From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Feb 20 16:43:56 1992
Subject: Ohhh! Shelby Cobra
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I went to a strategy meeting last night for our local anti-gun-control
group.   I met a new member by the name of Arni Katz.  Arni's a film
director and artist.  He did that liquid-metal-to-droid sequence in
"Terminator II".  He was telling us about his Mac with 8 GB of hard drive
and a bunch of other mac crap that I'm not interested in.  I happened 
to mention cars.  We talked racing a bit and about some of my work
on fuel injection.  When we were through, he invited me over to his 
shop for a little surprise.

Well I walked in this place and what did I find but a pristine 
Shelby Cobra 455.  No kit car this, it's a genuwine original.  He 
explained that he took it in trade for some movie work he had done
when the guy could not pay.  He asked me if I'd like to take it for
a drive (does a bear shit in the woods?!)  I decided to wait for
daylight so I'm headed over tomorrow with camera in hand to give
this jewel a shot.  

There really IS a God!!!

Report to follow.
John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC        | "I'm a lawyer but I guess I'm also human." 
Rapid Deployment System, Inc. |             Ian Zimmerman. 
Marietta, Ga                  |      Lawyer for the purse snatcher
jgd@dixie.com                 |   scum who sued the taxi driver in 'Frisco.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 05:43:55 1992
Subject: Blown '31 "ride"
To: hotrod@dixie.com

 >>From ...uunet!emory!rsiatl!hotrod@asuvax.eas.asu.edu Wed Feb 19 09:29:14 1992
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Feb 92 20:46 EST
 >>Newsgroups: wiz.hotrod
 >>Subject: Re: hotrod introduction
 >>From: ..uunet!dixie.com!hotrod@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (The Hotrod List)
 >>To: hotrod@dixie.com
 >>
 Phil G writes:
 [..]
 >>The car now has two Edelbrock 600 CFM Performer Series carbs -- it
 >>pulls all the way through, every gear..  Much, much, much, much better!
 [..]
 >>
 >>My wonderful, kind, big-hearted, favorite nephew just bought a progressive
 >>linkage from Edelbrock for my dual-carb set-up and gave it to me for my

What is a progressive linkage?  What does it do for you?

 >>birthday (thank you David!), I'll keep the group posted on what I believe
 >>will be another performance enhancement, with it's addition.
 >>
 >>
 >>>Secondly, I had a 4 core radiator with dense fins made for my Z-car after
 >>>putting a turbo engine in it.  I had worse overheating problems than
 >>>before.  After extensive testing (dT across the radiator, delta air 
 >>>pressure across the fins, etc), I figured out that the dense fins (24 per

I am not familiar with this type of testing.  dT and delta air??  I
can guess what the basic idea of the tests are about, but can someone
give me some specifics?  What type of shop can perform such tests?

 >>>inch vs 20 or something like that) actually cut down the air flow.
 >>>John
 >>
 >>AT&T 		|	 This space		| (708)-859-4485
 >>Phil Gunsul	|	intentionally		| prg@mgweed.ATT.COM
 >>Montgomery, IL	|	 left blank..		| AT&T Information Systems
 >>


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Don Robinson    (602) 752-6466                |  We don't quit playing because
 Internet:     vlsiphx!donr@asuvax.eas.asu.edu |  we grow old...   We grow old
 UUCP:         ...uunet!asuvax!vlsiphx!donr    |  because we quit playing.

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!ncar.UCAR.EDU!asuvax!vlsiphx!enforcer!donr (Don Robinson)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 07:05:33 1992
Subject: Re: Blown '31 "ride"
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> >>>Secondly, I had a 4 core radiator with dense fins made for my Z-car after
> >>>putting a turbo engine in it.  I had worse overheating problems than
> >>>before.  After extensive testing (dT across the radiator, delta air 
> >>>pressure across the fins, etc), I figured out that the dense fins (24 per
>
>I am not familiar with this type of testing.  dT and delta air??  I
>can guess what the basic idea of the tests are about, but can someone
>give me some specifics?  What type of shop can perform such tests?


I don't know of any commercial shop that can do this testing but it only
requires a little bit of equipment, namely a thermometer and a differential
pressure indicator.  I recommend buying a digital pyrometer from
someone like Omega Egineering for as little as $80.  It's better to spend
a little extra and get a dual input unit but not absolutely necessary.

To do the delta temperature (dT) test, simply insert a thermometer into 
the inlet and outlet of the radiator.  If using a digital pyrometer,
the thermocouple can be slid between the hose and the spigot and the 
pipe clamp retightened to seal it in.  Then just drive the car
under whatever conditions are giving you trouble and observe the 
readings.  My dual input pyrometer will display the difference between
the readings directly.

What you are interested in is the temperature loss across the radiator
and the actual temperature of the outlet.  The radiator should drop
at least 20 degrees and preferably more.  More importantly, the 
outlet temperature of the water should be below the setpoint of your
thermostat.  If you're running a 180 degree thermostat, an outlet
temperature of 165-170 should be observed even in the hottest weather.

If the dT is low and/or the outlet temperature is high, that indicates
insufficient heat transfer.  That could be either low airflow or blocked
tubes.  If the dT is OK, the outlet is lower than the thermostat setpoint
but the INLET temperature is significantly higher than the thermostat
setpoint, that indicates that there is insufficient coolant flow.

All the above, of course, assumes that the engine is in sound condition and
does not have a headgasket leak or something similiarly major.

The delta pressure (dP) measurement is made by placing two static pressure
taps - basically two tubes with their openings perpendicular to the 
flow (you pilots out there know all about static vs pitot tubes) - on
the radiator, one in front of it and another between the fan and radiator.
Care must be taken to make sure the tubes actually are static taps and
do not have any dynamic pressure on them.  This is best assured by 
making the tubes perfectly perpendicular to the air flow.

The pressure taps are connected to a differential pressure indicator
calibrated in inches of water.  I have a fancy digital manometer but
a simple incline manometer will do.  You can buy a small manometer with
a range of up to, say, 10 inches of water for under $50 at an HVAC
supply store.  Look in the phone book.  Or you can build one from 
a bit of tygon tubing and a piece of plywood.  If there is actual
interest, I'll post a construction article.  It'll be wordy and maybe
will have a postscript illustration so I'm going to save it for now.

The test is simply to drive the car under normal conditions and observe
the differential pressure across the radiator.  It should only be a 
couple of inches of water, 5 or 6 max.  The fan loses efficiency 
rapidly at that level of dP.  Common causes are debris blocking
the radiator, debris buildup between the fins or too many fins per inch.
Note that this pressure should be positive across the radiator.  That
is, the pressure outside the car should be higher than that inside the 
car.  It is not that unusual to see a car with a high nose actually
build enough pressure under the hood to negate the ram effect of 
cooling air entering the front grill.  

For this test to be meaningful, you must first insure that your
fan clutch is in good working order.  Particularly important if you
have a viscous clutch.  I jumped through hoops awhile back trying
to discover an overheating problem that indicated dP problems 
when the real problem was the clutch had leaked enough oil to not
be able to fully engage at speed.  The fan would turn at idle and 
you could hear it spin up when you raced the engine but it would
not spin fast enough to cool the car.  I finally replaced the clutch
on a hunch and the  problem went away.  I opened the clutch and 
found almost no oil inside.  90wt gear oil is good for refilling.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Feb 22 01:25:13 1992
Subject: RE: 68' Vette Questions
To: hotrod@dixie.com

It did not use the same carb...the 350 horse a rochester quadrajet 
# 70208219 this is the # listed in the corvette black book, by michael antonick
the manifold should be painted chevy orange if it is  an iron manifold, but
if it is aluminum, it should not be painted, 
 	You can get the parts you need form zip products and their address is

1250 COMMERCIAL CENTRE
MECHANICSVILLE, VA 23111

	If you need more help, just ask, for I work on a 66 corvert       
convertible 327 @ 350 horse.

----------
Posted by: KE027@zeus.unomaha.edu
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Feb 22 01:25:17 1992
Subject: Re: 68' Vette Questions
To: hotrod@dixie.com


In article  hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu writes:
>OK, If this falls under rec.autos.restore feel free to flame me.
>I also hope the first question does'nt make me look too "wet behind the
>ears".
>
>I'm restoring a 68' Vette and I've finally gotten to the motor.
>The easy question: What color did they paint the intake manifold?
>I know the motor should be orange, but the intake is blue, so I'm baffled.
>
>The motor had a cheapo Holly on it, but I want to put a stock Rochester
>back on.
>The 300HP carb. is easy to find, but I need the 350HP carb.
>So the hard question is...What carb. do I need (numbers if possible)?
>One guy told me both HP versions used the same one but he did'nt seem too
>knowledgable.
>
>Any help would be appreciated.

Blue!!  I don't think so Damon :^)  It should be orange.  Here are some
numbers for you:


======================================================================

              1968 CORVETTE ROCHESTER QUADRAJET CARBURATORS
              --------------------------------------------------

    YEAR        HORESPOWER          EQUIPMENT           PART#
   -----        ----------          ---------           -----
   1968         300 BASE           3 OR 4 SPEED       7028207

                300 BASE            AUTOMATIC         7028208

                350 (L79)           4 SPEED           7028219

                390 (L36)           4 SPEED           7028209

                390 (L36)           AUTOMATIC         7028216

     

    NOTE: CARBURETOR NUMBERS LISTED ARE THOSE QUADRAJETS SPECIFIED BY
          CHEVROLET FOR CORVETTE USAGE; OTHER QUADRAJETS NOT LISTED
          ABOVE MAY ALSO HAVE BEEN USED.


          THE CARBURRTOR (ID) NUMBERS ARE STAMPED ONTO THE MAIN BODY
          ON THE DRIVERS SIDE. IT IS A SEVEN DIGIT NUMBER.
        
          USING 7028207 AS AN EXAMPLE,THE ID NUMBER CAN BE BROKEN DOWN
          AS FOLLOWS:

          (70)-- ALL ROCHESTER CARBURETORS ( FUEL SYSTEMS PARTS) BEGIN
                 WITH (70). BEGINING IN 1976,ALL STARTED WITH "170"

          "28"-- USUALLY CAN BE USED TO IDENTIFY THE YEAR MODEL
                 "28" IS 1968
                 "29" IS 1969
                 "40" IS 1970
                 "41" IS 1971
                 "42" IS 1972
                 THIS IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE,BUT IS NORMALLY CORRECT.

          "207"--IDENTIFIES THE CARBURETOR TO AN APPLICATION.IN THIS
                 CASE,A 1968 300-HORSEPOWER 3 OR 4 SPEED CAR.


           SOME ROCHESTER CARBURETORS WERE MANUFACTURED BY CARTER
          STAMPED "MFD BY CARTER CARBURETOR FOR GMC"

==========================================================================

I might also suggest if you are serious about restoring your Corvette,
as opposed to 'rodding' it, you contact the National Corvette Restorers
Society.  If interested, please let me know Damon and I can get you some
information.

>
>Thanks,
>Damon van Dam
>
>----------
>Posted by: dvd@eng.ufl.edu

Phil  prg@mgweed.att.com

----------
Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 15:37:42 1992
Subject: Re:  Blown '31 "ride"
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Phil G writes:
> [..]
> >>The car now has two Edelbrock 600 CFM Performer Series carbs -- it
> >>pulls all the way through, every gear..  Much, much, much, much better!
> [..]
> >>
> >>My wonderful, kind, big-hearted, favorite nephew just bought a progressive
> >>linkage from Edelbrock for my dual-carb set-up and gave it to me for my
>
>What is a progressive linkage?  What does it do for you?
>

Normally, two carbs on an engine are connected in what is called a "1:1"
ratio.  In other words, the carb linkage on the front and rear carbs work
in syncronization with each other, 1 to 1.

The progressive linkage modifies the operation, by mechanically splitting
the two carbs.  Mine will be set up to run on the front carb through about
the first 20% of the throttle movement.  As the pedal is depress beyond that,
the second carb starts to open, and through a mechanical advantage, will
'catch up' in physical postion to the first carb when the pedal reaches
"wide open throttle".

This will make the engine behave a little better at 'cruise-around-town'
speeds, while still allowing it to have all the fuel it can swallow when
it's time to move out of the way :^)  Who knows, it may even improve may
gas mileage a little.  I like to conserve as much of that 108 octane leaded
fuel as I can for later use ;^)

> >>>Secondly, I had a 4 core radiator with dense fins made for my Z-car after
> >>>putting a turbo engine in it.  I had worse overheating problems than
> >>>before.  After extensive testing (dT across the radiator, delta air 
> >>>pressure across the fins, etc), I figured out that the dense fins (24 per

Just a point here to John, I measured my fin density and it looks like
11 fins per inch..  Not to dense.

>I am not familiar with this type of testing.  dT and delta air??  I
>can guess what the basic idea of the tests are about, but can someone
>give me some specifics?  What type of shop can perform such tests?

Don't know on this one Don, maybe someone else can help.

> >>>John
> >>AT&T                |        This space             | (708)-859-4485
> >>Phil Gunsul         |       intentionally           | prg@mgweed.ATT.COM
> >>Montgomery, IL      |        left blank..           | AT&T Information Sys
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Don Robinson    (602) 752-6466                |  We don't quit playing because
> Internet:     vlsiphx!donr@asuvax.eas.asu.edu |  we grow old...   We grow old
> UUCP:         ...uunet!asuvax!vlsiphx!donr    |  because we quit playing.

Phil - prg@mgweed.att.com

----------
Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 15:45:12 1992
Subject: Holley Question
To: hotrod@dixie.com

  Ok, let's see.  My first post got trashed I think, so I'm going to try
this again.
  My question is in what way does the accelerator pump need to get changed
when a change in power valve is made?  Following are the details.
  I've got a 81 Camaro with a 350 mouse motor that's .030 over, Holley 600cfm
with vacuum secondaries, Edelbrock Performer intake, Competition Cams 268 
bumb stick, Big Valve Heads, 10:1 TRW Flat tops, and Hooker Headers taking
everything out to the year of the car.
  Before Christmas break the car started running really bad.  It would stall
all the time at stop lights after it had warmed up.  After much hair pulling
I figured out that I had blown the power valve in the carb.  I went to my
local Super Shops (The one in Sandy Springs for all you Atlanta Folk), and
purchased a new power valve.  The only problem was that the old one was a
6.5 and SS didn't have any in stock, so I got a 7.5.  After some snail mail
to my "tech" fried, he told me to put a 6.5 back into it for a better
bottom end response.  I've done that, but am having problems with the 
accelerator pump causing a little bog at times when I get on the gas.  So
what I was wondering is wether I need to increase the shot of the pump or
decrease the shot.  I sort of understand how the power valve works, but it's
just sort of sketchy at best.  Thanks for any help.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Steve Brunton   (aka Murdock)   smb1@msstate.edu                           |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|HELLO, kiddies!  I'm a Stimpy-virus!  Join in the fun and copy me into your  |
|.sig!  C'mon, it's really fun!  And such a cool concept, too!  That's it,    |
|just snip me out of this letter and append me to your .sig...PLEEEEZE??      |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------
Posted by: smb1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Steve Brunton)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 15:45:51 1992
Subject: need help on brake proportioning etc.
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Hi netters!


I am building up an old Ford F100 truck as a hotrod/useable truck (but mostly
hotrod :-)    I just completed boxing in the frame rails and have installed
a cordoba front clip using a kit from gibbons and a nine inch rear with lincoln
disk brakes.   

here is my question :  what would be the best setup for brake master cylinder
and power booster and proportioning valve ?    I have seen the load sensing
proportioning valves on other trucks ... do they work well?  Does anyone
have any good suggestions on how to determine booster size needed and can anyone
tell me the pros and cons of remote boosters?

I've been reading the 'brake handbook' by Fred Puhn  which is pretty good for 
all out racer types.

But has anyone done this?

thanks for all advice,
eric       email---  hiss@fionn.lbl.gov

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 15:51:21 1992
Subject: Re: Blown '31 "ride"
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I am not familiar with this type of testing.  dT and delta air??  I
>can guess what the basic idea of the tests are about, but can someone
>give me some specifics?  What type of shop can perform such tests?


>If the dT is low and/or the outlet temperature is high, that indicates
>insufficient heat transfer.  That could be either low airflow or blocked
>tubes.  If the dT is OK, the outlet is lower than the thermostat setpoint
>but the INLET temperature is significantly higher than the thermostat
>setpoint, that indicates that there is insufficient coolant flow.

How about too high of a flow-rate John?  Where the coolant does not
remain in the radiator long enough to get rid of it's heat?  I think
this is what I'm experiencing with my overheating problem.

>Care must be taken to make sure the tubes actually are static taps and
>do not have any dynamic pressure on them.  This is best assured by 
>making the tubes perfectly perpendicular to the air flow.

Could be tough with a angled radiator... :^(

>to discover an overheating problem that indicated dP problems 
>when the real problem was the clutch had leaked enough oil to not
>be able to fully engage at speed.  The fan would turn at idle and 
>you could hear it spin up when you raced the engine but it would
>not spin fast enough to cool the car.  I finally replaced the clutch
>on a hunch and the  problem went away.  I opened the clutch and 
>found almost no oil inside.  90wt gear oil is good for refilling.

Had the same problem on the clutch-fan on my Corvette..  The unit
looks like it is sealed to me though John, how did you get yours open?

>John
>
>----------

Great article John -- I love this kinda' talk!

Phil - prg@mgweed.att.com

----------
Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com
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From jgd@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 15:52:27 1992
Subject: Re:  Ohhh! Shelby Cobra
To: jialin@dogwood.botany.uga.edu (Jialin)

>I wish I can just do the film recording ...

Looks like my visit is going to be next week so SURE.  I'll let you 
know.

John

From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 17:13:28 1992
Subject: Holley Question
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>  My question is in what way does the accelerator pump need to get changed
>when a change in power valve is made?  Following are the details.
>  I've got a 81 Camaro with a 350 mouse motor that's .030 over, Holley 600cfm
>with vacuum secondaries, Edelbrock Performer intake, Competition Cams 268 
>bumb stick, Big Valve Heads, 10:1 TRW Flat tops, and Hooker Headers taking
>everything out to the year of the car.

6.5 and SS didn't have any in stock, so I got a 7.5.  After some snail mail
to my "tech" fried, he told me to put a 6.5 back into it for a better
bottom end response.  I've done that, but am having problems with the 
accelerator pump causing a little bog at times when I get on the gas.  

First some general ramblings then some power valve specifics. You didn't say
if when you first got the car set up (w/ the stock 6.5 power valve) if the 
car had any bog or not. If not, I would look through everything (ignition,
carb) before making changes, assuming at some point it ran good with your
present combination.

On to power valves. Power valves are there to provide power enrichment. 
Generally, you try to run around stoichiometric (14.7:1 air:fuel) for just
driving around (probably won't happen with a stock holley). When you want
acceleration, you generally richen up the mixture to around 12:1 in order
to insure that you burn all the availble air. The power valve channels, which
the opening of the power valve exposes, accomplish this enrichment. The power
valve bases its opening on engine inches of vacumn. The 7.5 and 6.5 you 
referred to tell that they will begin to open at these vacumn readings.
In actual practice, I think you would be probably hard pressed to feel the
difference between these two power valves. The only time it becomes a real 
problem is if you have a lot of cam (>250@.050) and aren't generating the
required vacumn to keep the power valve shut at light cruise and idle.

							Greg

----------
Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 19:18:02 1992
Subject: Re: Blank Mail
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> 	Is it just me or has everyone gotten about 40 blank messages in
> the past 3 days? The messages I have gotten with things in them have been
> very encouraging! Exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for :)
> 
> 						Greg
> 
> ----------
> Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 
> --
I haven't gotten any blank messagfes but I don't seem to be able to 
get one across!  Will someone lemme know if you see this?

Dwight Brantley
brantley@falab1!b21.ingr.com

----------
Posted by: brantley@infonode.ingr.com (Dwight D. Brantley)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 19:18:22 1992
Subject: info,details of HR newsgroup
To: hotrod@dixie.com

	Thank you for posting the notice to rec.autos for the newly established 
 hotrod group.  I believe I followed your directions correctly on subscribing to
it by mailing a request to you.  I am not sure, however, in how to acced" from my computer.  I am relatively new to the network.  I usually just go o my "vi .newsrc" file and sift through various groups and pick the ones I like.
I noticed that some of the articles from "hotrod" did indeed get to me through
my mailbox.  I would like to know if "hotrod" is listed so I can just type in 
 for example, "nn rec.autos.hotrod" instead of receiving posts through my
mailbox which has limited capacity.  Any information you can give me on this
issue would be greatly appreciated.  You can get back to me by e-mailing to 
rmc58125@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu .  Keep up the great effort.  I hope to hear from
you soon.  

----------
Posted by: Richard Matthew Chin 
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 19:26:25 1992
Subject: Radiator testing
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>How about too high of a flow-rate John?  Where the coolant does not
>remain in the radiator long enough to get rid of it's heat?  I think
>this is what I'm experiencing with my overheating problem.

    

There!  That rumor is finally dead!  I know the hotrod magazines like to 
parrot it but it just ain't true.  Think of it in terms of fluid dynamics
and thermodynamics.  What does higher flow get you?  turbulence.  What
does turbulence do?  It strips away the boundary layer of stagnant water
on the surface of the radiator tube.  As to not having time to get rid
of the heat, do a simple thought experiment.  if the water is moving 
twice as fast as before, it only has half the time as before to deposit
its heat.  BUT.  It will also come back around twice as often.  It 
all balances out.  The net win is the increased turbulence.

One reason this rumor persists is that the 2 most popular purported cures 
actually work sometimes.  The first "cure" is to slow the water pump with
a larger pulley.  The problem that is actually solved is the fact that
many stock pumps will cavitate at even moderate RPM.  A cavitating pump
is very inefficient.  The second "cure", restricting the outlet of the
engine, pressureizes the block a bit more so that at higher engine
speeds, the boiling point of the water is raised.  That works to preventing
local boiling on stagnant areas.  Steam bubbles can slow or stop
flow through small passages.  The increased pressure also cuts down on
cavitation.

"Stock Car Racing" did an exhaustive article on the subject.  The guy 
who owns Stewart Racing pumps actually built a water pump dyno and
demonstrated all of these effects.  There is also a significant
body of literature within the SAE addressing this problem.

>>Care must be taken to make sure the tubes actually are static taps and
>>do not have any dynamic pressure on them.  This is best assured by 
>>making the tubes perfectly perpendicular to the air flow.
>
>Could be tough with a angled radiator... :^(

No.  You don't want the taps facing into the flow, you want them to extend
in from the side or top, in other words, perpendicular to the flow.
Any angle off perpendicular to the flow will introduce a component of 
dynamic pressure.

>Had the same problem on the clutch-fan on my Corvette..  The unit
>looks like it is sealed to me though John, how did you get yours open?

The one on my Datsun is held together with 4 6mm bolts.  Just unscrew
'em and pry the clutch open.

>Great article John -- I love this kinda' talk!

Thanks.  Been waiting for this forum for a LOOOONG time.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 21 19:46:22 1992
Subject: All those duplicate messages
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I know why some of you got many duplicate messages.  Because I got
duplicate subscription requests for you.  One person had 4.  I save
all the subscription messages so I could go back and check.

I cannot find a reason for blank messages.  I've spent over an hour
testing today, including going through all the uucp D.files to
make sure they have text after sending a test message.  I have
added a feature.  There is an additional field in the header called
X-Sequence:  This field is incremented with each message.  You'll 
be able to track the messages and see if you missed any.

John

----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Feb 20 16:43:56 1992
Subject: Ohhh! Shelby Cobra
To: hotrod@dixie.com


I went to a strategy meeting last night for our local anti-gun-control
group.   I met a new member by the name of Arni Katz.  Arni's a film
director and artist.  He did that liquid-metal-to-droid sequence in
"Terminator II".  He was telling us about his Mac with 8 GB of hard drive
and a bunch of other mac crap that I'm not interested in.  I happened 
to mention cars.  We talked racing a bit and about some of my work
on fuel injection.  When we were through, he invited me over to his 
shop for a little surprise.

Well I walked in this place and what did I find but a pristine 
Shelby Cobra 455.  No kit car this, it's a genuwine original.  He 
explained that he took it in trade for some movie work he had done
when the guy could not pay.  He asked me if I'd like to take it for
a drive (does a bear shit in the woods?!)  I decided to wait for
daylight so I'm headed over tomorrow with camera in hand to give
this jewel a shot.  

There really IS a God!!!

Report to follow.
John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC        | "I'm a lawyer but I guess I'm also human." 
Rapid Deployment System, Inc. |             Ian Zimmerman. 
Marietta, Ga                  |      Lawyer for the purse snatcher
jgd@dixie.com                 |   scum who sued the taxi driver in 'Frisco.

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 14:00:59 1992
Subject: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 According to the Holley book, the power valve has two components to its
behavior. The valves are sold by the crack vacuum pressure (inHg) as has
been mantioned. The flow however, which really determines the amount as
opposed to the point of enrichment, is determined by "power valve channel
restrictors". These are apparently separate from the valve itself and not
as easy to change or to get; the local speed shop has a wall full of jet
packs and power valves, but restrictor replacements are special-order. I
think maybe the moral here is that they do not typically need modification.

 You could be bogging due to several things (less than comprehensive list).
Especially at low RPM, being over-carb'ed is a common problem. Insufficient
flow gives lousy metering. The accelerator pump is supposed to correct this
but may take a fair bit of messing to get right. There is an "experimenter's
fun kit" of accelerator pump cams from Holley that contains about 10 different
profiles. Trouble is (and therefore I haven't even opened the one I bought)
there seems to be no helpful info on how to determine beforehand which one
might be the best for a particular behavior. It looks like you just have to
run through them and decide on the best using the ole whiplash gauge.

 If you bog & knock then you may have too much base advance. If the knocking
is only for an instant then the vacuum advance mechanism may be slow in
releasing and in need of lube etc. If there is no knock but it sounds "fat"
then maybe too little base advance, possibly being made up for by excess
vacuum advance. A recurving of the distributor may be worthwhile; this is
a popular activity which is again somewhat more subjective than it ought to
be, but some of the "How to hotrod your xxxx" will have info on what the
best starting guess at advance profile is.

 I have been working against the same sort of behavior on my car, which is
probably a worst-case example of sorts - a 231 V-6 with a 750CFM Holley.
I have finally gotten the thing to move acceptably (a tiny bit of knock at
WOT, no bog) by changing and rechanging jets and twiddling the ignition
advance. A single degree does make a big difference; I haven't recurved but
just the base idle is a big component, since that [should be/is] all that's
in the picture when it's opened up at low speed. A vacuum gauge is nice; 
I put one in the dash and at half pedal at low speed it drops right down to 
0; that there is one indication that you are overcarbed. Modulating the
pedal to get variations in vacuum and judging the acceleration can give
useful clues. The other end of the picture is at high RPM WOT, if your
vacuum starts to rise suddenly before you're done trying, then you'd like
a bit more flow. For maximum latitude you have to have two small carbs in
a progressive linkage arrangement; however most of us make do with a
compromise solution.

 Another thought - if you have solid secondaries try disabling them. Double
pumpers are popular but a bit impractical off the track; they require more
attention to the pedal because they only do what they are told. If it's a
vacuum secondary, also try disabling the secondaries just for yucks; if the
bog goes away then you might want to try out different springs in the
actuator biscuit to hold off opening. The enabling linkage can also be
bent to change the opening allowed.

 Dunno if you have an automatic. If so, the auto shift points should be set
to compliment the engine's modified performance. Most performance cams do
give a slight loss of low end to enhance the high end power. Therefore the
trans should kick down sooner and stay in longer. Adjustments to the pedal
linkage and/or the vacuum modulator and/or governor can all be used to make
the engine stay in the range of best performance. Pedal linkage is the easiest
to change. I dunno if there are externally adjustable vacuum modulators; I
seem to recall seeing them tho. 


 Now here's a beef. I've been having a problem with the 650 el cheapo Holley
(1850?) in my van; the float valve in the secondary occasionally stays open
and the bowl overflows. This kills the idle (soot city) and I got stranded
on the off ramp the other day.

 Well, I finally open up the back bowl and crank that sucker down to shut
it off. I had to replace the gasket. I take off the metering plate and
what do I find?

 No fuel orifice! The plate's a dummy! No holes. Zip.

 So they sell you a "bargain four barrel", except two of the barrels don't
get any fuel. Is that swell or what?


 Anybody familiar with nitrous systems? I know this guy who used to be into
the street racing scene but has given it up. He sez he has a bunch of stuff
left over in his garage, among which is a NOS nitrous system. He says he'll
take $150 for it but I'm not sure if I want to give it; I have a couple of
reservations. First, I have no idea what a new setup costs (bottle, plate
and control). Second, the nitrous systems seem to have been evolving a bit
and I'm not sure the how the more primitive ( ca. 1980 ) setups stack up to
the current state of the art; I know there were problems with unexpected
lean-out, engine go boom sort of things. Any advice? I'd be saving the
system for the 455 project, for times when cubic inches aren't enough.

----------
Posted by: jws@mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 14:04:39 1992
Subject: Which should be faster?
To: hotrod@dixie.com

    Hope that no one will be to erritated by the following:


    I plan on having several races this summer with other local hotrodders and
have been gearing up my car to meet the challenges.  Over the winter another
"project" of a local cruiser was finished and I was wondering what my chances
of winning this car in a drag is.  The following is a description of the
two cars:


Mine: 1969 GTX 440
------------------
440RB bored .04 with new standard forged steel crank and forged TRW flattops.
906 heads with new valves, etc.
278 Crane cam, Offenhauser 360 degree dual-4 manifold w/ 2 500 Carter 4-barrels
Mallory dual-point distributor, Accel supercoil, and Moroso wires.
Planed heads and pistons yeild a 9.7 to one compression ratio.
Dana 60 with 4.10 and a LIKE NEW hemi 4-speed transmission.
N50-15 Mickey Thompson Sportsman 'I's and traction bars.


His: 1984 Monte Carlo 350 with B&M 4-71 blower
----------------------------------------------
1971 350 bored .01 with stock crank turned .01 and forged TRW 8-1 pistons.
B&M 4-71 blower with 750 Holley carb.
1.94 heads with new valves, have been ported and polished.
Stock HEI with new wires.
350 Turbo Transmission with Holeshot convertor and shift-kit.
Stock 10-bolt rear with new posi unit and .373 gears.
Presently has 275-50s BFGs, but wil have N50-15 Mickeys mentioned above.



I'm sure I left alot of unknowns, but I don't know a whole lot about his car.
I would like to know which car should win in an: 1/8th mile race, 1/4 mile
race, rolling along at 55 and punching them?

                                       Thanks in adnvance,
                                       Troy D. Veilleux
                                       69' GTX OWNER

----------
Posted by: VEILLEUX@MAINE.maine.edu (Troy D. Veilleux)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 14:08:09 1992
Subject: Re: Radiator testing
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>>How about too high of a flow-rate John?  Where the coolant does not
>>remain in the radiator long enough to get rid of it's heat?  I think
>>this is what I'm experiencing with my overheating problem.
>
>    
>
>There!  That rumor is finally dead!  I know the hotrod magazines like to 
>parrot it but it just ain't true.  Think of it in terms of fluid dynamics

If you don't believe John just remove your thermostat an see how well your
engine runs at 100 degrees.

Damon van Dam

----------
Posted by: dvd@eng.ufl.edu
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 12:25:40 1992
Subject: FI questions
To: hotrod@dixie.com


	Ok  so I see the debates started on power valve and accel pumps.
	My $.02-> good luck. Get the small (physically small) red cover
	HOLLEY book. (Sorry I dont have it at work so I cant describe it 
	better) Some good suggestions in it.
	Someone mentioned port fuel injection as a 'cure' for some of these
	carb related problems (John??) I've repaired Saab and VW systems 
	(in another life :) ) but have limited practicle knowledge in this 
	area. I run a 69 chevelle (usually a 355/th350 4:88, 3500 stall
	3050 lbs) that runs about a 12:10/111. (Currently it has a 323
	thats a 327 .030, but destroked to I dont know what. Needed an
	engine quick this past summer and this was all I could find.)
	It also runs about 12:10 unless I shift it at 8000 (best 11:86)
	Anyway, I've been 'looking' at FI for about 2 years, and 
	alcohol, too, but FI is BUCKS. Alcohol carb seems the 'cheap' 
	way for more (Would like to propel this beast into the 10's
	with something like a 355-391) FI looks great, but the
	'gas wasters' (mechanical a-la hilborn or crower) do just that.
	Waste gas. They also COST a lot. The question: Does anyone
	have any DIRECT drag strip experiences they can share with 
	electronic FI (stack type, monovalve, or TPI style.)
	Costs? 
	(Around here, alcohol carb conversions run about $300 for carb only
	lines/tanks/pumps extra. Used stack injection goes for $800-$1200
	tank and some additional plumbing required)
	Electronic port ?????
	Additional setup costs (ie: is a PC needed to 'tune' it, cost, 
	software to manage it? Ease of use?)


	Derek.

----------
Posted by: derekp@gvls1.GVL.Unisys.COM (Derek J. Pietro)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 12:30:10 1992
Subject: MArk VII rears
To: hotrod@dixie.com



  >Recently it has been suggested to me that a Lincoln Mark VII 
  >LSC rear end can be swapped onto a late model mustang,
  >providing a 8.8" traction-loc rear, 3.27 gears, rear
  >disc brakes and 5-bolt rotors all in one fell swoop.
  >
  >My project car is a '79 Mustang 5.0 sleeper.  I was
  
   [ stuff deleted ]

  >Any comments, suggestions or rumors are welcomed at
  >jkurien@rdrc.rpi.edu


Is the Lincoln Mark VII the same as the Lincoln Versailles?
The Lincoln Versailles rear has been attracting the interest 
of street rodders for some time because it is the correct width 
for Fords of the late thirties.  It has all of the advantages you 
attribute to the Mark VII.  However, Ralph Lisena, MSME and 
proprietor of Engineered Components, Inc,  supplier of brake 
systems to street rodders, warns everybody to stay away from the 
Versailles rear.  I remember him saying that parts availability 
is extremely difficult and that available parts are extremely 
expensive.  This is born out by anecdotal evidence that comes my way. 
I've heard of somebody who got a rear without calipers from a 
wrecking yard only to find out that they could not get calipers 
anywhere or, as in another case, calipers were >$400 each.

I'd suggest you look into the 9-inch rears with disc brakes that came on
some Granadas and Monarchs.  They're kinda' rare but I see them changing
hands for under $500.  And, as we all know, there are LOTS of gear
changes available for the 9-inchers.


Frank Carey at Bell Labs  '37 Ford  400/350(8") :-)   f.e.carey@att.com

----------
Posted by: fec@mhuxo.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 12:34:13 1992
Subject: Legality of Modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com


On Saturday, 22Feb, I picked the paper here is Little Rock
to look through the classifieds for cars and parts.  They
run an auto Q & A column, and I usually read it.  The first 
question of the day was from some guy who wanted to swap the
305 in his 84 Camaro with a 350.  Someone told him it was
against federal law to do so.

The column writer responded that yes, this was true.  He quoted 
some law number and said that since 1 Jan 1992 it is illegal,
even for an individual to alter the orginal configuration of
the engine, emmisions, and electronics os an auto, with a
possible $2500 fine.

What is this?  How can such an insane law exist?  This is supposedly
a clean air act law.  But, if you can't alter the original configuration,
can my electronics professor legally put an eletric motor in his VW
Rabbit?  Now, I know my MGB with Weber DCOE carb and Hepolite flat top
pistons and high lift cam are in obvious opposition to the idea of clean
internal combusiton engines, but in a stupid attempt to stop high 
performance modificaitons, have they actually made it illegal to install
a cleaner powerplant?

Automotive enthusiasts have no unified voice to fight these repressive laws.
Our cars, while built for high performance, our also well maintained.
We don't allow our engines to run in a degraded state like the Toyota
I saw the other day, complete with greenpeace stickers, and blowing
more oil smoke than a Kuwaiti oil-field fire.

Anyone interested in fighting this kind of legislation, and/or in joining
an organization to politically fight for the right to high-performance,
please email me (kmwheeler@ualr.edu).

It is time to unite.

"...he said it used to be a farm, before the motor law."
        -Rush   'Red Barchetta'


----------
Posted by: kmwheeler@UALR.EDU



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 12:35:32 1992
Subject: Re: carb question
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Subject: carb question
> From: hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu (The Hotrod List)
> To: hotrod@dixie.com
> X-Sequence: 19
> Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu
> 
> I currently have a holley 600 cfm universal sitting on my edelbrock performer
> intake manifold, which is all in a plymouth duster with a 360, which is just
> slightly over stock for 360's. But i have been having problems with my holley
> since the start and am looking to replace it with something a little more
> reliable with out sacraficing to much power. 
> 	I have been told that Edelbrocks are good reliable carbs, but they
> do not give the same performance as a holley, and I was considering maybe
> going with a carter too, but have not made up my mind yet. I want to stay
> around the 600 cfm, vacumn assist(or maybe even mechanical) secondaries,
> with an electric choke, as it is a daily driver. But i was wondering others
> opinions on the quality and performance of Edelbrocks vs Carters or possible
> even another holley, with a trick kit and all, any ideas or thoughts are 
> welcomed.

My '70 Challenger (340ci) has a Holley 1850 (600cfm) on a Performer
intake, and I am quite happy with it.  It can be challenging to set up
a Holley properly, as there are many adjustments, some of which depend
on others: throttle cams and springs on the secondaries, to name a
few.  These items must be set according to the engine vacuum, etc., and
usually come set up for a fairly stock engine.  With about 4lb. of
vacuum, the stock spring wasn't even opening the secondaries until
about 40 mph, and they probably were never completely open.

I would reccommend that you buy a book on Holley carbs and an
adjustment kit (which comes with springs of varying tensions, etc.),
and go though it and adjust it to your engine (according to manifold
vacuum and rpm's at 60mph, for example).  They may not be terribly
simple to set up, but they work really well once the proper adjustments
are made.
____________________________________________________________________________
          _______________
        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |			Dan Harling
   0  / /_________________\ \| 0		(harling@pictel.com)
    ---------------------------
  / /======|=D=O=D=G=E=|======\ \		Opinions expressed here
  \_____________________________/		are mine, all mine!!!
  \    _______       _______    /
  |\ _/|__|__|\_____/|__|__|\_ /|		'70 Dodge Challenger
  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |		340 4-bbl.
  |______|               |______|

----------
Posted by: harling@roadrunner.pictel.com (Dan Harling)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 13:36:51 1992
Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> You can try to do this by the seat of the pants but a much better way is
> to actually observe the operation of the carb while underway.  Now I
> have strapped myself on top of an engine and had a friend drive the car
> while I peered down the carb throat.  Not recommended!  A much more 
> practical technique is to mount a small video camera over the carb
> inlet and video the operation.  Much easier on the eye when the damn
> thing spits back.

A good, cheap eyebrow saver here is to use a mirror to look down the
carb.  It's good for those of us who can't affoard video cameras!  Heck,
I've seen a carb spit back, where it would probably set your head on
fire.

-Larry Harris-                |  '86 Mustang lx 5.0 notchback
lharris@hubcap.clemson.edu    |  Meyer's Tow'd Dune Buggy
lharris@clemson.bitnet        |  OS-9, a leaner meaner UNIX
Clemson Computer Engineering  |  RUSH, YES, R.E.M, The Who

----------
Posted by: lharris@hubcap.clemson.edu (Larry Harris)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 13:43:55 1992
Subject: Edelbrock vs. Carter carbs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I have used both the Edelbrock Performer and the Carter AFB carbs.  They
are extremely similar because Edelbrock bought the rights to manufacture
the Carter design.  I believe that this happened at about the same time
that Carter ceased to exist (it became a part of Federal Mogul).

The later production AFBs from Carter did not run as well as the early
ones.  I couldn't visually see any obvious reason why; perhaps the
line workers knew about the upcoming sale of their company and ceased
to care?

Anyhow, the Edelbrock version is based on the Carter AFB but has a
number of changes.  They left out one of the top cover screws, used
Torx head screws in most places except for the cover screws, and
changed the design of the venturies.  I believe that the new design
uses an annular ring which is supposed to give better fuel/air
mixing at low air velocities.  These carbs do seem to be better in
the street driveability department.

Both designs suffer from accelerator pump problems.  The older pumps
used a cup made from what appears to be leather; this tends to lose
its sealing ability with time and gives you a slowly weakening pump
shot.  The newer cups seem to be a synthetic; they shouldn't deteriorate
with time.  Probably the biggest problem with the accelerator pump
system is its relative lack of adjustability.  You have a choice of
shooter nozzle sizes (3 sizes available: too small, small, and not
quite large enough), and pump leverage.  The leverage controls how
long the pump shot lasts, not how much of a shot you get.  The size
of the nozzle controls how much of a shot you get, and also how long
it lasts.  If anyone knows where to get bigger nozzles I would like
to hear from you.

The primary and secondary jets are identical (except for part numbers)
between Edelbrock and Carter.  So are the metering rods.  Edelbrock
offers several rod and jet kits but they have a small number of items
in them.  Carter used to sell (and you can still find them at many
parts stores) a strip kit which contains a fairly good assortment of
rods and jets.  Interestingly, the metering rods are different between
the kits but some of the jet sizes are the same.  Buying one of each
kit will get you a wide variety of choices.

Both of these carbs use a secondary air valve to control the phasing
in of the secondaries.  This seems to work well for most engines but
it has only limited adjustability.  There is no secondary accelerator
pump because the air valve smoothly phases in the secondaries which
eliminates the need to cover a lean spot when the secondaries open.

I hope that this sheds some enlightenment for those of you considering
either of these carbs.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

----------
Posted by: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 13:50:09 1992
Subject: Re: MArk VII rears
To: hotrod@dixie.com

A quick answer on the Lincoln Vers 9 inchers(77-80 only) they are one and
the same as the Grandadas and Monarchs--58 1/2 inches Rotor face to rotor
face and they bolt into the 65/66 Mustangs.  Parts are available but the 
usual dealer list or auto parts store list applies as they aren't that
popular.  If you already have the calipers, you can rebuild them yourself
or swap for rebuilt as a core.  Local brake and clutch services will so
this also at a good price.  I am using a Street Rod Manufacuring(SRM) bracket,
$100.00 bucks, mid size GM rear calipers(readily available and cheap in the 
doit yourself wrecking yards--35 bucks for the pair here in San Diego) and 
84-86 Ford Mustang SVO rotors(75 bucks each at any auto parts store) on my 
roadster.  The setup is great and a true bolton.  SRM advertises in all
the Street Rod Mags.  Hope this helps. Mike Brattland

----------
Posted by: brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil (CDR Michael Brattland)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 13:56:59 1992
Subject: Re: Legality of Modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>The column writer responded that yes, this was true.  He quoted 
>some law number and said that since 1 Jan 1992 it is illegal,
>even for an individual to alter the orginal configuration of
>the engine, emmisions, and electronics os an auto, with a
>possible $2500 fine.
>
>What is this?  How can such an insane law exist?  This is supposedly
>a clean air act law.  

>Automotive enthusiasts have no unified voice to fight these repressive laws.
>Our cars, while built for high performance, our also well maintained.
>We don't allow our engines to run in a degraded state like the Toyota

Before we get our fretting machines revved to the redline, let's look
at the situation.  The Clean Air Act (CAA) of 91 did change things around
but in my opinion, for the better.  It does transfer liability for
making modifications directly to the owner which is not good.  
It's made it hard to buy out and out racing parts for your street engine.
BUT we now have a legal and easy way of doing high performance if it's clean.

First off, the CAA, along with an EPA ruling now specifically DOES allow
putting later model engines in earlier vehicles of the same type.
So if I want to take the wheezing 350 out of my 79 El Camino and drop in
a late model Corvette engine, I can now do it legally if I install
all the emission equipment.  In the bad old days, I would have had to 
go through the whole OEM emission certification test battery just like
GM does.

Secondly, the EPA had agreed to accept California Air Resources
Board  Executive Orders and certification procedures as valid
for the whole US.  What does that mean? CARB  has had a
procedure for several years whereby an aftermarket  manufacturer
could SELF-CERTIFY his high performance part as being  as good
or better than OEM parts for a car or a line of cars.  Once
certified, the vendor can supply a copy of the EO with the part
and emissions stations will pass the vehicle assuming it passes
the sniff test.  Vendors of components not likely to affect
emissions such as  aftermarket electronic ignition systems can
get blanket EOs which covers their entire line for all cars. 
Jacobs Electronics had done this for their ignitions, for
example.  The self-certification process is a  small subset of
the OEM certification and involves not much more than a runup on
the dyno with a sniffer in the tailpipe. 

Can you make clean horsepower?  Sure as hell can.  A quick purusual of
the catalogs shows things like high flow cat converters, EO'd carbs and
manifolds, cams and all the rest.  Several aftermarket fuel injection
makers including EFI, NOS, and Electromotive either have or will soon
have EOs for many popular engines.  Now you're not gonna be able to 
hang a couple of 750 cfm carbs off your 350 small block and go lumping
down the road.  But in my book, that's a plus.  

Let's remember too, that a vehicle only has to meet specs for its model
year.  So I could take my '79 El Camino, put an extensively modified 
engine in it, hang a high performance cat off the back and meet the
79 emission specs.

Who can we thank for working all of this out?  SEMA.  SEMA has a nice 
certification kit available to people who want to self-certify a 
part.  They also maintain a list of facilities that do the certification
testing.

We should all be happy at this point.  EPA has given us a legal avenue
to high performance where none existed before.  If anyone is in the 
mood for writing letters, send one to the EPA asking that the current
procedures be made permanent (they are now provisional) and write to
SEMA thanking them for fixing things.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 14:03:35 1992
Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>> while I peered down the carb throat.  Not recommended!  A much more 
>> practical technique is to mount a small video camera over the carb
>> inlet and video the operation.  Much easier on the eye when the damn
>> thing spits back.
>
>A good, cheap eyebrow saver here is to use a mirror to look down the
>carb.  It's good for those of us who can't affoard video cameras!  Heck,
>I've seen a carb spit back, where it would probably set your head on
>fire.

I've never had much luck with a mirror.  Too much vibration.  My camera
is a cheap CCTV security camera I bought surplus for less than $100.
The nice part is it runs on 12 volts DC.  Look at it this way.  
$100 is cheaper than a driveshaft or rear end that could get broken as
the bog recovers and snaps power back on.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 14:13:45 1992
Subject: Re: Radiator testing
To: hotrod@dixie.com


In article  hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu writes:
>>>How about too high of a flow-rate John?  Where the coolant does not
>>>remain in the radiator long enough to get rid of it's heat?  I think
>>>this is what I'm experiencing with my overheating problem.
>>
>>    
>>
>>There!  That rumor is finally dead!  I know the hotrod magazines like to 
>>parrot it but it just ain't true.  Think of it in terms of fluid dynamics
>
>If you don't believe John just remove your thermostat an see how well your
>engine runs at 100 degrees.
>
>Damon van Dam

(Lifting myself up off the ground and dusting off ;^)  I take it Damon that
you are an engineer involved in thermodynamics, or remember much more than
I do from physics classes ;^)  It's not a matter of disbelieving John
categorically, Damon, it's from trying to resolve a problem that I have
with an engine that is overheating at times, and not coming up to
temperature at other times. I believe it to be caused by by either a
*strangely* defective thermostat, or no thermostat at all.

I'll know the answer soon -- the main hang up being I have to lift up the
blower a few inches to get to the thermostat housing.  I have a brand-new
high-flow thermostat ready to drop back into the block.

What throws me about my overheating problem, is that on a cool evening,
I can drive the car several miles (about 15-20 minutes) to our favorite
cruise spot, and the engine temperature will just barely rises off the
left peg of the meter, this would be impossible if the engine had a
thermostat.  On the other hand, I can also make the engine overheat with
a different set of circumstances -- such as driving at 50 M.P.H. for about
10 or 15 minutes.  This seems like a paradoxical situation according to
you -- you're telling me that if I take out my thermostat, the engine won't
run over 100 degrees no matter what, and yet, I have an overheating problem.

If my thermostat has a failure mode of sticking in one position, stuck open,
but not all the way, I would probably get the same results.  I don't think
I've seen this failure mode on a thermostat, but there are a lot of things I
haven't seen (and would like too ;^)  In fact, I'll be overjoyed if my new
thermostat fixes the problem.  I promise to let everyone here know what
I find in the next couple of weeks.

Just one point here on Johns posting.  I believe the reason I have a little
trouble accepting the premise that too high of a flow through the radiator
would not cause overheating is this:

If I shut off the flow of hot water *to* the radiator, that water trapped
in the radiator should cool (if allowed, down to ambient.)  Granted,
the water trapped in the engine is now getting hotter.  If we relase a
'spurt' of cooler water into the engine, displacing an equal volume of
hot water, then close the thermostat, this cooler water now begins to
absorb heat energy while the 'spurt' that went to the radiator is cooling.
Now, which one is more efficient?  Remember, the coolant in the block
recirculates until it has absorbed enough heat to open the thermostat --
the radiator does not have this luxury of being able to hold coolant until
it's at a low enough temperature to send back to the engine...

Efficiency of the radiator I would guess (and that word will probably kill
my argument ;^) is determined by how "fast" it can get rid of the heat.
If I reduce the airflow through the radiator, it will not be able to get
rid of its heat.  By decreasing the flow through radiator, I have effectively
increased its efficiency by keeping the coolant in the radiator longer.  Of
course this assumes that the radiator has the capacity to cool the engine
when used properly.  With that *same* amount of airflow through the radiator,
but the flow rate of the coolant increased, wouldn't the coolant not have
enough time to get rid of the heat?  I believe the thermostat controls that
flow rate of coolant through the radiator..

Having written the above and reading it over, I thought I'd give the people
at "Custom Auto Radiator" (a company that designs and builds custom made
radiators for antiques, hotrods and restored automobiles) a call and ask to
speak to their engineer.  I told him about the problem I'm seeing, and
expecting him to try to sell me a new radiator ;^) his first response was
that the flow through the radiator is too high!  He made several suggestions
as to the fixes that could be done.

I very much value Johns opinion, and  not wanting to start a hotly disputed ;^)
radiator war where everyone gets steamed ;^) I'm just going to cool down ;^)
(I can't believe I punned three times in one sentence!) -- I'll just report
back on what I find and we can take up the discussion from there.

Take care all, I really am enjoying our new group!

-- 
AT&T              |           This space          |  (708)-859-4485
Phil Gunsul       |          intentionally        |  prg@mgweed.ATT.COM
Montgomery, IL    |           left blank..        |  AT&T Information Systems


----------
Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 14:33:10 1992
Subject: Re: MArk VII rears
To: hotrod@dixie.com

A quick answer on the Lincoln Vers 9 inchers(77-80 only) they are one and
the same as the Grandadas and Monarchs--58 1/2 inches Rotor face to rotor
face and they bolt into the 65/66 Mustangs.  Parts are available but the 
usual dealer list or auto parts store list applies as they aren't that
popular.  If you already have the calipers, you can rebuild them yourself
or swap for rebuilt as a core.  Local brake and clutch services will so
this also at a good price.  I am using a Street Rod Manufacuring(SRM) bracket,
$100.00 bucks, mid size GM rear calipers(readily available and cheap in the 
doit yourself wrecking yards--35 bucks for the pair here in San Diego) and 
84-86 Ford Mustang SVO rotors(75 bucks each at any auto parts store) on my 
roadster.  The setup is great and a true bolton.  SRM advertises in all
the Street Rod Mags.  Hope this helps. Mike Brattland

----------
Posted by: brattlan@nprdc.navy.mil (CDR Michael Brattland)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 14:33:10 1992
Subject: HOLLEYS
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Hi gang! Glad to be with you.

This is in response to the post dealing with the 600 Holley on
the 360 Mopar and Holleys in general.

You didn't say what problems you were having. Is the carb new or
used? If new, it probably needs some tuning. The post dealing with
accelerator pump tuning was good. I assume that we are refering
to a "list #" 1850 which should be quite close right out of the
box.

If the carb is used there can be a bunch of things wrong. I would
suggest a rebuild using real Holley parts. Dunk it in carb cleaner
and then use spray cleaner to shoot through all of the passages. 
Assemble it carefully and set things to factory specs. This should
at least get you to a baseline to work from.

A common problem with used Holleys is a warped metering block. This
will drive you nuts! The thing will work great for a couple of weeks
or longer and then go rich. The plugs will soot up, response goes
away etc. So you replace the metering block gasket and wait for it to
happen again. What happens is fuel finds it's way into the area
behind the power valve and goes directly into the manifold. There is
a fix but I haven't tried it. The Carburetor Shop, (ph 714-947-7744)
makes a metering block straightening fixture. Sounds like a neat
deal to me. I just don't have enough bad ones to justify the price..
..yet!

The Edelbrock and Carter carbs are similar. Edelbrock has made
improvements over the Carter design and I beleive they are made
by Weber. Should be the better of the two. It should also make 
very similar power to the Holley.

Also, the engine combination is important to the way the carb
functions. Things such as the ignition curve, the initial timing,
the type of camshaft and how it is timed, the exhaust system etc.
Even the torque convertor (if auto) and the rear end ratio figure
in. Especially if you have a low end problem. 600 CFM sounds good.
It's all in the combination.

If you can, try a friends carb that is working. This helps get you
calibrated.

I had great luck with Q-jets between the 68-70 model years. Very
highly tuneable and responsive.  But a Q-jet on a MOPAR!!!!
Maybe if you left the hood closed! ha ha

Good luck. Hope I helped a bit.

Ron Selberg

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 14:53:06 1992
Subject: Re: carb question
To: hotrod@dixie.com


In article  hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu writes:
<>I currently have a holley 600 cfm universal sitting on my edelbrock performer
<>intake manifold, which is all in a plymouth duster with a 360, which is just
<>slightly over stock for 360's. But i have been having problems with my holley
<>since the start and am looking to replace it with something a little more
<>reliable with out sacraficing to much power. 
<>	I have been told that Edelbrocks are good reliable carbs, but they
<>do not give the same performance as a holley, and I was considering maybe
<>going with a carter too, but have not made up my mind yet. I want to stay
<>around the 600 cfm, vacumn assist(or maybe even mechanical) secondaries,
<>with an electric choke, as it is a daily driver. But i was wondering others
<>opinions on the quality and performance of Edelbrocks vs Carters or possible
<>even another holley, with a trick kit and all, any ideas or thoughts are 
<>welcomed.
<>thanks
<>
<>----------
<>Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu
<--

I was under the impression that Carter had been bought out by Edelbrock, but
I have nothing written down that says that..  I have a pair of the Edelbrock
600's, having replaced a pair of Carter 750's (way to much carb for driving
around town ;^)  The improved low end performance made the rod much more
manageable and responsive.

Posted by: kmwheeler@UALR.EDU
>
>The column writer responded that yes, this was true.  He quoted 
>some law number and said that since 1 Jan 1992 it is illegal,
>even for an individual to alter the orginal configuration of
>the engine, emmisions, and electronics os an auto, with a
>possible $2500 fine.

If you get more information on this I'd really like to hear about it.
Does this apply to cars newer than 92. Or to past years also. 
If that's true They just destroyed all of my fun.
The way I feel is, the new hybrid car should meet the tightest spec, either
the car's or the engine's, which ever is tighter.  There should not be
blanket laws that say Thow shalt not touch your car.

Brian

1962 Ford Thames panel     2.6L V-6 4SP 8"
1967 Mercedes 250S         302  V-8 C4
1971 Ford Pinto            302  V-8 C4  P/S P/B A/C
1980 Ford Fiesta           1.9L EFI HO 5SP.  (out of an Escort GT)

P.S. am I going to Jail?  :-(

----------
Posted by: brianpi@tekig6.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 15:01:02 1992
Subject: Re: Radiator testing
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Just one point here on Johns posting.  I believe the reason I have a little
>trouble accepting the premise that too high of a flow through the radiator
>would not cause overheating is this:
>
>If I shut off the flow of hot water *to* the radiator, that water trapped
>in the radiator should cool (if allowed, down to ambient.)  Granted,
>the water trapped in the engine is now getting hotter.  If we relase a
>'spurt' of cooler water into the engine, displacing an equal volume of
>hot water, then close the thermostat, this cooler water now begins to
>absorb heat energy while the 'spurt' that went to the radiator is cooling.
>Now, which one is more efficient?  Remember, the coolant in the block
>recirculates until it has absorbed enough heat to open the thermostat --
>the radiator does not have this luxury of being able to hold coolant until
>it's at a low enough temperature to send back to the engine...

>I very much value Johns opinion, and  not wanting to start a hotly disputed ;^)
>radiator war where everyone gets steamed ;^) I'm just going to cool down ;^)
>(I can't believe I punned three times in one sentence!) -- I'll just report
>back on what I find and we can take up the discussion from there.

hey, we're a long ways away from the name calling stage. :-)

Let me walk you through a thought experiment.   Consider the instance
where the flowrate is just such that the outlet temperature of the 
radiator is near ambient.  Hot water going in, cold water going out.
maximum efficiency, right?  Wrong.  Assuming that the water loses its
heat linearly, the top part of the radiatior where the hot water is
dumps most all of the heat while the lower part where the water is at
ambient dumps almost none.  The part in between works proportionally.

Similarly, in the engine, where the cold water hits the block, maximum
heat is absorbed.  Where the now hot water exits, little heat is absorbed.
Cooling is non-uniform and worse, areas in the head that have the highest
heat load (such as around the exhaust ports) may suffer localized boiling.
Once a film of steam forms, almost all cooling is lost.


Now let's change things around a bit.  The flow is now so high that 
the radiator inlet and outlet temperatures are practically the same.
Consider what is happening now.  All areas of the radiator are at the
same temperature.  That means all areas of the radiator are contributing
equally to dumping  heat.  Maximum efficiency. 

Similarly, the water temperature in the block, by definition, is uniform.
The high water velocity scrubs the heat generation surfaces of steam and
air bubbles  and stagnant boundary layers.  Heat transfer is again optimized.

Just to give an extreme example, consider this.  I'm a nuke by training
and have spent much of my career making nuclear plants work a bit better.
So I'll use one as an example.  In a pressurized water reactor system,
heat is transfered from the fuel to steam via an intermediate, sealed
water loop called the primary coolant system.  There is a heat exchanger that 
is called the steam generator that takes hot reactor water in on one
side and boils lower pressure water on the other.  This scheme isolates
the radioactive primary coolant from the clean secondary steam system.

This system transfers 24,000,000,000 watts of heat continuously with 
less than a 20 degree F drop in coolant temperature!  Of course, the 
flow is in the millions of gallons per minute.  The fuel pins produce
heat at a rate of about 20 kilowatts per linear inch.  The extremely high 
flow is designed to mitigate all the same problems we've been discussing.
A very serious condition in a nuclear plant (and in a car engine) is called
DNB or Departure from Nucleatic Boiling.  Nucleatic boiling is similar
to what you see in a pot where steam bubbles seem to form at particular
points or nuculi.  This is very efficient in terms of heat transfer because
most of the surface remains wetted.  DNB means that boiling has expanded
to general film boiling (easy to see if you plunge a red hot piece of 
metal into water.  The shiny surface under the water for a few seconds is
film boiling.)  Film boiling means there is a layer of relatively poor
thermally conductive steam between the metal and the water.  In a 
nuclear plant, a DNB incident can result in melted fuel.  In a car
engine, it car result in local and severe oveheating.

Phil, you might be running into a problem I chased on my BMW for 
quite some time.  I'd get quick spikes of high temperature under certain
conditions.  The BMW temperature gauge is very fast.  What was happening
was because of a weak radiator cap that would not hold pressure, steam
bubbles were forming and collecting at the highest point in the engine
which happened to be where the thermometer sender was mounted.   I'd see
the temperature spike almost instantly to full scale and sit there until
I revved the engine a bit.   That would sweep away the steam and I'd
get a regular reading again.  If your temperature gauge is slow to respond,
it might be averaging such spikes to look like a uniformly high 
temperature.  The clue that I ignored for awhile was the fact that when
I opened the radiator to add water, there was practically no pressure.

>Having written the above and reading it over, I thought I'd give the people
>at "Custom Auto Radiator" (a company that designs and builds custom made
>radiators for antiques, hotrods and restored automobiles) a call and ask to
>speak to their engineer.  I told him about the problem I'm seeing, and
>expecting him to try to sell me a new radiator ;^) his first response was
>that the flow through the radiator is too high!  He made several suggestions
>as to the fixes that could be done.


Hey, what can I say?  All kinds of superstitions aboud.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 15:13:04 1992
Subject: Fiats and misc.
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 I bought an aftermarket header for my Fiat through a local exhaust shop back
when. The box said Monza. I found no improvement in performance whatsoever;
the cast iron does look like it's reasonably efficient as far as no sharp
turns & reasonable runner length.

 Holleys again: thanks for the info John. I have the big carb because I have
a roadmap which includes migrating to a bigger engine but I didn't want to
buy a little carb and then a big one. I have managed to eliminate bog pretty
well; my only problem is at low speed WOT the engine begins to miss. It runs
better at partial throttle, really pulls well for a small plant. The spring
on the accelerator pump is kept by a bolt & nut so the rate can be adjusted
over a fair range (along with pump travel); if the spring is fully
compressed then the cam would be the absolute controller of shot profile
(neglecting diaphragm compliance/rupture). Anyhow, I'm reasonably satisfied
with the Holley now given the context. Tightening down the spring is a good
starting point which I forgot about before (for the bog guy).

 John: about how many seconds of JATO does one get from a std. bottle of N2O
(at, say, +150HP)? How bad does the habit get?

----------
Posted by: hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 15:47:25 1992
Subject: Re: Radiator testing - Thermo 101
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>What throws me about my overheating problem, is that on a cool evening,
>I can drive the car several miles (about 15-20 minutes) to our favorite
>cruise spot, and the engine temperature will just barely rises off the
>left peg of the meter, this would be impossible if the engine had a
>thermostat.  On the other hand, I can also make the engine overheat with
>a different set of circumstances -- such as driving at 50 M.P.H. for about
>10 or 15 minutes.  This seems like a paradoxical situation according to
>you -- you're telling me that if I take out my thermostat, the engine won't
>run over 100 degrees no matter what, and yet, I have an overheating problem.

Sounds like a speed-dependent problem.  It could be that your water pump is 
going bad and it is cavitating (creating bubbles of air that screw everything 
up) once it gets past a certain speed.  Also, the power input to the water pump 
goes up with the square of the RPM of the input, so it might be that the belt 
is slipping past a certain RPM because the pump is sticky or cavitating and 
thus too much for the belt to turn (less likely).

Try running it at idle for 20-30 mins; what happens to the temp gauge? This is 
a good test because there is no air flow into the radiator.

>If my thermostat has a failure mode of sticking in one position, stuck open,
>but not all the way, I would probably get the same results.  I don't think
>I've seen this failure mode on a thermostat, but there are a lot of things I
>haven't seen (and would like too ;^)  In fact, I'll be overjoyed if my new
>thermostat fixes the problem.  I promise to let everyone here know what
>I find in the next couple of weeks.

It's not worth the effort to philosophize on a part so cheap and easy to change 
as a thermostat; just change it, and if the problem doesn't go away you're out 
$7.50.  Big Deal.

>
>Just one point here on Johns posting.  I believe the reason I have a little
>trouble accepting the premise that too high of a flow through the radiator
>would not cause overheating is this:

Believe it.


>If I shut off the flow of hot water *to* the radiator, that water trapped
>in the radiator should cool (if allowed, down to ambient.)  Granted,
>the water trapped in the engine is now getting hotter.  If we relase a
>'spurt' of cooler water into the engine, displacing an equal volume of
>hot water, then close the thermostat, this cooler water now begins to
>absorb heat energy while the 'spurt' that went to the radiator is cooling.
>Now, which one is more efficient?  Remember, the coolant in the block
>recirculates until it has absorbed enough heat to open the thermostat --
>the radiator does not have this luxury of being able to hold coolant until
>it's at a low enough temperature to send back to the engine...

>Efficiency of the radiator I would guess (and that word will probably kill
>my argument ;^) is determined by how "fast" it can get rid of the heat.
>If I reduce the airflow through the radiator, it will not be able to get
>rid of its heat.  By decreasing the flow through radiator, I have effectively
>increased its efficiency by keeping the coolant in the radiator longer.  Of
>course this assumes that the radiator has the capacity to cool the engine
>when used properly.  With that *same* amount of airflow through the radiator,
>but the flow rate of the coolant increased, wouldn't the coolant not have
>enough time to get rid of the heat?  I believe the thermostat controls that
>flow rate of coolant through the radiator..

Please forget about the notion of time.  The amount of water remains constant, 
so for every ounce of water that is coling off more because it sits in the 
radiator more there is an ounce of water heating up more because it's in the 
engine!

Think of it this way; imagine each particle of water is a person on the Peter 
Pan Ride in Disneyworld, where they've started a labor camp inside the ride.    
Each person chips off and carries out as much rock as he can (just as one water 
particle has a specific heat that says how much heat it can absorb).  Let's say 
you slow the ride down by two; now each person has time to pick up two times as 
much rock, but only half as many people go through as before; thus the same 
amount of money leaves the ride as before, except there's a limit to where 
things will stay even; eventually the ride will be so slow that the workers 
can't carry all the rock outside.  

So now I've proved that the flowrate doesn't matter, right? Well I left out one 
thing; the amount of heat water absorbs (analogous to the amount of money each 
person on the ride can carry) is a function of its specific heat capacity AND 
the temperature difference between itself and the thing it's cooling.  So 100 
deg water against a 100 deg plate moves no heat (as long as it's in one phase - 
all water or all gas - ignore this if its confusing!).  The heat capacity means 
that each pound of water can absorb a certain Btu quantity of heat; just like 
you can probabally only hold 500 quarters.  So you want to stay well below this 
limitation or else water will be flowing in the engine that isn't doing 
anything; thus its alot better to have lots of water particles cruising by each 
taking a little than having a few sauntering by absorbing as much as they can.   

The bottom line: when you need to remove more heat, you increase the flowrate 
of fluid and cooling air.  The time you refer to that the water needs to absorb 
heat is not very long especially for the small temperature differences (dT) 
between the water in the engine and the radiator (it's not like waiting 15 mins 
for water to boil!)

>
>Having written the above and reading it over, I thought I'd give the people
>at "Custom Auto Radiator" (a company that designs and builds custom made
>radiators for antiques, hotrods and restored automobiles) a call and ask to
>speak to their engineer.  I told him about the problem I'm seeing, and
>expecting him to try to sell me a new radiator ;^) his first response was
>that the flow through the radiator is too high!  He made several suggestions
>as to the fixes that could be done.
>
The answer is not to restrict and slow the flow; the answer is to increase the 
surface area of the radiator or make sure the flow is high enough.

>I very much value Johns opinion, and  not wanting to start a hotly disputed 
>;^)
>radiator war where everyone gets steamed ;^) I'm just going to cool down ;^)
>(I can't believe I punned three times in one sentence!) -- I'll just report
>back on what I find and we can take up the discussion from there.
>
>Take care all, I really am enjoying our new group!
>
>-- 
>AT&T              |           This space          |  (708)-859-4485
>Phil Gunsul       |          intentionally        |  prg@mgweed.ATT.COM
>Montgomery, IL    |           left blank..        |  AT&T Information Systems
>
>
>----------
>Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com
>


----------
Posted by: Matthew Walsh 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 15:48:00 1992
Subject: Re: Radiator testing
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> In article  hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu writes:
> It's not a matter of disbelieving John
> categorically, Damon, it's from trying to resolve a problem that I have
> with an engine that is overheating at times, and not coming up to
> temperature at other times. I believe it to be caused by by either a
> *strangely* defective thermostat, or no thermostat at all.

Don't forget the other parts of this system - coolant galleys and
coolant pump. 

> What throws me about my overheating problem, is that on a cool evening,
> I can drive the car several miles (about 15-20 minutes) to our favorite
> cruise spot, and the engine temperature will just barely rises off the
> left peg of the meter, this would be impossible if the engine had a
> thermostat.

I think that you are probably right about that...

> On the other hand, I can also make the engine overheat with
> a different set of circumstances -- such as driving at 50 M.P.H. for about
> 10 or 15 minutes.

This could be a combination of a stuck thermostat and a weak water pump.

> This seems like a paradoxical situation according to
> you -- you're telling me that if I take out my thermostat, the engine won't
> run over 100 degrees no matter what, and yet, I have an overheating problem.

Provided you are getting good coolant circulation, including a good flow rate
through the radiator, a thermostat that is stuck open can't cause more of
an overheat than you already have with a good thermostat.

> If my thermostat has a failure mode of sticking in one position, stuck open,
> but not all the way, I would probably get the same results.  I don't think
> I've seen this failure mode on a thermostat, but there are a lot of things I
> haven't seen (and would like too ;^)

I've seen this. Also stuck all the way open, stuck all the way closed,
and "sticky". The worst of these is stuck closed, but "sticky" was pretty
bad, too.

> Just one point here on Johns posting.  I believe the reason I have a little
> trouble accepting the premise that too high of a flow through the radiator
> would not cause overheating is this:
> If I shut off the flow of hot water *to* the radiator, that water trapped
> in the radiator should cool (if allowed, down to ambient.)  Granted,
> the water trapped in the engine is now getting hotter.  If we relase a
> 'spurt' of cooler water into the engine, displacing an equal volume of
> hot water, then close the thermostat, this cooler water now begins to
> absorb heat energy while the 'spurt' that went to the radiator is cooling.
> Now, which one is more efficient?  Remember, the coolant in the block
> recirculates until it has absorbed enough heat to open the thermostat --
> the radiator does not have this luxury of being able to hold coolant until
> it's at a low enough temperature to send back to the engine...

Efficiency has very little to do with it - what you want is effectiveness.
Why do I say this? Well, for instance, lots of chemical and thermodynamic
reactions occur with greatest efficiency at low temperatures, but with
greatest rate of reaction at high temperatures. If you need to do bulk
heat transfer, the effective conditions are usually better than the efficient
conditions. In particular, an automotive radiator operates by convective
and radiative heat transfer from its surface to the surrounding air flow.
Convective and radiative heat transfer are proportional to the temperature
difference. This means that a hot radiator radiates more heat than a cool
radiator. If the radiator radiates more heat, then more heat is removed
from the coolant. Any heat removed from the coolant comes from one place:
the engine.

> Efficiency of the radiator I would guess (and that word will probably kill
> my argument ;^) is determined by how "fast" it can get rid of the heat.
> If I reduce the airflow through the radiator, it will not be able to get
> rid of its heat.  By decreasing the flow through radiator, I have effectively
> increased its efficiency by keeping the coolant in the radiator longer.

By allowing the coolant to reach a lower temperature, you have arguably
increased the efficiency of the radiator. However, the effectiveness is
greatly reduced by operating it at a lower temperature.


> Of course this assumes that the radiator has the capacity to cool the engine
> when used properly.  With that *same* amount of airflow through the radiator,
> but the flow rate of the coolant increased, wouldn't the coolant not have
> enough time to get rid of the heat?

There is plenty of time - the coolant is in constant contact with the
radiator - there is all the time in the world. The radiator metal in
contact with the coolant will not stop removing heat from the coolant
until it reaches the same temperature as the coolant in contact with it.

> I believe the thermostat controls that
> flow rate of coolant through the radiator..

Not really. It's sort of a lumpy limit switch. The combination of
coolant pump pressure, thermostat opening, and fluid flow resistance of
the cooling system in general determine the flow rate.

> Having written the above and reading it over, I thought I'd give the people
> at "Custom Auto Radiator" (a company that designs and builds custom made
> radiators for antiques, hotrods and restored automobiles) a call and ask to
> speak to their engineer.  I told him about the problem I'm seeing, and
> expecting him to try to sell me a new radiator ;^) his first response was
> that the flow through the radiator is too high!  He made several suggestions
> as to the fixes that could be done.

I have a suggestion for what to do with this "advice". And a suggestion
regarding where NOT to get a custom radiator designed...


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@hpwarq.hp.com

----------
Posted by: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 15:58:49 1992
Subject: Re: Radiator testing
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> In article  hotrod%dixie.com@mathcs.emory.edu writes:
> It's not a matter of disbelieving John
> categorically, Damon, it's from trying to resolve a problem that I have
> with an engine that is overheating at times, and not coming up to
> temperature at other times. I believe it to be caused by by either a
> *strangely* defective thermostat, or no thermostat at all.

Don't forget the other parts of this system - coolant galleys and
coolant pump. 

> What throws me about my overheating problem, is that on a cool evening,
> I can drive the car several miles (about 15-20 minutes) to our favorite
> cruise spot, and the engine temperature will just barely rises off the
> left peg of the meter, this would be impossible if the engine had a
> thermostat.

I think that you are probably right about that...

> On the other hand, I can also make the engine overheat with
> a different set of circumstances -- such as driving at 50 M.P.H. for about
> 10 or 15 minutes.

This could be a combination of a stuck thermostat and a weak water pump.

> This seems like a paradoxical situation according to
> you -- you're telling me that if I take out my thermostat, the engine won't
> run over 100 degrees no matter what, and yet, I have an overheating problem.

Provided you are getting good coolant circulation, including a good flow rate
through the radiator, a thermostat that is stuck open can't cause more of
an overheat than you already have with a good thermostat.

> If my thermostat has a failure mode of sticking in one position, stuck open,
> but not all the way, I would probably get the same results.  I don't think
> I've seen this failure mode on a thermostat, but there are a lot of things I
> haven't seen (and would like too ;^)

I've seen this. Also stuck all the way open, stuck all the way closed,
and "sticky". The worst of these is stuck closed, but "sticky" was pretty
bad, too.

> Just one point here on Johns posting.  I believe the reason I have a little
> trouble accepting the premise that too high of a flow through the radiator
> would not cause overheating is this:
> If I shut off the flow of hot water *to* the radiator, that water trapped
> in the radiator should cool (if allowed, down to ambient.)  Granted,
> the water trapped in the engine is now getting hotter.  If we relase a
> 'spurt' of cooler water into the engine, displacing an equal volume of
> hot water, then close the thermostat, this cooler water now begins to
> absorb heat energy while the 'spurt' that went to the radiator is cooling.
> Now, which one is more efficient?  Remember, the coolant in the block
> recirculates until it has absorbed enough heat to open the thermostat --
> the radiator does not have this luxury of being able to hold coolant until
> it's at a low enough temperature to send back to the engine...

Efficiency has very little to do with it - what you want is effectiveness.
Why do I say this? Well, for instance, lots of chemical and thermodynamic
reactions occur with greatest efficiency at low temperatures, but with
greatest rate of reaction at high temperatures. If you need to do bulk
heat transfer, the effective conditions are usually better than the efficient
conditions. In particular, an automotive radiator operates by convective
and radiative heat transfer from its surface to the surrounding air flow.
Convective and radiative heat transfer are proportional to the temperature
difference. This means that a hot radiator radiates more heat than a cool
radiator. If the radiator radiates more heat, then more heat is removed
from the coolant. Any heat removed from the coolant comes from one place:
the engine.

> Efficiency of the radiator I would guess (and that word will probably kill
> my argument ;^) is determined by how "fast" it can get rid of the heat.
> If I reduce the airflow through the radiator, it will not be able to get
> rid of its heat.  By decreasing the flow through radiator, I have effectively
> increased its efficiency by keeping the coolant in the radiator longer.

By allowing the coolant to reach a lower temperature, you have arguably
increased the efficiency of the radiator. However, the effectiveness is
greatly reduced by operating it at a lower temperature.


> Of course this assumes that the radiator has the capacity to cool the engine
> when used properly.  With that *same* amount of airflow through the radiator,
> but the flow rate of the coolant increased, wouldn't the coolant not have
> enough time to get rid of the heat?

There is plenty of time - the coolant is in constant contact with the
radiator - there is all the time in the world. The radiator metal in
contact with the coolant will not stop removing heat from the coolant
until it reaches the same temperature as the coolant in contact with it.

> I believe the thermostat controls that
> flow rate of coolant through the radiator..

Not really. It's sort of a lumpy limit switch. The combination of
coolant pump pressure, thermostat opening, and fluid flow resistance of
the cooling system in general determine the flow rate.

> Having written the above and reading it over, I thought I'd give the people
> at "Custom Auto Radiator" (a company that designs and builds custom made
> radiators for antiques, hotrods and restored automobiles) a call and ask to
> speak to their engineer.  I told him about the problem I'm seeing, and
> expecting him to try to sell me a new radiator ;^) his first response was
> that the flow through the radiator is too high!  He made several suggestions
> as to the fixes that could be done.

I have a suggestion for what to do with this "advice". And a suggestion
regarding where NOT to get a custom radiator designed...


-- 
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@hpwarq.hp.com

----------
Posted by: lupienj@hpwarq.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 22:18:21 1992
Subject: Re: carb question
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>I currently have a holley 600 cfm universal sitting on my edelbrock performer
>intake manifold, which is all in a plymouth duster with a 360, which is just
>slightly over stock for 360's. But i have been having problems with my holley
>since the start and am looking to replace it with something a little more
>reliable with out sacraficing to much power. 
>	I have been told that Edelbrocks are good reliable carbs, but they
>do not give the same performance as a holley, and I was considering maybe
>going with a carter too, but have not made up my mind yet. I want to stay
>around the 600 cfm, vacumn assist(or maybe even mechanical) secondaries,
>with an electric choke, as it is a daily driver. But i was wondering others
>opinions on the quality and performance of Edelbrocks vs Carters or possible
>even another holley, with a trick kit and all, any ideas or thoughts are 
>welcomed.
>thanks
>
>----------
>Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu
--
What about a Predator carb?  Anyone out there have opinions on this carb?
I'm considering getting a couple for a Pontiac 455.

Robert Bryce
brycerw@brandonu.ca
$brycerw@brandonu.ca

----------
Posted by: $BRYCERW@BrandonU.CA
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 00:14:23 1992
Subject: Mustang rear end swap
To: hotrod@dixie.com


  Recently it has been suggested to me that a Lincoln Mark VII 
  LSC rear end can be swapped onto a late model mustang,
  providing a 8.8" traction-loc rear, 3.27 gears, rear
  disc brakes and 5-bolt rotors all in one fell swoop.

  My project car is a '79 Mustang 5.0 sleeper.  I was
  anticpating putting in a new rear end and rear discs,
  and need new wheels anyways, so this would be the perfect
  setup for me.

   Has anyone seen this done?  Does anyone know how much of a
   problem it is, other than brake lines and e-brake cables?
   Does anyone know of a swap kit (like Kauffman sells the 
   big-block bolt in kits with all the hardware you need)?

   Any comments, suggestions or rumors are welcomed at
   jkurien@rdrc.rpi.edu

  Thanks,
    Jim K.

----------
Posted by: jkurien@rdrc.rpi.edu (James Kurien)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 01:12:24 1992
Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> You could be bogging due to several things (less than comprehensive list).
>Especially at low RPM, being over-carb'ed is a common problem. Insufficient
>flow gives lousy metering. The accelerator pump is supposed to correct this
>but may take a fair bit of messing to get right. There is an "experimenter's
>fun kit" of accelerator pump cams from Holley that contains about 10 different
>profiles. Trouble is (and therefore I haven't even opened the one I bought)
>there seems to be no helpful info on how to determine beforehand which one
>might be the best for a particular behavior. It looks like you just have to
>run through them and decide on the best using the ole whiplash gauge.

Or you can be a bit more scientific :-)  A little background.  Transient
throttle bogging is caused by instantaneous leanness.  This leanness has
three causes.  A) lack of vacuum signal at the metering jets, B) inertia
in the fuel column, and C) fuel being diverted from atomization to 
rewetting the manifold walls after high vacuum dries them.  Funny how
port fuel injection addresses all these problems in one fell swoop :-)

The accelerator pump is a tag-on device that is designed to cover all
these deficiencies.    It does a passing job when properly tuned.  Ideally
the pump would supply a very large shot of fuel that would wet the 
walls and cover the burst of air that fills the manifold vacuum and then
supply a smaller sustaining flow until flow is established on the main 
jets.  Unfortunately, the holly pump can only approximate  this behavior.
If you're getting the idea I don't like carbs, you'd be close.

The holly pump's delivery is governed mainly by two variables - the
nozzle orfice size and the pump spring. Contrary to popular belief, the pump 
cam has little effect on injection rate.  Consider what happens when you
stab the throttle.  The primaries open immediately, forcing the cam to push
the actuation lever fully down.  Gas, being incompressible, resists 
compression and so there is a spring in the pump actuation train.  This 
spring is compressed and then exerts a relatively constant pressure on
the pump diaphram during the injection stroke.  The flow is regulated by
the orfice size.  The injection duration varies according to the spring 
pressure, the pump capacity and the orifce size.  What the cam does do is
regulate what proportion of the pump capacity is injected for small throttle
openings.  In practice, I've seen little difference between all those cams
in the kit.  Perhaps if I were UNDER carburatored, finer regulation would
be needed.  As it is, I generally just leave the stock cam on and tune on
other areas.

Spring pressure is not easily tunable since Holly does not generally offer
a range of springs.  I have made my own springs but that's not a common
capability.  The two tunable parameters are pump capacity and discharge
orfice size.  In pump capacity, you have a choice of 10 cc and 50 CC for 
common aftermarket carbs. Generally if you're overcarburated, you'll
need the 50 cc pump.

>From there, the orfice size is the tuning parameter.  There are two 
conflicting requirements due to the fixed pump volume.  One requirement is
to supply enough fuel to cover the initial air surge and the wetting 
requirement.  The other requirement is to supply fuel long enough to allow
the mainjets to begin to flow fully.  This can be a surprisingly long
interval.  

Tuning consists of installing a large enough orfice to cover the initial
bog.  Then if there is a flat spot a second or so after punching the 
throttle, either the pump capacity must be increased or a smaller orfice 
must be used in order to stretch the injection interval.  It may be 
necessary to go just a bit rich on the main jets in order to help
cover the leanness caused by injecting at a slower rate than needed.

You can try to do this by the seat of the pants but a much better way is
to actually observe the operation of the carb while underway.  Now I
have strapped myself on top of an engine and had a friend drive the car
while I peered down the carb throat.  Not recommended!  A much more 
practical technique is to mount a small video camera over the carb
inlet and video the operation.  Much easier on the eye when the damn
thing spits back.  What you want to observe is the duration of the 
squirt vs when the main jets start discharging.  There should be some
overlap.  If the squirt ends before the mains start flowing, you'll
get a delayed bog.

> I have been working against the same sort of behavior on my car, which is
>probably a worst-case example of sorts - a 231 V-6 with a 750CFM Holley.

About as bad as you can get. :-)  That's about twice the carburator that
engine needs.  Look at the math.  At 6000 rpm, this engine does 3000 
intake strokes per minute.  3000 X 231 cu in = 693,000 cu in/min or
401 cu ft per min.  That, of course, assumes 100 volumetric efficiency
which is not the case.   A small 390 CFM carb would make that engine
run very good.

>in the picture when it's opened up at low speed. A vacuum gauge is nice; 
>I put one in the dash and at half pedal at low speed it drops right down to 
>0; that there is one indication that you are overcarbed. 

Yup

> Another thought - if you have solid secondaries try disabling them. Double
>pumpers are popular but a bit impractical off the track; they require more
>attention to the pedal because they only do what they are told. If it's a
>vacuum secondary, also try disabling the secondaries just for yucks; if the
>bog goes away then you might want to try out different springs in the
>actuator biscuit to hold off opening. The enabling linkage can also be
>bent to change the opening allowed.

Mechanical secondaries are another scourge that needs to be stomped out (kinda
like the coolant rumor.)  I can't imagine any situation short of Daytona,
where the throttle is bolted open for many minutes at a time, where 
mechanical secondaries are appropriate.  Even in drag racing, all 
too much throttle gives you is a big bog.  Vacuum secondaries are
so smooth and work so well, they are probably too complicated for the
average hotrod mag writer to understand :-)


> Anybody familiar with nitrous systems? I know this guy who used to be into
>the street racing scene but has given it up. He sez he has a bunch of stuff
>left over in his garage, among which is a NOS nitrous system. He says he'll
>take $150 for it 

Probably a pretty good price.  About 20 cents  on the dollar.

>Second, the nitrous systems seem to have been evolving a bit
>and I'm not sure the how the more primitive ( ca. 1980 ) setups stack up to
>the current state of the art; 

There's not been much in the way of advancement for simple single stage
units often seen on the street.  You can get electronically controlled
proportional systems but they involve $$$.  Some improvement had been
seen in injection nozzle design but nozzles are relatively cheap.
Besides, you'll probably be using a small, under the carburator
injection system.  

I've been on both sides of the equation. I've used nitrous with my
turbocharged Z engines and I've sold it from my welding gas supply warehouse.
Nitrous is wonderful but habit forming and will really punish indiscretion.
If you turn up the horsepower screws, you can go up to the breaking point
without even trying.   Fastest way I know to acquiring a piston kit (you
know, sweep all the pieces up off the track, glue 'em back together and 
you have pistons.) The second problem is the kick in the pants is so
much fun that you'll get to be on a first name basis with your nitrous
supplier.  I know, I had several junkies tethered on my string :-)

If you're really interested in Nitrous, get the book "Nitrous Oxide 
Injection" by David Vizard.  ISBN 0-931472-16-4.  Publisher SA Designs.
I got mine from the local book emporium a few years ago.  Lots of good
poop.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)
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From HOTROD@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 01:29:42 1992
Subject: Answers and more questions...
To: hotrod@dixie.com

1.     Is it just me or do the Edelbrock and Carter carbs look exactly alike?
       Has anyone actually seen any differences?  BTW, the Carters seem
       just fine on Hemis and 409 Chevys...

2.     The LSC rear into the Mustang come up regularly on the Mustangs mailing list.   I've heard that different offset wheels are needed, and that the 
       quad shocks (if you have them) don't have a bracket on the new rear.
       This is said to be a more cost effective solution than just adding the
       gears to the regular 'Stang rear, but I've never done either.

3.     Now my question.  Has anyone out there experimented with tuning
       tricks on the new FI Mustangs?  I mean no $$ tricks, like timing,
       "fooling" the sensors, etc.



Thanks, and good luck with all your projects.


Ed Mulligan
Sr. E.E. at Bucknell Univ.
mulligan@coral.bucknell.edu
FORD=First On Race Day

----------
Posted by: MULLIGAN@coral.bucknell.edu
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 03:18:04 1992
Subject: Re:  Ohhh! Shelby Cobra
To: hotrod@dixie.com


 >>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 92 14:18 EST
 >>Subject: Ohhh! Shelby Cobra
 >>From: ncar.UCAR.EDU!gatech!emory!dixie.com!hotrod@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (The Hotrod List)
 >>To: hotrod@dixie.com
 >>
 [...]
 >>Well I walked in this place and what did I find but a pristine 
 >>Shelby Cobra 455.  No kit car this, it's a genuwine original.  He 
 [...]
 >>Report to follow.
 >>John

 Since I am *anxiously* awaiting the "report to follow" I thought I
 would get a little bit of Cobra background.  I am not too boned up
 on 'em.  What is a 455 Cobra?  I am familiar with the 427 and 289
 versions.  I have seen/heard the 427 version referred to just that
 way... a 427 Cobra.  Did Ford actually make such an engine as a
 455??

 >>
 >>I cannot find a reason for blank messages.  I've spent over an hour
 >>

 For what it is worth John, I have not received any blank messages.

 BTW, Thanks! for the thorough explanation of dP and dT testing of
 the radiator.  VERY interesting.

 While I'm at it, Phil, thank you too for the progressive linkage
 info.  I am eager to hear how it helps your mileage.

 Okay, I'm done.  :^)

 P.S. Oh, John,  I have a video camera that would love to ride
	  in a Cobra, but it is kinda touchy about who holds it.
	  How many people can fit in a Cobra 455?  ;^)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Don Robinson    (602) 752-6466                |  We don't quit playing because
 Internet:     vlsiphx!donr@asuvax.eas.asu.edu |  we grow old...   We grow old
 UUCP:         ...uunet!asuvax!vlsiphx!donr    |  because we quit playing.

----------
Posted by: emory!gatech!ncar.UCAR.EDU!asuvax!vlsiphx!enforcer!donr (Don Robinson)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 06:21:11 1992
Subject: Re:  Ohhh! Shelby Cobra
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> >>Well I walked in this place and what did I find but a pristine 
> >>Shelby Cobra 455.  No kit car this, it's a genuwine original.  He 
> [...]
> >>Report to follow.
> >>John
>
> Since I am *anxiously* awaiting the "report to follow" I thought I
> would get a little bit of Cobra background.  I am not too boned up
> on 'em.  What is a 455 Cobra?  

My fuckup (I am allowed to use that word on this list, aren't I? :-)
It is a 427.  Too many subjects on the mind at once.  

Rain and our schedules have forced me to postpone the joyride until
sometime this week.  I'm trying to round up a video camera so I
can record the salient details.  Maybe I could be persuaded to dup
it for a small fee :-)


> For what it is worth John, I have not received any blank messages.

Good.  

> BTW, Thanks! for the thorough explanation of dP and dT testing of
> the radiator.  VERY interesting.

Thanks.

> While I'm at it, Phil, thank you too for the progressive linkage
> info.  I am eager to hear how it helps your mileage.

Yep.  I enjoyed that too.  A perfect application for something I was 
not aware existed.

> P.S. Oh, John,  I have a video camera that would love to ride
>	  in a Cobra, but it is kinda touchy about who holds it.
>	  How many people can fit in a Cobra 455?  ;^)

Well I'm kinda big...  :-)  I WOULD love to have your camera here.  I've
never gotten around to buying one of the devices.  Actually what I really
want to film are the details of construction and design for when I 
build my Cobra kitcar.

John


----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 17:46:17 1992
Subject: aluminum cylinder heads worth the money?
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Recently I have seen a number of aluminum heads become available for my
429 ford motor. My question is are they that much better than just working
over the stock ones to justify the cost?  Will they be anywhere near as
durable as the iron ones? I mean could I expect to put them on a primarily
street machine and expect to keep them for a while?

thanks 
eric.

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 18:12:08 1992
Subject: Fiat Mods
To: hotrod@dixie.com


My project car is a 1979 Fiat Spyder 2000.  I am in the middle of an engine and
transmission rebuild (for performance)  right now.  Given my current rate of 
progress, I should be done in about May (just in time for the sunshine!)  
I have a question about cam selection.

My setup:

9.8:1 pistons (no overbore)
dual 40IDF Webers w/28mm chokes.  (This choke size is what they came with.  Any
   comments?  I noticed my Weber book suggests a 30mm choke for 500cc cylinders
   and 6000 rpm hp peek, but I want the car to run well and produce good torque
   at lower engine speeds (2500 - 5000 rpm).
No headers.  I understand that I can not buy headers tuned to this engine.  The
   cast manifold looks to be of pretty good quality, (4-2-1 design with about 36"
   of tubing out of the manifold to the collector)

The car will be used for summer pleasure driving and some autocross.  It doesn't
need miraculous top speed, but great acceleration is desirable.

The question:
   Besides the request for comments on the carburetors, I have one big question.
   I have purchased all of the engine parts but the cams.  I have read a number
   of books on engine design, and have looked through the Bayless catalog.  The
   best bet looks like their "11mm lift 40.80 80.40 300 deg. cam" (or 305 deg. 
   I can't remember which) cam which they describe as a "good performance and 
   touring cam".  These are *very* expensive steel camshafts.  Does anybody out 
   there have any experience with these cams or other Fiat 2.0L cams?  Any good
   advice on cam selection in general?

This newsgroup should be great!  I hope to hear from other people doing performance
mods to the less expensive european cars.  If any of you are looking into
getting started with a project car, let me suggest the Fiat Spyder.  Nice to look
at (turns heads with the top down), handles great, and very easy to work on.

Thanks in advance for the help!
paul







----------
Posted by: pstoaks@ic.MENTORG.COM (Paul Stoaks)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 18:15:06 1992
Subject: Re: Blank Mail
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>> --
>I haven't gotten any blank messages but I don't seem to be able to 
>get one across!  Will someone lemme know if you see this?
>
>Dwight Brantley
>brantley@falab1!b21.ingr.com
>
>----------
>Posted by: brantley@infonode.ingr.com (Dwight D. Brantley)
>--

Looks like like it made it alright! 
Sorry to go about this in this way but all of my correspondence to the proper
paths did not get a response.  I need to change to another system to receive
the hotrod list as this one is very slow and is lacking sufficient disc
space to work with.  John, if you read this, please reply via e-mail.

Thanks,

Dwight Brantley
brantley@falab1!b21.ingr.com

----------
Posted by: brantley@infonode.ingr.com (Dwight D. Brantley)
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 18:18:04 1992
Subject: Re: Which should be faster? 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>    I plan on having several races this summer with other local hotrodders and
>have been gearing up my car to meet the challenges.  Over the winter another
>"project" of a local cruiser was finished and I was wondering what my chances
>of winning this car in a drag is.  The following is a description of the
>two cars:

>Mine: 1969 GTX 440
>------------------

>His: 1984 Monte Carlo 350 with B&M 4-71 blower
>----------------------------------------------

Why not take it to the track and find out? I hope thats where you plan
to have these summer challenges 8')
>From the sound of it they sound like a fairly close match. Depends on
how much boost your friend runs on his blower as to the chance that he
has to blow your doors off. 
  _________________________________   _____________________________________
 /         _______________         \ /  OLD CHEVYS NEVER DIE, THEY JUST GO \
|        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |     |             F A S T E R !!            |
|      / /_________________\ \|     |   OLD JAPANESE CARS NEVER DIE, THEY   |
|  -------------------------------  |       JUST TURN INTO BEER CANS!!      |
|  / O O O -----Chevy----- O O O \  |_______________________________________|
| (_______________________________) | MARK JENSEN           (503) 627-3115  |
| (_______________________________) | TEKTRONIX METROLOGY LAB.              |
|  |\ _________________________ /|  | BEAVERTON, OREGON        MS. 39-732   | 
|  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |  |        markj@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM       |
 \_|______|_______________|______|_/ \_____________________________________/

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Mon Feb 24 18:20:32 1992
Subject: carb question
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I currently have a holley 600 cfm universal sitting on my edelbrock performer
intake manifold, which is all in a plymouth duster with a 360, which is just
slightly over stock for 360's. But i have been having problems with my holley
since the start and am looking to replace it with something a little more
reliable with out sacraficing to much power. 
	I have been told that Edelbrocks are good reliable carbs, but they
do not give the same performance as a holley, and I was considering maybe
going with a carter too, but have not made up my mind yet. I want to stay
around the 600 cfm, vacumn assist(or maybe even mechanical) secondaries,
with an electric choke, as it is a daily driver. But i was wondering others
opinions on the quality and performance of Edelbrocks vs Carters or possible
even another holley, with a trick kit and all, any ideas or thoughts are 
welcomed.
thanks

----------
Posted by: ZA061@zeus.unomaha.edu
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From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 17:02:51 1992
Subject: Re: Legality of Modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> First off, the CAA, along with an EPA ruling now specifically DOES allow
> putting later model engines in earlier vehicles of the **same type.**

	Certainly an improvement, but still not good enough.  I am going
to be working on a Datsun 510 this summer that currently has a very 
illegal street ported Mazda 13B with a 48mm DeLorto.  The setup is good
for about 200hp, and 9mpg(!)  Since the tabs run out in November, and
there is no way this engine can pass an emissions test (no underhood
inspection YET in Seattle, where the car lives) we are going to 
put in a complete engine from an RX-7 turbo 2.  Fuel injection, turbo, 
intercooler, catalytic converters and all.  Good for about 260 hp with 
the HKS wastegate cranked up, and about 20mpg with it turned down.  Also
it will be far far cleaner than any '71 510 as it came of the showroom!
But since it is a Mazda engine going into a Nissan car, it is illegal.
	What should decide legality is the snif test.  If you can put
10,000hp into a 1500lb car, that's fine, as long as it doesn't pollute any
more then it did when it was new.
	My 2 cents...

	-Dave

----------
Posted by: Datsun Dave Coleman 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 17:04:50 1992
Subject: engine modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Last year I acquired a 65 Chevy Sport Coupe with a stock 327/250hp
engine and Powerglide.  Unfortunately there are two cylinders, #7 and 8
that are low on compression, I think due to bad valves.  When I get a
valve job I'm planning on having hardened valve seats installed, and I
was wondering what other things could be done to improve the horsepower.
I want the most bang for my buck, and am interested in suggestions -
different cam, manifold, carb, headers, electronic ignition, etc.  I
would like to go to 300hp and would appreciate a prioritized list so I
can add improvements as $$ allow.  Thanks for any help.
-- 
 -Dean 		dean@MorningStar.Com

----------
Posted by: Dean Schell 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 17:11:13 1992
Subject: overheating
To: hotrod@dixie.com


Nine out of ten times an overheating problem can be cured with a new
radiator cap (one that doesn't leak pressure or one with a higher pressure
rating)

The pressure really raises the boiling point of the coolant and keeps
cavitation to a minimum. 

If I'm not wrong, don't most race cars try to run at 220-240 degress F


One thing I know for certain ... the radiator will be clearly more efficient
at dissipating the heat energy to the outside air from 220 degree coolant
than 180 degree coolant (laws of thermodynamics)   

Why would someone want to run a horsepower hungry high velocity water pump
when all they need to do is run slightly higher pressure cap ? 

----------
Posted by: hiss@fionn.lbl.gov (Eric Hiss)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 17:13:51 1992
Subject: Re:  engine modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

why dont you replace the powerglide with a th350.  that will give
better performance and once you have the engine out, will be very
easy to replace.  a rebuilt th350 costs only $200 max from a boneyard.

----------
Posted by: Dan Stanger 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 17:14:15 1992
Subject: Re: Yet even more Radiator testing
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Have you verifyed that the radiator is not so encrusted
with scale that it cannot flow?  How about the inside of the
engine?

--

Buz...                                #00076
Rob Armitage  Carnegie Mellon University   Pittsburgh, PA
ra1d+@andrew.cmu.edu  or:..!{ucbvax,harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!ra1d+
"Illiterate?  Write for free help."

----------
Posted by: "Robert L. Armitage" 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 17:19:39 1992
Subject: Cooling
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I guess I joined too late to get in on the great radiator debate.
I have a cooling problem also. The car is a 454 Chevelle. Hot rodded
of course. The radiator is a three row chevelle unit that was stock
with a 396.
The first thing that I discovered was that my temp guage was lying
to me. Too hot by approx 20 deg.
I inserted a digital thermocouple into the upper radiator hose and
took a reading. 180deg. Next I placed it in the bottom hose and meas
160deg. 20deg drop across the radiator, at idle, on a 50 deg day. The
thermostat is a 160deg unit. In other words, the car will not run at 
the thermostat temp. The problem gets worse on the highway. If I pull
a hill at 60mph (3000rpm) the temp will rise to 200deg.
Here is what I tried. I took the thermostat out. The only thing this
changed was the warm up time. Not good for the engine! The end resulting
temp was the same.
The fan BTW is the stock 4 blade unit. There is a shroud.
The plan.   1. Get a four core radiator.
            2. Get a 7 blade clutch fan
            3. Get a new temp gauge
My conclusions:
            1. The three core radiator is too small. Summer will kill!
            
Well I guess that is only one conclusion. I do have a couple of
questions. 
What is the proper temp drop across the radiator?
How is this affected by ambient?
At what road speed does the fan quit aiding a significant amount of
the airflow?
Where on (in) the engine is the best place to meas coolant temp or
is it uniform throughout?

Maybe I should get a small block!   Naaahhhhhh

Ron Selberg

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 22:38:27 1992
Subject: Re: General Ramblings
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>about .2 in qm. Also tried to remove the silencer in the air box. (supposed
>to be worth a bunch) Car made more noise but didn't go any faster. Possibly
>the Block Learns in the fuel injection didn't compensate sufficiently. 
...
>unhook battery to reset FI. 

I suspect that resetting the learned information in the FI controller will
be vital to make significant changes like the air box mods work properly.
Probably something to try.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From jgd@dixie.com Tue Feb 25 22:51:27 1992
Subject: Re: tranny / gear oil

emory!bmw320.enet.dec.com!bernstein writes:


>For the tranny, I would consider using Castrol AT fluid.  I know that
>sounds weird, but BMW sent out a bulletin to its dealers explaining that
>the AT fluid provides for easier shifting in the winter-time.  

Damn, my secret's out!  I've been using Dextron-type ATF in transmissions
and rear ends for years with excellent results.  I add a tube of 
extreme pressure additive to the rear end, probably more out of worry
than anything else.  I love the way it makes a stick shift.

>As far as removing the 17mm hex plugs on the tranny, the filler plug is
>somewhat deceptive.  You need to purchase a special tool from the dealer,
>or from Snap-On Tools (it's called, of all things, a VW transaxle wrench).
>This is way too expensive.  I simply purchased a 17-mm allen-key for less
>than $10, and had a machine shop chop off about 1" of it.  


Or an alternative is to get a 10 mm grade 8 bolt (17 mm head) and 
weld a short tee handle onto the thread end.  Total cost - oh, maybe 50 cents.
I have a variety of such wrenches in my box.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC        | "I'm a lawyer but I guess I'm also human." 
Rapid Deployment System, Inc. |             Ian Zimmerman. 
Marietta, Ga                  |      Lawyer for the purse snatcher
jgd@dixie.com                 |   scum who sued the taxi driver in 'Frisco.


From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 02:47:15 1992
Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

'you wrote'
> 
> in the fuel column, and C) fuel being diverted from atomization to 
> rewetting the manifold walls after high vacuum dries them.  

Now, I am curious as to this wetting phenomenon. I have long
since conquered it myself, but how is a highly volatile liquid
like gasoline supposed to wet the several hundred degree walls 
of the manifold, and to what end? 

Does this serve as a 'fuel capacitor' of sorts, storing small amounts 
of fuel until they are whisked away by air?


bote@access.digex.com (John Boteler)
NCN NudesLine => 703.241.BARE  Club updates, events, and info

----------
Posted by: John Boteler 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 02:47:21 1992
Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

'you wrote'
>  According to the Holley book, the power valve has two components to its
> behavior. The valves are sold by the crack vacuum pressure (inHg) as has
> been mantioned. The flow however, which really determines the amount as
> opposed to the point of enrichment, is determined by "power valve channel
> restrictors". These are apparently separate from the valve itself and not
> as easy to change or to get; 

I found an easy way to REALLY increase the flow from the power valve:
use the wrong gasket. I put on the metering body-to-main body gasket
with the large, semi-circular opening above the power valve cutout
and boy did gas pour out of the throttle body! No good for idling,
starting, or anything below 6000 RPM though. It's too bad the
renew kit instructions discuss this, but give misleading info
as to which gasket to use. They rely on ambiguous text to tell you 
what should have been a graphic.

> If it's a
> vacuum secondary, also try disabling the secondaries just for yucks; if the
> bog goes away then you might want to try out different springs in the
> actuator biscuit to hold off opening.

Holley is actually very conservative about this. The spring
kit strongly urges you to start with the stiffest secondary
spring, then work your way towards lighter springs. They
have already encountered folks who try to max the thing
out immediately, then complain about bogging.

I put the black (stiffest) spring in mine and haven't driven
anywhere near enough to tell yet, but so far it seems fine
for around town street use. I am certain your mileage will vary.


bote@access.digex.com (John Boteler)
NCN NudesLine => 703.241.BARE  Club updates, events, and info

----------
Posted by: John Boteler 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 03:39:13 1992
Subject: Re: wetting manifold walls
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>> in the fuel column, and C) fuel being diverted from atomization to 
>> rewetting the manifold walls after high vacuum dries them.  
>
>Now, I am curious as to this wetting phenomenon. I have long
>since conquered it myself, but how is a highly volatile liquid
>like gasoline supposed to wet the several hundred degree walls 
>of the manifold, and to what end? 
>
>Does this serve as a 'fuel capacitor' of sorts, storing small amounts 
>of fuel until they are whisked away by air?

Precisely.  And the capacitor discharges and recharges at precisely
the wrong time.  The walls evaporate their load of fuel when the 
throttle is closed, contributing to emissions, and reload during
power operation, causing transient lean conditions.  This is one
of the major reasons OEMs  have flocked to port fuel injection in
recent years even for non-performance vehicles.  Remember the emission
qualification process involves collecting all the exhaust emitted during
a programmed dyno run and then analyzing samples of this mix.  
The OEM has X grams per mile of each pollutant.  If he uses up a 
significant fraction of X during coastdown, he has less margin for
acceleration, cold starting and the like.  This process is also why
you see soot from most new cars under WOT acceleration.  The engine
can be dirty during this phase if idle and slow speed operation is clean.

The wetting occurs via two mechanisms.  First is the direct squirt of 
heavy droplets/stream of gas from the mainjets and accelerator pump.
This gets the area under the carb and the bottom of the runners for
a distance.  The other mechanism is aerosol deposition.  That is,
atomized droplets of fuel impinge and stick to the walls of the manifold
just like an aerosol spray does.  A secular equilibrium establishes 
itself at a given throttle setting whereby evaporation and deposition 
are balanced.  You can observe this mechanism by heating a piece of 
metal to just below the boiling point of water and then spraying it with
a fine mist of water.  As the surface heat is drawn out by the evaporation,
the diameter of the spot of wetness expands until a balance is reached.
(assumes a constant input of heat to the metal.)

An interesting experiment is to mount a carb on a manifold and then
blow air through it in the normal direction and observe the mist/spray
emitting from the manifold.  I once made a smelting furnace to recover
lead from batteries that was fired by gasoline.  It used a small
hair-dryer type blower, a 30 mm motorcycle carburator and a metal tube
that extended to the bottom of a firebrick chimney.  The idea was to
pile the batteries in along with charcoal and lime, fire the puppy up
and use the hot gasoline/air flame to melt the whole mix.  The first
attempt was pretty sloppy.  Great globs of unevaporated fuel slathering
out the tube and making large red flames.  I finally welded up a "U" tube
such that the flame impinged on it.  This "u" served as the vaporizer.
This kluge then burned with a nice blue flame and I smelted a large 
number of batteries.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 10:47:09 1992
Subject: Re: 327 engine modifications 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Edelbrock performer cam, lifters, manifold and carb plus small tube
>headers will do the 300 horsepower and is goof proof. 2.25 or 2.50
>exhaust system a must.

>Ron
>Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com

Another good combo that I have used is Crane's 327/350hp blue printed
cam, Rhodes lifters, Edelbrock performer manifold, TRW flat tops, mild
head port clean up, and of course headers into duel exhaust.
Crane has come out with a better cam to replace the blue printed cam.
HRM reviewed it a while back with good results. I understood it to be
just a modern version of an already great design. Unfortunatly I don't
recall its part number. The 250hp 327 being talked about may be weak on
the bottom end if you intend on spinning it hard. I would suggest a stud
kit and a good set of SPS rod bolts for added strength and piece of
mind. BTW, I ran a 625 Carter on my combo with very good results.

Mark Jensen
PS. Great news group! sure is nice not having to flip through all the
bull shit that clutters rec.auto(.tech)!!!!


----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 10:47:42 1992
Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 92 01:53 EST
> Subject: Re: Holleys, mostly, and a couple of Qs
> 
> 'you wrote'
> > If it's a
> > vacuum secondary, also try disabling the secondaries just for yucks; if the
> > bog goes away then you might want to try out different springs in the
> > actuator biscuit to hold off opening.
> 
> Holley is actually very conservative about this. The spring
> kit strongly urges you to start with the stiffest secondary
> spring, then work your way towards lighter springs. They
> have already encountered folks who try to max the thing
> out immediately, then complain about bogging.
> 
> I put the black (stiffest) spring in mine and haven't driven
> anywhere near enough to tell yet, but so far it seems fine
> for around town street use. I am certain your mileage will vary.

Isn't there a chart that relates the various springs to venturi or
manifold vacuum?  After the rebuild, we selected the first spring to
try on the Holley 1850 on this basis.  At about 4psi, the 'stock'
spring that came with the carburetor was way too stiff.  This step
probably eliminated half of the springs from consideration outright.
____________________________________________________________________________
          _______________
        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |			Dan Harling
   0  / /_________________\ \| 0		(harling@pictel.com)
    ---------------------------
  / /======|=D=O=D=G=E=|======\ \		Opinions expressed here
  \_____________________________/		are mine, all mine!!!
  \    _______       _______    /
  |\ _/|__|__|\_____/|__|__|\_ /|		'70 Dodge Challenger
  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |		340 4-bbl.
  |______|               |______|

----------
Posted by: harling@roadrunner.pictel.com (Dan Harling)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 13:02:54 1992
Subject: Re: engine modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Thanks for the ideas on ways to increase the performance of my '65 Chey
327.  So far the suggestions include:

Edelbrock performer cam
lifters
manifold 
carb 
small tube headers and 2.25 or 2.50 exhaust system
replace Powerglide with th350 transmission 

I have several questions.  As far as the Edelbrock cam, lifters, and
manifold -  are there model numbers of these items that I can use that
people know work well for the 327, or should I just go to Jegs and get
their recommendation?  As far as the carb, the 327 currently has a
Rochester 4Jet.  Is is necesary to replace it with an Edelbrock, and if
so what size and model should I use?  As far as the headers, does anyone
have a mfg's preference?  And finally, regarding the transmisson 
replacement - how will the th350 affect the column shifter I have with
the standard P R N D L positions (I'm assuming the th350 is a 3 speed)?
As you can tell I have no experience in this type of upgrade and am
looking forward to your advice.
-- 
 -Dean 		dean@MorningStar.Com

----------
Posted by: Dean Schell 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 15:16:43 1992
Subject: Re: 327 engine modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>>Edelbrock performer cam, lifters, manifold and carb plus small tube
>>headers will do the 300 horsepower and is goof proof. 2.25 or 2.50
>>exhaust system a must.
>
>>Ron
>>Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com
>
>Another good combo that I have used is Crane's 327/350hp blue printed
>cam, Rhodes lifters, Edelbrock performer manifold, TRW flat tops, mild
>head port clean up, and of course headers into duel exhaust.
>
>Mark Jensen

I have a 76' 350 (in a 77' Camaro) running this combo (excepting the rhodes
lifters) with a Holley 600, Hooker Comp Headers, and HEI dist.
The motor is about 5yrs. and 30Kmi. old and has not once given me a
problem.

While we're spendin' your money Ron -- I have a friend that swears by his
MSD.
Used with the recurved HEI he already had running (327, 68' Camaro) it made
a great improvement in acceleration.  I'm planning on one for my 327'
Vette.
 

>PS. Great news group! sure is nice not having to flip through all the
>bull shit that clutters rec.auto(.tech)!!!!
>
Although my mail is getting out of hand I agree with Mark 100%.

Speaking of news groups is Rec.autos.hotrod or whatever anyone can agree to
call it on its way?
Damon van Dam

----------
Posted by: dvd@eng.ufl.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 15:17:29 1992
Subject: Re: engine modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>Thanks for the ideas on ways to increase the performance of my '65 Chey
>327.  So far the suggestions include:
>
>Edelbrock performer cam
>lifters
>manifold 
>carb 
>small tube headers and 2.25 or 2.50 exhaust system
>replace Powerglide with th350 transmission 

That's pretty close to the same mods I did to my 327. I used the Crane
350/327 cam in place of the Edelbrock. I'd have to dig up the part
number, I was unsuccessful in my last attempt to find it. I'm using
a Q-jet carb that has caused me some problems in cold weather, but
when it's warm and the motor is warm this combo works pretty good. I've
been running the stock torque converter in the TH350 but it's on the
border of needing a stall converter. The nonpower drum brakes have a
hard time keeping it stopped at a light. 

>have a mfg's preference?  And finally, regarding the transmisson 
>replacement - how will the th350 affect the column shifter I have with
>the standard P R N D L positions (I'm assuming the th350 is a 3 speed)?
>As you can tell I have no experience in this type of upgrade and am
>looking forward to your advice.
>-- 
> -Dean 		dean@MorningStar.Com

When I replaced my powerglide to the TH350 I ran into acouple of snags.
As you've already figured out the shift indicator will not read right.
My floor shifter wouldn't let me shift into first gear and it also messed
up the alaignment of the neutral saftey switch. When I'm in reverse the
saftey switch thinks it's neutral and doesn't reach to park. I have to
admit I haven't staightened this mess out but I haven't drove this car
in over a year either. The correct shifter and shifter indicator plate
should take care of all my problems. I'm not sure if you'll run into the
same problems with your column shifter. If you do you can always add an
aftermarket floor shifter and replace the column with one from a manual
trans car to get rid off the original shifter.

Hope some of this helps.

   Bill Drake   -   bill@ecn.purdue.edu

   47 Ford Coupe////454/AT/3:00//// the "Fat Rat"
   69 Camaro convertible////327/AT/2:73

----------
Posted by: bill@ecn.purdue.edu



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 15:22:26 1992
Subject: Re: engine modifications 
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I would talk to JEGS. I order from them all the time and they are
very helpfull. Ask for Jon Shook. The Edelbrock parts are designed
to be compatible with each other and work well on all small blocks
327 - 400 CI. I would not use the original carb. A Q-JET is an 
excellent possibility if you are willing to find the right one and
then fiddle. For a bolt on I would use the Edelbrock performer
series. If you called Edelbrock (ph 213-781-2222) I'm sure they
would be glad to help you.  For headers that are inexpensive I
like Blackjack AK5000. They have a sprayed on aluminum spatter
coating and they don't rust...too much. If you don't like the 
color, paint them with Sperex VHT. Don't have a clue about the 
T350 swap but agree it is much better than the power-slide.
Good luck and happy hotrodding!
Ron

----------
Posted by: rons@tv.tv.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 15:36:28 1992
Subject: Re: More on Legalities
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>No, your logic is not right.  Assuming your step-dad's Caddy is fairly
>new, it's exhaust will be practically sterile at idle and part 
>throttle cruise.  I explained why this is before.   Since at cruise
>at highway speeds your MGB and the Caddy will be burning similiar amounts
>of fuel, your MGB is dirtier.  If you don't believe me on the fuel 
>arugment, simply find a modern large car with an instantaneous MPG
>meter on the pinball dash.  Look at the mileage while cruising at 
>60 mpg.  My mom's Tbird runs 50-80 mpg depending on the weather 
>and grade.   The difference in mileage between your MGB and the Caddy
>comes primarily from the fuel consumed during acceleration.  At 
>significant throttle openings, neither engine is particularly clean.
>

I'm a little skeptical about this.  If you run in the flat, say in
Texas, OK, or Iowa, and run through a full tank without stopping,
starting, accelerating or decelerating, then according to your
plan, we should get 50-80 mpg in the TBird.

My experience with my 88 Mazda 626 Turbo suggests that while
milage does peak under these conditions, it doesn't increase
over city/hwy milage by more than 30% or so.

The Tbird probably has higher wind resistance, etc, which is
the biggest contributor to friction at highway speeds and
above, so I would think (I could be wrong) that the MGB
should get potentially higher MPG.

I may be confused - does the Tbird have a turbo 4?  Even
so, I can't see it doing 50-80 mpg at 60mph.

If you mean to compare the MGB and the Caddy under identical
conditions (e.g. "ideal" driving conditions), then I suspect
the MGB should still be doing substantially better than the
Caddy (due to wind resistance, etc).

Paul Anderson
pha@hri.com
65 Belvedere 273
66 Dart GT 340 6 pack
69 Mach I 428 SCJ

----------
Posted by: pha@hri.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 18:48:10 1992
Subject: Re: Legality of Modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>> First off, the CAA, along with an EPA ruling now specifically DOES allow
>> putting later model engines in earlier vehicles of the **same type.**
>
>	Certainly an improvement, but still not good enough.  

Well the fact of the matter is that it is no longer permitted to make
uncontrolled modifications to a vehicle.  I don't think that is bad at
all.  One can make the same power but with a much cleaner emissions.
Given the anti-car sentiment arrayed against us, we ought to be happy.
The EPA COULD just flat ban non-OEM parts and quite frankly the hotrod
minority in this country would not have enough clout to stop 'em.
Remember that we've got the large new car companies against us too. 
They'd lots rather see us have to buy new cars rather than modify or
even fix up our old one.

>Also
>it will be far far cleaner than any '71 510 as it came of the showroom!
>But since it is a Mazda engine going into a Nissan car, it is illegal.

If it is as clean as a new car then you can self-certify it.  Contact
SEMA and get their package.  There is a small charge.  In return,
you'll get a practically unlimited license to modify as long as the
results are clean.

>	What should decide legality is the snif test.  If you can put
>10,000hp into a 1500lb car, that's fine, as long as it doesn't pollute any
>more then it did when it was new.

But the sniff test does NOT check emissions.  Inspection-type sniff tests
are a sham designed to scare the general public into not modifying 
emission controls.  Specifically sniff testing does NOT test:

*	NOX emissions - engine must be under load for that.
*	Any emission at other than idle
*	Transient emissions.

The self-certification process DOES run the engine on a dyno and DOES look
at all of these modes.  The difference is that you will not be required to
do the durability testing required of OEMs.  Sure you'll spend a couple 
hundred dollars on the testing but that is a bargain compared to what it
lets you do.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From 76701.103@compuserve.com Tue Feb 25 18:36:13 1992
To: 
Subject: RE: Transmission oils.

Folks-
 
On the subject of transmission and rear-end lubricants ....
 
Some years back, I bought an ratty old Bavaria; the previous owner had
been using it as a pickup truck, judging from the number of rusty nails
I found under the spare tire.
 
The transmission was rather loud, too; it didn't make any _bad_ noises,
it just whined, rattled, and generally b!tched about its role in life. I
figured it had the wrong oil, or not enough of it, so I went over to a
friends Jaguar-only garage to "rack" the car and check the tranny oil.
 
"Just change it," said my friend. "Here's a giant allen key.  Always
take out the filler plug first; if you can't get that out, don't drain
it!"
 
The filler plug came out OK, but the tranny was really hot.  I expected
to deep-fry my hand when the hot oil from the drain plug came out.
 
Not to worry.  There wasn't a drop of oil in the whole damned gearbox.
 
Oh, sh!t.
 
So I called one of the local BMW garages and asked 'em what to do.
 
"Does it work OK when you drive it?"
 
"Yeah."
 
"Can you see the gears up inside the 'box?"
 
"Yeah, and they are kinda blue."
 
"If they are still darker than Paul Newman's eyes, just fill it with
oil and drive it."
 
"What kind of oil?"
 
"Use rear-end dope if you have it.  It won't leak out so fast."
 
So, 90W hypoid oil it was, for the next 60,000 miles.  It worked fine.
I sold the car for more than I paid for it, BTW.
 
"Hypoid" oil varies chiefly from other heavy oils in that it has special
additives (EP or "extreme pressure") to cope with the sliding friction
present in hypoid-bevel rear-end gears.  Normal transmissions don't have
this type of friction, so the EP additives are somewhat wasted.  In
fact, the main sliding friction in the manual gearbox is the
synchronizers, who depend on sliding friction for their synchronizing
effect, and EP should, in theory, make them _less_ effective rather than
more.
 
However, I've used 90W hypoid EP oil in all sorts of gearboxes, and it
has worked fine in every case.  The extra viscosity of the oil (versus
30w or ATF) seems to make everything turn at the same speed when it
can, making the synchros more of a fluid coupling, I suppose.
 
That having been said, though, _never_ use thick oil, especially EP, in
'boxes with Laycock de Normanville overdrive units (Volvos, most
Britcars) as the oil pump won't like the viscosity and the EP additives
won't do the friction bands a bit of good.  I wouldn't use it in any
pressure-lubricated gearbox, either, like the 5-speed used in Triumph
TR-8 and Rover RWD cars.
 
Regardless of my favorable experience with EP in manual transmissions,
though, I'm going to try Redline MTL in my 732i next time I change the
'box oil, probably at the 195,000 mile service check.
 
BTW, the 17 mm Allen key "VW Transaxle tool" (in giant "L" form) is
available at most car parts places for a few bucks.  I've never bought
one, though, because everyone who has a grease rack seems to have one!
 
-Shel


From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 18:48:10 1992
Subject: Re: Legality of Modifications
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>> First off, the CAA, along with an EPA ruling now specifically DOES allow
>> putting later model engines in earlier vehicles of the **same type.**
>
>	Certainly an improvement, but still not good enough.  

Well the fact of the matter is that it is no longer permitted to make
uncontrolled modifications to a vehicle.  I don't think that is bad at
all.  One can make the same power but with a much cleaner emissions.
Given the anti-car sentiment arrayed against us, we ought to be happy.
The EPA COULD just flat ban non-OEM parts and quite frankly the hotrod
minority in this country would not have enough clout to stop 'em.
Remember that we've got the large new car companies against us too. 
They'd lots rather see us have to buy new cars rather than modify or
even fix up our old one.

>Also
>it will be far far cleaner than any '71 510 as it came of the showroom!
>But since it is a Mazda engine going into a Nissan car, it is illegal.

If it is as clean as a new car then you can self-certify it.  Contact
SEMA and get their package.  There is a small charge.  In return,
you'll get a practically unlimited license to modify as long as the
results are clean.

>	What should decide legality is the snif test.  If you can put
>10,000hp into a 1500lb car, that's fine, as long as it doesn't pollute any
>more then it did when it was new.

But the sniff test does NOT check emissions.  Inspection-type sniff tests
are a sham designed to scare the general public into not modifying 
emission controls.  Specifically sniff testing does NOT test:

*	NOX emissions - engine must be under load for that.
*	Any emission at other than idle
*	Transient emissions.

The self-certification process DOES run the engine on a dyno and DOES look
at all of these modes.  The difference is that you will not be required to
do the durability testing required of OEMs.  Sure you'll spend a couple 
hundred dollars on the testing but that is a bargain compared to what it
lets you do.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Tue Feb 25 19:47:53 1992
Subject: General Ramblings
To: hotrod@dixie.com


	We'll start off with carbs first. One other thing I haven't 
seen mentioned yet is carbs. On my engine combo (350, Stock Heads,
280 Crane cam, headers, torker II, 1500 stall, 3.42) I had a holley
600 vac. The car was fairly slow off the line. I figured this to be
caused be a too weak a signal in the carb. I put one of those 4 hole
spacers under the carb and it really worked. The car went from 
15.10@93.5 to 14.80@95 with absolutely no other changes. If you have
sufficient hood clearance, spacers are probably worth playing with.

	Now just a little more on the radiator thing. I just did an 
experiment in heat tranfer lab which relates here. The experiment 
invloves a 2 pipe heat exchanger. There is a small pipe inside of a 
large pipe. You have to measure the temperatures in the pipes for 
various flow rates. We used flow rates ranging from .3 cfm to .8 cfm.
The result was that the temperature drop was about the same throughout
the range. The answer: Although the fluid has less and less time for
heat transfer to take place at higher flow rates, the flow is more 
tubulent , and the heat transfer rate is higher.

	Onto FI mustangs (90 LX 5.0) stuff. The ideal timing seems to 
be 13 degrees initial. (make sure you pull the connector out when setting)
This setting over the stock (about 9 in this case, can vary) was good for
about .2 in qm. Also tried to remove the silencer in the air box. (supposed
to be worth a bunch) Car made more noise but didn't go any faster. Possibly
the Block Learns in the fuel injection didn't compensate sufficiently. 
Rerouted the belt with another serpentine to bypass the power steering and
use the AC as an idler. This was worth about .05 in qm. Other things I have
heard of but not tried. Use a pipe to bypass coolant around the throttle
body so it stays cooler (this looks like a worthwhile thing), unhook 
battery to reset FI. 

						Greg

----------
Posted by: Gregory J Perantoni 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 17:03:59 1992
Subject: Re: carb question
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>A pair??  Wow!  From my fading memory, I thought they were a variable venturi
>that cover from about 600 to over 1100 CFM.  There's something about the
>looks of them though...  Are you going for the chrome one Bob??
>
><$brycerw@brandonu.ca
>
>Phil - prg@mgweed.att.com
>
>----------
>Posted by: prg@mgweed.att.com
>
One for sure.  Got an old Holley StreetMaster intake for it. (I think that's
what it's called - it's a single plane single carb highrise).  Don't know 
if I'd go for chrome though - maybe too expensive here in Canada.  
Anybody know if I can still get a 2-carb tunnel ram for this beast (like 
from TRW)?  Or if I will get any gains from a tunnel ram?  The engine is 
being built for a 6000-6500 rpm redline.  Maybe nitrous too if I get real 
adventurous.  Any thoughts?

The 455 is the original engine for the '76 T/A I'm working on.

Robert Bryce
$brycerw@brandonu.ca
brycerw@brandonu.ca

----------
Posted by: $BRYCERW@BrandonU.CA



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 17:09:23 1992
Subject: Re: More on Legalities
To: hotrod@dixie.com

> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 92 14:48 EST
> Subject: Re: More on Legalities
> >
> >If you don't believe me on the fuel 
> >arugment, simply find a modern large car with an instantaneous MPG
> >meter on the pinball dash.  Look at the mileage while cruising at 
> >60 mpg.  My mom's Tbird runs 50-80 mpg depending on the weather 
> >and grade.   The difference in mileage between your MGB and the Caddy
> >comes primarily from the fuel consumed during acceleration.  At 
> >significant throttle openings, neither engine is particularly clean.
> 
> I'm a little skeptical about this.  If you run in the flat, say in
> Texas, OK, or Iowa, and run through a full tank without stopping,
> starting, accelerating or decelerating, then according to your
> plan, we should get 50-80 mpg in the TBird.

You should be skeptical.  The "instantaneous MPG meter" is probably
just a manifold vacuum gauge, with markings just as likely calibrated
to the time of day as any real measurement of MPG.  If the indicator
were marked in PSI or atm., you might get a meaningful reading, but the
markings in MPG have no basis in reality, other than indicating that
one throttle position might give you better mileage than another.  A
reading of "50-80 MPG" might translate to an actual 20-30 MPG; for all
you know, the readings could even be off by a factor of ten.

Unless this is some kind of gizmo hooked up to the engine computer
(which might measure actual fuel used per actual distance, but I doubt
it), the only relationship between the gauge reading and reality is the
fact that they both increase in the same direction.  Getting a higher
meter reading *suggests* that you are getting better mileage.  I would
be surprised if it more than just coincidentally reflected the actual
mileage.

Correct me if I am wrong; if they are calculating actual fuel used per
actual distance, I will be duly impressed.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                 PictureTel, but they ought to be!

----------
Posted by: harling@roadrunner.pictel.com (Dan Harling)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Feb 27 00:07:10 1992
Subject: Re: More on Legalities
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>You should be skeptical.  The "instantaneous MPG meter" is probably
>just a manifold vacuum gauge, with markings just as likely calibrated

No.  It's a real MPG gauge.

>Unless this is some kind of gizmo hooked up to the engine computer

Yep.

>Correct me if I am wrong; if they are calculating actual fuel used per
>actual distance, I will be duly impressed.

Be impressed.  Actually it is very simple to do.  Given that the 
fuel system maintains a constant pressure across the injectors (all
port systems do), measuring fuel consumption is a simple matter of 
totalizing the number of seconds of open injector time, multiplying
it by the flow rate then multiplying by an injection correction
factor that compensates for fuel and pintle inerta.  You've got 
distance info for the pinball dashboard speedo display so MPG is a 
simple matter of division.

This is not new.  BFI (before fuel injection) I had a commercially 
manufactured MPG gauge that did measure actual fuel flow.  When I 
bought my 75 Zcar, I missed this capability so I built a device (using
discrete logic, remember this was the era of the 8080) that did
exactly what I described above.  Worked well.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Feb 27 16:53:57 1992
Subject: Cobras!!
To: hotrod@dixie.com

	I just got a phone call from a high school friend who says her
father is bringing his 427 Cobra down to Willow Springs this weekend for
some sort of Cobra club event (she wasn't really sure what the event was).
Some background:  her father has *at least* 2 genuine 427 Cobras, the one
he is bringing is a race prepared one, he also has a street cobra that I 
have seen that has a 427 with four downdraft webers sitting on it.  I saw 
Cobras at a Vintage Race in Seattle this summer.  He also brought the pace
car (the white Ferrari Testarossa convertibe as seen in Road & Track) a
Lola (?) can am car, and Mario Andretti's '87 (?) John Player Special
Ford/Cosworth F-1 car.  Needless to say, this man has very good taste in
cars!  Anyway, my point:  Anyone close enough to Willow Springs should
consider heading out there this weekend for some very interesting Cobra
action.  And anyone near Claremont Ca might consider giving me a ride
there.... (dcoleman@jarthur.Claremont.edu) (I smashed my '67 Datsun Roadster 
last month, and am without wheels for the rest of the semester)

	-Dave

----------
Posted by: Datsun Dave Coleman 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Thu Feb 27 21:14:43 1992
Subject: Re: More on Legalities
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I may be able to help a little here.  The coefficient of drag (Cd) is defined
as:
           Cd=Drag/(.5*rho*V^2*length^2)

where rho is the density, V is the velocity, and length is a characteristic
length of the vehicle.  The only reference I have here uses a characteristic
length of the height of the vehicle.  The height of the vehicle is defined as
the height from the top of the car to the bottom of the car (not to the 
ground!).  If someone would supply me with the heights of the two cars, and the
Cd's I would be happy to calcuate the drag.  Hope this helps!!

----------
Posted by: John R. Hooker 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 28 01:53:21 1992
Subject: Re: drag (was legalities
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>I may be able to help a little here.  The coefficient of drag (Cd) is defined
>as:
>           Cd=Drag/(.5*rho*V^2*length^2)
>
>where rho is the density, V is the velocity, and length is a characteristic
>length of the vehicle.  The only reference I have here uses a characteristic
>length of the height of the vehicle.  The height of the vehicle is defined as
>the height from the top of the car to the bottom of the car (not to the 
>ground!).  If someone would supply me with the heights of the two cars, and the
>Cd's I would be happy to calcuate the drag.  Hope this helps!!

Use a Cd of 0.4 and see what happens.

There is another interesting equation on page 49 of _Internal Combustion
Engine Fundimentals_ by John Heywood.  This is the equation for 
road-load or the total amount of power needed to maintain a speed 
on level ground.  The equation is

Pr = (CrMvg + 1/ PaCdAvSv**2)Sv

Where: 
Cr = coefficient of rolling resistance (0.012<
>John  (or should I say Dr. John),

Oh nooooooo.... Not Dr. John :-)  Hey, I ain't no Piled High n  Deep :-)

>I really appreciate your excellent postings ... but they are all leading me
>to the same conclusion ... I must get fuel injection on my motor. 

Thanks.

>Can you recommend a setup to use with a 429 ?  I'm still in the stage of building
>up my motor, so this would be a perfect time to work injection in to it.


I know you'll hate this answer but It depends.  You need to tell me what
you're going to do with the motor.  If it's going to be a drag or
road race engine, then my suggestion will be different than for a 
street motor.  I'll assume a street motor and yap a bit.

It still depends.  Do you plan on rolling your own manifolding and 
injector setup or do you want to buy a turn-key?  And can you buy
an aftermarket manifold/injector setup and  integrate an aftermarket
controller?  Do you have to meet emission standards?  If so,
does the process involve a visual inspection?

If you can roll your own injector setup and don't have to meet emissions,
I can highly recommend the Haltech controller.  This system comes with
a controller, a wiring harnass, a fuel pump, all sensors and optionally
a set of injectors.  You have to supply a manifold.  Haltech can supply
you initial parameter datasets for most engines.  Programming is via
a PC serial port.  The software is very nice with a graphical display.
You can tune on the fly.  The unit does not currently run closed 
loop (using a lambda sensor) so you probably won't meet emissions.

I can also conditionally recommend the Electromotive integrated engine
management system.  What I like about the system is that it uses 
direct ignition (one coil per pair of cylinders) with a crank trigger,
can read a lambda and a knock sensor and is fairly inexpensive.  What I
don't like is the fact that the tuning software has an archaic character
interface, the documentation sux and I've seen a report from a fellow
netter outlining all the problems he's had.  I'll know a LOT more about
the electromotive system after the weekend of the 13th because I'll
be spending the weekend with a friend burning a dyno while tuning his
race car engine.

If you have to meet emissions and a visual, you might consider a chevy
TPI system with the (i think) edlebrock intercept controller.  I can't
put my hands on the literature at the moment but I think Edlebrock makes
it.  This box plugs between the wiring harnass and the ECU and modifies
the signals according to a program you install with a PC.  When inspection
time comes around, you simply snap the box out and let 'em look :-)

A turnkey system that looks real nice, has gotten good press but with which
I have no personal experience is the Accel SuperRam system.  IT uses
Accel's TPI manifolds and throttle body (rated at 1000 cfm) and DFI's
controller.  Again programmable from a PC.  I've not seen the programming
software so I can't comment.

IF you're going for all out performance, you might want to look at NOS's
system. I think it uses the DFI controller too but it can also proportionally
control a nitrous oxide system. They have a set of stack manifolds, a
la Hilborn, available that looks nice.  Again I have no personal experience.


BTW, I've been considering becomming a Haltech dealer.  I have to buy
an initial stock which I would, of course, discount to hotrod list members :-)
If there's enough serious interest here, I'll go ahead and do it.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 28 03:05:56 1992
Subject: Introduction
To: hotrod@dixie.com



Hello fellow rodders.

First I'd like to thank John De Armond for starting this answer-to-my-prayers
list. THANKS JOHN!!!

Second I guess I'll introduce myself:
David Gunsul dcg@mogun.uucp
Proud owner of:

1977 Camaro. red/black tan interior.

ENGINE: 350 cu. in. 

FEATURING: Polished aluminum 600 cfm. Edelbrock carb, Edelbrock alum. Performer
manifold, Comp. Cams 280 degree cam ( 480 degree lift.), Comp. Cams 1.52
roller rocker arms, Pete Jackson noisy dual idler gear drive, Summit forged
steel crankshaft, 9.5:1 pistons, Milodon chrome oil pan with baffle and
windage tray, TRW high vol. oil pump, Fluidampr. 

IGNITION: Accel blueprinted HEI. distributor, Accel 50,000 volt HEI. super coil,
Accel 8.8 mil. silicone wires, Bosch platinum spark plugs.

EXHAUST: Cyclone headers with Cyclone dual exhaust system and Walker Dynomax
super turbo mufflers.

DRIVE TRAIN ETC.: Muncie aluminum M21 4-speed with Hurst super competition plus
shifter, 10-bolt 4:11 rear, Comp. Engineering sub frame connectors, Lake wood 
traction bars and a lot of chrome goodies.

I have a long way to go yet.

Well thats enough of that.  Sorry for the length of this list, hope I didn't
bore any of you to much.


                       David Gunsul 



                       The information contained in the post above
                       may be unsuitable for younger or more sensitive
                       readers. This post was written as it happened,
                       nothing was reenacted.

----------
Posted by: mgwhiz!mogun!dcg@mgweed.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 28 11:50:40 1992
Subject: Re: Looking for '64 Nova SS (or 62-65 Nova/Chevy II) parts
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Pat,
  There is a place here in Denver that specializes in Nova parts, new and used.  It's called Novas Only owned and operated by Don Maurer.  The phone number  is (303) 940-8356.  I've bought many parts from Don and always found him to be very retheGood luck
        Randy White
        Member National Nostalgic Nova Club
        1966 Sport Coupe

----------
Posted by: rlw@drutx.att.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 28 12:14:29 1992
Subject: Custom work on my Dart
To: hotrod@dixie.com


What a great list! I'm pretty impressed by both the technical knowledge
displayed here and the lack of flame nonsense.

	So let me start with a request for advice:

	I'm getting ready to start working on one of my favorite cars-
a '63 Dart that I drove like a maniac in my younger years (okay, ten
years ago, when I was a teen). It's got the 2nd generation body style
when it first appeared, and was cool- before it became plain. You can
laugh (many people do, at Darts) but I really do like this car a great deal.

	Now it's time to find a drivetrain. The original slant-6 225
spun its bearings away years back, and the transmission is also gone. The
upside of this is that now I can decide just what the perfect engine
would be. As far as I know, fit should be no problem- I met a guy who 
(after wrecking his Barracuda :^(  ) slid the big-block hemi right
into a '64 Dart, and I'm told that the 63 should also be no problem, 
with the right crossmember. (Anyone have experience with the '63?)

	I'm not a racer, just a guy who likes to zip around and 
once in a while find an empty highway to cut loose in. So I don't
think I need a big block (and I don't need the tire bills!) Fuel
economy is at least a small factor- if I want to drive around at
6 mpg, I have a '60 Cadillac for that!

	I've heard that the 318 is a good choice, that you can make
a very good combination of heads, cam, etc.. Lately, though, I've   
been hearing about slant-6 fanatics who even race the things. What are
the advantages/disadvantages? Which transmission is best for the
small-block? 
	I do prefer a manual, but the Dart has a pushbutton shift,
and I can't resist that. 

	Sorry if this is too old or simple an issue- but I just
don't know anyone else around here with oil for blood. I have many
questions if you get me started- I've done bolt-on stuff and rebuilt
manual transmissions, but I don't consider myself any kind of expert
mechanic, especially where high performance is concerned, and I've 
decided to cut my teeth on customizing with this car.

	Also: what is the proper forum for discussion of bodywork-
both restorative and custom? How can I get a listing of
other automotive digests (specific marques, etc)?

	Thanks!



.    .    .         .    .    .    .    .         .    .    .          
      -Paul Clark      a-paulc@microsoft.com

 '36 Nash Lafayette    L-head 6, in slow restoration (not a good rod choice)
 '60 Cadillac          390 V8  w/ stock 10.5:1 compression
 '63 Jeep (hybrid)     230 OHC 6 'Tornado' engine
 '63 Dart              -no drivetrain yet!-
 '68 Cutlass	       350 Olds Rocket
 '70 IH 1/2 ton        345 V8  workhorse
 '79 Accord            CVCC econo-survival 
 

----------
Posted by: a-paulc@microsoft.COM



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 28 14:20:54 1992
Subject: Re:  Custom work on my Dart
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>
>
>What a great list! I'm pretty impressed by both the technical knowledge
>displayed here and the lack of flame nonsense.
>
>	So let me start with a request for advice:
>
>	I'm getting ready to start working on one of my favorite cars-
>a '63 Dart that I drove like a maniac in my younger years (okay, ten
>years ago, when I was a teen). It's got the 2nd generation body style
>when it first appeared, and was cool- before it became plain. You can
>laugh (many people do, at Darts) but I really do like this car a great deal.

I won't laugh - my Purple (yes, purple, the stock color) 66 Dart
gets its share of yuks...

>
>	Now it's time to find a drivetrain. The original slant-6 225
>spun its bearings away years back, and the transmission is also gone. The
>upside of this is that now I can decide just what the perfect engine
>would be. As far as I know, fit should be no problem- I met a guy who 
>(after wrecking his Barracuda :^(  ) slid the big-block hemi right
>into a '64 Dart, and I'm told that the 63 should also be no problem, 
>with the right crossmember. (Anyone have experience with the '63?)

The 318 of that year was basically a bigblock, so it shouldn't be
too tough to either stick with the slant 6, or go for a B or RB
bigblock.  The hemi used the same K member, but exhaust manifolds
might be an issue (dunno if headers are made for this engine/body).

>
>	I'm not a racer, just a guy who likes to zip around and 
>once in a while find an empty highway to cut loose in. So I don't
>think I need a big block (and I don't need the tire bills!) Fuel
>economy is at least a small factor- if I want to drive around at
>6 mpg, I have a '60 Cadillac for that!
>
>	I've heard that the 318 is a good choice, that you can make
>a very good combination of heads, cam, etc.. Lately, though, I've   
>been hearing about slant-6 fanatics who even race the things. What are
>the advantages/disadvantages? Which transmission is best for the
>small-block? 

One big advantage of sticking with your slant 6 is that all the
brackets and linkages should be correct.  I don't think the LA
engine was available before 64 or 65, and probably not in the
63 Dart, so getting brackets, hoses, shift and throttle linkages
from junkyards could be a problem.

One big disadvantage, of course, is the selection of performance
parts for the slant six is more limited than you would like.
Direct Connection sells some stuff, but far more for the LA, B
and RB engines.

Given that the 63 didn't come with an LA engine, putting this
style engine in will be a big pain - enough so that if you're
going to bother with the hassle of linkages, etc, you might as
well put in a 383/400/440 or maybe even a 426 hemi.


>	I do prefer a manual, but the Dart has a pushbutton shift,
>and I can't resist that. 

Hey, who can?  Babes love those weird windshield wipers that go
the 'wrong' way, too.  (*:

>
>	Sorry if this is too old or simple an issue- but I just
>don't know anyone else around here with oil for blood. I have many
>questions if you get me started- I've done bolt-on stuff and rebuilt
>manual transmissions, but I don't consider myself any kind of expert
>mechanic, especially where high performance is concerned, and I've 
>decided to cut my teeth on customizing with this car.
>
>	Thanks!
>
>
>
>.    .    .         .    .    .    .    .         .    .    .          
>      -Paul Clark      a-paulc@microsoft.com
>
> '63 Dart              -no drivetrain yet!-
> '70 IH 1/2 ton        345 V8  workhorse
jeez, I had one of these, too...  gotta love the tough truck
feel, and hate the agonies of repair...

If I could encourage you to do something, it would be to
keep the basic arrangement of the car stock - stick with original
type of engine and trans, but work with what you have to make
it really nice - good power, milage, emissions, etc.

I have a similar problem with my 65 Plymouth Belvedere - it
has a 273 on its last legs, but as much as I would like to go
to a 440 magnum, I think the right thing for me to do is stick
with perhaps a 360 4V.  There are many considerations here,
including brake and suspension upgrades, new torsion bars,
possible new radiator, desire to keep AC working, and more of
the same - all these things keep me from the bigblock upgrade.
Someday when I have a good garage, maybe I'll give it a shot,
but till then, simpler changes probably win out for me.

A better starting point for a 440 car is a car that already
had a bigblock in it, and preferably one of the B or E body
cars of the later 60's and early 70's - it makes it easier
to get good brake and suspension systems, for example.

Good luck!

Paul Anderson
pha@hri.com

----------
Posted by: pha@hri.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 28 19:04:05 1992
Subject: Re: Torque Converter flushing
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>i just got a converter flushed and the person who did
>it tapped a small hole in the converter and put in a
>bolt about a 1/4 inch diameter in it to plug the
>hole.  does anyone have any feedback as to whether
>this will cause problems such as unbalancing the
>converter?  any feedback would be appreciated.

I'm not too crazy about that technique because of the problems
mentioned and because they can leak.  I usually just touch
a spot of weld to the hole.

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 28 20:14:14 1992
Subject: Port Fuel Injection
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Hi all-
	
	This is my first post to the Hotrod List, and I've already
seen some of the other messages.  I'm quite impressed.  It looks (and is)
really good.  Now, I'd like some commentary on fuel injection.  here goes:

	I've got a 71' olds cutlass convetible, 350 _OLDSMOBILE_ engine,
TH-400.  I have just rebuilt the engine, and right now it's got a older
Carter AFB on it.  I love the carb, but the gas mileage sucks, and well,
port injection, programable from a laptop would be nice.  I have a 
decent amount of experience working with GM fuel injection on their 
front-drivers, but have never touched any port injection stuff. I 
work in a salvage yard part time, so I have access to an amazing amount
of used f.i. stuff.  As I can gather, my options are:

1)  Use holly (or simular) central injection.  I don't like that system
cause it's central, and has no oxygen sensor, and (I belive) no PC port
connection capablility.

2)  Pay big bucks to have an aluminum OLDS manifold retrofitted with 
injectors, and use a aftermartket control box.

3) Use the F.I. manifold from a early to mid 80's eldorado/toranado/caddy
that used the OLDS 350 with port injection.  Then get a aftermarket box
and adapt it to control it.  This is what I prefer, since I can get these 
manifolds from where I work, with injectors and throttle body, dirt cheap.

What I would like is: your comments on which way is best to go, keeping
in mind that I want to do this cheap as possible, would like to use
option #3, and find a control box that accepts serial data from a PC 
laptop, and can use a oxygen sensor, so it can run in closed loop.
	I live in New York, so there is no visual inspection (at least 
not where I get it inspected), but I want to get maximum economy with
maximum power (oxymoron, eh?).  Personally, I don't consider F.I. to 
be really good if it does not have a oxy sensor, since it can't really
know what it is doing with the mixture if it can't read it, right?

The companies I have considered:
Cutler/Haltech
Electromotive
Holly
Accel
????

Thanks, and any help is MUCH appreciated !

Bob  ----->> RAVALENT@rodan.acs.syr.edu

----------
Posted by: ""Robert A. Valentine"" 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Fri Feb 28 23:46:56 1992
Subject: Re: Port Fuel Injection
To: hotrod@dixie.com

>front-drivers, but have never touched any port injection stuff. I 
>work in a salvage yard part time, so I have access to an amazing amount
>of used f.i. stuff.  As I can gather, my options are:

Ok, so I'm envious :-)

>1)  Use holly (or simular) central injection.  I don't like that system
>cause it's central, and has no oxygen sensor, and (I belive) no PC port
>connection capablility.

Did you see my previous post on the Pro-jection system?  If not, I'll
dig it out and mail it to you.

>3) Use the F.I. manifold from a early to mid 80's eldorado/toranado/caddy
>that used the OLDS 350 with port injection.  Then get a aftermarket box
>and adapt it to control it.  This is what I prefer, since I can get these 
>manifolds from where I work, with injectors and throttle body, dirt cheap.
>
>What I would like is: your comments on which way is best to go, keeping
>in mind that I want to do this cheap as possible, would like to use
>option #3, and find a control box that accepts serial data from a PC 
>laptop, and can use a oxygen sensor, so it can run in closed loop.

Since  you have access to a junkyard, why don't you consider just swapping
the motor for a late model 'Vette engine and control system?  If that's
too much trouble, then why not just grab a late model 'Vette ECU and
manifolding?  Add a $100 hotrod ROM and you'll have a very good 
running engine that will look fairly stock and will pass the sniff-test.
You won't have the PC programmability but the engine will run good and
you'll meet your cheep goal.

If you want to go aftermarket, I'd probably recommend at this point
the Haltech system, if for no other reason than I have more experience
with it.  Since you're dealing with a '71, your emission requirements
are trivial.  You can either slap a cat on the car and forget about it
or go cat-less and simply tune the engine carefully, preferably using an
emission analyzer.  Closed loop operation would gain you some 
economy but is not really necessary for emissions.  

John

----------
Posted by: jgd (John De Armond)



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Sat Feb 29 09:42:15 1992
Subject: Fuel Injection, thanks
To: hotrod@dixie.com

Hi all-

	John, thanks for the advice on fuel injection on my 71 olds.
I'd include the body of your text, but the mailer's screwed.

   To summarize, the 'vette motor idea is great, but I'd really like 
to keep the existing motor, since I've got a fair amount of money and 
time in it, and I'd like to keep the car olds powered.  
   If you could, I'd like to see the post you mentioned, and also if 
you could tell me a little more about Haltech.  I've pretty much 
decided that I'd like a laptop programable unit (unless it is 
prohibitively (sp?) expensive), since it in my view is the best way, in 
terms of tuneablitly.  
    
   I also tend to think that a system that runs in closed loop (oxy sensor) 
would be better, since the ECU would have a input of oxy content in the exhaust
which is representitive of the richness/leanness of the mixture.  While I'm 
at it, what about the possiblity of having the f.i. computer control the 
spark timing.  I've yet to hear of such a beast from the aftermarket-- a
f.i. controler and spark control all in one case.  Could you also include 
some approximate prices for these units?

thanks, 
  bob-  --> RAVALENT@rodan.acs.syr.edu

----------
Posted by: ""Robert A. Valentine"" 



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 14:24:41 1992
Subject: Misc. Ramblings
To: hotrod@dixie.com

I hope I haven't gone on too much about laws, but
it seems like everything I like to do is being
attacked by some do-gooder or another.

On to the important stuff.
Last weekend, I installed an adjustable cam sprocket in
my '76 MGB.  It is amazing what tinkering with the valve
timing can do for power and drivability.  I'd like to
encourage everyone to look into some sort of variable 
cam gear.  (I understand that some newer cars come with
adjustable gears--I don't touch much of anything built
after 1980)

If anyone has any questions as to whether or the MGB is
a car that belongs in these discussions, I'd like to point
out the these cars raced and won at places like Sebring,
Le Mans, Monaco, the Spa, Silvestone,  Monte Carlo (rally),
and that the MGB won the SCCA class title at the Road Atlanta
national every year from 1971 to 1977.  The early cars (before
emissions laws) came from the factory generating 1HP/cubic inch.

Someone out there asked about carb alternatives.  I know they are
expensive, but what about Weber IDA/IDF types?  How do these carbs
perform on American V-8's?  Is anyone outh there currently running
Webers?  I know they were used on some Cobra's and GT-40's.  My
girlfriend and I are thinking about installing a Weber in place
of the 2 bbl on her Mustang. (1978 Cobra II with the 302 and four 
speed tranny)  I know we may have to search for a manifold, but
custom fabbing is no problem.

We do need help with the 'Stang.  Does anyone know anything about
rebuilding the differntials in them?  We parked the car because
it started howling like a banshee and it doesn't sound like a
u-joint.



Keith Wheeler

----------
Posted by: kmwheeler@UALR.EDU



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 14:31:11 1992
Subject: Re: 327 engine modifications 
To: hotrod@dixie.com


>Thanks for the ideas on ways to increase the performance of my '65 Chey
>327.  So far the suggestions include:

>I have several questions.  As far as the Edelbrock cam, lifters, and
>manifold -  are there model numbers of these items that I can use that
>people know work well for the 327, or should I just go to Jegs and get
>their recommendation?  As far as the carb, the 327 currently has a
>Rochester 4Jet.  Is is necesary to replace it with an Edelbrock, and if
>so what size and model should I use?  As far as the headers, does anyone
>have a mfg's preference?  And finally, regarding the transmisson 
>replacement - how will the th350 affect the column shifter I have with
>the standard P R N D L positions (I'm assuming the th350 is a 3 speed)?
>As you can tell I have no experience in this type of upgrade and am
>looking forward to your advice.
----------
>Posted by: Dean Schell 

Your Rotenchester will work just fine on that manafold. As for headers
my experience tells me to stay away from Black Jack headers. I used them
on a Camaro and they were the worst fit I had ever seen, Basic SHIT!
I've had good luck with Headmans and hookers and presently have
Edelbrock (yes Edelbrock) tuned headers on my S10 v6. They are stainless
steel and have never leaked in the two years that I've had them on the
truck. These are the type that bolt right up to the catalytic converter
and they work great! Much better sound and performance than stock!
  _________________________________   _____________________________________
 /         _______________         \ /  OLD CHEVYS NEVER DIE, THEY JUST GO \
|        //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\\  |     |             F A S T E R !!            |
|      / /_________________\ \|     |   OLD JAPANESE CARS NEVER DIE, THEY   |
|  -------------------------------  |       JUST TURN INTO BEER CANS!!      |
|  / O O O -----Chevy----- O O O \  |_______________________________________|
| (_______________________________) | MARK JENSEN           (503) 627-3115  |
| (_______________________________) | TEKTRONIX METROLOGY LAB.              |
|  |\ _________________________ /|  | BEAVERTON, OREGON        MS. 39-732   | 
|  |      |`V'  `---'  `V'|      |  |        markj@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM       |
 \_|______|_______________|______|_/ \_____________________________________/

----------
Posted by: markj@tekig5.pen.tek.com



From hotrod@Dixie.Com Wed Feb 26 14:50:12 1992
Subject: Re: More on Legalities
To: hotrod@dixie.com

hotrod@dixie.com (The Hotrod List) writes:

>>From the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, 22 Feb 1992:
>   >Shop Talk by Richard Young
>   >...Here are some current legal battles that will
>   >affect drivers...House Bill 1790, currently being
>   >considered by Congress, will give the automobile
>   >manufacturers a 10-year monopoloy on almost every
>   >part on a car, from filters and spark plugs to
>   >gaskets and bearings...

Instead of running a red herring up the flag pole based on a newspaper
magazine article, why don't you investigate a little and find out 
what HB 1790 is?  Most likely one of those thousands of idiotic
bills that get introduced each year that properly find themselves
on the chamber floor in milliseconds.  A quick call to  your 
Rep's district office will get you that information and a copy of the 
proposed bill.  It's been my experience as a part time lobbyist (NRA radical)
that even hideous bills rarely say what the papers claim they say.

>  These 'clean air' laws are bunk.  We have already stopped
>  the one very dangerous auto emission--we no longer put
>  lead in our fuel.  

Lead is popular with the environmental trendies  now but I've never
considered fuel based lead to be a threat.  Photochemical smog
during inversions, smog whose roots lie with NOX emissions ARE a threat.
I disagree with our government on how much of a threat it is but it
is a threat.

>  See if my logic is right.  My street car is an MGB with
>  some modifications.  If its 'evil' high compression engine
>  puts out say 10% bad stuff, then what is the difference 
>  between it and my step-dad's Cadillac, which may only put 
>  out 2% bad stuff, but the Cady's engine is 5 times the 
>  size of the MG.  Volumetrically, they put out the same
>  amount.  In the real world, the Cadillac puts out more
>  emissions, because it is driven more miles.

No, your logic is not right.  Assuming your step-dad's Caddy is fairly
new, it's exhaust will be practically sterile at idle and part 
throttle cruise.  I explained why this is before.   Since at cruise
at highway speeds your MGB and the Caddy will be burning similiar amounts
of fuel, your MGB is dirtier.  If you don't believe me on the fuel 
arugment, simply find a modern large car with an instantaneous MPG
meter on the pinball dash.  Look at the mileage while cruising at 
60 mpg.  My mom's Tbird runs 50-80 mpg depending on the weather 
and grade.   The difference in mileage between your MGB and the Caddy
comes primarily from the fuel consumed during acceleration.  At 
significant throttle openings, neither engine is particularly clean.

In the NOX arena, your MGB with it high compression engine and its
ancient combustion chamber design and no EGR emits many times what
the Caddy does under all conditions.  (Hmm.  Guess I need to 
scrape up some numbers to support that, huh. I'll try.)  From the literature,
combustion chamber design seems to be the key.  Some production engines are
now able to dispense with EGR because of efficient chamber design and
a 3-way catalyst.

>  Also, what is worse for the enviroment, the emission controled
>  gas guzzling Cadillac, or my grocery getter 1968 Renault R10,
>  with no emissions controls, but it does get 39 MPG?

If the Caddy's in tune, your Renault.

>  We do not need to be assaulted with stupid laws simply because
>  some people in California who live very close together down
>  in a valley want to blame autos for all their problems.

I'm on the other end of the country from the land of fruits and nuts.
I am fond of refering to the green weenies as econazis.  At the same
time, I do live in an area that has NOX problems during the summer,
MOSTLY caused by nature but contributed to by automobiles.  I believe
we have adequate controls at the present. On the other hand, I believe
that us hotrodders should adopt the nuclear philosophy of ALARA or
As Low As Reasonably Achievable.  That is the philosophy that guides 
us nukes when deciding what to do about radiation hazards.   Even if
a situation is not a hazard but reasonable steps will reduce exposure,
we take those reasonable steps.

Similarly, we hotrodders don't have to strive for absolute purity as the
econazis would have it.  All we need to do to be good citizens and get
along with the EPA is take reasonable steps.  Sure the name of the game
has changed.  I now tune with a PC instead of a jet wrench.  But I can
do that tuning from the cockpit during operation.  That's a big win in
my book.  Unfortunately the popular hotrod magazines are not going 
to lead the way in this area.  They seem to have their collective heads
stuck up their collective sixties asses.  I figure its a bunch of guys
who are having a midlife crisis and are trying to relive their youth.
About the only magazine I've found that addresses hotrodding in the 90s
is _Turbo and High Performance_ magazine.  Check out a few back issues
and see how to make 400 or more horsepower and meet emissions.

If you want to make the argument that a few hotrodders don't contribute
didly to the emission problem, I'd agree fully.  We don't.  There are,
however, two problems.  One is, the form of government we citizens have
allowed to evolve runs on symbolism and one jacked up, loud, soot belching
hotrod on TV is very symbolic.  The second is, how would we define a 
hotrod if we were to have an exemption?  Does putting a lift kit under
an old beater make it a hotrod?   If not, then how do we let people
who can't afford to do it all at once participate?  One person might slap
a lift kit and glasspacks on a car just to try to escape the sniff test
while another might do it as this month's contribution to the whole
car.  The first guy is clearly wrong but how do we draw the line?

Maybe I'm perverted but I get a lot of pleasure from having a car that
can smoke its tires knowing that it also is immune from the eco-gestapo.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC        | "I'm a lawyer but I guess I'm also human." 
Rapid Deployment System, Inc. |             Ian Zimmerman. 
Marietta, Ga                  |      Lawyer for the purse snatcher
jgd@dixie.com                 |   scum who sued the taxi driver in 'Frisco.

----------
Posted by: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)