix.  More compression is the way to go but even
> there you have to be careful because lots of compression can sometimes
> leave a chamber with so much squish that ignition is poor and turbulence
> is actually impeded resulting in poor flame travel (low power).
> 
> BTW, what brand fuel is that?  Never see that hi octane before.  
> I'd like to get some and play with it.
> 
> John
> 

actually, its exxon!  its aviaton gasoline, but its still gasoline...
I go to school across the street from a small airport.  I can get it
as long as i have him put it in a can (otherwise he's supposed to
charge me a 'road tax'???).

if you really want some, try a local airport.

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From Hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 13:25:59 1992
Subject: propane power!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I have seen cars that have an inside switch to change from gas to
propane.  The problem with making a car work solely on propane (at
least up north) is in the winter, propane tanks can freeze up and stop
flowing.  i suppose it depends where you put the tank. (in the trunk?)

I was wondering what it really takes to *build* an engine for propane.
lower compression?  higher compression?  different rings?bearings?
stroke?  heads? valves?

would an engine built for such an application NOT work well on
gasoline?


Derek Cunningham

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 15:49:02 1992
Subject: RODS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 My brother's '52 pickup bracket racer is coming right along.  The truck
is a full restoration other than late-model powertrain, and it's here in
Arkansas.  Kevin is in Delaware, building the engine in his living room.
(Lisa insists on covering it up with knitted doilies, which annoys him
to no end)  Anyway, he's been talking about this thing ever since he
decided to race the truck back in December; nobody where he's stationed
now ever saw his big block Nova, and all of his parts collection is
buried under volanic ash at Clark AFB in the Philippines.  Mostly,
they've looked at the dweeb driving an Escort and reading car magazines,
and chalked him up as another case of motormouth.  You know, one of
those guys who's always gonna build something, yak yak yak....

 His rods came in the other day.  Brand new +.300 Manley aluminum rods,
prettier than new money.  He took one to work to show it off.  "Hey,
everybody, look at my Manley rod."   "Your manly WHAT?"

   Sometimes it's hard to impress people...

 Showing off the timing tag for his new Sig Erson cam impressed 'em a
little more.  A couple of 'em nearly had a stroke when they saw 268
degrees at .050 lift and .600 valve lift.

 We didn't pick out the cam.  I got all the specs together - 327,
Offy 360 2x4 intake, 2x625 AFBs, 10:1 CR, 3000 pound vehicle, auto,
1.6 rockers, we wanted the powerband from 4000 to 6500, the engine would
not normally be run past 7000.  I called the tech support number for Sig
started giving them figures, and told them I wanted a solid lifter cam.
You could hear the guy chilling out right over the phone.  What kind of
nutball am I, anyway? Maybe this is Candid Camera.  Then I spoke the
magic words:  NO STREET USE. This cheered the tech (Steve Danzy) up
immensely, and he asked what general type of cam I wanted.  "You're the
cam man, you tell me."   "Building a nostalgia motor, are you?" he
asked.  Hmm.  Never thought about it that way - we planned on keeping
the compression and revs low to keep breakage down; we already had the
2x4 manifold and carbs.  Yeah, other than the long rods you could call
it a nostalgia motor.  What the heck.

 Anyway, Steve picked out a lobe he liked, then we started talking about
lobe centers.  We decided on 104 degrees.  Then he noticed we'd nearly
built a cam they already listed in the catalog - that same lobe, only on
106 degree centers, was listed as a high-RPM circle track cam.  The
custom grind would have only been $10 more, but I went ahead with the
catalog cam with the idea of, if we ever nuked the cam, we could just
cruise down to the nearest Super Shops and order one out of the catalog.

 The ladder bars are our next major step.  More about those later.
                                                                            

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 16:24:49 1992
Subject: Re: breaking in new cam 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

On cam breakin. Use a liberal coating of moly-disulfide lube on the cam
and lifter bases. You can't avoid turning the motor over some but don't 
worry. I degree the cam first then take it out and coat it. Set the engine
up for TDC and prime the carb and set the distributor in so that the engine
fires as quickly as possible. Then run it at 2000 or so for about 15 min.
This ensures an adequate supply of oil which comes from the throwoff from
the crank. The last one I did I simply took the car right out on the 
freeway and ran it for 20 min or so. Worked great. 
If you are running very high spring pressures cam breakin becomes critical.
It may be necessary to run light springs for the initial run-in.
Be sure and change the oil as soon as the cam is broken in. 
Also, GM's Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) is excellent for a new cam. In fact,
many cam manufacturers reccomend it. It works in Fords and Chryslers too!
I add another can after the first oil change just for piece of mind.

Anyone have any experience with Slick 50?

RON

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 16:48:51 1992
Subject: Re: breaking in new cam 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>From what I have read, its pretty easy to waste a cam on starting up a new motor
>with a new cam. What I don't understand is how you can get the motor together,
>degree in the cam and adjust the valves with out turning the cam some.  I suppose
>that I am missing something or taking the rags to seriously... but what is the
>correct procedure?

>eric.

	When I break in a cam I use "enough" moly lube and an additive
which I can't think of the name right now.  After the initial break in
I change oil immediately and again after 500 miles.

	During assembly, the parts (pistons, cam, etc.) are not "dry".
A squirt can of oil helps when I turn the crank assembly.

Wes

----------
Posted by: Wes 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 17:25:30 1992
Subject: Re: breaking in new cam
To: hotrod@dixie.com

    In reply to your comment about using SLICK 50:   Slick 50 is great stuff.  It real    
It really does decease the wear in critical engine components such as bearings
cylinder walls, etc.   If you are breaking in your new, possibly expensive, eng    
engine, DO NOT use it until the motor has logged at least 4000 miles.  Using
Slick 50 during the break-in will prevent the piston rings from seating proper-
ly.  This would in turn cause oil consumption early in the engines lifetime.


    Tom

----------
Posted by: "Thomas A. Wierzchon" 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 17:48:00 1992
Subject: Re: Breaking in is hard to do?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Eric Hiss writes that break in procedure can be confusing (and expensive
if improperly done).

I've built a lot of motors over the years, sometimes with all new parts

and sometimes not. What I try to do is apply a liberal coating of moly-
disulfide grease (cam lube) to the lobes and the bottoms of the lifters.

I install the lifters cylinder by cylinder according to the firing order
and adjust them as I go. If you start at TDC of the power stroke for the
first cylinder, you'll only need to go thru two revolutions of the crank
to do all cylinders. Of course, this wipes some of the grease from the 
first lobes, but not enough to hurt.

The main thing you should try to avoid is excessive cranking to get the
engine started the first time. I pre-oil with a modified distributor,
prime the fuel system all the way to the carbs with an electric pump and
make sure my timing is close by lining up the rotor with the cap. With
any luck, the engine will fire almost immediately. Bring the rpm up to
about 2000 with the idle adjust and let it cook for about 15 minutes, all
the while keeping an eye on oil pressure, water temp, leaks and etc.  A
buddy is real valuable at this point!

Most cam problems occur because incorrect springs are used or because
used lifters are mixed up and re-installed on the wrong lobes or if the
general break-in procedure described above is not followed.  Don't sweat
a few extra turns of the cam, the manufacturer has also applied a dry
film lubricant to the lobes that helps to protect it at initial startup.

The main thing is to NOT get in a hurry. Proper planning prevents piss
poor performance.

----------
Posted by: vcook@sierra.com (Victor Cook)



From smg@eedsp.gatech.edu Wed Apr 22 17:54:30 1992
To: bmw@balltown.cma.com
Subject: 80's bmw reliability
Source-Info:  From (or Sender) name not authenticated.


(I meant to send this a couple of weeks ago, but it bounced and then I
forgot about it... )

Ok, folks, new discussion topic. I have heard rumours from various 
sources (claiming various degrees of certainty regarding the factual 
content of these rumours!) concerning bmw reliability through the 
80's. One person, claiming he had inside knowledge, claimed that 
certain years (somewhere in the range of 83 - 85, or maybe 82 - 84) suffered 
from poor quality in components and quality control (due, he claimed, to
financial problems at bmw and consequent corner-cutting). He was 
talking specifically about certain 3-series models - I can't recall for 
certain, but I think the '83-84 318i was one of them. Apparently, in 
any case, 3-series cars from this era suffer from reliability problems.

Anyone got any comments/experience about this?

On a related note, anyone got any comments about the longevity of 
bmw 4-bangers vs. 6-bangers? I know a well-treated bmw inline six is 
good for at least 200k. I expect the 4-cylinder engines don't last 
nearly as long.

Many thanks to Shel Hall for a very informative article on series I 3's.
I had been under the impression that the 320i was a six-cylinder engine.

-Stephen


From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 20:50:36 1992
Subject: Re: Breaking in is hard to do?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>I've built a lot of motors over the years, sometimes with all new parts
>and sometimes not. What I try to do is apply a liberal coating of moly-
>disulfide grease (cam lube) to the lobes and the bottoms of the lifters.

I use a mix of Dow Moly 77 dry moly disulphide and STP mixed to a thick
paste.  Much cheaper than cam lube and seems to protect better.

>I install the lifters cylinder by cylinder according to the firing order
>and adjust them as I go. If you start at TDC of the power stroke for the
>first cylinder, you'll only need to go thru two revolutions of the crank
>to do all cylinders. Of course, this wipes some of the grease from the 
>first lobes, but not enough to hurt.
>
>The main thing you should try to avoid is excessive cranking to get the
>engine started the first time. I pre-oil with a modified distributor,
>prime the fuel system all the way to the carbs with an electric pump and
>make sure my timing is close by lining up the rotor with the cap. With
>any luck, the engine will fire almost immediately. Bring the rpm up to
>about 2000 with the idle adjust and let it cook for about 15 minutes, all
>the while keeping an eye on oil pressure, water temp, leaks and etc.  A
>buddy is real valuable at this point!

This is what I call hairy edge engineering.  My perspective is that
if an assembly is that close to the edge, something should be changed
in order to provide some margin for error.  All these techniques 
are good ideas, don't get me wrong. It's just that I'd never be
comfortable knowing that serveral hundred dollars worth of cam and
lifters is riding on me getting it just right.

The one thing I've not seen mentioned in this thread that I thought was
common practice is the use of breakin springs for assembly, setup and
runin.  These are very weak springs (I make my own on my spring winder
but they are available from various sources) that exert maybe 50 lbs of
closed pressure.  They provide enough tension to hold the valves shut
at low speed.  Just assemble the engine normally except use these
springs, run the motor in as described above and then change the springs
using a head-on spring tool and compressed air in the cylinders to 
hold the valves in place.    I always run my engines on the stand before
installation so it is fairly easy to change springs after runin.

Another technique I use is vacuum to get oil up through the system
the first time.  I take an oil filter, cut the can off and braze a
SAE flare fitting so that it connects to the oil  inlet.  Then I 
connect my refrigeration vacuum pump to the fitting and suck until
oil comes out.  This ensures there is oil in the oil pump
and all the galleys up to and including the oil filter.  If the oil
filter is then filled with oil before installation, oil pressure
is immediate.  This works even on engines where it is hard to get to
the oil drive - japanese engines, for example.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 21:13:19 1992
Subject: RE: EPA & HEADERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)

-> > I also hold a US Motor Vehicle Manufacturer's
-> > Certificate for all the (little) good it does me.  Well, I can
-> assign my > own serial numbers and write my own certificates of
-> title, it's *some* > good.

> How do you get these? I am interested due to my "project" car (tube
> frame boxer-12 mid-engine "somewhat like a Ferrari"), currently in
> the planning stages.

 I just wrote the DOT and asked for one.  About six months later
(the mill of bureaucracy grinds slowly) I got a funky little 1/2 page
carbon copy (when was the last time you saw a carbon?) with my assigned
vehicle number sequence and checksum codes.

 For a one-off or kit car you don't need that.  Most places, all you
need is an affidavit stating the car is new and has never been
titled or registered anywhere before; other states might want you to use
the make/model of the chassis, engine, or other large identifiable part.

 I've heard several states make licensing a one-off a real pain; here in
Arkansas it's absolutely trivial - an affidavit, and of course Dollar
Billy Clinton doubled license fees a few years ago, so it'll cost you
about $30 for the title and registration plus $3.50 for safety
inspection.   If you live in one of the Gestapo states, check your
surrounding states.  Once you *have* a title, most states are much
easier to get along with.
                                                                                                                    

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 21:23:10 1992
Subject: PROPANE POWER!
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> I was wondering what it really takes to *build* an engine for
-> propane. lower compression?  higher compression?  different
-> rings?bearings? stroke?  heads? valves?

 Basically you want to raise the compression to take advantage of
propane's knock resistance.  If you have an engine with poor wet fuel
flow characteristics (say, a big block Chevy or 4V Cleveland) you will
get much better cylinder-to-cylinder mixture distribution, allowing you
to run more compression and spark advance.  You also get better mixture
in the combustion chamber itself; if you've ever torn down a racing
engine you'll have noticed where the wet fuel flow has washed carbon
deposits off areas of the valve, chamber, and piston dome.  This is
irrelevant with propane.

 You can also run a much larger manifold, say a tunnel ram, without
sacrificing driveability.  You can also run a larger cam without
neutering the bottom end torque; most propane mixers are simple mass
airflow devices.

 The stories of propane engines being hard on valve seats are myth and
may be ignored.

-> would an engine built for such an application NOT work well on
-> gasoline?

 It wouldn't work worth squat on gasoline; you're talking about a
moderately rowdy motor that would be soggy on the bottom and probably
ping its piston domes off.

 If you're willing to commit to propane you can do wonders, but dual
fuel don't cut it.
                                                                                                                        

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 21:32:45 1992
Subject: RE: EPA & HEADERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)

-> How do you get these? I am interested due to my "project" car (tube
-> frame boxer-12 mid-engine "somewhat like a Ferrari"), currently in
-> the planning stages.

 Are you planning the engine from scratch, or are you planning on
multiple engines coupled together?  A pair of Corvairs (with appropriate
turbos) would be very interesting.
                                                                                                   

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 21:46:02 1992
Subject: Re:  Voltage
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> (ballast resistors)
> 
> If you want a tech look, mount the resistors to the underside of a finned,
> anodized heat sink with liberal heat sink grease; the heat sink should stand
> off from the wall about an inch.
> 
> If you want invisible, try mounting them to the underside of the fender, the 
> trans tunnel, or mount them to the inside of the firewall before the ignition
> lead exits to the dist. (not where bare feet can touch; maybe enclose and
> again put some heat grease betw resistor & the sheet metal)

Or better yet get some of the mil-spec resistors that are encased in thier 
own heat-sink. You can get them at most surplus electronic stores
although you may have to *look* for them.

>DAVE (johnson@WRS.COM)


----------
Posted by: johnson@yuba.wrs.com (David Johnson)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 21:46:08 1992
Subject: Re: CAM of choice...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

You know Dave, your cam man may be "*THE* CAM MAN," but that much intake
duration with only 106 degree's of lobe separation is going to be pretty
damn stout. I know that's what you're looking for...POWER, but having the
intake valve open so far up the exhaust stroke will put you power band
peak somewhere at or above 7000 RPM. Even though you plan on spining your
mill to 7-grand, best results (low-end torque and all around acceleration)
would be obtained when maximimun Hp is produced at a point BELOW your
maximum expected RPM. The kind of duration@.050" that your selected cam
has would be more acceptable if the lobe sep. was closer to the 110-112
degree range. That way, the intake could be timed to close at < or =
approx. 35 degrees ABDC without the exhaust valve extending well ATDC which
greatly dilutes the intake charge at even moderately high charge velocities.
You *WILL* have to install the can in an advanced state to get your max. Hp
even close to < 7000 RPM. With the longer rods the problem of setting the
optimum cam timing will be further aggrevating. If you've got the patience
of jobe, and don't mine tearing down the cam timing system continually until
its to a point where everything will harmonize ( a very slim margin with
your selected components) then you *may* end up with a power monster.
Personally, i think that you'll have to either increase your "expected" max.
RPM or get a more cosely matched cam. You made the correct choice in not
opting for the cam with an even smaller lobe sep.. It would have an even
*smaller* band of efficiency. Now if you were expecting to twist your
puppy to about 7600+ RPM, then I'd say that you made an excellent choice   
cam-wise. But alas, I don't think that you would be willing to put those types
of stresses on your engine. You know--the kind of stesses that increase
exponentially with RPM. If all this sounds like the voice of experience,
it should. I spent a seemingly endless amount of time dialing in the cam
timing on my 911. I 'built' the motor myself with 9.9-1 CR, an endless       
amount of internal polishing, 911s soft-nitrided rods & crank(fully counter-
weighted), 911s heads (valves:42mmI,38mmE.Ports:36nnI,35mmE), and I went
the same route you did: 252 deg.I(@.050",.462"lift@valve), 
234 deg.E(@.050',.430"lift@valve)....now remember, I'm running only 332cc
per cyl. and a 66mm stroke. On the chassis dyno, the first tune yielded
122Hp@7200 RPM, The dyno man said that a change in cam timing was in order.
I dropped the engine, reset the timing with int.and exh. lift =@ 3 deg.
BTDC (3 deg.advanced from manufaturer recomenations). This put us at
128Hp@6800RPM! and an increase of max torque from 112ft/lbs@5600 to
120ft/lbs@5400RPM!!! After countless variations of cam timing and carb
jetting(dual triple barrel Webers w/1 barrel per cyl.) and 6 mos.
later, max torque was 132ft/lbs@5500RPM and max.Hp 138Hp@7000RPM. With
the cam set @ 5 deg. 35' advanced from manufacterers recomended setting.
NOTE: These figures are all in road Hp and Torque. And i must also mention 
that the 911 engine has a nearly limitless cam timing adjustment through
the use of vernier sprockets which makes things easy (and you thought that
they were just glorified volkswagons)     
All in all, putting out a specific Hp of 70Hp/Ltr @ the rear wheels is pretty
damn good. The max Hp is also at a point just below the max expected RPM
of 7400 which allows the extra margin for the shift and doesn't put the
engine back down out of its power band and expected to pull out of it for
the next scream to redline. 

Anyway, hope any of this helps. I would at least suggest that you retard the
cam by some means, be it offset woodruff key or other, to about 5-6 deg.
BTDC@I=E lift. But make shure you don't have a problem with valve to piston
clearance (.6" lift can get in the way of even low comp. pistons with that
kind of overlap.)

Good luck!

>DAVE (johnson@WRS.COM)


----------
Posted by: johnson@yuba.wrs.com (David Johnson)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 23:16:34 1992
Subject: Re: breaking in new cam 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Thanks for the info on Schlick 50. My fo-fity-fo has about 5 k on it
now and in my 70SS just notched a 12.25 ET @ 109 and of course another
.05 sec or so will get me closer to that 11.99 slip. The latest Hot Rod mag
says low 12's or 11's cant be done with a true street car so even more 
reason to shoot for it.
A 4000 lb car with 3.55's BTW
Anyone else try this stuff?
RON

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 23:56:14 1992
Subject: Re: Breaking in is hard to do?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Another technique I use is vacuum to get oil up through the system
> the first time.  I take an oil filter, cut the can off and braze a
> SAE flare fitting so that it connects to the oil  inlet.  Then I 
> connect my refrigeration vacuum pump to the fitting and suck until
> oil comes out.  This ensures there is oil in the oil pump
> and all the galleys up to and including the oil filter.  If the oil
> filter is then filled with oil before installation, oil pressure
> is immediate.  This works even on engines where it is hard to get to
> the oil drive - japanese engines, for example.
> 
> John
>
Most of us don't have access to such things as $300 and up vacume pumps.

What I do to prime and engine (since none of the engines i work on can
be primed by the internal oil pump: 911, Datsun L,VW air and water...)
is just take a bottle with a pointed squirt end. Like the ones that
gear lube comes in. Fill it with oil, remove the oil pressure sender,
insert and squeeze. It works great! I make shure oil comes from the 
cam squirters, crank, etc. It's low cost, and very affective. If you
don't have room to put a bottle near your oil press. sender hole, just
put a hose with the appropriate fitting into your sender hole. You can
then remotely prime the engine. Since the oil pressure sender hole is 
located obviously on the pressure side of the pump, the whole engine gets
primed. This can be done seconds before start-up too, so theres no time 
for the oil to run off.

Why reinvent the wheel?

>DAVE (johnson@WRS.COM)

----------
Posted by: johnson@yuba.wrs.com (David Johnson)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 00:10:46 1992
Subject: Re: Breaking in is hard to do?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>> Another technique I use is vacuum to get oil up through the system
>> the first time.  I take an oil filter, cut the can off and braze a
>> SAE flare fitting so that it connects to the oil  inlet.  

>Most of us don't have access to such things as $300 and up vacume pumps.

Having access to the proper tools is as simple as buying or borrowing
the tools.  Not being willing to do that is no excuse for not doing it
right.

>What I do to prime and engine (since none of the engines i work on can
>be primed by the internal oil pump: 911, Datsun L,VW air and water...)
>is just take a bottle with a pointed squirt end. Like the ones that
>gear lube comes in. Fill it with oil, remove the oil pressure sender,
>insert and squeeze. It works great! I make shure oil comes from the 
>cam squirters, crank, etc. It's low cost, and very affective. 

This does NOT prime the oil pump.  This fills the relatively low volume
galleys downstream of the oil filter.  The oil follows the path of least
resistance which is out through the rod and mains and to the cam
towers.  It does NOT flow back against the considerable resistance of
the oil filter and the close tolerance pump.  I have tried this technique
with more sophisticated apparatus in the form of a small tank pressurized
with shop air.  Even with this high pressure system, I found little oil 
upstream of the filter.

>Why reinvent the wheel?
>

One reinvents the wheel when the original one is broken.  My use of 
vacuum is not an idle decision.  Here are some reason:

*	Vacuum expands air bubbles, allowing oil to displace them when the 
	vacuum is broken.
*	It actually primes the suction path to the pump and removes all
	air from the pump.
*	There is no risk of accidently introducing foreign materials into
	the engine, particularly downstream of the filter.  One plastic
	shaving from that squeeze bottle is all it takes to trash a bearing.
*	Any debris that may be in the oil galleys will be flushed OUT 
	of the system and into the vacuum system.

This method does NOT charge the galleys downstream of the filter.
In practice this volume is small enough that oil can be seen at 
the cam within a couple of revolutions during cranking and usually
before the engine fires.  If for some reason the downstream volume
is high, such as with an external oil cooler, then I turn the engine
slowly (break in springs on the valves, remember?) until oil flows
from the bearings.  A variable speed 1/2" drill fitted with an adaptor
to the crank works well for this.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 04:12:18 1992
Subject: UNDELIVERABLE MAIL
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 >Practically everything is different between your 2.3 and a 5.0; you
 can >make most of it work, but your local junkyard staff will be on a
 first >name basis by the time you're done.

 > In other words, forget it! IMHO, the way to go is to sell the 2.3L
 > car and buy one that already has the 5.0L in it. Why go through all

 Well, yes and no.  If all you want is a 5.0 Mustang, sure, the
 simplest way is to trade the 2.3 in for one.  But what if you intend
 to ditch all the factory stuff anyway, and run maybe a 351W, swap in
 the rear disc axle from a different year/model, junk the front
 suspension and replace it with autocross-type goodies, and put a set
 of aftermarket wheels on?  In this scenario, starting with the 2.3
 would save you money in the long run.

 My insurance company also tells me they don't recognize engine swaps.
 If the car was delivered as a 2.3, it's always a 2.3 with them, one
 of the few times the insurance vultures give you a break.
                             

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 10:36:08 1992
Subject: Re: Breaking in is hard to do?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 I use a thingmobob I found at some flea market or other in the Fine Imported
Tools section. It's a suction/pressure cylinder with an O-ring seal and
a barbed fitting on the end for hose. It works well for pushing diff oil
uphill into the case, and I've used the suction to prime the transmission
pump via the cooler lines, etc. It doesn't produce a hard vacuum but you
don't need one for this kind of thing. The oil pressure sender hole is a
good place to tap into to apply suction. You need a little stub of threaded
pipe. 


----------
Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 10:44:05 1992
Subject: RE: EPA & HEADERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> reply to: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
> -> How do you get these? I am interested due to my "project" car (tube
> -> frame boxer-12 mid-engine "somewhat like a Ferrari"), currently in
> -> the planning stages.
>  Are you planning the engine from scratch, or are you planning on
> multiple engines coupled together?  A pair of Corvairs (with appropriate
> turbos) would be very interesting.

This is yet-to-be-determined, but the general notion is along the lines of
using as many readily available parts as possible - initially I had the
idea of using motorcycle blocks, heads, pistons, and maybe rods on a
custom crank and case, but I haven't yet found the right combination of
number-of-cylinders (4 won't do, has to be 1, 2, or 3) timing system
(although two-stroke is attractive - 4 KH400 blocks might work) and general
layout. The key is that it has to be small enough to strap onto yer butt,
but potent enough to never wish I had more power. If I can keep the weight
of the car low enough, the power problem gets a lot easier.


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@hpwarq.hp.com

----------
Posted by: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 10:52:59 1992
Subject: RE: EPA & HEADERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> reply to: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
>  I've heard several states make licensing a one-off a real pain; here in
> Arkansas it's absolutely trivial - an affidavit, and of course Dollar
> Billy Clinton doubled license fees a few years ago, so it'll cost you
> about $30 for the title and registration plus $3.50 for safety
> inspection.   If you live in one of the Gestapo states, check your
> surrounding states.  Once you *have* a title, most states are much
> easier to get along with.

Here in the Police State of Taxachusetts, the title fee is $50, the 
registration another $35, and the inspection is $15 - "Dollar Bill"
doesn't sound like such a bad deal by comparison. The notion of titling
a vehicle out-of-state and transfering it seems preferable to having to
beat on know-nothing registry employees for weeks just so they can screw
up the paperwork completely again... naturally those fees are NOT used
to hire competent state employees.


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@hpwarq.hp.com

----------
Posted by: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 11:27:31 1992
Subject: Light 12 banger
To: hotrod@dixie.com

lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien) writes:
>This is yet-to-be-determined, but the general notion is along the lines of
>using as many readily available parts as possible - initially I had the
>idea of using motorcycle blocks, heads, pistons, and maybe rods on a
>custom crank and case, but I haven't yet found the right combination of
>number-of-cylinders (4 won't do, has to be 1, 2, or 3) timing system
>(although two-stroke is attractive - 4 KH400 blocks might work) and general
>layout. The key is that it has to be small enough to strap onto yer butt,
>but potent enough to never wish I had more power. If I can keep the weight
>of the car low enough, the power problem gets a lot easier.

	I'd suggest two Ninja 1000R blocks and heads and carbs and two
EX500 blocks and heads and carbs.  You'd have a total displacement of three
liters and, if the output of the transplanted engines is anywhere close to
their output as motorcycle engines, you'll have over 300bhp.  That should be
more than enough for a light car!

Good luck,
Chris BeHanna
behanna@syl.nj.nec.com

----------
Posted by: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 12:49:10 1992
Subject: RE: CAM OF CHOICE...
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: johnson@yuba.wrs.com (David Johnson)

-> You know Dave, your cam man may be "*THE* CAM MAN," but that much
-> intake duration with only 106 degree's of lobe separation is going to
-> be pretty damn stout. I know that's what you're looking for...POWER,
-> but having the intake valve open so far up the exhaust stroke will
-> put you power band peak somewhere at or above 7000 RPM.

 I was a bit surprised at the Steve's recommendation myself - I would
have picked something around 245 degrees at .050 and 108 degrees lobe,
but you have to consider the mitigating factors - this is a long rod 327
with an open plenum intake, the vehicle is relatively light (we figure
2800 or so) and will never be driven on the street.  We're also using
short gears and a 4000 stall convertor.

 We're figuring a 2500 RPM powerband; I really don't think 106 is too
narrow.  Theoretically, anyway.

 What the heck.  This is a race motor.  If we don't like it, we'll
change it.  Sig is running a Racer Special, Chevy cams are only $78
direct from Sig.  At that price we can try one or two, or see what
happens when we slide in a few from Kevin's cam collection.

 I've always tended to be conservative on cams, favoring short duration,
moderate lift, and ferocious accelerations.  This will be my first time
dealing with a really big cam.


 BTW, I had an adjustable cam sprocket on my 2000 Ford.  Had about ten
degrees of adjustment.  It could have been that particular engine, but I
didn't notice any tremendous change running it from one end of the
adjustment to the other.  Never had a chance to play with a DOHC
motor's cam phasing, though.  The ones in my Yamaha are a pain to get
to. 
                                                                                 

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From babcock!lombard!michael@uunet.UU.NET Thu Apr 23 12:49:46 1992
Subject: RE2- Zenith carb responses
To: "Ken DelGrande" 
Cc: "BMW Mailing List" 

  I thought long and hard about what you said, and here's
  my reply....
  RE2- Zenith carb responses
Ken,

I have been told by several people that the Jam Engineering Weber setup is
high quality.  In fact, that is what I have on my 2800s which will soon be
transplanted to my Bavaria.  The setup runs extremely well.  I managed to
find mine at a local salvage.  Should you care to purchase this setup new
(in the neighborhood of $900 for the whole thing), be sure to get your CCA
discount.

Michael J. Harper
uunet!babcock!mharper




From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 12:58:33 1992
Subject: RE: CAM OF CHOICE...
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Anyway, hope any of this helps. I would at least suggest that you
-> retard the cam by some means, be it offset woodruff key or other, to
-> about 5-6 deg. BTDC@I=E lift. But make shure you don't have a problem
-> with valve to piston clearance (.6" lift can get in the way of even
-> low comp. pistons with that kind of overlap.)

 We're running a gear drive with some adjustment and a windowed timing
cover.  Means pulling the water pump off, but that's no big deal on a
Chevy.   That's one area where Ford could have improved on with the 302,
but noooo...  nobody else is much better though.  I guess I have to
concede ease of cam access to the Bowtie Brigade.

 Kevin's daughter Mary Ann cuts water pump gaskets out of Froot Loop
boxes.  Hey, they don't leak, they're free, and they keep the kid
quiet...
                                                              

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 13:24:40 1992
Subject: RE: PROPANE POWER!
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: Datsun Dave Coleman 

->      Does anyone know of any suppliers of propane equiptment
-> (plumbing, mixers, airflow sensors, etc)

 ASCII and ye shall receive:

 Hatch & Kirk
 1111 Green Island Road
 American Cyn CA 94589
 707-644-7766

 LE Klein Co
 2914 Reward
 PO Box 20528
 Dallas TX 75220
 214-350-4679

 Ak Miller Enterprises
 9236 Bermuda St.
 Pico Rivera CA 90660
 213-949-2548
                                                              

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 13:31:56 1992
Subject: SB400 Chevy build up suggestions wanted
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I've got a SB 400 chevy motor that I'm planing to build as a weekend
warrior. I'm in the planning stages at the moment and I thought I'd hit
you guys up for some suggestions. My goal is to produce around 400hp @
~400ftlb's of torque. The block came from a '73 3/4 ton truck and is in
acceptionaly good shape. In fact it doesn't need to be bored out nor
does it need any crank work. I'm shooting for about 9-9.5:1 compression
with forged flat top pistons. I'm guessing that 76cc heads will
accomplish this. My problem is that I don't have a formula (if one
exists) to calculate what I will actually end up with. Anyone have
experience or suggestions on this? Also it seems that several of you
have a good understanding of cams so I'd like to tap that knowledge too. I
don't want to spin the 400 more than 6 grand, less if reasonably
possible to develop my goals. I'm considering a set of heads with
2.02/1.60 valves that I plan to mildly port (mostly valve bowl and
exhaust port clean up). I was thinking of choosing a cam with about a
4.80 lift with a mild duration spec. Unfortunately I'm no authority on
cams as I've alway just gone with tryed and proven grinds that I know
work. BTW I plan to use Rhodes lifters (theres that name again!) on the
cam so possibly a more radical profile will work while still maintaining
a wide torque band. If any of you have built a motor similar to this and
have some other suggestions to make please do! Oh ya, will my Edelbrock
Performer intake manifold flow enough for this motor or should I
consider the new Edelbrock RPM manifold. Also what carb size should I
use. I have a 625 Carter and a 750 Holley to play with. Well thats it
for now. Keep rodin alive!!!!!
  _________________________________   _____________________________________
 /         _______________         \ /  OLD CHEVYS NEVER DIE, THEY JUST GO \
|        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |     |             R A C I N G !!            |
|      / /_________________\ \|     |   OLD JAPANESE CARS NEVER DIE, THEY   |
|  -------------------------------  |    JUST TURN BACK INTO BEER CANS!!    |
|  / O O O -----Chevy----- O O O \  |_______________________________________|
| (_______________________________) | MARK JENSEN           (503) 627-3115  |
| (_______________________________) | TEKTRONIX METROLOGY LAB.              |
|  |\ _________________________ /|  | BEAVERTON, OREGON        MS. 39-732   | 
|  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |  |        markj@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM       |
 \_|______|_______________|______|_/ \_____________________________________/

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 13:31:56 1992
Subject: SB400 Chevy build up suggestions wanted
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I've got a SB 400 chevy motor that I'm planing to build as a weekend
warrior. I'm in the planning stages at the moment and I thought I'd hit
you guys up for some suggestions. My goal is to produce around 400hp @
~400ftlb's of torque. The block came from a '73 3/4 ton truck and is in
acceptionaly good shape. In fact it doesn't need to be bored out nor
does it need any crank work. I'm shooting for about 9-9.5:1 compression
with forged flat top pistons. I'm guessing that 76cc heads will
accomplish this. My problem is that I don't have a formula (if one
exists) to calculate what I will actually end up with. Anyone have
experience or suggestions on this? Also it seems that several of you
have a good understanding of cams so I'd like to tap that knowledge too. I
don't want to spin the 400 more than 6 grand, less if reasonably
possible to develop my goals. I'm considering a set of heads with
2.02/1.60 valves that I plan to mildly port (mostly valve bowl and
exhaust port clean up). I was thinking of choosing a cam with about a
4.80 lift with a mild duration spec. Unfortunately I'm no authority on
cams as I've alway just gone with tryed and proven grinds that I know
work. BTW I plan to use Rhodes lifters (theres that name again!) on the
cam so possibly a more radical profile will work while still maintaining
a wide torque band. If any of you have built a motor similar to this and
have some other suggestions to make please do! Oh ya, will my Edelbrock
Performer intake manifold flow enough for this motor or should I
consider the new Edelbrock RPM manifold. Also what carb size should I
use. I have a 625 Carter and a 750 Holley to play with. Well thats it
for now. Keep rodin alive!!!!!
  _________________________________   _____________________________________
 /         _______________         \ /  OLD CHEVYS NEVER DIE, THEY JUST GO \
|        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |     |             R A C I N G !!            |
|      / /_________________\ \|     |   OLD JAPANESE CARS NEVER DIE, THEY   |
|  -------------------------------  |    JUST TURN BACK INTO BEER CANS!!    |
|  / O O O -----Chevy----- O O O \  |_______________________________________|
| (_______________________________) | MARK JENSEN           (503) 627-3115  |
| (_______________________________) | TEKTRONIX METROLOGY LAB.              |
|  |\ _________________________ /|  | BEAVERTON, OREGON        MS. 39-732   | 
|  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |  |        markj@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM       |
 \_|______|_______________|______|_/ \_____________________________________/

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 14:28:18 1992
Subject: Re:  PROPANE POWER!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Any addresses handy for propane conversion suppliers? (both dual-fuel 
>and propane-only) 

The propane gas association (forget its real name) publishes a guide
that lists conversion dealer and also dealers that sell automotive
fuel.  Check with a real propane dealer (not a grocery store that
has a fill station) to find out about the guide.  One thing you learn 
about running propane in your car is to always carry the guide and a 
set of adaptors to go between POL, vehicle and forklift fill hoses.
That way you can get filled anywhere.

>LPG at the off-ramp in Muttonhump, W. Va? That's the thing keeping me from
>going straight-out propane (that and $2000). I'd settle for an engine that
>ran poorly on gas and well on propane, as long as I could limp along on
>liquid fuel 'til I found a "gas" station. Are there any dual-fuel setups
>you have seen that are biased toward propane performance but retain 
>gasoline capability if not performance? 

What you could do is build an engine optimized for propane and add
fuel injection to it for gas.  Most all propane systems still use
"carburators" (misnomer but we'll use it.)  That means that some 
injectors could be added un obtrusively to the manifold.  Operated
in the speed-density mode (with MAP input) and controlled by one of
the aftermarket controllers, going to gas again could become a flip
of the switch.  If you use one of the crank-triggered ignitions that
are programmable (Electromotive comes to mind), you could also activate
a new advance curve that could control ping on gas.  Electromotive's
FI controller also does direct ignition so you could have it all in one
package.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 14:39:46 1992
Subject: RE: EPA & HEADERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>This is yet-to-be-determined, but the general notion is along the lines of
>using as many readily available parts as possible - initially I had the
>idea of using motorcycle blocks, heads, pistons, and maybe rods on a
>custom crank and case, but I haven't yet found the right combination of
>number-of-cylinders (4 won't do, has to be 1, 2, or 3) timing system
>(although two-stroke is attractive - 4 KH400 blocks might work) and general
>layout. The key is that it has to be small enough to strap onto yer butt,
>but potent enough to never wish I had more power. If I can keep the weight
>of the car low enough, the power problem gets a lot easier.

Have you thought of looking at outboard motor boat engines?  A couple of
big Merc V-6 two strokes strapped together breathing through 12 
expansion chambers would be music to the ears.  They respond VERY well
to standard two stroke tuning techniques.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 15:53:41 1992
Subject: RE: 12 banger
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> > reply to: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
> > -> How do you get these? I am interested due to my "project" car (tube
> > -> frame boxer-12 mid-engine "somewhat like a Ferrari"), currently in
> > -> the planning stages.
> >  Are you planning the engine from scratch, or are you planning on
> > multiple engines coupled together?  A pair of Corvairs (with appropriate
> > turbos) would be very interesting.
> 
> This is yet-to-be-determined, but the general notion is along the lines of
> using as many readily available parts as possible - initially I had the
> idea of using motorcycle blocks, heads, pistons, and maybe rods on a
> custom crank and case, but I haven't yet found the right combination of
> number-of-cylinders (4 won't do, has to be 1, 2, or 3) timing system
> (although two-stroke is attractive - 4 KH400 blocks might work) and general
> layout. The key is that it has to be small enough to strap onto yer butt,
> but potent enough to never wish I had more power. If I can keep the weight
> of the car low enough, the power problem gets a lot easier.


	Well, here's a radical idea.  If you want 12 combustion chambers,
why not build yourself a four rotor?  It has been done many times before.
John Deere (yes, the tractor people) has tinkered with some multiple rotor
engines, Racing Beat built a four rotor out of two 13Bs that put out "600+
horsepower and 350 ft-lbs of torque at 9000 rpm" (direct quote from the
Racing Beat catalog) and of course, Mazda itself builds a four rotor engine
for its IMSA GTP car, but at over $90,000 the ceramic lined beast may be a
tad out of everyone's price range.

	-Dave

----------
Posted by: Datsun Dave Coleman 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 16:03:06 1992
Subject: RE: EPA & HEADERS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Have you thought of looking at outboard motor boat engines?  A couple of
> big Merc V-6 two strokes strapped together breathing through 12 
> expansion chambers would be music to the ears.  They respond VERY well
> to standard two stroke tuning techniques.

The problem there is the form factor - I want a boxer 12 because it is
low and flat, and I don't want that "high tail" look of the Loti...

The idea is good, though, a V-6 has two good 3-cyl heads and blocks.
What kinds of displacement values are available? For 2-stroke, I'm
thinking about 3 liters total should be all I need.


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@hpwarq.hp.com

----------
Posted by: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 16:09:08 1992
Subject: 2 stroke car engine
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>The idea is good, though, a V-6 has two good 3-cyl heads and blocks.
>What kinds of displacement values are available? For 2-stroke, I'm
>thinking about 3 liters total should be all I need.

boat engines are rated in HP so I'm not sure of the displacement.
Merc has had a 235 hp V-6 on the market for years.  I've driven
a tunnel hull racing boat with one attached.  125 mph on the water 
is strokin'.  These engines are tuned rather low because props 
need real smooth torque curves.  lots of possibilities 
for a street engine. :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 16:26:16 1992
Subject: Re: Cam break-in
To: hotrod@dixie.com


John,

You referenced a couple of techniques that you use during engine break-in
that interested me and I thought we might re-visit them.

You (and I think, Dave) mentioned the use of light springs. I don't ever
recall hearing of this approach. When buying a cam, I always get a matched
set of springs and lifters. In general, for all but the most agressive
cam designs, the recommended springs have moderate rates. For cam profiles
designed for the street, I've never encountered a spring with enough
pressure to shear the oil/lube film and cause failure during run-in. I'm
not saying it couldn't happen, but if it did, I can't say I'd feel real
comfortable the second time around with lighter springs as the "fix".

For non-roller, steep ramp, hi-lift cams, using lighter springs may have
merit as long as the rpm is kept low enough to prevent the lifter and
lobe from separating and crashing back together. I've only used profiles
like that a couple of times. I seemed to graduate from mild hydraulics to
rollers with not much in between.

You also mentioned the use of STP as one of the ingredients in "Dr. John's
Fantasmagloric Cam Paste". I try to refrain from knocking products (see 
the Slick 50 flame wars in r.a.t.), but I wouldn't use that stuff if Andy
Granitelli was my dear old dad. The only cam I ever saw "go flat" during
break-in had the lifters dipped in STP prior to installation. Two motors
were built side by side using identical components in the same shop, one
used moly-disulfide, the other STP. The one with the moly lube ran all
season (circle track), and so did the other as soon as the cam and lifters
were replaced and run in with moly lube.

I know it's not always scientific to tailor your behavior based on some
one else's experiences. You usually don't have access to all the factors
that led to the destructive event; which makes it easy to draw incorrect
conclusions. With regard to STP, what I saw convinced me to steer clear
of the stuff.

Most cam manufacturers specify moly-disulfide and some even recommend the
use of GM's Engine Oil Supplement (as Ron mentioned). I've always had very
good results with this approach.

Vic

----------
Posted by: vcook@sierra.com (Victor Cook)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 23 16:34:07 1992
Subject: 12 cyl lo-rider
To: hotrod@dixie.com


If you -must- have 12 cylinders, the old Honda CBXs had inline-6 engines. 
Probably not as powerful as modern Ninjamoto types.

The motorcycle drivetrain idea has appealed to me for some time (but not
enough for me to do anything about). I figure two motorcycle rear ends
and drivetrains would provide a nice independent rear, full time traction
setup. Probably need a pair of panhard rods to keep the swing arms in line
around the corners, and a sway bar too, but the rest of the suspension
is there already and speed-capable. Dunno if 2 forks up front is a good
idea or not, although the camber change when they turn might be nice.

Now, how about extending this? with 3, 4 maybe in the line behind you
you now have a huge contact patch, 4 independent driving wheels
(and a big carb synchronization headache). Go for I-16! Who needs V-12?

----------
Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 24 00:58:09 1992
Subject: RE: 12 BANGER
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> > This is yet-to-be-determined, but the general notion is along the
-> lines of > using as many readily available parts as possible -
-> initially I had the > idea of using motorcycle blocks, heads,
-> pistons, and maybe rods on a > custom crank and case, but I haven't
-> yet found the right combination of

 Two Corvair flat sixes, three VW flat fours, two Buick V6s, two
Evinrude outboards, two Honda GL1500 sixes, or....

 What type of machine shop facilities do you have available?

 At one time I had doodled a street rod motor based on a Lincoln V12
short block converted to OHV.  The plan was to find some OHV head with
similar bore spacing, then section and reweld the heads as required to
line them up with the Lincoln.  There's plenty of metal in the block for
drilling and tapping new head bolt holes.  Circle trackers section two
Chevy V8 heads and put them on inline six blocks without troubles.

 You'd have to fabricate the entire induction system.  The camshaft
would have to be built up with weld to move the lobes around to match
the heads, which probably wouldn't have the intakes and exhausts in the
same spot as the flatty.  There'd be the usual small details like
valvetrain oiling, etc.

 Such an engine would be mainly for show.  It's a long stroke, small
bore motor, the innards are what you'd expect from late 1930s
technology, and I wouldn't trust the decks and heads with any amount of
detonation.

 If you have access to a machine shop, your best bet would be to
duplicate the crankcase layout of the Offenhauser fours.  They were
designed to be made with a big lathe and a vertical mill.  You assemble
the bearing bulkheads around the crank and drop it into the crankcase,
then bolt the bulkheads in place.  Use six of the water cooled VW
cylinder pairs for cylinders, with the VW heads.  Lubrication, cooling,
and ignition are left as an excercise for the reader.  
                                                                                                                       

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 24 01:11:12 1992
Subject: FORD IN A MAZDA?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: Datsun Dave Coleman 

->      OK, I just have to ask why you put a 2000 Ford engine into an
-> RX-7. I can see getting a lot more power from the original engine
-> with a little

 That particular 2000 wasn't mine - the engine in question was in my
autocross Capri.

 The Ford/RX7 was for a friend who'd just bought the car and the motor
detonated a week later.  I sold him one of my backup 2000s cheap and put
it in for him.  Folded some box sections and had them welded to the
chassis to support the motor mounts, turned a slave cylinder on the
lathe at work (hard to find 4" stroke, 5/8" bore cylinders!) and put it
in.  The 2000 fit under the hood without modification, was lighter than
the rotary, made about the same rated power, and got better gas mileage.
What more could you want?  The Mazda dealer wanted $360 for just a
gasket set for the rotary; I did the whole swap for $400.  Sure, it was
practically charity, but what the heck.

 Last summer I dropped $1000 for a factory rebuilt rotary for my wife's
RX7 because I was too lazy to do a swap.  I've regretted it since - the
sucker smokes, and I'm tired of the little emissions do-whoppies
freezing up or dying and causing it to run like crud until I can track
them down.  When this rotary pukes I'll do a swap.  I sort of have my
eye on the 2.8 liter Chevy V6 as used in the S10 pickups.  However, if I
can verify that the B2200 engine used in Mazda pickups will bolt to the
rotary's transmission I'll probably just drop one of those in.
                                                                                                   

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 24 02:51:15 1992
Subject: Re: FORD IN A MAZDA?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> ->      OK, I just have to ask why you put a 2000 Ford engine into an
> -> RX-7. I can see getting a lot more power from the original engine
> 
>  The Ford/RX7 was for a friend who'd just bought the car and the motor
> detonated a week later.  I sold him one of my backup 2000s cheap and put
> it in for him.  Folded some box sections and had them welded to the
> chassis to support the motor mounts, turned a slave cylinder on the
> lathe at work (hard to find 4" stroke, 5/8" bore cylinders!) and put it
> in.  The 2000 fit under the hood without modification, was lighter than
> the rotary, made about the same rated power, and got better gas mileage.
> What more could you want?  

	About 200 hp!  ahahhahhahah!  

The Mazda dealer wanted $360 for just a
> gasket set for the rotary; I did the whole swap for $400.  Sure, it was
> practically charity, but what the heck.

	Yea, but after the seals, there isn't much to rebuilding a rotary.
Replace all the seals, maybe machine the side housings a little, and leave
the bearings alone (I know a 13B race engine with BIG bridge ports that has
gone 5 seasons on one set of bearings, they just don't see any wear even at
9000+ rpm!).

>  Last summer I dropped $1000 for a factory rebuilt rotary for my wife's
> RX7 because I was too lazy to do a swap.  I've regretted it since - the
> sucker smokes, and I'm tired of the little emissions do-whoppies
> freezing up or dying and causing it to run like crud until I can track
> them down.  When this rotary pukes I'll do a swap. 

	What's a rodder like you doing buying a factory engine?  Build the
old one with street ports, a 48mm DeLorto (sp?), a header, and you have an
easy 200hp!  Very streetable as far as performance and a very wide
powerband, not so hot in the gas mileage department...

 I sort of have my
> eye on the 2.8 liter Chevy V6 as used in the S10 pickups.  However, if I
> can verify that the B2200 engine used in Mazda pickups will bolt to the
> rotary's transmission I'll probably just drop one of those in.

	I wouldn't bet on it. Rotaries have the starter mounted low on the
driver's side next to the bellhousing.  I am pretty sure the Mazda four
banger has the starter next to the engine (besides, if I remember correctly,
and that is a big if, the B2200 has a Mitsubishi engine)

	-Dave, sole champion of the engine that goes whirrr, not boing boing.

----------
Posted by: Datsun Dave Coleman 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Apr 24 02:58:58 1992
Subject: Why a factory motor?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Dave Coleman 

>>  Last summer I dropped $1000 for a factory rebuilt rotary for my wife's
>> RX7 
>
>	What's a rodder like you doing buying a factory engine?  

Bzzzt.  I'll answer that one :-)  You ever hear the tale about the 
cobbler's children having bare feet?  Or the plumber's crapper leaking?
Same here.  I have tags and insurance on 5 cars and 3 or 4 more at
any time in various states of repair.  And I still have to 
walk around the yard to figure out which one will run good enough
today to get me around!  I'm doing all this nifty neeto state-of-the-art
stuff, mostly for other people, and I can barely find a car that runs.
My El Camino is begging to throw a rod, the Z has a half-completed 
fuel injection running it, sorta,  the BMW has a CV joint and/or
a chunk bearing going out and the jeep is in a general state of rot.
I bought my wife a Toyota appliance (Camry) just so we'd have something
reliable to drive.  And believe it or not, it goes to the shop for
everything from oil changes up.

Ok, ok, now I've got you all in tears (bored or otherwise), back to 
hotrodding.

So whose gonna be at the Southern Nationals this weekend?  I'm headed out
in the morning.  I'll be the big guy with the NRA hat, a Lincoln beard
and the radar gun over my shoulder :-)  Just got through modifying my
gun so it'll accurately display up to 500 mph (just guess how I calibrated
it :-) so I'm ready for 'em :-)

John


----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:34:46 1992
Subject: DIY Headers
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Message-Id: <9204261207.AA26419@kcbbs.gen.nz>
Date: 26 Apr 92 12:07:03 EDT (Sun)

When I want to make headers, I work out what diameter, length, etc I   
need and then bend up some welding rods to the required shape.  
I take these down to the local exhaust shop and get him to bend up   
some tubing to the same shape as rods.   
If you buy the header plates and all the tubing from them, they are   
quite happy to do it. It seems that they hate making up headers.  
  
Steve.  
_______________________________________________________________________       
Steve_Baldwin@kcbbs.gen.nz                                           *  
Kappa Crucis - Public Unix BBS                                   k *   *  
Auckland, NEW ZEALAND.                                                .   
FidoNet 3:772/90  Phone (09)817-3714                                 *  
The light at the end of the tunnel is a train coming the other way.  

----------
Posted by: Steve_Baldwin@kcbbs.gen.nz



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:36:03 1992
Subject: RE: FORD IN A MAZDA?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


	oops, my mailer messed up, lets try this again....

>  I'm not impressed with the rotary.  Parts are too crazy expensive, and
> even the new engine smokes, despite having all the factory emissions
> controls other than all the weirdo starting doodads.  (do you really
> NEED water injection, an electric motor that pumps the gas pedal, and
> the most redundant weirdo Rube Goldberg system I've ever seen to
> automatically cancel a MANUAL choke?  Mine didn't.)  The thing only
> smokes on startup and idle, but you choke backing through your own cloud
> in the morning.  Yes, the oil pump is set correctly.  Yes, I probably
> got ripped by the dealer.  They claim it's still within its service
> limits.  

	I can't argue with you there, emissions on rotaries are rediculus,
especially on older ones.  I have never tried to work on an emissions
controlled rotary, only looked at them in confusion.  The choke release
gizmo is thanks to the EPA.  You'll notice that there aren't any other cars
of that era with manual chokes, probably because nobody else was willing to
go to the trouble.  Personally, I prefer the manual choke as I have never
seen an auto choke that worked when I wanted it to.


>  The old engine *died*.  Huge clouds of oil out the back, water in the
> crankcase, you know, dead.  157,000 miles, I figure I got my money's
> worth.  To rebuild the engine would have cost a LOT more than $1000 -
> $360 for gaskets, $500 for seals, $125 each for pistons, $40 per side
> for machining the housings, etc.  Those were the best prices I could
> find.  

	Sounds ugly!  Sounds like an oil o-ring and a coolant o-ring blowing
out.  That's one crazy thing about rotaries, they have a tendancy to go out
with a bang, but without really destroying anything.  The oil o-ring blowing
out would simply let the 80psi oiling system pump right into the combusiton
chamber.  Nothing is severely damaged, but it doesn't run until you tear it
apart completely anyway, so it's as good as dead.
	I assume that by $125 each for pistons you mean rotors.  Usually the
rotors don't need to be replaced.  Wear on rotaries is usually confined to a
very few parts, and rotors aren't them.  Of couse with both oil out the back
and coolant in the pan, it could be something more catastrophic than a few
blown seals, so this might not fall under the usual category.

> A very nasty gentleman at Racing Beat told me they "don't do
> engines any more" when I called; I've seen catalogs since that still
> have engine parts listed, but hey, I took 'em at their word... not that
> I'd deal with wipes like that after our brief and uncomplimentary
> conversation.

	I have had similar experiences.  Most rotary shops treat their
customers like trash becase they think they are the only people around who
understand rotaries.  Unfortunately, they are often right.  I have found
only one rotary shop I like to deal with, and it is just a little hole in
the wall south of Seattle.  I prefer, as usual to avoid the whole shop
routine and just do it myself.  Of couse, I have no money, so I haven't done
it myself, but I prefer to...


>  I have a B2000 pickup.  I know of the starter differences, but without
> being able to see the bellhousing bolt pattern it's hard to tell if
> it'll bolt up.  If it will, the flywheel/starter problem is minor.  I
> have this sneaky suspicion the rotary uses a completely weirdo bolt
> pattern.

	Probably a good bet.  When the engine is every bit as round as the
bellhousing it tends to change the way you design things.  Of course there
is always the chance that the bellhousing from the B2000 can be used.
	BTW, any idea if I was right about the B2200 having a Mitsubishi
engine? 

>  You have to bear in mind the RX is a *transportation* car.  We put
> whatever's on sale on it for tires and I only open the hood when it
> doesn't run any more.

	Oh yea, I forgot about transportation cars.  I can't afford to have
more than one car at a time, so I am used to just tinkering with whatever I
am driving.

	I have never met anyone who has had any experience with rotaries
that doesn't either love them or hate them.  If something goes wrong with
one of them, people usually write off the entire species.  Most people wont
blow off piston engines as trash after throwing a rod or breaking a piston,
but I guess rotaries get special treatment since they are relatively
mysterious.  This goes for the big guys too.  You'll notice that all the big
car companies are working on getting out two stroke engines.  Suddenly,
after somebody mentions direct injection, two strokes are ok again.  Well
wake up folks, the same can, and has been done with rotaries.  John Deere
made a few direct injection, stratified charge rotaries that ran great, had
incredible multifuel capabilities, (anything from deisel fuel, to methanol,
to jet fuel).  Just about any advantage that two strokes have over four
strokes, rotaries have too.  So why is everyone going bananas over two
strokes?  No, it's not because Mazda has exclusive rights to the rotary,
those are owned by NSU, and Mazda has expressed willingness to share a lot
of the development that they have done over the years if anyone is
interested, but nobody is.  There is the argument that tooling is already
here, but I wonder if that will end up working.  It sure didn't on the Viper
engine..    
	Personally, if it sucks in gas and spits out power, I like it, I
just wish rotaries would get a little more respect for what they are:  small
and powerful and usually pretty relable.
	Well, enough arguing with myself.  

	-Dave

----------
Posted by: Datsun Dave Coleman 



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:36:06 1992
Subject: HEADERS, MAKE MY OWN OR G
To: hotrod@dixie.com


reply to: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)

-> I'm trying to find some headers for my 429/460 motor that will fit
-> into the 55 truck the motor is going into.

 Since you said the stock manifolds fit, why not stay with them?  They
won't leak, rust out, or rattle, and you can get to the plugs.
                                                                     

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:36:09 1992
Subject: Re: 12 BANGER
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>Hob about an Allison V-12???

Funny you'd mention that.  In one of the worst things I ever did I 
passed up the opportunity to buy an Allison engine still in the military
packing crate for $100.  Boot Boot Boot (me kicking myself in the ass.)
When I was in Penn, I part time gofered for a fellow who ran an
allison-based modified tractor in tractor pulling.  1700 Cu In. Dual turbos
blowing through custom Hilborns and the stock supercharger.  Guestimate
from the way it pulled about 5000 hp on methanol.  What a gorgeous 
engine.  You get outta shape with the sled weight all the way forward
already?  No problem.  Just back off, straighten up and yank that 
80,000 lbs back up and go.  Wheels were geared for 100 mph at 
red line (4500 rpm :-)

The only problem with the allison is it is HUGE.  It's probably 
4.5 feet from the bottom of the oil sump to the top of
the cylinder heads. And it is HEAVY.  Probably at least a ton.
I remember a british dude building a limo-looking car around an allison 
back when I was a teenager.  Got written up in one of the magazines.
Think it got 2 mpg or something like that :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:36:15 1992
Subject: Re: Headers, make my own or go with shorties.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

First, check the yellow pages under performance equipment or speed equipment
I know you will find someone up there who would be more than willing to accept
money to make you a custom set of headers.
After looking at the list of header guys you have tried, I didn't see HEADERS 
BY ED  2710-fh-16th Avenue South, Minneapolis, Mn 55407  612 729-2802 FAX
612 729-5638.  This outfit was been around for years and provides kits for 
people to weld together themselves.  Infact the May 92 issue of HOT ROD, page
104 gives you details on how to order a catalog.  I am betting that a quick 
call and a credit card will hook you up with the basic components you will
need if you decide to do it yourself.
Also, Tex Smith did an article awhile back on a custom header setup for his 
"dollar a pound" roadster project in HRMx(published out of Driggs Idaho) where
he used one of ED's kits on the non traditional Pontiac inline motor.
Last idea--Have you looked through any of the pickup mags which cater to the
Fords? Some of the advertisers may offer something.  SUPER FORD MAGAZINE is 
also excellent.  Total Performance out of Michigan I believe has been written
up over the years on Ford motor swaps into Ford trucks of various types.  I don
't have their address handy but cruise a few mags or HEMMINGS and you will
probably come across it.  Good luck.  Mike Brattland
Brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil

----------
Posted by: brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil (CDR Michael Brattland)



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:36:21 1992
Subject: RE: FORD IN A MAZDA?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> > What more could you want?
->
->      About 200 hp!  ahahhahhahah!  

 I'm not impressed with the rotary.  Parts are too crazy expensive, and
even the new engine smokes, despite having all the factory emissions
controls other than all the weirdo starting doodads.  (do you really
NEED water injection, an electric motor that pumps the gas pedal, and
the most redundant weirdo Rube Goldberg system I've ever seen to
automatically cancel a MANUAL choke?  Mine didn't.)  The thing only
smokes on startup and idle, but you choke backing through your own cloud
in the morning.  Yes, the oil pump is set correctly.  Yes, I probably
got ripped by the dealer.  They claim it's still within its service
limits.  

-> >  Last summer I dropped $1000 for a factory rebuilt rotary for my
...
->      What's a rodder like you doing buying a factory engine?  Build
-> the old one with street ports, a 48mm DeLorto (sp?), a header, and

 The old engine *died*.  Huge clouds of oil out the back, water in the
crankcase, you know, dead.  157,000 miles, I figure I got my money's
worth.  To rebuild the engine would have cost a LOT more than $1000 -
$360 for gaskets, $500 for seals, $125 each for pistons, $40 per side
for machining the housings, etc.  Those were the best prices I could
find.  A very nasty gentleman at Racing Beat told me they "don't do
engines any more" when I called; I've seen catalogs since that still
have engine parts listed, but hey, I took 'em at their word... not that
I'd deal with wipes like that after our brief and uncomplimentary
conversation.

->      I wouldn't bet on it. Rotaries have the starter mounted low on
-> the driver's side next to the bellhousing.  I am pretty sure the
-> Mazda four banger has the starter next to the engine (besides, if I
-> remember correctly, and that is a big if, the B2200 has a Mitsubishi
-> engine)

 I have a B2000 pickup.  I know of the starter differences, but without
being able to see the bellhousing bolt pattern it's hard to tell if
it'll bolt up.  If it will, the flywheel/starter problem is minor.  I
have this sneaky suspicion the rotary uses a completely weirdo bolt
pattern.

 You have to bear in mind the RX is a *transportation* car.  We put
whatever's on sale on it for tires and I only open the hood when it
doesn't run any more.  AB's Capri is her pet, and she doesn't use it for
driving back and forth to work.  ('73 Capri GT, factory sunroof, 283
Chevy with Offy Dual Port, 625 Carter AFB, Saginaw 3.30 first four
speed, GM 2.29 posi rear. Yes, two twenty nine.)
                                                                                               

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:36:22 1992
Subject: Re:  Headers, make my own or go with shorties.
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 Headers by Ed sent me some stuff about how they'd sell you the stuff to 
make your own. My impression is they're a bit overpriced but of course
they think they're worth it.

 I guess the first thing to do is to realistically assess your intended
driving patterns. If you're staying around town or doing highway cruising
at 2500RPM, go with the shorties (for looks). If you plan to really
spend some time over 4000RPM then you might actually gain by going to
well-designed headers. I know I always put headers on, even though I 
hardly ever rev over 3000, but that's an esthetic thing, not logical.
Anyhow, for most street use I don't think it matters, so go with 
whatever's chrome...

----------
Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:36:24 1992
Subject: Re: 12 BANGER
To: hotrod@dixie.com

A few people tried to use Allison v-12's during the 1960's for
dragging, but found that the thjiings wouldn't rev fast enough for good
E.T.'s.  The trap speeds were insane, however!  One car I read about
used a '32 ford body and the v-12.

Many pulling tractors use the v-12's, so figuring out how to convert it
to ground speed shouldn't be that much of a problem.  I say one with a
whole row of Holly carbs.


Ed M.

----------
Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu



From rsiatl!rsiatl!hotrod Sun Apr 26 15:36:25 1992
Subject: Headers, make my own or go with shorties.
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I'm trying to find some headers for my 429/460 motor that will fit into the
55 truck the motor is going into.   So far all I have seen that will definitly
work are the shorty and block hugging variety. Actually the only one I know
will go is the J.B.A. one which has smaller openings that the stock cast
manifold which works.  Will I get any gain by going with the shorty over the
stock manifold? Or would it be worth the trouble to make my own? Or is there
some place I don't know about which makes them?  So far I have tried
Doug Thorley,
Sanderson,
Stahl,
Ed's headers,
Hooker,
Hedmann,
and a few others.

Actually, I'm kind of interested in making my own, but I've been feeling
that I'm lacking about 20 years worth of experience, and that all I'd turn
out would be something that fit but didn't perform well.  Does anyone
know of any books about the subject? Or does anyone know of someone who
makes custom headers in the San Francisco Bay area?

I could go for the mudd bogger stuff coming out of the hood...

no, not really
any ideas?
eric.

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 04:56:28 1992
Subject: RE: FORD IN A MAZDA?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> -> just wish rotaries would get a little more respect for what they are:
> -> small and powerful and usually pretty relable.
> 
>  Well, they're not *that* small - the 12A is pretty wide and fills the
> engine compartment up.  Reliable... either they run or they don't,
> rotaries seem to die pretty quick once they go, but like I said, I got
> 157,000 out of my first one.  The rotary is also one heavy mother -
> Russ' RX sat nearly two inches higher in front with the Ford engine.

	Sure looks small when you put it in a 510 engine compartment!
Mostly it is a lot shorter than the old L-series.  The 510 also went up
about an inch when we put the rotary in it.  I guess a rotary is somewhere
between a Ford engine and a Datsun engine in weight.  Of couse, the higher
ride height could be due to the fact that we practically stuffed the engine
back into the tranny tunnel when we put it in. 

>  Oddly, most of my old rotary road tests mention how poor the gas
> mileage was.  Ours gets 25-27 in average driving.  With a 3.90 rear
> axle, how could I complain?

	Yea, well, with street ports and a 48mm DeLorto it gets about 9 mpg,
gee, maybe the fact that you could crawl down the carb barrels had something
to do with that...

	-Dave

----------
Posted by: Datsun Dave Coleman 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 01:13:17 1992
Subject: Re: radar gun
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Okay, I'll bite.  How DID you calibrate it?  Enquiring minds want to know...
>

I have a small cavity with a varactor in it. I drive the varactor with
a signal generator.  The capacitor sweeps the tuning of the cavity and
has the effect of amplitude modulating the reflected signal.  Just 
compute the correct doppler, dial it in and look at the radar gun.

BTW, I learned how to radar stealth a car this weekend.  All ya
gotta do is have a kevlar or carbon fiber body and run nitro grade ignition.  
My radar gun would not even get a blip from either top fuel or funny cars.
I carried my digital storage scope yesterday to see why.  All that
came out of the microwave stage was %^&%^&%& ignition noise!
I can understand why it scrambles the on-board cameras now.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 01:05:51 1992
Subject: RE: FORD IN A MAZDA?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


->      I assume that by $125 each for pistons you mean rotors.

 Yeah.  I don't care if it wobbles widdershins around the crankshaft
instead of pumping up and down on a conrod; it's a piston to me. 


->      I have had similar experiences.  Most rotary shops treat their
-> customers like trash becase they think they are the only people
-> around who understand rotaries.  Unfortunately, they are often right.

 If the parts weren't so flipping expensive I would have redone the
original rotary.  My Haynes manual goes into it quite thoroughly.  Make
sure you don't bugger the seals or overtorque the sandwich bolts (the
whole engine looks like a stack of alternating aluminum and iron) and it
should be OK, at least according to them.  Piston-timed port induction
isn't anything new, and it's still a plain old four stroke Otto cycle
motor.  I would have *loved* to have redone the rotary.  I couldn't
afford it.

-> bellhousing it tends to change the way you design things.  Of course
-> there is always the chance that the bellhousing from the B2000 can be
-> used.

 The gearcases are identical between the rotary and piston engine, at
least as far as looking at my service manuals.  Unfortunately detachable
bellhousings seem to be primarily an American trick; like most foreign
cars, the Mazda's bellhousing is part of the transmission.  I actually
milled the housing off of one once and mounted a flange plate (the
input shaft splines were the same as the ones on the Ford 2000 I put in
Russ' RX7, and he wanted to use the rotary) but never got any further.
Actually, I never got the transmission back together.  You need a
special Mazda assembly tool and the dealer didn't have it.

 I can pick up a B2000 engine at the salvage yard for $400.  The
matching 5-speed is another $500, plus I get to use the old 5-speed as a
doorstop.  Ugh.


-> just wish rotaries would get a little more respect for what they are:
-> small and powerful and usually pretty relable.

 Well, they're not *that* small - the 12A is pretty wide and fills the
engine compartment up.  Reliable... either they run or they don't,
rotaries seem to die pretty quick once they go, but like I said, I got
157,000 out of my first one.  The rotary is also one heavy mother -
Russ' RX sat nearly two inches higher in front with the Ford engine.

 Oddly, most of my old rotary road tests mention how poor the gas
mileage was.  Ours gets 25-27 in average driving.  With a 3.90 rear
axle, how could I complain?
                                                 

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From Hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 11:50:16 1992
Subject: re: Propane Power!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

okay, supposing I made an engine with 12:1 compression, single plane
manifold (nice big open passages), headers and a mild cam.  what kind
of streetability would this engine have?  I am thinking of doing this
to my cadillac 500 cid motor that is on the stand right now, waiting
for me to get some extra time to work on it.  Cadillac motorsports
Developments does make pistons for such an application, and i have
talked to the guy and think he would work with me on building such a
wierd motor.  How does propane burn as far as heat goes? would i need
an extra heavy duty cooling system?  or would the stock one be *more*
than enough?  Also, how would different cams act with propane?  you
say that if i were to use a big cam, propane would not force me to
sacrifice low end power or drivability.  does anything need to be done
to the heads?  i would get a tighter valve spring kit with the cam.  I
have a high volume oil pump for the 500, and i am interested in how i
would work a duel-fuel setup (with gas as a substitute for when i'm
out of propane... to limp to the nearest propane station).  with 12:1
compression, I think gas would work okay...  what about timing? i was
thinking to set it at the maximum for the gas to work, and leave it
there to normally run the propane.  would i not be getting the full
potential of the propane?  

I suppose when i go to the track, i could advance the timing even
*further*...  hmmmm

of course, we're still in the planning stages, so i'm open to more
ideas...

Derek Cunningham

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From Hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 12:49:31 1992
Subject: re: Propane Power!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

another tidbit question-- what about fuel tanks?  I was thinking of
strapping two gas grill tanks in my trunk (yes there is plenty of
room)... is there anything different I should do about this for cars?
will someone have a fit with them in the trunk?  I could easily run
the two tanks together, or have seperate tanks (in case one runs
dry...) for long trips.  hmmmm...  for a gas gauge-- would i just have
to put a pressure gauge in the dash next to my other gauges (speedo,
etc)?  all kinds of things to think about, but the more i think about
the idea, the more i like it.

Derek Cunningham

P.S.  not to mention keeping the world happy by lowering the massive
bad emmisions output of that 500...  ;*)

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 13:11:29 1992
Subject: re: Propane Power!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>another tidbit question-- what about fuel tanks?  I was thinking of
>strapping two gas grill tanks in my trunk (yes there is plenty of
>room)... is there anything different I should do about this for cars?
>will someone have a fit with them in the trunk?  

For god's sake, NO.  Not only will you not be able to get them filled
(it is against DOT regulations to place a propane grill tank in an
enclosed space in a vehicle) but you've created a deathtrap.  Vehicle
propane tanks have multiple safety features designed to help them
survive in a crash.  Among them, minimum wall thickness, reenforced
and gusseted penetrations, crash rated mounting brackets, an internal excess 
flow valve, an internal stop valve.  The excess flow valve is critically
important.  If you're in a wreck where the tank comes loose and the 
outlet piping is ripped off, the internal valve detects the excess flow
and slams shut.  Since this tank will likely still be in the vehicle,
the life you save will most likely be your own.

If the DOT ever saw the installation, they would likely impound your car.
Methods of seeing the installation include having a propane dealer call
and report you.  There have been a number of deaths due to propane 
explosions from leaking grill tanks so the DOT is serious about this.

>hmmmm...  for a gas gauge-- would i just have
>to put a pressure gauge in the dash next to my other gauges (speedo,
>etc)?  all kinds of things to think about, but the more i think about
>the idea, the more i like it.

No, you still have to have a conventional gas gauge.  A vehicle tank
can be fitted with a float sender.  The vapor pressure, and thus what
a pressure gauge would read, remains constant at a given temperature
until all liquid is gone.  A pressure gauge would make a good tank
temperature gauge.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 15:55:24 1992
Subject: copper head gaskets
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I was having problems blowing head gaskets on my top nitrous setting
(225 hp) so I tried some soft-copper head gaskets from Warrior Racing.
I have a .060 over Pontiac 400, and Pontiacs are a bit lacking in number
of head bolts (4 per cylinder).
  At any rate, the copper gaskets blew began leaking badly within miles, blew
the radiator cap off from the pressure. I reinstalled but this time sprayed themwith copper-kote. They blew in about 20 miles that time, as in combustion
pressure getting into the cooling system. My block could not be O-ringed as the
shops involved said there wasn't enough room between the bores. The 3rd time
I tried laying 0.010" copper wire in circles around the bores, this cut into
the head gaskets and stopped combustion leakage, but now the coolant and oil
passages were leaking into each other.
  I finally gave up and went back to Fel-Pros. Does anyone have experience
with copper gaskets? In retrospect they really seem like a bad idea since there
are no higher local pressures around the oil/water passages or bores. Seems
like they ought to work great with O-ringing, if the rest would seal up.
  Or alternately, got any good tips on sealing Pontiac heads (or other) under
extreme pressures? I tried H-O's trick of using stock steel gaskets with wire
laid in between the bores, but stock metal gaskets do not have valve reliefs
cut into them as my block does, and the result is gasket hanging out in the
combustion chamber which soon burns through.
  Any tips would be most appreciated...

Randy Norian

----------
Posted by: TWLN5@ISUVAX.IASTATE.EDU



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 16:31:26 1992
Subject: Re: copper head gaskets
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>I was having problems blowing head gaskets on my top nitrous setting
>(225 hp) so I tried some soft-copper head gaskets from Warrior Racing.
>I have a .060 over Pontiac 400, and Pontiacs are a bit lacking in number
>of head bolts (4 per cylinder).
>  At any rate, the copper gaskets blew began leaking badly within miles, blew
>the radiator cap off from the pressure. I reinstalled but this time sprayed 
>copper-kote. They blew in about 20 miles that time, as in combustion
>pressure getting into the cooling system. My block could not be O-ringed as the
>shops involved said there wasn't enough room between the bores. The 3rd time
>I tried laying 0.010" copper wire in circles around the bores, this cut into
>the head gaskets and stopped combustion leakage, but now the coolant and oil
>passages were leaking into each other.

At the Southern Nationals this weekend, I strolled into the pit of Joe
Amato after he blew in the semi and looked at a set of heads laying on
the table. (hey you can get away with anything if you look like you know
what you're doing.  There is a very thin, much thinner than I've ever 
used, stainless steel O-ring around each combustion chamber.  I would
guess the wire to be no more than 18 gauge.  I did not see a joint so 
the O-ring appeared to be manufactured as such instead of just wire laid
in a groove.  It almost looked like the O-rings had been pressed into
the aluminum head.  On one side of the chamber the ring had to come to
within 0.010-0.015" of the bore.  All were identical so this was not 
an accident.  Of course he DID blow a gasket in the semi.... :-(

>  I finally gave up and went back to Fel-Pros. Does anyone have experience
>with copper gaskets? In retrospect they really seem like a bad idea since there
>are no higher local pressures around the oil/water passages or bores. Seems
>like they ought to work great with O-ringing, if the rest would seal up.

>  Or alternately, got any good tips on sealing Pontiac heads (or other) under
>extreme pressures? I tried H-O's trick of using stock steel gaskets with wire
>laid in between the bores, but stock metal gaskets do not have valve reliefs
>cut into them as my block does, and the result is gasket hanging out in the
>combustion chamber which soon burns through.

I went through hell and back trying to keep the heads on my 35 psi boost
Datsun Z-car engines.  Like yours, the head is a bit shy of head bolts.
Among the things I've tried, solid copper headgasket, drilling the block
and head for 1/2" chrome-moly studs torqued to 200 ft-lbs and a wide
variety of elixirs.  The copper head gasket worked if annealed dead soft
after each use and if used with O-ringing.

Then I decided to use science :-)  My final solution required little work
and has been 100% reliable even in the face of engine wrecking detonation :-(
There are two steps involved.  This technique presumes an aluminum head.
Should work on iron heads but I've not tested it.

The first involves a standard FelPro gasket. Get some 16 ga 304
stainless wire.  heat a length of it red hot and allow to cool
slowly until it is anealed.  Carefully scrap the gunk from the
head side of the combustion chamber sealing ring on the gasket. 
Bend the  stainless wire into a circle the radius of the center
of this sealing ring. Using a superglue wire tacking kit
available for <20 bux from electronic supply houses, tack the
wire to the center of the sealing ring.  The  ends may either
butt together or better, slightly overlap.  The wire tacking kit
contains superglue and an accelerator that makes the glue set on
contact.  It is designed for tacking ECO wires to circuit
boards. 

Step two.  Prep the block and head.  Both should be freshly
decked and clean. Obtain a common electric engraving pen of the
type used for anti-theft markings.  Turn it on full stroke.  The
tip must be very sharp.  If not, sharpen it using a standard
green carbide wheel.  Slant it at a 45 degree angle away from
the direction of travel.  Imagine you're using it to plow up a
furrow of metal from the head or block.  Use a very loose grip
so the tool can bounce.  Rapidly stroke across the gasket
surface.  The tip should bounce off the surface of the metal 120
times a second.  Properly done, it will raise little divots
about every half millimeter or so.  The top side of the divot
will be very sharp. I test my technique by dragging a shop rag
across the surface to see if the divots pick off lint. (boy I
wish I could include a drawing!)  Treat the entire surface with
this technique.  When finished, the surface should feel like
coarse sandpaper and have a sparkling sheen when viewed in
bright light.  

                    /  <- engraver
				  /
                /   <<<- direction of travel.
---------------------------- <- deck surface

How it works.  

The stainless steel wire bites into the gasket with tremendous clamping
force and at the same time partially embeds itself into the aluminum
head.  The little divots dig into the gasket material and after the 
first heatup, have gasket material extruded into them. they form an
interlocking matrix that grips the gasket with great tenacity.
In fact, the only downside involves the fact that the gasket is clamped
so tightly that it becomes difficult to remove.

I assemble the head using as much torque as I can get away with.  On 
Z motors, I know this is about 100 ft-lbs (60 is spec.)  I let it soak
awhile and loosen the bolts and torque to spec.  This ensures the
wire gets a good bite.  I warm the engine by running it on the test 
stand, let it cool and loosen and retorque again.

Hint for quickly warming an engine in the shop:  I use the once-through
cooling method.  Garden hose in the pump, waste water out the thermostat
and out to the drain.  Instead of cold water, connect the hose to
the water heater and set the thermostat to 180 degrees.  This will rapidly
warm the engine before you crank it the first time.  Makes it a lot 
easier to crank.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 16:44:09 1992
Subject: Re: Cam break-in
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>set of springs and lifters. In general, for all but the most agressive
>cam designs, the recommended springs have moderate rates. For cam profiles
>designed for the street, I've never encountered a spring with enough
>pressure to shear the oil/lube film and cause failure during run-in. I'm
>not saying it couldn't happen, but if it did, I can't say I'd feel real
>comfortable the second time around with lighter springs as the "fix".

Why would that be?  Why would you be uncomfortable giving the surfaces
a chance to mate before subjecting them to working pressures.  This is
little different than the well known fact that newly fitted pistons
will often seize if fully loaded before being broken in.

>You also mentioned the use of STP as one of the ingredients in "Dr. John's
>Fantasmagloric Cam Paste". I try to refrain from knocking products (see 
>the Slick 50 flame wars in r.a.t.), but I wouldn't use that stuff if Andy
>Granitelli was my dear old dad. The only cam I ever saw "go flat" during
>break-in had the lifters dipped in STP prior to installation. Two motors
>were built side by side using identical components in the same shop, one
>used moly-disulfide, the other STP. The one with the moly lube ran all
>season (circle track), and so did the other as soon as the cam and lifters
>were replaced and run in with moly lube.

You are aware, I hope, that Dow Corning Moly 77 IS PURE powdered 
moly disulphide?  I would not trust STP - or any other liquid - alone
on high shear applications like cam lobes.  The combination works
really well.  The moly gives the needed extreme pressure protection
while the STP provides a very strong film strength.

>I know it's not always scientific to tailor your behavior based on some
>one else's experiences. You usually don't have access to all the factors
>that led to the destructive event; which makes it easy to draw incorrect
>conclusions. With regard to STP, what I saw convinced me to steer clear
>of the stuff.

A minor point of interest.  I saw several top fuel mechanics this weekend
using pure STP as the assembly lube.  ... Mmmm damn, memory is failing
me.  I dictated notes to my pocket dictaphone but it's in my wife's car.
I'll cite some specific names as soon as I retrieve it.

>Most cam manufacturers specify moly-disulfide and some even recommend the
>use of GM's Engine Oil Supplement (as Ron mentioned). I've always had very
>good results with this approach.

I've had 100% good luck with my mix in the 20  years I've been
using it. This includes engines that were delivered directly to
customers, a result of which was I had no control over the
breakin.  I have no doubt that today's commercial breakin lubes are as
good.  When I concocted my mix, moly was very new and not
generally available and "cam lubes" of the day sucked bilge
water. The reason I continue to use and recommend it, aside from
the fact  that it works, is Moly 77 is fairly cheap if bought
from an industrial wholesaler (no automotive markup) and a 1 lb
can will last a lifetime. 

A related lube I use for ball and roller bearings (mostly a motorcycle
issue) is Moly 77 in vaseline.  The vaseline is thick enough to stick around 
to get the engine running and then dissolves in the oil without residue like
grease would leave.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Apr 27 16:52:04 1992
Subject: re: ABS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>>
>> I keep hearing "someone" is marketing an ABS retrofit kit for older
>>cars.   Does anyone have a name and address?
>>
>>  I'm not interested in the idiot "Safety Braker" chamber doodad that
>>splices into the brake line.  It's an old 1970s ripoff gimmick not being
>>remarketed as an "ABS" unit.  They're just a spring loaded chamber and a
>>bleeder valve; all they do is increase pedal travel.

When I ordered a Pangra Kit for my Pinto, I also got some sales information
on an ABS device they were also selling.  It splices into the brake lines
like the old "Safety Braker" did, but it is definitely not the "Safety
Braker".  The "Safety Braker" went for about $29.95 back in the '70's; (yes,
I got one, but I never installed it) this new device costs around $300, for
which you get two units plus all the installation hardware.

The sales literature goes on to say that it's made of stainless steel, 
and is or is adapted from a device used on airplane landing gear. They've cycle
tested it millions of times without failure, and, of course, they have
the usual test data about how much it improves braking.  I can post an
extract from the literature and the address if you're interested. Don't know 
the validity of their claims, since I've never used it, nor know anyone who 
has (except for the dealer).

-- 
Derek Deeter                           derek_deeter@mentorg.com


----------
Posted by: derekd@apd.MENTORG.COM (Derek Deeter)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 02:50:39 1992
Subject: RE: rust stripping
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Well, While I am no expert..I do dabble a little in body work...
and my 2 cents worth begin with this story...my step father bought a 
factory replacement fender from gm and was told that he should strip 
all the paint off before painting it again..so He bought some of
that aviation stripper that you can get at a hardware store...
while it dod the job...it took a lot of work to get all the paint off.
A wire brush works nicely...but tends to leave small groove marks in the
body when I use them and they are a bit*h to sand out with wet n dry..,.

What I like to use is a small grinder to take off alot of the heavy rust
and then a DA orbital grinder to smooth it out or just use that on the rt
rust itself...of course...many people may not have access to tools like these,
but I tell you, it is amazing what you can do when you have the right tools!!

as for blasting...the aforementioned stepfather bought a sandblaster also..
he decided he would use it to clean the under side of a car he is working
on (two actually, a 70 chevelle 454 ls-6 and a 72 malibu convertable, soon 
to have a 396 transplant...o yeah, it is a convertable also)
				             ^whoops, said that twice
anyway, he bought a cowl induction hood for it, which had a little surface rust on it, so in stead of sanding it by had...he sand blasted the entire thing!!!
While I am no expert...I know better than to do that!!!...so he has a nice
destorted peice of metal siting on the car with a lot of pits and grooves
in it...so may be I can convince him to buy a bead blaster...I have heard that
they  work realy great to remove paint, light rust, and go to the metal with
out causing any structural metal damage...any body have a coment on bead 
blasting???...

well, thats m inexperinced opinion....

----------
Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 04:41:15 1992
Subject: Re: RADAR GUN
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I've never been to a national event yet (watch for me at Maple Grove
>in September), but they sure sound like one really laid back place
>if a guy with a storage scope and a radar gun can look over everyone's
>shoulders in the pits.  What do the people next to you in the stands say?
>More power to you!

Well I DID draw a crowd everytime I got the radar gun out.  The scope
looks like a  large DVM so it did not attract too much attention.

One motorcycle Pro Stock tuner did ask me if I'd go out on the 
road Friday night with him for a bit of impromptu tuning.  I was
game but he decided not to :-)  

The laid-back attitude in the pits is one of the nicest things about
NHRA competition, particularly in contrast to the NASCAR types who
stay sequestered in isolated pits.  I can only stand around and 
marvel at how the top guns handle fans.  I stood around Don
Garlits' pit and watched in amazement.  He does a lot of his own 
wrenching and so was very busy.  He had all kinds of problems
including grenaded motors.  Every time he'd get near the rope around
the pit, almost pitiful hero worship would start.  he'd invariably
stop whatever he was doing and sign a few autographs and generally
be a nice guy.  I felt uncomfortable just listening to some of the 
Elvis-style worship.

Again unlike the NASCAR types, where everything gets covered with 
blankets when in public view, nothing much seems to be secret.
I saw several instances where the crew chief would set a head assembly
on a table near the ropes where spectators could look at it.  Several
teams did not even bother with ropes.  people are pretty good about 
staying out of their way.

BTW, Garlits' two min. Schauers kicks ass on Eddie Hill's dachund. :-)

About the only negative things I can say about NHRA events - and
they are biggies - have to do with money.  It cost me over a
hundred bux for all three days with pit passes.  I can sorta
tolerate that but to pay that much and then have to sit though
hours of commercials (yes,  commercials) is very offensive. 
They had the "Winstonvision", a stadium=style big screen TV
mounted on a trailer, there.  Anytime engines were not running,
commercials were on the screen and on the PA.  Worse, they could
only sell a few  commercials so we had to listen to the same
ones over and over and over and over and over...  
Made you want to wear your ear protectors all the time.

Speaking of hearing protectors, I have a set of electronic protectors.
These have microphones and amplifiers equipped with squelch built
into ear muffs.  The squelch triggers on 90 db noise. They are 
designed to be used for shooting where you can hear normally
except for when the gun goes off.  The microphones are very 
directional and very sensitive.  An unexpected benefit at the track
is the fact that one can stand at the edge of the pit and clearly
hear all the conversations taking place within.  

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 09:22:56 1992
Subject: Cam breaking
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Well, all the talk about cam break-in must have jinxed my engine.  Needless 
to say, I'll be putting in a cam soon... :-( (or is that a :-) not sure yet)

Anyway, I started my car (1981 Z28) the other day, and heard a small ticking.
Great, I have to adjust the rockers again...  Well, at least its not the cam
(can't be, I've been sucking the doors of Mustangs, IROC 350's and a GN
here and there...)  Well, it got progressively louder over a couple of days,
so yesterday, I pull the drivers side valve cover to see whats wrong (hoping
it's just a rocker nut coming loose.)  Hmm, which little pecker is making
all that noise... oh, there it is, #1 exhaust valve.  Ok, adjust it up,
ticking goes away.  Let it sit a minute, ticking comes back.  Hmm.  adjust it
up again.  Ticking goes away.  Let it sit a minute, ticking comes back.
!)@($&##&%^  Try one more time for good measure, ticking comes back.
!)@($&##&%^ (this time a little louder.)  Well, now I know I have to pull the
intake and replace the lifters.  Oh, well.

Hmm, while I'm here, let's see what else is up.  Hey, check out how far
these valves move.  Cool.  Except one, #1 intake.  Right next to the #2
intake.  Hmm, #2 intake: almost 1/2". #1 intake: 1mm.  #)(*#&@^%!@$ (this
time real loud.)  Oh, well, gotta replace the cam too.  Bummer days.  Well,
anyone waiting for the time trials on my car with a stock cam, keep waiting,
it's not getting a stock cam this time.

Actually, I have a cam I've been hesitating to install 'cause it's kinda fun
having a stock engine (well, guts of it anyway) and still being real fast
without juice.  But, hey, I can deal with a little extra oomph.. who couldn't?
Only problem is, I can't put it in until the weekend of May 23 at the earliest
(I'll be in CA for two weekends, and this coming weekend I've already got
un-revocable plans. :-( )

Ok, here's the specs:
Adv. duration:            292 Intake/ 292 Exhaust
cam duration @ .050:      230 Intake/ 230 Exhaust
cam lift:                .320 Intake/.320 Exhaust
valve lift:              .480 Intake/.480 Exhaust (assumes 1.5 ratio rockers)
lobe centers:             107 Intake/ 111 Exhaust

When I bought this cam, I talked with the technical cam dude about gear ratios,
stall converters, weight of car, compression, etc, etc for about 1.5 hours,
and we decided on this cam.  We figured it'd give a nice fat power band and
not too high either.  Anyway, any suggestions/comments?  Oh, and lets make
sure the next discussion isn't about blown engines, ok? :-) :-) :-)

-- Steve


----------
Posted by: stm0@gte.com (Steven McClure)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 12:23:22 1992
Subject: Re: rust stripping
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>does anyone have any experience with rust stripping whole cars?
>in particular is chem tank dipping better then blasting or using
>a wirebrush?
>
>----------
>Posted by: julietbnc!dxs@csn.org (Dan Stanger)

Having it dipped is the best way to go. It will clean out the pits
that are hard and time consuming to do and will also get all the
inside hidden areas that you can not get to. You have to make sure
the car is disassembled and all rubber and plastic is removed. Don't
forget to reseam seal areas that need it when you get it back.

Wire brushing can be a real time consumer. If all you have is some
small areas and no major rust then this is OK. For larger area use
a grinder, will be much quicker. 

I don't sand blast very many body pieces because it can warp thin
sheetmetal. It also gets into everything, down in cracks and seams
that can cause moisture to get trapped and cause more problems. I've
heard of some places using walnut shells or plastic pellets to sand
blast with that doesn't warp thin metal like sand does. 

   Bill Drake   -   bill@ecn.purdue.edu

   47 Ford Coupe////454/AT/3:00//// the "Fat Rat"
   69 Camaro convertible////327/AT/2:73
   73 Camaro LT

----------
Posted by: bill@ecn.purdue.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 13:50:04 1992
Subject: Re: rust stripping
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I don't sand blast very many body pieces because it can warp thin
>sheetmetal. It also gets into everything, down in cracks and seams
>that can cause moisture to get trapped and cause more problems. I've
>heard of some places using walnut shells or plastic pellets to sand
>blast with that doesn't warp thin metal like sand does. 
>

Seems to me like the main reason blasting warps metal is that it 
locally heats the impact zone.  I have an attachment to my 
high pressure washer that sand blasts using water instead of air as
the propellent.  Very effective and no heat.  I've not experienced
any warpage using this device. Available from Northern Hydraulic for
about $50.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 14:22:25 1992
Subject: Re:  Cam breaking
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 I can't picture a cam wearing down that fast, that you could adjust the lash 
and have the ticking return so quickly. Here's a couple of things you might
check...

... is the rocker arm stud for that lobe still the same height as the others?
I've had problems with stud breakage and they can pull out too (rarely). Is
the rocker in good shape? The ball can get pulled through the socket if there
is a crack.

... maybe the lifter is fried; it may not expand properly (gummed check ball,
broken spring, etc.)

... try removing the rocker arm and check pushrod travel without the valve 
spring load. (keep light pressure on the pushrod to make the lifter follow the
cam). See if the travel matches #3 cylinder. If the unloaded travel is the same
then it's something other than the cam. 

----------
Posted by: jws@cica23.mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 14:28:29 1992
Subject: Re: rust stripping
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 
> >does anyone have any experience with rust stripping whole cars?
> >in particular is chem tank dipping better then blasting or using
> >a wirebrush?
> >
> >----------
> >Posted by: julietbnc!dxs@csn.org (Dan Stanger)
> 
> Having it dipped is the best way to go. It will clean out the pits
> that are hard and time consuming to do and will also get all the
> inside hidden areas that you can not get to. You have to make sure
> the car is disassembled and all rubber and plastic is removed. Don't
> forget to reseam seal areas that need it when you get it back.
> 
> Wire brushing can be a real time consumer. If all you have is some
> small areas and no major rust then this is OK. For larger area use
> a grinder, will be much quicker. 
> 
> I don't sand blast very many body pieces because it can warp thin
> sheetmetal. It also gets into everything, down in cracks and seams
> that can cause moisture to get trapped and cause more problems. I've
> heard of some places using walnut shells or plastic pellets to sand
> blast with that doesn't warp thin metal like sand does. 
> 
>    Bill Drake   -   bill@ecn.purdue.edu
> 
>    47 Ford Coupe////454/AT/3:00//// the "Fat Rat"
>    69 Camaro convertible////327/AT/2:73
>    73 Camaro LT
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: bill@ecn.purdue.edu
> 
  When I built my 48 Chevy sedan delivery I had it dipped, the chemicals seeped
  out of the seams for about 3 or 4 years (underneath). 2 yrs ago I hand stripped
  my 76 chevy lowrider using aircraft stripper (can be purchased at your friend-  ly auto paint store) I stripped the hole truck on thanksgiving weekend, no      seepage, worked great but use rubber gloves and a mask and get lots of fresh
  air. You will also need diferent widths of putty knives and steel wool.
  Good luck.> 
> 

----------
Posted by: Dave Kimble 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 14:35:46 1992
Subject: RE: rust stripping
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 buy a bead blaster...I have heard that
> they  work realy great to remove paint, light rust, and go to the metal with
> out causing any structural metal damage...any body have a coment on bead 
> blasting???...
> 
> well, thats m inexperinced opinion....
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu
> 
Well ZAO61, I'm here to tell you that GLASS-bead blasting *WILL* distort
any thin sheet metal. It works great on crusty old obsolete-but-irreplaceable
carburetors.


----------
Posted by: johnson@yuba.wrs.com (David Johnson)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 14:48:02 1992
Subject: sand blasting
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I thought the reason why sandblasting warps metal is because it slightly
dents the surface which pushes metal out around the impact area. The metal
tries to recover and responds by shrinking. If only the surface of one side
shrinks then the result is a curved or warped piece of metal.  I doubt that
one could identically match both sides and come out even, however.

I've been wrong before though.

I know that shot peening is somewhat like this, so actually I might have it
backwards. Doesn't shot peening yield a compressed surface? Then when the
part is loaded under tension, it can take the normal tensile loads plus
the extra amount the peening provides. Of course the peening also prevents
cracks from growing due to the irregular surface.  

So maybe sandblasting would cause the surface to grow...  
either way I don't think its heat that causes the problem.

eric.

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 14:54:13 1992
Subject: Re:  Cam breaking
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Um, I guess I wasn't that clear the first time:  The ticking was coming
from the #1 exhaust valve.  Adjusting the rocker just quieted it down
for a minute or so, until the lifter bled down again.  The problem for
that valve is a weak (or collapsing) lifter, that's why I figured pulling
the intake and replacing the lifters.

Then, for sh*ts and giggles, I started checking other things.  That's
when I discovered the #1 intake valve was barely moving, and derived
that the cam was relatively flat on that lobe.  I checked the rockers and
balls and studs, they are all fine.  So, I have 2 problems: a bad lifter
and a bad cam.  Two un-related (well, kinda) problems.  I wouldn't have 
noticed the bad cam without the lifter going bad, or at least not right
away.

-- Steve

----------
Posted by: stm0@gte.com (Steven McClure)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 16:43:26 1992
Subject: Re: sand blasting
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I thought the reason why sandblasting warps metal is because it slightly
>dents the surface which pushes metal out around the impact area. The metal
>tries to recover and responds by shrinking. If only the surface of one side
>shrinks then the result is a curved or warped piece of metal.  I doubt that
>one could identically match both sides and come out even, however.

I'm sure that if you lam down 90 degrees on a piece of metal with 200 psi sand, 
denting can be part or most of the problem.  

>I know that shot peening is somewhat like this, so actually I might have it
>backwards. Doesn't shot peening yield a compressed surface? Then when the
>part is loaded under tension, it can take the normal tensile loads plus
>the extra amount the peening provides. Of course the peening also prevents
>cracks from growing due to the irregular surface.  

Yep.

>So maybe sandblasting would cause the surface to grow...  
>either way I don't think its heat that causes the problem.


"Sheet metal Handbook", Ron Fourier, HP books covers this topic.  It is
also quite easy to test on a scrap piece of metal. Put your finger behind
the sheet and blast away.  Note how hot the metal gets.  Or if you're
using a bead blast booth, blast a finger of the glove and note how
hot it gets.

Supporting evidence is the fact that water-based blasting deliveres
much more mass to the surface (1500 psi, 3 gpm in my case) than air
and yet it does not distort the metal.  Unless one blasts a fragile
part that is :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 16:51:39 1992
Subject: Re: rust stripping
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>when water is used for blasting do you still have a problem of it
>(the sand) getting trapped in cracks?  

Yes but not as bad.  I don't generally blast large areas that have joints.
I use it mainly for removing rust spots, preping rusted through 
areas for welding or lead wiping and so on.

>do you have a number for northern hydraulic?

The local number is 404 590-1114.  They also have a nationwide 800 number
that I don't have handy.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 15:47:32 1992
Subject: RE: rust stripping
To: hotrod@dixie.com

    Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1992 14:01 EDT
    From: hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu (The Hotrod List)

     buy a bead blaster...
    > Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu

    Well ZAO61, I'm here to tell you that GLASS-bead blasting *WILL* distort
    any thin sheet metal. It works great on crusty old obsolete-but-irreplaceable
    carburetors.

    ----------
    Posted by: johnson@yuba.wrs.com (David Johnson)

As far as sheet metal is concerned, glass bead blasting is essentially
the same as sand blasting.  With sand the particles have sharp corners
and so tend to cut into the material quicker.  Glass beads a smoother.
But they are also hard, and they do heat -- and so warp -- thin
metal.  Where glass beads are good is that they are like zillions of
tiny hammers.  This serves to harden a surface. It also tends to leave
the surface smoother, especially on the small scale, than sand blasting.  
As such, it's a better choice for restoring mechanical parts, like your
crusty carburators; for sheet metal its practically the same as sand.

Plastic beads, nut shells, etc are soft so they dont do much to the
metal, neither heating nor cutting.  For the same reason, they are also
(apparently) not so great at getting rust.

A comment on roughness from wire brushing, sanding  or sand blasting: 
Other than possible warpage from sand blasting, or deep gouges from a
disk grinder, I dont see why the roughness should be a problem.  You
dont want the metal to be shiny and smooth like stainless anyway,
otherwise the paint cant get a bite.  The minor scratches that you
get, are easily filled with primer;  you can use a high(er)-build
primer, if you really need to.
Q: Do any of you with experience in ultra fine paint finishes have
problems with that approach?

\begin{second-hand-info}
Dipping is the best to get all the rust and junk out.  But there are two
problems.
  1) has already been mentioned: you've got to flush all the crap out,
which may not be practical.
  2) Now that the dip has cleaned all the rust -- and paint -- from all
those corners that you cant get to to clean.  You also cant get to them
to repaint them! (or whatever protectant your religion calls for).

In recent issues of Classic Auto Restorer were articles on both
bead-blasting and dipping.  As I recall, one or both were a bit too
friendly with the proprietors.  If there's interest, I can look 'em up
and post them, or summaries.

bruce
miller@cam.nist.gov

----------
Posted by: Bruce R. Miller 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 18:26:45 1992
Subject: Re: PROPANE POWER!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>The reason i mention this is because the only contact i have had with
>propane is using the small bottles of it for a cooking stove on winter
>camping trips.  after leaving them out overnight, we couldn't get
>enough gas to come out of the bottle to cook with.  

Those little Gaz et al stoves use BUTANE which boils at atmospheric at
29 degrees.  I've seen some Gaz cylinders that claim a mix of propane
and butane for low temperature use.  Can't work.  The mix is not ansetropic
and so the propane will boil off first and leave the butane.

>also, what about tank puncture?  is this a problem?  or would the line
>tearing be the only thing i would need to worry about during an
>accident... 

A DOT-approved tank has a minimum wall thickness and has to pass a series
of crash tests.  In the years I had the welding shop where we sold 
propane, I never heard of a single vehicle tank getting punctured.

If you did have a puncture, the danger would be more acute but would
pass rapidly.  The propane would evaporate rather rapidly but would
form an explosive cloud for a bit.  It would dissipate much faster than
would the same amount of gasoline.

I'd feel safer in a propane powered vehicle if for no other reason than
the tank has to meet rigid specs and is really tough.  Compared to a
sheetmetal gasoline tank, it's a real win.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Apr 28 19:58:52 1992
Subject: COPPER HEAD GASKETS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> I was having problems blowing head gaskets on my top nitrous setting
-> (225 hp) so I tried some soft-copper head gaskets from Warrior
-> Racing. I have a .060 over Pontiac 400, and Pontiacs are a bit
-> lacking in number of head bolts (4 per cylinder).

 *Most* engines have four bolts per cylinder.  Only a few don't.

 You shouldn't be blowing gaskets with a 225hp nitrous unit.  Are you
absolutely, positively sure the deck and head surfaces are flat, and
have no scratches or other imperfections?  Have you tried increasing the
head bolt torque slightly?  You don't have a heavy air conditioning
compressor or a torque strap attached to a head?  You're absolutely,
positively sure you don't have a detonation problem?

 If you actually are building enough cylinder pressure to blow gaskets,
I sure hope you're running the Super Duty or HO forged rods!
              

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 29 11:46:53 1992
Subject: Re: sand blasting
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I had some small sheet metal parts to clean, and used the blasting equipment we 
have here where I work.  

First I used a water/sand blaster.  It got off most of the rust, but took a 
long time and didn't get off all the real bad rust spots.  It's messy (even in 
the booth!) and takes a long time.

Then I used a shot/grit blaster with a relatively fine grade of grit.  This 
stuff cleans WITH AUTHORITY!  The rust goes away much faster, but the finish 
really suffers; really rough and bad looking.

Finally I used a glass bead blaster.  This took off the rust better than the 
sand blaster, but not as well as the grit blaster.  It did leave the best 
finish, though.  The only thing I didn't like was the fact that it kept 
clogging up.

Even though the finish is hardened by the glass beads, I still think it would 
take primer; it had valleys and hills in it.


MTM 'Matt the Man' Walsh
mtm@walsh.dme.battelle.org
90 GT 5.0 5sp convert.

What he said was this.

----------
Posted by: MTM 'Matt the Man' Walsh 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 29 12:53:44 1992
Subject: Copper Head Gaskets
To: hotrod@dixie.com

< *Most* engines have four bolts per cylinder.  Only a few don't.

Small block chevy comes to mind, which gets 5 bolts around each bore...
this is a significant advantage. I believe there are others with similar
bolt patterns, but I'm not an expert on this.
 
< You shouldn't be blowing gaskets with a 225hp nitrous unit.  Are you
  Thanks for the terrific info on head sealing. I will definitely try it.
>Now what about this Datsun?!! Street car, strip car, road course..?

Street sleeper.  Looks stock except for the 3.5" exhaust out the back.
I estimate from acceleration calculations about 400 hp.

>How fast is it?  

Well it's not right now.  Broke a piston.  I was out on the interstate
with the radar gun mounted on the dash.  I had 10 psi of boost dialed
in, was wide open, had 155 on the radar gun, reached down to start running
the boost up and... A fleck of scale stopped the water injection nozzle
up.  Instant detonation and piston kit.  *Sob*.  New pistons are on the
way.

>Are you intercooled?  

I will be this time.  I'd relied on heavy water injection before.  Aside
from the reliability problem, it uses WAY too much water to be a 
practical street car.   That loud pedal just screams to be mashed.
You can  almost hear the water flow when you do.

It's a riot.  The engine makes enough torque that you can see the hood
line distort when the boost hits.  God, have I had fun with the 
string back glove crowd :-)

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 29 15:21:58 1992
Subject: Re: copper head gaskets
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Here's an old trick for removing heads: with the engine still assembled
except for having the intake manifold removed, loosen the head bolts a
little bit (1 turn is enough) and crank the engine.  The compression
pressure has always been high enough for me to get even stubborn heads
to pop loose.  With the head loose you can now remove the valve gear,
remove the head bolts, and lift the head off.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: btree!hale@ucsd.edu (Bob Hale)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 03:57:35 1992
Subject: RE: COPPER HEAD GASKETS
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> >Are you intercooled?
->
-> I will be this time.  I'd relied on heavy water injection before.
-> Aside from the reliability problem, it uses WAY too much water to be
-> a practical street car.   That loud pedal just screams to be mashed.
-> You can  almost hear the water flow when you do.

 What type of water injection are you running?  Two stage pump, or just
pressurized feed from the water bottle?

 My Yamaha is extremely sensitive to ambient air temperature, enough
that it wheelies in 50-ish degree weather and just pings in 100 degree
weather.  It's running a blow-through setup, with the air cleaner under
the seat, turbo down by the swingarm (1.5 inch impeller - 250,000 RPM!)
and pressure tube coming back up to a plenum on the carb rack.  There's
no practical way to intercool it without looking pretty strange, so I've
been considering water injection to bring the inlet charge temp down.
I can inject it into the air cleaner housing where it has a two foot
drop, goes through the compressor and (hopefully) gets vaporized, and
has a couple of feet of inlet tract to cool the air.  Since it's blowing
uphill, hopefully puddling wouldn't be a problem if I get carried away
with the water.

 The pressure curve of the little Hitachi turbo is nearly vertical -
around 4500 RPM, the boost needle just slams from one stop to the other
as the boost comes in.  Sorta like riding a two stroke with expansion
chambers.


-> It's a riot.  The engine makes enough torque that you can see the
-> hood line distort when the boost hits.

 At 15psi on the Yamaha, it's like a giant Foot out of Heaven, booting
you right in the arse.


-> God, have I had fun with the string back glove crowd :-)

 You mean those cretins who drive *stock* cars?  
               

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 05:57:11 1992
Subject: RE: COPPER HEAD GASKETS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> What type of water injection are you running?  Two stage pump, or just
>pressurized feed from the water bottle?

I have a ~3 gallon tank I fabricated to tuck in below the battery in
the Z engine compartment.  this is pressureized from the manifold.
Water flows from this through an adjustable holdoff valve set to 5 psi,
through a holly carb jet and into the intake right in front of the 
turbine inlet.  This provides flow proportional to boost pressure and
is lots simpler than the electronic ones.  I've considered a 
block arrangement whereby the flow is blocked until the knock sensor
detects detonation.  If I still need water injection after the addition
of the intercooler, I might do that.

> My Yamaha is extremely sensitive to ambient air temperature, enough

It would work on the bike but I'm not sure where you'd put the water.

> At 15psi on the Yamaha, it's like a giant Foot out of Heaven, booting
>you right in the arse.

I can just imagine.

>-> God, have I had fun with the string back glove crowd :-)
>
> You mean those cretins who drive *stock* cars?  

Particularly the portch/corvette/infiniti/lexus/bmw/benz crowd.
Funniest look I ever got was from this dood in a (what's that high
buck porche that looks like a turd on wheels?  929?) complete with
the little hat, the gloves, the glasses and all that stuff that 
I blasted onto the emergency lane :-)  

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 13:30:11 1992
Subject: On turbos and Yamahas
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>> At 15psi on the Yamaha, it's like a giant Foot out of Heaven, booting
>>you right in the arse.

	I'll second and third that.  I took my buddy's Turbo SECA 650 up I-79
in PA one day.  At 70mph, it lit the back tire (I was hunched over it to keep
the front end down).  I wound it out to 9 grand in top gear (estimated speed
around 140-150mph).  What a rush.  It's just too damn easy to get vertical
on a bike like this when the boost comes on while exiting a corner.

	My buddy runs Sunoco 94 in it and has no knock or predetonation
problems.  Have you checked your timing to see if it's in spec?

	Now, if I can just get my Hog to run like that.  :-)

	On an unrelated issue, can any of you guys tell me if the chrome valve
cover on my '84 Omni 2.2 motor means that this is some bizarre Chrysler
exclusive?  I know Shelby has something to do with Chrysler these days, and
the motor pulls pretty hard (for an Omni :-).  I'd LOVE to find a donor Shelby
Charger and drop its turbo 2.2 in (it'll fit EXACTLY), but then I'm a sick
puppy (less than 2000 lbs and over 150bhp--good thing tires are cheap at the
junkyard! :-)

Chris BeHanna
behanna@syl.nj.nec.com

----------
Posted by: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 13:38:23 1992
Subject: Re: WHILE WE'RE INJECTING THI 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


> Date:  Thu, 30 Apr 92 03:21 EDT
> From:  hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu (The Hotrod List)
> 
> 
> -> What would happen if you switched the H2O in your water injection
> -> system with H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide)?  I asked my Chem. Prof. Here at
> -> Bucknell two years ago, and she couldn't really say.  What would the
> -> extra oxygen do in there?

>  I dunno.  Peroxide was used as a submarine fuel because it was
> self-igniting with the proper catalyst.  (duhh... platinum?).  It has
> also been used as a rocket fuel.

>  The big question would be, "What's its octane rating?"
>                       

> ----------
> Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)


OK.  I will dust off the old Chem degree and take a stab at it.  Hydorgen
Peroxide is an oxidizer.  It would be a way of getting more oxygen into the
combustion chamber for faster or richer burns (kinda like nitrous).

I don't know details without looking into my old text and reference books.
I need to get the physical data (boiling point, bond strengths, etc.) to get
a better idea.

Since it is a liquid and a weak oxidizer, it will be corrosive to engine
metals.  It has a rather high boiling point, so it would pool in all of the
low intake areas, a real corrosion mess.

It just seems like one of those things that would not be helpful.
It would be an oxidizer when you want a more controlled combustion where you
use water injection (not good).  It would slow the combustion process when
you want the faster combustion of an oxidizer (not good either).  I will
dust off some books this weekend, but it does not seem to be a worthwhile
experiment.

Hydrogen Peroxide is not a "fuel".  It was used as the oxidizer for kerosene
in the early rocket motors, before the days of pure hydrogen and oxygen
motors.  As far as being self-igniting in a submarine, can you say
Hindenburg?  Running H2O2 through a catalyst will give you pure water and
oxygen, two things needed on a submarine (maybe a "fuel cell", with the
additional output of a little electricity).

But...If anyone has an engine to experiment with (i.e. destroy), more data
points are always welcome :-).  Just remember, water vapor is not conducive
to compression.  Too much is a very bad thing.  I know, I have the bent
connecting rods to prove it :-(.

Happy oxidizing!

	-- Dan Malek

----------
Posted by: Dan Malek 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 13:46:12 1992
Subject: Water injection
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Here's the way I heard it.... The water hits your combustion chamber
and, under combustion, is blasted into steam. The heat of vaporization
for water is pretty high and converting the water into steam sucks a lot
of energy from the combustion process... I believe this is what reduces
temperatures and pressures enough to reduce the tendancy to detonate.
  It seems that you could just run less boost and end up in the same
situation, but that just isn't the case. 

  Here's another angle. 

  Some local fellow is running NO2 injection, but injects Alcohol instead
og gasoline. This just seems like a really *good* idea. Has anyone else
tried it? Of course the system is totally recalibrated for alcohol, but the
cooling effect and knock resistance ought to be worth it.  What do you think?

Randy N.

----------
Posted by: TWLN5@ISUVAX.IASTATE.EDU



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 14:49:38 1992
Subject: Water injection
To: hotrod@dixie.com

    Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1992 13:33 EDT
    From: hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu (The Hotrod List)

    Here's the way I heard it.... The water hits your combustion chamber
    and, under combustion, is blasted into steam. The heat of vaporization
    for water is pretty high and converting the water into steam sucks a lot
    of energy from the combustion process... I believe this is what reduces
    temperatures and pressures enough to reduce the tendancy to detonate.

No offense, but this doesn't really clarify it.  Sucking up energy, or
reducing pressure seems counterproductive.   Pressure is what moves the
piston!  
   Clearly, the water spray is being evaporated and absorbing
energy -- while at the same time turning to steam w/ higher volume,
increasing the pressure to counterbalance the `loss' of energy.

It would seem to me that there would be two effects;
  1) spray hitting surfaces (piston, cylinder walls, head, valves) and
cooling them.  This would cool the hot spots to reduce the triggering of
detonation.
  2) evaporation in the bulk (ie. fuel/air mix) as the flame starts.  This
would be sapping the energy available to propogate the flame front (w/o
sapping the total energy) and would thus _slow_ the burn.  It would thus
mimic a higher-octane fuel.  Is this what you meant by "sucks ..energy
from the combustion process"?  I think the slowing of the burn would be
the important thing rather than reducing temps or pressure.

I don't know which effect is the most important, but given the time
frames involved, I would assume that most of the action is going on in
the bulk.  

Can anybody verify my reverse engineering?

      It seems that you could just run less boost and end up in the same
    situation, but that just isn't the case. 

    Randy N.

    ----------
    Posted by: TWLN5@ISUVAX.IASTATE.EDU


bruce
miller@cam.nist.gov

----------
Posted by: Bruce R. Miller 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 16:07:03 1992
Subject: Re: Stringback crowd
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>	You should have seen the look on the Mustang driver's face when our
>beat up old Datsun 510 with four people piled in it showed him our tailights
>right after he smirked at the car and said "You guys wouldn't have a chance!"
>        If only we could control the flame shooting abilities of the rotary, 
>a little puff of flame would have really topped it off.  

I gotta tell you about one of the funniest runs I ever did.  I had
just broken the piston in the turbo motor.  Still ran fine but
laid a mosquito cloud like nothing you've ever seen :-)  I was backing
out of my drive when the door popped open, snagged the dirt bank and
ripped the door off.  Hmm, time to do all that body work I'd been
planning on.  So I throw the door in the truck and take it along 
with all my new parts over to the body shop.  Then I go to get the Z.

Now imagine this.  Faded red paint, dented right side front quarter
thanks to a hit'n'run parking lot altercation, door missing and 
smoking like a freight train.

So I'm sitting at this traffic light, the last one on the way out of 
town.  The road beyond is mostly downhill, about half a mile of
divided 4 lane.  This BRAND NEW 300zx turbo pulls up beside me.  Now I'm sitting
there with no door so I could hear them laughing.  Bunch of kids.
I ask 'em if they want to go for it?  More laughs.  I call 'em chicken.
Laughing stops.  I get the christmas tree, er green light :-)  The 
ZX lights the tires.  Just to make it fair, I wait until they actually
start moving before I nail it.  By the time I got to the other end of
the 4 lane, I could see only white smoke.  I pulled over to wait on 'em.
Smoke clears.  They're about 3/4 down the road and are attempting to 
turn around across the median  :-)  They would NOT come down 
and face their victor.  What a riot.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 17:00:33 1992
Subject: Re: On turbos and Yamahas
To: hotrod@dixie.com

   Your question about the Omni 2.2:    Unless you have a limited edition
Omni GLH (The most pure definition of an econo-sleeper), the crome 
valve cover is just for looks. If yor interested in really getting a kick out ofyour Omni 2.2 I suggest looking at some _Direct-Connection_ catalogs
published by Chrysler.  They contain everything you'd ever dream 
of putting into your 2.2 based Chrysler-Dodge.  If you have any more
questions about the 2.2 engine I think I can just about answer any
question you can come up with.
      Tom Wierzchon

----------
Posted by: "Thomas A. Wierzchon" 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 17:08:23 1992
Subject: Re: Water injection 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>While we're on the water injection thread, has anyone used either the
>Spearco or Edelbrock units?  I've been looking at purchasing one of
>them to help a slight knock problem with my '65 Galaxie w/390.
>The Edelbrock is a bit more expensive.  Is it any better then the Spearco
>unit?  Who else makes a good quality water injection system?
>----------
>Posted by: pc@pyramid.com

I used one from Holley on my '71 Chevelle 350. It was basically the 'el
cheapo unit but it seemed to work just fine. I think if you get one that
senses the motor temp, vacume, and if the motor is running or not then
the thing will probably work as well as any other. The only problem I
ever had with it was when the water froze and waisted the pump! I
suggest that you mix alcahol with the water durring the cold months to
prevent this from happening. I also installed an indicator light on my
dash so I could tell when the injection was working, kinda neat.

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 18:22:31 1992
Subject: RE: WATER INJECTION
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> While we're on the water injection thread, has anyone used either the
-> Spearco or Edelbrock units?  I've been looking at purchasing one of
-> them to help a slight knock problem with my '65 Galaxie w/390.

 If it's only a slight knock, try recurving the distributor first.  Your
'65 probably has the classic "fast" spark curve, coming all-in around
1500 RPM.  You want minimal centrifugal advance until around 1500 with
low octane fuel, and then you can usually crank it on in once revs are
up.  Ford also made a number of vacuum advance canisters, with varying
amounts of advance and actuation pressures.  You'll have to find an old
Mitchell Manual (try your library) that has the listings for these
parts, get the one with the widest range you can from the Ford dealer.
This will get your advance back up during part throttle.
                                        

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 18:30:45 1992
Subject: Re: Weird problem
To: hotrod@dixie.com

when did you put the S&S on?
harley rear cylinders tend to run richer than the front. what does your
front plug look like?
1) verify timing correctness.
   examine the entire timing mechanism, the advance mechanism is 
a major piece of sh*t, the advance weight pivot pins wear out and can 
result in permanently advanced timing. the roll pin that aligns the advance
assembly can shear and allow the assembly to rotate: result is either
too much advance or too much retard.
this is my well educated guess.
mine is a 57 pan.

----------
Posted by: met@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Millam Tackitt)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 18:31:32 1992
Subject: Re: Water injection
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>>While we're on the water injection thread, has anyone used either the
>>Spearco or Edelbrock units?  I've been looking at purchasing one of
>>them to help a slight knock problem with my '65 Galaxie w/390.
>>The Edelbrock is a bit more expensive.  Is it any better then the Spearco
>>unit?  Who else makes a good quality water injection system?
>
>I used one from Holley on my '71 Chevelle 350. It was basically the 'el
>cheapo unit but it seemed to work just fine. I think if you get one that
>senses the motor temp, vacume, and if the motor is running or not then
>the thing will probably work as well as any other. The only problem I
>ever had with it was when the water froze and waisted the pump! I
>suggest that you mix alcahol with the water durring the cold months to
>prevent this from happening. I also installed an indicator light on my
>dash so I could tell when the injection was working, kinda neat.

Not that it freezes much here in California. :-)  I don't think either
the Spearco or Edelbrock has an engine temp sensor.  As far as I know,
they just look at manifold vacuum and RPMs and use that to calculate
engine load and injection rate.  I plan on getting a particle filter
so the injector (hopefully) doesn't clog, as well as a solenoid to
prevent siphoning of the water when parked on a hill with the engine
off.  I think the Spearco even has a dash light to tell you when it
is injecting.  Probably pretty handy when trying to get the right 
amount of injection.  I am probably going to go with the Spearco
unit since it is under $100, while the Edelbrock goes for about $150.
How much does the holley sell for?

pc

-- 
      -m---------    Patrick Connor           Pyramid Technology   
    ---mmm-------    (408) 428-8819           3860 North 1st St.
  -----mmmmm-----    pc@pyramid.com -or-      San Jose, CA           
-------mmmmmmm---    uunet!pyramid!pc         95134              

----------
Posted by: pc@pyramid.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 18:33:03 1992
Subject: Re: Weird problem
To: hotrod@dixie.com

scol@scottsdale.az.stratus.com (Scott Colbath) writes:
>It's a single S&S Super carb. I checked the valves last night, all is  
>good there. AND.... I have 2 inch open headers on the bike. No  
>backpressure probs.

	I've notice that whenever I time my bike, the rear pipe blues
considerably.  If I get the timing retarded a wee bit, the rear pipe glows
before the front will.  I think it may well be your timing, combined with the
nature of H-D's wasted spark ignition.  I may convert to a Power Arc setup
soon and forget about $!#%^% points and condensor-that-shit-often forever.

Chris BeHanna
behanna@syl.nj.nec.com

----------
Posted by: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 18:48:55 1992
Subject: WATER INJECTION
To: hotrod@dixie.com


-> Here's the way I heard it.... The water hits your combustion chamber
-> and, under combustion, is blasted into steam. The heat of
-> vaporization for water is pretty high and converting the water into
-> steam sucks a lot of energy from the combustion process... I believe
-> this is what reduces temperatures and pressures enough to reduce the
-> tendancy to detonate. It seems that you could just run less boost and
-> end up in the same situation, but that just isn't the case.

 That's sorta what happens on a normally aspirated engine.  On a blown
engine, the intake air is heated by the blower, both by the mechanical
churning action and by compression, viz Whatisname's Law.  This hot air
expands, creating back pressure for the compressor.  If you can cool
this charge by intercooling or water injection, you will get more air in
even though the boost guage may not read as high.

 Water is peculiar in that it sits around and sucks up a lot of heat
before turning into vapor.  If your intake temperature is over the
boiling point of water at your particular altitude, you get even more
benefit from the same volume of water.

 Once it reaches the combustion chamber it's not worth much.  It doesn't
affect combustion overmuch, though it can cause corrosion of the exhaust
valve and exhaust system if used for extended periods of time.  You
don't really want to inject enough to affect the combustion process
unless you're running into detonation.
                                                       

----------
Posted by: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)



From z-car@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 18:53:01 1992
Subject: Fuel Injectors

carpenterj@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Jim Carpenter) sez:

>*Question*:  I need some new fuel injectors.  Does anyone
>know of a source of good inexpensive (less than $60 each)
>injectors.  Even JC Whitney seems to be expensive!  

>I am having a problem with engine miss at hot start that seems to
>be injectors sticking until they cool down.  I need to
>investigate this further, but I may need to replace some of them.

I've been looking too and $60 seems to be about typical.  You might want
to check with a couple of places that rebuild injectors.  Typically
this will be a diesel injection service that has branched out.  
I have one near my house that I plan on visiting in the next couple of
days.  The guy at the car parts place said they sell 'em pretty cheap.

You might want to consider cleaning the ones you have and even testing 
them.  I've designed and built a computerized testing and cleaning 
system.  I've yet to get an injector that did not have gross mechanical
or electrical problems that did not respond to cleaning.

Cleaning is very easy.  The Z injector uses a removable spray shaping
cup that fits over the end of the injector.  Remove this cup, clean
the inside very good with carb cleaner.  Then clean the pintle assembly
and nozzle tip.

Internal cleaning involves energizing the injector and pumping cleaning
solution through it.  My assembly consists of a small gas can, a
spare fuel punp, a spare pressure regulator, a standard Z fuel filter
and a can with a drain tube soldered in for the injector to squirt into.
This is hooked up just like in the car.  Energize the injector with
12 volts through a 10 ohm power resistor.  You may have to momentarily
jumper the resistor to get a sticking injector open.  Then pump fluid
through the injector until the spray pattern is uniform.  
I use Chevron Techron undiluted as my cleaning solvent.  Works very
rapidly.

It helps to operate the  injector while cleaning.  I've written some
code that runs on a PC and drives a power transistor from a bit on
the parallel port.  A common darlington transistor connected 
through a 1kohm resistor in the base to a bit on the parallel port
is all that is required.  Ground the emitter, hook the collector
to the injector and connect 12 volts to the other injector terminal.
Do not use a snubbing diode.  What I do is tell the program to 
pulse the injector 5 ms on, 10 ms off.  This pulsing helps clean internal
wiping surfaces.  You can safely drive two injectors using the
TIP120 NPN Darlington transistor, p/n 276-2068 from Rat Shack.
To clean all 6 at once, simply grab three bits off the parallel port
and make three drivers.

If you don't want to fool with it and can stand the shipping delay,
get with me in email and we can work something out where I could
test the injectors.

John


From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 19:27:48 1992
Subject: Re: Water injection
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> While we're on the water injection thread, has anyone used either the
> Spearco or Edelbrock units?  I've been looking at purchasing one of
> them to help a slight knock problem with my '65 Galaxie w/390.
> 
> The Edelbrock is a bit more expensive.  Is it any better then the Spearco
> unit?  Who else makes a good quality water injection system?
> 
> pc
> Posted by: pc@pyramid.com
> 

I installed the Edlebrock unit into my '66 buick LeSabre (equiped with
the 10.25:1 340 ci motor).  I didn;t like the idea of "de-tuning" by
retarding the timing because the fuel mileage is bad enough as it is.

I been using it for about 6 months or more and have been very pleased.
It is especially helpfull when I'm towing.  I'd be glad to answer any 
question you may have.

John Greeven
greeven@clipper.ingr.com
(415) 852-2356


----------
Posted by: greeven@speedy.clipper.ingr.com (John Greeven)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr 30 19:47:24 1992
Subject: higher CR possible with H20 injection?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


So if H20 injection helps reduce detonation, can I use it to run
a higher CR on my motor with the same gas?  If so how much higher can I 
go.

My motor came stock with 10.5 :: 1  and I was thinking of reducing that to
9.5 :: 1 or so to be able to run on pump gas. But I would certainly want to
keep it stock or go even higher if all I needed was to get a water injector
going.  

What does the group advise ?

eric.

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 19:19:09 1992
Subject: Re: MSD 8972/6A
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The Hotrod List writes:
> 
> I hope this mailing gets out since our net service seems to have taken a
> nosedive in the last day or two.
> 
> I have learned some things about the MSD 8972 that may be of interest
> to this group.  The 8972 is an ignition retard box that goes between
> the distributor and an MSD electronic ignition (their 6, 7, or 8 series
> boxes will all work with the 8972).  The retard box has four inputs
> which are used to control the time delay of the ignition signal passing
> through the box.  The box is useful if you have an engine that likes
> to knock under certain conditions (e.g., high boost, nitrous oxide,
> high temperature, etc.) because the box can be connected to sensors or
> control inputs to retard the timing under the knock-producing conditions.
> 
> One of the inputs to the box is intended to connect to the starter
> solenoid winding; this input retards the timing by 20 degrees as long as
> voltage is present.  This can be a real snout-saver for starters.
> 
> The other three inputs are timing retard controls which select an amount
> of retard based on plug-in "modules".  The effect of these three inputs
> is additive.  The unit comes with modules of 2, 3, and 4 degrees so you
> can get any desired retard between 2 and 9 degrees with the supplied
> modules.  Additional module kits are available with greater amounts of
> retard, but you should probably save your money because a module consists
> of a resistor.  The resistor's value in K ohms is equal to the retard it
> produces: 2K => 2 degrees, 5K => 5 degrees, etc.
> 
> The retard inputs are normally grounded; to activate one you need to
> either open it or connect it to 12 volts.  A suggested application
> shows the three inputs connected to the solenoids in a 3-stage nitrous
> oxide system.  This allows each stage of nitrous to retard the timing
> by an additional amount.
> 
> This sounds like a gadget that would be of interest to people with
> older high-compression engines as well as to those who are building
> race engines.
> 
> Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
> ...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
> 
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)


I have been thinking about purchasing the MSD 6A setup for our
motor...

does the above work along with the 6A?  what would be involved in
installing a knock sensor into an engine not originally equipped with
one?  what does the knock sensor do?  How does it work?

thanks,
	Derek Cunningham















----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!decvax!av8r!dcunning (Derek Cunningham)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 19:32:09 1992
Subject: Knock sensors 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>> I have learned some things about the MSD 8972 that may be of interest
>> to this group.  

>I have been thinking about purchasing the MSD 6A setup for our
>motor...

Get the -6T or the one with the rev limiter built in (6L?)  The-6T
comes with a very nice rubber vibration isolation kit for mounting.

>does the above work along with the 6A?  

Yes.  

>what would be involved in
>installing a knock sensor into an engine not originally equipped with
>one?  what does the knock sensor do?  How does it work?

I posted a monologue on knock sensors a couple of weeks ago.  Part is
included below.  Physically installing the sensor is no problem - just
find a good solid point on the head or block, drill a hole if one does 
not already exist, tap and screw the thing in.  Getting it to work with
the ignition is another trick alltogether.

I've bought several so-called knock controllers over the years.  None
worked.  They all responded to the gross signal from the knock sensor
which meant they are always actuated at high RPM.  For it to work, the 
controller MUST gate the knock signal to crank position.  You have basically
four choices.  

1.	Certain GM vehicles used an external knock controller that interfaces
	with a special HEI unit.  I believe it could be adapted to any system.
	A note describing the system set to me by a friend is enclosed below.

2.	The SafeGuard system by J & S electronics.  This is a digital aftermarket
	system that supposedly controls knock on a cylinder-by-cylinder basis.
	I've not used the system but I looks OK.  Expensive at about $425.

3.	The Electromtive direct ignition system.  This system uses a crank
	trigger, direct ignition (no distributor), is PC programmable and
	listens to a knock sensor.  The system has gotten some bad press on
	the net but my experience is that it works as advertised.  Mounting
	the crank trigger is CRITICAL and requires a machine shop.

4.	Roll your own.  My choice.

John
-----------------------------------------------------------
[exerpted article on knock sensors]

Here's my suggestion.  If you don't want to fool with running down
tolulene from an industrial supplier, simply buy some Turbo Blue
racing fuel from your friendly local hotrod supplier (or mailorder).
Then experiment with mixing this in with your pump gas.  Since 
Turbo blue is mostly tolulene, you should be able to use it 
in a similar manner as the octane boosters.  A quart to a 12 gallon
tank of gas should do it.  Experiment with your engine until you 
discover the minimum amount of booster necessary to supress knock.

You need to use a knock sensor in order to determine this.  An engine
makes its best power when incipitent (silent) detonation is present.
This knock IS visible to a knock sensor.   There are two easy ways to 
do this.  One is to buy a knock sensor from a commercial vendor.
The only one I know of right off the top of my head is the SafeGuard
system from J&S electronics (714) 534 6975.  This is actually a knock
control system that also displays knock activity.  It's expensive at
$425.  I've not evaluated it so I cannot comment on its effectiveness.

The second method is to install a knock sensor on your engine and 
monitor it with an oscilloscope.  To get a sensor, simply visit your
local car parts emporium and look in their sensors catalog.  find
a sensor for an engine similar to yours that was equipped from
the factory.  The sensor is acousticly tuned to the knock frequency of
an engine type so it is important to match engine types.  In general,
I've found that all V8 sensors, all in-line six sensors and all
4 cylinder sensors, etc, are interoperable within the engine type.

The signal must be viewed with a scope triggered from ignition pulses.
This is because other engine noise can mimic knock.  What you're 
interested in is looking for knock from about 5 degrees after ignition
firing to about 20 degrees after top dead center on the power stroke.
I have a Fluke Model 97 digital storage scope that makes this easy.
It can be done with an analog scope but will require an assistant to
run the scope.  With my digital scope, I can gate the sweep from
the ignition pulses and trigger the acquisition cycle on amplitude 
of knock signal.  Then I just drive and when the scope triggers, stop
and look at it.  With the ignition signal on the other channel,
I can compute the RPM where the problem happens.

The neat thing about knock sensor is that they pick up resonances set up
in the block and head stimulated by the detonation process.  This means
that the same signal can be generated with a sharp hammer rap 
on a solid spot on the block.  Thus you can calibrate your knock sensor
without having to run the engine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: emory!posms.cactus.org!rick (Rick Kirchhof)   [not there anymore jgd]
Subject: Re:  EFI design ideas

As to the GM ESC system, this is exactly identical in appearance to any
1975 or later HEI system.  It has coil in cap, vacuum and centrifugal
advance in the conventional manner.  It is connected to a black plastic
box by 4 to 6 wires.  The box is about 1 X 4 X 6 inches and is USUALLY
mounted with its length along the length of the truck and parallel
to the ground.  It is often found near the power brake booster or A/C
evaporator housing. 

The best way locate a suspect vehicle is to look for a non-computer 
controlled engine in a pickup or surburban.  These are most easily
identified by the vacuum advance can on the distributor.  NO GM vehicle
ever had electronic spark timing AND a vacuum advance can except the HEI
ESC units.  Once you have a non-computer engine, you must look at the
distributor.  If it has only one wire (usually 12 gauge, pink, this is
power) that attaches it to the engine harness, you have a plain HEI. 
Sometimes, there is a second smaller wire for a tach or cost down
solenoid if manual transmission.  It is smaller than the power wire and
just beside it.  If it is as above, plus there are four other wires 
leaving the distibutor, you have your prize.  Don't count the wires that
join the cap to the distributor base, these don't connect to anything
external.

If you need to spec it out, try a 1983-85 C-10 (half ton pickup) with 
a 5.0L carbureted engine.  If this gets you into on-board computer
control, try it as a C-30 (heavy duty emissions package).  The GM HEI 
ESC unit is the opposite of a standard GM electronic advance.  It is 
fully advanced all the time, and looks for knock, then retards all 
cylinders equally so long as there is knock.  The retard increases so 
long as there the knock continues.  It waits for knock to stop, then 
adds timing back to normal settings.  The distributor can be junked, 
and the module mounted and heat sinked elsewhere.  Then all you have to 
do is to wire the knock controller, 12V supply, trigger coil from the 
distributor and knock sensor to it.  You can use a late model divorced 
GM coil, and there you have it.

[end]

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 19:45:27 1992
Subject: Re: Headers for a small block mopar
To: hotrod@dixie.com

When I bought my '70 Challenger (340 c.i.) it already had headers, so I
can't comment from experience on having to do anything with the
kickdown linkage, but I can see no reason that they would interfere
with one another.

For the Challenger, the problem is that one of the header primaries
wraps under the Pittman arm and center link, while the others are
routed over it, so some of the steering apparatus must be
disassembled.

They probably designed the headers to fit around a power steering unit,
which my car doesn't have; there is plenty of room to fit the headers
without going under the steering apparatus, if they designed one for
manual steering.  (Anybody know of one?)

If they are so pressed for space with a 340, I can't imagine how they
find room for headers with a 440, which would have come with power
steering as (practically) mandatory equipment.
____________________________________________________________________________
          _______________
        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |			Dan Harling
   0  / /_________________\ \| 0		(harling@pictel.com)
    ---------------------------
  / /======|=D=O=D=G=E=|======\ \		Opinions are not necessarily
  \_____________________________/		those of PictureTel, but
  \    _______       _______    /		they should be.
  |\ _/|__|__|\_____/|__|__|\_ /|		
  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |		'70 Dodge Challenger
  |______|               |______|		340 4-bbl.

----------
Posted by: harling@roadrunner.pictel.com (Dan Harling)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 19:54:21 1992
Subject: Re: how to index a plug?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


    > 	Can anyone steer me to the proper way to index a spark plug.
    > 	I see two conflicting methods in print. The first is with the
    > 	'u' of the electrode towards the piston (fig a), the second
    > 	is with the 'u' of the electrode away from the piston (fig b).
    > 
    > 
    >                                     --\
    >     == |                            == |
    >     --/
    >     ----------------------          ---------------------
    > 		piston top                       piston top
    > 		fig a                             fig b
    > 
    > ----------
    > Posted by: derekp@gvls2.GVL.Unisys.COM (Derek J. Pietro)

    I would say, figure 'b' is the proper choice.  That way, when the spark 
    jumps the gap, the explosive power is directed down, toward the piston.  
    To be honest, I never really bothered with indexing, since I couldn't 
    see the advantages being worth the time, and trouble it takes to index 
    them.

    Anybody out there have any other comments?

Here's something I wrote on the topic from the britcars list.


First off, indexing the spark plugs, while a legitimate practice, falls
under the category of giving angels smaller shoes so that more of them 
can stand on the head of a pin.  The effects are real but tiny.  As Carroll
Smith says, a lap time difference of 0.02 seconds over a hundred laps equals 
a two-second margin of victory by the time the checker falls.  Tuning is
looking for every two-hundredth advantage you can squeeze out of the motor.

There are two primary benefits.  First, as Mark said, is that you want
the electrode out of the intake stream while the valve is open.  Think
of the relative sizes of an intake valve and the side electrode of a
spark plug.  The idea with indexing is to put the electrode so that the
skinny edge faces the intake stream, not the wide edge.  

The other benefit is even more subtle, and the specific design of the 
engine will determine which of these is most important for your car.
You want to index the head so that the opening of the spark plug provides
the best flame propagation in your combustion chamber.  All CCs have an
optimum direction, based on the swirl induced by the intake charge and
the design of the chamber itself, in which the flame should propagate
for optimum power (or emissions, or efficiency, which ultimately work
out to pretty much the same thing -- getting the most out of each
cylinder's worth of air-fuel mix).  Combustion is not the same as
explosion: the regular progression of the flame front through a
cylinder is a critical part of a car's power generating capability,
particularly at very high RPMs.  It determines the pressure on the
piston, the temperature inside the combustion chamber, and ultimately
the power that the engine can produce.  In some engines, it makes a
big difference whether you point the flame front in one direction or
another to start it off.  

Again, this kind of thing only really matters when you've gotten down
to the really subtle details.  Chances are you wouldn't notice this
on a street engine because it would be lost in the noise of a stock
ignition system, intake and exhaust system, camshaft profile and the
like.  Only after you've degreed the cam, polished the combustion
chamber, figured out the optimum compression ratio, flow-ported the
heads, perfected the valves, balanced the air-fuel ratio, installed
the correct exhaust, and determined the optimum timing advance curve
and dwell angle for your engine does it make sense to think about
indexing the plugs.  (Of course, it *IS* one of the cheaper things to
do, so you don't lose anything by doing it early.) 

Forced to make an estimate of its efficiency, I'd say that you might
gain all of 1 to 2% at an absolute maximum by indexing plugs.  Which 
means it's definitely worth considering for a serious race effort 
with a skilled driver and a properly built engine in a well-handling
chassis.  I figure at that rate, I'll never need to worry about it
myself... :-)


--
 "Do you ever wish you had a joystick with a big red button on it so 
  you could just nuke the person when you send a reply?" -- Kim

Scott Fisher/sfisher@wsl.pa.dec.com/DEC Western Software Labs/Palo Alto, CA

----------
Posted by: Scott Fisher 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 20:10:18 1992
Subject: re: Headers for a small block mopar
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I don't know if this helps, but...

A couple of years ago, I put headers on my 1979 RV - it's a 360 small
block with a column shift AT.  I got a similar set of cheapie headers -
I think they were Hedman headers for about $59.  At the same
time, I changed to a four-barrel manifold/carb setup from the stock
two-barrel.

I found that the transmission kickdown from the two-barrel setup was
too short to use on the four-barrel, so I went to the local Pick-A-Part
Yard, and got a kickdown lever from a four-barrel 360 - I think the car
was a Dodge Magnum.  I didn't have much of a problem installing it, except
that it needed to be bent in a couple of places, to clear some stuff
I can't remember.  Bending was easy with a vise and a hammer.

The worst part of installation was that my cylinder heads have Exhaust
Injection ports, which are just under the exhaust ports.  In the cast iron
exhaust manifolds, there is a passage that the AIR pump connects to, and 
air is injected into these ports, which exit in the floor of each exhaust
port.  Not sure if your 75 has the same.  The cheapie headers have no
provision for this at all, so you have to block off these ports somehow,
otherwise they're another exhaust leak.  Some people drill and tap the
holes, and install 1/8 NPT plugs, which is nice if you have access, or 
remove your heads. I don't, so what I did was to cut out little sheet 
metal squares, and insert them between the header flange and gasket underneath
the exhaust port, so that the holes are blocked by the gasket, and the gasket
is compressed by the squares underneath the flange.  Works, but makes
installation a little difficult.  I also keep the cast iron manifolds around
for smog checks.  Someday, I'll get real headers, with the injection port
built in, but they ARE expensive (~$400).

By the way, the cheapie headers have held up for about 10,000 miles now,
and no problems yet.
  
-- 
Derek Deeter                           derek_deeter@mentorg.com
Mentor Graphics Corp.
8005 S.W. Boeckman Rd.
Wilsonville, OR 97070-7777


----------
Posted by: derekd@apd.MENTORG.COM (Derek Deeter)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 22:21:26 1992
Subject: Re: how to index a plug? 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Plug indexing is SAID to be worth a few HP. Mark the electrode pos
on the porcelain with a felt pen and statr screwing them in. If you 
are lucky you can get all of them in the right position by swapping
from hole to hole. Moroso makes a set of indexing washers that go under
the plugs and changes the orientation.
RON

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 22:27:36 1992
Subject: Re:  roller cam followers & needle brngs. reliable ?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Roller cam bearings? I've never heard of such a thing. Roller cams as I
understand them refer to them being intended for use with the roller-
tip lifters. Does somebody actually make roller bearings for the cam
journals? I'd think you'd need to either have a much smaller journal or
get the holes rebored.

Personally I'd just get roller lifters and forget about the idea of roller
bearings for the cam. All those little metal cylinders milling around,
hoping to stay lubricated....

I don't think the frictional losses from a plain journal bearing are a
big worry; the big thing is the lobe-lifter contact friction and transferred
torque from the spring pressure against the lobe ramp. Supposedly a roller
lifter cuts this down quite a bit as well as allowing a more radical lobe
profile. The cam journal should be riding in a pressurized oil film and
not need so much fanciness.

----------
Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 23:27:12 1992
Subject: Re: 327 engine
To: hotrod@dixie.com

In article  hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>
>1. I assume that the stock 300 hp cam, intake manifold and carb are
>available, but from whom?  I plan to look up in a Chilton manual and see
>if that offers any info, but would appreciate any that anyone else can
>provide.

I just realized that in my previous post I said all Chevy 4bbl manifolds
are about the same except for the Corvette. That's incorrect. The Z28
Camaro once sported an aluminum factory intake, #3917610, that was a 
real dual plane killer. If you remove a 1 inch deep section of the
center divider 2.5 inches long and add a 1 inch spacer between the
carb and manifold, you can pick up about 10 hp on the top end. Sweet.

Gary

----------
Posted by: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 23:27:15 1992
Subject: Re: how to index a plug?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

In article  hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>
>	Can anyone steer me to the proper way to index a spark plug.
>	I see two conflicting methods in print. The first is with the
>	'u' of the electrode towards the piston (fig a), the second
>	is with the 'u' of the electrode away from the piston (fig b).
>
>
>                                    --\
>    == |                            == |
>    --/
>    ----------------------          ---------------------
>		piston top                       piston top
>		fig a                             fig b
>

It doesn't really matter. The flamefront starts opposite the "squish" 
area and new mixture is forced towards the flame by the squish. As long 
as the plug ignites the fuel surrounding it, the flame travel is going 
to be the same. The only real difference is in the shape of the squish 
area that varies between the old straight plug heads and the newer angle 
plug 202s. On really good gas, the newer head design is worth 20 hp, but 
on the rotten street gas we can get, the older straight plug heads work 
better. (I just realized that the above information is Chevy small block 
specific, it might make a difference on other engines. It doesn't matter
on a hemi, all directions are equal. I don't know about Fords.)

Gary

----------
Posted by: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr  8 23:40:33 1992
Subject: Re: 327 engine
To: hotrod@dixie.com

In article  hotrod@dixie.com writes:
>
>1. I assume that the stock 300 hp cam, intake manifold and carb are
>available, but from whom?  I plan to look up in a Chilton manual and see
>if that offers any info, but would appreciate any that anyone else can
>provide.

The cam is still available from Chevy. Ditto the intake, though I'd go
junk yard on this one, any pre-emissions 4bbl intake works, only the
Corvette intakes are really different. The best ones are 1965-1969 with 
divorced choke. The carb is more of a problem. To get a pre-emissions carb 
you're probably going to have to get a core rebuilt. It's worth the trouble, 
they idle better.

>2. With my current stock setup the Rochester 4Jet carb has a heat tube
>coming from the manifold to control the choke - will I have to stay with
>the heat tube set-up with the new carb, or will it have an electric
>choke?  Was an electric choke available on 327s in 1965?  If I have to
>stay with the heat tube, do headers have the mechanism built-in to
>handle this?

Electric chokes were not factory in 1965. Later Q-jets have them. If
you can find one, divorced chokes were used on certain 1965-1969 models
including the Impala. This requires a matching manifold, but solves a
lot of problems. Most headers won't work with heat tube chokes.

Since you already have a pre-emissions carb, I'd just consider reworking
it and stay with the manifold you have or convert to divorced choke and
matching manifold.

>3. I also have factory air whose mounting brackets are on the exhaust
>manifold - are there headers that can provide the place to mount the
>compressor, or should I just scrap the idea of headers and go with stock
>exhaust mainfolds and dual exhaust?

Hooker, and other's I'm sure, have special brackets to accomodate this.
For your year model, you may have to get one fabricated. I doubt that
the header manufacturers still stock a custom header for your car. Likely
they'll have a "universal" model they'll try to sell you. The only thing
"universal" about these headers is that they univerally don't fit *any*
car. Stock Corvette, and heavy truck (C60), manifolds flow better than
yours. Manifolding is the one area where Chevy has never excelled. I'd
be tempted to try to find a truck manifold set and just go with the 
dual exhausts. Headers are a *lot* of trouble. They're worth quite a
bit of power, but in a daily driven car I'm not sure I'd want to deal
with the hassles of leaks, cracks, and warpage. Not to mention all the
custom bracketry you'll have to fabricate, or the excitement of trying
to get to the plugs. I ran Hookers on a daily drive C10 for a while,
but eventually changed back to cast iron.

Gary

----------
Posted by: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 00:47:54 1992
Subject: Re: roller cam followers & needle brngs. reliable ? 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

The benefit of a roller cam is the fact that you can accelerate the valve
at a much faster rate than is possible with a conventional flat tappet cam.
This allows you to make more power with a less radical profile. Read less
duration. A roller cam also creates much less friction and HP goes up as 
a result of this also. Detroit did it initially as a method to get more
MPG from their existing engines.
I'm not sure what you mean by roller cam bearings. The ones in the block?
I have only heard of Crower doing this and haven't heard of anyone using
them. Roller cams are expensive enough and a complete rolerized setup
has to cost a bundle!
Hydraulic roller cams are now appearing in the aftermarket and seem to 
be the real way to go. Big bucks though.
RON

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From HOTROD@Dixie.Com Thu Apr  9 01:50:56 1992
Subject: The beast...my two cents...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

If you want to stay with the stock cam but increase lift, why not just
add higher ratio rocker arms.  They are made by a number of different 
companies, for different prices.  I just read a test that showed a decent
increase in power on a Ford 302.  I _think_ the stock rocker arms on a
Chevy SB are about 1.5:1 or so.  There are 1.6:1 available, and the Ford
test used 1.7:1 rockers.  They're easier to change than a cam, too.

If it were my truck, I'd go for a slightly bigger cam, even if it is
an earlier factory grind.  How about the second from the top on a late
60's small block?

You could always get the best set of stock exhaust manifolds you could
find, and get them Extrusion Honed (spelling?).  Besides, I like 
"cheater" setups. ;^)

Have fun with the truck, our '76 Silverado 350 4bbl. was a lot of fun.
Especially for the week that it didn't have any exhaust system.

One thing to watch out for...on that truck, the rear-most exhaust hanger
broke.  This let the whole tailpipe hang on the muffler joint.  The turn-out
behind the rear wheels swung _up_ and scorched a big section of the
paint on the quarter pannel.  The hanger was one week old.  It bubbled
the paint right off the fender.  We kept the thing running for a summer
by patching the exhaust together with coffee cans...

I do miss regular gas, and no emissions controls...


And one more thing, on the Bummer of the Week thread - 
A friend at home went to a junk yard that supposedly had a good stock of
early to mid 60's muscle iron.  It did, althouh they were all small cubes.
He was too late by about a week!  He said he saw an early Chrysler cross-ram
car, correct down to the crused aircleaners.  It isn't worth anything now...



Ed Mulligan
5 weeks until Mustang!
Bucknell U.

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Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu



From dan@grok85.columbiasc.ncr.com Thu Apr  9 09:03:06 1992
To: bmw@balltown.cma.com
Subject: RE: The Famous 323i, etc.
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2177

Shel Hall writes:
>Yeah, they offer lots of engines in BMWs 'over there.'  The 5-body is
>probably the all-time champ though, with everything from 1.8 liter
>fours to 3.5 liter sixes offered at one time or another.  The 520i (six
>cylinder EFI) was really popular in the mid-eighties, coming in under
>the 2-liter mark (i.e. cheap road tax) and under 100 HP (i.e. cheap
>insurance.)  A friend of mine in Frankfurt had one, and it was a very
>reasonable car.

The new 2-liter has 150-hp, and goes pretty well.  I recall following 
one (520i) on a return trip from Munich to Stuttgart (while vacationing
there).  We were averaging about 125 mph and it didn't seem to have any
problems :-) :-)

>More importantly, in Germany, you can get the cars without all the
>options BMWNA makes you buy over here.  In the home market, BMW isn't
>trying to hold the high ground, marketing-niche-wise, and they sell a
>lot of regular cars to regular folks.  My '81 732i doesn't have electric
>seats, leather, electric windows, or a sunroof, for example.  An
>interesting option back then was electric windows in the front only,
>with crank-ups in the back.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is not just a "back then" option.  I have traveled to Germany every
fall, since college, and I see brand new BMWs and Mercedes with the power
windows in the front only.  I recall meeting a local/national Soccer
star, who had a beautiful 300E, with power windows in the front only.
I don't think it's a cost thing, it seems more like a pratical sort
of thing.  My uncle's 84' 280E is the same way, but again it doesn't
seem to matter at 135 mph. 

Another interesting fact; I picked up a mid November (91) issue of Auto Motor
& Sport, and they were previewing the new 3-series coupe.  They made a
big deal (the magazine) of the NEW 1.8-l DOHC, the same one in our 318is
of 1991 vintage.  The new 318i (4-dr) was introduced with a 113-HP SOHC.

Daniel

------

Daniel Adams
NCR Corporation                          phone: (803) 739-6179, I-632-6179
Multiprocessor Systems Business Unit     email: dan@grok85.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM 
Technical Support                        fax:   (803) 791-6998, I-632-6998


From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Apr 22 13:52:17 1992
Subject: Re:  Voltage
To: hotrod@dixie.com

(ballast resistors)

If you want a tech look, mount the resistors to the underside of a finned,
anodized heat sink with liberal heat sink grease; the heat sink should stand
off from the wall about an inch.

If you want invisible, try mounting them to the underside of the fender, the 
trans tunnel, or mount them to the inside of the firewall before the ignition
lead exits to the dist. (not where bare feet can touch; maybe enclose and
again put some heat grease betw resistor & the sheet metal)

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Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)