thirdgen.org
(grumpy)
Bruce had posted 7,554 messages on Thirdgen since June of 2000. 1000 threads remained in their database, the earliest from April of 2001.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2001, 09:29 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by nicksL98:
Hey guys.. I have an 89 Formula that HAD a 305 TBI. It went south and i put in a stock
92 Chevy truck 350. I swapped on the 350 knock sensor and the Whole
tb/injectors...BUT what about the chip?
Will the factory truck chip snap right into my Formula's computer and work just fine ..or
what? Are they compatible at all? How about the Caprice "police" chip? Part numbers
would be helpful too!!
The cop TBI used different injectors and a different ecm.
What ecm are you now running?.
Just run the entire set up and see how it goes, then if not happy start reading up on chip burning.
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-08-2001, 11:31 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
alright.......
I've save the my old bin which is off an old hypertech chip. And I'm curious how to get the information to tuner cats so I can see what they did different from stock.
when I try to load the info. to tuner cats as a bin it's not showing up as a bin.
How do you go about doing this........
it's got me stumpt.
Find a compare utility, going thru table by table will take along time.
PS. usually not worth the effort anyway, for most aftermarket chips
--------------------------------
Old 04-09-2001, 11:00 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by GregWestphal:
This is probably the first post I've actually started but something is bugging me that I can't get off my mind. Last fall, I was running sort-of rich (940-950 mV) since I had just started my own prom-burning, but I still set a record-best of 14.86 at 91 mph in 75-degree dry air (track is at sea level - MIR). Last Friday, I ran a best of 15.5 at 87.2 mph in 68-degree very-humid air with O2's in the 960 range. This is the same chip (except for 2 degrees more timing in the mid-range) I ran a week ago on a chassis dyno. On the dyno, I gained 4 horsepower across the whole powerband (2800 to 5200 rpm) by leaning out my PE by 4% and my O2's were in the 908-912 range. The air then was somewhat humid, but it was also cooler, in the low 50's (degree F).
My questions are: how much power does an engine lose due to humidity? How 'bout air temperature? Would the engine run richer due to hotter and more-humid air since there is less oxygen available to be burned? The only major change since last fall is the replacement of a gutted cat with a high-flow Random Tech cat. I have a hard time believing that it would cost me 30-40 horsepower, especially since the engine still feels very strong, even after 130k miles. Thoughts? Comments?
First off, the addition of water changes the basic formula of reaction. During the compression cycle the heat releases the H2O to simple H and O. H is a fuel and O is an oxidizer, in the right guantity, (ala Space Shuttle). During the reaction prossess they release energy so, there should be a slight gain in HP. trouble is intake tract routing.
Simple timing changes take care of most ambient air temp changes
Remember stock O2 are back pressure sensitive, to some degree, and that other then your running richer then Stoic are meaning less.
All boils down to what the engine wants. By keeping complete notes you find the tuning trends for YOU engine that work.
When FULLY tuned right, ambient temp and hum shouldn't make much of a change, or let me say for any given calibration, that is doumented. From 32dF to 90dF ambient air temps some cars like a variance of 4 degrees, and some 10. Again, it's wnat the engine wants
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 11:08 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Wooten:
I think that is Decel Fuel Cut Off. when you are decelerating, (high map, high speed, or maybe slowing rate of speed), if the ecm does not turn off the fuel it will load up & back fire through the exhaust. kinda like Billy Bob jimmy jacks, 19 and 65 chevrolet pickum up with them thar chery bomb muffins.
thats my cousin btw.
BW
Also, on some applications you need to rework it so that the engine doesn't stall on over run, like with a small converter, on turbo'd motor can be used as an anti-lag strategy.
Ya, my GN has a crackle on overrun. Just means I'm already on the pipe, and don't have to wait around for any **turbo lag**...
-------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 11:23 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
This question has been addressed quite a bit, and it has been determined that for SD cars that the ecm does in fact use the MAT to calculate air flow and ultimately the injector pulse width.
But I have been reviewing the hac for MAF cars (as well as Greg Westphal) and no where in the hac can I see any code or tables similar to the SD's MAT Inverse Look Up Tables. The only check of the MAT appears to be as Grumpy has said earlier controls the enabling of the EGR.
I do not have a MAF car, so I cannot test this with a variety of resistors to see if there is affect to the Injector Pulse Widths, but it starting to look like the MAT has no effect in the calculation of air flow for MAF cars. Possibly as Greg has suggested to me in an e-mail, the cooler temp is already accounted for by the way the MAF reads the air flow.
If this is all true, then a relocated MAT is truly a useless mod for MAF cars and a complete waste of money.
couple things:
You have to remember the lastest of the all MAF code was 89 and that had to certified in 85 so we're talking almost 20 year old code.
Detroit has always done enough to get by, so there was no reason for them to get any more anal then necessay.
If you were to look at say a 95 S/C Pontiac hac you'd see where there are timing corrections just on IAT / MAT.
The older MAFs weren't all that accurate, or should I say had that great of resolution. On *some* MAFs they actually run better with the MAF disconneted, in just a Alpha N default mode.
IF the MAF was perfect then the fueling would be right as far as fueling goes. Trouble is you need a timing correction for IAT / MAT for best all weather performance.
On the 148 code there is a IAT timing table that they use in the N/A applications, and yet is 0'd out in the GNs. Figure the logic out in that one. Specially since so many guys tune during hot weather, and then are surprised when they detonate in the cold weather, oh well.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 11:29 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
I don't think it's running too rich at wot, I didn't mention it's 406 tpi with mass air.
what would add more fuel......increasing the percentages?
406 with MAF, I doubt you'll really ever get it more then OK. I'd be MAP, and with at least 30s if not maybe bigger injectors.
-----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-14-2001, 10:38 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
OPS:
I gotta get caught up on some stuff, and revisit this. Just hate it when I miss something.
BUT, bottom line to it all is learning, and I enjoy that.
But even more so is sharing new info..
Thanks
From all of us at CSH, HQ
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2001, 12:35 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mirage2991:
I don't have a scan tool...I checked all sensors I could think that are related to closed loop...haven't check the ECM grounds yet nor the O2 wire connection...but I'm more worry that the ECM is not sending a code, like I would think it should....
Very likely that things will act strange to you, if your still using the 85 ecm. It's the first year TPI, and really was kind lame in my opinion. I'd look into updating to at least a 89 code and ecm set up, or better yet 730.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2001, 12:29 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mike89z:
My car wants to die whenever I put it in gear(auto). The car stutters and the idle drops to 400 which sometimes causes it to die. I was wondering if it was because my timing was too advanced. Could the stall spark feature in the 6E bin help me?
Might try starting all over but with the MAF screens in.
Also, might need a 800 rpm idle speed.
If you have a MAF car just use the 6E, it'e the best of the group
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2001, 07:07 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
][/b]
On my own stuff, I like a 0 IAC at idle. So I set the min idle speed so that the engine will just idle, without stalling. Then noting that rpm set the idle speed to right at that speed, ie on the GN idle speed is 675 (in gear), and has a commanded 650. Course some cars won't idle down smoothly at this rpm but my car does.
Once I have hot idle right, then I slowly back up on idle cold rpm settings. Then the max IAC count.
On several early 747 work arounds were using an electric drill and file to make a less sevrer taper.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-14-2001, 08:12 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Guys,
I know i have just recieved all of the programming equipment to start my own proms. And i didn't believe how hard the MAF is compared to the SD. Its amazing. I'm going to give the MAF system a while on me to see how is and well i can tune it. If i can't get it working ok i'm going to SD.
I was over reading about the SD swap that Mike Davis wrote about his 85Z(yea i know everybody has seem that already). What i was wondering about is. Where can i get that adapter that he plugged the OEM connector into that changes the plugs over to other plugs. Another question is about the VSS. I have a cable driven tranny, what do i do about that?
Thanks,
Brendan
P.S. I thought this would be the best place to post the question.
Mike and or Dave Zug we making some adapters for doing that, at one time. You wind up having to swap some MAF wires for the MAP stuff so you can flip back and forth, but it's more then a ecm R+R
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-15-2001, 10:02 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mirage2991:
I saw one of this on an 87 GN today, he was running a 93-up MAF on it, hooked to that boxe...what does that do? and would it work on our MAF cars?
There are two of them. One allows for minor fueling changes, and the other timing and fuel changes. A special chip allows reading to 512 grams/sec., so you have full resolution of tuning. Another item is being able to run a LT1 or LS1 MAF.
Won't work on the v8 MAF FBodies
BTW, I run one on my 87 GN and love it..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2001, 07:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Andres:
I just recently installed 24# Ford SVO injectors in my 1988 TPI 350. Does the PROM need to be sent out for reprogramming? I am currently running a TPIS Level 4 PROM. So far the car runs fine at idle and WOT with no rich smell coming from the exhaust. I am running the injectors at 50 psi and the car does not run rich at all, even at idle. If the PROM does have to be reburned, what needs to be done to it? Will I see a noticable difference? Thanks for the help!
Joe
You do need a custom prom for your set up.
Having a proper chip is just magic. Even for a stock car, you can't beleive what a difference getting it right can mean.
-------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-16-2001, 06:10 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg '85 T/A:
Sorry, not a PROM question but figured this forum was my best bet -
I was wondering if a TPS or MAT could be wired to an Accel DFI unit AND the factory ECM at the same time. That way, the factory ECM could be retained for EGR, Purge Cannister, A.I.R., etc., for anyone wanting to install DFI and remain emissions-legal. Otherwise, I've been thinking about developing a BASIC Stamp or using a Z-World (if you know what that is)to control all the emissions stuff Accel doesn't.
p.s. I contacted Accel on this and they were rather coy (wanted me to contact an approved DFI installation center). They led me to believe, however, that it was possible.
You'd have to check the impedance of the DFI, very closely. The GM stuff switches pull up resistances on some ecms at different temps for better resolution. So you might get some nonesense readings, I tried running a 747, and 730 (on an ecm bench), and can speach from actually experience that you possibly can run into problems. IF the DFI is real high impedance then no problem.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 10:45 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Are you sure it is for a MAF car? Sounds like it may have been intended for an SD car with that 27256 eprom.
Depending on what's on hand, even GM supplies have used 256s in what are normal 128 applications. Sometimes 2x images, and some times 1/2 is 00s
------------------------------------
Old 04-16-2001, 06:19 PM #27
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Stormshadow GTA:
i was reading in the new HPP and they said early tpi engines can get 20 25 horse just by changing the chip.Because they didn't have the obd or odb what ever the emmissions **** is.I seriously question this but can anyone give hp gains from various chips
On some cars yes.
Promming is just like changing jets, and recurving a distributor. NO TWO CARS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE, or DRIVEN THE SAME.
Buying a chip over the phone, is like bolting a Holley on out of the box. Buy a $100-$500 chip and your getting a blueprinted Holley. Neither probably are perfect for your car, and driving style.
Once you get past idle cruise and WOT then you get to a whole different world, of tuning the car for the way you drive, which no aftermarket guy can do, PERIOD.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 04-16-2001, 06:23 PM #28
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Stormshadow GTA:
i was reading in the new HPP and they said early tpi engines can get 20 25 horse just by changing the chip.Because they didn't have the obd or odb what ever the emmissions **** is.I seriously question this but can anyone give hp gains from various chips
On some cars yes.
Promming is just like changing jets, and recurving a distributor. NO TWO CARS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE, or DRIVEN THE SAME.
Buying a chip over the phone, is like bolting a Holley on out of the box. Buy a $100-$500 chip and your getting a blueprinted Holley. Neither probably are perfect for your car, and driving style.
Once you get past idle cruise and WOT then you get to a whole different world, of tuning the car for the way you drive, which no aftermarket guy can do, PERIOD.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 04-16-2001, 06:54 PM
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2001, 06:17 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I have an 89 six speed Vette with a 396 small block. I'm in the process of tuning the car now. My question is I know that removing screens, removing fins and even using an open air filter lid can cause the MAF to under report airflow, but what about what is behind the MAF? I have a 396 cid motor with a miniram, headers, AFR heads, etc. If everything is stock from the MAF forward, shouldn't the airflow be reported correctly (up until its limit) if the stock MAF tables and scalers are used? Or am I missing something here? I am having problems dialing in the tables correctly with my ported MAF. I respectfully ask to please hold the "Switch to MAP" comments.
Thanks,
Jason
Remember, a MAF reports air flow, in any direction. So an engine that has more reversion really can mess things up. Then to add insult to injury removong the fins screens, can aplify those errors. At this stage your just pasting things together. All you need to do is figure out a MAF that will work with set up, just wire in a LS1 MAF and something to translate the info and then you can approch what you don't want to hear.
-------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2001, 10:16 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mike89z:
I am trying to use the emulator that I bought but they gave no directions on our application. Has anyone used this thing???
If so whats the deal???
Karl, at Intronics is just now aware of the problem, noone has folloed thru on resolving what the problem is. I have the PP emulator right here, but haven't had enough laptops working at one time to run it on the ecm bench and see exactly what's wrong. If you want the instructions write me off list and I think I have em here still, That or Bill Gates does now LOL
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-20-2001, 06:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by P J Moran:
I've been reading all the posts regarding the now famous ARAP bin. I was under the impression that this was some "secret" image that "someone" managed to get their hands on and post on DIY-EFI. It supposedly contains some special tweaks made by GM engineers so that magazine test drivers got good results during comparisons, etc. I got the impression that this was NOT a stock image at all.
Now, I am reading about this ARAP memcal that you can buy from the dealer. There's a "Corvette" ARAP, etc. These posts suggest that the ARAP code is nothing really special, just has unique stock applications (sorta like an aluminum driveshaft, or 1LE brakes, etc).
What's the real deal? Are we talking about different ARAP's? What the hell does ARAP mean or stand for, anyway? I have ordered the $6E TDF file from TunerCat and am beginning to wonder which ARAP bin I need to start with...
BTW, for comparison purposes, which bin on DIY-EFI is the stock '89 bin?
The ARAP was th emost refined, and best performing of the GM oem chips. It was used in all the magazine cars put forth for evaluation.
If your running a MAF system car it's the best one to start with. This is from years of guys tinkering with em.....
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-20-2001, 06:02 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Wooten:
I need help from the masters,
I was @ the shop last night getting ready for the race this weekend & was talking with a buddy that has an 90 TPI, headers, no cat, flow masters, 24lb injectors (4 or 5K miles on the injectors), 100k miles on motor, 700R4.
the problem is that when he is decelerating the motor backfires through the exhaust. it reminds me of our old Chevy truck with cherry bombs on it. you are cruising along & let of the gas & as it goes Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr down, it pops through the exhaust.
this is what the decell fuel shut off is supposed to prevent, right?
Nope.
DFCO is an emissions/mileage thing.
Exhuast leaks can cause it.
Some engines do it when things are right. Keeping the chamber temp up helps with recovery throttle from overrun
this has not happened before he changed the injectors, and a few other things that i kind of shrugged of as not important.
I think that this is a leaking injector, any thoughts? & if so, how to prove? he does not have a pressure gauge, but I think that the answer is put a gauge on it. turn the key on. turn the key off. watch the gauge. my car holds pressure for 20 minutes down to 5 psig from 40. if his drops faster than that (& judging from the size of the flames) i am betting that it drops much faster than that.
BW
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-16-2001, 06:32 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Craig Moates:
I'd really like to hear from Bruce on this one...
The intake tract, and it's flow characteristics ain't totally linear, merging two air colums so they are exactly 50/50 is impossible. tinker with the MAF stuff some and you'll see what I mean.
You really need to write Bob Bailey at Bailey Eng., to make a FBody translator. They are just soo good.
But, it also gets to what is practical. For the price of a translator you could do the 730 conversion. An LT1 MAF is $99, and LS1 $259, plus the actual translator.
TWO WISHES LEFT LOL
------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-25-2001, 07:41 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by unknown_host:
I have a question about the use of chips w/ q-jets in 82's. i have an 82, and i am going to be replacing my 305 w/ a 350, and the carb and stuff to non emmissions. does this chip control anything else i should be worried about changing it out for, such as tranny or what not? thanks
There are numerous items the ecm controls, most importantly the timing.
Get ahold of the ZZZ engine installation manual, and just use the parts and prom they recommend. Those are without a doubt the best bits I've been able to find on a CCC carb set up.
--------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 02:05 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Has anybody ever used a MAF computer with sensor (duh) on a TBI setup?
Thought about it.
But, the issue of MAF *lag* and being a wet manifold just seems like too much to overcome. Least as far as any of the C3 ecms.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 03:10 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BLACK Z:
I also have a 86, I was just wondering which i should use, they are all for the same computer, 2 are for 1 kind of 5 speed and the other 2 are for another. And I beleive they are all for carbed cars. I am going to order one from a company but they need the code and I need top know which chip so I can give them the code. Thanks
Forget the aftermarket stuff. I tried them all some years ago.
The ZZZ retrofit electronics are what you want, they use a particular ecm knock sensor and prom.
Then get Doug Roes Q-Jet book, and then you can get the carb right...
There is a bunch of HP to be found in optimizing the secondary air door opening, needles and hangers.
Also, need to be able to accurately measure performance, even a stop watch. They are really picky.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2001, 08:20 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 88 GTA:
This may be more trouble than it's worth, but I'm just curious if anyone else has thought of this.
Instead of us MAF guys upgrading to SD, why not upgrade to a '94 or '95 LT1 computer? This PCM uses the majority of the same sensors as ours did. The three main areas that would cause problems (that I can think of) are:
1. Different MAF - easily solveable by buying one from a junkyard, or the aftermarket.
2. MAP sensor - This isn't any different than upgrading to SD anyway, personally I'd see if I could get a used SD plenum so I could have it mount on there and look factory.
3. Opti-spark - This is the one problem I'm not sure how to remedy. Does it output, use the same kind of data that our computer controlled distributors do? Can anyone think of a way to make them interface properly?
Overall, if it wasn't for the Opti issue I think it would be an easy swap. And if it could be done we'd have the added benefits of sequential fuel injection, plus the part throttle driveability of a MAF car (with the benefits of the newer 512 g/s type) and the WOT capabilities of a SD car. And I think there is much more flexibility when it comes to tuning the LT1 PCM too.
Anyway, this is just an idea I've been juggling around in my twisted little mind for a while. Thoughts anyone?
Sorry but that's already been looked at. The Optispark queers the whole deal. Also, takes out the SEFI when you take that out, unless you reengineer some sensors.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2001, 03:10 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
There was an optispark eliminator from Electromotive. I think it uses a crank trigger wheel and some black boxes.
Their unit was on the market then off the market then on the market, I'm not sure if it's even available now, but was $$$.
Also, Bailey eng., makes a LS1 CNP ignition set up for the optispark, FWIW.
I quess I should have qualified the earlier statement with, you can do anything, just takes time and money. I still don't see any real practical affordable DIYer way of doing it.
While so many folks get tied up in this on the fly stuff, you never do enough note taking, and OTF just makes all the easier to miss what the engine is telling ya
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 02:58 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by kaosracing-tx:
My first thought is sequential injection is not necessarily a benefit.
Anyone?
When you start running large injectors it's a huge advantage. On my little 231 I'm running about 1.8 msec idle PWs, with 55#/hr injectors. Trying to get them to run at .9 msec would be a headache since they get erratic at 1.2.... Without hardly much effort guys are running 72s on the 231s.
(ie., 231 GN that is)
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 03:03 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 88 GTA:
How does taking out the Opti take out the SFI? I know that the Opti uses an encoder wheel to get RPM and crank angle, is this the main setback? If so couldn't we just figure out a way to adapt the encoder wheel into out distributor maybe?
The optispark has a high and a low resolition part to it, the low resolution part tells which cylinder is next to fire. Unlike the old SEFI that might take 2 revolutions to synch the SEFI the optispark does it in 1/4 of a crank revolution.
It has 360 slots in it. It's an amazing little disc. Also, spaced out in it is 8 other slots corresponding to 1-8 of the other slots so that the ecm can count both at once to figure out the next cylinder to fire.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2001, 11:16 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I just noticed that my truck has a MAF and a MAP. Do the newer ECM's use both and for what reason?
Jason
Each have their own strong points. Done right, the MAF will supply a slightly more accurate steady state reading then the MAP. The intake tract on a MAF does some signal dampening, and prevents some reversion errors. The MAP allows for much better metering suring sudden transistions. the MAP is always prone to some (small with stock cams) reversion errors
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2001, 08:22 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
8746 doesn't have a built on fan switch and I was thinking about making one. The easiest way I could think is to use the EGR on/off temps AND the EGR on/off speeds. I'd disable the EGR code from being displayed in as an SES and change all the values it effects to zero. Does anybody see any problems with this? I think it's a cool idea considering a lot of us are just disabling it and not doing anything with it. Please let me know your thoughts and other options I could explore. I think I'm really upset that the TPI guys got the ecm controlled fan switch built on and us TBI guys get the crappy in block sensor . I know I'm new at this stuff so if this is really stupid please let me know.
Get a 87 GN Rad Fan switch (closes at 210dF) and have the best available..
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-27-2001, 09:49 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
Here is what I KNOW:
1)Learn control is OFF in open loop mode.
2)Learn control is OFF during WOT.
BLM's and Integrator are locked at 128 when learn control is OFF. I think this is normal. But the O2 volts were still fluctuating (in closed loop). So, when NOT in the above modes, what would cause learn control to go off? Highwaymode? I don't think I was in highway mode, since my O2 volts were still bouncing, and mostly on the rich side.
A soft harware failure can do that, ie bad MAF. Some failures are marginal and not serious enough to turn on the SES light.
-----------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2001, 11:08 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Finially the minirammed 396 in the 89 Vette is runnign good. No issues with backfires and off idle hesitations. Still need to do some WOT tests on a local dyno with a wide band O2. PE is enabled at 40% throttle and block learns are all near 128. It's still a little rough when the throttle is cracked the slightest it can be phyically opened when in first gear. Around 20 gms/sec flow, its rich then shows lean with a little sputtering and then its ok. The whole event is less than 2 seconds but its there. If I richen the MAF table 1 a little on the tail end the block learns go down. I understand that AE fuel is only activated when there is a 4% change in throttle so I guess maybe i have some funky airflow at those very low air speeds.
OK. Now that the car is fun to drive and I'm happy with it. I want to consider the benifits of speed density. Are MAP systems easier to tune part throttle non PE low airflows? I heard that MAF cars are better for idle stabiliy and off idle response. Is this false? What do I gain from speed density? If I have to give up my MPG average and range funtions, I want something in return. Also what memcal do I need for a 7730 ECM
Thanks
MAF are much better ar slow transistions and steady state conditions. The reason being the lag time due to the wire/film in the sensor lagging behind the actual airflow. The MAP is much faster in response.
To me the VE table is a hellva lot easier to work with.
If you were to tiker with the MAF scalers you'd probably get rid of that oddness.
Might try takin a lil timing out, or ramp it out quicker in the Stumble area
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2001, 11:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
If I pick up a manual jet memcal as a holder for my EPROM does it matter if I have an auto tranny? I just want to use the aftermarket memcal for ease of removing the PROM. I guess I am wondering if the limp mode would be specific to the transmission type and/or affected by the type of memcal installed.
This is for a memcal for the 165 ECM, 1989 model year chip.
James
As an educated quess I wouldn't worry about that.
The default for limp home mode on a 165 is Alpha-N, and a very course calibration, but just so happens to be really good in some 165 applications.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-27-2001, 01:50 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73:
I'm trying to find out if it's possible to run twin 2bbl TBI units - the '7747 isn't an option, as Grumpy has proven that the injectors start to cut out at 3k RPM. I seem to remember someone using a TPI computer to run a TBI unit.. or do I have it backwards?
Anyway, is it possible to run a 4 injector setup off of a TPI computer?
Ken
Some guys claim to have run the dual TB TBIs by wiring the injectors in series parrarel. One vendor even sells a chip for doing that, I bought the *magic* chip, and it was just a stock 8D bin.
So in closing there are some P+H TPI 4 cyc applications, but no 4 P+H TBI ecms.
TPI P+Hs are 2.4 ohms
TBI P+Hs are 1.2 ohms
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 03:26 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
My setup is wired in series. Not series-parallel.
P+H is peak and hold.
Slipped a gear and was thinking 730 for a moment,
How well does yours run?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 03:28 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
[quote]Originally posted by Grumpy:
[b] Slipped a gear and was thinking 730 for a moment,
Arrgh, he was asking about a TPI computer, and to run a TPI ecm I was right about the wiring.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2001, 11:23 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
I dont think he did them in parallel... they wont fire at all with the TBI ecm that way. Maybe he did them in series-parallel. Grumpy?
This link might also be worth a look:
http://www.thirdgen.org/gmecm/file6235.txt
I can't say that I've seen any of those symptoms but havent specificly tried to test them. I can say this for certain, it works fine at low bat voltage.
It runs / drives at least as well as a carb but not as good as it could. I've done no eprom work on it yet... its running an ok but less than perfect howell custom chip.
I've tried series and series parallel on 730s, 749s, and 747s.
I've also smoked the 730s trying this.
None gave staisfactory results in my opinion.
What happens on a injecotr diver failure from this stuff is that the injectors get slower to react to rpm changes, and *sound* funny.
The overheating from over loading the injectors happens faster at higher rpm.
YMMV
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-03-2001, 09:20 PM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Saturated Injectors 12-16 ohms
Peak and Hold TPI 2.4
Peak and hold TBI 1.2
You can get by with some honkin Power MOSFETS, thou, I'd be prepared for some failures.
Now,
Saturated suggested operatin times 2-10 msec
Peak and Hold 1-5 msec
Next info is injectors firing strategy, and then min tmes at idle.
The big P+H TBI injectors can get *erratic, and or none linear* at short PWs.
The 747 fires the injectors alternatively on each ignition pulse.
The others once per revolution.
A vacumm referenced FPR might help in this
HTH
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-03-2001, 09:46 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by John Boy:
I just finished building the one from www.zws.com it wasn't too hard but I haven't tried it yet.
to those who have built their own programmer are the heatsinks on the 7805 voltage regulators supposed to get extremely hot to the touch?
No, but this is from other projects.
You should be able to hang onto it.
heat sinks need mass and area
Does it use a 10 mfd cap on the out?
I generally put a .1 cap on both sides of one, and then a 10 on the circuit side.
-------------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-16-2001, 02:31 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
With PE spark advance set to zero, I'm running 32 degrees at 3600 and 192 LV8 up with no knock. Since WOT runs are going to kill me or get me thrown in jail going 125 all the time, I thought I'd ask what other people think rather than increasing it one degree at time. Is not 36 degrees usually the best lead for NA motors if there is no knock?
36d is for like 76cc chamber. In a word it's just so large that it takes alot of timing for burning to get done. With 58cc AL heads 28d can work just perfectly.
General statements of x-y- or Z is what the magazine jerks use. They are still hyping info from flat head ford days, when 60 Octane gas was used.
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-16-2001, 02:33 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by derrel:
1st post! Has anybody out there had any experience with the Haltech GM replacement ECM that allows laptop programing?
I'm an ex owner of one. Tech support here in the states was lacking. It's an australian unit. DIY-EFI probably has some current users
-------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-16-2001, 06:23 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Saw on a website how to caclulate VE if you know the peak horsepower and RPM. My motor on a dyno made 400HP at 5500 RPM. So that's
(400*792001.6)/(29.92*10.75*396*5500)=.45
Where 29.92 is pressure (for arguments sake)
10.75 is compression
396 is cubic inches
5500 is RPM at peak HP
Then I calculate theoretical CFM
396*5500/3464 = 628 CFM
Then I calculate Actual CFM
(396*5500*.45)/3464 = 283 CFM
So if I read this right, my engine only needs 283 CFM of air to make 400 horsepower at 5500 RPM?
What is the normal VE of an EFI small block. I feel as though I should be making more like 480HP at 5500 RPM.
What gives?
VEs can run from the 80s to 150s.
Unless you doing the measuring during the test your just guessing and the numbers may or maynot make sense.
If you asking about air consumption, you can make 1 HP/1.3 CFM of air.
Just trust the stop watch, and tune to what the engine wants
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-17-2001, 05:50 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by wiggy'sIROC:
Would there be any purpose in me investing the money into this equipment to burn PROMS for a carb'd computer? Probably not but you guys know more than me. I am just not sure on how much tuning could be done for my setup.
Thanks!
Mark
Get the manual from the original ZZZ retrofit, and just use the ecm prom ESC stuff from that. The rest is in Doug Roe's Q Jet Book.
---------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-17-2001, 05:58 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Yelofvr:
Hi All:
I am in the process of tuning in my 383 TPI with no egr. I am on my 9th chip burn and am finding that with no EGR the motor does not like any additional advance as you decrease load. I knew of this phenomenon, but didnt realize how significant the effect of no egr was. My motor is built with a small 204/214@050 cam with 112 lobe separation with 5 deg advance so I have VERY good low rpm cylinder filling due to early intake valve closing. I started with a stock 350 camaro speed density spark table and have been steadily taking out advance in the part throttle region. As an example, at 50 kPa 1800rpm the stock camaro table has about 28 deg advance and I am currently using 17deg and getting some knock retard. If you look at the 1800rpm line on the Camaro table when you go from 100kPa to 50 kPa the advance increases by 20 deg!! In my motor, the advance increases just a few degrees. I know this where the motor wants to be as performance gets better and better everytime I take a few more degrees out. My motor specs are: stock TB, ported plenum, stock runners, ported factory base, Edel RPM alum cylinder heads, 9.6:1 KB HypEu pistons, 5.7" rods, GM 400 crank. THis motor may seem mild to some, but it is in a 79 Jeep CJ7 which sees alot of offroad use so I wanted strong low end torque(which I have!!!)
Thanks for any inputs you fellow tuners may have!!
The engine will always tell you what it wants, just go with that. Never try to tune to numbers that you want.
Might be needing some addition fuel. You have to work things back and forth.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-17-2001, 11:21 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by branz28:
This might be a little off topic for this board but i figured i'd get a better response here. Anyway, Is there such a thing as DIS or some kind of non-distrib. ignition system for our cars? Nothing that i'd try but i was just curious if there was such a thing and what it looked like.
LT5 vettes used a DIS at $700 for the module kinda expensive.
Northstars have a DIS, but lots of machining.
Electromotive does from time to time make a LT1 to DIS kit.
LS1 CNP closest to being resonably doable, but at $40 per coil adds up.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-18-2001, 08:52 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
I take it that they come on, in closed loop.
They are used all the time. That's how the engine estimates the engine's air consumption, and then meters the fuel accordingly.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-18-2001, 08:58 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
My 24lbers where running me a little lean.
The next day I changed to some 30lbers and put a msd 6al on.
I adjusted my chip to 30lbers. Crunk her up and she did fine, except once in closed loop if I do a quick rev she will blow smoke and quit. Doesn't smoke any other time. It's like it's overloading with gas right at the start and isn't burning all of it. (Is there any way to adjust that?)
On the o2 meter she's showing about 850mV at WOT throttle.
It's not using oil, or water...only smokes at first wot throttle. Started right after I changed to 30lb and msd.
I'm running the 89 ARAP bin.
appreciate your time....
There is a cranking *prime* correction, but I'd try moving the injector constant a little first, if with the 24s things were better
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-18-2001, 08:54 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
In talking with another person that converted their 89 Vette to SD, he mounred the MAP under the dash and just ran a hard line to it. Claims he has no problems. Does it matter where the MAP is relation to the Vacuum source? Common sense tells me to place it as close to the soruce as possible. I searched the archives but found nothing on th esubject.
The greater the volume of air in the connecting lines the more dampened the signal. Far better to run short small diameter line.
------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-17-2001, 11:23 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
The limp home chip in the 7747 is not programable. It is a resistor network. There are different chips (calpaks) for the differnt size engines the 7747 was used on.
The one in the 8746 is soldered to the board I believe.
Only 2 netres for the 747.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-19-2001, 08:03 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
I assume those two would be V6 and V8. That makes me think the limp home cal for the 747 is fairly rough. Seeing how the same calpak is used for the 305, 350 and 454 apparently.
It's limp home mode, yep, hopefully enough to get you home and that's about it.
747 was a first generation computer so it's a no bells or whistles item..
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-19-2001, 09:55 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by blak92!:
too lean? O2 values are between 100-200 mv also. Timing will not advance past 25 degrees with slight load in neutral.
A ZZ4 cam, extruded MAF TPI with TF 23 heads. 19lb injectors. This truck can idle but any load (in gear only) causes some backfiring. I know that the fuel delivery with a stock 305 chip and 19lb injectors is not nearly enough fuel delivery.
Base timing is set at 8 degrees and idle at 750 (very smooth idle). Any input?
You've answered your own guestions.
Base timing at 8 is fine.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-16-2001, 02:49 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87Z-ya:
[b]If you really want to make it run like it should and have good street manners save up for a speed pro. There is no substitute for actual a/f readings with a wb O/2. You can have a near perfect program in a couple of days.
[b]
Tell me what one item a SP does that a gm doesn't. The WB is just a crutch. Or would you care to explain to how having it relates to an AE problem.
11.4 or 11.8 doesn't make a tinkers damn, those are numbers for humans. The engine responds best to what makes it happy.
Pulling some timing out faster for the transistion (to WOT) might help. Especially if at near the stall speed of the converter.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-16-2001, 02:58 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Neil:
I have been attempting to tune my MAF/MRIII system but I am having issues, much like those that have already been mentioned, i.e., backfire through the intake, and poor part throttle driveability. I managed to get rid of the intake backfire by adding a hell of alot of initial timing (approx 18deg.), of course I am not attempting any WOT runs for now!
How can I increase the "pump shot" to prevent this lean backfire and possibly set the initial timing back to 10-12 deg.? I have the $32B code and there don't seem to be any AE tables specifically, I have BPW fuel vs. Load, Open loop F/A ratio%change vs Load and Open loop F/A ratio%change vs. coolant temp tables. These are AE essentially aren't they?
89 vette if you happen to read this, I would really appreciate your input since it seems that you have already dealt with this problem.
Thanks for your help!
18d ain't excessive, some cars do well at 24.
Might try some more fuel pressure.
If you can find a set of 30#/hr GN injectors might try them.
Also, a LONG, intake tract pre TB might help. they aren't as performance robbing as you might think.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-17-2001, 05:48 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87Z-ya:
one item a SP does that a gm doesn't. The WB is just a crutch. Or would you care to explain to how having it relates to an AE problem.
11.4 or 11.8 doesn't make a tinkers damn, those are numbers for humans. The engine responds best to what makes it happy.
Pulling some timing out faster for the transistion (to WOT) might help. Especially
if at near the stall speed of the converter.
Show me one 165 ecm that has a ae vs tps table? Yes I know your beloved 730 has it, but who wants to burn 200 chips to get the tip in right for a miniram? If you have lots of time and no money, than yea stick with a gm ecm. I dont see how a Wb o2 can be a crutch?? If anything its a perfect aid and time saver. Not flaming you but the speed pro is one of the best deals out there. If you have even ore money go with a motec. Tell me a gm ecm that even comes close.
[This message has been edited by 87Z-ya (edited May 17, 2001).][/b][/quote]
A 165 set up as a 808 or a 730 will match em. Have you noticed tuning has been around long before WB O2s and Knock sensors?. It measuring performance that matters. A 11.8 AFR is meaningless if the engine runs best at 12.5. You have to hunt either way to find where the engine runs best.
Where's the lean cruise in the SP or Motec?.
No where in the US are either legal in a street car.
It takes 200 chips for someone to get clear on what they are REALLY doing, as well as that many changes with a SP. Your kidding yourself, if you think you can do a chip in 50 tries and be perfect.
Look for the timing offsets in the aftermarkets when using with a crank reluctor sensor.
Try and find a SP on a Sat Night.
Have you even read the mission statement of SP?
L8r
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-20-2001, 10:25 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89BlwnRs:
I have an 89 Camaro and I'm getting ready to install new Vortec heads and a Vortec intake. For monetary reasons, I don't have the money for a new cam, or the equipment to burn my own chip. I was wondering how well the O2 sensor will compensate for the increase in air flow coming into the engine. Obviously, the O2 sensor will be reporting a lean condition to the computer, but how adjustable is the system? Obviously if it was infinetaly adjustable and the O2 could almost reprogram the fuel tables etc, then a custom chip would never be necessary.
Will the stock chip, or a JET Stage II chip that I have also be able to deal with these changes? If not, would raising the fuel pressure or adding bigger injectors help compensate. I have a theory that if O2 sensor can only offer limited adjustability, then the fuel pressure could be raised, or bigger injectors added so that the correction needed to be made by the O2 sensor would be with-in it's means.
Any help that can be offered on this topic is greatly appreciated.
I already have headers and a cat-back, and the Vortec heads and intake should be coming within two weeks.
Jason
Your in serious trouble.
While the fuel might be fudgibly close, I'd venture a guess that the timing will be ridiculously off. All the newer stuff I know of are using small combustion chambers, and fast burn designs, both of which run best at 26-28 degrees rather then the Normal of 32-36.
My best advise is hold off on installing the heads, and get the prom burning stuff. The try some experimenting with your stock set up.
The prom stuff will be the best money you ever spent
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 01:10 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 88 GTA:
Can anyone tell me what the three different stall saver thresholds in the $6E code are? And also what the stall saver disable threshold does as well? Thanks.
;-----------------------------------
; STALL SAVER SA PARANS
;-----------------------------------
LC024: FCB 24 ; 300 RPM Stall save lo limit
LC025: FCB 24 ; 300 RPM limit
LC026: FCB 44 ; 550 RPM
LC027: FCB 24 ; IF > 300 RPM DISABEL STALL SAVER
LC028: FCB 32 ; ADD TO SA BLEND
;------------------------------------
I didn't read thru the code part, but under the tables switches seettings this is all I see.
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2001, 07:04 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steves ZZ5:
Okay, here's the deal. As some of you know, I have a Miniram equipped ZZ4 with AFR195's and a LT4 "HotCam". The computer is a Speed Density 7730.
I seem to have a problem with my MAP semsor, but I'd like to know for sure if it's either hardware related, or due to a variable in my PROM that needs to be adjusted.
No matter what I do, (regular driving, moderate throttle, or all out WOT), I can't seem to register anything on Diacom above 29kpa. All other aspects of the MAP seem to be in line, I idle fine with about 15-16Kpa. I don't get any SES lights either.
The MAP is practically brand new with only 1400 miles on it. I don't seem to really have any driveability problems per se, but it might just be that I'm used to the way it acts since it's probably been this way since day one.
So, my question is.....Does it look like a faulty MAP, or maybe something that needs to be changed when I burn another EEPROM? Check out the 1/4 run that I recorded on Diacom, and you'll see what I mean.
Thanks for any input guys.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...nce=0&res=high
K/Pa or inches Mercury
looks like you might be set at inches of merc.
If that's K/Pa then something is wrong.
Maybe grounded improperly, check that it has 5v to it, and if you did some custom wiring the grounds and power fort the TPS MAP and others are meant to be wired and grounded in a very specific fashion.
I have a 1984 MAP that I'm still using
thou some serious backfires can bust the guts in one
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 01:18 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ChevelleCLM:
I am using the 747 Computer, and using a stock 350 chip with the EGR disabled. When the vehicle is first started up from dead cold, it runs great, but about the time when it is warmed up all the way, it starts to bog when I accelerate. It bogs from about 3kRPM to about 3.7kRPM. After it gets past the bog, and starts running right again, it will break the tires loose. Anyone got any ideas? A freind keeps telling me it is due to FP, but I have messed with the regualtor, going from max output, to min output, to everywhere in between, and no difference in the situation. I would think if it can supply my motor with enough fuel for 6000RPM WOT operation, that FP would not be the cause for low throttle bog? any ideas?
You'll have to balance things real well to get a TBI to pull cleanly to 6K.
You'll also need at leas the cop car injectors, and probably the BBC ones. Also a 2" butterfly TB.
From the sounds of your letter, I guestion do you have a chip burner?.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 01:44 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Is there a way to have a shift light if you have an auto? 8746. If there is, this could be nice instead of having to pay for a MSD shift light, I could build one. Or it could be an RPM activated switch. If this can be done, please tell me how. Thanks
You'd need a complete hac of that to find out. Often you can use say the charcoal canister purge for something like that. With each ecm it means reading thur the code and being somewhat clever.
there was a shift light diagram on one of the Japenese car lists
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 12:54 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
while I'm asking what about idle.....
When in closed loop it should toggle between less then .2v, and more then .6v.
The ecm is programmed to maintain an AVERAGE of 14.7, so it's always hunting bach and forth. The Catalytic Converter also needs this swinging of AFR to work.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2001, 10:50 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kyle F:
I have a Turbo Trans Am and just got the tubo link software for it. To those who don't know what it is it is a software package that allows you to connect a computer to your ALDL port and read all major sensors, RPM, MPH and boost in real time. Also it can record runs up to 10 minutes long. This is great allows you to see if your sensors are reading correctly, adjust your fuel pressure for optimum performance, and also reads error coades and tells you what they are all about.
This is something I would have killed to have had in my TPI car. Would have solved some major headaches I had.
I would imagine that this would also make burning your own PROMS a lot easier to.
The company that does it is TDS, the software is called Turbolink and is set up for the 86 ans Newer Turbo 3.8's and ealier versions converted over to the 86/87 computer and also some TBI Trucks.
Someone who is a lot more familiar with the computer systema than I, and who knows about chips and computer software should make a set up for TPI cars.
Either that or maybe we could send enough emails showing intrest to the guy who made turbo link to get him to write it for the TPI cars.
The cost was $150 for the basic software, plus anothe $50 for the optional boost sensing software.
The website is www.Turbolink.com
Actually you want Direct Scan.
It plugs into the edge card connector on the printed circiut board in the ecm. That way you can use whatever sampling rate you want rather then the slow ALDL stuff.
Also, has a nice digitial dash interface.
Course Diacom, and the new Turbo Shop stuff ain't at all bad.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2001, 02:17 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
Never mind... it's here at http://www.chuengineering.com/
Kinda spendy but if you have a turbo regal ecm it looks like the hot ticket!
--andrew
The problem with the 148 ecm (used both in the TTAs and GNs)is a slow ALDL refresh rate. DS operates independent of that.
BTW, I do have a GN, and use it all the time, for lesser cars I use diacom+.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 11:13 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
I can't figure this out. 350 TBI, 747, manual, no EGR installed. It idles at 750rpms and 40KPA. Slight lope, 214i/224e @ .050. Drives fairly well. Will accelerate in 6th gear at 1200 RPM.
Trouble is, it surges in some cases. I don't know if its timing related or fuel related.
For example, if you try to hold the engine @ 1600rpms in neutral, it will surge 200-300rpms. The INT is 128 and BLM is 108. That tells me it is alittle rich. I ran out of time so I didn't get to lean it out any farther.
The other thing that confuses me is the aftermarket chip that I replaced was so pig rich according to my nose and the INT/BLM, yet it still surged like I described.
Anyhow, I just don't know what to look at next. The cam isn't wild and it drives pretty nice, except this surge in neutral and the lower gears.
Any thought?
The 747 is the dead simplest of the ecm lot.
There is no nortmal operating condition where your going to be just holding 1,600 rpm in neutral, least that I know of.
Kinda like why is there no lean druise in the stock prom. Just cause they didn't need it. they had x amount of room and just did waht they had to do.
When the calibration guys are out doing a new calibration, they just call home to get patches, and do what they need to do. So some program just read funny, and some cars have weird glitches in them
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 12:58 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
from what I've always heard it's supposed to be close as possible to 5 volts at wot.
It's reading .47 volts at idle.
Well what you always have heard is from those that haven't current or accurate data.
Lots of the malfunctions statements for TPS errors start at like 4.2 for TPS being too high.
Drop your TPS back down to where it was.
if you have a scanner look at what 100% TPS you have at WOT, and I'll bet ya money it says 100%, the ecm is blind to anything over 100.
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2001, 10:58 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I'm converting to speed density now. Should I expect an immediate improvement over the $6E code as far as part throttle driveability or should I say better control on tuning? I'm at the point now where I'm considering Prozac weekly because I have all this money in a motor, I have driveabilty problems and lousy dyno numbers. Maybe I need a pat on the back and have everyone tell me better tuning days are ahead!
I made a personal commitment yesterday that I am going to finially get rid of that miniram for the super ram but there seems to be a lot of people running them with success on SD cars.
Thanks, and Trax if your listening, I'm really looking forward to the next series in 730 tuning!
Jason
One thing that just sweeps past folks is the mini has a VERY tiny plenum. Which is just the silliest thing to do. The Accel piece has about 360 cubic inches, and that's about what you want on a 350. Depending on usage more volume might even be better. FWIW I'm going to a 5L plenum on my lil 231 (Turbo).
Yes you'll have better luck with the 730. I've found the MAF systems to be difficult, to fuzz with the MAF stuff.
Be sure to use enough injector.
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 03:38 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by vrjg05:
I own a 1991 Z28 Camaro with a V8 305 Engine and I have problems when it comes to running my car over 110 mph. I think it is the governer, but it does not turn off it just stalls. Can you help me get rid of that? I was told it was the PROM but I went to the dealer and the workers told me that they could not change the factory setting? Please Help.
John
See at the top of the page where it say intro to prom burning, that's where you start
Dealerships aren't allowed to tamper with the chips. GM considers them just fine, since they meet all the EPA specs etc
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 01:22 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
[quote]Originally posted by james_fearn:
[b]here are what some tables look like:
http://www.geocities.com/ecmguy.geo/bruce/prog_101.html
there are drop-down menus that allow you to select what table/constant/etc that you want to see. I'm sure you can get a picture of what it looks like. It's just a simple straightforward program.
you can check out tunercat's site:
http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/tnr_desc.html
James
Never trust Bruce.
thou I;m not much better.
Doc Sleepy Bashfil and Dopey are the real brains of the outfit
LOL
Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 03:44 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by My90Iroc:
When you enter these values, how do you know if you've made an improvement or not? I mean, will a minor change in the number have a noticeable effect on how the motor runs? The values seem to just be based on rpm, but will the computer know how to make the engine run under a load, or will all of the values combined take care of under load?
Plug cuts
Testing
Driving
Some seat of the pants
Have a baseline and see which way your going,
maybe someone has a copy of of the Tuning.doc from the DIE_EFI they could send you (site is down at the moment)
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 03:52 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
I know you can uncheck the flag and dissable the light for the egr, but does that dissable the egr or just the light?
Grumpy stated in the past -to dissable it, tell it to come on at 255 degrees- I think that's thats right, don't hold me to it.
I'm running the 89 ARAP bin and it has a percent tps for it to come on and to cut off.
I don't see the temp wise. Would you be able to dissable it by the %tps.
Then again the flag may dissable it as I stated earlier.
Just making sure...
Never mind I found it....
I need to set both tps percentages to 0%
[This message has been edited by Z-BOSS (edited May 23, 2001).]
Disabling the flag just meand the ecm will ignore the results of the self diagnostic test, on a normal day. There are times that if you let the deivce run, that the ecm might sneeze and run the test and the ecm will accept the results and flag a malfunction. Not often but can be frustrating especially if it flashes a light and doesn't set a code
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 03:57 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by blowen90ta:
yes,i know this is a dumb question but i can only get it to run from disk,i've followed the manual and re booted into dos and then ran the a:hdsetup command,it seems to load the program (you can exit and then reenter)but then when you go to windows and then restart in dos it is gone? anyone know whats up?i also tryed to copy the disk as suggested and it will not copy.tryed the dos command diskcopy and the windows explorer copy(works but data is corrupted.
this is a registered copy and i'm following the instructions in rindas manual just appaers that i dont know how to get dos programs to work?
please help me so i can capture some data and start burning chips.
thanks
pete
ps i'm using a hp 450mhz pent 3 computer with win 98
[This message has been edited by blowen90ta (edited May 23, 2001).]
Diacom is not compatible with all machines, especially some of the faster ones. If you hunt around the syty list somewhere is a list of machines that are know not to be able to handle diacom.
All I ever recall doing is coping the files to the HDD. No install.
Then just run it from explorer.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 03:34 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
while I'm cruising if I let off my gas from about 45mph and coast on down it leans out.
It's reading about 50-150mV.
do I need to change the maf tables to correct this condition..
DFCO
Deccleration Fuel Cut Off
It's a mileage thing
Depending on cal., there maybe maybe parameters to change that if you want, but for other then anti-lag with a turbo no real reason. Often a stall can occur for a high dec., without DFCO.
What you wan to do IMO, is drop the timing way down during over run. ie 30 K/Pa, and then have your regular cruise timing start at 40.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 10:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
I have a 88 Camaro 350 with vette heads and SLP headers, is the ARAP bin a good choice for me? Or should I start with a different bin?
The ARAP is the **best** of the cals to start with
On those heads you'll find best power at like 26-28 degrees timing. They also like alot of timing at cruise mode.
Being able to get best power with that little advance is a very good thing. You want best the least timing, forget the more the better stuff
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 10:31 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by camaro6spd:
How hard it this, I am thinking about putting on a RamJet and most people say that it is hard to do it with MAF and I should GO SD. I would rather stick with MAF but if it is that hard I will do with SD.
Go SD.
BTW, the last I heard the Ramjets used the MEFI, and MAP (SD).
The best use both, but the later pcms aren't compatable with distributor ignitions.
Wire up a 1227730 ecm, and go for it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-19-2001, 09:35 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
The problem: If I set the idle to ~850 warm and in park, the IAC is at 0.
So, with the cam and heads, can I reach a happy medium with the idle - where the IAC is never fully open or closed so it can respond to changes like turning the A/C on?
I typically use 0 as a hot in gear IAC count. I also, set the IAC max posistions to their min., so that it doesn't try to ovecomp for things.
Also, use the smallest Alt pulley I can find, the voltage correction is nothing to ignore. A good alter., battery and wirng are a must.
Cammed, MAF, and just a 231 I have a dead smooth idle, and no IAC caused problems, with full lock steering or in / out of gear corrections.
Remember to do what the engine wants, not what you think it needs. Again 0 IAC is fine
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-20-2001, 01:46 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
[quote]Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
[b]I've been shooting for 0 IAC, but when I kick the A/C on, IAC goes wide open.
Wide open is like a 100+ IAC count. If it's doing that your definetly hitting the stall saver.
Otherwise, it opens a little bit on a loaded in gear idle.
I was incomplete in my last post - Why does the A/C cause the commanded idle to jump?
The A/C draw several HP at idle, and percentage wise for load that is alot, so you have to add some air, to keep from stalling the motor. Might hunt around your hac ans see if there is a A/C IAC adder number.
Also, how can I keep the in gear and park idles nearer in rpm? Timing?
There are commanded idle speeds for both. Just need to edit things.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 01:49 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
I'm down to the VSS, Map sensor (I'll be hijacking the signal wire from the MAF, and splicing into the TPS for the MAP +5 volts reference and ground.), and the knock sensor change. I'm waiting on some info on the VSS wires to make sure I'm getting the correct signal to the correct place. Should be finished this week!
Careful,
you just can't mix and match power and grounds on the 730. the way they share power is very specific, and if you get it wrong will take lots of time to sort thru. Do the 5v and ground sensor stuff exactly as the book shows. EXACTLY
I had one that another guy did that took me days to figure out, was a real PITA.
Had a 747 car that just never was quiet right that was also the same thing
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2001, 01:01 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Fast Iroc-Z:
I was thinking of puting a chip on my car soon. I have Random Technology exhaust, and i want to know what is the best chip. I was leaning twards the hypertech Stage 2, and puting in a 160 degree thermostat, and fan switch ANY SUGGESTIONS
Save your money and read up on chip burning.
Thou down, for the moment try reading the archives at DIY_EFI.
The only reason to run a 160dF is from using the flathead ford era hotrod technology.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-24-2001, 07:28 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ChevelleCLM:
OK so anyone got any good ideas on where I can pick up a programmer for cheap?
I've had real good luck with my Pocket Programmer. Maybe someone has their URL. 3 years old an probably just shy of 600 chips.
My Needhams started acting goofy at times with anything that was win95 or newer on it.
Thou it probably did a 1,000+ chips
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 07:03 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HybridZ:
Well I installed a 160 thermostat and a JET stage 2 chip for my 91 Z 350 ci. I installed the 160 thermo 2 months before the chip came. Made my car run a lot cooler. Now after installing the chip, it seems as if the chip makes my engine temperature run up faster than when I had just the 160 thermo. Why is that?
Also, I dont fee a difference in power. My gas mileage is still the same, about 180 miles to a full tank. So what do you guys think?
Any input would be helpful, thanks in advance.
Sounds like the aftermarket chip was junk.
The only way to get the right chip for your car is doing it yourself.
Why do you think Holleys have replaceable jets?.
No two cars are exactly the same, same idea applies to chips, there are no universal answers
The 160dF Thermostat is from Magazines, and the days of the flat head fords, and 60 Octane gas. With the millions that the NASCAR teams spend in R+D they are just all wrong for runnning 190-210 engine temps., not bloody likey
Old fairy tales die hard.
Bottom line, get a 180-190 Thermostat, try and get you money back, and read up on doing your own chips.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 10:22 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by LBSZ28BLOWN:
I've been tuning for three or four months now.
I've programed 72 chips and got my tuning allmost perfect.
Timing tables, fuel tables,open loop tables, & the MAT tables from 10degC to 40degC.
I've been working on the PE tables and got them close but I noticed somthing odd today.
I made five WOT runs, each run I pulled 10psi at 5200 rpm.
on some runs my o2 was in the 850's and others the o2 was in the 800's.
After reveiwing the Data I notice that the FT cell was at 4 on some runs & 15 on others whats up with that.
Anybody have some thoughts on this.
Tuning by O2 voltage will bite you.
They are switching devices.
72 and perfect?.
Well, hang out a while and you'll see it takes alot more then that to get close to perfect. Bettter then stock I'll grant you but perfect takes lots of time and tinkering to find
Read the Plugs to see where you at, Mixture and Timing wise.
I fins it hard to beleive you got WOT right in 5 passes.
hate to be negative, just I think you missing alot.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-24-2001, 05:23 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by LBSZ28BLOWN:
at .800's O2
The injectors where staying at 11.4pws from 3200rpm up during the run in each gear.
At .850's O2
the injectors bounced from 11.8 to 12.4 pws in the same rpm band.
It appears that when the EMC switches the FT to cell 15 at WOT the engine leans a little.
when its at FT cell 4 the engine richens a little.
I'm going to do some plug reads tomarrow if time permits.
Not to promise anything, but send me a.gdf of each, and letme see what you got going your PW statements just aren't clear to me.
--------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-24-2001, 07:35 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by manitoufs:
I had been using Diacom-P on my Typhoon for quite a while. I don't use very much anymore because I am using Datamaster. I never tried it on my bone stock 92 Z-28 (5.0) until today. Here is my question.
The computer hooks up to the ecm and shows realistic data on the screen while collecting the data. When I go to read the file, the screen values are realistic. But when I try and graph some values, everything looks almost flat lined. The same file read by Datamaster shows DTC's all over the place and off the wall readings.
Any suggestions?
If I understand you right,
there are over 500 ALDL different displays of info. So using the datamaster to look at the Z's info will read odd.
The graph display in Diacom + can be odd appearing compared to some other software since the displays vary according to the max values, (Hmm or was that direct scan)
If after studing it more if it don't make sense send me a copy, and I'll try to find time to look at it
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 07:08 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by gta324:
What system is easiest to learn and program.
I have no experience with neither of them.
Easiest or best?.
Big difference.
Running really large Peak and Hold injectors, then you need DFI, anything less your wasting your money.
Oh, and try gettting a replacement, when on the road. For $40, I carry a spare ecm.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 08:26 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by RCR:
There's an old saying: "6 of one. 1/2 dozen of the other". It's all a matter of who you ask. Most on this board will say PROM burning because this is the PROM burning board. You just have to decide how you want to spend your money.
Oh really?. guess you haven't been following many threads.
This has been hashed over a million times, and there are times when it matters. As in you CAN'T run 8 Peak and Hold Injectors off of a stock ecm. Please read up on the subject matter before giving advise.
Getting to be like reading Popular Hot Rodding around here at times.
No flaming meant, just the pursuit of the truth.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 01:14 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by FastBroker:
Grumpy,
PLEASE explain to me how the Edelbrock TBI-to-MPFI conversion with the 7747 ECU drives 8 individual injectors?!?! Are they special low-impedance injectors or something??? What gives???
The are / were marelli injectors, and actually a rather special case in so far as a high impedance injector go, cause they operate rather well at short pulse widths.
Electrically 8, 16 ohm resistors work out to be about the same as 2, 1.2 ohm resistors.
You in theory and given some time get a TPI close using a 747 ala same as they did.
If you look at the edlebrock prom image they did so some accleration enrichment stuff that makes sense, ie less, and I think they were a couple other interesting tweaks, but been along time since I was studying them.
FWIW, If you're going port just use the 730. It's a great ecm, and lots of folks have had extremely good results.
If TBI then the 747.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 02:50 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by RCR:
Grumpy: Why so grumpy? You'll take notice that my post was two minutes after yours, so I was typing when you were posting. My comment had nothing to do with your post. I'll just leave now, it seems the experts are handling it. :shrug:
Your message was the same.
Inaccurate.
That's what makes me Grumpy.
If you had read more about the subject matter then you would know there are specific times when one has an advantage over the other. As a moderator, I woud expect you to at least try and set some min standard for accurate and timey info.. Well since since you've decided to leave, Bye....
---------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 06:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Is it a 7747 or not? It has a 5.7L TBI that is all I know. I want to be able to program a chip for him after I upgrade his intake and exhaust! Thanks
Not
It's a PCM
(has transmission controls)
747s stopped in 91.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-23-2001, 10:13 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
So there is no way for me to program a custom eprom?
????.
Get the pcm number and look at
www.tunercat.com
they support lots of the trucks
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-24-2001, 05:32 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Thanks guys. Sorry I didn't do more research myself, too lazy I guess. That and I was watching e-bay for a bid on some tools, had to bid at the last second to win .
Grumpy, can I be your apprentice or do you have any internships this summer? lol
I have 7 lil helpers here already, but ya might watch for the EFI POWOW. Will be in Aug sometime. This makes the 3 one, and the first 2 were pretty darn good in my book for the info factor
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 01:07 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by FastBroker:
I might even try to make that one. A chassis dyno nearby so we can evaluate before/after???
Dyno, hehe
Dyno....
Don't need no stinkin dynos.
I'll show ya my radio shack $35 in car timer, then ya can make one of you own.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-24-2001, 05:27 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by FormulaJoe:
Now, I have the Ram Jet 430 (LT4 Hotcam, fastburn heads, 30lb SVOs)in my project car right now. It is an 89 Formula originally an L98 MAF car.
Do I A) Have AS&M reprogram the MEFI computer ($450 including the addition of an O2 sensor) or
B) Hook up a 7730 ECM and burn proms?
I am assuming this 7730 ECM is a stock computer from a SD L98 car. Is this right?
How hard would it be to make this computer work with the ramjet harness?
Any help would be appreciated.
Before soending a dime at AS+M read up on carprom. Or how to lose $1100.
A 730 powered ramjet should work out nicely.
As far as I know Diacom has the only MEFI diagnostic stuff so har, and it's a seperate deal from the auto stuff they sell. MEFI is Marine EFI
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-26-2001, 03:33 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Yelofvr:
This should help reduce the intake pressure pulsing the Lt1 is known for.
What do you mean by this?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-26-2001, 01:53 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Aftermarket vs GM ecms, and injectors
First off there are very specific times when one is better then the other.
First off when your going to do anything to increase the fuel demand of the engine, you'll have to figure out how to satisfy that. If you want to double the HP of your engine, then you should think about doubling the size of the injectors. The GM code is set up for long term drivibility, and using the Bl limits to keep things happy. Trouble is as you get to 1.0 msec and less at idle you can start to have metering problems. Lowering the FP, and higher idle speed can help. Up until this point being oversized is no problem, and is actually easy to tune.
However, if you have use the .5#/HP BSFC formula for injector sizing, then your really either wanting too go with a aftermarket ecm, or spend lots of time fine tuning a gm ecm. When your right at the edge of the limits of the injector, your waking a slippery slope anyway. What an aftermarket ecm does is dumb down the system to make life easier on you.
If your at the 1.0 msec PW for idle, then life tends to get rough, because saturated injectors just operate so fast. So then the only next option is Peak and Hold injectors. They can operate well, down to like .5 msec PWs at idle. BUT, often can get a little erratic at those openings, or not be real linear.
Then comes price.
The aftermarkets are always more expensive then a GM. With a GM you can easily afford to carry a spare. The aftermarkets when they break can be real expensive to fix, and take several weeks.
WOT
One continually repeated claim is that with a aftermarket WOT is easier to set. Nope, you have to do exactly the same amount of testing to find best AFR at WOT reguardless of what ecm, you're using. What is easier (somewhat) is that WOT can be more divourced so it's easy to think about. The power in EFI is knowledge, not the software, or interface. You have to figure out how your system works. The aftermarket try and keep it simple as possible, but in simplity comes problems. So far I haven't seen a lean cruise mode aftermarket ecm. Or highway spark.
What amazes me is how folks will compare a MAF oem system to an aftermarket and proclaim the aftermarket better. Well to date I haven't seen an aftermarket MAF ecm, so that kind sheds a new light on things.
Up unitl you run out of injector PW at idle there is no advantage in running an aftermarket. Even then different injector drivers can be installed in some oem ecms, and raise the limit to when you need an aftermarket ecm.
One neat trick some of the aftermarkets do is actually batch fire the injectors. So that they have the same operating times as a SEFI unit. What some clever person needs to do is take the output of a say a 730 and use a flip flop to two new drivers, and you'd have the same thing, and about never need to go aftermarket. Heck use two big Power MOSFETs, and you could run Peak and Hold injectors, and have a swell time.
Course that would lead to nulling out lots of the code, and you could have exactly the code, and parameters you want.
I base the above on having actually studied the Accel, Motec, Electromotive, Haltech, and some obscure systems software/ editing material.
The injector sizing info., I've actually done on my own cars, and many test miles on calibrating and testin them.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-19-2001, 05:42 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick13:
Originally it was an 89 305 TPI. Thanks!
I guess I'm confused by TRAXION's FAQ. Which of those is my "EPROM code"? -- $6E, 27C128, or 1227165?? Thanks again.
6E is the program mask number, ie how the tables are laid out
27C128 is the eprom type
1227165 is the ecm number
It's the Broadcast code number your lacking. If you can scan the ID number using a scan tool, there maybe help.
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-20-2001, 06:42 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick13:
And what if I don't have a scanner?
Did GM use several different EPROMs?
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 11:47 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick13:
I finally got around to digging the computer out of the dash again (been busy with work). I found 2 #s on the actual EPROM. The first, appears to be a serial number or part number -- 16133420 8839. The second (I think) is the EPROM code: Delco ANYX 9375. That's all I found on the chip itself. Is this right?
ANYX is the Broadcast Code for a 89 5.0 Man
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 03:15 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick13:
So 9375 is the EPROM code? (Sorry for all the dumb questions, and thanks for your help, btw).
I'm confused about your term eprom code.
The prom *Mask ID* describes which code is on the prom.
The *Broadcast code* tells what the eprom is calibrated for (application wise)
ECM, part no., that's just the part no. for the computer itself.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 04:38 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by lars92RS:
I've been having problems erasing these Eproms. I had no problems writing to them but they won't erase for nuthin! I looked at the number on the back it says D2732D the supplier is NEC. Now, I know that the difference between the 2732 and the 2732A is the Vpp but i have never heard of 2732D. Anyone got any ideas?
Lars
Ya, I got a few one time.
Wound up pitchin em.
Also, had problems with AMDs
--------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-20-2001, 10:32 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Ok,
I've spewed this a few times now. I've got the 30-40KPA and 50-60KPA values down pretty well... Engine idles at 58-61KPA. Now in order to get the higher values of the KPA ranges, what would i need to do. I've basically disabled the TPS threshold as Tim has, that way i never get into PE. I live in the flattest place on earth. I was discussing this with a friend and we MIGHT even put a hitch on my car and tow things around just so i can get some load on my car for tuning!
(seriously)
Anybody have any ideas at all?
One other thing, how drastic does the MAT change your values?, i have been reading that the weather does affect your tuning ALOT, earlier today(80degree/f) it was running, same chip later tonight it runs a little bit richer all around the band, thats pretty much normal right?
Brendan
Hahahaha,
I live by greenville,
anyway looks like you need to spend some time at the I70-75 interchange area. That's were I do some of my drivibility stuff.
MAT just covers things for temp., and while relocating it might help a little, I'd suggest leving where it is, and try more tuning.
Going from 60 to 100 K/Pa, you'll want to pull timing out, and in the VE tables add fuel.
Starting at like 2,400
58 cc heads drop the WOT timing down to 36-28 degrees
64 cc heads drop to 32-34
76 cc heads 34-36
THESE ARE JUST ROUGH NUMBERS
the intake valve closing point will have a huge effect on those numbers
At less then 2,400 you might even run negative numbers for timing depending on your converter and weight of car
HTH
----------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-25-2001, 10:16 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
MAF vs MAF, without the BS
Both accomplice the same thing.
There are some wifes's tales that continue to be repeated, hopefully some will die after this.
MAF:
Uses a heated wire, or foil that a is maintained at a constant temp., the amount of current used is an indicator of how much air is flowing past it.
MAP:
Uses a diapham, mounted as a strain guage in a Whetstone bridge, to generate a signal referenced to a vacuum. So any variance in pressure generates a variable voltage, as referenced to an absolute.
Both, with only compensate to limited degee for any programming errors. There is no better of the two for those errors, they both have a fixed range of BLMs.
The MAF system *tends* to be a little more forgiving in some mild applications because the sensor is remotely mounted, and hence mechanically dampened. Whereas the MAP is plumbed right to the plenum, so it sees any modifications with less dampening. The lack of dampening also means, more responsive, you'll never get the absolute throttle response of a MAP system with a MAF.
There will ALLOWS be some lag time when using a MAF sensor, because of the thermal lag in the actual sensing wire/foil. You can shrink the size of the sensor, like in the newer ones like the LT1 / LS1 but you can't eliminate it.
In a steady state condition the MAF will develope a better average signal then MAP. Again, it's about mounting, and dampening.
Since the MAF is pre TB, air filter ducting changes effect how it responds. Also, if major can throw off the MAF tables. removing the screens, does nothing but induce errors into the system. Sometimes they might help, sometimes might hurt. Sometimes help in one place and hurt in another. Best way to eliminate guessing what is going on is to leave them alone. If you look into a LT1/LS1 MAF you'll note two (well actually 3) sensors. 2 are mounted on opposite sides of an airflow, to help eliminate any sensing errors, these two are averaged. Now these are the state of the art ones, and GM has taken the time to make them this complex, might think about how much money that cost, all in an effort to get the sensing right.
MAF Math:
Grams/sec=CFM*.5663
1.3 CFM per 1 HP
.75 Grams/sec = 1 SAE HP
The stock MAF is rated at 255 grams/sec. If your engine consumes more air then that, your out of calibration resolution, not a good thing.
What you and others can do, is set the fuel for WOT, and then just run rich till you get to peak airflow. As a last resort, it's even a poor idea. I will grant that there are 9 sec GNs doing that, but I still don't see why folks do that when there are options available.
The ecm only knows what you tell it, and then uses that info to generate answers. You have to figure out the MAF scalers, or figure out the VE table. Personally the VE style of calibrations are a ton easier for me. The accuracy of any tune is how the fuel and timing are done in these areas. Both take time to get right.
Accleration enrichments.
Depends on calibration code, but the one huge difference is that the MAP system has a MAP correction for Accleration, meaning the code handles AE, and for the MAP systems corrects for actual LOAD. You just can't do that with MAF since it has that lag from the sensor. They both have a coolant temp, and TPS correction.
MAF sensors are always alot more expensive then MAP ones
Both can be fooled into errored readings from reversion. At lower throttle openings the MAF is just a tad better for not being in error as the MAPs.
Remember 20% throttle opening is exposing 70% of the air flow thru the TB. This explains why large Butterflies seem to be better, by the buttometer, and can actually cost performance. It's just at the lower openings they are flowing more air at the same opening so they seem **peppier**
Using the LT1 VE tables are a good starting point for many MAP systems, YMMV.
The only way to find out what the engine wants is testing, testing, testing testing testing. Information about what is really going on and how it applies take hours of work. Sometimes it's easier to build an ecm bench to get a grasp of what's going on.
Which is better?.
It all depends.
For response and WOT performance the MAP will win, when done right. If for no other reason then the restriction of the MAF sensor itself. MAP systems don't care about engine flow, so aren't displacement sensitive.
Just to confuse things thou, some newer systems use both, which can give the best of both worlds.
Final Answer
Final Answer
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 01:04 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
All great points Bruce. There is another difference, which is important if you are into modifying the actual code of the eproms.
With MAF, the BIN is basically full. There is hardly a free byte available. If you REALLY need to add some code or extend a table, you may find yourself having to yank out code that you either don't want, or are willing to sacrifice.
With MAP, the BIN is only 58% full, so you have plenty of room to add extra code or extend tables.
Of course, very few on this board are into Assembly Language Programming. But for us few anal guys that are, this is an important point.
You forgot to mention, that you're only taking about the 165 MAFs. There are other MAF programs that have empty areas.
If you want room to work then you'd want to use the 808 stuff. MAP, 165.
Also, as far as patches go, means being real clever, if you research all the various patches that can be added to the 148, it's amazing, anti-theft, stutter launching, recal for different MAFs, 128 locks at WOT. The 747 ones are limited but interesting.
But, the topic was comparing systems, not rewritting code.
For all the mention of rewritting code, as far as the 165s/730s there aren't any patches that have been completed or shared with the world in general so it's kinda mute anyway.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 08:03 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobalos:
Glenn,
I was thinin' about this last night as I was taking my new proms out to the work bench in the garage. Here is what i was thinking. I have just bought these bitchen 256K EE's, but have to trick it to load the 128K SyTy prom into it. but when i stick it into the ECM it runs no problem (well that is the plan anyway). if they use the same processore & the same prom. if i am into messin with the assembly language anyway, why not stick it into a 256K prom?
as you know i could not find my bit counter in the dark with both hands so, if I am out to lunch feel free to tell me to go back to my desk & leave the rest of the class alone.
BW
Just load the 128 image in twice. Lots of GMs even come that way.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 10:18 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Logically, the MAF 165 only wants the top half; it shouldn't give a hippo's hynie about what is on the bottom half. Yet some people are saying it does.
Go figure.
The problem, is that the code is a series of patchs. The drivibility folks start with a given code, and then go out driving, as they encounter a problem, they call home for a correction. If you read enough different programs, you can kinda get feel for what's going on. Anyway, mix that with non perfect voltage filtering, and some times things hiccup when running. So by have everything *addressed* and occupied, there is a much better chance for an instant recovery.
I've had stuff run perfect on the ecm bench, but come time to actually run it in a car it wouldn't act guite as expected. Now a days I generally have the battery charger running, just as a lets be sure item.
There are lots of things that get to well this should, shouldn't work, but do. The voltage spiking etc., are some serious issues
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 10:52 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
Is there any way to increase the ecm's 255g/sec limit. I was messing around with a table and the top few values were 255 and you could not increase the number. Is there a "max value" setting somewhere that you can change to get this? Is the ecm just not able to comprehend anything above 255, or is it just programming? How much can you hack this thing. I am very very new to programming, so be nice if any of my ?'s are off key.
The problem is the sensor.
Then once you change sensors, you have to translate whatever it's output is to something the ecm understands.
**ALL** you have to do is take like a LT1 or LS1 and make a translator so that the 165 ecm can use it.
I run a LS1 sesnor in a LT1 housing on my 87 GN by using a Translator. I can read to a tad over 500 grms/sec.. The translator is a very trick little unit.
The later MAFs are all relatively high freq., it's alot more complicated then what meets the eye.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2002, 09:30 AM #22
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by kvu
I have map reading on my maf car too.I think its for the egr.
LV8 or VE, both are interchangable depending on the math you want to do.
The ecm needs to figure VE to work out the EGR stuff (I think that's a universally true statement).
Some code has the programming in them for using either sensor.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 10:55 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
First off, I have read the tech article on this board. I am soon going to purchace the hardware/software to do this stuff.
Some Questions..
How do you hack the 255g/sec max value in the ecm?
I don't know about the stock MAF, but will the SU-145(Wells) MAF produce a larger value than 255g/sec. This MAF will flow somewhere in the 700-800CFM range.
Does the MAF send its data to the ecm as varying voltage or varying frequency?
I was reading through some other posts and noticed someone had mentioned that the MAF (165) ECM's prom is maxed out and can not hold any additional info. What is the deal with that.
Any other tips or advice you experienced guys can throw my way would greatly help.
There are several types of MAFs some use a voltage output some freq.
Might do some reading at diy-efi.org (gmecm area) tunercat.com, and syty.org
-----------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-22-2001, 04:34 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
The real basics
For quit some time, I've been getting mail about where to really begin with
EFI.
So here's my notes, and opinions on things. Your results my vary some, but
there is alot of time spent in accumulating this info.. If you wan to
haggle over it, that's fine, but I'm probably not going to be the one to
haggle with. Unlike the talking heads that write magazine articles, every
item of info here is from actual testing, and analysing results. Some
explainations are simplistic, since this isn't a design course. What
matters is what works.
Mixing the fuel:
Fuel is made into a reactionable state thru atomization, and or
vaporization. The net result is the same, but manifolding and the type of
EFI to maximize the results differ greatly.
Atomization:
In this case the fuel is mechanically shredded, into fine particles.
It's how carburetors and TBIs (to a large extent) both work. In the TBI
it's just the venturis, and emulsions tube jobs that are replaced with
Injectors and electrons. The carb has the atomization taking place in the
venturi, and the TBI has it taking place at the edges of the Butterfly.
It works out exactly the same for WOT and MPG. The two advantages are cold
starts, and fuel sloush. Both have *wet* manifolds, and for that reason
are, usually hard to compare back to back, but using a Cross Fire lower
manifold and a custom lid for a Q Jet, the results were the same as far as
in the test car running mid 13s, and 27 MPG. The down side is at WOT the
fuel just flows past the butterfly, with min atomiziing. So at higher
speeds, you have to use some vaporization to keep the fuel in a suspended
state. If you relly look at some of the TBI manifolds they are very clever
in what the do. ie., on some they take the heater water out of the back of
the manifold, so in warmer weather the coolant flow thru the manifold for
the heater is min., so in the winter the manifold runs alot warmer. What
I did was run without a heater valve, so that there was always some coolant
running to help vaporize the fuel. In order to make it most uniform in
temp., I did block off oil reaching it, with a lifter valley pan. Also,
ran a 180dF thermostat. This allowed for the best combo of cold hot, high
low rpm drivibility. Everything has it's trade offs.
The wet manifold has some issues that you want to consider. There is an
optimum range for air speed thru it. Too slow and the fuel falls out of
suspension, and too high, and it *sticks* to all the runners, where they
bend. If the manifold had not enough heat, or wrong plenum volume you can
also wind up with the fuel traveling in rivers along the base of the plenum.
These details are not to be ignored. First, thing most guys think is that
more air cleaner is better. Nope, it can drop the air velocity down low
enough that the fuel is puddling, and not in a good state for reacting in the chamber.
Vaporization:
This is where heat is used to evaporate the fuel so that it can be reactable with air in the combustion chamber. On your TPI type systems the fuel is just sprayed on the back of the intake valve (well kinda sorta near it) and then just waits around boiling til the valve opens. SEFI can really help this process at idle and low rpm, but very low in the rpm range the advantage is lost. So for a real HiPo engine it can help, that's about the only reason for it. In the real world of new car sales, it does
matter since they are selling millions of cars and each lil bit helps with CAFE etc., but in our world you'll not likely see any big difference, till you get to the large injector area.
With the injectors close to the port the manifold is rather dry, so air speed tends to be more flexible, since fuel falling out of suspension isn't such a big deal. BUT, what can be an issue is the runner tuning, to cover the low speed problem of not enough heat to really boil the fuel. So the
engineers made the compromise of using the runner lenght to really enhance
the low speed cylinder filling.
Also, turbo really like this, since at serious boost levels the air temp is elevated and boils the fuel nicey (all things being relative).
There is a real problem with TPI and vaporization at high rpm. The
later LT1s, LS1s, have really a well designed system, and in all honesty are
far better then the earlier TPIs. But, again, the TPIs have a fairly nice series of ecms that can be tuned to min., their short comings.
Matching Components:
Contrary to lots of info., the only hot set up involves testing what your
engine likes. No dyno, or part that looks right means much when the green
flag drops. Testing, testing, testing. Do what the engine tells you it
likes. On some extensive testing, I found a 2.25x14 K+N to be faster then
a 3x, or 4x, and that was optimizing the fuel and timing to within 1%, and
1degree.
If you want ram air, there are two considerations, the volume of the
ducts, and the actual air intake. The ducts seem to work best at equalling
the engine displacement. For it to be real ram air the intake must extend
forward of the sheetmetal by several inches, or the scoop several inches
above the hood line. The Mopar Chassis Book has some good notes on this.
Just as an honorable is cowl induction. I will alow the engine
compartment to vent hot air when standing still, and the as speed raises,
force air into the engine compartment. You can run into some weird cooling
problems, if you soon't understand that the cowl induction is great at
filling the low pressure area under the hood, and that mins airflow thru the
radiator.
Also, remember, that all the airflow bench flow testing is done steady
state, and that just doesn't happen in the real world. Lil airfoils and
such might show a gain on a flow bench and do nothing for an actual engine.
And at some time or another there is reversion, which can be a good thing or
at least managed, that Never shows on a flow bench.
Operating temps.:
No reason for running less then 180, and personally I get best results
with 190dF. Thing most people ignore is oil temps., and that has alot to
do with the actual piston temp....... Some claim better resistance to
detonation, well I can run 3d more timing then peak HP, in my turbo car, and
we'll just say it runs quick. Using a low temp thermostat to control oil
temps to some degree just don't make sense to me.
General Conclusions:
In stock form,
TBI, is for the lower rpm range engines.
TPI, does about the same, but has slightly better metering.
Modified,
They both can do a really grand job if you maximise their strong points,
and min the weaker points.
TBI, you want to use a well thought out manifold. Single plane is best.
You need to run some controlled amount of manifold heat, for High RPM
useage, since you lose the atomization advantage there. No real need in
trying to run a TBI off of a TPI ecm, BTDT. You want the faster pulsing
rates to help with the atomization.
TPI, bigger plenums, shorter runners (or at lest shared runners). You
want textured runners for the increase in surface area. Since they are
basically dry you can get by with a smaller runner manifold for the same HP
level as a TBI.
Detonation:
It occurs in the chamber. First thing to work on is getting the chamber
right. Min., it surface area, and for heavens sake radius the chamber to
cylinder head surface edges, just .01" or so but you should be able to rub
yourfinger all around the chamber and not draw blood...
Want to run 11:1 CR?, Fine, just be sure to have a late closing intake
valve.
The less timing needed the better, 76cc heads WOT 36idh degrees, 64s
34ish, 56 AL 28ish. Again the less the total timing for a given level of
HP the better. Plug gap can reduce the amount needed to, just it's hard on
ignition components.
Thinking:
If it works it works, ain't no more difficult then that.
Reading plugs is necessary, period. Like it or not, they are the eyes
into the combustion chamber.
Experimenting without a base line is just wasting gas.
Be honest with yourself.
Do what you can afford to do.
Don't think cause something worked on your car that it's a universal
truth.
If you think your going get recalibrating a car right for the first time
in 100-200 chips, your just wishing aloud. There are a million combinations
for what may work.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 04:10 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
There's been a few questions regarding tuning and I have been referring people to find this article. I just want to put it back to the top so people can easily find it and read it.
Be nice to set them off to the side somewhere, if that happens, please send the injector sizing one there.
Make ya a deal,
set those 2 off as a ***
and I'll do a final DFI vs GMECM, when and why, and a MAF vs MAP when and why.
Well, might be Doc Bashful and Sleepy to help
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-26-2001, 12:54 PM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
Somebody that knows more about airflow will have to explain why, but the best flow comes from a slightly rough surface. I've seen the actual flow bench test of the same heads polished and then roughened. The rough port produces less turbulence and more flow.
People tend to thnk of air as just a gas. Infact it acts just like water, just that it's about 1/600 as dense.
This is just for getting a mental picture of how air acts, and then you can draw your own conclusions.
Watch a large ship go thru the water, and how even with a sharp bow to cut thru the water builds up around the nose and then forms a wake. This is especially important for how the body goes thru air.
The air around the car is actually moving slower then the ground speed of the vehicle.
Now we can see that at various heights over a moving body, or air moving over something, the air speed changes.
With a slightly rough port, these layers aren't allowed to form up, and get as organized, so the faster moving air has a large diameter to move thru.
If you really want to get up to speed on the aero world, there are two big items super sonic, and subsonic, and they are totally differennt worlds. After reading some aircraft and rocket design books you can really see who in even F1 has done their homework. Specially if you read up on the stall regions of wings, aspect ratios, and dihedral, and cathedral wind design.
Like I mentioned above don't forget on the TPIs they are only sometimes dry flow.
I worked at a shop where we did porting, and people used to pay extra to slow their cars down for the polishing, I tell em all day long that it would cost em HP, and yet 99% of em wanted it done. Remember, the engine will tell you what works, it really is easy to tune, if you don't try to please yourself with what you're doing
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 03:44 PM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobalos:
Boy another class on fluid dynamics, & I thought i was done with that stuff when i left Nuke school . all's i want to do is to make my car faster than Joey up the street
Ya, but Joey reads alot.....LOL
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/19...i?page0001.gif
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-28-2001, 11:03 AM #21
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by manitoufs:
Great reading.
There is a strong tendency in the Syclone/Typhoon group to push for lower temps at any cost. Heat is thought of as the enemy. IA temps in the sub 100 deg. range are prized. The thought is - the lower the temps - the denser the air - more fuel can be utilized - more power is generated.
This philosophy leads to 160 deg. thermostats, more efficient CCHE's and heat exchangers. The lower the better. It sounds like there should be a target somewhere in the middle to maximize and maintain atomization. Is there a low point at which detonation can not be lowered? What have you found to be an optimal IA temp.
Do you have any thoughts on this? Is there a compromise position that will deliver the best power with enhanced long term reliability?
The 160dF thermostat is just old outdated info.. Period.
IAT has a great deal to do with the amount of timing you can run, and just a slight bit on fuel.
What folks often ignore is oil temp., and that has a huge effect on piston temp., You never want to let the oil temp get over 240dF.
If you read up on the Evans Cooling system stuff they go into great detail about how a cooling system actually works (not that I'm impressed with their system). ANyway, what you want to do is raise the boiling temp limit, IN THE CYLINDER HEAD. Meaning water pump speed, and outlet restriction.
There is a practical limit for cooling the intake charge, after that it's all about tuning, and that's where things get messed up.
I've seen one sy in particular start with 90dF IAT and finish the 1/4 at 115dF, and run 12s easily with a stock setup. On my GN up to 120s seems fine (but I was running alot more boost).
Remember some heat is a good thing for vaporization, which is what you want to capitialize on.
Course then we get to water injection, and all the falicies that go with it. Water is both a fuel, and oxidizer. But, folks just blindly go on about detonation suppression, and ignore what's really going on.
I'm not too sure about the last 2 years fuel brews (from the refineries), but it used to be the lower end boiling temps., were about 130-150dF. So if your IAT are 120 or less I'd say you OK, and just work on the other stuff I mentioned.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 03:10 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I have the 8746 TBI, looking for the cheapest scanner possible and I don't have a laptop yet so software is out of the question. What am I looking for in a scanner other than knock counts, BLM, TPS/IAC position, and the basics?
For a laptop, remember it doesn't take much for like diacom. Figure $100, and dead battery is fine if it will run off ot it's charger. 486/25 is just about over kill.
Find out when your local Sanp-On/Mac tool dealers are around, sometimes they have trade ins. Then snoop around you local dealer. I found 2 OTC scanners at a dealer once for $40 for the pair.
It's all about friends and networking....
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 07:27 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
I have a JET Stage 2 PROM from a 1989 Z28 350 Auto, will this PROM work in my 1988 Z28 350? Also can I use a 1988 definition file from TunerCat to reburn this chip, or will I have to get a different def file from them?
No, the 89 has VATS.
I'd advise switching over to the 89 code.
89 code does away with the cold start valve, and in general is more refined.
I'm not sure how the other stuff on the memcal lines up from 88 to 89, just to rule out any unknowns, I'd stick with a 89 memcal for 89 code.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-28-2001, 04:29 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86Chicken:
I pulled the magic metal box out of my car to find out what type of ECM I have and I can't find any numbers on the case or on the chip that relate to the ones in the tech article.
I am pretty sure that it is a 1226870 but I can't find any numbers to back this up.
Thanks in advance!
Dale
Vin 9 1227170
Vin R 1227429
Vin S 1226870 1227302
Vin W 1226870 1227302 1227730
Dems ya choices
-----------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-28-2001, 04:24 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
The truth about GM O2 voltages N, AFR
This oughtta be mandatory reading for subing here, IMWO..
Please note 300dF EGT, just scrambled the results. And that they are backpressure sensitive.
In case you don't know Frank, he does the data gathering on the GM C5 race cars.
This is a guestion, and Franks Response
06 Dec 1999
Frank F Parker
gnttype
> 02's are good until around 19-20 psi. then it starts to drop. o2's end
> up at around 675-750mv. this seems to be lean.
> @ the 18psi program the o2 will hover around 825-925mv
> I would like to see them around 1000mv. will turning up the FP solve
> this????
> How high FP can be run on the stock fuel rail and injectors????
> I do not run this program currently BC I think it needs some more fuel.
> i.e. 1000mv
> I would like to run more boost but not until I get the fuel to go with
> it.
I would run a higher base pressure, maybe as much as 10 psi more.
Higher pressures are ok, especially if you have the hp version of the
255L pump.
I was gonna post this later when it was more complete but it may help you.
I measured the reg O2 sensor voltage 2 ways. First with Diacom like we all
do, then at same time also hooked to 8 chan datalogger which gives very
accurate numbers. Also at same time was measuring wide-band O2 so I know
real a.f numbers. Other channels measured boost, fuel press etc etc.
Chart below shows NTK a/f vs measured O2 vs Diacom O2 As others have
soon before, here and on GN list, there is a slight offset to Diacom
values. Not really important since everything is relative.
NTK O2 O2 VOLTAGE Diacom O2 volt
9.9 to 1 0.895 0.982 data point
11.0 0.847 0.941 calculated
12.16 0.807 0.845 calc.
14.4 0.608 0.655 data point
12.8 0.829 0.916 actual
12.25 0.885 0.982 actual
The reason some of the Diacom points are calculated is that Diacom takes
data much slower than the logger.
Biggest thing to see is that the same Diacom point of 0.982 would seem
to be same a/f if you take O2 volt seriously BUT is really 9.9 rich
spike at tipin and a 12.25 point in 3rd gear. Plus notice the 2 points
show 0.01 volt diff from the logger (0.895 vs 0.885)- that is because
the logger has a 12 bit adc . The logger data does reflect the a/f
difference between the 2 a/f #'s of 9.9 and 12.25 but does not correspond
to the differences that the O2 voltage seems to show earlier. ( eg: .895,
.847, .807 trend) .
The difference I suspect may be in the O2 voltage vs temp effect that
has been noted before. The EGT was 1199 deg F when Diacom reported
a O2 value of 0.982 ( widerange=actual 9.9 a/f) and was 1576 deg F
when later in the run Diacom reported the same O2 volt of 0.982 and
widerange was =12.25 a/f
This is interesting stuff BUT PLEASE take everyones warning and be
caerefull about trusting O2 sensor voltage. It is helpfull but as u can
see, can be misleading
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 03:53 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Jon88GTA:
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. This may help explain a phenomenon noted a while back on the exhaust board. Several listers installed free-flowing exhaust systems and lost power (especially at low RPM, and at low throttle opening). Installing a restriction into the exhaust rememedied the problem.
Is the wide-band O2 sensor accurate regardless of EGT and backpressure?
While we're on the subject, when does the ECM rely on O2 voltage?
Oh boy, that's a whole nutter bucket of snakes. Backpressure has alot to do with the self EGR'ing of an engine. At low speeds especially with bigger then stock cams, when both valves are open there is alot more backpressure relative to manifold vac., so a far amount of exhuast is drawn back into the cylinder, during overlap at small throttle openings. Adding a little fuel and some timing, can help some.
On some codes the ecm does a backpressure calculation. I forget the math in that one, but we'll just say it's clever.
The WB's *heater*, which is a critical part of the design, operates at higher then EGT, so it's not really effected by it. I think at 2,000dF, there maybe a slewing toward lean of .05% or something like that, so even the error just throws you in the cautious side, and only by a slight amount.
The ecm uses the O2 voltage when in Closed loop.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 03:59 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Daz:
86 IROC 305 TPI manual trans & 87 IROC 350 TPI auto..the 87's chip is going to the 86
Daz
There *can* be alot of differences in how the IAC routines are set up. You may like it, might hate it. You'd be alot better off using something closer, the injector constants, and cylinder displacements will be wrong also.
Takes just a tad bit more work, but most guys like the 89 code better.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-28-2001, 04:33 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
After reviewing the list I have a few more questions:
1) Does it matter what gears you have or if it a federal or CA calibration?
I haven't seen anybody concerned about what gears a bin file is for or whether the bin is a federal or CA bin and I haven't seen a constant for rear gearing in a bin file. I suppose it has to do with fuel and spark optimizations?
2)What is the difference between a federal and CA calibration? Does it matter?
James
Gearing plays a big part in how much load the engine sees, and thus effects the timing and fuel reguirements. You can have more timing and fuel at lower engine speeds, with taller gears / looser converter.
On some cals makes all the difference on weither Fed or CA. There is even some export stuff. If you see the code NM8 that means it's even an unleaded chip.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 07:15 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
darn, it looks like most of those memcal part numbers are no longer valid, namely the 89 memcals. Looks like I'll have to go to the local dealer and either take it like a man or steal the part numbers and go to gmpartsdirect.
James
What's the problem?, you want the latest version of whatever base calibration your starting with. If you can't find a specific number used, then go new, if going new, just get the latest.
Remember there is more to a memcal then just the eprom.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 07:41 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JucinGTA:
I have a 305 TPI that came with the car, This setup has the 9th injecotr on it, I have a 350 computer, without the 9th injector setup, can I use that? will everything be ok?
Once you reburn the chip to disable the VATS. Oh, and unplug the 9th injector
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 07:22 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by nitroscj:
I'm trying to decide on what prom to use. I currently have the acxs 1088 prom from a 87 305. I have a 350 with 24lb injectors. What I plan on doing is getting a prom right from my gm dealership as I really don't have time YET to try burning my own proms. I can see that coming down the road though. I've thought about getting a prom for a 87 vette but then maybe just sticking with one from a 87 f body. Anyhow I could use some advice on what to get for right now to get me the best drivability. ken
There are difference from vette to F Bod calibrations.
You need to get the equipment and just do it right rather then Mickey Mouse things together.
After all it's just an engine your risking.
Besides you'll want to start with the 89 code, and that means disabling the VATS, and a dealer can't do that for you.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Old 05-29-2001, 03:56 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by StraightRollin:
Where is the PROM located in a 89 Firebird Formula?
If you pull the cover off of the ecm, there is a deally bob, with a blue cover (that's the memcal). If you take the blue cover off there are 3 chips mounted below it. The one with the AL sticker is the eprom. UV will erase the memory, that's why the AL sticker.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 04:32 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
Question. I've heard that the 'vette has an oil temperature sensor. Is that just a gauge, or does the ECM read it as well? If the ECM reads it, what does it do with that data? Alter engine parameters? Feed it in the ALDL stream? Anything else?
What year Vette.
They probably use it on the PCM stuff. I don't recall seeing anything on the 6E or 8D masks about it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 04:29 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert86Roc:
I know you dont like the 160* stats. I am using one just to help keep my car cooler, longer before the temp gets over where I want them at the races.
My BLM's are not perfect, but they are in the 132 range which is a LOT better than the 140-150 they were running at.
Now here is the question.
If cooler engine temps are not better for power, Why do I run quicker ET and MPH when my engine is cold? By cold, I mean the coolant temperature gauge is at 100* or below. Oil temp is still "warm" at 100*. The plenum is slightly warm to the touch, but not hot.
I know a cooler air charge will increase density of the air, but this happens regardless of the outside air temp. Of course, if the outside air temp goes down, I even go faster/quicker.
This obviously plays havok with a bracket racer, unless you keep the car at full temp before, and during your rounds... but if you do that, then your ET's are usually less than stellar. If I run at full temp (for me with the 165*-170 with both my fans running), my ET's can be 1.5-3 tenths of a second SLOWER than if the engine was cool. Using a hotter stat(180* or 195*), I run even slower.
I know that with the cooler engine I am not running as EFFICIENT, but it is making much more power... which is the reason most of us are here, right? You have implied in other posts that if your car runs better when it is cool, then it is a programming issue, and that we should be running as well or better with normal engine temps. Is this the case, or have I misunderstood? If so, where can the improvements be made? I want to get my current motor running as well as possible, learning all I can about tweaking my setup, before I go dropping my 406 in there and changing everything.
Thank you for any light you can shed on this,
It's not a matter of what I like. It's a matter of what works.
Remeber, first off your starting with a chip designed to run well under ALL circumstances. From ALaska, to New Mexico. In having the tune that generous, some compromises are made. Just has to happen to keep the EPA, and Joe Average Driver happy.
Even under varing weather conditions you should be very consistent. VERY....
Several things happen when you run a cool thermostat. One often ignored item is oil temp.. There is 2+ quarts of oil just whipped into a foam in the crankcase, all the time blowing againt the pistons. Hmm, guess what?. Ping time. I also always use a valley pan on the SBCs. If the pil temp is over 250dF a cooler goes on.
Not to forget tranny temps., if an auto. I use the large B+M AFTER the radiator heat exchanger. I want to get the tranny fluid as close to ambient as I can, not as close to engine temp that most folks suggest. But, I also, let the car warm up before any WOT...
Runner cooler means the ecm is slightly richer, and more timing.
As an experiment install a 180dF themostat and a 200 ohm resistor inline with the coolant temp sensor and see what happens. Remember the rad fan control will be fubar'd.
You might be having a heat soak problem.
I fully optimised 3 CCC Q-Jets for 160-180-195dF thermostats, and did back to back testing, each pass within 30 mins., and the 180-190 were just as fast. And they were much more consistent.
In my GN, just fooling around, my trap speeds are about button on pass to pass. What screws my ETs, is wheel spin, and shifting into high at about 1250'.
Just a matter of experimenting more with your chip, AND car.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 11:35 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert86Roc:
Thanks for the reply. I have run a 180 before, and all it did was get the engine hotter quicker. In the 115* summers, thats a bad thing. But for my testing, I will switch back.
As an example, when the motor was completely cool, I ran:
15.362 @ 88.238 w/ 2.114 60ft (normal) 85* outside air temp.
The next run, I let the car warm up to 140* and it ran:
15.450 @ 87.765 w/ 2.124 60ft
With the car at full temp: (165*) I ran:
15.514 @ 87.753 w/ 2.150 60ft
I will try my next runs as you suggested just to see what happens.
Thanks
I usually launch very consistently, with little or no wheelspin.
As soon as I get an adapter for my laptop, I will be recording my runs
MPH is how HP is guaged,
so .5 MPH, isn't alot, tune wise. I'd bet you can find that in tuning.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2001, 06:12 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Pablo:
this might sound like a dumb question, but what does the IAC do at WOT? does it go full shut or does it open?
It closes right? just making sure here
Off idle the IAC acts as a dash pot.
On a 87 350 I tried several pintles and lost several MPH by using different ones, the OEM was best
The steps **kinda** represent 25 rpm per step. That is on a GM Truck TBI, and running a Stepper motor controller to move the IAC around, again your results may vary
The park posistion is for helping chunks of carbon fall off as far as I can tell. My park is a 90 count down from 125.
Fooling with the IAC has alot to do with overrun, and sudden transistions. Not enough and you can get to stalling. Get everything else right and the play with it, is my advise,
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2001, 01:00 AM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by P J Moran:
Some new developments...
Yesterday during lunch, I installed an EPROM with the minimum idle set at 750rpm. Last night I went through "the procedure" to reset minimum air (car at operating temperature). Terminals jumpered, ignition on, wait 30 seconds. When I grasped the connector on the IAC valve, I felt a rapid ticking. I gave it some time to stop (thinking it hadn't closed yet), but it continued. It stopped once I disconnected it. Should it do this? I assumed that once the stepper had the pintle all the way in, it would stop.
I hooked up an "engine analyzer" with a presumably accurate tach. I started the car, set the parking brake, and put it into Drive. I backed the screw out slightly to set (reduce) minimum air to a wobbly 600rpm. Shut off engine, reconnect IAC, reset TPS, clear codes, and restart car.
It idles at nearly 900rpm! My dash tach reads closer to 800rpm. In neutral, it is over 1000rpm! Why is this? Does the ECM think it's running slower than it actually is? Are both of my tachs wrong?
It will just hammer away as long as yu have it set to. That will kill the rachet/paw inside of it. If you want to see one at world by a Stepper motor expeimenters kit and slow it way down, the one I got drives an IAC just fine. Also handy for releashing the pintle and reinstalling
Relly no reason for custom ones, they are a pain to get right BTDT, and generally you'll lose a couple MPH
On a TBI like yous your kinda limited on the dash pot cause the extra air is used.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2001, 04:34 PM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by P J Moran:
Some new developments...
Yesterday during lunch, I installed an EPROM with the minimum idle set at 750rpm. Last night I went through "the procedure" to reset minimum air (car at operating temperature). Terminals jumpered, ignition on, wait 30 seconds. When I grasped the connector on the IAC valve, I felt a rapid ticking. I gave it some time to stop (thinking it hadn't closed yet), but it continued. It stopped once I disconnected it. Should it do this? I assumed that once the stepper had the pintle all the way in, it would stop.
It idles at nearly 900rpm! My dash tach reads closer to 800rpm. In neutral, it is over 1000rpm! Why is this? Does the ECM think it's running slower than it actually is? Are both of my tachs wrong?
You've gottne the mechanical adjusstment wrong, or screwy numbers in the IAC stuff, and you may have triggered the AS. Anti-stall
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2001, 07:25 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by P J Moran:
Upon re-reading my post, It looks like I might be confusing matters. There are two problems I am trying to address:
1) The IAC won't stop "ticking" until I disconnect it. This seems wrong - maybe it's not. Perhaps it keeps on ticking (trying to close, although it's already closed) as long as I am in diagnostic mode.
2) The tach issue. Minimum air at 600rpm - EPROM at 750rpm - idle at over 900rpm! Factory tach says 900, engine analyzer tach says closer to 1000rpm! Is it really idling at 750 and both of my tachs read wrong, or is the ECM misreading the rpm, or is it bumping them up for some unknown reason?
As lond as your telling it to extend it will to try and extend.
Might be in stall saver.
You have the right netres?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2001, 05:39 AM #21
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by P J Moran:
Sorry to pick, but I usually can interpret your typo's. What are netres?
Not a typo, if you use the correct GM terms, it's short for Network Resistor.
--------------------------------------
Old 05-30-2001, 01:18 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JucinGTA:
What is the big deal, it doesnt hurt you guys, it just benifits us!!!!!!!
I've got 5 years of almost full time work invested in doing chips. 5 years.
I share about everything I know or have discovered for a grand reimbursement of nada. When I see some clown making money of what I've discovered, it kinda urks me. I do what I do cause I love cars, and want folks to have threir ride, right. It's also very educational. You want to turn this list into a commercial thing, fine, I'll be gone. If you research EFI and DIY, look around for Grumpy, nacelp, plecan, and get back to me and say I haven't done much for DIY EFI. Not to long agao, I and several friends hac'd the 747 using an ecm bench and logic. No reverse engineering, bit by bit went thru the chip changing things and seeing what happened. That was months of work. As folks saw that work was going on and Public Domained, is when Tunercat, and GMEPro came to life.
Lots of work has been done, and some of the guys here are starting to put the hours in and see how much work goes into things. They share cause they like to.
If all you want is some generic stuff, or novice guessing, you might as well just hand your money over to a commerical chip vendor.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-30-2001, 01:29 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kyle F:
I am thinking of starting to burn my own Chips for my TTA, but I know I will need some help and First hand experience is always good.
That's one car where you can cheat and get away with it. You can get a Translator Plus and run a late model MAF (LT1 or LS1), and if you do the wiring right, be able to adjust the timing and fuel from inside the car while driving. Then is you use Direct Scan you can monitor the ecm real time, instead of at the slow Baud rate. Then you can get nuts and get an extender chip and read to 510 grms/sec.
Of course the unltimate is doing your own chips with the translator, That's what I do with my GN.
There is a chip section at TurboBuick.com that you might find interesting.
--------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-30-2001, 01:22 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TRAXION:
Don't forget the simple things that you learned BEFORE you started programming EPROMs. Case and point ....
Tim
You mean you srive your car without a scanner hooked up?.
Gads, you are a dare devil
Have you tired 01 and 00 any of the code in the 8D?. Down in code section, to duw away with like stall saver?.
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-30-2001, 10:12 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by scanman717:
I got a memcal that has a coe 3163 below the 4 digit code. The code on my stock one is 3063. I was wondering if you think this should be ok, assuming, of course, that I burn the proper code to the chip (AXXB)??
Most all the look up stuff uses the alpha characters, using numerical probably won't get ya many answers
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-30-2001, 01:03 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
Do Hypertech "chips" come with the Memcal? If so, are the PROMS removable? I am asking because all the pictures of Hypertechs look like they have MemCals.
Hypertech has used at least three different styles of *prom replacements*.
So to answer your guestion, yes and no.
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 07:11 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89GTA5spd:
I am going to start eprom burning for my car soon. I am going to order/make the cable first (I have a laptop already). Also, at work I saw a bunch of re-writable eproms, and my boss said I could use a couple. Does anyone know what chips I can use? I also just wanted to get an aftermarket chip to steal the socket to place new my chips in, but I am not sure what years I can use. It seems that corvette chips are the easiest/cheapest to come by. Can I use those? Any help would be appreciated. thanks.
Depends, from time to time they sell different adapters/ memcals. You have to actually look at what your getting.
What car are you working on?.
Too often someone assumes the sig line is what they are talking about and then things are wrong. Doing eproms means accurate guestions to get good info..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2001, 09:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
Is there an easier way to tell the specs of a ECM besides knowing the ECM ID. That just tells me a range of years that the ECM is out of....or doesn't it matter? Example: if I have a ECM (01227165) out of a 1989 Camaro, can I use that in an 88 Camaro if I disable VATS?
A 1227165 is a 1227165.
The software (memcal) is what makes the different. If I understand your guestion right
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2001, 09:09 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by UnderDogRS:
im going to be swaping a 94' Lt1 drivetrain into my RS in about 3weeks. i'm going to remove the VATS and EGR and a/c from the LT1 and need to reprogram the PCM to account for the changes. but cant seem to find any info on the flash bins. if anyone could please post or email (amnewman@mpinet.net) any help
to me. i would be greatful.
also does any one have a program to reaf/write to the PCM that is free..
tia,
RS
Your not going to find any free Flash Prom Stuff.
Tunercat sells the software for working with the LT1 flash stuff, and you'll need to get the matching cables. There is a link (sorry but I lost it) for Andrew Mattei (?) who sells the cables.
There's another editor, but it only allows use on one given vin code.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 05-30-2001, 08:14 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
Does anyone know if this limit has been cracked yet? If not is anyone working on it? Where would that limit be programmed in the ecm? I called TPIS, and they said, "we can program that computer to read a jet engine if we want." I assume that means they know what to change to break the 255 g/sec limit.
It's the sensor and it's calibration.
Read a jet engine, ya ever notice some folks say anything to sell you something?..
There's more materail on this in the archives at DIY_EFI.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2001, 05:29 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
Unfortunately the sy/ty ecm tables are currently set up with a redline of 4800, so there's no tunability above that point
Not many engines want or need a timing or AFR change over that speed.
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2001, 05:33 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
As Afgun said, they (Regals and SyTys) use different systems. Much like the newer F-bodies and Y-bodies have ecms that support 512 MAFs AND MAP sensors. Again, different system.
You can search on "GN" or "SYTY" on this board and find some interesting posts on these. I think there is even a link or two to some sites dealing with them.
On a stock maf'd GN you can peg the MAF at 2,500 rpm (none stock setup)
So you set the fuel and timing so it just runs it's best. Meaning that if your flowing say 500 g/sec, untill you get there you'll be running alot richer then necessary, which on a turbo motor isn't as bad as you might think.
Luckily there is hardware to run LT1 or LS1 MAFs on a GN.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-01-2001, 05:15 PM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
Isn't the GN MAF variable frequency, instead of variable resistance/voltage?
Yes, frquency
What do you mean instead of?.
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-30-2001, 10:09 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
I will be upgrading my 870 ECM to the later 165 ECM. I have the PROM burning equip and a couple spare memcals all setup with a ZIf socket and such.
My question is reguarding the splicing and pin technique.
On mike davis's page it looks like he used the type of splicing connectors that come with an MSD. You know those blue folding plastic pieces that use a tab of metal to cut through the insulation on both wires and connects them. Is this the best way or should I just strip the wires and solder them?
I bought some GM pins from the local electronics store, even though I'm not to sure if they will be needed yet. It looks like Mike Davis used shrink tube where the pin connects to the wire. I don't know if that needs to be done though. What about soldering the pins as well as crimping? That seems like a good technique although it appears GM just crimped them.
What is the best way to label the wires? I can imaging by function. But what about old/new pin location etc. by function is probably the best way, but maybe those experienced can shed some light.
Basically any advice is welcomed.
I just crimp at the ecm joint (on interior mounted ecms), all wiring splices are soldered, and heat shrinked.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2001, 09:15 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BLOWN85/TA:
Glenn or Bobalos or whoever knows, can I run a 2 bar MAP now, even though the ECM cant interpret the 2nd bar without it messing things up? Or will I have to BURN MY OWN PROM for this to work? LOL
The only 2 Bar compatible code is for the syclones using a 1227749.
There are editors for that, and you can recalibrate it for use on a v8.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-02-2001, 02:01 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BLOWN85/TA:
Thanks! That's what I was looking for. I was not sure if the range of the 2bar MAP was extended or if it used the same range and was halved compared to the 1 bar MAP for the same value. Now that I think about it it was an amatuer question. I will run it and debug on the single bar, then swap over to the 2 bar later when the turbo or new blower go on. By then Bobalos, Glenn, and other's should have more data on the SY/TY code running on the 730 ECM. Thanks again!
There already is some at the DIY-EFI site in the archives.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-02-2001, 06:00 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
I supposedly programmed my first chip. I have a few questions for those experienced with the pocket programmer and their windows program. I am converting my ECM this weekend from an 870 to a 165 so if my new prom doesn't work I couldn't definatively say what it was. It might be my ECM, wiring, memcal, eprom, or perhaps a combination of some.
*this is for a 165 ECM
Here's what I did using their windows program (v1.08):
1)selected chip (27C128)
2)did a blank check (was blank)
3)loaded buffer (with a bin)
4)programmed device (pushed the GUI button)
5)verified [programmed] device (verifed)
Is this correct? I would assume so but I haven't done this before.
It took a couple of seconds to program. is that how long it takes for the size eprom I'm using?
I left the default file type to binary but isn't the bin file a hex file? I haven't heard anybody change that setting plus there are three hex file types: motorola, ascii, and Intel. If I did it wrong which one is right?
Sounds right to me.
---------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-02-2001, 07:06 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
O2 sensors-Final Answers
Just to continue on a theme:
First, CARB, and the EPA can't even agree on exactly they do sense (oem switching types). So that kinda sheds a new light on things for openers.
The idea of grounding the sensor thru the exhaust is poor at best, and on the new sensors they use 4 wires, one ground for the heater, and one for the sensor, thou they apprear to be common on most sensors.
There is a reason for GM having several hundred part numbers.
They vary slightly for response time, and exact crossover voltage. While a vast majority cross at 14.7 some are at 15.2.
While you can get by with being sloppy with replacements, don't be surprised if your mileage, and emissions suffer.
Tubing headers are WONDERFUL heat exchangers, and if you move the sensor down to an area by the collector, while it might still function, it's cross counts might be really slow. My advise if you run tube headers, or relocate the sensor further downstream even with the oem headers, at least get a heated sensor.
The Bosch replacements are noted for having a poor connection on the ground side of the actual sensor internally.
If you graft an extension on to the O2's lead wire you will have problems if you solder and heat shrink it. The sensor "breathes" thru the wire to get a reference o2 reading. So crimp only, and mount it to be sure moisture can't accumulate (impossible, IMWO).
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-02-2001, 06:03 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by prscarf:
i locked the blms to 128 and tuned using the int which has worked well. i only have one fuel table and when i stood on the peddle the truck began to miss and backfire, why! i increased the pe/tps (pumpshot) to 20% less of what the 454 values are on a different bin, still doing the same. below was the data when the motor began backfiring and missing:
map 91.5kpa
rpm 3100
blm 128
int 127
tps% 74.1
tranny gear d3
spark advance 15.1
egr promed out
knock retard promed out
383 stroker, 64cc 23deg trickflow heads c/w edlebrock performer intake and adapter, cam is an extreme 4x4 comp. Cam. 12-235-2 grind ( .447/.462 lift, duration 210 218 lift @50, 111 lobe separation) . unit has hypr. Flattop floating pistons, eagle cast crank, 5.7eagle rods. 10.2:1 comp. Headers c/w 2.5? flowmaster exhaust. 16147060 pcm, $85def
Why only 74% Throttle, and 15d timing?.
Do you have a commanded AFR value?
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-27-2001, 01:41 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I can't find any reference on the DIY-EFI archives. Ane the instuctions still avaliable? Is the prototype still in opertion? Grumpy are you listening?
Jason
It's posted at incoming, but there is alot of work being done on a much better version.
Daz all I can say for now..
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 02:08 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by branz28:
I don't quite understand. How does EGOR work? Is it in place of the O2 and able to work with the computer? or is it something totally different?
It's a wide band O2 sensor so you can get some true idea of where you are fuel wise. The gm oems are switching types and just tell you rich or lean, and are effected by operating conditions, so they are not at all accurate for really seeing what is going on. With a WB you can see what weather changes (if the cal is off) make etc..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2001, 11:39 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Wooten:
I dont think that you are going to be able to get a WBO2 to work with any factory ECM. the problem is scale & offset. the factory ECM is expecting that the O2 is going to be @ 14.7:1 @ about .5 Volts & is going to expect the O2 sensor to have a certain number of O2 Cross counts. with any of the WBO2's neither of these is going to be satified. The offset issue is not that big a deal, & one would probably get away with the cross counts issue w/o having to do anything, but. once you have this "working" what is the ECM going to do with the info. if XXXX mv = YY:1 AFR, the ECM is still not going to know what to do with that information.
I suppose if you were able to work all these small things out & you did have a table that showed what AFR is what Voltage you could data log this with your Data Master or Diacom, to tell you rich or lean. THIS, would actually be of some use for tuning purposes.
hth, & that i am not too far off base.
BW
Interfacing the WB to a stock ecm is easy. teh oem sensor is of the switching type. Now for datalogging is s seperate issue.
The WB needs to have it's output interupted several different ways depending on use.
If you want to straight data log it *just* use a 0-1 output, and run the ecm with the C/L enable set at 254, ie as in for racing. Then change chips, and ouputs from the WB for enabled C/L.
Bruce
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-02-2001, 08:28 AM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I can't find any reference on the DIY-EFI archives. Ane the instuctions still avaliable? Is the prototype still in opertion? Grumpy are you listening?
Jason
My old prototype still works jsut fine.
There have been a few guys working in a new *light* on how to handle things. There is a finished prototype in use, and a guy is now working on PCBs. So for the moment it's still a hang in there ist's coming mode. But, the new one is simplier, and very much improved, VERY.
I'm waiting on parts to build one, of the new ones, if I can build it and geting it working, just about anyone can.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-02-2001, 06:09 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CanadianBeast:
Grumpy when do you expect the new version to be completed? Will it be compatible with the ecm? I've been trying to learn as muchas I can, after the fact, ie I didn't start into proms until a few of months ago, is there talk of the diy egor in the archives at GM_ecm? I've started reading them totry and "catch up" but thefiles issohuge that it's taking forever.
Anyways thanks for devoting your time and knowledge to helping DIY'ers.
It's completed and being tested.
Just a matter of final tinkering and this time were working on a PCB we're so happy with it. Still working on interfaces for da humans and the ecm. Just to give a prospective on it, it's been 4 years in the works. Hopefully in weeks, but any problem will delay that.
MINESTICKSATTIMESTOOSPECIALLYWITHCAP>LOCKON
HAHAHAHA
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-02-2001, 05:58 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
what to use for prom window cover?
Is electrical tape good or is there something better?
I use address labels, and scissors. Glue is not goowy (?) and cleans easily.
Pastes from shooting range are good also.
------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2001, 07:03 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by nate88iroc:
What all does the ECM control for the ignition system. My car is not getting any spark and was just wondering if it could have anything to do with it. I have changed the distributer, ign module, coil, msd, pick up coil, ESC module, cap and rotor, and I have checked all of the wiring and still no spark. Any help will be appreciated.
nate
During crank the ignition system just uses the module, once over 200-400 rpm then the ecm takes control of the timing.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2001, 07:09 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by lars92RS:
One of my friends decided to pull his chip so that I could burn him a new one(didn't ask, just assumed). Only he forgot which way it came out. We put it back in one way and it ran bad. We pulled it again and the SES light flashed rapidly so we figured that the first way was correct. We put it back and it still ran poor. the only thing i did to it was read it with my Pocket programmer.
Is there anything that you could think of that would cause it to run poorly? It back fires at low RPM's and doesn't make it to high RPM's very easily. he also just finished changing the starter.
trying to read it at too high of voltage could have hurt it. When reading programming an unknown chip always use the lowest voltage versions first.
Notch in chip toward notch in holder, and notchs toward netres.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-02-2001, 01:57 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by lars92RS:
If I make a change in the PS vs Diff TPS should I also make an increase of some sort in the PS vs Diff MAP? Maybe an entry level question but I'm an enrty level kind of guy.
Nope, they are totally independent for when you use what. They are like the discharge nozzle size, but don't change the duration of the shot like nozzle sizes do.
On some cars a change of "1" makes a ton of difference, so go slow. When first tinkering I tried 3 one time. Made it about 4 blocks and had to put the old chip in.
BTW, ALLOWS carry your last chip with you just in case.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2001, 07:11 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by lars92RS:
Thanks for the advice. I scaled both by 1.125. I gueess I'll be changing them back.
I never make over a 10% change in anything unless I really really sure about what's going on.
-----------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2001, 07:12 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by prscarf:
this is found on my constants table and was hoping someone could explain. why would you delay this function and what should this be normally set to?
Some heavier vehicles need a slight pause before goinng to WOT, because there is so much weight relative to the HP available, others, use it a mileage thing, you actually don't need WOT every time you use 100% TPS. So they have a little delay, kinda like saying do you really want to go WOT or can we think about this.
Then the other table is like OK, we're already reved up so we can go to PE WOT, IF the TPS value is so high.
No universal answers on settings, that's part of burning chips, finding out what works for your combination
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 07:36 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by branz28:
Well, probably nothing impressive, but i was saying, people had to actually do the hard work that GM did for the LS1 owners. Maybe i was mislead. About the only thing i don't get about the 165 is the MAF scalers....Confuses me all to heck, especially when i read posts "I change one value to such and such and car would not idle"
Other then a few leaked documents, GM has been fighting the EPA since 1983 about source codes. They consider it priviledged info and not needed for the home tuner.
Some folks like Lingenfelter, SPL, and a few others seem to get a hand from GM, but just since they all do EPA approved work.
Yes, the MAF stuff is fussy. That's just the way the system is.
BTW, from what I read, I'd stick with the info. here alot faster then there.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2001, 03:52 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin91Z:
Back when our cars came out, EFI tuning and PROM burning didnt exist! In the last 10 years its gotten a following, and has exploded in the last 5 years. The LS1 is the hot new engine so of course all the latest aftermarket stuff will be geared towards it. Our cars are old and there isnt as much interest in them any more, so we get left behind or forgotten. Thats why... I firmly believe if the internet was as popular 10-15 years ago as it is now, our cars would have gotten the attention the LT1's and LS1's get now.
Prom burning and hacing have been around since the first ecms.
Took a long time to figure out the gmese, to figure more out.
Don't hold you breath waiting for a LS1 editor. The flash eeproms are alot harder to work with since they are encrypted, and then need all the normal hacing.
While some firms are selling some programing stuff, so far I haven't heard of any of it actually working.
The 8D and 6E are the money makers for the folks selling editors. Few folks also tear into their cars that are under warranty to tinker with them.
Folks like Lingenfelter and SLP which do enhanced (legal) products are the only ones getting the prime info., from GM.
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2001, 07:16 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by branz28:
Well, i guess one day i'll get to prom tune the ole 98 z sitting out in the driveway waiting for me to drive it.
Might investigate using say a MY95 PCM that is hac'd.
If the wiring and connectors are the same, might be an alternative.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2001, 08:39 AM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by prscarf:
fb, i finally got my new engine running and cannot seem to understand how to convert the above table numbers to degrees. i thought it was n x (90/256)? are you running your engine with higher values than the above?
also, what compression are you running with the 64cc vortecs. flattop or dish pistons?
what is your initial timing set at, "0" (ecm diconnected) the gm dealer told me "0" is factory for initial.
[This message has been edited by prscarf (edited June 02, 2001).]
Those are degrees so reverse the formula to see what the entries are in hex.
I wouldn't run that map on a million dollar bet. Grab a bunch of bins and look at them.
This is a classic, run as much timing as possible. In hilly terrain, you gonna beat the bottom end out of the motor. Also, the timing in over run can be much improved.
And the 747 ecm won't even see 46d timing. The distributor would be firing the next cylinder at over 45d timing, and if your running any initial you'll have even more problems.
Gads, bad, bad, bad,
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2001, 07:30 AM #21
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by FastBroker:
hmmmm, that curve got me 300+hp and 400+ lb-ft on an engine dyno after 2 days of engine dyno work with an HEI/carb and then TBI on the same motor. XE250 cam. Not to mention specific fuel conmption numbers. Maybe it doesn't work and it was all a dream. Gee, an old HEI looks awefully familiar to that curve, so sell your pre-ECU cars cause the spark is wrong.
Before getting too sarcastic you might think tings thru a little farther.
vac adv is used thru a ported vac source, sot at say 3,000 rpm the throttle is opened enough to be above the ported source so yo don't have any vac adv at the rpm (as an average figure).
Again as you increase the throttle opening the eng vac drops so even if your using man vac to it it does the same thing, and again it drops off alot quicker then in that table.
Try driving up a serious hill with that table, and watch you knock counts.
Dynos are need if you comparing dyno numbers, but have little to do with the real world, watch the tuners, of a pro team, even with a million hours in the dyno cell, they still check plugs ALL the TIME.
Dynos never take into account the actual under hood operating conditions, PERIOD. And they have alot to do with tuning.
---------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-02-2001, 06:53 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Radiator Fan Operation-Final Answer
What you might consider doing is not using the ecm to control the fans.
I just use a radiator fan switch from a 87 GN (on@210).
In case you haven't noticed, the ecm is used to ground all the items that it drives (with rare exception), so there is good reason for them to run warm. What I perfer to do is releive them of as much heat as possible so they don't run as hot. To date I have yet to need to replace an ecm other then for wearing out the prom socket.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2004, 06:47 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by dimented24x7
The only thing I really dont like about using the ecm for total fan control is that, in the event of a hardware, overvoltage, or prom failure for me, there is nothing to control the fan.
And the same can be said for injector control, the O2 for closed loop, the K/S for detonation, etc..
A simple on-off switch would give redundancy.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2004, 06:51 AM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost
Find me a switch that does on at ~185 and less than $30 and I'll buy it. I just haven't found one to come on that low and it's annoying because my motor likes to be between 170 and 180.
Wire in a $3 RS on-off switch, and send me the remaing $26.99.
And why does it favor 170-180dF?.
Sounds to me like the cal, is off.
It seems to me, that's it's been pretty well documented, that warmer temps are in fact better.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2004, 07:49 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by whitess
Grumpy,
Does the GN switch work just for the single fan setup or duals or both? How did you wire it up?
Thanks,
Larry.
When I want cooling, I turn every thing on. I can't see the point of partical cooling, other then when doing condenser cooling.
So it's just wired up as the fail safe for the ecm, per stock, and I have a manual over ride.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2004, 06:04 AM #23
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBill
if you want to build an adjustable fan switch controller let me know and I'll send you the schematic. It doesn't take many components, pretty easy to build.
Gessh, Doc's been waving his hands, all morning over this, guess we'll need to have a set if it's not too much trouble.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-30-2004, 09:14 PM #28
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBill
Here's what I'm using:
http://misterbill.homeip.net/vette/F...EMATIC_3_0.PDF
I pondered having some boards made...just didn't think there would really be any interest.
Let me know if anything doesn't make sense.
Doc says, simplicity is the key to design, and asks anyone to do better then this.
+_____/.____O___>>>
................Fan
He's been a real PITB today.........
Come to think of it, if you do some boards, I'll take $20 worth.
-------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2001, 04:03 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Ok, here goes. When i start the car cold, the idle goes to 1500rpms and then right back down to 1000-900rpms, shouldn't the car be holding the rpms up at around 1500+ when its STONE COLD?
For some reason mine doesn't??
Brendan
There are no universal this is the proper choke setting. There are so many calibrations, and each with it's own little tweaks, impossible to say.
On my cars I never use a choke rpm higher then 900, and set the max IAC count to just higher then that. So my ice cold engine jumps to like 950ish, and then immediately drops to 900. BUT, that is just what works for me.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2001, 09:49 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by lars92RS:
I need the Stock bin for a 4.3L 1989 Chev Astro Van. ECM:7747 Bin:AKHM1143 I've checked the BIN library at DIY-EFI and it's not there. Can anyone help me out?
Thanks,
Lars
If it ain't there it ain't.
Seriously.
AND if anyone is holdin out on me their in trouble anyway LOL.
BTW, we all owe Tunercat a thank you on that he gave a couple hundred to the collection
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2001, 09:41 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
I've noticed that MAF cars generally have a MAP sensor, including my dad's GN. What function does this serve to the ECM? Is is to sense vacuum for the EGR? When I look at the wire diagram, I do not see it. However, I see an "EGR VACUUM SENSOR" pin "C15". Is that the MAP sensor? This would be on a "165" ECM.
The GNs and TTAs use the sensor for the indicator lights for boost on the dash, they are not tied into the ecm.
The EGR vas switch is just a pressure switch to make sure there is vac present at the egr controller.
On some PCMS (like the LT1 and LS1s) they use both, the MAP is kinda a double check on tht MAF, and maybe used for sudden transistions, and the MAF for more steady state.
-------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2001, 02:10 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
I have 2 bins that GMECM would probably enjoy. They are:
APYY ($6E)
ACYD ($32)
The bin_lib currently doesn't have these bins and some people may want to use these to compare with.
I have a hypertech memcal I use as a carrier.
What is the purpose of the manual transmission switch if it is not used?
The first sentence answers the question I think. Not sure but might be for the shift light rather then TCC
I'm the collector of the Bin Lib, and would appreciate copies of each please
nacelp@bright.net
Thanks
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2001, 06:22 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jfulford:
Hello. I've got an 89 T/A that will have a mild 89 GTA rebuild 355 in about a month(currently a 305/5speed/4.10 gears/K&N/gutted MAF/headers/3" exhaust/hiflow cat). I just order the pocket programmer and emulator. I have been playing with Winbin(read the Prom burning Intro and many posts to this board). My question is: Which .ecu would be the best to start with for my particular project? I have been using the 89v4 and the apyp*89vette ecu's, along with the 89Z305* and 89305tpi* bins. Are these good starting points? I also plan to back up my stock chip. Should I just stick with this?
thanx
jeff
jfulford1@earthlink.net
Quick cancel the emulator, I haven't heard of one working yet with a gmecm
Personally I like the GMEPro and tunercat.
------------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2001, 04:01 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
Craig, Thanks, I'll try it! Any ideas on the DFCO?
Decleration Fuel Cut Off.
On the turbo car I disable it as an anti-lag devise. On a N/A car probably helps roll down some, ie saves on brakes. For road racing I'd disable it for keeping some combustion chamber heat, especially with AL heads.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2001, 02:13 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I'm starting with a 90 Vette bin. I liked my timing map that I had with the 165 ECM. Can I just use the same table and plug it into the 7730 bin? Are the LV8 and MAP load values fairly close? I have no idea how to tune part throttle timing. The idle timign jumps around from 7 degrees to about 15 degress when it lumps around 800 - 825 - 850. What should the timing be at idle? Guess I'm asking what I should be shooting for. I understand WOT timing down the right side. Its the part throttle stuff I'm fuzzy on. Also, upon start up and driving around, all my block learns are 108. Should I start by wacking out 16% (*.84)of all the VE values to try and rough it in first?
Jason
Nope, the 255 timing could be put in the 100 K/Pa column, but that's about it.
Thou it will give you some hints about where to be at say cruise. With MAP you can retard the begibbers out of the timing during overrun.
Set the timing, as per the manual at 6d and then work on it from there, yes it will bounce around when everything is hooked up and you put a timing light on it
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2001, 08:46 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
If you're going with a 350 then think about the caprice 89 cop car chip. That was my best match for my mild 350.
You ran a 89 cop car chip in a 747?.
Or with the 746?.
If you want a slick but unhaced ecm for the yellow brown injectors then use the 91 16136965 ecm, it has a lean cruise, already in it.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2001, 08:49 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron91RS:
Probably not but I need a cheap way to get a chip designed for a bigger engine.
That would be like bolting on a Dominator for a stock 305.
There are no short cuts, tuning is tuning, takes some different tools, but you can't expect to build an engine, and just run a stock carb, or dissy on it.
The accleration enrichment for a 454 is just totally wrong for a SBC. Timing not much better.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-07-2001, 08:11 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by cp87GTA:
I've been reading posts from the last six months. Where can I find the memcal/ prom codes? I have a few that I want to play with. Some 128s and 256s. I am running a hypertech #3 chip presently, way too rich. Still confused a little on memcals too. I also have a stock 305 auto chip/memcal. I don't realy want to cut it up just yet. Thanks guys.
Snap-On has a nice book of them.
I bought an obsolete one for $20, and use it. Stops at MY 94, but I just do old stuff anyway
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2001, 01:27 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steves ZZ5:
I just finished replacing a bad AFPR, and also dropped in some new SVO 30# injectors (set my injector constant to 33#).
(my IAT is relocated)
Start again, use the 33 injector size, and relocate the IAT to where it was originally.
Then drive around some an see where your BL numbers are. The move the injector size around some and see if that doesn't take care of you BL numbers or at least get you close.
Then fine tune your VE entries, and work back and forth with timing since it will have an effect on what the VE entries need to be. And VE entries will have an effect on detonation, and also timing.
One change at a time, and just do what makes the egnine happy, not what you THINK it needs
------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2001, 05:21 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HighHopes85:
7730 Computer. Looks like I can only play with injector constant...is this correct? Evidently I made a big mistake with my injector selection and unfortunatly, the 3 of the old ones are seized. As soon as the computer goes to closed loop, the BLM wanders on down to 108. I have turned my AFPR as far as it will go.
The car actually ran smoother with a 305 bin (engine is a 350, an 85 Vette with the 870-165 conversion). This is weird though, because the injector constant in the 305 was of course lower than the 350. Thanks, -Matt-
You can't cover huge errors in mechanicals with programing. What size injectors, and what for motor mods?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2001, 06:44 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
I am going to make a custom BIN for my 327. This will be an 89 ecm/harness (no cold start inj.). I have to have a starting point, so which bin should I start with, 5.0L or 5.7L?
I'd start with a 730.
The MAP system is not displacement sensitive. 327 has about nothing in common with either the 5 or 5.7L engines as far as design principals. 327 is kinda a high rpm engine and that's where MAFs run out of resolution, being a small displacement engine that would work for you with the MAF, but I don't see where going thru all the MAF scalers and stuff is going to be any fun.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-09-2001, 10:04 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by joes88gta:
hey all i recently purchased my 88 gta. i have done all the free mods, and just finished up with the usual cap/rotor/plugs/and wire tuneup. other than the shift kit its all stock. my 60ft times are2.197 and with a 15.1 at 88mph. i am considering a chip purchase and was wondering what would go with my current combo. also would 4:11's really bring down those 60ft times. also when i go through the traps its only turning 3500 rpms. thanks...joe
4.11s would be a total waste of time.
3.23s, or 3.42s are alot more like it.
You need lots of high rpm, to use 4.11s.
Your engien runs out of breat (cam heads exhuast) way before that.
I had 3.23s in my Cross Fire Firebird, and driving easy ran mid 13s.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Old 06-09-2001, 06:57 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Hi Guys:
I found a post requesting a VIN# so their scan tool would work with there SD converted car. ONLY TO BE STUNNED TO FIND OUT MY VIN# being openly given out without my knowledge or permission.
If that doesn't bother you, then please e-mail me your bank account, credit card and SSN numbers.
Regardless, any future requests for VIN#s or posting of VIN#s on this board are banned and will immediately be deleted.
Ughh, I hate to hear that happening,
but as an alternative, just have or use the vin number with the last 6 numbers as 00's.
I would have thought someone would have done that rather then give out a good valid VIN.
What I did was just go thru parking lots, and got vins off of the right cars, but never used the actual serial number of the car (meaning changed the last 6 digits).
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2001, 05:26 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
AIR is being directed to my exhaust manifolds in open loop. How does this effect the open loop fuel tuning? My O2 sensors starts reading pretty quickly and I wonder if there's enough air going into the exhaust manifolds to give me a false lean O2 reading.
Right now, I've got my open loop fuel set so that the O2 starts cross-counting as soon as it's up to temp. But, the car smells rich. When I spray carb cleaner in the TB, it almost kills it, which I take to mean that it's way rich. Any ideas?
Open loop means the ecm is ignoring the O2 sensor so it doesn't matter how much air the pump is putting in, and in comparison to the engines exhuast ain't much anyway.
Open loop is richer then closed loop
Spraying enough of anything in the TB will kill the engine.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-07-2001, 11:17 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
I need to disable the EGR on my 747 controlled motor. I've read the archives and managed to thoroughly confuse myself. How exactly does one disable the EGR with the 747?
I'd be interested to hear if you get that 4 Brl, and 747 dialed in.
I never got the injectors so they *sounded* right on the ecm bench.
--------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-28-2001, 11:05 AM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Ease
Has anyone here been using this?.
How much is it?
Maybe a URL?.
Thanks
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-28-2001, 11:31 AM #2
james_fearn
Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: SoCal
Posts: 402
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via ICQ to james_fearn
http://www.easesim.com/index.html
haven't been using it though...
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2001, 12:56 PM #5
87IROC350
Member
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Land O Lakes, FL
Posts: 342
Engine: 5.7
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.27
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via ICQ to 87IROC350 Send a message via AIM to 87IROC350
I've been using it also for about a year and been very happy. I originally bought diacom and returned it for EASE. There was not that much of a price difference for the personal version. I believe I paid a little over $300.
87IROC350 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2001, 12:28 AM #6
mmaker
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 44
iTrader: (0)
Ease works fine on an 88 iroc.
Cost me $305/315 i think US$.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-26-2001, 10:16 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
Check my sig for my combo. The only change is I'm almost done installing a 454 TBI unit with 90# injectors.
My understanding is that VE tables when added up can not exceed 100%... if they go above 100%, it is interpreted as 100%
Is this correct?
My problem with this is that it would seem that using the BPW in this manner counter acts using larger injectors... it makes the code in the computer make new larger injectors flow the same fuel as the stock ones at all points.
Is this correct?
If the above is correct, with only about 5-20% VE left to add to the fuel tables from the stock calibration.... how do I get the extra fuel out of them to support double the HP that the stock calibration was designed to support?
What I think I really need is a BPW calculation that will allow me to run the injectors at my required calculated duty cycle (90%)to support my projected power level at Peak rpm/MAP... and then re-work all the part throttle cells to work with that BPW.
Am I on the right track here?
With that said, Grumpy, what is your BPW. I think your combo is about the closest to mine and it will give me an Idea if I'm heading in the right direction.
One thing I never do is release, exactly what I do. No one learns anything that way. As far as the BPW, goes, that I was using I dirived that from looking at some BBC pickup bins, and experimenting. Doing the Math will just get you so far, and in non oem stuff, might even confuse matters more then it helps.
While the VE stuff can't ever exceed 100%. Setting the numbers up so that they do, can lower the point at which the ecm does get to 100%. That probably sounds strange, but if you play with some bins, you'll feel the difference, and when working below th stall speed of the converter can make a difference.
Once you sort of close on at least drivibility you can start working on WOT, and get the AFR right there, and then yes backtrack to lower load areas.
Oh, and for the cells, I don't bother myself with them. Might seem strange but just never had a problem there.
When you get to really different combinations, then it really is a matter of small steps and note taking.
ie like when I went from 40s to 55s. I knew from the 40 my motor just seemed to like seeing a 36.6 instead of 40. So I went to the 55s with a 55 entry and they slowly backed down on injector size till I got what I wanted, and at 52.5 was there. Then I was able to work out the WOT stuff.
So I had my choise of redoing the MAF tables or Injector constant, and by doing the injectors constant saved alot of time. Point is experimenting and notes.
That's why I put so much time into the bin library, so folks could look at stock bins if different combos, and see how things got done
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2001, 01:46 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by bigblue:
I'll soon be getting into the prom burning scene, but right now, i just got my diagnostic software working and saw something very strange. The car always seemed to run rich after running for about 1.5 minutes. I'm guessing it'r running rich because the exhaust starts spewing out liquid and stinking hydrocarbons a minute or 2 after a cold start. While on the scanner, I saw that it going into closed loop is the change that causes this. I am suspect of leaky injectors because the engine always floods itself when I want to do a hot start 5 minutes after shutdown.
The engine isn't stock. It's a 1988 vette l98 engine with a 1987 firebird ECU/prom/harness. Thus with the aluminum l98 heads in a car that thinks it's all f-body, there is no EGR operation. The A.I.R. is currently only hooked up to the manifolds.
Does any of this make sense? If I'm wrong, please somebody put me in my place! Thanks.
Are those the 58cc heads?
If so they take a totally different calibration to get to work right. Well at least for the timing. At cruise they like about as much at you can give them, and then at WOT run really well with 24-28d of timing, yes there are no typos in that. The large chamber iron heads need tiiming in the mi 30s but not the D port early AL vette heads.
If it was leaking injectors it would be hard to start all the time. Hot restart is usually in the coolant temp correction table error.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2001, 05:39 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
How do I control the timing in the 165 above 4800 rpm? Can I?
What would you want to do?.
Add more?.
Why?
If you have to or think you do, run a MSD retard that is always on at the lower rpm, and only off at the points you want the extra timing.
BTW, I've never known anyone that needed to.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-09-2001, 06:47 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomcat:
Isnt there a address that relates to spark andvance after 4800rpm , I know there is in the $5D ,I am sure if you did a data log of a full power run you will see that the timing does not stay at a limit after 4800rpm
You have a location for that?.
The 5D has just about nothing in common with the USA chips.
Would have been nice if they included the US diagnostics so it would have caught on as an alternative here. BTW, I posted kinda a hac to it at the DIY area, and it should be in the archives.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2001, 01:50 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomcat:
Grumpy the location for the HI ADVANCE RATE on a $5D program is at $002D
It relates to advance/1000rpm
I heard that someone on the gmecm list was porting the 808 to have high speed diagnostic interface , havent heard any update for a while though
Daniel
DOWNUNDER
If it's who I think it is don't hold your breath. You'd have to use a 165, or add a chip to the 808 for the high speed ALDL as far as I know.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 01:56 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
Just wondering what to do if I find a knock after 4800.
"What if's" are a way for a mind to wonder. On some later stuff they reduce the timing a couple degrees, but it's more a matter of reducing engine failures. 99.9999999% of tuners have this silly notion that more timing always means faster, and it don't. You can get to a stage of having so much fuel and timing that your no longer really relying on spark for ignition, rather you've crossed over into autoignition (diesels). the results short term can be fun, but long term, engine failures.
If you have detonation at over 4,800 you've just over done the timing, or out run the resolution of the MAF, for fuel. Pegging the MAF can bite you, but you mentioned timing.
--------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2001, 01:59 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
What could cause a enging miss ranging from 1500 RPM to 2000 RPM? I just got finished installing vette heads and headers, still using stock PROM. Does the stock PROM have a too weak of a fuel curve for this setup? OR could it be the EGR, because the heads don't have egr ports? Any other ideas???
It's the heads themselves.
There is another thread going and I just posted about them there.
You'll just be running in circles till ya get burning proms. There are no mechanical only fixes for what you have.
Read up on where ever you see ARAP
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-11-2001, 02:21 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 3.8TransAM:
Seeing what factory calibration will be best for starting to tune my own chips for 91 350 Formula.... ALways see the ARAP for the MAF boys but what is its SD equivalent
When they sent to the SC they had enough info that all the chips were darn good, alot happens in 2 years. that and the 730 gave em alot more room to play with things.
Just start with what ever cal is closest to what your actually running.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-11-2001, 02:24 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MattW:
ok i got on here b4 and i looked at some of the posts and you guys confuse the bajezus outta me.....what do these things do?.....what is the biggest gain i would b able to see on my setup.....ANY advice would help.....even if you call me stupid..atleast i will know not to come back
lol
On the CCC carb stuff like your running just get the ZZ1 engine retrofit instructions, and get the parts they mention, it's the best you can do. BTW, I've runn mid 13s with that chip ecm K/S in a 355 84 Firebird.
--------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-11-2001, 03:38 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Misc answers
http://www.jenvey.co.uk
Advise and FAQ is kinda interesting
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-08-2001, 11:31 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
alright.......
I've save the my old bin which is off an old hypertech chip. And I'm curious how to get the information to tuner cats so I can see what they did different from stock.
when I try to load the info. to tuner cats as a bin it's not showing up as a bin.
How do you go about doing this........
it's got me stumpt.
Find a compare utility, going thru table by table will take along time.
PS. usually not worth the effort anyway, for most aftermarket chips
-----------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 11:00 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by GregWestphal:
This is probably the first post I've actually started but something is bugging me that I can't get off my mind. Last fall, I was running sort-of rich (940-950 mV) since I had just started my own prom-burning, but I still set a record-best of 14.86 at 91 mph in 75-degree dry air (track is at sea level - MIR). Last Friday, I ran a best of 15.5 at 87.2 mph in 68-degree very-humid air with O2's in the 960 range. This is the same chip (except for 2 degrees more timing in the mid-range) I ran a week ago on a chassis dyno. On the dyno, I gained 4 horsepower across the whole powerband (2800 to 5200 rpm) by leaning out my PE by 4% and my O2's were in the 908-912 range. The air then was somewhat humid, but it was also cooler, in the low 50's (degree F).
My questions are: how much power does an engine lose due to humidity? How 'bout air temperature? Would the engine run richer due to hotter and more-humid air since there is less oxygen available to be burned? The only major change since last fall is the replacement of a gutted cat with a high-flow Random Tech cat. I have a hard time believing that it would cost me 30-40 horsepower, especially since the engine still feels very strong, even after 130k miles. Thoughts? Comments?
First off, the addition of water changes the basic formula of reaction. During the compression cycle the heat releases the H2O to simple H and O. H is a fuel and O is an oxidizer, in the right guantity, (ala Space Shuttle). During the reaction prossess they release energy so, there should be a slight gain in HP. trouble is intake tract routing.
Simple timing changes take care of most ambient air temp changes
Remember stock O2 are back pressure sensitive, to some degree, and that other then your running richer then Stoic are meaning less.
All boils down to what the engine wants. By keeping complete notes you find the tuning trends for YOU engine that work.
When FULLY tuned right, ambient temp and hum shouldn't make much of a change, or let me say for any given calibration, that is doumented. From 32dF to 90dF ambient air temps some cars like a variance of 4 degrees, and some 10. Again, it's wnat the engine wants
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 11:08 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Wooten:
I think that is Decel Fuel Cut Off. when you are decelerating, (high map, high speed, or maybe slowing rate of speed), if the ecm does not turn off the fuel it will load up & back fire through the exhaust. kinda like Billy Bob jimmy jacks, 19 and 65 chevrolet pickum up with them thar chery bomb muffins.
thats my cousin btw.
BW
Also, on some applications you need to rework it so that the engine doesn't stall on over run, like with a small converter, on turbo'd motor can be used as an anti-lag strategy.
Ya, my GN has a crackle on overrun. Just means I'm already on the pipe, and don't have to wait around for any **turbo lag**...
------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 11:23 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
This question has been addressed quite a bit, and it has been determined that for SD cars that the ecm does in fact use the MAT to calculate air flow and ultimately the injector pulse width.
But I have been reviewing the hac for MAF cars (as well as Greg Westphal) and no where in the hac can I see any code or tables similar to the SD's MAT Inverse Look Up Tables. The only check of the MAT appears to be as Grumpy has said earlier controls the enabling of the EGR.
I do not have a MAF car, so I cannot test this with a variety of resistors to see if there is affect to the Injector Pulse Widths, but it starting to look like the MAT has no effect in the calculation of air flow for MAF cars. Possibly as Greg has suggested to me in an e-mail, the cooler temp is already accounted for by the way the MAF reads the air flow.
If this is all true, then a relocated MAT is truly a useless mod for MAF cars and a complete waste of money.
couple things:
You have to remember the lastest of the all MAF code was 89 and that had to certified in 85 so we're talking almost 20 year old code.
Detroit has always done enough to get by, so there was no reason for them to get any more anal then necessay.
If you were to look at say a 95 S/C Pontiac hac you'd see where there are timing corrections just on IAT / MAT.
The older MAFs weren't all that accurate, or should I say had that great of resolution. On *some* MAFs they actually run better with the MAF disconneted, in just a Alpha N default mode.
IF the MAF was perfect then the fueling would be right as far as fueling goes. Trouble is you need a timing correction for IAT / MAT for best all weather performance.
On the 148 code there is a IAT timing table that they use in the N/A applications, and yet is 0'd out in the GNs. Figure the logic out in that one. Specially since so many guys tune during hot weather, and then are surprised when they detonate in the cold weather, oh well.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 11:29 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z-BOSS:
I don't think it's running too rich at wot, I didn't mention it's 406 tpi with mass air.
what would add more fuel......increasing the percentages?
406 with MAF, I doubt you'll really ever get it more then OK. I'd be MAP, and with at least 30s if not maybe bigger injectors.
----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2001, 12:35 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mirage2991:
I don't have a scan tool...I checked all sensors I could think that are related to closed loop...haven't check the ECM grounds yet nor the O2 wire connection...but I'm more worry that the ECM is not sending a code, like I would think it should....
Very likely that things will act strange to you, if your still using the 85 ecm. It's the first year TPI, and really was kind lame in my opinion. I'd look into updating to at least a 89 code and ecm set up, or better yet 730.
----------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2001, 12:29 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mike89z:
My car wants to die whenever I put it in gear(auto). The car stutters and the idle drops to 400 which sometimes causes it to die. I was wondering if it was because my timing was too advanced. Could the stall spark feature in the 6E bin help me?
Might try starting all over but with the MAF screens in.
Also, might need a 800 rpm idle speed.
If you have a MAF car just use the 6E, it'e the best of the group
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2001, 07:07 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
][/b]
On my own stuff, I like a 0 IAC at idle. So I set the min idle speed so that the engine will just idle, without stalling. Then noting that rpm set the idle speed to right at that speed, ie on the GN idle speed is 675 (in gear), and has a commanded 650. Course some cars won't idle down smoothly at this rpm but my car does.
Once I have hot idle right, then I slowly back up on idle cold rpm settings. Then the max IAC count.
On several early 747 work arounds were using an electric drill and file to make a less sevrer taper.
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-14-2001, 08:12 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Guys,
I know i have just recieved all of the programming equipment to start my own proms. And i didn't believe how hard the MAF is compared to the SD. Its amazing. I'm going to give the MAF system a while on me to see how is and well i can tune it. If i can't get it working ok i'm going to SD.
I was over reading about the SD swap that Mike Davis wrote about his 85Z(yea i know everybody has seem that already). What i was wondering about is. Where can i get that adapter that he plugged the OEM connector into that changes the plugs over to other plugs. Another question is about the VSS. I have a cable driven tranny, what do i do about that?
Thanks,
Brendan
P.S. I thought this would be the best place to post the question.
Mike and or Dave Zug we making some adapters for doing that, at one time. You wind up having to swap some MAF wires for the MAP stuff so you can flip back and forth, but it's more then a ecm R+R
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-15-2001, 10:02 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mirage2991:
I saw one of this on an 87 GN today, he was running a 93-up MAF on it, hooked to that boxe...what does that do? and would it work on our MAF cars?
There are two of them. One allows for minor fueling changes, and the other timing and fuel changes. A special chip allows reading to 512 grams/sec., so you have full resolution of tuning. Another item is being able to run a LT1 or LS1 MAF.
Won't work on the v8 MAF FBodies
BTW, I run one on my 87 GN and love it..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2001, 07:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Andres:
I just recently installed 24# Ford SVO injectors in my 1988 TPI 350. Does the PROM need to be sent out for reprogramming? I am currently running a TPIS Level 4 PROM. So far the car runs fine at idle and WOT with no rich smell coming from the exhaust. I am running the injectors at 50 psi and the car does not run rich at all, even at idle. If the PROM does have to be reburned, what needs to be done to it? Will I see a noticable difference? Thanks for the help!
Joe
You do need a custom prom for your set up.
Having a proper chip is just magic. Even for a stock car, you can't beleive what a difference getting it right can mean.
------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-16-2001, 06:10 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg '85 T/A:
Sorry, not a PROM question but figured this forum was my best bet -
I was wondering if a TPS or MAT could be wired to an Accel DFI unit AND the factory ECM at the same time. That way, the factory ECM could be retained for EGR, Purge Cannister, A.I.R., etc., for anyone wanting to install DFI and remain emissions-legal. Otherwise, I've been thinking about developing a BASIC Stamp or using a Z-World (if you know what that is)to control all the emissions stuff Accel doesn't.
p.s. I contacted Accel on this and they were rather coy (wanted me to contact an approved DFI installation center). They led me to believe, however, that it was possible.
You'd have to check the impedance of the DFI, very closely. The GM stuff switches pull up resistances on some ecms at different temps for better resolution. So you might get some nonesense readings, I tried running a 747, and 730 (on an ecm bench), and can speach from actually experience that you possibly can run into problems. IF the DFI is real high impedance then no problem.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-09-2001, 10:45 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Are you sure it is for a MAF car? Sounds like it may have been intended for an SD car with that 27256 eprom.
Depending on what's on hand, even GM supplies have used 256s in what are normal 128 applications. Sometimes 2x images, and some times 1/2 is 00s
-----------------------------
Report Post
Old 04-16-2001, 06:19 PM #27
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Stormshadow GTA:
i was reading in the new HPP and they said early tpi engines can get 20 25 horse just by changing the chip.Because they didn't have the obd or odb what ever the emmissions **** is.I seriously question this but can anyone give hp gains from various chips
On some cars yes.
Promming is just like changing jets, and recurving a distributor. NO TWO CARS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE, or DRIVEN THE SAME.
Buying a chip over the phone, is like bolting a Holley on out of the box. Buy a $100-$500 chip and your getting a blueprinted Holley. Neither probably are perfect for your car, and driving style.
Once you get past idle cruise and WOT then you get to a whole different world, of tuning the car for the way you drive, which no aftermarket guy can do, PERIOD.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 04-16-2001, 06:23 PM #28
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Stormshadow GTA:
i was reading in the new HPP and they said early tpi engines can get 20 25 horse just by changing the chip.Because they didn't have the obd or odb what ever the emmissions **** is.I seriously question this but can anyone give hp gains from various chips
On some cars yes.
Promming is just like changing jets, and recurving a distributor. NO TWO CARS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE, or DRIVEN THE SAME.
Buying a chip over the phone, is like bolting a Holley on out of the box. Buy a $100-$500 chip and your getting a blueprinted Holley. Neither probably are perfect for your car, and driving style.
Once you get past idle cruise and WOT then you get to a whole different world, of tuning the car for the way you drive, which no aftermarket guy can do, PERIOD.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2001, 06:17 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I have an 89 six speed Vette with a 396 small block. I'm in the process of tuning the car now. My question is I know that removing screens, removing fins and even using an open air filter lid can cause the MAF to under report airflow, but what about what is behind the MAF? I have a 396 cid motor with a miniram, headers, AFR heads, etc. If everything is stock from the MAF forward, shouldn't the airflow be reported correctly (up until its limit) if the stock MAF tables and scalers are used? Or am I missing something here? I am having problems dialing in the tables correctly with my ported MAF. I respectfully ask to please hold the "Switch to MAP" comments.
Thanks,
Jason
Remember, a MAF reports air flow, in any direction. So an engine that has more reversion really can mess things up. Then to add insult to injury removong the fins screens, can aplify those errors. At this stage your just pasting things together. All you need to do is figure out a MAF that will work with set up, just wire in a LS1 MAF and something to translate the info and then you can approch what you don't want to hear.
-----------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2001, 10:16 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mike89z:
I am trying to use the emulator that I bought but they gave no directions on our application. Has anyone used this thing???
If so whats the deal???
Karl, at Intronics is just now aware of the problem, noone has folloed thru on resolving what the problem is. I have the PP emulator right here, but haven't had enough laptops working at one time to run it on the ecm bench and see exactly what's wrong. If you want the instructions write me off list and I think I have em here still, That or Bill Gates does now LOL
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-20-2001, 06:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by P J Moran:
I've been reading all the posts regarding the now famous ARAP bin. I was under the impression that this was some "secret" image that "someone" managed to get their hands on and post on DIY-EFI. It supposedly contains some special tweaks made by GM engineers so that magazine test drivers got good results during comparisons, etc. I got the impression that this was NOT a stock image at all.
Now, I am reading about this ARAP memcal that you can buy from the dealer. There's a "Corvette" ARAP, etc. These posts suggest that the ARAP code is nothing really special, just has unique stock applications (sorta like an aluminum driveshaft, or 1LE brakes, etc).
What's the real deal? Are we talking about different ARAP's? What the hell does ARAP mean or stand for, anyway? I have ordered the $6E TDF file from TunerCat and am beginning to wonder which ARAP bin I need to start with...
BTW, for comparison purposes, which bin on DIY-EFI is the stock '89 bin?
The ARAP was th emost refined, and best performing of the GM oem chips. It was used in all the magazine cars put forth for evaluation.
If your running a MAF system car it's the best one to start with. This is from years of guys tinkering with em.....
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-25-2001, 07:41 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by unknown_host:
I have a question about the use of chips w/ q-jets in 82's. i have an 82, and i am going to be replacing my 305 w/ a 350, and the carb and stuff to non emmissions. does this chip control anything else i should be worried about changing it out for, such as tranny or what not? thanks
There are numerous items the ecm controls, most importantly the timing.
Get ahold of the ZZZ engine installation manual, and just use the parts and prom they recommend. Those are without a doubt the best bits I've been able to find on a CCC carb set up.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-27-2001, 01:54 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
I'll have to see if i can disable that oil temp switch problem. Can anybody confirm that the ANJF is the correct bin for the vette 6speed?
My info shows it as an auto
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 02:05 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Has anybody ever used a MAF computer with sensor (duh) on a TBI setup?
Thought about it.
But, the issue of MAF *lag* and being a wet manifold just seems like too much to overcome. Least as far as any of the C3 ecms.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 03:10 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BLACK Z:
I also have a 86, I was just wondering which i should use, they are all for the same computer, 2 are for 1 kind of 5 speed and the other 2 are for another. And I beleive they are all for carbed cars. I am going to order one from a company but they need the code and I need top know which chip so I can give them the code. Thanks
Forget the aftermarket stuff. I tried them all some years ago.
The ZZZ retrofit electronics are what you want, they use a particular ecm knock sensor and prom.
Then get Doug Roes Q-Jet book, and then you can get the carb right...
There is a bunch of HP to be found in optimizing the secondary air door opening, needles and hangers.
Also, need to be able to accurately measure performance, even a stop watch. They are really picky.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2001, 08:20 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 88 GTA:
This may be more trouble than it's worth, but I'm just curious if anyone else has thought of this.
Instead of us MAF guys upgrading to SD, why not upgrade to a '94 or '95 LT1 computer? This PCM uses the majority of the same sensors as ours did. The three main areas that would cause problems (that I can think of) are:
1. Different MAF - easily solveable by buying one from a junkyard, or the aftermarket.
2. MAP sensor - This isn't any different than upgrading to SD anyway, personally I'd see if I could get a used SD plenum so I could have it mount on there and look factory.
3. Opti-spark - This is the one problem I'm not sure how to remedy. Does it output, use the same kind of data that our computer controlled distributors do? Can anyone think of a way to make them interface properly?
Overall, if it wasn't for the Opti issue I think it would be an easy swap. And if it could be done we'd have the added benefits of sequential fuel injection, plus the part throttle driveability of a MAF car (with the benefits of the newer 512 g/s type) and the WOT capabilities of a SD car. And I think there is much more flexibility when it comes to tuning the LT1 PCM too.
Anyway, this is just an idea I've been juggling around in my twisted little mind for a while. Thoughts anyone?
Sorry but that's already been looked at. The Optispark queers the whole deal. Also, takes out the SEFI when you take that out, unless you reengineer some sensors.
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2001, 03:10 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
There was an optispark eliminator from Electromotive. I think it uses a crank trigger wheel and some black boxes.
Their unit was on the market then off the market then on the market, I'm not sure if it's even available now, but was $$$.
Also, Bailey eng., makes a LS1 CNP ignition set up for the optispark, FWIW.
I quess I should have qualified the earlier statement with, you can do anything, just takes time and money. I still don't see any real practical affordable DIYer way of doing it.
While so many folks get tied up in this on the fly stuff, you never do enough note taking, and OTF just makes all the easier to miss what the engine is telling ya
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 02:58 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by kaosracing-tx:
My first thought is sequential injection is not necessarily a benefit.
Anyone?
When you start running large injectors it's a huge advantage. On my little 231 I'm running about 1.8 msec idle PWs, with 55#/hr injectors. Trying to get them to run at .9 msec would be a headache since they get erratic at 1.2.... Without hardly much effort guys are running 72s on the 231s.
(ie., 231 GN that is)
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 03:03 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 88 GTA:
How does taking out the Opti take out the SFI? I know that the Opti uses an encoder wheel to get RPM and crank angle, is this the main setback? If so couldn't we just figure out a way to adapt the encoder wheel into out distributor maybe?
The optispark has a high and a low resolition part to it, the low resolution part tells which cylinder is next to fire. Unlike the old SEFI that might take 2 revolutions to synch the SEFI the optispark does it in 1/4 of a crank revolution.
It has 360 slots in it. It's an amazing little disc. Also, spaced out in it is 8 other slots corresponding to 1-8 of the other slots so that the ecm can count both at once to figure out the next cylinder to fire
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2001, 11:16 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I just noticed that my truck has a MAF and a MAP. Do the newer ECM's use both and for what reason?
Jason
Each have their own strong points. Done right, the MAF will supply a slightly more accurate steady state reading then the MAP. The intake tract on a MAF does some signal dampening, and prevents some reversion errors. The MAP allows for much better metering suring sudden transistions. the MAP is always prone to some (small with stock cams) reversion errors
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2001, 08:22 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
8746 doesn't have a built on fan switch and I was thinking about making one. The easiest way I could think is to use the EGR on/off temps AND the EGR on/off speeds. I'd disable the EGR code from being displayed in as an SES and change all the values it effects to zero. Does anybody see any problems with this? I think it's a cool idea considering a lot of us are just disabling it and not doing anything with it. Please let me know your thoughts and other options I could explore. I think I'm really upset that the TPI guys got the ecm controlled fan switch built on and us TBI guys get the crappy in block sensor . I know I'm new at this stuff so if this is really stupid please let me know.
Get a 87 GN Rad Fan switch (closes at 210dF) and have the best available..
----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-27-2001, 09:49 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
Here is what I KNOW:
1)Learn control is OFF in open loop mode.
2)Learn control is OFF during WOT.
BLM's and Integrator are locked at 128 when learn control is OFF. I think this is normal. But the O2 volts were still fluctuating (in closed loop). So, when NOT in the above modes, what would cause learn control to go off? Highwaymode? I don't think I was in highway mode, since my O2 volts were still bouncing, and mostly on the rich side.
A soft harware failure can do that, ie bad MAF. Some failures are marginal and not serious enough to turn on the SES light.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2001, 11:08 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Finially the minirammed 396 in the 89 Vette is runnign good. No issues with backfires and off idle hesitations. Still need to do some WOT tests on a local dyno with a wide band O2. PE is enabled at 40% throttle and block learns are all near 128. It's still a little rough when the throttle is cracked the slightest it can be phyically opened when in first gear. Around 20 gms/sec flow, its rich then shows lean with a little sputtering and then its ok. The whole event is less than 2 seconds but its there. If I richen the MAF table 1 a little on the tail end the block learns go down. I understand that AE fuel is only activated when there is a 4% change in throttle so I guess maybe i have some funky airflow at those very low air speeds.
OK. Now that the car is fun to drive and I'm happy with it. I want to consider the benifits of speed density. Are MAP systems easier to tune part throttle non PE low airflows? I heard that MAF cars are better for idle stabiliy and off idle response. Is this false? What do I gain from speed density? If I have to give up my MPG average and range funtions, I want something in return. Also what memcal do I need for a 7730 ECM
Thanks
MAF are much better ar slow transistions and steady state conditions. The reason being the lag time due to the wire/film in the sensor lagging behind the actual airflow. The MAP is much faster in response.
To me the VE table is a hellva lot easier to work with.
If you were to tiker with the MAF scalers you'd probably get rid of that oddness.
Might try takin a lil timing out, or ramp it out quicker in the Stumble area
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2001, 11:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
If I pick up a manual jet memcal as a holder for my EPROM does it matter if I have an auto tranny? I just want to use the aftermarket memcal for ease of removing the PROM. I guess I am wondering if the limp mode would be specific to the transmission type and/or affected by the type of memcal installed.
This is for a memcal for the 165 ECM, 1989 model year chip.
James
As an educated quess I wouldn't worry about that.
The default for limp home mode on a 165 is Alpha-N, and a very course calibration, but just so happens to be really good in some 165 applications.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-27-2001, 01:50 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73:
I'm trying to find out if it's possible to run twin 2bbl TBI units - the '7747 isn't an option, as Grumpy has proven that the injectors start to cut out at 3k RPM. I seem to remember someone using a TPI computer to run a TBI unit.. or do I have it backwards?
Anyway, is it possible to run a 4 injector setup off of a TPI computer?
Ken
Some guys claim to have run the dual TB TBIs by wiring the injectors in series parrarel. One vendor even sells a chip for doing that, I bought the *magic* chip, and it was just a stock 8D bin.
So in closing there are some P+H TPI 4 cyc applications, but no 4 P+H TBI ecms.
TPI P+Hs are 2.4 ohms
TBI P+Hs are 1.2 ohms
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 01:45 AM #4
Dan W
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Germany
Posts: 658
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy:
Some guys claim to have run the dual TB TBIs by wiring the injectors in series parrarel.
My setup is wired in series. Not series-parallel.
P+H is peak and hold.
------------------
1988 T/A,
9" Ford, 3.50 gears, Auburn posi, 700r4 -w- 2100 converter, 360ci, 9.8:1 cr,
AFR 195 Heads, Weiand #7525 intake, Lunati roller 219/227, .479/.480, 112 LSA
Holley 700cfm 4bbl on TBI truck 7747 computer and chip by Howell-EFI
Dan W is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 03:26 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
My setup is wired in series. Not series-parallel.
P+H is peak and hold.
Slipped a gear and was thinking 730 for a moment,
How well does yours run?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 03:28 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
[quote]Originally posted by Grumpy:
[b] Slipped a gear and was thinking 730 for a moment,
Arrgh, he was asking about a TPI computer, and to run a TPI ecm I was right about the wiring.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2001, 10:25 PM #7
Dan W
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Germany
Posts: 658
iTrader: (0)
LOL, yep you're right, TPI ecm, didnt see that.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2001, 11:23 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
I dont think he did them in parallel... they wont fire at all with the TBI ecm that way. Maybe he did them in series-parallel. Grumpy?
This link might also be worth a look:
http://www.thirdgen.org/gmecm/file6235.txt
I can't say that I've seen any of those symptoms but havent specificly tried to test them. I can say this for certain, it works fine at low bat voltage.
It runs / drives at least as well as a carb but not as good as it could. I've done no eprom work on it yet... its running an ok but less than perfect howell custom chip.
I've tried series and series parallel on 730s, 749s, and 747s.
I've also smoked the 730s trying this.
None gave staisfactory results in my opinion.
What happens on a injecotr diver failure from this stuff is that the injectors get slower to react to rpm changes, and *sound* funny.
The overheating from over loading the injectors happens faster at higher rpm.
YMMV
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-03-2001, 09:20 PM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Saturated Injectors 12-16 ohms
Peak and Hold TPI 2.4
Peak and hold TBI 1.2
You can get by with some honkin Power MOSFETS, thou, I'd be prepared for some failures.
Now,
Saturated suggested operatin times 2-10 msec
Peak and Hold 1-5 msec
Next info is injectors firing strategy, and then min tmes at idle.
The big P+H TBI injectors can get *erratic, and or none linear* at short PWs.
The 747 fires the injectors alternatively on each ignition pulse.
The others once per revolution.
A vacumm referenced FPR might help in this
HTH
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-11-2001, 05:58 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DANIELEK:
I have determined that my car stays in the open loop most of the time.
How'd you determine that?.
If your operatin temp is near 180, that more then enough for C/L enable.
Highest stock CT enable for C/L, that I know of, is 156dF.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 01:33 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mmaker:
88 iroc and a 165 ecm
If i remove my a/c to make spark plug changes easier and to increase airflow to the engine compartment do i have to worry about codes being set.
Also my second fan is supposed to come on when the a/c pressure reaches a threshold. I would like to have both fans come on at the same time (automatically without a manual switch). How do i do this if the ac is removed.
Lastly does anyone have any instructions on removing the a/c? I would like to keep the heater (a cdn eh!). It only gets hot here 10 days a year and i can drive the wifes car if it really gets hot!
dave
No it won't set any codes on removing the A/C
Use a 87 GN radiator fan switch and wire it up to turn on a relay for one fan, and also a second relay for the other. Both fans wo on at 205-210 that way.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 01:56 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 90Iroc-Zee:
i have a 5spd 90 iroc and i want to burn my own prom, but seeing as i can regulate my own shift points and what not, which is what i thought a chip mainly did, will it help me out? i was talking to my friends dad who is really experienced with older cars and familiar with our cars, he said a chip makes a difference in reply to my request to beat my friends 97 cobra...so, if i get the software and what not from what i read, could i drop a few ets from it? im very good with computers so learning wouldnt take me long. how significant of a drop in ets do you think i can experience with the right burning?
I could improve the performance of your car by doing some chip work. I don't know if you could thou. It takes time effort and tuning experience to get a car right. Dun right a chip probably can improve the performance of your car. Done very well, you'd never believe how miserable a stock chip is for drivibility.
Course you need to check local laws about street use of a modified calibration
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 02:01 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
First off, I'll say I know little about trannies. I was reading through my service manual last night and the trans section said that there's a vacuum sensor that controls TCC lockup. Is this a MAP type vacuum sensor or just a solenoid (700-R4)? If it's a MAP type would some code changes allow a MAF car have a MAP? Just a crazy idea.
Chiilton, or Haynes?.
Whichever, it's dead wrong, as far as efi cars. They use % TPS and vehicle speed sensor(and gear / brake switches) (with a coolant temp enable).
-----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 05:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by cp87GTA:
Can someone identify this memcal for me? Or tell me where I can find it. I have ordered Andrews cable and the pocket programer. Am going to try and start burning a chip this weekend. If this memcal won't work, can I use it untill I get the right combination? And then change the burned chip to a known 305 or 350 chip. Does the eprom have a calibration for the knock sensor, or are they located on the small chips on the memcal? Thanks.
ACKD is for a 88 2.5 Manual
Nope, not even close.
The electronic filtering for the K/S is on the memcal. What gets done with that info., is in the code.
-------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-12-2001, 04:57 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Smog Equipment Delete Final Answer
There seems to be alot of confusion about Smog Equipment.
First, in the US., it is a federal law that the emission control devises can not be modified or removed. While not generally enforced, that varies by state, and county. In some other countries, they have no or min emission laws. Heck up until last year leaded fuel was available in some GM marketplaces.
DIY chipping is at your own risk, and is for off road, and educational purposes.
Now about deleting stuff, and this is 3rd gen F Body specific:
Air pump, in open loop supplies air to the exhuast manifold to promote after burning of any fuel, and that also helps to warm up the O2 sensor. In closed loop it diverts air to the catalytic converter, to help with the chemical reaction therein. So at no time does it affect what the ecm sees O2 wise.
possible gains for it's removal, 5-8 HP, and that's at high rpm, in cruise or idle not real meaningful gains.
EGR:
You can get stung by this one.
If you mechanically remove it, then be absolutely sure the ecm is ignoring it. Flip the diagnostic flag, and set the enable temp to like 254. I personally never use the 255 as in some testing years ago it would sometimes add a hiccup to a running engine.
I have found no MPG increase, and while in theaory it should it never has for me. You will generate more NOX to a certain degree, but depending on the amount of overlap the cam has will effect that alot more. Engines self EGR, due to the overalp of the cam.
Exhuast back pressure can open an EGR valve. So if you have it on, and bypassed in code,, then you can have some strange problems.
PCV:
Only the misinformed will remove it. Period. What you might want to do is build a oil vapor air seperator to make sure no oil fumes enter the engine, oil in a combustion chamber will lead to detonation.
Charcoal Canister:
No HP lose or gain, by removing it.
Sealed fuel tank:
Can be a problem on high HP applications.
14.7 AFR:
Is for the catalytic converter, period.
It has nothing to do with what the engine wants. You can run slightly leaner at idle and cruise then that just fine. Touble is you need a Wide Band O2 sensor to know where you are, the oem O2 sensor is a swiching type, trying to read any thing other then richer or leaner then 14.7 is a market ploy, and followed by the *herd* type of tuner.
Thermostats:
The **HI** operating temps., while emission related, have little to do performance wise. Lower temp., gets you a slighty richer, more advance timing spec, and Seat of the Pants that feels good.
If in doubt PLEASE get a copy of SAE paper 960497.
O2 sensors:
Stick with AC, or GM. Other brands can have switching AFRs of 15.2, and have durability problems. Some have known problems, and have corrected them, but there are many junk ones still in the system.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 10:52 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DM91RS:
Grumpy, your comment on oxy sensors being wide band are not has me wondering what are the sensors that come with the popular air-fuel ratio guages such as the Edelbrock? Are these useful and if they aren't what should one be using, a scanner?
The cheapest WB meter I've heard of costs $600.
the cyber, K+M, Edelrock, are all just slightly better then reading tea leafs.
Even if you use a WB, you still have to learn plug reading.
Ain't no easy answers.
If you look in the archives here I posted how EGT effects the O2 output voltage
---------------------------
Old 06-11-2001, 09:20 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
I soldered in the zif socket exactly as shown in the article using the same socket as well. When I try and install the z-f socketed mem-cal in the ECM the hold down by the zif socket will not completely close. I know this has been dealt with in a previous post but I was unable to find it. I think somebody ended up grinding down something but I hope it wasn't the latch in the ECM. I installed the zif correctly as shown in the article.
How can this be remedied?
James
I always have to take an exacto knife and trim the ZIF Socket. Never had a problem after trimming.
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-13-2001, 07:06 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MR. KIDD:
How do you measure duty cycles with a snap on scanner. ALSO where do you get the definistions for the terms you guys are using for prom burning. Thanks for all replys MR KIDD
Just compare the actual pulse with with the possible. At 6,000 rpm you have 10 msec posssible duration, if the PW is 8 msec, then you have an 80% duty cycle. at 600 rpm 100 msec. If you have a PW of 2 you have a 2% duty cycle.
Just have to read and get familiar with the language, the is a FAQ at DIY_EFI but the site is down for the moment.
-----------------------
Old 06-13-2001, 02:02 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by prscarf:
should the ve table be altered on blms which show rich on decel? my injector duty cycle does not go to "0" on decel and stays at about 1.2. is there something i have to do to change this so they do shutdown on decel?
And why would you want to?
In a truck application, which that PCM was designed for, you have to have rather immediate recovery from over run to HP. using DFCO to 0, would let the combustion chambers cool, and on reaccleration it might hesitate.
If you want you can play with the lower end of the VE tables, that might help.
Not all code has a DFCO, you *might* have one, I haven't seen a hac of that.
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-13-2001, 01:51 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
Does ANYONE here have any experience with the Holly Projection??? I have done some of that, and it worked out "OK" Took me a year to start from scratch and get a decent running car. (I put it on a 1967 Buick Riviera with a 430ci Engine...
If it has an IAC it will take the driver out, just a matter of time (I've heard of 3 doing that) cost to fox $310
If none IAC injector driver might leave you stranded.
NOTHING is as reliable as a GM ecm.
OK, isn't in my book. It's perfect or junk.
I can afford to carry a spare, really doubtful I'll get stranded, and I like to Drive all over.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-13-2001, 04:14 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I know the 5 speed PROM does not control the Overdrive, so I would lose that, is there anything else I should be aware of that could cause damage.
The reason I am asking is I have an 87 Computer & chip from an HO 305 with a 5 speed from a second car. I want to see if I get a significant performance improvement over my corrrent 86 Auto Chip.
Doubt there will be much difference, and frying is a real possibility.
Primary difference will be the IAC, since it acts a lil different for a manual tranny then an auto.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 01:37 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JJ IROC:
Does anyone know where I can get an adapter to hook up to an EPROM burner that would burn the chip through the memcal?
Kalmaker in australlia does the conversion, for the 808s, costs about $700 US.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Old 06-14-2001, 01:06 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by PETE:
i have a question can i use a 350 auto chip and adjust the minimum air rate or will it continue to give me problems now that it's a 5 speed?the 305 5speed chip works wonderfully but i noticed there is a lack of power up top where the 350 chip doesn't fall off(pulse width maybe)at all but is very harsh at idle up down up down etc.above 1500 the 350 auto chip is fine anything below it and it's a really bad idle what do you guys think?
STOP.
Neither are for the AL heads!
They take a totally different advance curve.
You need to get into prom burning to get that combo right.
The AL heads (small chamber) make best power at like 26-28d timing.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-13-2001, 07:12 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
Has anyone ever asked you if you'd think about writing a book on prom burnin'??? Also BTW-any ideas on the ARAP makin for longer crank times? If you write it, they will come....with $$$, at least I sure would.
I'm not in this for the money.
I could sell chips and probably make a small fortune, but not all folks are motivated by money.
I really like hot rods, and for a while it seemed like they were on there way out, since no one had many clues about EFI and ecms. I like to think in some small way I've helped reverse that trend
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-13-2001, 04:17 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobalos:
Ok, I tell you what I am goign to do for you. You write the book. You get it printed. you market it. You have the checks sent to me. & what I will do for you is to spend the money on my car & tell you how much fun it was & how fast it goes every time I get around to it. What about that deal. am i such a nice guy or what? can you say best friend? as a bonus I will even let you put my name on the book so that I get some of the publicity & get to go on "Regis & whoever it is today" & help YOU sell more books.
Your best friend & major spounge,
Right after I get done with getting my car perfect .....
Still a few things I want to try.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2001, 11:46 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
I need a hex editor, free is preferable. What should I use and where do I get it? Thanks.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/breakpoint
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 10:47 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mmaker:
I wonder what happens if the CAT does not get the air - probably less than complete burn of the excess gases going thru there? Hard to imagine that extra oxygen would be needed at those temps.
Dave
The matrix starts to collapse, from the heat.
they need the extra O2 or the service life gets real short.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2001, 01:14 AM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
I am going to be putting on a Mac catalytic converter and they said I could just weld the AIR tube shut if I wanted to.
How do the 4th gen 2-way cats differ from our 3-way cats internally?
I bought an AIR pump delete pulley and a 4th gen electric AIR pump with plans of removing the PEDES valve, but now I'm not so sure...
Did they say it would last as long with it welded shut?
4ths use a 2 way cat?, where'd you hear that?
The 4ths have a much better calibration, and the newer ones with the OBDII stuff are really good. That's why they can get away with a part time air pump.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2001, 01:16 AM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 91B4C jacob:
Cats that dont need air injection just run at a lower temp (and are less efficent) plus I think that there more restrictive to help them heat up not sure though
sorry about the cemistry lesson
jacob
Where did you get that info.?
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2001, 12:57 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by chooch-88formula:
It seems like no one out there wants to write a program that will work with my car.
Brent called it right.
Ya know for years all we had to work with is the 160.
You don't have to have a the triple wammy double throw down state of the art stuff to go fast.
There are lots of 9 sec GNs using a 160 data stream
It still boils down to testing and tuning
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-13-2001, 05:53 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ragin'87:
i'm interested in getting involved in prom burning. I will be getting the software, hardware and other necessary components, however I haven't seen anything for the TBI computer? Specifically the 92 L03 computer, 5spd manual. I can't find any definition files, or bins, stock or otherwise. I have looked in the archives, but I may just be missing it. Can anyone help point me in the right direction. note: I've read TRAXION's intro to prom burning.. several times in fact.. contemplated printing it out a few times.
all of this comes from me planning ahead. for my senior design project(starting mechanical engineering major in a few months.. already sort of know what I want to do for my senior design project.) I will be turning the RS into the Camaro GM should have built. for the car tinkering to be considered design I actually have to have proof of why and how I did things.. so far with my dad and grandfather's(both MEs.. gramps is a PHD ME PE) advice actually designing the camshaft profile and either making my own engine management system, or completely reprogramming the existing system would be great places to start.
so I have 4 years to get good at this, but so far I can't find a place to start. for now I'd like to use the factory computer, and even the TBI as induction(with modifications where I learn it is necessary), but I may find out down the road that I can do other things more efficiently/cheaper.. I'm ramblin' on now, but any advice is greatly appreciated. I usually only pursue with such "vigor" things that are really important to me.. so far my camaro's and my guitars have been the only thing to gain my interests. Thanks in advance.
Anthony
What's everyone doing this now?.
Anyway
www.diy-efi.org is down right now, but on the gmecm list is another guy that did a project similiar to your's. Might lurk over there looking for anything you can with 747 in it, the 747 is an ecm similiar to your's but without air temp corection
try www.tunercat.com and look at the mask 42 info, and link to Bruces page would be a start
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2001, 01:02 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by gravitar:
Does that go for the list too, or just the web page? It seemed odd that GMECM list traffic had come to a screeching halt lately..
Server sneezeed again.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2001, 08:43 AM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
Youre right, I dont. You know everything about someone from a small quote dont ya, you genius you.
Greg, I think that someone from the diy-efi knew somebody and got their fingers on it.
You'd be amazed who lurks there......
***** several anwers
The AL heads make for quite a different animal, for timing (when using non oem cams). Also, can run alot less timing at WOT, and if you smooth out the chambers really make a difference.
If I had to cal a man trannied 89 I'd use the ARAP, and then run a fill compare for all the misc stuff like IAC settings. Then work off of that.
The magazine cars are almost pre production so there are some months between evaluation and release to the production line. Once the ARAP was found to work so well, then it went into alot of production cars.
What GM has to fight in the EPA arena is no minor thing. If you look at some of the stuff, you'd swear someone was drunk, until you look at the options and then some of it is brillant.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2001, 11:00 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg '85 T/A:
Soooooo, how exactly did this ARAP .bin become "publicly" available?????
Hmm, was a little over 2 years ago. A friend of mine let me in on what the deal was with it. It's been publicly available since late 88, just no one had ID'd what it was.
------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2001, 06:53 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I'm getting a Fuel pump relay malfunction code and a high MAP voltage. I've been having problems with the cars voltage, lights dim from 13.8v to 12.3 and it's always doing that under 1000rpm. I think it could be a bad ground on the fuel pump relay but I don't know, does this sound right? Now on to my next problem, MAP voltage being too high, what is that? I have an extra map sensor sitting right next to me so I'm going to swap that in although the readings on Diacom showed that the MAP is working. Now onto my most serious problem, black smoke!
The car is running WAY too rich and the strange thing is that I've been turning down the BPW thinking this should lean the whole system out. I was wrong, it runs rich in both closed and open loop. The only other thing I did was adjust the pump shot. I'm going to swap in the new MAP but what is up with the running SO rich? I turned the BPW down from 120 to 110 and still runs rich enough to pump out black smoke when I play with the throttle. Need sugestions, btw, I'm working with the anlu.bin as a base and I haven't touched any of the actual tables, just the constants for now.
ECM reads the voltage on the lead to pump wire, sounds like a poor connection.
At syty.org they had a diagnostic chart for the MAP systems, try that first.
Too high map makes it too rich, for openers.
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2001, 06:49 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by camaro6spd:
ok. I am printing out Traxions into to prom burning but I have other questions. Glenn91L98GTA told me when I install the RamJet I could keep the MAF setup(see TPI message board under "RamJet Setup..." He told me that I needed to disable the 9th injector and use a 89 ARAP BIN. Were can I obtain one of these and how much. umm....I am JUST starting to learn this stuff b/c I expect the TPI to RamJet Swap in a year and does anyone have any idea of what will be involved in programing this ARAP BIN? I will probably be here asking lots and lots of questions so bare with me. Thanks.
I'd suggest reading all the archived stuff I could find if I were you.
Each and ever engine in the world is unique, and combined with your driving style, makes things diffficult for what will work for your combo.. There is a tremendous abount of info here, just start at the beginning and read thru it. Then GMECM, as a min..
Information is Power
Takes Power to go fast
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2001, 07:06 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by GlennS87:
I had a local tuner burn a custom chip.
Any ideas??
Thanks
Glenn
He's not a tuner if he can't cure that.
Better read up on the material, and do em yourself.
If he ain't got a clue about chips, he shouldn't be passing himself off as knowing so, shame to melt an engine of your's for him to learn something
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-18-2001, 03:27 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott C:
I need some opinions please. I have just finished a complete swap from a 305TBI to all new 350TPI in my '92 RS. I currently have GM TPI ecm harness and Accel-DFI "adapter harness" which will allow me to plug in the DFI and go.
Should I spend $500-$600 on the DFI computer or just buy/program a custom chip? It sounds silly, but The DFI computer is not cheap in my mind! My current mods are not anything radical, but an ATI intercooled supercharger is coming next summer. Any thoughts?
You can support 400HP easily with a stock ecm, questions about DIF belong somewhere else.
Using a syclone chip and ecm, with handle a supercharger.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-18-2001, 03:29 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TunedPort350:
Also, you can tune it (DFI) on the fly with a laptop without needing to remove a PROM, burn it, and replace. You can see your changes take effect instantly and Calmap does have data logging features to collect information such as O2 voltage, TPS voltage etc...
This past weekend saw lots of DFIs, and others, ya tune on the fly and fly right by optimum.
tune on the fly write no notes, and take 4x as long to dial the car in.
------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-18-2001, 03:36 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
I really don't understand EGR. I have been told that an EGR duty cycle of over 75% is in error. I had a code 32 yesterday, and today TTS reads that my EGR duty cycle is 100%. Without fully understanding EGR, this data is useless to me. All I know is that it allow exhaust gas to be recirculated into the intake. To what purpose and effect? I have no idea. Anyone?
They introduce exhaust back into the engine as a way to lower combustion chamber temps. and reduce the generation of NOX (leads to smog formation).
Engines to a certain degree are self egr'ing since the intakes and exhuasts overlap and exhuast by it's having backpressure will slightly dilute the incoming charge. Adding more cam, can in effect add too much egr when using the EGR valve's stock settings.
Yes, you can have a 100% EGR duty cycle. At 100% DC you might be diluting the intake charge 10% at low RPM.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-18-2001, 06:23 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
Thanks Grumpy!
From a tuning perspective, how much egr is too much? I do have a bigger cam than stock, but not by too much. It's only thrown a code 32 once, and that was yesterday before it started dropping a cylinder! Personally, I think the cylinder dropping has more to do with wiring than anything. I think one of my injector harnesses may have come loose. The car is also notorious for ignition problems. I tell you, it doesn't *want* to run!
I don't do diagnostics by mail, so can't and won't say on what you have going on with that.
On the EGR is a matter of what your wanting to do.
In theory, there should be no HP loses by running it, and mileage should be better with it enabled. Trouble is in the real world I've seen neither. If you really want to tinker then start low and watch you TPS per MPH. Less being better, or if higher then must accompany lower PWs, and equal *cruise performance*
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-18-2001, 05:44 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by GMTech:
Well, I think I disagree. If you look at the stock timing for a 305, its 0*, but if you look in the chip, its set at 6*. So the computer will use a base timing of 6* ASSUMING that the dist is set at TDC (0*). Now if you crank your distributer to 6*, and the computer thinks it is advancing it to 6*, 6+6=12.
Various manuals manuals have all sorts of errors in them. some on purpose, some out of a writter not knowing any engineering (ie magazine writters are classic examples of this.
Timing on the engine should match the chip period.
---------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-11-2001, 02:12 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
I just helped someone with a ZZ4, LT4 hot cam, and TPI. His IAC worked like stock. He's pulling around the same vacuum as me.
I have a less lumpy cam and a Edeljunk base and runners on a 355 L98. My IAC cannot control the idle. If I apply more load, like the A/C, the IAC goes wide open and barely helps the idle. My IAC passages (at least some) are open because a shot of carb cleaner into the IAC hole stimbles the engine, but I wonder if the Edelcrap IAC passages are not as big as stock - or maybe just partially blocked. With as much work as I put in to make that overpriced junk fit and perform, blocked IAC passages wouldn't surprise me. Any thoughts/experiences?
Is the IAC really good?.
Do the full retact and then the unplug while idling and measure the difference to make sure it's moving. The scanner just reports commanded numbers.
try richer at idle, maybe the timing is way off. You have to play alot at times to get the idle right.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-11-2001, 06:53 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DM91RS:
Grumpy, is there any need to reset the computer by pulling power after resetting timing?
Depending on what all you've been doing it will relearn the fueling corrections quicker. While minor, changing timing changes the engine vac..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-11-2001, 09:17 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by hectorsn:
This may not be the "right" thing to do but maybe you need to open the blades a little more to get some additional airflow at idle. This is assuming that the TB is very clean. Many production cars have a hole drilled in the blades for more air at idle but the same throttle angle (for tps), just like we've been doing to carbs all these years. If the IAC counts are excessive, this may bring them down to a reasonable level. If they are where they're supposed to be than I would say that you have another problem, specifically timing like Grumpy said. Even not so lumpy cams like additional timing at idle.
The GN has (2) 1/8" holes in the butterfly, that I added. I had to do that to get the min, and max TPS volts right. Yes, for various reasons SOME cams take alot of air at idle.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2001, 06:55 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
I'm at a livable compromise right now. The TB is open enough to idle beautifully (except when cold). When I turn on the A/C, the IAC goes wide open and does nothing for the idle. On cold startup, the IAC goes wide open and doesn't really help. At full throttle, the IAC goes wide open. She's a little rich in open loop idle and spark is set up for max vacuum. I'll check the IAC to see if it's moving.
Might be too lean
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2001, 07:01 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MR. KIDD:
I getting ready to order prom burning equipment the victim I will be trying to learn to tune; THE STEPCHILD 6870. How much trouble is this child going to be for a very green beginner.MR. KIDD Norfolk VA. Anyone in this area that could give some hands on help would be very helpful.Thanks for all or any replys.
The absolute best you'll be able to do is OK. The ecm is slow, the program primitive, the communication rate slow.
The reason it's an orphan is that no one wants one, when there are better ecms available.
I'd strongly suggest you research what is possible. The easy way ain't easy if it's a headache
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-19-2001, 06:11 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BOWTYE8:
I will give my thoughts on this.
The 870 will do OK. let me firstsay this.
I ran a 14.3 with a 99.00 performance resource chip. with that smae chip and engine mods I ran a best 11.98. The 85 is very forgiving. My bud runs 11.55 in his 85 383 vette with the 870. My other bud runs 11.8's with a 350,afr190,219cam and the rest of the normal bolt ons.
The problem will be learning HOW TO TUNE with the 85 ecm. data is very slow. its gives no timing advance or retard info. very,very general.
Also when linking with diacom(not shure on other data loggers)
Daicom adds 3-6 degrees of timing when linked. Well its not diacom but the load on the serial data,ecm....
I did confirm this a while back with Jim formato.
The tuning table are also very general. You dont use the injector constant like 86 up. You have to tweak the base LV8 fuel constants.
If you wanted to spend $$$ on a formato or ed wright chip then that may work fine for you but if learning how to program for yourself I would upgrade to the 165 or 7730.
Dennis
OK so what did they or you actually do to the chip?.
This is about DIY Prom stuff, while you had great luck with an aftermarket chip that really doesn't mean much in the light of what this list is about.
C3s can be worked with, but without a full hac, it's real difficult. There were lots of GN running 10s at Bowling Green last weekend with the ol 148, but it's been a long road to figure the ecm out to get them to do that.
Toss in old MAFs are falling out of the sytem now, and to continue with an ecm that doesn't have the sensors to go with it is a slippery slope.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2000, 05:55 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by John Millican:
I just got my Diacom+ used, no books, just cable and disk.
I cannot link to the vehicle in ALDL mode, only diagnostic mode. The program mentioned a special adapter may be needed. Is there anyway around this? I have heard that the 1989 Camaro ECM doesn't have this limitation.
Here's my VIN 1G1FP87F7GL198075
There is just so much more info in ALDL mode I can't access and it's driving me crazy.
Diacom was written back when a 386 was state of the art.
I use mine with an ancient 486/25 monochrome.
The newer fast ones have problems linking and stayng linked.
You also want to use normal mode.
I con't remember the numbers but they moved the serial data pin on the ALDLs hence the two cables.
There is a list related to the syclones that show the non compatible ones.
Bad brain fade today maybe linked at wwww.syty.com
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2000, 08:59 AM #20
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TRAXION:
I just got the part numbers off of my cables. The one that goes INTO the laptop is the same part number that you mention ... 91003. However, the part number of the cable that connects to the ALDL port is 91007 and reads ...
91007
RINDA
Technologies
GM 1982 & Up
READ SAFETY
INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USE
For reference, I am running a Dell Latitude 486/50MHz laptop. I also have ANOTHER small connector supplied by Diacom. It is about 1-inch in length and plugs IN BETWEEN the Diacom cable that goes into the laptop and the Diacom cable that goes to the ALDL port. I thought that this was the special 91006 'adapter'.
Tim
My 91006 looks just like the 91007
In my lil world the 91007 is the C3
and the 6 the P4
(Ithink?)
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-15-2000, 12:04 PM #25
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by John Millican:
I agree, I made the same cable and it does not connect in ALDL mode. If you find out about the adapter let us know please....
I have **seen** the net cable work just fine. Have used it on C3s P4s and the 808 stuff.
Some computers and the way they clock things (as I'm told) do have a problem with being too fast, and when they slow them down then work. The sy guys went thur this some time ago.
the difference in the adapters is just the location for the serial data line.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-15-2000, 02:38 PM #26
TRAXION
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,840
Car: Toys 'R Us Big Wheel
Engine: Two Size 10 Feet
Transmission: Direct Foot Pedal Drive
iTrader: (0)
I called Diacom Today.
The 91007 cable will not allow you to link in ALDL mode to any TPI 165 ECM. You must utilize the 91006 cable or the special adapter that fits between the 91007 and the cable that goes to the laptop. They stopped making this small adapter a long time ago and now only make the 91006 in its place. However, even my small adapter doesn't seem to solve the problem. My question becomes ... why did Rinda replace the small in-line adapter that I now have with the new 91006 full ALDL adapter. Seems to me that they probably encountered problems with the in-line adapter. No sure. They are suppose to be e-mailing me instructions just to make sure that my 91007 adapter is functioning properly.
Anyhow ... for you TPI guys ... the 91007 adapter will not work in ALDL mode (and probably not all the time in Diagnostic mode). You need the special 91006 adapter.
Tim
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-15-2000, 09:31 PM #28
Craig Moates
Senior Member
Craig Moates's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Posts: 1,490
Car: 87 T/A
Engine: 441 SBC 12.5:1 0.630" Lift
Transmission: T-56
iTrader: (0)
The 165 is the ECM of this breed that REQUIRES a 10K-ohm resistor across the A-B pins of the ALDL. Otherwise the communication is identical hardware-wise for 165's (86-89) versus 730's (90-92). I'd be willing to bet a buck that if you put a resistor across the A-B and used your later-model cable that it would link up. I'm guessing that's the difference in the interface adapters. Probably not first shot, but after a couple of tries. What have you got to lose? Nothing.
...and if you really can't get it to work and they can't supply you with the hardware to make it work, screw Diacom and get an adapter from AKM and use 'free' software. That'll work.
Since I've never used Diacom, I can't comment on the software. It's got to be good though, everyone raves and drones and heralds it as the best thing since sliced cheese.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2000, 07:34 PM #34
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_ZZ3:
I am glad this topic came up. I have tried this as well with no success. I found a schematic for the diacom type cables and I was going to try an idea.
Since the 165 use the 8160 baud, I was going to cross the 8160 baud wire into the 8192 baud wire (which does not exist on the 165) so diacom "thinks" it is getting the faster signal.
I figured that was what the "special" cable was all about.
I recall seeing a turbo buick and he had something plugged right on to his ECM and then to the paralell port on his laptop. Very fast frame rate. He said it hooked to the dianostic port right on the circuit board, so there was access to real time data.
Sounded interesting.
Mark.
The Buicks have Directscan available to them (I use it all the time, if the engine is on it running) anyway it plugs into the edge card on the ecm lets you run at 19 frames a second. Running in dial mode is too cool, and there are several work in progrss for DIY stuff like this.
Ithink you want www.chuengineering.com
gets you there
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2000, 01:30 PM #36
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by John Millican:
I just got my Diacom+ used, no books, just cable and disk.
I cannot link to the vehicle in ALDL mode, only diagnostic mode. The program mentioned a special adapter may be needed. Is there anyway around this? I have heard that the 1989 Camaro ECM doesn't have this limitation.
Here's my VIN 1G1FP87F7GL198075
There is just so much more info in ALDL mode I can't access and it's driving me crazy.
And don't forget the 165 can be either fast or slow. As I recall the 89 (6E) is the fast rate one. ECMs the same program code differences enable the different rate as I recall
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2001, 05:50 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I have one of each 1227165, 16198259, which one is better? or are they exactly the same. I know the 16198259 is a remanufactured 1227165. Does that make it better or not?
The newer the better.
165s have a reputation for poor solder joints. The failure rate is really low, but there are so many out there that they seem to be weaker then others.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2001, 03:32 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
I am currently running Ford 30# injectors with my injector constant set at 32. The lower VE's are pretty close, but my upper VE's are lean. There's not enough room to add enough fuel to the upper table (BLM's are around 150, and the stock table has values close to 100), so I have to change the constant. The question is: What rough percentage am I looking at per point of injector constant so I can get the best ballpark to start with.
What's happening is the injectors are different in how they behave, from the stock ones, since the scale is off further at one end then the other. Your just going to have to play with the fuel pressure injector constant to get close.
Having a large displacement engine is also making matters worse.
You know what the best sure is.
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-20-2001, 06:31 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JJ IROC:
Does anyone know what how many grams per second the stock mass air flow sensor should range between idle and wot? I seem to be getting a couple different readings and I would like to know which ones to program into the chip. Thanks.
5-8 at idle,
230-255 at WOT.
Will vary alot by engine, tune, and brand of MAF. Not all MAFs read the same
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-20-2001, 11:02 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JJ IROC:
I kind of figured that but I seem to be getting to about 3,500 RPM and this thing totally bogs out. I'm only getting between 119 and 116 at wot. It's the stock bosch yet that came on my 1987 350 Camaro. I just don't understand why I'm not getting more. The fuel pressure isn't dropping off. I just don't know what else to check.
Sounds like the MAF is dead.
Try driving the car with the MAF disconnected, if it runs as well or better the MAF is dead.
Tap on the MAF with the motor running, if it misses MAF is dead.
Leave the screens in the next one. You want more flow go to the 1227730 in the 90-92 SD setup
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2001, 03:37 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
Here is a thought for someone. I have done a little, ok very little, research on taking the EPROM and using an EEPROM instead. I thought about taking the EEPROM solder wires on it. The wires would come straight out the top, so you could still plug the chip right into your ECM. These wires would go into a plug, like a Female serial plug on your computer.
Then take a Male Serial Plug and run another set of wires that would plug right into the pocket programmer. Since The Pocket programmer seems to automatically erase the EEPROM, it just might work.
Then you would not need to be continually changing chips.
I also thought about a toggle switch to put on the ECM power to cut any power into it.
Think about it.
You need to isolate the eeprom from the ecm, not just remove power from it.
I don't think the microprocessor would like seeing power, on the read pins,
I maybe wrong here, but this is what I understand of it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2001, 03:28 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JJ IROC:
I took the the stock MAF out of the system and the car ran worse but it also did the same thing as it did with the MAF hooked up. Totally bogged at 3,500 RPM. I didn't get a code until I hooked it back up and I got a MAF burn off error. Any other suggestions?
What about the tap test?.
Any codes other then the burn off one?.
Starting to sound like a junk ecm.
If no scanner then going to have to go sensor by sensor to be sure all is well with everything.
You sure this is isn't a tune up problem?
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2001, 05:55 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
Instead of trying to modify my current holder, I know I have seen pix of the Jet unit. Where can I get a holder so I can plug in my created chips??
I just purchased my Pocket Programmer & 5 29C256 chips. Now all I need is the socket for my car.
thanks
John
If you mean the green board that allows you to piggy back eproms, there is no universal answer. Jet Hyper and other just use what available, at the time. No way to tell what your getting without opening the box.
If I understand your question
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 01:36 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I was looking at some posts about Pump Shot vs. differential TPS and in the *.tdf file that I got (3 weeks old). The table only goes up to 12.5 TPS%. I used the tunercat tdf file editor and made the table the correct size (now up to 25%). I was looking at a bunch of other tables and it looks like they've all been cut short from max. Is this just MY tdf file or is it the way everybody has gotten them? If anybody needs help "enlarging" the tables, e-mail me.
Wouldn't it make sense to mention this to tunercat?, so he can make what ever changes are needed.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-22-2001, 10:23 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Guys,
When and for how long is the actual Start up spark tables put into effect? How long after the engine is started?
Brendan
Depends by ecm, and code.
On some it decays out in just a few seconds, others it seems to be slower, as in till the O2 is warm.
You'd really have to read thru a hac of what your running to get the specifics.
--------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-18-2001, 06:35 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Knock sensing- Final Answer
The knock sensor is a diagnostic aid.
It's not intended to be a tuning aid.
It's not meant to replace plug reading.
Plug reading will tell you if you have real detonation or not.
Based on what the plugs tell you will dictate your path to cure the problem.
If it's false knock there are a million reasons for it, from broken engine mounts to too stiff of suspension, fractured serpentine belts, etc.
On the MEFI in marine applications, the cure is a 45d pipe fitting with 1/4 or is it 3/8 male and female threads on it.
You want to have it working right, if for street use.
A fast decay rate is usually always helpful.
Have alot of possible retard in case there is an unseen problem.
Getting Mickey Mouse with a K/S can really bite you unless you know what your doing.
Again, weither tuning Carbs, EFI, an aftermarket ecm, you need to be able to read plugs. just no way around it!!!.
On my car I have 24d timing limits, and a 200% recovery rate. YMWV. But, you have to get the mechanicals right....
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-18-2001, 11:27 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobalos:
hmmmmmmmm, intersting in light of the conversation we had the other day, re tuning timing curves & the measurement of gain or loss.
BW
What do I need to clarify?.
The world is a constantly changing place, and my data base is expanding so, to some degree my statments do vary, thou, generally not too much or often.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-22-2001, 10:20 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by e-man:
Hey grumpy, would you know if the 90 and up knock sensor for a TPI350 is less sensitive than the 89 sensor they are different part numbers?
The 90 uses a 730 ecm, and the K/S stuff is on the memcal, so it's basically a different set up.
On the GM Marine applications, the use a 45d male to female fitting as a standoff for the K/S to make it less sensitive. Several guys have been doing that with excellent results.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-31-2003, 10:16 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Homer
Grumpy,
I don't get it. If you're supposed to read plugs instead of use a knock sensor to tune your car, how do you tell where on your spark map the knock is occuring? I guess you could use the oxygen sensor to tune the fuel, but how do you tune the spark?
thanks
You start with a very conservative timing table and then slowly row by row add timing, measure performance, and read the plugs.
Doing the timing table, for optimine best takes a whole bunch of time.
Folks like datalogging, and then back tracking from there, but that ain't the BEST way.
The K/S in oem form are designed to listen for major tip-in detonation / ping, and then up to about 3K RPM. The stock calibration is in part designed to be over rich above that to avoid detonation, and to keep the converter happy, at over 3K RPM. When you start tuning in that range, and making serious HP and solely rely on the K/S you can get into real problems, ie knocking the edges off the pistons.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2003, 09:27 AM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87_TA
How well can you really trust plug raeding when todays fuels have so much garbage in them?
You'll find that once you get things right, plugs read just like they did 20 years ago. the games to keep the plugs looking so clean and lasting so long are mostly in the calibration.
Lean Cruise, running at Stoic, and with alot more advance then they need all help to defeat plug readings. And the cals are really taylored for catalytic converters.
Once you get to running Open Loop, and have things tuned correctly you'll see them read much better. MUCH!
Of course this is Off Road Only.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2001, 05:53 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 90Form350:
I had my 350 rebuilt in my 90 Formula 350, and it has a 212/212 duration and a .430/.430 lift. Other than that it is stock. My engine vacuum is around 14 in, and my car idles like crap because the MAP sensor thinks theres a load on the engine when there isnt. Do u guys think i need to order a custom chip?
No.
You need how to learn to program your own.
Have you ever heard of a distributor or carb that was perfect out of the box?.
Once you start swappin parts, you have a unique engine combination, and there aren't any one size fits all calibrations that will make it right.
Just like carbs, you have to tune it get it right
---------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-22-2001, 10:32 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
OK, bought my diacom+, with all the cables. In the User's guide they mention several software programs for graphing after you save to disk. What have you'll found to work best for that? Excel? Paradox? Now I need to find a cheap laptop-already did a search on system requirements. Also I'm modifying an ARAP bin. As I understand it Diacom wants a vin for the correct yr and model before it will link? I remember reading about that a while ago, but couldn't find it on a search. And no, I'm not asking for anyone's vin! I've been using an Auto-xray, but it will only save about 20sec. worth of data, so hopefully this will help me finish nailing down my int across all the cells-so close now....
It just wants some good vin info. using 0s for the last 6 digits is fine.
You can recall and display things as graphs in the Plus program, no need for any other software to look at the datalogging
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-22-2001, 10:29 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
I've noticed a few folk here who have the same problem as me-living at altitude. It gets old driving down the hill to double check my changes. Does anyone have an estimate of how much 7,000ft alt. will change my int. after I lock the blm at 128???? If I had a # to shoot for up here it would make it so much easier... I do drive down the hill a fair amount so would like to make sure I don't run it lean down there, I'd rather have it a little on the rich side up here. Already tuned a two-stroke motorcycle perfect for home;then went down the hill and ran it hard-the results were ugly......
86 406?
MAF with a 165, right.
The MAF should be rather accurate at various altitudes, BUT I've never worked on a 7K elevation calibration, It would seem to be you'd want the 128s at the lower altitudes, and let it self correct for the "normal" high altitude.
depending on what this 406 you might want to reevaluate the injector sizing, you'll need a large dynamic range for being in extremes like you have.
You'd have to double check the code, but if there is an exhuast back pressure cal., and you have a real low back pressure system that may come into play.
Sorry for the vaque and generic answers but best quess I can come up with
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-23-2001, 08:57 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mmaker:
My iac counts range from 130 to as high as 160 when i am driving faster than 50 mph - is that within the norm.
Yes.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-22-2001, 10:37 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jfulford:
Hello. I've got an 89 T/A, 305 TPI that I have done some minor mods to, as well as just adding 4.10 gears. I'm using the 89Z305*.bin file with the 89v4.ecu(Winbin).
Are there any variables/array/flags with the above bin/ecu that I can take advantage of using 4.10's?
I'm using a pocket programmer with 27C128's.
Would Tunercat be any better for this(ie, more options)?
thanx
jeff
jlfulfor@icon-stl.net
With the change in gearing you'll be able to add some timing faster, and enrichen the fuel some. THOU, there are some exceptions to that.
With the 4.1s the engine will never see as much of a load as it did before, so making heat maybe a problem. By heat I mean HP in the combustion chamber.
It's easy to over gear a car and have it slow down, because it revs so easily that it can't make any serious heat. It heat that is converted into mechanical energy, ie HP
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-22-2001, 10:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by prscarf:
I have been tuning my ve tables for my 4x4 with the blm locked to 128 and using the int. for tuning. I have the lower part of the table nailed and it is the higher ve kpa I am having trouble with. I have the wot delay set at a max and the bypass wot delay set at max. so I cannot go into pe. In doing this I am very careful on acceleration and always have the laptop scanner by my side. I am not going into pe mode at any time because the afr never drops from 14.7. with this said, I notice when I squeeze the peddle I notice the int will increase lean through the areas which are in the lower kpa which I have already set to 128. My question is, To set the upper ve table should I be:
-accelerating to a fixed point tps until I achieve a higher holding kpa for set period of time until the int stops changing
-or when you are actually going up in tps, rpm, map and using all these points then tune the upper ve table.
note: i am doing a very mild acceleration no wot by any means!
I noticed at a fixed tps, map, and rpm I can tune the lower ve table and this is how I set my lower ve table but when I accelerate slowly I notice the areas which I already tuned to 128 are now lean. Which is the correct method? I hope I am making myself clear. My bpw is 120.
should my integrator change lean on very mild acceleration if the ve is correct?
Should pumpshot prevent leaning int. on initial acceleration?
Does anybody have pump shot vs diff tps that I can use for reference.
This is my pumpshot table vs diff tps
%tps usec added
0.0 61
3.1 366
6.3 732
9.4 1343
12.5 2380
15.6 4028
18.8 6470
21.9 9705
25.0 13184
383 stroker, 64cc 23deg trickflow heads c/w edlebrock performer intake and adapter, cam is an extreme 4x4 comp. Cam. 12-235-2 grind ( .447/.462 lift, duration 210 218 lift @50, 111 lobe separation) . unit has hypr. Flattop floating pistons, eagle cast crank, 5.7eagle rods. 10.2:1 comp. Headers c/w 2.5? flowmaster exhaust. 16147060 pcm, $85def , 454tbi 80lb injectors.
[This message has been edited by prscarf (edited June 22, 2001).]
I don't understand why blocking out the PE after you have the lower stuff done.
The 128 lock isn't my favorite way of doing things, so I'm not real clear on where your heading with that, at other then the C/L areas.
For the high side of the VE table start rich with some timing taken out. The slowly lean and advance the timing for best performance, and watch the plugs for signs of detonation.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-24-2001, 09:37 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by rockind78:
I have access to a 1227165 ECM for my V8 TPI swap. It cam out of a non-camaro/firebird (I have noticed the ECM labels differ) so I am pretty sure it was a V6 car that it cam out of. My question is:
Can a V6 PROM be reprogrammed for a V8 or do I need a V8 PROM to start with?
Forgive me if this is a totally stupid question but I am very ignorant on this particular subject matter. Thanks!
You will need to get a v8 memcal.
There is cylinder select in the memcal, for the hardware.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-24-2001, 09:35 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86Chicken:
I have the 1227302 chip in my 86 2.8L 'Bird. The 1226870 chip was also used that year. I found a 1226870 ECM in the junkyard this weekend from an 85 2.8L Camaro.
The question is: Can I just plug the 870 in place of the 302? The connectors are the same and it came from the same engine type. Also the 870 was used in 86 on my engine (VIN S). The only difference in the cars was the the tranny(auto vs. 5sp).
I am guessing that it would work but would like to hear from someone who knows.
The reason for this is that I haven't seen anyone that has the def files for he 302 and I would like to try my hand at chip programming.
Thanks much!
Dale
I show in 86 Vin S using at 6870 or 7302, Then the Vin W uses 6870, 7302, or 7730.
The trouble is that I know of no hacs for the 6 cyl 6870 or 7302.
If you go with the 730 and use the 8D hac it has cylinder select etc so it with work could be adapted.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-25-2001, 08:09 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86Chicken:
So you are saying that the easiest way for me to start programming my own chips is to re-wire te car for the 7730 SD system?
Sounds like too much effort for too little gain on a 15 yr old V6. I get about 30mpg now, could this be improved significantly.I know that improvements take a long time to make, but is it possible?
Thanks for the help!
Dale
There are no editors I know of for what you have. So unless you reverse engineer the code, your at the corner of walk and don't walk.
I do chips because their fun, and a challenge, what makes it worth while to you is up to you. There is always the possibility that there are no gains to be made. Thou, learning the process can come into play further down the road. EFI is here to stay.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-23-2001, 12:45 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodB:
How lean is it safeto in this table without getting in trouble with the engine?
Depends on your exact combo..
You'll have to do plug checks.
FWIW, rarely can you run a V8 leaner then 15.8 at cruise. But even at that you can melt the motor.
-------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-23-2001, 12:59 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
[b]Ok, here is what I did, I pluged in a manual computer chip into my automatic car. It worked fine, even went into Overdrive.
I was wondering, WHY, I thought the Manual chips were different and were programmed not to control overdrive & Convertor Lockup. I am new at this, and NEXT week Woo Hoo I am getting my Pocket programmer, my 5 chips, and Tuner Cat, so I can start to modify my own chips.
[b]
When you start playing games with stuff, you very well might get burnt. If you want to read thur the entire hac that's one thing, but playing swap and match isn't always healthy.
You need to build on a good known, if you had a few years experience, and a couple thousand chips under your belt that would be a different matter.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-25-2001, 02:01 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
From how I understand what would actually happen by not locking the torque convertor, your assumptions are correct that it would overheat the transmission. What is happening is when you do not lock up the torque convertor, the engine has to compensate by reving higher, therefore also spinning the transmission faster, and because the trans is not locked up the internal sliding friction is increased, and therefore more heat is created. All things are also amplified because the engine is reving higher.
John
If you were to look at a 700R4 you'll also notice the tranny cooler circuit does not *apply* until the TCC locks.
Internal sliding friction, from a fluid coupling?.
I found no difference in operating temps going from a lock up TCC to a non lock up, once the correct modes were made so the tranny cooler circuit was on all the time.
----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-25-2001, 09:57 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
This may be a question for another section, but I feel that it applies to burning proms. How quickly can I read the plugs after installing them? I believe I have predetination on the higher RPMs, this only happen once or twice and I didn't have the scan tool hooked up. My wife pissed me off at the mall last week so I got on it pretty hard. It sounded like a rattle under the front end, which I think is knock. I pulled a plug today and it looked fine to me, not wet, not black, it still looked fresh but I have only been through a tank since the vette heads were installed. Specs: 88 L98 Vette heads, SLP headers, 12 BDC, ARAP with no VATS and EGR. Thanks!
Never vent with your right foot....
Both Preignition, and detonation are close enough to be read the same way.
Either will immediately generate really tiny specs of black or silver balls. The best way to kinda guage the size of these balls are to think of what a fly turd would look like.
Black is from carbon being blown off the chamber or piston. Silver is AL from the piston. On some border line cases a gray appearance is borderline detonation.
All three need to de dealt with immediately.
Remember a Knock Sensor is just an acoustic device, and rather meaningless in many circumstances.
Dealing with detonation, is a very time consuming part of tuning.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-23-2001, 12:51 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark 89Formula:
Inspired by this forum, I recently jumped into the DIY PROM world. Like many folks I started with ARAP as the baseline. One thing I noticed was that the car exhibited extended crank times and did not idle well in open loop compared to the stock APYU3516 bin. Attempts to smooth out open loop via tweaking the open loop air-fuel ratio and timing vs coolant temp tables were unsuccessful.
After reading that other folks having the same problem, I copied all the flags, constants, and tables from my custom ARAP variant back into the original APYU3516 bin. Problem solved! Even though I didn't change the data values when I copied them, "something" changed for the better. I don't know what that "something" is but I do know it worked.
My experience suggests that if you're experiencing extended crank times and poor running in open loop with ARAP, you ought to copy your custom settings back into another GM 6E bin file for comparison.
Gauging anything on a small sampling is impossible to do.
When you just blanket copy things, you don't learn what the actual problem is/was.
Gets ya right back to runs OK, vs runs right.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-25-2001, 06:09 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by gravitar:
So you're saying that your aftermarket memcal doesn't have the other twe chips, and your car runs?!
While they are chips, they are just convenient packaging for resistors, they can use laser cut resistors, and when you're doing them by the million that's the way to go. On the protype memcals, there are resistors and a few dodads soldered in place. So you don't have to actually have chips in there just the right resistors.
BTW, laser cutting the resistors can make them very accurate, inlike carbon types.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-26-2001, 03:10 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
Is it easier to setup a laptop as a scan tool and a prom burner, so that while testing your prom you can make changes to fuel or timing without going home everytime? Does anyone do this now? I guess it's a matter of getting a DC coverter for the devices.
I perfer to do them at home so that I have time to document things in my notes ACCURATELY, so I can notice trends, and get ideas about what to do. I've burnt a bunch of chips, and the more I do the more I rely on past notes. You'll never regret good notes 2-3-4 years from now when you change something, and want to see what you did way back when.
That you can take to the bank
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-26-2001, 03:17 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by chriscobal:
my friend told me about this board, im a volkswagen owner but a fan of all cars. im wondering if anyone out there has any experience burning proms for vehicles with bosch engine management. im buying a laptop today and will start to research what software and equipment to use. i skimmed traxion's article and im not intimidated yet, but i know it will be more advanced than it sounds on paper. i have experience working with databases, some computer programming, and ive done a little work on cars so will i find the technical side a little easier than most? any help you could offer is greatly appreciated
I doubt you'll find anything in common with Bosch and GM.
Might hang out at DIY_EFI.org for a while there have been guys working on Bosch stuff from time to time there
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2001, 07:19 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BenDoe:
I'm getting close enought on the VE tables to think i can start doing the timing on on my 91 Z28. I'm using a laptop and craig moates free software and was wondering how i go about tuning the timing. Thanks.
Take a bin.
Make sure the timing matches the base timing in the chip.
Subtract 3d from all the table entries.
Move the timing around in the idle areas, and see if that improves the idle.
then try driving,
you shouldn't see any retard at any time. If so do some data logging to find out where it's occuring.
In the cruise areas, work the timing and fuel up and down to get the min TPS for a given road speed. 1.0v at 70ish is acceptable.
The start feeding some timing into WOT, ALL THE TIME MEASURING Performance, GUESSING WILL MELT A MOTOR. Buttometers are a waste of time, general rules
AL head (58cc chambers) 28d
Small Chamber Iron 32ish
Large MAYBE as much as 34.
Often with EFI you don't need as much timing as a carb'd motor.
Then you want to take as much timing out as fast as possible without having a sag from cruise to WOT.
Then during overrun you want very little timing
Just off of the top of my head a general shape would be (ie about 2,400 rpm)
20K/Pa 100K/Pa
18 36 38 34 32 27 28 26
If this was with AL heads probably be close
assuming no WOT spark adder.
this is just a pointer to get ya going
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2001, 11:39 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobalos:
comments/answers Grumpy?
BW
Assuming your starting with a low amount of timing make a base line pass with whatever timer your going to use. The start bumping the up, watching for detonation on the plugs, and noting the performance changes. going in 2d steps should be enough of a change to see a difference in performance, if it flattens off add some fuel. If you see a trace of detonation see if adding a little fuel cures that. If not then take the timing out, and the fuel, you just added.
just have to wor back and forth on timing and fuel, not easy way to get there. Then when you think your done take 2d out at WOT, and see what changes there are. If none then leave the calibration alone. The old flat head ford tuning idea of max timing, and max fuel are just outdated. If your running for money or have money to waste then the balls to the wall tuning is fine, but not on the street. There are just tooooo many variable on the street
Overrun, closed throttle at any engine speed higher then idle
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-26-2001, 03:22 PM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MonteCarSlow:
I have been doing this, but I don't notice a change in TPS voltage over a 4 degree range. I do however see a change in MAP voltage. If the TPS is not changing, should I aim for lowest MAP voltage?
I have a heavy car with lots of gearing (2000rpm@55mph), 5.0L/TPI with AL heads (seems to like 41 degrees at cruise, or about 3 less then stock AL head 350 timing)
You missed the boat somewhere,
the Vette AL D port heads like lots of cruise timing and a very limited amount of WOT timing.
It's working time and fuel together. But the post was timing specific.
If your running a distributor application then you have to look at what the cutoff timing advance is in the ecm. Some distributor applications have a limit of 41d total timing, in the math.
I've seen some cars respond well to as much as 51d timing but that is reserved for DIS stuff.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 07:21 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 3504mula:
I read most of Traxion's introduction and I must admit it seems pretty complicated, but possible. But I definitely do not have money for a laptop, so without diacom would I be lost trying to get my calibration right on? I have had problems with idle since I bought my car and I am pretty sick of it. I heard Speed density can be a pain to work on when it comes to idle. Would I be better off trying to get a custom prom from someone like Ed Wright? Any info, opinions, or experiences would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Used laptops can be found for $75. Deals can be found on scanners, you have to get out and look for them thou.
If you can't afford to tune the car, just leave it stock then.
I heard the world is flat.
Rumors, and wife's tales prevail. just look at the crap the mags reprint year after year.
They are mindless, and those that blindly repeat the same info., are brain dead.
The only thing hard about EFI, is getting brave and actually doing it. Like all forms of tuning, it takes imformation and time to get it right.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 07:25 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
I'm getting serious about getting my setup tuned in (see sig.), so I've got the laptop, about to order the AKM cable, and download Craig's software. Most of the work had already been done on this car by Scroggin-Dickey when I got it and the previous owner doesn't understand much about what all was done. Tonight I decided to see what chip is in it, here's whats on the prom:
Z-Industries, Inc.
87 350 cam/TA TPI 180
Auto 9EF4 EOBB2
My question is, will this chip present any problems in scanning or cabling? I'm assuming it should be compatible with the previous 165, therefore will work with Craig's software. My plan is to learn what's going on, then move into burning my own prom. Man, this is exciting stuff!!
First thing is throw that chip away. Or just use it while your figuring out what really needs done.
Start with a *fresh* sheet of paper (bin).
Get a new or used memcal that is close to what you have and start with that, and just read thur this site, about what you need to do, I mean all the threads, then start
-----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-12-2001, 04:17 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Damon:
I've never burned a chip in my life. I've played with aftermarket EFI setups a little, but reprogramming stock stuff is unknown territory for me. I DO have extensive experience with scan tools like Diacom and I understand all of the terminology and what all the different parts of a GM EFI setup do.
My brother and I are screwing together a Mini-Rammed 30 lb-injected 400 for his 87 GTA. It's almost for sure the chip we get for it (which will be custom from TPIS) will not be dead-on right. And that's a GREAT excuse for me playing with it!
What software/hardware do I need to get started? I've got a laptop laying around doing nothing that I'd like to put to use, if I could.
What kinda costs are involved with doing myself?
THanks in advance.
To be brutally honest,
forget the 1227165 ecm you have and go to the 90-92 Speed Density 1227730.
The 400 will use alot more air then the 350 the MAF was designed to work on. With the 165 your guaranteed to run out of resolution in the calibration.
Please read as many of the posts as you can sand here, and I've tried to do kinda a FAQ with the term **finnal answer** in posting.
While sown for the moment go to DIY_EFI.org, and snag a copy of the archives from incoming, both gmecm, and diy
from www.tunercat.com there is a link to Bruces Page
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-26-2001, 07:21 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Damon:
Grumpy- we already installed a larger TPIS MAF sensor on the motor, planning for more airflow early on. We just weren't expecting to put the 400 in this summer (the original 350 decided to yak a rod unexpectedly). Does this help the "end of adjustment range" problem or make no difference? We figured the stock MAF would saturate pretty easy. I know this one will flow a lot more air before it's topped out, too, but does that buy me anyting in tuning?
Ya but how linear is it?.
You might have a real mess trying to get the MAF scalers, and tables right.
If your really serious about HP you might look at the 90-92 Speed Density set up. With speed density there is no maxing the sensor out.
Yes, resolution in the tables is the name of the game, period. Pegging you air flow readings will always make for a poor calibration. Might be OK to run, but the motor will be running in compromised areas of tune.
Nothing against MAFs, I run one, but there was alot of research that went into running a LS1 MAF on a GN.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-25-2001, 05:59 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87ColdAirIroc-Z:
i know i need a 27C128 but which one should i buy? i am unsure of all the different options. I am going to be using a modified ARAP.bin
thanks
jake
To date, I haven't seen one that wouldn't work. I just get used *pulls* from surplus places. I wait til a group buy goes down and stock up when the price is right.
You might read up on the 29256s EEPROMs and double load your 128 bin into that.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 05:31 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
Does the ECM "learn" as you dirve the car? I think I read this in a ford manaual some time ago. If our ECMs can learn, is this function of the ECM seperate from the prom? Or does the prom have total control over settings?? Just wondering.
Don't even try to relate ford to gm ecms.
The GM ecms learn slight fuel corrections to maintain an average 14.7:1 AFR.
PCMs which are a different animal have some actual self tuning.
--------------------------------
Old 06-26-2001, 03:06 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Christos:
Hey guys, I was reading another post on the tech engine forum, and saw the link to here: http://www.gmtips.com/3rd-degree/dox/tips/ecm/prom.htm
I own a 1986 IROC Camaro, and it has given me every engine code that i see listed on that page before, when none of the sensors were malfunctioning. How can i get a replacement ECU or whatever for my 1986 IROC Camaro, Vin F, 305 TPI?
I really doubt if i call a chevy dealership, if they will know what the hell im talking about. Is there a certain part number i need to know to get a replacement prom?
Thanks!!
All the prom numbers are given on that URL. If you local gm parts department is that bad try autozombies, or a junk yard. Your oem ecm part no. was a 1227165. Thou it may differ if it has been replaced, updated ones carry new part nos.
--------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 05:37 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by zippy:
new to chip programming. problem is a 4.3 with an searching idle due to what seems too low of vacuum at the 550 programmed factory idle. i haven't found any info on editing this chip. i'd like to edit the chip or copy a 1303 edelbrock chip (factory is amrw). not even sure what the chip type is. i was guessing 2732a, but i don't believe that to be right. any help here would be great.
OK, I looked at my crystal ball, and still can't see what you're working on. 4.3 what?. What ecm?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-26-2001, 09:20 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Warlock:
I am close to putting my new engine in my 88 corvette (manual)(165 & $32B). The new setup consists of 383 @ 10.1:1 c/r, superram base and plenum, LPE(Accel) 219 cam,hooker headers, ford 30# injectors, 1.6 roller rockers, and AFR190 heads.
By my calcs, I *SHOULD* be running around 35# injectors, so if I bump my fuel pressure up to 54psi, I should be there. I need to then change the injector constant to 35. It is a MAF system, so I should be relatively ok? With the higher c/r, should I take out some of the timing?
I know I am going to have to do a lot of tuning once I get it running, but I'd want it to be able to start right up and then run for 15-20 mins @ 2500 rpms per my engine builder's break in recommendations.
Any other tips?
Bonus Qs that are not important yet but will be...When I start tuning am I better off switching to the $6E and ARAP code even though I may lose some of my digital dash toys? Or should I switch to the SD 730? Or stick w/ what I have?
8x35=280 or 560 HP at 100% DC
You just might run out of PW to get a decent idle.
You'll be pegging the MAF wayy tooo early to be useful in tuning.
The 730 is you only real option, and you might have to forgo that for an aftermarket one and peak and hold to get a decent idle
You might revisit my final amswer postings, in one I talked about injectors ecms, and there limits
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2001, 11:28 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
Anybody here actually have the Transtronics emulator? Is it easy to use? Work well? $90 isn't chicken scratch... but I'm interested!
Intronics ain't it?
Anyway if you mean the Pocket Programmer one, noone I know has gotten it to work.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-26-2001, 03:14 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Man you guys make this sound easy! The Formato prom I bought was way off. Block learns all 108. Just loaded with fuel. I have tried the methods described on the list but am totally confused. If I chart data, I get different BLM values for the same RPM and MAP. IE at say 2000 RPM 24 MAP, I have a BLM of 128 at one data point and 138 at another. Should I take the average BLM for a group of RPM's and MAP's? Should I lock the block learn to 128 and tune by the integer?
I need some guidance here. I tapped the Formato prom (couldn't fool me!) and their method of VE tuning goes against everthing I learned so I'm convinced that I have to get out of this terrible mess myself.
TIA
JN
[This message has been edited by 89vette (edited June 26, 2001).]
Compare that one to the oem one and split the difference and see what that gets you.
Very often it's easier to start with a stock bin., and go from there, rather then figure out what some of the aftermarket guys have done.
Raising the VE entry increases fuel.
Just note where there is too much fuel, and start dropping the numbers for roughing things out other then WOT I generally change things 10% till I go too far. This is with the aid of a scanner and reading plugs
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
-----------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 07:35 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
OK, I've got everything else for tuning but a wide band o2 sensor. I know they're not cheap, but what prices and where have you'll seen them? I'm looking at the "real" ones, not the "cheapies" that Summit etc. lists for sale. I know I could just read the plugs, but it would be nice to know exatly where I'm at. Then all's I'd need is a dyno....naw I don't think my wife would quite go for that one.....
There is a DIY one pending at gmecm, but it's not quite ready for prime time yet.
As things stand right now the only one I would consider is the Bailey Eng one, and it's about a grand the last time I checked, many moons ago. There is a link to them from the gnttype.org under vendors or suppliers.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 05:24 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
We dont have a close enough wrecking yard with even a TPI camaro, so is there a better place than the dealer to get one? Is $220 to much?
You cna always try eBay. I've bought a number of TPI stuff from there. Just have to watch the bidding wars.
If you're changing ecms, do yourself a favor and go with the 730. Having one MAF die will cover all the expenses of the swap.
According to Some sources the 85 MAF is actually different then the 86-89, I've never tried that, just a headsup.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2001, 03:58 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Seems like a vacuum leak to me if you introduce a hole after the MAF sensor.
Laminar baiundary layer thicknesses vary with Air Flow. Ducting's resistance to airflow varies,
You have to try and keep things linear as possible. If you look at the scalers and tables for a stock MAF, you'll see how much corrections there are for a oem one, you'll never get right by cobbiing stuff together.
All the easy ways have been tried numerous times, and they didn't work.
If you want to get higher airflows, then just use a SD det up.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2001, 04:10 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I happen to have 2 CAL-PAK's, BOTH are from 1986, BOTH are the AMU8958 chip, and Both have the date (week) code 8612 on them. They are completely different in the way they perform. Don't get me wrong, they both suk, but one is worse than the other.
I Used the SAME ECM for Both.
I would think they would be at least similar. It goes to show you that all these chips are NOT the same. Even when they are made close to the same date.
Go fig...
Static electricity can nuke one.
A weak gate in one can do it.
considering there are 128,000 tiny light bulbs in there, it's amazing more don't fail.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2001, 04:07 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by -=Jeff=-:
I have copies of the ECM pinouts for the F body and the Y body for these ECMs. What I really want to know if there is a crossreference for each and every pin betwen the two. The Y body has a few more sensors and I would guess the the 730 ECM will have the allowable functions but I cannot find info on which pins it will be..
Thanks
If you got to the DIY_EFI stire you should be able to get the wiring diagrams, and then just compare them.
There is at least one difference that I know of, the 727 has one more output since it has been used to control a wastegate.
Be advised if you already don't know the connectors are totally different between the two ecms
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2001, 07:15 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89406Iroc:
I have a 406w/miniram 30lb. injectors heads cam headers blah blah. I was wondering what you guys suggest for the MAF sensor.The person at Ed Wright didn't seem to think it was much of a concern but I heard they have low flow #'s. The motor is fairly stout so I don't want to restrict the induction after spending this much time and money. Thanks
Why run one at all?.
Use a 90 SD ecm, and be done with it.
every 1% intake restriction, will cost you 2% HP.
You can play all kinds of screwy games with them, but they all destroy the linearity of the output. Once you do that the absolute best you can do is that it runs OK. OK is alot different then right in my book.
Old 06-28-2001, 10:19 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
[quote][b]From what I was told the computer goes into open loop at WOT. So the MAF sensor readings would have no effect.
Open Loop just means ignoring the O2.
What is involved in switching to a 90 ECM?
Rewiring, and adding a MAP sensor, links to doing it are in the archives.
If the stock MAF sensor flows 658cfm.
Not even that.
then there wasen't any point in me going to a 58mm throttle body, 230/238@.050 w.539/.558 roller cam. I should have looked into this closer before but I guess Hindsight is always 20/20.
Yep.
You can run OK, but again that ain't to be confused with right.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2001, 03:54 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CanadianBeast:
Thanks for the link.
You need to get the promgrammer 98, since it is a full hac, editor.
I'd use GMEPro for the 749 editing.
730 and 749 use the same PCB, so th pinouts differences are minor.
yes you can use the 749 N/A, but the VE tables have rather poor resolution that way (FWIW). Making boost lets you use the whole table and the car *feels* better.
In the DIY_EFI, and GMECM acrhives there is more data.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2001, 06:29 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CanadianBeast:
When did the GM-ECM list start? I can only find archives for 1999 and half of 2000.
Also in some of the old posts on the 749 in the archives there is a lot of talk about peak and hold injectors. I think I need a basic lesson. Are there different types of injectors? Do they require different ECM's to run them. What type of injectors do I have? Will they work with a 749 ECM running a SYTY code?
Thanks
There are several types of injectors, other then by discharge nozzle.
First is Saturated, they have about 16 ohms resistance, and like to run in the 2-10 millisecond range.
Then there is Peak+Hold TPI type injectors, that are 2.4 ohms, and like to run in the 1-5 msec range.
Then TBI Peak and Holds that are 1.2 ohms, and again like to run in the 1-5 msec range.
You can see where the current draw for the various resistances will vary alot.
The 749 has the guts in it to run 6-8 saturated injectors, or 4 TPI P+H injectors, like when they use it in Quad 4 applications, just have to switch some pins around and add two jumpers.
Yes, you have to match what injectors run off of what ecm. There are lots of *funny* things gm has done. Like the 730 and 165 have been used in both saturated injector mode, and in single TBI applications.
One of the limits of the oem stuff is that you have to change drivers or use an external driver board to run P+H injectors. Like in mine, I had to have it sent out to change the drivers from saturated to P+H, so I can run 55#/hr. injectors. At one time all the large injectors were P+H. The other thing is suggested operating times. Running a saturated injector at less then 1 msec at idle is about impossible, whereas with a P+H they can easily go under 1msec.
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2001, 04:04 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by chooch-88formula:
ok here is a short story long...
Originally : 1228063, TBI, 305, auto.
Now: 350(still putting in, will be done Friday)(and still has to go through the breakin process)
I was told to buy a 7747 because it is easier to program. so i got one and The pocket programmer will be here tomarrow, and the extra eproms will be here Sat. One DIY ftp site I say a JPG that was labeled "747 to 165". mmmmmmmmm (I would like The faster baud rate since I haven't changed anything yet.)
Well not sure what else you need to know, but what do ya think? If ya look at the pics they seem to be the same (wire for wire) But will it program the same?
Thanks
The 165 only has one injector driver, and was only used with a 4 cyl TBI.
So no you can't run a v8 TBI off of it.
All of the C3 series of ecms have very similiar wiring.
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2001, 06:33 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by evilho7810:
Would the new chip help me pass emmissions they cut the standards in half and I think i'm going to fail. Did any of you guys notice a difference in emmissions? I have the IM240 dyno test.
****Properly**** tuned shouldn't make much if a difference, it's the engine mods that'll get ya. Too much overlap is hard to get thru the test.
There are a bunch of 10 sec GNs that do the test all the time, again with the cam qualifier.
With alot of overlap, the engine has alot od self indused EGR. Aot of EGR takes extra fuel, and timing to run at idle, both if which are bad for passing the test.
A good new converter can work miracles.
Again there are other items to have right.
At *least* a 180 thermostat.
Fresh oil, and correct PCV valve (they vary alot even by brand).
Having the engine throughly warmed up.
New Plug wires, and plugs, and the rest of the system in tip top shape.
If your on top of your game, the test should be a drive thru.. But lots of folks let things slide, or figure it runs OK, and never worry about having it RIGHT.
I know I'm harping on things again,
clean air, and hot rods should be alot closer to being mutual rather then exclusive.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2001, 10:04 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by evilho7810:
The car is 99% stock. So you couldn't burn an "emmissions chip" that was lean and then change it back to the normal one.
Lean doesn't mean passing emissions. Too lean drives the HC out of sight.
If the chips uses closed loop, it's going to be running at 14.7 anyway.
Try to get it pretested and figure out what to do.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2001, 10:00 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by tohigh4you:
there is a guy selling a halltech computer for custom programming of ecm....has anyone over here had any experience with these setups....i am wondering how versatile they are....can i adjust fan turn on/off.....speedo recal.....things like that.....thanks in advance!
Some are antiques,
if one of the current ones not too bad, but nothing like an oem. And if it fails getting a spare on Saturday is difficult.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-30-2001, 10:18 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89bonestockiroc:
First off, I apologize for this not being 100% prom related. It is in way though. I am in the process of putting a new engine my 89 iroc and I am about to order my prom burning equipment. My question actually has to do with converting my 89maf system to speed density. I am doing this so that I can burn a more accurate prom and it is recommended by most you. I already got the ecm and harness and am trying to aquire a prom right now. I know I need to get a map sensor and a different knock sensor, but do I have to get a different intake manifold so that I can mount the map sensor? Or will it go into my 89maf manifold somewhere? I only asked this here because I know a lot of you have done this to make you prom burning simpler and you know a lot about this stuff.
Thanks,
Mike
Yoou need only to run a vac line to the MAP sensor, no special machining needed.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2001, 07:52 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89bonestockiroc:
Which vacume line does it hook to? Do I need to get a Y adapter and just split one off from somewhere?
thanks,
Mike
A constant vac source.
T-ing into something, like the fuel pressure regulator. Don't T into anything that had air flow thru it like the PCV or brake booster
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2001, 02:56 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HighHopes85:
After some suggestions, I set closed loop enable temp pretty high so I could monitor my O2 at idle in park. Now my O2 was pretty high but the P730 article put me at ease and made me realize what was going on (more radical cam...need to lower VE at low RPM's, etc).
Are there any rules of thumb for using open loop to tune certain parameters (ie idle speed) or now that I know why I was rich, should I just re-enable closed loop and start doing D'com runs and make educated changes to the VE maps?
Right now it looks like I am just going to make an stab in the dark as to where my idle should be. On a carb, I used to tune the mixture screws for the highest vacuum reading possible. Is there any similar way to use a method like this for finding a good idle set point to program?
One other question. Has anyone ever tuned their chip so it ran great in nice weather but once winter came around, it was awful? If so, what are some areas I should keep in mind to keep that from happening? I would assume IAT has a large role in that, but it isn't all there, is it?
BTW, 85 w/ a 730 conversion successfully completed! Thanks, -Matt-
If there is not IAT timing correction table, then you'll always be a little off in summer or winter depending on when you tuned.
VE tables are always a cut and try routine. There are jus no absolutes, unless your staying in open loop, and then a WB would be an aid. You can wind up with some really odd tables depending on how touchy you get.
Don't forget that you have AE stuff to play with, if needed
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2001, 07:56 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HighHopes85:
Thanks Grumpy. No WB here so I guess I will enable closed loop. Hopefully I will be able to get it on a Dyno w/ a WB and record some baselines shortly. -Matt-
BTW, I have a WB and in general don't even use it. They are a nice option, but not hardly mandatory
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2001, 06:36 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CanadianBeast:
I just bought one of these OOpics, (Building a tranny Brake delay box) www.oopic.com , from BGmicro and I was looking at there website and I found this project,
http://www.oopic.com/airfuelmixturegauge.htm
It looks like he is trying to do the same thing that DIY EGOR is doing.
Grumpy I remember you saying that a simpler version of DIY EGOR was coming. Is it Finished? Are you going to make it public when your done? I looked into building the original but It was beyond my ability, a newer simplier version would be great.
We have a Printed Circuit Board, and things are just going slow, which seems about normal when the weather is nice.
Steve was in on the original design group, of what was EGOR. I fired a letter off to him to see where he is with his. I can't beleive the heat sinks on his.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2001, 04:31 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
Since the O2 sensor does not opperate at WOT, how do you know if you are too lean or rich in WOT???
John
The only accurate way of **seeing** where you are at WOT is by reading the plugs.
You have to measure performance, and see what the engine wants, and then give it that. This ol blanket of 38d timing thing is for the birds, or uninformed.
You have to actually test to find out what the engine wants, period
-----------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2001, 05:48 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
Around town I have had no problems whatsoever with the chip, car idles & runs better than ever.
Drove to St Ignace this weekend for a car show, about 230 miles from where I live. I am using a slightly modified ARAP Bin.
After my trip we get off I-75 and I notice that the idle is up to 750 instead of the 600 that I set it at. I shut the engine off & restarted, same thing 750 RPM. We found a nice place to watch the morons cruise the street.
In the morning it started fine and idled at the set 600 RPM. After my trip home it was still ok at 600 RPM.
any ideas to what happened??
Flake of carbon held the IAC too far open when it did a reset, and lost count of where it actually was.
If and when you start playing with the IAC stuff you'll see how sensitive it can be.
I have an easy to reach switch connected to the orange memory wire, so that if something like that happens I can also clear the memory.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2001, 08:49 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TC602:
I am working on my buddies 94 Chevy Cavalier with a 2.2 liter motor. It is throwing a code 27 which is a QUAD driver. I read the manual and it says that the QUAD driver is in the ECM. I replaced the ECM and cleared the code, but it is still throwing the code 27. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks Tom
Something shorted out is what blows a quad driver. Just replacing the ecm, with something shorted, means you just blew the good ecm.
You have an electrical problem, not a prom problem.
--------------------------------
Old 06-30-2001, 10:14 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
I started burning just to get my car running. I followed the posts on commercialism. I'd like to again find out where everyone is on the subject.
I burned a chip for a local because a 'custom' tuner royally f***ed it up. We took six hours on a Sunday datalogging and performance testing and burning new versions. When we were done, the car was a whole lot faster, but more importantly, was perfectly drivable. He asked how much he owed and I said nothing. I learned how to program from people's altruism and I use WinBin which is a free program. He slipped me a small tip. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Now, to muddy the waters, what if someone wants an over-the-phone chip - something simple like turning off VATS, fan on temp, etc? I've never done that because I want to touch the car before I'd do anything. But it would be simple. Could I do this in good conscience for free? What about for a small fee for my time and 'expertise'?
I'm not going into business and I don't plan on charging for any tuning, I just want to get an idea where the DIY PROM community stands right now.
Sorry for the non tech post.
Make a penny your on my short list.
I have years of work in on this stuff trying to get folks awake, and informed about what is going on. I totally resent any cashing in on what I've worked so hard to be a hobby type item.
If someone is already doing chips when they get here, and share their info., that *sorta* is a different animal, since they had alot of clues coming in. But, when someone starts selling chips, after being here, that crosses my line.
Also, be aware, you legally marry a car when it's running your chip. I think that is why some of the vendors do as little as they can get by with, so that they can't get hung in court. Plus, they carry the insurance to fight an insurance co., if there is a failure, remember Audi?.
If a guy has a problem, tell him what he needs to do to fix it. Just like what we do here. That way every one wins.
According to the Dicitionary, being nice, means being wantingly foolish.
Aaron's 87 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 07-01-2001, 11:20 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
I thought that was the general consensus and I agree. I'm just geting frustrated with all the new burners who are 'helping' people out for a fee. Especially when they royally screw up like the people who programmed the EPROM for the guy I helped. He didn't drive his car for two years and threw all new electrical components at it because they didn't know how to tune a car.
I won't tell ya what nonsense I've seen over the years.
Nuff to make ya cry
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 07:38 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mmaker:
Would you suggest doing this on a dyno, in the driveway or on the street?
I think the idea is to hook up my ease scanning software to the motor and then try to run the motor at each rpm level for 30? seconds and trap the values in the scan tool for later analysis.
Is this correct?
dave
You have to do it under real world driving circumstances.
You also, have to let things stabilize for several MINUTES for temps to stabilize to get accurate info..
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-03-2001, 09:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DM91RS:
I have read a good bit and only confused myself with this. You do increase the BPW number to make the fuel leaner or not? I may have also overlooked a conversion for converting MAP voltage to Kpa as my scanner reads MAP voltage or should I just use the conversion chart for vac to Kpa and write the Kpa's on the face of my vacuum guage?
K/Pa is almost a standard when working with EFI, might as well get accustomed to it.
As far as BPW goes, I look at a few files to get a handle on whats used, and then fudge accordingly. Other disagree and get into the fine details about the math. I'f rather rough it in and then with driving tuning get it dialed in.
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2001, 10:10 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TPIJag:
I have a ZZ-4 TPI engine in a Jag. We a prom thatwill start the engine but the SES light stays on. I pulled the codes(?) but there weren't any. When I hook up the jumper wire and turn on the key the light continues to just stay on. No flashing 12 or anything. Also, the fans come on as soon as I turn the key on. Any ideas?
No 12s is a very bad sign, ie dead ecm.
you need to go thru wire by wire and look for something shorted to ground that is driven by the ecm. Or something that the ecm grounds, that is shorted.
Also, check to see that the memcal is correctly seated.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 12:21 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_ZZ3:
I wanted to talk to people with a similar combination as me to discuss what mods worked for them, and what the result was.
I run a L98 with Edelbrock RPM heads, ZZ3 cam, stock ported TPI with 52MM TB. This is a MAF setup.
What parameters did you change that provided the biggest impact to your performance?
Thanks for your time.
Mark.
Have I run your exact setup?, No.
Have I talked with folks running similiar set ups yes.
If your heads are the small chamber ones (ie in the 50s), you'll want to run like 28d total timing at WOT.
Another item is dumping the MAF and going for the 90-92 MAP system.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-02-2001, 07:02 AM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
EEPROMS and Pocket
Can Pocket Programer be used for the 29C256s?. I have version 3.55 and don't see it listed. Any clues if it's just software, or hardware?. Weren't they taken over by a new firm, anyone have a phone number, and contact off hand?.
TIA
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2001, 07:32 AM #2
TRAXION
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,840
Car: Toys 'R Us Big Wheel
Engine: Two Size 10 Feet
Transmission: Direct Foot Pedal Drive
iTrader: (0)
Yes. Many of us here are using the AT29C256 chips with the PP. Its a software issue. You'll need to pay them to upgrade to the latest software IF you don't have the AT29C256 option available. However, with the DOS version you have to press ANOTHER key on the EPROM list to get ANOTHER list of PROMs. ALSO, EPROM.exe does not do EEPROMs. Only FILEPROM.exe does EEPROMs. The windows version of their software also does the EEPROMs.
Tim
------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org
TRAXION is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2001, 08:38 AM #3
Grim Reaper
Moderator
Grim Reaper's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: The Bone Yard
Posts: 10,501
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
iTrader: (0)
As Tim said, use FILEPROM, then select "F" for Flash and then option "8" for the AT29C256. I too have version 3.55.
Old 07-02-2001, 08:46 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
With my old Toshiba, and FILEPROM 3.55, I found that "initializing" with a BIN of Hex FFs first and then I could program the BIN I intended on it.
Without the Hex FFs first, the PP would program it fine, but my ECM didn't like it. With the Windows Version, this "initializing" with Hex FFs is not necessary. Just load the new BIN right on top of the old one and all is fine. Unfortunately, my ol' Toshiba does not like the Windows Version. The Compaq is fine.
So erasing it just means programming it with all FFs?
Yes, I'm limited to using the DOS program.
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-03-2001, 04:56 PM #28
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Untill you get in there and open up the plenum, the minram will have issues.
Take the Linenfelter design, and increase the volume of its plenum, and couple other lil things and it will run with or away from the miniram.
But this is gettin quite off topic.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-04-2001, 10:05 PM #31
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
[quote]
Cube for cube the Mini-Ram makes more power than the Superram. Hands down, plain and simple.
In stock form.
And as far as the Mini-Ram being short on plenum volume, I don't see where that is coming from. If you measured the volume of the plenum I am sure it would be smaller than the Superram, but probably not that much smaller. The Superram plenum may look huge, but it is quite thin inside, so looks ARE deceiving in this case. In either case, I am sure that the Mini-Ram plenum is considerably larger than that of almost any carburated setup (E.G. Victor Jr. which is an awsome manifold) so - again What issues?
Superram is about 380 CI, what's the mini?
Being biased, only closes one to the actual facts.
It would be rather easy to do a manifold to out do either manifold.
While folks talk about runner lenght in relationship to operating range, the lenght has alot to do with how an engine acclerates, so if your into shear Dyno work the Miniram can look to be a great performer.
The superram miniram debate is engine specific (to include application).
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2001, 07:50 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by rockind78:
OK. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on about the '86-'89 ECM's and how to make it work with my conversion with a non-TPI car. Earlier I asked about an ECM out of a non-V8 car (thanks for the reply Grumpy). The answer I got was that I would need a V8 memcal. I have been checking the archives, and awhile back someone asked about getting a spare memcal to make modifications to. The response to this was that a broadcast code could be used to get the most up-to-date memcal from GM. My ECM however came from a junkyard and I am about 99% sure it didn't come out of a camaro or firebird (PROM code is ACKD 4890). This leaves me with the question of what to tell the guy at the parts counter. I have read about your guys' frustration with GM pars guys and and mine are no better. What do I tell him EXACLY????? Thanks!
I can't tell you exactly what to say, since you didn't supply enough info, but, tell him the combination that most closely resembles what you have
89 Camaro ----tramsmission, 5.x Liter, then he'll ask probably a few guestions about gearing, and A/C and just answer them.
-----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-04-2001, 08:52 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MrDano:
I am trying to program a 27c256 for my 165 ECM and have not been able to get a chip that works. I have the pocket programmer and I am using it on a Dell laptop running in MS-DOS mode. Fileprom says the prom is programmed and verified but I get a constant SES light and I can not link with Diacom. I am trying to use the ARAP bin, I have disabled VATS and changed the fan operation. This is a 88IROC 5.7 system installed in a 87 Monte.
The bin I am using is a 32K file made by copying my modified bin to another file name then combining the two. I have tried erasing the eproms for as long as an hour and so far no difference.
Thanks,
Dan
Use two of the codes that your actually running.
Are you recalulating the checksum?.
Some GM eproms just never erase.
----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 09:51 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by whiterocz:
just curious, what do all of you have your max highway fuel mode time set to?
15 sec enable.
You need to have it long enough for the ecm to see a stabilised AFR.
----------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 09:40 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
how hard would it be to convince somebody to make something that read off of the aldl and sent to a lcd display that would show your blm and integrator #'s.
what are your thoughts on this, it would be the best a/f ratio gauge available.
actually i think it would be nice to set up console gauge cluster above the radio that would read a lot more, like tps voltage, map, would this be impossible because of the slow rate of the aldl?
Change LCD to LED, and you have a Scanmaster, so far 148 and LT1 are the only ones available. I have the 148 version on my GN and love it. Just reads one item at a time, so you can kinda glance at it to see what something is at the moment. 3 wire hook up, and a push buttom to scroll thur the displayed items.
Between this and the Translator ya'll should get ahold of Bailey Eng., and ask what kinda min order he would need to crank up a version for the 3rd gen cars.
His address is at the gnttype.org area.
Beleive it or not makes chip burning alot easier, when you have all the tools available. You can't data logg with it, but it's a whole lot cheaper then Diacom Plus.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 06:21 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
I have an 85 (870) and just found a (165) that Im ready to put in. Is this a bad idea? from what i've been reading lately if i do get it repinned and put in, im going to have a problem finding .ecu's? All im asking for is to be able to do a little tweaking and I would like to keep the software portion of this project shareware. Please no flaming the 165 and telling me to go SD. THANKS!
It's not a matter of flaming.
There are somethings that just make sense.
For all the effort to do that swap you could get a 730 in there. There are just so many MAFs in the system, and just as an example the GN MAFs are no longer available, and converting to the late ones costs several hundred dollars.
With a MAP system that sensor was used in millions of P-Us and should be available about forever. Also, the 730 is a more reliable ecm.
I've been down this path with dozens of guys. It's far easier to do it *right* once. Saving the $100 in software can cost you hundreds in labor, by the time your done.
Old 07-06-2001, 09:51 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by gravitar:
You could actually order Astro vans with a 2.5L TBI motor.. I robbed a few sensors off of one for my S-10 before. I would presume that the 91-up 4-cyl astro vans would use the 165 just like the S-trucks.
And Standard Brand Ignition parts show the 85 as a stand alone year.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-04-2001, 08:48 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodB:
What gas mileage have you gotten with the ARAP chip and highway mode, a couple of days ago I drove to my grandparents - a trip almost 400 US miles, and I got an average of 1 litre gas/10 kilometres. 1 US mile = 1.6 kilometres, but the conversion litre vs. gallon you'll have to lookup somewhere
Is this good or just normal? I tweaked the AFR vs. Load tables in the chip a little bit so that they looket like this:
Load AFR
32 16.0
64 15.8
96 15.8
128 15.4
Which means that at low load it'll run a bit leaner, but it doesn't seem to be a problem.... What results have you other guys got?
Results will vary by car, but mid 16s AFR seem about the limit. It will take X amount of fuel to generate a given amount of HP, any given car will have a fair amount of rolling resistance, so it's not just a matter of learner is good, there is a practical limit.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 09:49 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Mike, that is the best thing to do. You really need to have the mixture right to get the best results with Highway Mode.
However, the ARAP BIN is pretty darn good "out of the box". Pity there is isn't something similar for SD cars...
On my FBod I used to routinely get 25 with a TBI, and the GN at 3,500+ lbs gets 25 and that was pre highway mode.
FWIW, I had the F at 1.0v TPS at 60 MPH, and the GN is 1.0v TPS at 72 MPH.
Both ran the limits on max advance. GN has a AFR of 16.8 but was worked with alot to get there.
-------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2001, 08:02 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by branz28:
I don't quite understand this so someone please clear it up for me. If i relocate the IAT from under my plenum to before the TB or to the "Y-Plate" it won't have any adverse effects on the EGR and other such things. But will give me better throttle response? Am i correct? Now if i had a 730 ECM it would all have to be recalibrated for the change in location.
There are several opinions on this, mine being leave it where it is and then tune the car. There is no need to play mechanical games with stuff now that there are editors and hacs around for things.
The MAF systems will always seem a little lame response wise, compared to a MAP or carb'd engine. But, when fully optimised, it's pretty close.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2001, 07:32 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by whiterocz:
i dont have a spreadsheet program, and the free microsoft excel viewer said it didnt reconize the file type when trying to open it. its at:
http://members.aol.com/jxbxn/wot.csv
TIA
I used wordpad,
just about useless it's so wrapped together
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 07:56 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dyno Don:
Need to know what inj. constant, i think it would be 143, how close am I? Can I erase the stock chip and reprogram it with ANLU.bin cop chip in the 8746 puter? I'll be using the inj, out of the cop car (68# p/h). It has a 454 T/B, ZZ4 cam.
Grumpy- Glenn ?
Thanks
If the cop car your talking about ran a 8746 then OK. You can't switch wproms from different computers in the C3 series of ecms. They have some code hardwired into the PCB.
I work a little backwards on injector constants, I play with them till I get close to 128s, and then tinker with the tables.
You might need BBC PU injecotrs for that much motor.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2001, 09:36 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TPIJag:
Is it possible that my cam is too much for limp home mode? My earlier posts discuss my troubles w/ my prom, now for another question: When my car goes into limp home it barely runs! Sputtering, backfiring, not even enough power to pull a small hill at 10mph in low gear! Or, is this another symptom of the bad prom?
Limp home mode is a default series of settings. No distributor advance (other then what's in the ign module) etc..
Very often on hot rodded cars, it's about enough to get you out of traffic, and that's it.
In limp home mode the eprom isn't even in use.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2001, 09:42 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
In order to hit the upper maf flows(checking my int to adjust from there) it seems like I have to go over the 70%-%TPS to enable wide open throttle vs rpm normal table on the 6E. Has anyone been increasing the % to enable; to tune the upper limits of the maf tables? Or just tuning up as far as you can with it at 70% and then tuning WOT? Also-another related ques. Under ecm constants-the min. delta tps for accel. enrich-(started with ARAP) it's at 3.9%; is everyone leaving that alone while tuning the maf tables? I have disabled the hwy mode while tuning, but am wondering about the rest.
also I noticed on the arap that the %tps to enable wide open throttle vs rpm hot table goes from 70% at 1200rpm to 14.8 % at 2000 and up rpm. Whats the definition of hot in that table? And why would it change at 2000rpm like that. I just can't figure the sense on that one. Thanks for any enlightenment!
In a way your just making more owrk for yourself. If PE is enabled at 70% TPS, then why worry about the AFR in non PE mode at that TPS setting?. from watching my own driving style, I'm at low TPSs, or high ones, very little time is spent running in between the two.
To get any really high flow rates, at less then 40-50% is difficult. Personally I use alot lower PE enables. ie in the GN 11-20% are my PE enables.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2001, 02:49 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by hectorsn:
I understand this is with a MAF ecm but in the 730 article it states to go as high as you can on VE table without hitting PE. As I understand it, this is because PE is added to the VE table. If the VE table is as close as possible, tuning the PE should be easier, right? Of course you may not want to have PE enabling at 70% TPS (I assume every combination and driving style will be different, you like it at 20% or less) but getting the calibration right even if you don't intend to use it is a good thing, don't you think.
That's one area that's a big difference MAF to MAP. Tuning a VE table is really easy in book, MAF is a whole new animal. Changing a scaler by a value of 2 just can throw the whole column in the trash. My suggestion is staying out of the MAF table scalers and such as much as possible.
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2001, 11:29 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by cp87GTA:
Hi Guys. I burned a 27c256 with a modified arap bin. fed the first half and started with 04000 for the file. Seemed to program ok. Then I checked it with winbin. All flags are now checked and most of the numbers were changed to 255. Anybody else have this screwy thing happen? I also programed the chip lower half program upper half ffff and it checked out just like I modified it. Going to use this in 165 ecm in the car below. THANKS.
Try loading two complete bins into it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Old 07-08-2001, 08:54 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dyno Don:
I am having trouble with the idle. No matter what I change I can only get the idle to come down when I unplug the IAC. (500 rpm's)
I have lowered the IAC steps Vs. coolant temp about 20 steps in each box and set the target idle to 550 it ia a little lower but still at 775. I set the high idle (choke) at 1100 and that is working right.
Can anybody help?
Are you using a VSS?.
If you're just running it in place, yes, you can confuse the ecm.
Do you have the min idle speed set right?.
IAC passageways clean?.
Target idle of 550 might be lower then the idle stall speed saver.
-----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2001, 11:24 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HighHopes85:
Little background. Basic 355 w/ 214/224 cam 112 lsa and 9.2:1 comp (Iron heads). Running a 730 setup. Due to the cam swap, I used P730 (excellent btw) to get my lower BLM's up from 108 to 118-120.
That was chip 'x'. All I did was change the VE tables again and burned a new bin to get closer to 128. That chip nailed 128 right away but my IAC started going over 100 where it was previously at 10-16. Of course that set a high MAP code (around 75 kPa at idle ) and was able to verify low vacuum with a gage.
IAC counts have remained untouched for the most part, other than raising the idle to 750 RPM which was done a long time ago. Outside temp has remained the same. Only other change I noticed was that now that my BLM's are pretty close, my idle at the same temp in Park has dropped about 100 RPM.
Just reburned the previous bin which worked great but had BLM's at 118-122. IAC remained low and no codes set. I am lost. Any pushes in the right direction? Thanks, -Matt-
Have you reset your min idle opening since the cam swap?.
Are the IAC passageways relatively clean?.
If the above is set right, then sounds like you've tripped the antistall stuff in the ecm. You need to be sure you've remapped the idle area in the right spot in relation to the K/Pa your running at idle.
Don't be surprised if you have to move the idle timing a signifigant amount.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
-----------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2001, 08:50 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by SCFORMULA1:
Ok I ve got a 89 Formula with a 305 TPI i just put in a LT4 hot cam 1.6 rr new lifters new push rods new timing chain and had some head work done my question is this after we did all of this the car doesnt seen to rev or drive like i would hope it would ( it feels like a 4 cyinder) I posted before and everyone told me to get a custom burn chip ( its a ads super chip, i had to fill out a long form) i just order one and i was woundering if this would stop the problem i m having with my car. thanks
Scott
Seems like you got some bad info., from the everyone you asked...
The only way your going to get the Right chip for your car is doing itself. Anything else is just a generic answer.
Your going to have to do some work on your part to actually tune your car.
You probably could have bought most of what you needed for chip burning with what you wasted with ADS.
---------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 01:55 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt87GTA:
Kind of like an Oxygen sensor deteriorating over time except getting more sensitive instead of going dead like O2 sensors do. This would explain a lot of the most likely 'false' knock that I am seeing in these other two cars of my friends' that I am playing with. Both cars have over 100,000 miles on them so I told them that it really can't hurt to get a new sensor just as a maintenance item at this point. They both are going to replace their knock sensors and bring them back to me so I can see what kind of a difference a new knock sensor makes.
The logic just doesn't follow in my book. How can a rock fail?. It's a bit like quartz, and shaken or squeezed it developes a slight voltage. There is nothing to wear out. What screws then up is not being tightened correctly.
Most likely your false knock with a 100K mile engine is from some oil useage ( ie maybe just drops per 3K miles, can be enough to do it). The closer the tune is to optimume, the less oil it takes to actually trigger some detonation.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2001, 04:51 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt87GTA:
Well I normally would agree that an older engine cannot be counted on and assuming that the knock it is logging is false is a bad idea. But the two cars that I am talking about have things done to them (1.6 rockers on intake, lowered, etc..) that can create incidences of false knock. I also have ridden in them many times and they do not seem to be knocking (audibly).
One of the cars is an 89 IROC LB9 M5, lowered, stock EPROM, stock engine, intake, and exhaust. It will start logging knock counts as soon as he gets over about 70% throttle and keep logging them steadily as long as he is on the throttle. His car pulls about 5* out of timing when it starts logging knock as well.
The other car is an 88 GTA with a rebuilt L98, A4, stock intake, 1.6 rockers on intake, SFCs, STB, and full exhaust system with headers. His car logs knock as soon as he gets his throttle past 70% as well and keeps logging it until he lets off. His car has an ADS EPROM in it. I worked with him a little bit more than the other guy and his car gets up to 39* of total timing even when it is being retarded 5.4* because of knock. I don't hear knock in his car either.
I know that knock is hard to hear when the engine is at full song, but if these cars are logging that much knock, you would think that I would hear it. They both have their base timing set at or under the factory setting (6*) and they both run 92 octane or better at all times. BTW - I have been using Craig Moates software.
Well if you guys have any ideas I, and they, would appreciate it a lot. Glenn has been a great help to me in the past (Thanks a ton Glenn ) and I was mainly posting to see what he had to say but the more minds the better .
Thanks..... Laterzzzzzzz
The suspension indused *knock* from what I've heard was in the 17" tired vettes with ultra short sidewalls. I'm running 40 series 16s on my GN and no false knock.
There are sounds of the right frequency, and harmonics also.
The above is just FWIW.
There still in nothing *good* about acoustic *knock* sensors.
At the point of detonation there is an excess of ionization that takes place. I just had some modes done to the GN for hopefully being able to measure that, and if it works out there might me a real easy answer to when knock is actually ocurring
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2001, 05:04 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
What fuel ratio should I be shooting for? I am at about 14ish. I have read a few past post saying 16 is near the lean side? So higher the number the leaner? Sorry is this is stupid question...
This is exactly why you have to test test test. To find out what your particular car likes. The ecm in closed loop will average 14.7:1.
In a lean cruise you might get 16.5:1 (which is leaner then 14.7)
At idle a 15.x, in open loop is a fair average.
In Wide Open Throttle, it can be anything from 11:1 to 12.5:1.
It's Air Fuel ratio. the more air (leaner) the higher the number so 12:1 is much richer then 16:1
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2001, 01:05 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86FyrBrd:
I have an 86 trans am...originally had 305 TPI, Im in the process of putting in an L98 350. What chip should I get for it. the L98 is from a '91. Should I buy a '91 chip, is there an 86 350 chip. I want the jet 6 pack. Could I just get the '87 TPI chip. Thanx, Brian
This board is about burning your own chips, not which chip to run. If your asking which chip to start with for burning your own then do a search on the ARAP.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2001, 07:57 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Daz:
Part Number 08-306-8
305ci-350ci
Grind Number CS 290H-R12
Gross Valve Lift0.51 / 0.54
Duration At 0.006 Tappet Lift 290/307
Duration At 0.05 230/244
Lobe Lift 0.34 0.36
Lobe Separation 112
Recommended Valve Springs 987-16 \
Do I have to change to SD with this cam?What are will be the bottleneck on the stock programming..Ill be burning chips eventually but Im still on the learning stage..Does this cam has a remote chance of working with my MAF?Im currently using the next level down cam 08-305-8(220/230@.05 .510/.510 lift 114 LSA)and its very very docile..
383 10.4:1 comp,Scat crank etc..(safe up t0 6500 RPM),TFS G1 heads (bowl work 5 angle valve/seat job),recommended springs for the 08-305 cam,.200 longer pushrods,Crane Gold 1.5 roller rockers(non-self aligning),TPIS Bigmouth intake,Superram,52mm TB,1 5/8 heddman shorties,gutted cat,2.5" Dynomax cat back(superturbo muff),S10 torque converter rated at 2200-2400 but flashed at 2800-3100 RPM on different dyno runs,shift kit etc,3.27 rear gear..Car is an 87 IROC stock suspension,MAF,stock computer/chip(weighs around 3800 lbs)..
Daz
Very very docile?.
Are you using the stock injectors?.
SD would be your best move in my opinion. The real limit is how much work you're willing into getting it right.
Do you have any scanner info., from what you've got?
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2001, 09:17 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Daz:
I was using the the stcok injectors at 55 psi but changed it to 30lb SVO's..Ran good,no pinging (not like before) and idles steady at 700 RPM..no scanner but a bunch of Dyno runs with the 22lb injectors
Daz
In your sig line it says stock ecm/chip.
This ain't adding up
Your running 30#ers with a stock chip and having it run well?
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 01:05 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HighHopes85:
I am making the conversion from the 870 to the 165 ECM (89 code, ARAP). My
question is this: since I can get the ARAP and burn it, do I have to get
the correct memcal right away? On the 870, I know the calpak only
controlled fuel delivery in the limp home mode. I was wondering if I could
forgo getting the memcal from GM at the start and just just any ole 165
memcal (I need to check applications, but this would include 6 and 4 cyl
versions from a junkyard if they had the 165 in those models). When I get
everything correct and tuned properly, I would probably get the correct
one in case my ECM decided to go on vacation one day. I am just on a
macaroni and cheese budget these days.
To clarify things, I plan on taking the memcal I get and doing the ZIF mod
to it, then installing the ARAP bin. Can it be any memcal or does it have
to be for my application (2.59 gear, automatic).
Thanks for any insight, -Matt-
Geez, gettin to be misinformation central around here.
YES, you want to run as close as poosible memcal to what your actually running, the limp home mode does matter if you wind up having to use it. No one plans on using it, but chit happens.
Also, has to have the right cylinder select on the memcal.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2001, 04:19 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
Heh, yeah chit does happen, Grumpy. I've been mucking with my car for three years now and never been in limp mode. Just a data point. 'course now I'm getting heavy into prom burning too.
What did you mean by c/s on the memcal? You mean as part of limp mode?
There is cylinder select in the prom for setting the way the code runs, and cylinder select in the NETRES for setting the hardware.
I've been doing chips for some time now, and just about the time I take a **chance** on trying something goofy, I'll be damned if that's not when I wind up using limp home to get to the edge of the road.
Maybe just me, but anymore I would always error on the safe side, when playing in traffic....
My favorite diddy was a DIY traction control unit, using may $20 of Radio Shack Parts, well turns out the IC had a thermal limit of 32dF, Yep, on a cold night went under 32dF, and the car would not move, PERIOD. No way, no how, was just sitting there freezing wondering what to do, and it dawned on me about the traction control unit. It's still sitting as far as I could throw it into some corn field.
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 05:10 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by slowTA:
I e-mail Terry a while ago and he sent me a trial version of his software and now that I want to buy it... he isn't responding to any of my e-mails. Does anybody know of a new e-mail address or some other way of contacting him?
His real job takes him out of the country at times with next to no notice. He is good in support of his stuff, just at times has to kinda run out for a while.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 06:26 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BLOWN85/TA:
How much is GME PRO and does it come with a cable? I have the laptop now(P75 runs Win98SE) and the PP on the way so I am looking at cables and software, any advice Grump? I will be using the 730, what all would I need for the GME PRO?
GMEPro is the actual prom editor, software.
GMEPro runs on ol DOS machines just fine, whereas Tunercat needs windows.
I use GMEPro when doing stuff in car. I have an old laptop that I use for Diacom, and GMEPro. Yes, I'm cheap. Laptop was less then $50, and inverter $30.
I don't know what the current pricing is, but it's about even with tunercat, last I heard.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-10-2001, 03:36 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BLOWN85/TA:
Grump I had a slight brain fart their, I had data logging on the brain when I responded. Is GMEPRO the full editor or a hack?
Bob for comparison purposes how many different data logging softwares have you used?
GMEPro is an editor.
Direct scan beats everyone in my book. Other then Lockers, it's the only one that uses the edge card connector on the ecm's PCB.
What someone needs to do is figure out a Lockers for the 165 730 ecms
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-10-2001, 11:22 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
That's kind of what I was planning on doing, just changing the TCC lock/unlock constants.
But what about that Unlock Prevent parameter? I understand it to be the value which the speed must drop below before the TCC can unlock. Hmmmm. So if I am set to 60, then below that the TCC can unlock? Guess I should lower that number.
I checked some recent scans, and I do believe the EGR is working. The duty cycle is flipping between 0 and 100%. I will most likely leave it alone for now.
FWIW, also look at operating temp., vs TCC enable. A 156dF enable with a 160dF can be lots of fun to figure out.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-10-2001, 11:22 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
That's kind of what I was planning on doing, just changing the TCC lock/unlock constants.
But what about that Unlock Prevent parameter? I understand it to be the value which the speed must drop below before the TCC can unlock. Hmmmm. So if I am set to 60, then below that the TCC can unlock? Guess I should lower that number.
I checked some recent scans, and I do believe the EGR is working. The duty cycle is flipping between 0 and 100%. I will most likely leave it alone for now.
FWIW, also look at operating temp., vs TCC enable. A 156dF enable with a 160dF can be lots of fun to figure out.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2001, 02:51 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
How'd you disable it in the prom, Greg? Mine is currently inactive because I have the 'vette heads, but I haven't deactivated it in the prom.
I'd suggest setting the temp enable to a high figure.
Then set the flag so as no to even be able to report a failure.
Old 07-01-2001, 07:58 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
The typical way of disabling the EGR is to set the EGR Enable Temperature to 255 counts.
Just every once inna while I had problems doing that, so now I use like FD. YMMV
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2001, 04:58 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
So, lemme get this right, There is no big deal with disabling the EGR?, Engine runs fine, no special values have to be set to do it other than the following:
I disabled the EGR diagnostic, but since I am using the 6E & Tunercat I only have the following variables concerning EGR,: EGR Off (% TPS) and EGR on (% TPS). where should I set these? I don't know where to find the "EGR Enable Temperature" as mentioned above by Glenn, in Tunercat
any suggestions would help... other than look it up.
Try 0247, looks like it's one of the reverse reading temps. Try 02 as an entry, let me know what ya find.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-11-2001, 12:29 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
Hey all. I'm trying to get my car to idle right when I first start it in the morning or after it's been sitting for a while. Plus make the coughing and backfiring go away while I'm in open loop and like 5% throtle. I'm at my wits end... can someone take a look at my bin and tell me if the open loop values are at least in the ballpark ? Part throtle is great and WOT performance is awesome, but when the car is cold it runs like crap. I have it posted it here if anyone wants to help. It's a speed density 8D bin. http://www.truspeed.org/current.bin
Thanx in advance.
Cold open loop stuff is frustrating, even after a thousand chips. Take notes and go gradually.
There really aren't any universal answers for what will work with your combo. Might look at a few other 8D cals ans see what ya see.
------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2001, 04:43 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
In Theory, it should be possible to take a Duel Inlet MAF system and put the MAF on one side, Balance the other side to have the same restrictive airflow to balance the two sides. Tell the computer to expect only 1/2 the expected airflow.
any thoughts?, I think it would beat the heck out of pulling the screens out.
Before you say no-way, consider the O2 sensor workes on only 1/2 the engine.
i think it would work... it might take a radically programed PROM, but it should work.
It's been tried, and was a failure.
MAF scalers and such are a PITA. Ya, given unlimited time effort and money you can do anything, but why?.
For 1/10 of the work you suggest you could go MAF and have no grm/sec liimit issues.
taking screens out willy nilly is just silly. The calibration of the MAF sensor is what makes MAF so good, tossing the screens just screws up the calibration of the sensor. If you go over to the Gnttype.org list and look at the relocated MAF article you can see some of what I've done, and if you study it for a while it will make lots of sense.
The Translator stuff is all 148 specific for now. There was a volunteer for working with Bailey on a 165 MAf system, but I lost track of that.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-11-2001, 07:09 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
a couple of things: Ok, I can't seem find the post you are referring to. Grumpy, could you post it agin for me.
I want to run a duel snorkel, and since there is not alot of room in front of the Throttlebody, bla bla bla, see where I am going...
He was working on a web page dunno if done yet.
Dual snorkel TPI?.
For every 1% reduction in intake tract resistance you can expect a 2% HP gain. Might look at:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/engi...relocate3.html
Note 4" intake tract and how short it is. With something like that then you can worry about runners, plenum volume, and then tuning
------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-11-2001, 12:26 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89bonestockiroc:
Hi, I am getting ready to start burning my own eproms. I am in the middle of converting to a speed density system from my 89 maf sytem. I want to use a piggy back chip but it doesnt appear to be very easy to find cheap used ones for speed density systems. Will the piggy back chip meant for a different chip work? For example, would a piggy back chip from an 86-89 work for a 90-92? I would be replacing the eprom with an $8D programmed chip first of course, I just want to know if I can use the piggy back adapter. Also does anyone have the part number for a stock speed density chip?
Thanks,
Mike
IF your talking about the green type like hyertech uses then yes you can use that. When you install your old memcal that supplies the netres and stuff, then ignores the oem eprom, and reads the one that is in the new socket
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2001, 01:10 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Yelofvr:
Let me caution you if you have removed your EGR system(you said no emissions). You will need to remove significant amounts of timing in the 40kPA to 80 kPa region or you will get lots of part throttle pinging. I just finished my spark table on my alum head 383 with no EGR. In some areas I removed up to 15 degrees from a std alum head corvette program. For your VE table I would start with a stock VE shape and reduce the values below 3000 rpm where your cam reduces cylinder filing due to late intake valve closing point, and increase the values where your new cam generates peak torque. You will need to get your injector constants correct for your displacement and injector size. A scan tool is the best way for that.
Just curious, did you reset the enable temps for the EGR to some unreal number, or just let it still apply, and took timing out?.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2001, 08:43 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TPIJag:
Are you saying that I should reinstall the egr in order to make tuning easier?
Can we achieve the desired tuning w/o egr?
NO.
There are several elements to the EGR.
If you've removed the hardware on the engine, then you should disable the software in the ecm, so it does not report a problem, or try to use the hardware that is missing. The ECM makes timing and fuel changes when it applies the EGR. So you need to disable the applying of EGR.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2001, 05:13 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Yelofvr:
Grumpy: I did not modify the enable temps or the percent TPS for enable and disable. I simply deselected the EGR diagnostic so I get no error codes. When I review my Diacom data, the EGR is still being cycled on and off. Is this not the proper way to do this? I could not find a "enable temps" in my TunerCat software. I have heard others say they disable the EGR by setting the %TPS to 100% but that doesnt seem right to me????
02B0 should be the min enable temp on the 8D for EGR enable, so set it to like FD.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-11-2001, 06:35 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ions91Z28:
Is it possible to make a stock L98 run faster just by playing with the PROM... Or will some mild to heavy mods have to be done first.
There are too many variables to say if / or how much faster you could go. But, done right the engine would use less gas, and last longer. If you really *got into it* you could improve the drivibility of it.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 01:58 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I was looking thru my Illistration & parts catalog for 82-92 Firebirds, and was interested to find that there was no ARAP codes listed.
WHERE exactly did this BIN come from?? does anyone know or is it a mystery.
John
The Snap-on book shows it.
I released the info about it, after a tip from a gm guru.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 01:59 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy:
The Snap-on book shows it.
I released the info about it, after a tip from a gm guru.
BTW, 89 MY, and vin 8
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-24-2001, 09:27 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
Ok, here is what I was thinking, For tuning my car I thought, Gee, it would be nce to have a dyno. Then I thought hey, I have a G-Tech, unfortunately it does not have any way to output information so it can be recorded.
Then I thought What would be REALLY KEWL, would be a G-TECH & a program like DIACOM or some other Engine analysis program, maybe Craig Moates software, that would take the information and give you a relationship between G's and RPM, MPH, etc, etc, etc.
Thoughts???
Direct Scan does exactly that, but it's 148 specific. What surprises me is no one has looked at improving lockers, and use the edge board connector on the emc's PCB.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2001, 06:03 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by gravitar:
I'm surprised that noone has attempted to reverse-engineer the Directscan module to see how he's doing it. Surely the same concepts could be applied to the 747, 165, 730, or whatever!
You don't have to reverse engineer anything, just look at Lockers, it's at the DIY_EFI.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2001, 05:07 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by wildman923:
swapped out my C/C LG4 and dropped in a 334 reatained the stock distributor and Carb. Has a decent cam in it. What's the best way to get the computer straight ? (besides just pulling it out)
Just get a prom from the ZZZ retrofit kit.
Then get Doug Roe's Q-Jet book.
With the CCC Carbs, the secrets are in the jetting of the carb., not the chip, once you have the above chip
-------------------------------
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-10-2001, 03:55 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Thinking outside the box + HP
If you want to see what a GM ECM can support HP wise here's a clue. This is by no means a Drag Racing Set up, but a daily driven GN. Every prom tweak imaginable has been made. My next ecm with be without the on board ROM, so all the programming will be available for tweaking. With (6) 55#/hr injectors, you can do the math on what cranking the boost up means. At 28 PSI of boost on pump gas I popped the headgaskets, but just had to learn what the limit was for my combo. Oh, and BTW, there was no trace of detonation, is was a matter of just lifting the heads.
With the SEFI I run a 2.1 PW at idle, and cruise is 3.2 msec.. WOT is 11.8:1 AFR, and lean cruise is at 16.8. Those numbers are for follks to start with, but rather what you might be able to run if you get things right.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/engi...relocate3.html
While this URL is about the intake tract I can assure you as much detail has gone into every element in this car. How's that for an ol phart's car?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 07-10-2001, 11:31 PM
Old 07-11-2001, 12:47 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Like a ROC 89:
Does this have anything to do with PROM burning or are you just showing off???
It has everything to do with prom burning. There are well over 50 tables, and probably as many single point entries changed.
Min. of 2HP per CI, 25 and probably closer to 30 miles per gal., with perfect manners is all about prom burning. Integrating Hot Rodding, and prom burning just happens to be what this list is about. This car reflects that.
iTrader: (0)
So in other words, its about PROM burning AND showing off Nothing wrong with that, gives us all something to shoot for! Pretty radical setup.. at least for an old phart like Bruce!
gravitar is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 07-11-2001, 09:25 AM #6
TRAXION
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,840
Car: Toys 'R Us Big Wheel
Engine: Two Size 10 Feet
Transmission: Direct Foot Pedal Drive
iTrader: (0)
28PSI on the stock engine? Dayum. I take it that you had to be running a 3-bar map? I thought that the GN ECM only supports a 2-bar map?
Tim
------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org
TRAXION is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 07-11-2001, 12:37 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TRAXION:
28PSI on the stock engine? Dayum. I take it that you had to be running a 3-bar map? I thought that the GN ECM only supports a 2-bar map?
Tim
Almost stock .
GNs use a MAF system. With the Translator Plus, extender chip, and late MAF I can read to 510 grms/sec.
Syclones came with a 2 bar MAP system, and Brain Greene did a recal that allows using a 3 bar MAP sensor on them.
Old 07-11-2001, 11:00 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobalos:
It appears that you are running the GN setup still, how does the 3 bar Sy/Ty code figure into it? is it just for reference? The GN does not have a MAP @ all does it?
BW
The syclones (AWD GMC Pickups) used a 2 bar MAP system. Entirely different then a GN setup which is MAF. The reference to the 3 was just that someone has hac'd the sy code and made a 3 bar version.
The GNs have a MAP sensor but only to use for a LED boost incdicator. Nothing at all to do with engine management.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 07-11-2001, 11:02 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bill87GN:
The GN does have a MAP sensor
Kinda miss leading to even say that since it's just for the dash boost indicator.
---------------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-25-2001, 11:10 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quick Diddy about cams-Final Answer
I've had dealings with many folks with many different cam head exhaust intake valve changes, and have really noticed first hand how some seemingly minor changes take lots of work to recalibrate. Hence my stand about to get things right means testing and doing your own chips.
Well, in my Black Car, I knocked the lobes of a cam, and replaced it will a cam of the same specs. Lift and duration were exactly the same, and just the overlap changed a few degrees. I caught the problem very early, so no bearings or any internal parts were changed other then the cam.
What an unbelieveable change.
While my last chip was about perfect for the old cam, it's way off on the new one. So far so that I'm going to starting with a virgin bin, rather then trying to get the old bin to work.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2001, 12:36 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MonteCarSlow:
Bruce,
Any theories on why the '730 TPI 305 A4 and M5 bins are so identical even though the cams are very different? The VE tables are identical (at least in the bins I looked).
Ernst
If you look at the injectors sizes for the HP level that makes for a very forgiving set up. Doesn't take much of a BL change to correct.
As you raise the HP level and still use the stock injectors things get much less forgiving. That's why I say the .5 BMFC is get for aftermarket ecms, but falls apart when using oem ecms.
I'd say 90% of the people doing hop up work on their cars should have changed injectors, but it will take time again for this message to get out. If you had 20% more HP to your engine you should be running an injector 20% larger then the oem one.
I had run 40#ers on the GN, and went to the 55 on a lark, only to find the 55 were sooo much better drivibility wise. WOT is exactly the same, idle the same, MPG the same. Hot or cold humid or dry thou, the car runs really close to the same, and response is just that much better. Even after changing all the fuel stuff to being the same ratio wise as things were with the 40s. just the BLs can more easily compensate.
HTH
----------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-11-2001, 11:10 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
Please check the post "4" Bosch MAF" under the TPI section and see what you'all think. Heard of it? It would be cool if someone did already figure something out.
Used on Porsche 928s and were like $400 a pop, as I recall. then you'd need to do a whole new MAF calibration.
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-05-2001, 05:17 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87ColdAirIroc-Z:
I finnaly got everything ready and i cannot get my pocket programer to program everything is see is set up correct. please help!!
First, thing is to see if the chip checks as erased. What series chip are you working with?. oem in memcal?.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2001, 04:17 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark 89Formula:
One feature of the stock bins that I'd like to change is lockup of the Torque Converter Clutch at 75-80 mph while @ WOT. Glenn's 6EX TDF has a new constant called TCC Unlock Prevention that sounded promising so I got a copy of that TDF from Tunercat. The value of this parameter was defined as 75 MPH in my bin file. So far so good. I increased the value up to 120 MPH so the TCC wouldn't lock at all @ WOT in third gear. Road testing shows the TCC still locks at 75 MPH (no change).
Have I misinterpreted the meaning of TCC Unlock Prevention? Is the interpretation correct but the code not working? Thanks for any feedback.
Unless you rework the tranny the cooler only operates with the TCC applied.
Also, as speed increase the areo load increases, and it's far better to have the converter locked just from heat management. If you need more top end that's an issue about HP, not TCC lockup.
Next issue is if you lock it too close to peak torque or HP, you can cause it so slip, and then they fail real easy.
My best tranny life was with a non lockup tranny and converter. My tranny failures turned out to be from the TCC coming apart.
With the GN and it's 200R4 I removed the inputs shaft check ball spring, and retainer, and now TCC feels like 5th gear, so hopefully that will prvent any excessive slippage (at least during apply).
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2001, 09:08 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark 89Formula:
Grumpy, thanks for the reply. I definitely wish to retain the lockup but only lock at part throttle. The tranny and converter are fresh and I'm only making about 230 HP at the wheels so no real possibility of grenading them due to too much power. The issue is that my single disk Vigilante is not designed to be locked up at WOT per Terry at Precision Industries.
I had the vendor make this change in the PROM I previously ran. Now I want to do the same since I'm rolling my own.
Just some thoughts:
Don't expect to do any extended WOT then, unless someone has modified the tranny for enableing the cooling system in non TCC locked.
This is one of them times when Tunercats Compbin is nice, compare the files and see what is going on, and if you can improve it. Unless you have one of the encrypted types.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2001, 06:26 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron91RS:
For WinBin.
I guess that would be for the 8746 that nobody likes. However I need one to read the bin if someonecould email it to me please.
What happens if I use the 747ECU to edit it will it mess everything up.
amiesner@hotmail.com
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/bin_lib/
should take care of your bin needs.
You can't use the wrong editor and expect it to work.
The reason that it wasn't popular was that there was no hac available for it, I think that has changed. So the info., should be out there. Then you could modify the 747 editor for your application. If you read promgramming 101 you would be able to match up a fair amount of info from the 747 to the 746, and again work on modifing the winbin for it
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2001, 09:32 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by poorboy8:
I'm have the TTS software and I want to make sure I order the right cable. I have a 91GTA and I'm at AKM Electronics page looking at the OBD1 conncetor that is 15ft long which is the first cable they list. Is this the right cable for my application?
Thanks
91 GTA is OBD1
----------------------------------
okfoz is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 02:00 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I had a friend with a hyperchip and I wanted to only see what they did in their programming, and it was a bust. I cant get Tunercat to read the bin. It came up with me needing a $1B Definition file. So I started to look at the bin file in Hex and noticed that the ninth hex address for the set of dual didgets determined the definition file. address of: 0009
So I changed it to 6E and 32, no luck, in either case.
Any ideas...
The newer ones are kinda encrypted, not worth the time or hassle to mess with.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
okfoz is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 02:35 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
Would that explain the Piggy back chip oveer chip that it had??
John
No,
the piggy back holder is just cheaper then buying a gm memcal, and they need to inventory one number instead of several dozen that way
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 07:02 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by olephart:
I am looking for scanner software to use on my laptop fo ra 96 LT1 OBDII.
The only one I can find is made by Ease and it costs $350. Is this my only choice and is it worth the price?
Does anybody make a programmer for ODBII?
I just got working with a 95 LT1, and using the Tunercat software made it a no brainer, well after asking some questions. I wound up setting up a *bench* to do the reflashing in the kitchen rather then the car.
So you need to go to:
www.tunercat.com, for the software.
http://www.mindspring.com/~amattei/techinfo.htm wil get you info on the cable.
There is a scanner and cable set up for the OBDII for $160, but I just can't find the URL right now. If you can't find it in the next day or two holler and I'll root around some for it
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 09:30 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by olephart:
Thanks Grumpy.
I looked at the Tuner Cat site again and they only show support for ECMs up to 1995. I Emailed them to see if they can do the PCM for a 96.
I've been doing a lot of reading on the net, but really know very little about this stuff.
I may have this wrong, but I think the LT1s up to 95 are really OBDI even though the 95 has some OBDII capability that can be scanned with an OBDII capable scanner.
The 96 is full blown OBDII and the software to scan and/or program OBDI will not work on them.
Do I have this right? Your patience in explaining this would be appreciated.
PS Still looking for the $160 scanner. If you find it, please let me know.
Ooops. I need more coffee earlier in the am I guess.
So far noone, has released any 96 PCM programmers that I know of. At this stage I'd say get a 95 PCM and work with that if you can. I know for a fact several guys have been working on the 96 stuff, but so far noone has been able to crack the system.
Also, with going with the 95 setup most of all your cheaper scanners will still work.
If you can scan me a copy of the 96 pcm pinouts, I'd be curious to see if the 95 and 96 are interchangable.
Old 07-13-2001, 01:58 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by olephart:
I would be happy to do this, but don't have a clue. Send directions for dummies and I will give it a shot. No scanner, but I have a digital camera w/macro mode if that will help.
I doubt a camera would have enough resolution. Maybe someone reading this will bail ya out.
I ran out of things to do (HAHHA), here's the link I was thinking of, for the scanner.
http://www.obd-2.com
I sure wish there was a way to run the 8051 PCM with a distributor. It's fun working with Flash PCMs.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 04:02 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by olephart:
Just found this:
http://www.carputing.com/
They claim to be the ONLY product available to program the OBDII. They also have scanners.
Grumpy - They (just like you) said that changing to the PCM for the 95s and using ODBI was a good way to work with highly modded engines.
I wouldn't spend a nickel with them.
That whole group started with help from over at DIY-EFI, and was to be freeware. If you check the acrhives at DIY-EFI, you can see it for yourself. I have no use for them.
Notice how they even lock it to one ecm.
Bunch of greedy, back stabbers in my book.
I've seen 8051s for %150, and getting tunercat gets you all the stuff they claim, least the last time I looked. Let's see $250, plus cable, vs $1500 plus cable. I'd bet ya that if you *lose* a computer by the time you actually got down *to it* they'd **have** to sell you a new outfit, whereas with Tunercat your still plug and play.
No thanks, that doesn't even sound like a fair never mind good deal. IMO.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
olephart is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 09:57 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by olephart:
Thanks Grumpy.
Sounds like a nice group of citizens.
Fortunately, I have a little time since I won't be doing much 'till my extended warranty is up next Feb.
Hopefully I'll have some more choices by then.
Be sure to let tunercat know your interested, the more possible sales the more effort goes into product developement
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-14-2001, 10:28 AM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
What we really need
I'm in luv.
I sure wish one of the software guys could adapt a 8051 (95ish LT1 PCM) to work with a distributor. Or someone to run an optispark off of the distributor drive.
Flash PCMs are just insanely nice to work with. I've been playing with one without using the MAF, and just in MAP mode, what a neat setup.
Even if it lost the SEFI, it would still be nice. Interesting seeing what the individual cylinder trim numbers are.
Cheers
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2001, 12:19 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomcat:
Grumpy , why not just stick a twin encoder disc into your dizzy and graft the photo encoder inside ? , the PCM doesnt need to know its not mounted on the front .
Would take a modified housing, the disc is like 3.5" in diameter. Making it any smaller makes the high resolution slots impossible to work with.
At times, I wonder about using an addition sensor in the dissy, for the cam reference, and then using the FUEL eDist. I think MSD even makes a dissy with a synch sensor in it now.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2001, 09:09 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BLOWN85/TA:
Grump In a way GM already did that. They used the distributor for the cam sensor and installed a crank sensor in the timing cover. This was SFI on the Vortec 5.7 engine for the trucks.
Nope, entirely different, and the other half of the story is code differences. The code from the votecs ain't nothing like the LT1 as far as the ignition goes. The LT1 can sych up in 45d of crank revolution where as the normal cam sensor stuff can take almost 2 turns to do it at times.
-----------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-15-2001, 07:16 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by The Dude:
Concerned about the issues with shelf chips. So what it is I need to do the nitty gritty programming and scanning of my car.Would like to get a taste of things while it is still stock...get my hands wet...then be able to have some background with the new motor. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated..I like windows applications by the way hehehe
Get a scanner of some fashion, pocket programmer, and an editor and *Just do it*.
Trouble is with windows stuff is that makes for a much more expensive laptop. It's best to just use a cheapy for incar work. I'd rather lose a $50 laptop to a crook then a $500 one. I've heard of all kinds of expensive laptops being stolen out of cars, and never a cheap one.
So:
GMEPro for the laptop
Tunercat for the PC
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-15-2001, 07:25 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
The thing is, I look at this whole page and my brain starts hurting because it looks so complicated. My question to you guys, is it really that bad, and can a rookie at this jump in and improve on the Hypertech that I currently have?
It's just like learning to drive. Once you bet the bits organized, and repeat things a few times, it falls into place.
Timing, is timing, and fuel is fuel. No biggies.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-15-2001, 12:40 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MR. KIDD:
How do you determine duty cycle my injector pw is 11.3 at 5800rpm I am running a 400 with a mini ram 24pd injectors.Thanks for all replys.
just for being easy to use.
At 6,000 rpm.
Divide by 60
so you have 100 revolutions per sec.
or
.010 secs
means
10 msec.
The above is for a batch fire system.
To read 11.5 at 5,800 rpm means the injectors are static.
If you remember 10 msec at 6,000 rpm., doing the math gets easy. 20 msec at 3,000, or 100msec at 600 rpm, etc.
In one of the final answer postings, I went into some detail about injector sizing. One quick item is as you approach, 90+% DC the injector opening can get erratic, and the injector just open partically, ie lean, not a good thing.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-15-2001, 12:42 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MR. KIDD:
How do you determine duty cycle my injector pw is 11.3 at 5800rpm I am running a 400 with a mini ram 24pd injectors.Thanks for all replys.
Arrgh,
to continue
Duty Cycle is a percentage of time available for an event.
Actual time divided by possible time is DC
If you had 10 msec at 6,000 rpm, that would be 100% Dutyc Cycle. 5 msec at 6,000 rpm would be 50%.
1 msec at idle (600) rpm, would be 1% Duty cycle.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 07-15-2001, 07:10 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodB:
Hi!
Which gives me the same conclusion as others:
A "milder" spark advance table can actually be better than a more radical one since the ECM doesn't have to retard as much...
One thing I did notice is that wa too much of the Fastchip looks DEFINITIVELY like he started out with the ARAP code and built his way up...
Comments and suggestions?
Forget about the aftermarket stuff, and work on your own. All it will do, is lead you off onna tangent at best. Any shortcuts, will confuse the issues at hand. Even in a $600 chip, all I've ever seen them do is add timing, fuel, and reset the fan temps.. Saw one where they added 15 degrees to the knock limits, and then advanced the whole table 5 degrees, what a piece of work that was. Anyway save your time, and work on your own program.
Old 07-15-2001, 12:24 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodB:
All I am saying is that there is several ways of telling someone something.
Grumpys way of doing this is very rude compared to yours.
Grumpy on the other hand only tells me that I am a looser and nothing useful.
I believe that I have at least done some good, because I have heard others tell me so.
Everyone makes mistakes, but the way he behaves towards me makes me think of elementary school.....
I try to write so everone can get what I'm saying, this list isn't for your personal, and private enjoyment.
Some folks like writting long letters, mine tend to be short and to the point, no more, no less. You can put any attitude you want to what I say, but that is your doing, not mine. No where did I call you anything, or was **rude** toward you.
----------------------------------
Old 07-15-2001, 07:28 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jmon92conv:
OK, I have read the article and am slowly testing the waters of this burning stuff. My question is simple, can I buy an aftermarket chip and piggyback off it from any GM vehicle, or does it have to be a F-body. Can I buy one for a truck, since I am just using it as a go between? Is there a cross reference site to check out which proms will work?
You need to be a tad bit more specific.
Like what truck?.
Till 91 they used one system, then 92-95 another, and 96+ another.
There is the bin library at DIY-EFI, but again need to know what your working on.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 03:12 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by LT90RS:
Who makes a good cheap or free scanner for TBI cars?
Sometimes you can find a decent price on a trade in with your locak Snap-On, or Mac tool man. Even at times dealerships have old ones on sale.
For the 747 if your into electronics then you want Lockers but it is 747 specific, infor. at DIY-EFI Incoming.
-----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-15-2001, 10:45 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by dsavio:
Do i need a new chip? my car runs great with the new 350/350 engine except at wot seems to bog.when it is just started seems to run great but after warm up looses some performance.have all original smog stuff including carb and dist.
any help appreciated
Dave
Get the 350 ZZZ retrofit instructions the *perfect* chip ecm and K/S are mentioned in there.
Then get Doug Roes Q-Jet Book,
then a from the carb shop the idle jet restriction kit, and idle jet kit. Tune accordingly
The CCC ecm stuf is basically timing, with just a crude O2 feedback system so most of your effort will be in carb work.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
-----------------------------
Old 07-15-2001, 10:49 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CamaroX84:
I'm still debating whether or not I should order the stuff to burn my own PROM or not. The main reasons of me not wanting to are: the fear of me severely messing something up that cannot be fixed without buying a new PROM, and the fear of me not knowing what to set each "setting" at and the car performing like crap. So, first off, how hard is it to learn? Do the programmers come with books to walk you through a burn process? Also, is there a list of the "settings" that a chip comes with stock, so I know where to start? Finally, does anybody have a list of what all you can program (i.e. spark advance, injector pulse, etc.)? ANY help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
You can always go back to where you started from. If you save the original file.
Have you read Traxions article?.
Just reading through old postings where will give you an idea of what's going on.
Got to www.tunercat and poke around and you'll find a listing of what can be modified in each editor
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2001, 09:24 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tricked-Out-Toy:
First question, Im using the snapon scan tool and im reading a lean condition when the on open loop but then once it goes to closed loop it get RICH and never leans out at all, where useing tunercat in $8D can i lean out the closed loop fuel/air
Second question, once it goes into closed loop she runs good just real rich, exept if i try to go over 3800 4000 rpms she sputters and wont even run right i know this is a WOT calabration but where do i start? im dealing with the stock ECM on a 91 Z28 SD , and the tunercat progam.
also is there any websites that give examples of the mods and whet was done to the eprom, i found a couple but i was looking for more, thanks guys youve been a big help already- TOT
Closed loop is 14.7,
do you mean the BLs are correcting for a rich condition, or are having to be commanded rich?
If it's pig rich, I'd check the Fuel Pressure first.
If that's fine the slowly reduce the VE numbers in the rpm vs Map table.
Where have you been, for info?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2001, 09:56 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87ColdAirIroc-Z:
I finally got my first chip burned. The arap code runs so nice compared to stock. No noticable hp gains but much more driveable.
thanks for everyones help so far!
glad to hear it's working.
one thing you'll notice with time and as you do more chips, the car will actually feel slower, since the torque curve will be flatter.
A really nice calibration will leave you wondering why the speedo pegs so fast.
A good car with the suspension, and brakes just right is amazin.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2001, 09:04 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by smokin87iroc:
ok ChrisEtemadi and I are ready to start burning our own chips. we want to go halfs on the equipment and stuff since we live close to each other and can help each other out and stuff.
here are the questions
I have an 87 (mass air) and he has a 91 (speed density)
does the programmer work for both setups or do we have to buy a separate programmer for each setup since our chips are different?
what software would work best with both our setups?
anythin else we would need to know is greatly appreciated
thanks
Andrew
Most all programmers will handle either of the proms your using. HOWEVER, you'll need two diffferent editors.
GMEPro, and Tunercat both make editors for both of those applications. GMEPro is DOS based and will run in cheapy laptops, and Tunercat needs a windows machine to run on.
I have both, and use them as outlined above
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------------
Old 07-14-2001, 09:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
Has anyone done much of this? I am going to the strip sunday, and plan on taking my laptop. This is my first time at the track this year, I don't go often since it is 2 hours away. I hope to get 3 time trials plus as many elimination runs as possible.
What paramters should I be concerned with? Obviously high O2 readings at WOT. I don't plan on changing chips or making lots of adjustments at the track. Just want to get some good repeatable runs, and lots of scan data.
You want all the data that you can gather.
O2 volts and retard are an absolute min..
timing temps VSS all play there part in tuning.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2001, 09:17 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CORKVETTE1:
i need ecu for a 85 vette i am useing winbin i already have some bil files just need the editor thanks in advance
email corky@trmicro.com
I know it's alot of work, yada yada.
But, you might as well plan on making a real event of it, and go with a later ecm.
It's just a matter of time till you can't get a MAF for it, and around here I haven't seen a 6870 in years.
Then will a 165 might seem like a good idea it only buys some time. Might as well study up on a 1227730, MAP like they used in the 90-92s.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-17-2001, 04:56 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ryn28:
I've read many posts about the equipment as well as many posts about things well beyond my understanding. My problem is this, I have an 86 Z-28 with a ZZ4 motor, no emissions, and all high flow TPIS stuff, gears, and all that. The main problem as you can guess is the TPIS chip. It seems to, how would you say......suck! I got SES light flashing randomly with no stored codes ever, max. timing advance peaking at 32 degrees where I want 36, fan comes on too late, etc.
If I buy all the stuff for burning chips then
1) What do I really need? I want the least amount of stuff possible with the easiest method. EPROMS, EEPROMS, I have no clue with this. I need to know about the best burners,erasers,chips,software,etc.
2) Will I really be able to figure this stuff out? VE tables,BLM,etc. This is a totally different language to me. Yes I read Traxions burning introduction. It has alot of good info but basically tells you good luck when it comes to making real changes to bin files and such. Makes me feel like I'd never get this car to run right. I woulnd't know where to start.
If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated. I've read many posts and can see alot of you really undersatnd this stuff. I also see how serious you are about burning your own chips and with what I'm going through can see why. The car runs relatively well but I know it could be so much better. Thanks.
Not to be too harsh but do some more reading.
Your first assumption is dead wrong with the 36d of timing. You'll get much better performance by listening to what the engine tells you it wants rather then assuming anything.
like any new indever anything looks overwhelming til you actually read up on it and get into it. Information is power, gotta grab all you can.
Try the ecmguy's link from www.tunercat.com and follow the links from tunercat.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-17-2001, 06:25 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
[quote][b]
"LTerm-C Counts" is flagged pink at 118. The help section doesn't really say what this is so I don't know what to make of it.
Sounds like what the rest of the world calls Block Learn (and hte term GM uses). 118 means your running rich, and the ecm is leaning things out alot. Optimum number is 128.
"STerm-C Counts" gets down to 114. Ditto on the help files here.
Again, in the normal world would be Integrator. and again running rich, normal being 128.
"Inj BPW" briefly gets below 1. From what I've read this isn't cause for alarm.
Less then 1msec., and the injectors *can* start being erattic
EGR DC goes up to 100% during high RPMs.
Odd, why would you want EGR at WOT?.
Usually on at light cruise conditions only.
CCP DC also flickered occasionally.
**Often** runs about the same logic as the EGR.
Now, here are the biggies (from what I know). During the 6 minute recording, the knock count got to 40. Also, the spark retard got over 5 several times. This happened during the hesitating acceleration that caused me to get all this stuff in the first place.
Not good.
Need to look for acoustic sources of noise, the knock sensor isn't a detonation only devise. Anything of the right sound and it trps it's trigger. Exhaust rattles, serpentine belts, A/C bearings are all possible bad noise generators.
I'm using good gas (have used several types to try to eliminate the hesitation), and can't hear anything strange while this is going on. The engine was relatively cool--between 10-150. Could this be a bad knock sensor?
About the only way to kill a K/S is overtighten it. It's basically a chunk of quartz type rock.
The only other thing I can see is on that histogram view. There seem to be an awful lot of red (rich) blocks.
Common for stock cals.
I'd really appreciate any commentary or good references.
Try the links at ww.tunercat.com, and browse around DIY_EFI.org.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-17-2001, 04:51 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodB:
Is there anyone else than me that have thought about building a stand-alone scantool with a LCD display that can show you some of the vital values without needing a laptop in the vehicle?
I think I can whip up a basic design for something like this, probably based around a PIC microcontroller since I've worked with those before.
But before I start, I'd like some suggestions as what data might be of most interest to show.... Any suggestions?
By the way, anyone know where I can get hold of an used 1227165 ECM cheap? Email me privately, might come in handy for development of this project in case something goes wrong..... (Do remember I don't live in the US, over here they are a bit more rare to come by!).
http://home.tonline.de/home/O_Scholz/flexscan.html
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-17-2001, 09:16 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by SATURN5:
The link is dead. :-(
Worked 5 mins before I posted it.
Maybe, it's just taking a nap
------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-17-2001, 03:41 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Generally start with the VE, but you have to work back and forth with VE and timing. You can tune the VE to a poor timing table, and be forever lost with what to do. That's why testing is soo important.
Also, the base cal you start with has alot of where you'll be doing the most changes.
Smooth stable idle, min PTSv for cruise, low ETs, and MPG will pretty much fill in your tables, but the mid to high load areas just take time to futz with
For a 3rd gen FBod the 730 is the way to go
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-17-2001, 05:03 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
Yea thats basically the direction i've been PUSHED
I was going to go to a 165 (from the 870) but after getting flamed up the wazoo.. I decided SD.
I just got alot of repinning im not looking forward too
get the wiring diagrams, get organized, and in a none rush mode take your time and just do it. I've done a bunch of ecms swaps, and getting the info ahead of time, and getting organized are the keys. First time took me 3 days to do, and nowadays 4-5 hours.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-18-2001, 02:05 PM #21
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
This is my one and only car and mode of transportation
Let me clarify things a little. My first one that I did was like 10 years ago, and there was NOONE around to ask any questions. The only info I had was from several GM schools I'd been to. Also was rooted in 20 years of carbs, and distributor weights. You however get to cash in on lots of others work.
It's real easy to hit reply and go na, the idea of being able to swap ecms has lots of merit. You can make some really nice Plug N Play ecm stuff.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-18-2001, 01:58 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
My scans are reading 11% @ idle and ~80% @ WOT. My TPS is .6v closed and 4.5v WOT. I think my TPS is in spec, but is that normal readings from a scan?
If you consider 5v as 100% those numbers work. But, there are different stategies of figuring it.
ie some call idle 0% TPS, and 3.8v 100%.
Some use the difference from idle to 4.8 as 100%. so if you had .6 at idle the difference would be 4.2, so very .041v of change would be 1%.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-18-2001, 05:06 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
Okay, I looked at my scans again and I can see that the AFR consistently switches from 14.7 to 11.73 starting at 68% throttle. So I'm assuming that means its sensing WOT okay.
It's going into Power Enrichment mode. Just means it's crossing the thershold to do so, you might not be at WOT. WOT is both a software, and Hardware issue
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Old 07-18-2001, 05:12 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by PETE:
a while ago i thought accel was selling a small piggy back ecm for gm ecm's with a two way harness that connects from the engine and back to the original ecm and read that it intercepts the original computers commands and alters them as well as altering the readings of the sensors on the way back has anyone heard of this?is it programmable?
Yes, and no, used variable resistors, not prom related.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2001, 09:19 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
in the table "WOT %change to AFR vs RPM" table? IE if I had a setting of -3.9% at 4800 rpm, that changes the AFR from 14.7 to 14.12. Therefore a lower AFR means the ECM will add more fuel to get that ratio.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I just want to make sure I understand this properly before I make changes.
Wrong,
-3.9% would lean the engine.
The larger the AFR the leaner.
14.7 is normal cruise, idle
16.5 would be a lean cruise AFR
12.5 would be a WOT AFR
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2001, 09:58 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
Why would -3.9% LEAN the engine, if I am going from 14.7 to 14.1 AFR? Or do I have my math wrong here?? I realize that higher AFRs are leaner.
I just checked out that post. Guess I got some homework to do. But how do the negative numbers play into this table?
If you take away fuel, it gets leaner.
-x%, means taking away fuel.
+x%, means adding fuel
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2001, 10:21 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by poncho@home:
I got my hands on a serial cable from an Accel piggy back system for TPI. It is a serial cable entering a little black box and coming out a black 4 pin connector with a b c d indicated in these colors..a=orange, b=green, c=red and d=black...
My question is can I modify this cable to use my laptop with craig moates software? Basically I am assuming that the black box is the max 232 chip that is needed@@????maybe, I hope...
I was just wondering if anyone had done this already...I know it's a long shot but hey I took a shot...if not I need to get a cable but the extra dough is just not there at the moment...
I'd really doubt it.
Every manufacturer like to key things so that they don't interchange.
Long term, it's best to do things right once. I've been down the road of allows having to upgrade, and tried the cheap way first, while it spread the costs out some, it was more expensive long term.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-18-2001, 07:56 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Started the car today after sitting from a 30 mile trip. Got on it, ran really bad and then just died. I tried to restart it and it was knocking (spark knock) and was belching black smoke. Then absolutely nothing. Cranks good but woth start. Turns out the injectors are not firing (Fuel pressue is good) and I have no spark. The Vettes have an oil pressure switch where the FP will not activate when pressure is less than 4 psi. That all checks out good. I checked the ECM grunds and they look good also. I have trouble codes. In diagnostic mode I have a code 12. I have VATS and it is working properly so diacom reports and if it was not working, I would not expect it to crank but I would expect spark. I also have 12V going the red lead wire in the the distributor. I changed the ignition module. I verified that the injectors were not firing by measuring volts while cranking and all my plugs are bone dry. They are also sooty which back up it running real rich before quitting. I tried a back up chip and thats not the problem either.
I know the ECM controls the injectors and timing. But what I don't know is if a faulty ECM can cause NO spark at all. Any opinions as to what my next logical step might be? I'm leaning towards swapping in another 7730. Comments?
A faulty ecm can have no spark, or fuel.
There will be no fuel without a reference pulse, double check the pickup coil in the distributor, should have 600-1K ohms resistance.
This is one of em times I mentioned having a spare ecm is more then just nice.
Todate, I haven't heard of anyone reverting back to a 165 after installing a 730.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-18-2001, 10:23 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Code 12s means the ecm has power, ground, and at least some processor functions.
When turning the key on, there should be a 2 sec fuel pump run signal.
There will be power from the fuel pump relay when the oil pressure is over X PSI.
For the injectors to pulse, the ecm must see distributor reference pulses.
If there is no spark, then there might be a lose of the refence signal so the injectors won't pulse.
Using the above clues you should be able to logic your way thru to narrow down the possible faults.
------------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-20-2001, 06:35 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
After playing around alot with a VSS triggered stop watch, I set it up to ignore the first 3 wheel revolutions. 1/4 mile stuff gets you into serious ticket stuff. 60' times are for chassis tuning.
I ignore the first 3 revolutions start the watch and stop 100 revolutions later.
Makes for very repeatable results.
I care about the 1/4 when at the strip.
Direct Scan uses air, and fuel flow, in conjunction with weight gearing, to do a HP calculation.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-18-2001, 10:25 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
I want to connect the JET piggy-back to my PP, can someone email me the pics on how to connect the wire wrap. Thanks!
Can't you use a small screwdriver, and remove the eprom from the piggy back?.
Then nothing additional is needed.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2001, 08:10 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Bruce, I found that with my ADS piggy-back, that while I can use a jeweller's screw driver to R&R the eprom from the piggy-back, it starts to bend the pins pretty bad after a few R&Rs. I found making the "adapter" as per Traxion's article from the 34 pin header works the best, especially since I inserted the Flash Prom into the piggy-back.
Might even be better long term to use a ZIF there. Mine was good for a couple hundred cycles just pushing the prom in and out, hmm, come to think of it was using different proms, maybe not one enough times, dunno
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2001, 03:38 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Your duty cycle depends on the length of the pulse width and the rpm. 11 ms @ 3,000 means just over 50% while 11 ms @ 6,000 rpms means over 100%.
And you cannot exceed 100%. It really means that there isn't enough time in an engine revolution for the injector to deliver all of the fuel the ecm is commanding the injectors...hence they are static or constantly open.
Just a lil nitpick.
They are commanded to 100%.
In making the transistion to **static** they can hang 1/2 way open (or closed depending on point of view). This can be a really bad thing.
Hence, in my Final answer why I suggest relating Injector size to oem HP, rahter then BMFC.....
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2001, 10:12 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MR. KIDD:
Thanks for all the information but could you enlighten again what is the oem and bmfc I know they are abreviations but what for. THANKS FOR ALL REPLYS
oem, original equipment manufacturer
BMFC, Brake Mean Fuel Consumption. In rough terms takes .5lb per hour of fuel to make 1 HP.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2001, 10:17 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MR. KIDD:
Ok if I put in 36pd injectors and change notthing else it going to be to rich I know could I lower fuel pressure enough to keep it driveable and if so about how much will the duty cycles change.Right now it so lean that if I hold it at 2400rpm for 20 seconds the headers turn red hot. THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP,SUGGESTIONS,IDEAS,REPLYS.
The ecm has a variable that allows you to change to allow for different sized injectors.
Just as an example.
My GN came with 30 lb/hr injectors and made 250ish HP.
I wanted to be able to about double that, so I installed 55 lb/hr injectors.
Looking back at the previous posting about BMFC, 6x55=330 at .5 BMFC in theory I should be good for 660 HP. There is just no way to tune to that HP (using a stock ecm), and have a really nice daily driver.
There are alot of finer points you need to research to get all your answers.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2001, 03:13 PM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MR. KIDD:
You guys donot think that 36pd injectors are a bit to much or is this done to give more working room when programming prom.Please bare with me on this subject matter.THANKS FOR ALL REPLYS.MR.KIDD
Find out what your idle pulse widths are, and then compare the injectors you have to the ones you want, and size the injector from there.
ie you have 24s, you have a 2.2 msec idle PW, so you would probably get away with some as large as 48s, and still have a decent idle.
The thing to watch is as you get to a 1msec PW some injectors get erratic, and the idle suffers. Using Peak and Hold injectors helps the situation, but the ecm can't fire those, well, for very long.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2001, 07:11 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
If I do the ecm swap, to a 730 but I get the ecm out of say a celebrity, will the mem cal work from that car? Or do i need one specifically from a camaro?
As a min., you need one from a v8.
It's best to just get the most similiar one possible from gm and use that.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2001, 09:41 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Its basically the carrier for the prom and limp home circuitry.
And the cylinder select.
It sets the hardware for 8 sylinders, where the code also has a cylinder select variable, the two much match for the car to run right, and report the correct ALDL values.
The memcal as used in the 165s has a knock filter on it, and the 730 has an addition PCB for additional knock filtering.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-17-2001, 04:59 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
Has anyone here built a laptop holder in your car? I have a $20 POS laptop, I laugh every time I use the seatbelt to hold it in It would be nice to have something holding the laptop and still being able to reach the keyboard (start and stoping the data log). I was thinking of getting another POS laptop and mounting the screen on the dash somewhere, but I figured that I was asking to ding-dong a tree if I did that.
Stop car, so laptop thing, drive your lap, stop car undo laptop mood.
When driving do driving.
Not being smart here, friend just really messed up his car and 2 others when glancing from ahead of the car to passenger seat.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-18-2001, 05:19 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by PETE:
on the aldl you usually ground a and b to read your codes but i stumbled onto this a while back and never asked the question nor needed to.just got my ed wright fast chip the idle leaves a little to be desired during warmup,after that it's fine,so my question is when i connect b with the terminal to the left of it the car's idle jumps to 1200 and is rock steady (compared to normal operation)and runs like a champ absolutely no difference in engine output. what circuit am i grounding out by doing this and has anyone experienced this.i don't know but it feels like either tthe computer ignores all the sensors and just reads the fuel and spark maps or sometthing tto do with the maf sensor.really need help on this one
The ecm has several modes of operation.
The commanded high rpm is part of ALDL mode, for diagnostics. The ecm is not meant to be run long term in that mode.
You can unplug say the MAF sensor and the ecm defaults to a bunch of run home settings. Some calibrations run rather well like that, but there are some gotchas, like the timing is locked, other then what the pickup reluctor generate on their own.
-----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 09:25 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg '85 T/A:
TPI Corvettes use two inputs TPI F-Bodies do not on '870 and '165 ECMs (not sure about '730):
pin C7 - A/T Overdrive Switch Signal (gear selector NOT in OD, P, N, or R)
pin C8 - 4th Gear Signal (feedback contact from TCC sol.)
Does anyone know how 'Vettes use these? Would this mean that a Corvette chip would not work in an F-Body? I don't see anything in TunerCat that sets a bit or something to differentiate between the two lock-up schemes.
I'm not too sure I'm following you, but can offer this:
In all the ecms I've looked at the TCC is finally applied by the ecm grounding the circuit. The qualifiers are a brake mounted cut off switch, a pressure switch(es) in the tranny, and a coolant temp enable for the code to actually enable the grounding circuit.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2001, 03:53 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg '85 T/A:
The reason I discovered the extra xmission inputs was that I was trying to see if I could slip a 85 'Vette PROM into my 'puter. One bugaboo on '85s - the 1,3,5,7 and 2,4,6,8 injector outputs are opposite at D14 and D15 from what the F-Cars are. This effectively shorts the two banks together. Could mess up the drivers (?).
Its funny. C8 for an auto car ('Vette) is the 4th gear input and for manual transmissions its the first gear signal. Oh well, better get another Helm's manual.
In the 165s, and 730s, there is just one injector driver. They tie together in the PCB. With an ohm meter you could check the 6870, and I'd imagine it's the same way.
yes, both the auto trannied, and manual tranny cars use a in gear detection switch, but that is primarily for idle speeds.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2001, 01:47 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by The Dude:
Which do you think is the best windows scan software...Ease?
Windows makes it more eye candy then anything.
The best scanners are Direct Scan, and lockers, then Diacom, a then everything else.
Direct Scan, and Lockers both read off of the ecms edge connector. So they can be read very fast.
Diacom+, because it is so universal, in it's applications.
There was just a posting about how Ease blamed GM for giving them bad data. Makes ya wonder if their customers are beta testing things for them.
The others that come to mind are just one ecm specific, and other then the share/free ware ones get expensive if you want to look at several cars.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2001, 06:52 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Lionsden:
I'm looking at the Pocket Programmer and Needhams EMP-10 programmer. Has anyone had experience with both? Is the EMP-10 worth the few dollars more?
I downloaded Tunercats trial version and have been playing with it.
I still haven't decided on some type of data logger. Free is nice but for me I'm not sure if something like the Ease program might be better. Any suggestions?
I guess a little info about my car. I have an '84 Crossfire Corvette with a 7747 ecm. The heads and intake have been ported, throttle bodies bored to 2 inches, Headers with true dual exhaust, Crane 2040 compucam. Eventually I like to trade up to a '91 L98 or a '92 or '93 LT1 Vette.
With the above in mind, I am trying to purchase prom burning equipment that can still be used with the newer ecms.
Any ideas or comments for this New Guy?
I've worked for years with the Needhams, and forra year or so now with Pocket Programmer, I'll take the Pocket Progammer.
The most versatile of the scanners is the Diacom+.
A cross fire with 747 is where I started 5+ years ago.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2001, 11:36 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I have one simple question, If I decide to convert to the SD (730), will my 165 cal-packs still function?? Limp Home mode, etc, or is that different for the two???
John
Nope.
730 uses a 256 eprom.
Also, has additional lil knock filter circuit on it. You'll be much better off using the corresponding memcal.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2001, 03:35 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
I agree. Memcals, while not cheap, are not expensive either. In fact, even though my car is an SD car and I had the stock GM Memcal, I bought a second one as a backup. You just never know when something may happen. Also, it helps in "diagnosing" a problem as you can eliminate the Memcal/eprom as a possible problem.
In fact, I am now going to pickup a second ECM, just because...you never know. It's nice to have "known, good" backup parts to allow you to eliminate as many possibilites when the "crap hits the fan". I hate it when you have a problem, get a second part, and you are not certain if the second part is really good as you never had a chance to test it before when everything was fine.
Now where have I heard that before....
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2001, 02:27 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by e-man:
Im new at this what tables/values do I need to change to decrease timing at WOT?
You want timing vs LV8, or timing vs grms/sec, depends on what software your using, as to the label it's given.
With the MAF systems, it's almost necessary to have a scan tool to see what kind of air flow numbers you have.
Hope, you've done ou homework on tuning, kinda worrisome when someone starts with a guestion like that.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2001, 08:09 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tricked-Out-Toy:
Hey guys My friend is here and we are tring to burn his chip buttuner cat sent me the wrong def file they sent me the 32 instead of the 32B i have already tried to order the right one but i think they are closed for the day and my friends car is not working!! does anyone have the $32B def file i can borrow???? or a stock bin file for a 88 GTA 350 with 700R4 using the stock ecm. and does anyone know if you can use the at29c256 with this car or do i have to use a at29c128 thanks for your help- TOT
DIY-EFI.org, hunt around for the bin library.
Double loading an image in the 256 will work, never heard of a 29c128 so can't comment on that. tunercat has a real job, and real life, so at times ain't available.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2001, 07:05 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Camaro_hunter_d:
OK I will eventually get around to burning my own chip. Now what I have instore for the motor is 1.6 rockers and the 2030 crane cam with the crane High rev kit(or something simalar)
What I have already is a 160 thermo and a polished intake runners. I have a 3.1 and I am looking for a little more pep for right now but want something that can still work well when the other things come into the motor.
Now I am not really "begging" for a prom just the best progeam to run with what I have and for whats coming.
From what I see there is no editing software available commercially for the 3.1. If you go over to DIY-EFI.org at incoming and in the archives is a series of postings about programming 101, and how to work out a hac for the ecm your working on.
The only right chip will be the one you modify to fit your application.
----------------------------
Here are the values for idle -
1 - 1.016
8 - 0.977
4 - 1.000
3 - 1.000
6 - 1.031
5 - 1.000
7 - 0.906
2 - 1.023
Notice the #7 value is .906 which is almost 10%. This seems a bit large to me unless the LT1 intake is really screwed up for that cylinder or the tunercat translation is wrong.
The off idle is:
1 - 1.063
8 - 0.961
4 - 1.023
3 - 1.023
6 - 0.953
5 - 0.977
7 - 0.984
2 - 1.047
The off idle values are closer and #7 is much closer to 1.000 than the #7 idle value.
I am wondering if the idle can be smoothed out a bit by adjusting the trim values.
Any suggestions comments etc....
Thanks in Advance.
AquaMetallic94LT1 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2001, 06:53 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AquaMetallic94LT1:
Has anyone fiddled with the individual cylinder trims using tunercat ?
I was taking a closer look at the values in my bin file for my 94 LT1 and noticed that one cylinder idle trim value is set to 0.90 in the idle trim table. The off idle ones are pretty close to +/- 6% but the idle value for #7 is almost 10%. I have compared my bin values to the stock ones and they appear to be the same.
Here are the values for idle -
1 - 1.016
8 - 0.977
4 - 1.000
3 - 1.000
6 - 1.031
5 - 1.000
7 - 0.906
2 - 1.023
Notice the #7 value is .906 which is almost 10%. This seems a bit large to me unless the LT1 intake is really screwed up for that cylinder or the tunercat translation is wrong.
The off idle is:
1 - 1.063
8 - 0.961
4 - 1.023
3 - 1.023
6 - 0.953
5 - 0.977
7 - 0.984
2 - 1.047
The off idle values are closer and #7 is much closer to 1.000 than the #7 idle value.
I am wondering if the idle can be smoothed out a bit by adjusting the trim values.
Any suggestions comments etc....
Thanks in Advance.
I don't think you'll get very far if your using the stock manifold, other then correcting for maybe slight variances in wear.
10% of what?. It might be 10% of 1% of the pulse width, or an adder rather then a multiplier. I doubt if it's 10% of the overall fueling computation.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2001, 12:39 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TRAXION:
Ahhhhhhhh. To have SEFI.
Using software to cover for poor design, is a great cover, but that's all.
To really get the trim right means data logging 8 WB O2s.
Batch to batch, and good design will get you more HP.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2001, 12:49 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by hectorsn:
This is just a guess but on a short runner one plenum (single plane) intake design the #5 cylinder will steal some of the intake air charge from #7. Especially at idle when the intake isn't working at its potential. I think GM did a great job with the LT1 and that this method of tuning was very intentional for the manifold used.
Really shouldn't be a problem with SEFI.
With the injectors working at a 2% duty cycle at idle, there is lots of time for the fuel to sit around waiting for the valve to open. Remember these are very slight corrections.
The 8051 PCM is just flat inna league of it's own. The LT1 is not a bad design, but linked with the 4L6E tranny is just awsome. I been putting a few hours in on the 8051 and have really come to like it. Some talk was that it was because it uses a MAF/MAP system. Well we went to MAP only and it's great.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2001, 08:06 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
When you swap to high flow heads, like trick flows or something..
What exactly is it in the prom that needs to be modified to accomidate them? Will the car run *right* without any prom mods? are the mods just to get PEAK power out of it?
What is it that i'd be changing in the prom for the swap? Thanks!
What might seem to be a smart answer, which isn't, everything.
The oem calibrations are generated for the lowest common denominator of driver, with 0 maintance.
Now with a different engine you need to redo the timing tables (generally LESS timing in PE), leaner AFRs, in non PE mode (power enrichment). Then a whole new set of low rpm stuff if you go to a looser converter to match the engine modes.
The aftermarket stuff in general changes is poor at best. You have to tune everything to get the perfect chip, once you drive the perfect chip, you'll understand why all the work.
----------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-24-2001, 12:51 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
O2 stuff- final answer
Today I started running a further downstream (about 4') O2 sensor in the GN (already converted to heated type), and I've noticed:
In cruise, the O2 output dropped about 30 millivolts. I've venture since it's heated and the cross counts were about in the same range, that backpressure was the deciding factor.
The GM ecms usually have a transportation time calc., for expecting a response from the O2 for some fueling changes, and on the 148 it must be kinda crude, since everything appears to be working just fine.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2001, 04:38 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mefreema:
I have a 2000 S-10 and am looking for a good tool to be able to reprogram the trucks computer. I dont want to spend a ton of cash. Does anyone know where I could find more info on making or finding a interface cable an software program to look at and change settings on my truck? Sorry I know this is not a 3 gen f-body but you guys are the only ones I have seemed to find that have a clue about anything. Thanks! I have a 79 corvette that I am restoring, just got the nitrous hooked up. Oh what FUN!!!
I had heard that The Turbo Shop (Steve Cole) was working on the later flash stuff, but I haven't heard of any results.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-10-2001, 11:20 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Like a ROC 89:
Are you guys running 28 to 30 degrees on 87 or 93 octane? What I am saying is it possible to run say the stock ARAP spark table with 93 octane with minimal retard?
93 or the best your area has..
You will pay x dollars to go x distance. What you save at the pumps you'll spend in early valve jobs.
The premium fuels burn with min ash. Ash is what holds the exhaust valves off of their seats and allows them to burn. Mind you we're talking microscopic traces.
It's nice seeing guys see the light !!!.
It's all about timing, and fuel.
As far as reasearch and doing it's more like 51% doing and 49% listening / reading.
If your using care in your tuning there is about no way you'll be running too much timing long enough to do any damage, if and only if your into notes and painstaking detail.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2001, 06:17 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Yelofvr:
Grumpy: So the ash thats left after the fuel burns acts like a thermal insulator and does not let the exhaust valve transfer its heat out to the cylinder head? I never heard about this before, you always have very interesting comments. It is clear to me you always look a little deeper to really understand whats going on. Thanks for sharing with us!
Roughly 60% of the exhuast valves heat transfer is thru the valve stem, the rest is thru the valve seat. Losing the seat for heat transfer is a death warrant the for valve.
There is alot going on with the valves that contibute to their life expectancy.
Tuning rich to use fuel to cool the valve when at WOT is a trick sometimes used, also to control chamber temps., but as illustrated from the above there is a big downside.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2001, 06:52 AM #20
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Remember start with a min amount of timing and WORK UP, from that. It seems like every one is starting high, and then backing down.
Detonation is a very real engine killer.
Cruise and idle aren't that critical for the amount of time it takes to dial in an engine.
Also, remember that in the Distributor'd engines there is a limit for the advance the ecm will calculate, so in most calibrations a cruise advance of 45d (as limited in the code) is all you can run.
One item I just found last night in the LT1s from the F Bod to B bod calibrations is that fuel VE tables are about the same, and they just changed the timing, with the F Bods getting more. And there are some serious timing changes, ie 10d in spots. Just a FWIW,
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2001, 08:19 PM #25
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
28-30* max advance- Is this with the stock cam and intake? I suspect that you could run more timing with a cam that has more duration than stock. More duration will bleed off cyl pressure and permit more timing.
I bring up the intake because the long runners in the TPI are good at filling the cylinders at lower rpm, causing more cyl pressure. So, WHEN is the knock retard occuring? Maybe if the timing is added later in the power band, you should be able to add more theoretically.
Heads are another issue. The TPI heads still have the crappy combustion chamber. Modern combustion chambers, such as the Vortech heads, most aftermarket heads, and especially the GM fastburn, will also permit more timing.
If you have some or alot of these aftermarket parts on you engine, I suspect you could run more timing. I'll bet an engine wtih a miniram, or superram(so you can acrually rev it some), aftermarket heads, and more cam duration, would be able to accept the increased timing, providing that the fuel ratios are somewhat optimum. Wouldn't life be jolly if we could all afford wideband O-2 sensors?
You just might do some homework, well designed heads allow for making more HP with less timing.
Once the mechanicals of the engine are set then you tune to them. Long runner short runners whatever.
WB O2s, have little to do with anything. They are just a tuning tool. No even as good as reading a spark plug. Yes, I have one, and 99% of the time it's on the self.
while currently under redesign, there is a DIY WB O2 vailable at DIY-EFI. the new version uses few components and is easier to assemble.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2001, 09:40 PM #31
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by steve8586iroc:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think to get a correct plug reading you have to shut the engine off at the point where you want to take the reading from. If it's top end then you better have a good long strait road to coast down on. Like I said above someone correct me if I'm wrong, pllleeeaassse!!
Steve
You start conservatively,and do cuts.
You work up adding timing in just a block or two at a time, not the whole thing at once.
Takes lots of cuts to get a WOT curve right.
ie work at say 800-1600, then 1400-2200. Just small areas at a time.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2001, 09:56 PM #33
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
Actually I have done head homework. While your statement is very true, and commonly known, A better combustion chamber also allows for slightly more timing.
A better combustion has a much faster burn rate to create more cylinder pressure, and do it sooner. This happens because the mixture is more completely burned while the piston is closer to TDC. So the combustion occurs at a point when there is more initial cylinder pressure from compression.
Turbulence is also important because it keeps the mixture atomized better. The mixture in motion stays better atomized. The atomization is better in part because the swirl and turbulence moves the mixture past the hot exhaust valve area, and the fuel droplets get vaporized by this heat.
The spark plug in a better comb. chamber is closer to the center of the bore, and is aimed at the exhaust valve. The mixture is better atomized around the exhaust valve in part due to the heat of the exhaust valve.
The faster the mixture gets burned, the less of a chance for another unwanted one to counter it and give you a ping or detonation. Because of this you can run slightly more timing.
I am not stupid as your attitude suggests. I do know a thing or two about heads.
As for a WBO2 having little to do with anything, I do not agree. It tells you your AFR. While AFR is most certainly not the whole story, it is a powerful tool, and important in engine function. You can tell very quickly where you are at. Just because you do not use one does not mean that us novice(stupid) tuners would not benifit from it. If you like looking at spark plugs, fine. If you like your WBO2, fine. To each his own.
Finally, Thank you for the DIY-EFI info on the WBO2. I was wondering where some info on that might be found.
What ever.
You can attach whatever you want to something addressed to you, but that doesn't make it true. Homework has absolutely nothing to do with stupid. Exposure, and open mindedness is what matters.
Optimum AFR is dicated by what the engine wants and needs. Once you have found the best performance of your engine then recording it can be an advantage in diagnostics. Tuning to get a specific AFR won't always work for best performance.
Plug reading is a science. Mastering that can be more important then most would expect.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2001, 11:41 PM #35
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
Very good points! I guess I am living in my carb tuning days, I didn't realize that the knock sensor works so quickly. So if I see a consistant knock retard and counts, should I work to tune out the knock as a result raise power that would be lost in the retard function, or is this just someting to live with? I have seen 87 degs. in knock retard a few times. Just for reference I am running Vette heads, so I am still playing with the timing. Thanks!
There is some hysterise (?).
A single knock event can cause 3d of timing to be pulled out, and that stays out as a function of the knock decay rate. On the oem cals, they ramp it out rather slowly, since they are for *stock* engines you can raise the knock retard decay quite a bit. I've seen 250-400% used. You gotta play with it.
Remember there is always going to be that bad tank of gas. So you need some room.
Like I really doubt I'll need 30d on knock limits, but I have it there just cause....
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2001, 11:49 PM #36
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
GlenS, software issue with what, the fact that I get 0 spark control counts, OR the lack of the "knock retard deg" parameter? I also use the Ease Scan tool. Don't you just love it?? LOL
As far as my spark advance settings, my plan is to back the distributer advance back down to 6deg, from 10deg now. Then start using the values from an '87 350TPI bin. Then start taking lots of data. I'm still using other table values from my stock '88 bin. I think the ARAP spark advance table is a bit too aggressive for a somewhat stock L98.
For a street daily driven SBC running EFI 8d works really well. Too little and the engine kinda windmills on start. To much can make for poor restarts. 10d on real hot day might not catch on the first crank, and then you might need to use the clear flood mode to light it. The battery voltage corrections, start adding alot of fuel when the battery voltage drops like on a real hot restart where the starter drags.
-----------------------------------
Old 07-21-2001, 03:05 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 383GTABoy:
Alright guys im going crazy i cant figure out what is going on with my starting problem
Here is whats happening. It will start almost all the time when it is cool, but when it is hot Diacom says pulse is 0.0 If I shoot it with a bit of starting fluid the injectors will come on when the motor gets over 5 or 6 hundred and then idles good (just a bit lean 130 BL). It is a 88 TPI running arap (Still does it with the stock chip) 383 Ci, cam is just a bit warm, MSD coil, MSD ignition, Accel 24# Inj. I just tried changing the distributor for a new one so thats not the problem. What exactly is it that tells the injectors to fire, its the distributor coil right? Anybody got any ideas? PLEASE HELP!!
Do you have spark, when just cranking the engine?.
Does the car have VATS?.
The ecm needs to see a distributor ref pulse to fire the injectors.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-25-2001, 07:05 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Great Reading Material
Delphi SAE stuff on line
http://www.delphiauto.com/pdf/sae/1999-01-0549.pdf
http://www.delphiauto.com/pdf/sae/1999-01-0546.pdf
--------------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-25-2001, 02:20 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
No Onboard ROM to fight
On the C3 series of ecms, you can rewire them and remove the onboard ROM, so that all the code and stuff can be rewritten. On my 1227148, a friend just did this for me. Now instead of using a 2732 I can use a 27128, and do whatever I want code wise.
Still lots of work to do, as far as commenting the code, and getting it so it reassembles, but the car runs just fine on this *new* ecm.
The C3 series covers all the 3rd Gen TBIs, and 747.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-25-2001, 04:49 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
Just when I thought I was started to understand this stuff you throw that out! Grumpy you never fail to amaze me
There is more to come.
It will be awhile, but once I get a lil further along, I hope to develope some patchs that can be transferred from one Mask to another. ie like an antilag feature, that would run in the 730s, 165s, 749s, 148s, 747s, etc..
I'm still working on it, but I'd like to have module code, so anyone could graft together any program they wanted.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2001, 11:20 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
Is the 165 for all years, JUST a 165? were there any changes? Or the same dang box for all years??
165 is short for 1227165, which is a gm part number. It was used in 86-89 FBody V8, amongst OTHER applications, ie some 4 cylinder trucks used them.
There have been some gm updates and supercesions.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-26-2001, 04:19 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86Red4+3:
On another list, somebody once asked if the factory ever used reman ECM's (seriously!) and this response came from a GM mechanic:
Quote:
As for the reman 1227165 no car came from the factory with a reman ECM, but this is the original model ECM which was very prone to circuit board cracking and was a real problem so I would not be surprised to find a replacement in there. If you were going to replace it know you would use a 16198259 a much better ECM.
So now I'm wondering if I buy a reman ECM from 'zone or carpartsdotcom and it's not specifically a Delco reman, will it still be the better ECM? I assume Delco by default uses the updated design when supplying a reman '165?
The problem is soldering, and traces lifting.
For the millions out there it really isn't a major problem. Just that it can happen. The only real cure seems to be just going MAP, with a 730. The Australian 808 which is the same board is trouble free.
One of lifes little mysteries.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-26-2001, 08:43 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron91RS:
Thats the title of one of my tables. I thought the AFR should be 14.7:1 at low RPM's and then drop to 12:1 at higher RPM's under WOT. My stock lo5 table says the below.
Am I to interpert it as 12.4:1 and so on or are these numbers a function of something else. If it is a 12.4:1 at 400RPMS shouldn't it be higher?
RPM | AFR
-----------
400 | 12.4
1200 | 11.1
2000 | 11.8
3200 | 10.6
4800 | 12.0
14.7:1 is strickly for emissions, and had little to do with what an engine actuals wants or likes. BTW, it's a average AFR.
You tune to what an engine tells you it wants. Never to what YOU think it wants.
Reading thru some of the past postings here will explain things in better detail.
------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2001, 07:54 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
Okay this may be a dumb a$$ question. I am not running a EGR and have been told that the engine will require more timing. My understanding is to keep my physical timing mark (6*)and increase the timing in the prom for total timing. Is that right? I am at 6 BDC now, do I need to move it to 8 or 12? The car seems happy at 6 BDC, so I'm a bit confused on what I have heard. I plan on spending some major data logging time tomorrow.
If your not running EGR, have you disabled it in the code?, or just unplugged it?.
Just unplugging it, screws things up.
Find someone else to listen to.
There is plenty of EGR info., in past posts here.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2001, 07:50 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ColinOpseth:
i'm jsut wondering how the EGR would be accounted for by the ECM..
here's my predicament.. I am getting EGR codes constantly. I have a new EGR on the car, when i replaced the original one I noticed a TON of buildup in the EGR passages but didn't ahve the time to pull off the intake and get it tanked..
i'm wondering how the ECM interacts with the EGR and if it checks up on the EGR (or somehow crossreferences EGR operation in a table..)
as well, the car tends to surge on the freeway.. i know EGR can cause this.. the idle is rough, to the point the car is missing.. could this be the EGR, too?
What i'm 'really' trying to find out here is this:
With the EST disconnected the car purrs, with it connected the car runs horrible. I'm assuming that with the EST disconnected the ECM would not be pulsing the EGR, only running off the PROM?
thanks for the input guys...
Colin
If you run EGR then the system needs to be right, ie passageways open.
If you elect to run without EGR you can turn it off in the chip.
The codes your getting are mechanical repair items, if the passageways are plugged well sounds like that is your problem.
You need to get some sort of scan tool to figure out what the ecm is doing, if disconnecting the ESC makes it run better.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2001, 05:50 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
Looks like I'm not getting reference pulses. When the starter is engaged, it fires, but when I let off the key it doesn't fire.
I don't see where the injectors even tried to fire.
At a glance looks like a VATS problem.
How'd it start at 3,200 rpm?.
Has a Gms/sec., so MAF is at least awake.
Module, ecm?, got a spare ecm to try?
Fuses all good?.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2001, 04:32 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Craig Moates:
Sorry to be a bit off topic, but...
Has anyone seen one of these things yet? I hear they're pretty sweet, and there's a performance version for marine applications. 420HP/505ftlb stock GM 8.1 Liter. The HiPo comes with forged crank and such...
Anyhow, more on-topic, what would be a good way to go about diddling the ECM on one of these bad boys? It runs off the MEFI-4? They say it has 'drive-by-wire' throttle control, sounds interesting.
So has anyone had experience with this sort of beast?
-Craig
The whole MEFI series of ecms for some reason are very hard to crack, several have tried and given up, thou the info., is out there, somewhere.
I saw a bin for one, and they are very simple, using a PW for the VE table entries etc.
I know of one of the MEFI systems running in a car, but it has issues since not tuneable, other then at AS+M. Seems like a 730 is being considered.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2001, 06:55 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
Can I use flash chips in the GN ecm,which is the 148 right? I know the bin is smaller than even the MAF bins, which are $6E correct? The smallest flash chips you can buy are 256k, which is the 29C256 right? When using these chips on a 165 ECM you put the program in twice or something like that, do you put it in four times on a GN ecm, or can it even be done? If anyone could clear this up I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks
The short answer is no.
I have 148 that now uses a 27128, so I'll be able to run the flash 256s. But the ecm needs some internal modifications to remove the ROM, and incorporate it into the single prom. The 2732 is a 24 pin eprom and the 256 is a 28.
I've run my car with both the 128s, and 256s now, but I have to have the injector drivers changed since I'm running PnH injectors.
I have a .ASM that assembles, and now putting together a fully commented one. But, it takes days to even make a dent in it. Hang in there thou, it's coming.
Now you could make a prom switcher but for all the work to do that, you can modify the ecm. The down side to prom switchers is that they can pick up noise (electrical) and go goofy on you.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2001, 05:40 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Lionsden:
Ken
Ok, you got me over here to the DIY PROM section and even registered. I have been doing a lot of reading and rereading. Now my head hurts. I hope your happy!!!
when ya get all this assimulated hit the DIY-EFI.org site go to incoming, and get a copy of the gmecm and diy-efi archives, and wade thru that a few times. Then, you'll be so confused you'll have to start all over again.
..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-28-2001, 08:09 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by irocz:
I've got an accel dfi setup with the fasttrack performance interface. I was wondering (although I'm sure there is some bias here) whether I should go ahead & install it or learn how to burn proms.
I have been trying to sell the dfi, but I can't seem to get rid of it so I am seriously thinking about just going ahead & installing it. The only problem is that I will have to convert to a map sensor & I don't want to lose my maf.
Has anyone on here used/installed one before & can give me some advice on how easy/hard it is to use compared to just cooking proms?
thanks,
Dan
There is a difference between logic, and bias
No one has invested the money that GM has in ecm design. I carry a spare ecm for grins, gets expensive with the after markets.
The aftermarkets are easy to work with because they are so crude. Gets us to weither you want right or just good.
I've seen more lousy running aftermarkets, then modified oem stuff.
Burning chips lets you stop to think about what your doing rather then plowing along. It's easy to miss the whole tune, when you can make so many changes so fast.
Hmm, if you can't sell it maybe there is a clue in there. Maybe folks are begining to figure out the oems are worth playing with. The aftermarkets were a big deal before the oems got figured out.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-28-2001, 08:16 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Gta-Paladin:
I was talking to an individual at a shop near me and he was trying to discourage me from prom burning... i mentioned i was interested and asked what he thought. He said it's dangerous blah blah blah you can mess your engine up blah blah blah just use our dyno. Is prom burning REALLY that dangerous? And correct my if im wrong but, i can keep the stock prom and just buy new eproms to put in and burn correct?
Engine tuning is engine tuning.
Too lean too much timing, ain't good.
Read up on prom burning, and how to do it, and you'll see how misinformed the other guy was.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-31-2001, 09:43 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
Will an excessive rich condition during part throttle driving foul the O2? (BLM 108, INT < 128 and rodent killing exhaust on cold startup)
If it does get fouled, must it be replaced or will it clean off when the rich condition is fixed?
What happens to the BLM in stock vehicles as the O2 gets too old. Do they increase, adding fuel?
Run one long enough and the carbon will be so thick as to never wear down again, and then yes it is junk. *can* an O2 con bak to life?. Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.
I have yet to see on fail from age.
I've heard of them going 200,000 miles on a well tuned car.
If not poisoned (which kills most of them I've seen), then they generally fail by going open, and setting a code 13.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
---------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-31-2001, 09:47 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
This is a problem that happens just about every time I shift after an agressive take off. Ever since I converted to SD, it has been doing it. I notice absolutely nothing in my diacom recordings that points to a possible cause. I have been having a problem with non PE accells when I hold in gear. For instance, start in first and slowly keep pushing the throttle to 45% or so and let the RPMS climb to 6000 about a 60-70 KPA areas. I have spots where where I'm too rich and my INT falls and then goes lean, car sputters and then recovers. This has really been hard to figure out. Anyone else ever had a similar problem to what I am describing? WOT the car is a beast.
Jason
Are you using a manual memcal/bin to start with?.
A real low back pressure exhaust tends to crackle. Might take a look at your DFCO stuff and see where your at, and try playing some with that.
Might try working with lowering your IAC counts.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-30-2001, 09:58 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
this is attributed to what most likely? the increase in fuel demanding more air? what?
maybe you can explain why this note change occurs.
Due to the difference in the exhaust gas velocity.
The crackle in a fuelers exhaust is from each pulse still being mach+, and the exhaust pulses hit the atmospheric air.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-31-2001, 11:40 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Nightcruzer:
Will Craig Moates' software work for a 83 computer controlled q-jet equipped lg4? I really want to fine tune and would like something to read my 02, TPS, dwell, rpm etc.
Thanks
On the CCC systems, most everything fuel wixe you need to do is mechanical. Doug Roe's Book about Q-Jets has all the answers on the carb circuits and how to make it work.
The ZZ3 installation kit has the part numbers for the right calibration, and ecm, K/S to use. I spent years tinkering with the CCC Q-Jets, and bought every chip available for them and nothing was as good as the ZZ3 setup. There really isn't much you can do with that ecm.
I wound up changing over to TBI, from the CCC.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Old 07-31-2001, 11:30 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
thanks, i appreciate it.
If I put in a Vacum or Mechanical advanced HEI distrubtor...
Would that throw a code?
It wouldn't put it into limp mode would it?
As long as the ecm sees all the signals your fine, ie EST and ref..
2/3 of the power of EFI is in timing control.
You'll get much further by prom burning.
Limp Home mode is ONLY when the Processor fails in some manner.
This list is about prom burning, undoing part of the system, because you don't want to do prom burning is enough to me to close or delete the thread.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-31-2001, 11:47 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Guys,
I have been having a problem with cold start issues, the car runs well at 40d of timing or a little more/less at cruise. Well when I initially start the car it is a little ruff but not bad. But as soon as I put some load on it while driving it only reads about 20d of timing, give or take a few d. Is the above table the one used to adjust this problem?
I can actually watch diacom and after X amount of seconds it kicks out of "the routine" and bumps the D back up to 40+ and it runs great in open loop.
I've tried adding 10+ d to the startup spark advance with no ill effect.. Very odd.
Brendan
there is a cold engine spark bias.
Rarely do you need to play with that.
Often the cold start stuff is too lean and that bumps the antistall code, and things look real confusing on a scanner.
I'd first try a little richer in cold start, and see if that doesn't help most
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2001, 07:37 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by RS91:
Is it possible to swap ECM comming from a 91 RS Camaro that has a Auto trans to 91 RS Camaro that has Manual trans...
Thanks
So long as you switch the prom/memcal from one to the other.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2001, 05:41 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86 sports coupe:
I have a Lg4 car.I plan on doing mild mods
like exhaust performer intake maybe a mild cam and a 3:45 9bolt rear.I also have an L69 aircleaner for this car also.I Plan on using
These parts later on a 350 when the 305 tires
out.What Prom should i order?(
Get the instruction manual for the ZZ3 engine retrofit. It has all the parts numbers, ecms, etc that you need for a CCC. Then get Doug Roe's Q-Jet Book.
Tune as necessary
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-31-2001, 11:36 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by John Boy:
Traxion's article lists '86 as being 8192 but the DIYer cable sites all have pin E, which I use since I have no M, as being 160 baud.
I built a cable for 8192 but had to hook it to pin E. Should I build a cable for 160 baud? Thanks
A 165 can talk 8192, depending on the code (in the ecm), and software (scanner) you're running.
--------------------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-31-2001, 11:54 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Limp Home Mode-Final Answer
Limp Home Mode is just for a processor failure. It means the ecm is using the RFD (redundant fuel devise).
Fail Soft Mode, is when there is a failure of some sort like a Coolant temp sensor and the ecm is using a **default** value, and is running on that.
Period.
Might as well spread the word, so we all get to being on the same wave lenght.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2001, 05:47 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobalos:
If you dont mind, can you tell us what does work & what does not? I have studied the prints for my ecm (7730) & it appears that if the Processor shuts down it does not pet the watch dog (or something similar to this type of action) & the LHM takes over & starts to "run" the ECM. This being said, the car is going to run as well as it can for the LHM that is built into the Memcal. this means that if you have a bone stock L98 it will probably run OK, but for me with a superram & some cam, the motor is going to barely run. In other words the tuneup for the engine combination is in the Memcal & Ign module.
when in LHM, the ALDL, purge canister, EGR, AC, & other small stuff does not work, but the basic, timing, & Injectors does.(?) this is more of a quesiton than a statement.
when in FSM, the processor is actually running, but because of a failed component it has to assume some default value for that sensor. Using your CTS example, it will assume a coolant temp of 195 Deg F (for the sake of argument) & goes on with life using that defualt value. @ the same time it will set a code for the failed CTS, & flash the CEL.
I would expect that the rest of the engine systems would work as they ought to (egr, canister purge, AC etc), including the ALDL port (you would hope right?).
thank you mucho.
BW
In fail soft, everything is working. Just a steady *on* engine light.
Flickering light is indicative of LHM.
LHM is fixed timing, ecm wise. The module does have some self advance in it, so there is some timing change, but not due to ecm control.
LHM is just that. On some applications, you will be lucky to get to the side of the road. On some ecms (ie the 165 with the 6E code), you wind up in an Alpha-N command system, and surprisingly good running.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-11-2002, 02:52 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jmd
It's my understanding that w/ out the MAF, he'll be in limp home mode.
On sequential LT1's (94-97), this will "revert to batch fire & result in a major loss of economy & power"
If it's in limp home mode, it'll be running rich, so it might "feel good" but you'd be missing out on economy, spark curve (might not be too noticable) and other items...
NO.
Limp Home Mode is in case of PROCESSOR failure.
Running with a sensor disconnected, the ecm will use a set of default values, and FAIL SOFT.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-11-2002, 02:56 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86TpiTransAm
Would an '89 IROC have the 165 ecm with the 6E code and would this "running in Alpha-N" be the reason why my friends MAF is uplugged and it doesn't change how the car is running?
It might not feel terribly different, but that is just showing what a lousy sensor the human body is.
The human body is easy to fool.
Drive and STS and you'll think your in a fast ol barge, break out the stopwatch, and you'll see your in a yawnmobile.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-11-2002, 05:09 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jmd
It's my understanding that w/ out the MAF, he'll be in limp home mode.
Maybe you should actually read the code to grasp it, rather then going on what you understand things to be.
Have you read the LT1 code?.
It doesn't seem to make sense to go to batch fire over loosing a MAF. Even without the MAF it can do a calculation based on the MAP.
BTW, in back to back tests my car runs better in batch fire rather then SEFI.
BTW, there's lots of nonsense being repeated as truth on the LT1s, and it seems some folks think because things are repeated so often makes them true.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-12-2002, 02:42 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jmd
You had a big opinion of yourself on control arm discussion on gnttype.org years ago. I didn't get cocky about this, all I said was "it is my understanding that..."
If you care to correct, then you should post the correct information, not just flame.
The info that the LT1 goes to batch w/ MAF failure comes from the factory service manual, i.e. Helms. I can fully enjoy the fact that you dislike me, but I am regurgitating info directly from it, so retort to Uncle Helms, not me. I don't care if it "makes sense" to you for it to go batch, that's what factory documentation says that it does. Can Helms be wrong? Yes. Do I agree that reverting to batch doesn't make sense? Yes. Was that the point? No.
No, I have not slept with & had a relationship with LT1 code. Yet. Maybe after I've had all the experience you've had w/ code, I'll understand your bitterness. But, I was just trying to help. It's a bad habit of mine to refer to things as "limp home" when there can be further clarification made to a "fail soft" mode. So sue me.
Your attitude of "period." at the end of statements is deserved in some cases; you know an obscene amount of good stuff about our cars. But you're still capable of making assumptions and being wrong, just like the rest of us. Keep your ears & mind open. Even when you know it all, there's still more to learn.
Matthew
What a post about a arms has to do with the price of tea in china is pointless, and i fail to see the relationship with prom burning.
There is no bitterness in my posts, you're just reading things into it.
GM has been teaching stuff full of errors for years, and that doesn't make it right. If you quote something as being true, you're responsible for what you're saying.
Funny how when anyone gets corrected the immediate response is using the word flame.
Weither you like it or not, there is a difference from fail soft to limp home. If you want to continue to use the phase improperly, well, don't get upset about being corrected.
BTW, when I am corrected, I don't going hollering about being flamed. When I'm wrong, I admit it and just go on.
BTW, I don't try and remember everyone I write to, so my reply to you was minus any alledged attitude, from a thread from years ago.
ECM content,
Some people still think a 730 has two injector drivers in it. Yep, the accuracy of some training manuals is just wrong.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-12-2002, 06:08 PM
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-13-2002, 12:04 AM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by kvu
but could you give me some detail as to what the counts in the maf tables stand for,please w/ vurtual sugar on top?
I'm not clear on what exactly your asking. Maybe a snippet of actual source code will explain it.
These values are what calibrate the MAF to convert the maf signal into a form for calculating the grm/sec at any given point in time.
*################
* FMTBL1 TABLE
* MASS FLOW TABLE 1 FOR FM AIR METER
* TABLE VALUE = GRAMS OF AIR/SECOND (9 VALUES)
* 0-22 Gms/sec
*################
*TBL2D,9,2,TBL25,1,'GM/SEC'
*EQU N=E*256/FMTBL1
FCB 142
FCB 142
FCB 142
FCB 142
FCB 142
FCB 142
FCB 165
FCB 195
FCB 231
---------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2001, 07:03 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
canister purge is good for what.
i do like it having the iat. i think it helps the computer with the map sensor in figureing how much fuel to add.
I ran a 747 for years on a hot rodded 355, and the IAT made about 0 difference, in the winter I just set the distributor back a couple degrees.
When the 747 does the intial Baro Comp., it takes care of that. Only problem with a 747 is if it's in a heated garage, and you drive out into snowy weather it takes a brisk accleration to take a second baro calc and then it's OK.
On a Turbo or S/C engine the situation is completely different.
BTW, on the GNs they had an IAT and the IAT timing correction is 0'd out, where in the N/A 148 ecms they used it.
It would be neat if some one did an IAT patch for the 747, as I recall they both use the same printed circuit board, but the on board ROM messes things up.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-30-2001, 10:09 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
Is this normal? I would think so, but what does the ECM use for spark advance while in a WOT condition? The table I see in TC is "spark advance in WOT vs RPM", but only has 5 rpm levels and the advance numbers are less than 10. I recorded some data during a run down the 1/4 mile, and am wondering about this advance stuff. Here are some numbers:
speed=50.1 mph
engine=3400rpm
filtered load variable=233 LV8
spark advance relative to TDC=34.8 deg
knock retard=12.7 deg
spark control counts= 72
All numbers taken at the same point in time at WOT. Is my "effective advance"= to 22.1?
I am using most all values from the ARAP bin, except for the main spark advance vs RPM table.
Thanks for any support.
If your hitting the K/S that is a bad thing, since the ecm will make every effort to dtop the *Knock*, meaning it adds more then enough retard to stop it.
Sounds like your looking at a Spark adder for PE/WOT.
Remember the less timing you use the better (per given performance level). The old nonsesne about running the max possible is exactly that, nonsense). tune to what the engine wants, not what you feel it needs.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-31-2001, 11:43 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by RBMZ28:
Bear with me guys,I've down loaded bins(stock)for 87IROC auto 350 and other data but it comes out gibberish on screen.Is something not compatible?Also where can I go to get the meanings of the abbreviations you guys use in writing?I've been reading different post to familiarize myself with steps,procedures,and prom info, but some of it excapes me.appreciate any info on this.
Hmm, are you using a Hex Editor?
Just opening a bin with wordpad will generate nonsense.
Using a prom editor, will organize and convert the bin to meaning stuff
If you go to www.tunercat.com there is a demo., and then get a mask 42 broadcast code bin and you can see whats going on when you use an editor
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-31-2001, 11:33 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Camaro_hunter_d:
and I had another question... I am going to do this myself but I simply don't know jack about this. How can I modify the chip to work with my 160 thermo, and ploished intakes??? I don't know what to change and what not... just asking for help. I just don't want to spend 2 days doing something that is wrong.(and could possibly damage the engine)
there is a bin library at diy-efi.org, I forget if it's under GMECM or DIY-EFI, but it's there.
At DIY-EFO.Org in incoming is a tuning.doc
might try reading that. Also, just going thru the past posts here is a good idea
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2001, 06:07 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt87GTA:
Well I wouldn't say ignore the O2 volts completely. It is one of the inputs that the ECM uses to calculate the Block Learn and Integrator. The problem is the O2 is often cycling too fast for the scanning software to be accurate. But if his O2 is just sitting at 152mv at all times, he either has a dead O2 or it is a very strong indication that he is indeed very lean.
Which brings me to this question; are those figures from WOT of just random captures?
If they are from WOT, I think the O2 can be a useful tool in tuning. I am no expert, but I think that when going to WOT the O2 will give fairly accurate readings as to where the AF ratio is at.
The oem O2 sensors are just switches, the just report rich or lean, trying to read more into them then that is like trying to tell your future by reading tea leaves.
Just moving mine changed the cruise voltage 30 millivolts. I have a lean cruise mode, and my ecm goes to a commanded BL in cruise. So that it should be relatively a constant AFR and PW (for a given situation). The only way to get more then rich or lean from one is using a Wideband O2 sensor.
If you search the DIY-EFI.org archives there is a ton of info., about O2 sensors. Including patent and SAE paper references.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2001, 06:09 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by rezinn:
How much have you guys spent starting up in PROM burning, and how much time have you invested? I have some time before school starts, so Im wondering if this would be viable for me.
You can get up and running for less then $200. The big aid in doing your own chips is having a scanner. Options for a scanner are from a couple bucks to a grand.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2001, 06:13 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodB:
What changes would be recommended to make to the prom in order for it to work safe and good with for example a Paxton or ATI supercharger?
Or do they work okay with just a standard PROM if the rest of the engine is pretty stock? Been thinking of getting one, but would like to know a bit more about it first, since I want to try to do it myself...
If you're talking about more then 3 lbs boost then you need to start getting serious about the calibration, the syclones used a 2 bar MAP sensor, and the code is hac'd for the application. try sumthin like www.syty.org . Should have a ton of info there about chips and the 1227749 ecm. In the archives at DIY-EFI.org is the pinout changes to run the syty code in a 730 ecm. Depends some on application about what you can do with the crossover memcal deal.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2001, 05:56 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
Hey guys,
On a stock chip, say for years 85-87 whats the highest advance they came with? And is it in addition to the base? like 40 in the chip, 6 base = 46 advanced
Because my car at 3000 rpms is running 40 degrees advanced only 6*
This is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. Doesn't seem right either, did the 85 have some really horible spark tables, or is something wrong?
thanks!
In WOT, the key is running as little timing as consistant with max performance. There are lots of fast cars running less then 30d timing, and some less then 20 (turbo'd).
While *slow* that is in electrical terms. No human can detect the difference in cpu speeds (in gm ecms). Most good drivers, can barely feel .1sec, in throttle response. The best of the F1 guys can just barely feel .01. The GM ecms figure cals generally at 12.5 msecs. So unless your just out of the level of being a F1 driver, you **might** notice it.
--------------------------------
Old 05-18-2001, 10:58 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I'd like to install a zif socket where my ash tray is. That way I can take the chip out for security reasons AND it makes changing chips a LOT easier.
I ordered a few zif sockets, they came today but I wasn't here to sign for them.
I also have a zif receptical with long prongs. Is it going to stay in the socket without the plastic eprom carrier piece?
Slide the ZIF or end of the cable into a eprom holder (needs long leads). Then insert as you would normally.
Some cars are real bad RFI wise and this won't work in, cause of the long wires. Might wrap, the *extension* cable with some AL foil
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 07:32 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by v8power:
the only porblem is he is a Ford guy (I am trying to talk some sense into him) and he owns a 1990 TBird Super Coupe once he heard about what I can do to my car he was interested
are there any sites that do this sort of thing for the evil competition?
thanx
Tell him to get a GM remote IAC kit like Az S+M sells, and start wiring in a GM ecm.
Don't laugh, there are some real fast fords running GM ecms. I'm not sure what their final specifics were, but for a MAP S/C system some of them ponies went real fast.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 12:10 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by v8power:
do you have a link hany pointing to a site with some info
I really doubt you'll see any Ford guys advertizing the fact the're running GM ecms.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 05:34 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MATEOZ28:
In winbin how do you change from a 5 speed to auto? Because I have a saved bin for a car with almost exactly my exact same mods just the difference in transmissions. Also what else should I change when doing this? All I see is a bunch of abbreveations I dont understand. Sorry to bug you guy's but I'm just learning. Thanks
Having a manual bin. really isn't a help. The difference in how the engine sees the load thru a converter as compared to a clutch is entirely different.
I generally respond to postings that go unanswered, so when you post to your own posting it looks at a glance like you've gotten help. It's only when out of things to do that I go thru things post by post.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-03-2001, 01:50 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Seems as though I'm always having problems. I have one last major issue to tackle with my SD conversion. All of this problem happens in NON PE mode. I have my threshold set to 50% currently for PE. Also my BLM is locked at 128.
Here is a scenerio. Crusing in third gear RPM's at 2500 foot off the throttle. Depress throttle to approximately 50% with KPA areas in the high 80's low 90's. INT starts to go down from 2500 to about 3500 to about 108 or so. At around 3500 I'm just about dead lean car is hesitating and O2's are around 40mv. By about 4000 its recovered. Its when the INT bottoms out that the car runs lean. The real problem is that the lean spot seems to float around. If I adjust it out of one spot, it seems to move to a different RPM area. FP is good also under load. I really am stumped on this one. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Jason
Without seeing you timing table, I'd be suspesious that your not taking enough timing out fast enough as you go from cruise timing to WOT.
Just off the top of my head starting with 30 KPa (or LV8 30) on the left, 100 (LV8 255)on the right and at 2500 rpm I look for something like this assuming no PE timing
30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
0 45 43 38 34 30 28 26
Timing has everything to do with O2 readings.
While not to bad a steady state, in transistions it does.
Try the above and let me know
Maybe post part of you VE and or timing table
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 07:49 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Grumpy,
I'll look at the timing table when I get home. I can post my VE curve also I think if I can figure out how to post it. My upper VE curve is very funky looking. It wants more fuel at 2300 or so, less at 2500 to 3000 and then alot more after that. What I don't know is if I aquired this shape due to something else such as timing. I consistantly get the big dip in INT and wham a big lean spot.
Jason
You just have to get used to doing what the engine tells you it wants. That's what goofs folks up. The ego wants to get in there and do things it's way, which generally are the wrong things, ie too much timing too much fuel, but you have to be careful when your doing it that way
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 07:42 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Sarkee:
I wanted a spare EPROM for my '86 Y-body, so I ordered one from Jeff Kopp (Superior Chevy). My '86 EPROM is a AMJ 0499 (BCC), so I looked at the 18 EPROM ("Calibrator") entries in my '91 parts book, and found the GM part #, which is 1228473.
The new Memcal comes in, p/n 1228473, but has a AARL 0122 chip in it. No problemo, I think - so I open it up in UltraEdit (hex) and the BIN is different...
Looking at it in TunerCat, it's pretty much the same. I'm going to try it this weekend, but can anyone tell me why the code wouldn't be *exactly* the same???
Maybe GM consolidated some chips???
GM is constantly refining the memcals, so there are often updates.
Yes the differences can be real dramatic
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2001, 09:45 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Sarkee:
They made the fan on-off/ac on-off temps the same...Lots of little changes in the tables...
The biggest change I can see is in the "Minimum Delta TPS for Accel. Enrich"...It dropped from 12.5% to 3.9%...
I don't know this...Is it Throttle Position Switch? Making the % of throttle movement less to signal the ECU to enrich the mixture??? Wouldn't that be a faster response???
TPS Throttle Posistion sensor.
Yes, faster acting acclerator *pump shot*
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2001, 12:33 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 88 350 tpi formula:
I saw a post recently that said what year corvett had 24# inj. I thought it was 85 or 86 could some one verify what year it was
They vary some by who's doing the testing, and or reporting.
Some use a 3 bar presure standard and others 39-45 PSI, there is no standard.
I personally wouldn't fret about 2#/hr.
I tend to go big and leave some head room.
55s on my 3.8L (sefi) <\cough>
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 05:26 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by -=Jeff=-:
I have some info that a 165 Knock sensor can be used on a 7730.. the info I have states
looking at my notes.. GF9 is for the ESC which sounds right..
but BB9 in my notes is for the VSS low connection..
does this all make sense? Will this work or do I have something wrong
I'd just do it as GM designed it.
they do have reasons for what they do.
There can be a big difference from what will work to what will work correctly. Knock detection is not the place to make bad guesses. If you really sure of your work you don't have to run a K/S, but with the gas situation as it is, I wouldn't risk it.
--------------------------------------
Old 08-04-2001, 09:41 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by John Millican:
I finally tried it. I extended my prom 3 feet to the center forward console. My memcal already has a ZIF socket and I used another ZIP socket for the other end. Now the engine runs, lags very much with the throttle and I have a steady SES light. My scanner also cannot communicate with the ECM anymore.
I used very high quality computer grade 14 pair twisted wire, triple shielded with the shield running to ground.
Has anyone successfully relocted the prom and how far?
I've never heard of anyone having long term luck with that. Just too much RFI.
Might try an AL wrap of the extension, but I still wouldn't drive the car in traffic.
Probably do better with an extension cable for the ecm.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-05-2001, 07:34 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by John Millican:
Guarenteed no RFI here. My cable is shielded and besides it's not even installed behind the dash yet. I have it on the floor just to see if it would work.
I really don't want the ECM in the console, I need that space for my junk since these cars don't have glove boxes.
Well if it was sheilded well enough then it should be working. EPROMs operate at low voltages, and extremely low amp levels, it doesn't take much to mess that up. 28 wires 3' long makes for 88' of antennae length.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-12-2004, 02:11 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
I wonder why the Romulator only uses a 9" cable. Or the Prominator.
Or why the early Xtronics emulator with the 2' long cord for the ECM wouldn't work. Or a couple of the other emulators.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2004, 04:29 PM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Re: Re: Re: relocated prom, runs like crap, SES light
Quote:
Originally posted by John Millican
No shorts I can assure you of that. Wiring is my business. I completely re-wire corporate jets for a living. I deal with thousands of wires daily. Wiring a simple jumper is babys work. Even a car is SO simple compared to what I deal with.
And what voltage levels are you working with?.
Have you done any EMP wiring jobs?.
If wiring is all so simple, you want to pop the top off of a processor and do some reworking in there?.
Avionics while wired together like a car, is a totally difference environment.
Not to mention that the ecm design spec didn't call for being able to do that so it was never a consideration. The prom is read with incredibly small amperages, so while whatever RF you have might not goof up your radio, it might totally wipe prom reading on a cable.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-05-2001, 07:49 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
I did a ton of data logging today, I want to make sure I understand Craig's scan tool. BLM Fine is the integer blm right? My blm fine is near 128 most of the time, but my blm coarse sticks in the 130s. Should I pay more attection to the blm coarse then the fine? I am still trying to find out why I have a stumble off idle. I am running ARAP code. Thanks!
If you within a couple counts of 128, your fine.
The ARAP may just have a tad too much timing in it for you, try pulling some timing out in the 1200 RPM, in the region of 60 Gms/sec.
Or even in the 48-80, depends on what editing software ya got running on what it looks like.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 09:52 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by v8power:
I just got a spare chip holder the original number on the side is68767 8707 it has a 27c256 and two other chips 16055375 and 16055376
the spare's number is 68767 8843
the eprom is a 27c128
and the two other chips are 16072665 and 16072667 ont the *667 chip legs 2 and 15 are cut and there is a resistor between contact 2 and 3 of this chip
will these two interchange for a 165 computer and what are the two other chips besides the eprom
any info take me one step closer to knowing every thing
there are 3 chips on a 165 memcal. The eprom as you see, then a netres (network resistor), and an ESC chip.
The 165 comes with a 27128 epeorm usually you can use the 256 by double loading the image into it, but the other two chips have to be right. Part of the netres is a resistor to set the hardware for cylinder select.
The closer the memcal to what your actually running the better. The netres also sets the RFD for limp home mode (reduntant fuel devise).
Welp, now ya know almost as much as I do.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-05-2001, 10:13 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
First of all, I'm using WinBin, Is WinBin missing some tables, arrays, or values?
If that does not answer it, where do you adjust timing? I saw the field "spark advance(rpm vs load)," but it only goes to 2000 RPM.
How do you adjust fuel? I assume you play with the "VE???(rpm vs load)" field.
Finally in the VE field, do you divide the cell value by 255 to get a percent value?
If anyone can clear this up, I would be greatful.
Few editors has access to the almost 300 different tables switches and settings. Going to www.gnttype.org and getting a copy of trepeom will show ya the full calibration field
The timing that stops at 2000 rpm is the WOT spark.
You use MAF tables not a VE table with the MAF systems.
First things to do with a serious Gn is get a MAF translator (Plus), Scanmaster, and Direct Scan.
Then you can get serious with tuning a GN.
FWIW.
Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 06:28 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
Would you use TREPROM to write your own def file in tunercat or something, or does tunercat already have a good def file? Apparently I am going to have to purchace better software to get into the meat of it.
I know a guy who lets me borrow directscan, but will soon be purchacing it.
What does the MAF translator do for you?
I use GMEPro, I do some incar stuff and like DOS stuff so I can use cheapy laptops.
tranlator lets you use late model MAF sensors, and with the GN ones being discontinued it's just a matter of time before you have to get it.
With the Translator plus you can change timinging and fuel, and get really close to the perfect chip with just twisting dials, if you have an extender chip.
If your doing you own chips with the translator, then you can dial in changes and see how it runs, then make chip changes and see how it runs. Saves alot of wear and tear on the prom holder
--------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 06:15 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Can I use a flash or eeprom in the 8746 (2732a eprom). How do I go about using the pocket programmer to erase them? Where to get them?
The flash proms are 28 pin and the 2732s are a 24 pin.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 07:55 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodB:
What do you think about the idea to make an adapter for using 28 pin FLASH chips instead of 2732s?
Of course a waste of chip space, but would make life easier for those with older ECM's?
/ZB
Seems like alot of effort for min gain. Why not make a chip switcher so you could load up 8 porgrams at a time?. then if you gonna get to that effort why not make it ROMless, and really be set.
The problem with the C3s in my book, are the prom holders are no longer being made.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
----------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 07:58 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I'm using the 8746 ecm (TBI) and I have a few questions about some constants I found in the 8746 hack file I aquired.
a) I heard that to disable the EGR you need to turn the temp down to -40 Deg. C because it's the opposite of the 7747. Is this true?
747 uses an inverse temp., dunno about the other oe.
b) Does the TCC lockup even under WOT
In the 747?, yes.
c) When installing a heated O2 sensor, what time should I use for "Cold Closed Loop Timer"?
No change needed.
d) Is it a good idea to turn down the Minimum MAP for BLM Enable to like 12?
No need to.
e) I have 2 EGR spark advance values! One is showing me 36.9 Deg and the other is 35.9. The hack didn't go into depth, it just said "EGR SA" for both. So what are these values?
f) What is the ALDL spark advance value? My stock eprom is showing me 2.1 deg.
If it's showing you 2.1, then it's 2.1..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 12:17 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by slowTA:
Here is the story... car ran fine so I parked it for the night and took out the diagnostic cable (Steve Ruse cable) because he accidently forgot to put in the 10K ohm resistor. I wanted to put in my own so I wont have to jump the resister myself all the time, no big deal just something I wanted to do. So I reconnected everything and left it for the night. Yesterday morning the car started (with the fan running) and ran really rough for about 5 seconds, then died.... it cranks and wants to run, but only for 5 seconds. So I try to check the codes and the SES light stays on all the time!!! even with the paper clip it... doesn't flash anything at all never mind a code.. just stays lit. I disconnected the computer and the light went out like it is supposed to. I figure it is a bad computer so I buy another remanufactured one and same thing!!!! The only code I got was about 2 weeks ago and it was a code 42... something about the distributor. But, that was only once... similar condiditons, ran really rough then stalled, gave me a code, then started and ran fine!!
What do I do now, I already bought a new computer for $100, and gave them my old one. I tried to check the sensors and relays to see if they fried the computer... but wouldn't you think the computer would be able to protect itself somehow instead of just dropping dead? I checked all of the fuses, I have fuel pressure, the starter works, and I check the connections from the ALDL to the computer... what gives!!
I just swapped the TPI from a carb and everything was working fine for about 2 or 3 weeks so I really doubt it would be a crossed wire, if it was wouldn't the computer last another 2 or 3 weeks before it died too! I had to reuse the original cal pack and chip, well the one that I modified. But the computer should still give a code even if I take out the chip and go into limp home right? It seems like the computer just died and cursed all that follow!
Assuming that the wiring is fine, after killing an ecm, wasn't a best opinion. Some parts places have a *test ecm* that you can plug in that will test for shorted sensors.
The ecms are really stout, it takes 15-20 mins. at 3x the rated loading to pop a Quad Driver, and that is excellent engineering.
Fans on, engine off, your in at least fail soft mode.
First check for a shorted sensor, then for one just out of spec..
Just get junkyard ecms, no sense paying more then you need to.
---------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 05:44 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
You have basically two main problems as I see it with a late model V6 3rd Gen.
1) You have SD, so you will need a custom eprom to make it run correctly. You have a 10% increase in displacement plus your VE is probably different between the 3.4 and 3.1. Really depends on your camshaft selection.
2) Very little information is known about the "404" used in the late model V6 ECM in 3rd Gens. Why GM did not use the 7730 like many of the other 3.1s is anybody's guess.
If GM had used a 7730, then you could have modified the $8D BINs to work for your V6 as there is a "# of cylinder selection" available on the $8D.
I have not been able to find a "hac", a bin or even a "definition" for the 404 used by F-body 3rd Gens. I am not saying they don't exist, but they are not readily available.
If I had a V6 and was able to read the Memcal, then I MAY be able to shed more light as whether you have any "easy" options.
One option that I CAN think of, is to convert to a 7730 like the SD TPI cars (and lots of other 3.1 V6s use). And then modify a SD TPI BIN by setting the "# of cylinder selct", injector size and displacement accordingly. At least, THEN you could modify your eprom EXACTLY like us SD TPI guys do...and speak our same langauge too.
Until I find more information on the 404 ECM used on 3.1 V6 3rd Gen F-bodies, this is the best suggestion I can make at this time.
If anyone else has a better suggestion or more information, please share.
There is a mini hac of one of the 6 cyl 730 cars floating around it's nothing like the 8D. For the 9 months work that goes into doing a hac, and in all this time, I doubt there will be one. So yes the 730 is going to be the only option. yes it will take work to get right.
----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2001, 04:41 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dyno Don:
Ok here's what I got, it runs good everything seems to be in the ballpark but no matter what I set the IAC steps to it won't go below 49. I set the target idle everywhere from 1 to 650 it still idles at 850. Yes, I have checked for vacuum leaks. Is there somewhere in tuner cat I can go to and change this? I am lost, can anybody help Grumpy, Glenn, Jon?
Key on
jumper A-B on the ALDL
wait a full minute
unplug IAC
key off
undo A-B jumper.
What is the idle speed?.
You have to match the mechanical setting to the commanded value, within reason. Ecm gets too confusing of steps/speed it will go into a fail soft mode. Even anti-stall.
Some one needs to sit down, and write out a hac on this ecm, it's about the same as a Mask 42, just the rom is moved around sections of the code should lift from one to another.
----------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 01:22 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Man:
I finally got my 29C256 to burn, I am using a JET piggy back and a 88 L98 Memcal. Does the 88 165 ECM differ from the 89 165 ECM? The hole in the ECM seems too small to hold the JET adapter and the Memcal. I don't have the instructions for the JET adapter, Do I need to mod anything?
Your right it don't clear.
careful filing on the piggback might work, dang it's sooo close. Mines not in a case, so it might need some trimming, but it really interfers with the Steet support that bolts to the PCB, hmm, maybe slot the PCB, and then the case a little would be best.
Like I said mine's not in a case so the case might also need some work.
ANOTHER good reason to use the 730 ...
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 07:21 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
With my piggyback, it was still a tight fit into the opening for the 7730.
What I did is dismantle the aluminum case (very easy) and then take a Dremel to widen the opening.
Any more I leave the piggyback for using with an emulator, and just use the ZIF'd memcal for the 730/749/165 stuff.
Just wish we had the winbin emulator. I got to play with an early version, and it was so slick you can't believe it.
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 05:37 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BenDoe:
I have tunercats and am currently piecing together parts for my miniram 327 project. I know that 327 are hi revving cars, but i also know that alot of TunerCats' tables(spark, VE) stop around 5600 RPM. How do you change values above that RPM? I know Traxion has done this, he takes his up to 6500.
I'd seriously suggest you reconsider your intake selection.
If you want sleeper and rpm, how about TPI and the larger runners etc, on a 302?.
No reply needed just thinking out loud.
The ecm will continue to use the last entries, trouble can be the hardware you select. If you ecm is trying to maintain a 12.5 AFR, and you injectors aren't sized right, you will have problems, while most people half ignore the 85% DC rule when you get to high rpm you also need to maintain a min OFF time for the injector to fully relax. Or you have have the injector hanging 1/2 open/closed. Depending on what you want to do, you might also have to run Peak and Hold injectors, and that will toss ya into the aftermarket stuff.
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 07:38 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BenDoe:
So are you saying that a miniram would be too big for a 327? I'm not afraid to run aftermaket injectors, as long as they don't cost too much $$. I was planning on keeping the 48 mm throttle body, porting aluminum l98 heads, and using a 212/218 .485/.495 cam with 1.6 roller rockers with around 10.5:1 compression. Alot of people on this board said that a miniram 327 would be a match made in heaven...
"while most people half ignore the 85% DC rule"
what is the 85%DC rule.
The 85% Duty Cycle rule is not to have an injector on more then 85% of the time. The Injector needs time to fully turn off. You can run run an injector 100% of the time, but there is always the problem of every once in a while as it makes that transistion that the injector hangs 1/2 open 1/2 closed, you can hear it happen on an ecm bench. If you read thru the *Final Answers* I talk in some lenght about injector sizing.
You haven't heard me call a miniram 327 a match made in heaven. If you look at that manifold and then at a 86-87 Buick GN manifold you'll see alot in common, and the GN is designed to run with a turbo, in that application the turbo tries to help fill the cylinders evenly, and overcome some issues. But, even it leaves the rear two cylinders lean.
Short runner, small plenum manifolds are asking for problems.
A brief look in the history pages shows the best manifold for a SBC for years was the Cross Ram. Long runner huge volume plenum, to do the oposite, hmm, I dunno.
I'd also consider my GN rather well tuned, and shift it at 5,000 RPM with the same runner configuration as what your looking at.
Now a turbo 302, with a miniram, would be real interesting. But that is getting to the old Indy car formula of years ago.
Hmm, how about a turbo 302, minram, with a 8051 pcm. While the Optispark ain't my favoite there is a retrofit for doing a coil near plug.
With the 8051 you get individual cylinder corrections.
Guess I got to rambling
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-06-2001, 07:15 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Look at running the ARAP.BIN (89 MAF). All you have to do is disable the 9th Injector.
I don't know what the actual Memcal Part Number for the ARAP Bin is, but someone recently got one and maybe they can share it with you.
Alternatively, do a "search" on the DIY PROM Board for "ARAP" and you should be able for to find the post (plus a lot of other info on the ARAP BIN) which you will find useful.
The actual part no for the ARAP was 16134193, but it's been superceeded, I know of at least 3 updates to it. Depending on your parts guys thou, this might be the simpliest answer, since all he has to do is follow the look up sheet.
You actually want the latest part number per your application in case there were any netres or ESC updates.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2001, 05:35 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I happend to run across http://www.gmtips.com/3rd-degree/dox/tips/ecm/prom.htm , and it turns out that I have one of those cips. I have a question, does it effect the PROM ONLY, or does it effect the smaller limp-home and other chip as well. I was planning on using the Cal-Pak for my chip burning.
John
Have you begun to even look at the various parts of your ecm?.
If you have, then you would notice that it uses a memcal just like the photo in that URL (blue cover removed).
On you car all of the various calibration pieces are on the memcal, ie, eprom, netres, K/S filter.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 12:38 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron91RS:
I've been studying the lo3 and lo5 fuel tables since I am new to this and trying to learn. How come in general as the RPM's increase and the MAP number increases the fuel increase except in the last column. Map=100. This would be WOT right? Wouldn't higher RPM's need more fuel? Instead it goes leaner? I'm sure theres a logical explination, I just want to know it.
Also how does the ECM decide which table to use. Say MAP=45. The tables are only 40 and 50. Does it average the fuel values in both or does it round up to 50? Same with RPM's?
It's because of restrictions. In oem form the engine will only need so much fuel, because there are so many limits to it making any serious HP. Lots of totally stock cars barely get over 90 K/Pa, so there is no use adding fuel above that.
The oem injectors in general are way oversized, so that the corrections that the ecm makes are rather large.
With properly sized injectors, you'll never see any 100 values in the VE table. Generally 88-93 is all you want there. Also, you have to leave a little some in there so when the ecm does the baro correction, there is still some head room injector wise.
then also, GM doesn't want you over spinning your engine so they start limiting the timing and fuel so that you don't make enough power to hurt the engine.
then we can toss in the CAFE and EPA stuff for a whole new set of issues
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-05-2001, 07:36 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DM91RS:
How does the 2nd fuel table (vol eff. adder) fit into the equation?
Which ecm?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-05-2001, 12:33 PM #5
DM91RS
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,585
Car: 91 RS
Engine: 305
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
iTrader: (0)
Sorry, little too early! 1991 TBI 8746
-----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 07:46 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
what does it do. why is my stock l03 set at 20. what does that mean/ have relation to?
thanks.
Just think of it as your initial timing. It's so an editor can display the tables in an easy to read form for the humans.
Im my opiniom it's best to have it set at the same as you inital timing.
Is that *20* a hex or binary number?.
If its hex out of the bin file then your really looking at about 6d.
Value= Entry * 90/256
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-04-2001, 12:30 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
the 20 is from my constants menu in tunercat.
my initial spark advance is set at 0 as stock. so should i have the bais also set at 0, because its not as stock.
let me see if i understand right, which i dont think i do. that number is for the editor display only and wont effect how the engine runs?
Timing is calulated using a bunch of parameters.
From the load table, coolant temp., if ESC is active, etc. One of those items being bias. In order for the commanded timing to be shown correctly (like on a scan tool), the ecm needs to know what the intial timing is, or in this case the spark bias.
Take and change the value in your editor.
Compare that file to one you changed, you'll find the checksum, has been changed, and one other value. Say you changed the timing 10 degrees, that means your Hex value should have changed about 30. Then you can figure out if the number displayed is decimal or a hex value.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 09:47 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 88 GTA:
OK, I have my fuel curve pretty much nailed down now - the BLM is between 132 and 124 everywhere, except for at idle. No matter what I do the BLM at idle is always 150+, usually 160. Does the ECM idle the car lean on purpose to save gas, or am I really running that lean? Any help would be appreciated.
BTW, I'm running the $6E code.
Might try adding some injector timing correction vs Battery Voltage. Try going up 5-7 hex values at and around 14.2v and lower.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 10:13 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by sbrice18fan:
I was filling out a Jet Chip specification form and they asked for the computer service# and stock chip broadcast code. Are these unique to each computer ? If not does anybody know the numbers that I need ? I have a 1990 Camaro RS 305 TBI. Thanks for the help.
Save your money, towards getting your own equipment for doing your own.
If you must throw your money away, just pull down your ecm, and look at it, there should be a paper label on it with the ecm number, and a 4 letter alpha code telling you the the BCC.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 01:18 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by boogada186:
I have a built 86 350 TPI w/ a custom TPI Specialties chip. When I had the chip burned I was still running my EGR, but I have since unhooked it. TPIS told me to unhook it b/c of a surging idle problem I had. They said it wouldn't hurt peformance at all and that they would just have to reburn my chip to keep the SES light from coming on. Well after I unhooked the EGR the car ran great and I got NO SES light. Could this be hurting performance at all??? Sometimes if I am on the highway for a long time w/ the a/c on I do get a code 32 but the engine temp is also high. Please give any input. Thanks
Without knowing what they have written in their chip, it's anyones guess what you have.
That's the trouble with buying things that you can't look at.
At a min. it sounds like their EGR part of their calibration was wrong, makes me wonder if anything is right.
When you buy a chip from someone, all you get are guestions.
That's why this board is here, for folks to design their own calibrations. So they know it's right, or how to make it right.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 10:29 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
So there is no VE table so to speak? I thought there was becuase I read where you can disable the MAF and run the car on pure SD if you want. It seems that the LT1 ODB1 systems with a MAP and MAF are much easier to tune than the 730's we play with. If someone came out with a better MAF system for my car I'd be first in line to switch. The MAF is a great thing IMO. There was a company working on using an aftermarket Ford MAF with a translator to use on 85-89 Corvettes. It must have fell by the wayside.
Jason
Jason
Yes you can, run a 95 LT1 in SD mode.
MAFs will always have there own set of issues, if you search thru the final answers the answer is in there.
There is a program afoot for retrofitting a 2000 LS1 or LT1 MAF to the earlier FBod 165 cars.
The 8051 (flash) pcm is fun to work with but no different then a 730 with a EEPROM in it.
R+R a EEPROM, or R+R the programming cables, it's about the same.
The actual tuning is the same. Measure performance, make change measure performance, note difference or tend and continue.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 01:55 PM
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 04:03 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Hope your feeing better Grump. I'd be the first in line to use and or test an LS1 MAF in my car. Please keep us posted on the results of this.
Jason
Been feeling fine, trouble with that is that last few biopsies, was feeling great but still was in rejection.
Anyway, I've sent a MAF to the Eng.Co., and have a LT1 MAF with both size housing packaged to go to one player, for testing. Life would be so much easier with an unlimited budget.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
ChrisB is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-12-2001, 08:50 AM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisB:
In the EE pcm there are 3 VE tables - a 0-340 (cranking shot), 400 to 2000 VE and 2000 to 7000 VE. I went ahead and uploaded a dump out of a stock 95 file
http://shared.slowcar.net/0to340VE.txt
http://shared.slowcar.net/400to2000VE.txt
http://shared.slowcar.net/2000to7000VE.txt
this car is a MAF vehicle, but can be run in speed denisty also.
Chris Bennight
[This message has been edited by ChrisB (edited August 11, 2001).]
The crank table looks a little backwards to me.
usually higher TPSs are for a clear flood mode, meaning leaner not richer.
Course still working on first cup of coffee.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-12-2001, 08:58 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
I have a 2.77 POSI rear in my '89, one of the things I have wondered about is if there is any difference in the bins depending on what gears you have...
YES.
The lower the rear gearing (numerically) the slower the advance rate is.
Also, converter stall speed plays heavily into this.
There can be dramatic differences, especially, or should I say just, below the stall speed of the converter (actually flash speed).
Also, too tight of converter can lead to detonation after a shift, since the engine is slow to regain rpm, if too tight.
On my 355, 3200 stall, 3.42 F Bod I was running -4d timing in several places below the stall speed of the converter, in part to kill some of the low speed torque so as not to blow the tires off too bad.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-12-2001, 06:37 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
How different would tuning chips for vehicles other than thirdgen f-bodies be? Would I need completely different equipment? I was thinking me and my buddies could put in together for one setup and just roll them out for everyone. It would sure cut down on costs for equipment. Is this tangible?
If you mean Ford, Mopar, Toyota, then the equipment is different.
If you mean run a Ford off of a GM ECM, it's been done, the ecm doesn't know what brand car it's attached to, so long as the hardware lines up.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 10:58 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ragin'87:
So far, what I can tell I need to get started in the PROM burning realm are two things.
a pocket programmer
some chips
and a bin editor.
I believe I have a 746 ECM(92 L03). What editor is recommended for a beginnner? Also, do I need a scanner, or do the editors have a scan mode? I've read the archives, and all that, I'm just trying to make sure I'm reading it all right. Don't want to jump in head first and discover the pool's emtpy ya know? Thanks.
Some prom holders are neat to have, if you break one, the eprom won't seat right.
need an eraser for eproms.
I use GMERpro when using a laptops since it's DOS based. Then Tunercat on the PC.
If you change to the 747 turbolink for $150 is the cheapest laptop based scanner, you'll have to check to see if Ken has updated it for other other ecms like the 746.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-12-2001, 09:03 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ragin'87:
any downfalls to switching to the 747?
You lose the IAT (Intake air temperature) sensor. About the only time you'd notice is if you park in a heated garage, and pull out into freezing weather. Till you acclerate briskly the engine would still think it's in the warm garage. Once it does a barometric pressure recalculation, it's fine.
You laptop, might be too fast.
I have a cheapie that I bought on ebay for using in the car. Also, alot less worried about it being ripped off.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-12-2001, 09:13 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ragin'87:
so the only thing I loose with the 747 is the IAC(that's the one inside the air cleaner right?) But since the computer won't be looking for it, it shouldn't matter right? For starters, can I just put the chip from my Camaro into a 747? or should I practice on the 746 first? Thanks for all the help.
Chips between the 747 and 746 are not interchangeable. You have to use the corresponding chip with the corresponding ecm.
The advantage in all this is the 747 is totally hac'd. Aslo, it's been used by literary 100's of people. Over at GMECM there are some interesting patches for it.
You can even make it ROMless, and get nuts if you want with doing your own code for it.
IAC= Idle Air Control,
IAT= Intake Air Temp.
Yes, just leave it plugged in, the ecm like you surmised will ignore it
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 01:24 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CamaroX84:
I was wondering, if through PROM burning, I could calibrate the speedometer to compensate for different tire sizes/rear end gears. It is an electric speedometer, not cable driven. Thanks.
Depending on what your working on, you might have a DRAC module. Hunting thru the GMECM archives will give you all the info there is about them.
----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2001, 10:40 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AquaMetallic94LT1:
For those of you that have tuned their 94 or 95 LT1 using a wide band O2 sensor, how much difference have you found between the measured AFR and the value that you program into the ECM at WOT ? I understand the interaction between the % Change AFR vs Coolant and % Change AFR vs RPM table values. I 'd like to know how close the programmed value is to the measured value.
Thanks............
I haven't had my WB on a LT1.
But, have hours on it with my GN.
The computed numbers are just that. If you lie in anyway to the ecm, then it's garbage in garbage out, as far as true readings go.
I've heard, that the ecm tends to read a little on the lean side, as a rule, YMMV.
My best combo to date was showing a commanded 11.8 and an actual of 12.25
I don't trust any one element as being correct.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2001, 01:27 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AquaMetallic94LT1:
Thanks Grumpy. That seems to work out to an error of about 3.8% which isn't that bad since the injectors are +/- 2% and I imagine that the MAF is in that range. There's also the accuracy of the measuring device. Did you find the % error to be consistant at all the points you checked on the same car ?
My WB is very fast responding, so I could read the individual swings as the ecm toggles back and forth across stoich., at idle and cruise. About the only really meaningful readings with it are at WOT. I generally run closed loop chips, and haven't needed to play withother areas.
with the limited playing I've done with the 95LT1, I'm impressed. Just took out a few degrees timing out at WOT, and a little fuel, and it's real nice.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2001, 01:37 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by dhirocz:
OK, I got some stuff to start burning my own chips. I decided to install WinBin and play with it a little bit to learn it. Where do I begin? The numbers. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1A,1B,1C...what the hell kind of counting is that? How do I go about defining these varibles and actually knowing what I'm programming with that kind of numerical system? Should I find out how many munbers there are and take it from there?
Also, where will I get more info on the specifics of the definitions it uses? Things like VE lower table and extended spark advance? Things I don't hear of often. Sorry I sound like I'm whining but I'm kinda dissapointed I know this involves alot of time but didn't think actually defining specifics in the program itself would be hard and boy I hope this doesn't get locked. I already read Traxion's article. Somebody please help...thanks!
It will be easier for getting accurate answers if you a little bit more spedific in what you ask. With all the swaps, and cross overs some answers will vary.
There are several lower VE tables, and they
vary.
Some mean throttle closed.
Or for greater resolution at lower rpm, like 200 rpm intervals, whereas higher VE tables use 400 rpm spreads.
Or just the way GM wanted to split up table size.
On extended spark it's similiar to the fuel, in so far as how a particular ecm handles figuring things.
Generally, "we" try to keep the locking and deleting to a min.. If you asking questions about Prom Burning and not to far off subject it ain't a problem.
radio shack used to have a neat little calculator that was handier then using acessories calculator for doing hex conversions.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 01:23 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JoelOl75:
Hello, I'm kinda getting started in all this stuff so bear with me. I was wondering if someone could recommend a bin close for my combo to start off with. I know the ARAP is the 'best' stock type code for the 165 computer, but is there a modded version that will be closer for my combo to start with?
I'm running 388 cubes, 234/234 duration on a 114LSA. My idle (750 desired) vacuum will be in the 10.5 to 11" Hg range. 700R4 trans. with EGR.
If someone is running a combo similar it would be a great help to me if I could start with the closest .bin to start with but I have no idea how the part numbers are refc'd to on diy-efi.
Thanks for any help...
First off, I doubt you'll want to run EGR. The bigger cam, has already added alot of EGR to your engine already.
You want to start with a clean sheet of paper, on where to start. Your engine isn't exactly like there's, and who's to say you won't be building on an error on their part?.
Maybe even a serious error.
Reading thur the archives here will give answers to guestions you haven't even thought of yet.
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-12-2001, 08:46 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodB:
Recently I have spent some time looking at the spark tables of various chips I have.
The main ones I have looked at is ANYJ9304 (Thats the original chip from my IROC), The ARAP chip in its stock form and a Fastchip Stage II.
From what I can see after comparing these three chips is that the sock IROC chip never goes higher than approx 40 degrees in the main spark table, while both the ARAP and the Fastchip goes as high as 47 degrees in some parts of the spark table. (Thats the one I used before I started getting into doing my own).
So, my qustions is, whats the highest you other guys run on a stock L98?
I have no problems with pinging even with the ARAP chip, I get a few knock counts when I crank it, but after that I don't get any even if I do a WOT run down the track....
I know there is a difference between the way the octane ratings are calculated in US/Europe, anyway I run 98 octane gas.
I am going down to the track later today if it doesn't start to rain, and will bring the laptop and get some logfiles.
First time I am going to dive deeper into this interesting subject, so any suggestions and/or comments are more than welcome!!!
The BLM/INT numbers are very close to 128/128 at part throttle, but a little lean in idle.
The trick is running the min amount of timing (consistant with best HP).
With the AL Vette heads I made best power with 28d of total timing. Lots of guys start with so much timing that they are past best power before they even start. Then try and make up for it with too much fuel.
In cruise you want a fair amount of timing, and all the more so if running a lean cruise mode.
As you approach 42d you also get VERY prone to cross firing. There is 45d between posts on the distributor, that is a mechanical limit. Depending on your initial timing you can get into the high 40s but I'd strongly suggest looking for power in the 34d (total @ WOT) and less range.
Also, if running a cold thermostat, you can use less timing in cruise mode.
Also, not all detonation is detectable by the stock Knock Sensor, and some is inaudible. If you plugs have a gray hue to them your border line detonation, or into trace detonation. Little specks and your seriously into it.
If I'm not mistaken there is a limit to calc spark advance in your bin anyway, so anything more then 42d (maybe it's 45) is just ignored anyway.
With DIS, and an extreammely lean cruise mode I've gone to 56d timing and 17:1 AFr and there is just nothing to be found there. A car will take X amount of HP to go any specific distance, so there is a point of diminishing returns.
------------------------------------
Old 08-13-2001, 02:53 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 88 GTA:
Over the past week or so my car has developed a "buck" in it. Every once in a while it just jerks for no reason. I noticed that whenever it does it my tach jumps up a few hundred RPM. So last night I took a long drive with Craig's software and found out that the RPM signal is jumping all over the place. The whole drive was below 2500 RPM - yet a good portion of the tach signal was over 4000 RPM, even over 6000 RPM a few times.
Does anyone have any idea what could be causing this? I don't really think it's PROM related - but I've been messing with it so much lately maybe I screwed something up by accident.
Sounds like RFI from a bad plug wire, or something of that nature.
Bruce
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2001, 09:45 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott 88 GTA:
Thanks Bruce, I think you hit the nail on the head. I measured the resistance of the #1 and #3 wires tonight, which have the most clearance around my headers, and they were both over 12k ohms.
Now where's my Summit catalog.....
I'm really happy with some Magnecors I've been running (10mm).
Crane, and MSD iin that order as alternatives in my book.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2001, 09:56 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by P J Moran:
FYI, I have soldered a machined socket onto my MemCal in place of the original EPROM. It accepts chips with a moderate press fit. To swap out chips, I pull the whole MemCal, remove the lid (or hat or cover or whatever), then swap out the chips, replace the lid, and then reinstall the MemCal.
Having done this about three dozen times, now, I am beginning to worry about wear and tear on the pins in the ECM and the sockets on the MemCal.
Should I leave the MemCal installed (without it's lid) and just remove the chip from it from now on? What's the most common "system" used for swapping chips? I don't think a ZIF socket will fit under the MemCal's lid, will it?
I got about 400 chip changes with a 747, before the socket gave out.
I've never found a decent ZIF to fit under any lid. There are some that use a slide bar, instead of a lift bar, but so far they all have seemed too cheap to even use.
Might just build a ZIF memcal for when experimenting, and then use the one you already have when doing long term testing with a chip.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2001, 10:09 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
I'd start with the stock AUJN main spark and PE mode spark advance tables.
If you have the idle and cruise stuff right, then I'd start with taking 5d off of a AUJN or some similiar bin, and work up from there.
There is an article called tuning.doc at DIY_EFI, where I tried explaining where to start and where to go.
Remember, as little as timing as consistant with best performance, not the max possible. Get to best performance and drop 2d for street use. If you wind up with over 32d timing you've probably missed something (assuming 64cc heads, mild cam), AL heads over 30 and you've missed something.
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 07:36 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by smokin87iroc:
do i really need an eraser? i thought i remembered someone saying that you can do some trick to make it think its cleared and program over it.
someone please clarify this for me
thanks a bunch
Andrew
While the FBods used the 165 till 89 they used several different Prom Masks, generally the later the better so in your case you want a TDF for a 6E, rather then the 87 MY version. But there are some changes you need to make. This has been covered many times, and a search and reading old post will fill in the blanks, and add considerably to what you need to know.
same with using the eeproms. All the experinces are here for asking (searching).
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 02:08 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Been alot of talk about MAT sensors recently. I have mine relocated in the airbox. Since I run the Miniram currently I don't have much choice. Now that I made the commitment to try my old ported Super Ram on my 396 mighty mouse, Should I put the MAT back in the plenum or leave it in the air box?
Jason BTW, I run the 7730 ECM
First off, I agree 100% with what Glenn said.
To just continue a little.
You can use GM engineering to help you, or rewrite what they have done. When you sit down, and really study what they've done, it usually hard to outdo them.
The MAT corrections, seem to be more of a fudge factor then an specific correction.
From calibration to calibration, it varies in how they use it so that hints very strongly that it's a fudge item.
In some recent testing I've done I've seen where I can diddle the MAT with timing changes that are so slight that the Coolant temp doesn't change, but the MAT does, and in my case MPG increased. Everything else stayed the same, O2 voltage etc., and yet with no table corrections based on MAT the engine ran better. It takes miles for temps to stabilze when playing with 2d timing changes at cruise. You sometimes have to get really obtuse to get to the bottom of what's really going on.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 02:16 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
With the stock ECMs, no. The stock ECMs do not have the necessary "drivers" on the ECM to allow you to operate as SFI.
However, Bruce is looking at the 8051 PCM from later year 4th Gen F-bodies (I can't remember the exact year ... 1994 I believe with possibly 1993 and/or 1995) and modifying them to be used on 3rd Gens. SFI would be a part of the conversion. You would have to talk to Bruce more about this (8051 PCMs) about the current status and major obstacles.
All the default modes of the 851 go to a batch fire strategy, from what I've been able to tell. The ecm does have to have a high, and low resolution timing input. The simple answer is making a distributor that uses a Optispark timing wheel and sensor.
IMO, the only real advantage other then when running huge injectors is for the DIS or CNP coils (Coil near Plug). But, FAST has just released the eDIST which allows for CNP conversions. Using a MSD Distributor so that you can get a cam synch signal, you can convert to something that is really state of the art downside is it gets expensive, you need 8 of the LS1 coils, plus the eDIST.
The LS1 coils are really amaziing. I've been playing with one, and have a eDIST and it looks really neat on the inside, just need to find 5 more coils, and plug wires. They use a Bosch connector instead of GM for some reason.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 02:21 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Team FTS:
Is it possible through prom tuning to make the TPI system act as a sequential system versus the batch fire system that it is I know changing to DFI will accomplish this but i would like to know if it is possible through prom tuning first. thanks
Forgot to mention:
That at over about 2,500 RPM, there is no differnce SEFI to batch, and at WOT the that number drops to much lower.
ie the intake valve is only open 25% of the time so the second the injector PW is over 26%, the difference between the two stops.
Also, lots of GN switch to Batch from SEFI for racing. Just disabling the can sensor input to the ecm defaults to batch fire.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2001, 10:35 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Q: Will invoking highway mode enable me to save enough money on gas to pay for the prom burning equipment?
Q: Will invoking highway mode run my engine lean enough to cause a problem? Is it safe? Will I shorten my engine life?
Depends on your current combination. You might get better mileage, but like anything else, you *might* get in there and worsen things.
Again, you can goof things up and have problems.
If you constantly heavy into the throttle 16 MPG might be the best you'll get.
Would be nice to promise better, but that would be lieing.
Good chance that done right, you'd get better mileage. Just about guaranteed to learn something thou, and that is what makes life interesting.
---------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2001, 12:27 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by dgreene:
I have ordered a complete chip burning setup from BM Computer Source for my '87 GN. I have also bought a copy of tunercat and the tdf file I need to read and modify my prom on my '87 Formula 350. OK, here's the question: What kind of blanks do I need to have as spares and swapouts?
Someone had said a 27C128. I have two that are labeled - AM27C128
-150DC
9603APA
12.75V PGM
Will that work?
The 27128s are fine and wiil work on the TPI. THe GN uses the 2732 series of proms.
The 87 uses a 165 ecm which uses a memcal that you'll need to modify, the GN uses the 148 ecm and uses prom holders.
At the Gnttype site they show the prom holders, and how to load and unload them.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 04:14 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tad:
I had an Idea I don't if it would be pooiable. But I was wondering if you could replace the e-prom with a prom that could be flash from a laptop. Like when you flash your bios on your computer. because all you are doing is replacing the the old bin file with a new bin file. Just an Idea I had.
Are you talking for real time changes?.
Then the answer is no. You have to keep things in synch with the program running. Or the ecm crashes.
To reflash one means divorcing all the pins from the ecm during the reflash, on the older ones, how they handle this on the new ones I don't know. But, even withthem you have to kill the engine.
The syty bullentin board had a bunch of posts about an emulator that they had working well with their 27128 chipped ecms.
Too often with easy reprogramming you can get caught in the moment and fly right by optimum best. Somestimes the old fashioned slow ways have their place, in that since you have to spend a moment to reprogram a chip, you just might make it a habit to take notes about what your doing.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2001, 02:17 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
Hey guys, guess my first question is more general but, how does the 6AL compair to the stock HEI? I guess you have to remove the HEI module to make it work?
Also with burning proms, the prom IS still in full controll of the timing curve even with a 6al correct? I dont want to ever loose precise controll of th timing curve
Thanks
Nope, just use the original point trigger lead to trigger the MSD.
So yes, the ecm still is in charge of the timing.
All your CDIs just give you a faster raise time on the coil, and the spark occurs with less ringing of the coil. On SOME engines can be good, on some won't matter. I've never had any good luck with MSD, but have with Crane. FWIW
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 01:55 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by z28dan:
Anyway..After reading Bruce's spark plug reading article, which cylinders tend to run more lean the the others? Or is it different or every motor? I was wondering if the TPI (fuel delivery) would cause the same cylinders on every motor to run lean.
Sorry if this is not a PROM related question.
Understanding where your going, and where you have been calibration wise is what prom burning is all about, we need questions, and answers on issues like this, IMO.
We also need folks to use the search tools, and just read thru some of the old postings to stir their imaginations, about what is going on.
Now to answer your question, there are a number of variables.
Changes in Pre Trottle Body ducting can make for fueling differences, as well as operating temp, water pump flow, and even coolant type.
With higher operating temps., the combustion chambers have less variance in operating temp., when you run say a 140d Thermostat the rear cylinders will always look a touch leaner, add a maifold like the miniram, and the situation gets ugly fast.
If you were to look at the calibration for a 95 LT1 you can see the cylinder corrections for a stock manifold are very slight.
while folks harp about the runner lengths on the TPI for torque, I'm beginning to think they are for isolating each cylinder from each other to have each cylinder working in unison with the rest.
I also think the deal with roller cams is about how accurately cams can actually be ground repeatably. I know folks talk about accleration rates, less friction etc., but let the truth be know a 7/8 flat tappet can generate a faster valve accleration rate then any roller lifter that you could fit in the same room.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2001, 02:13 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by z28dan:
I may not know what I am saying..but to get a faster valve accelaration you need a steeper pitch cam lobe, right?? I always thought that due to the nature of the flat tappet you can't run the real steep lobe becuase of binding that occurs when the edge of the tappet digs into the lobe. Is the true?
It's easy to kick a valve open so fast that it won't follow the actual cam profile, and exceed the ground in lift spec of the cam..
Using larger OD lifters is "a good thing".
It hard to picture correctly, but a flat tappet cam is a very good design, the roller lifters also add a ton of weight to the valvetrain, and really increases the springs work load. At low rpm they can generate a slight HP gain, from reduced friction. Which is good for MPg, the CAFE numbers are
what forced their use.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2001, 09:46 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Jza:
I think that's what gives them the right to call it "Tuned Port"... Wasn't that the reasoning behind the setup?
There are numerous rumors to way they did what they did.
I've heard several, from rather good sources, that cosmetics was the tie breaker. Considering it was released in late 84 there was a high Wow factor at the time.
---------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-17-2001, 07:26 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by steve8586iroc:
i saw somewhere this week, I think on speedvision, where either Volkswagon or Ford of Europe is useing the spark plugs to detect knock. They mentioned that due to the change in ionozation of the combustion process that happens when knock occurs that they were able to detect knock faster therefore able to adjust the timing faster to stop it from reoccuring. Jacob electronics uses a simular method to adjust the output of the coil to coinside with the need according to load. It sure would be nice to incorparate some of these features into our ecms to run as close to the edge as posible without fear of destroying our engines.
Saab has been using a n ion detection system fir years. It's really tricky.
They apply 80v to the plug after it fires, and then read the resistance across it, and the resistance changes you can see a pattern. Really is slick.
I'm involved in trying to genrate a DIY version, that is alot simplier.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-17-2001, 09:53 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
The ARAP trans constraints and varaibles are very different then stock 89 code. I was woudering which bin is easier on the trans and far a heat build-up? I like the way the ARAP varaibles feel but don't want to bake the trans on every day driving. I haven't mastered the TCC varaibles yet, partly because I don't understand them fully. I am running a trans cooler.
The only good cure for the 700R is using the one with the secondary valve body.
What kills trannies is heat, loose converters, soft oem shifting, and the lousy TCC materials are the main causes for 700R failures.
The cooler circuit is only applied when the TCC is applied.
The only way I got one to live, was with a non lock up converter, and the necessary changes for that.
The oem converters aren't meant to deal with WOT shifting, or engine loads.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-17-2001, 09:53 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
The ARAP trans constraints and varaibles are very different then stock 89 code. I was woudering which bin is easier on the trans and far a heat build-up? I like the way the ARAP varaibles feel but don't want to bake the trans on every day driving. I haven't mastered the TCC varaibles yet, partly because I don't understand them fully. I am running a trans cooler.
The only good cure for the 700R is using the one with the secondary valve body.
What kills trannies is heat, loose converters, soft oem shifting, and the lousy TCC materials are the main causes for 700R failures.
The cooler circuit is only applied when the TCC is applied.
The only way I got one to live, was with a non lock up converter, and the necessary changes for that.
The oem converters aren't meant to deal with WOT shifting, or engine loads.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2001, 10:04 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by bub:
well these are the #s i got off of my computer on the white sticker. i could not find any other codes or #s
service# 1227302
here are some others on the sticker
863041
160533041
m612027896
HNR
these were the only #S i could find can someone tell me what kind of computer i have?
i need to know so i can start getting some stuff to do my own proms. or if there isnt anything for me then i dont need to keep wasting my time thanks for any info
bruno
You have an ecm for a 88, FBod with a 2.8 auto.
To date I don't know of anyone that has a hac for that. So at this stage investigating installing a 1227730, and working with a 8D mask number bin seems like your only option.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-11-2001, 04:23 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
IAT MATs - Final Answer
In review, I have a GN with the 148 ecm.
I relocated the ATS (Air temp sensor) to the upper plenum, but it is not thermally isolated from the manifold, so it's temp is reflective of both engine and air temp.. The amazing part, was how much I could change the timing without changing the coolant temp., yet being able to change may MAT temp.
In the past few days I was able to do some serious highway mode testing. ie logged 1,000 miles of interstate driving, in two long sessions.
The 10d change in temp vs 2d timing at **LOW** load conditions is very real. The trick is channging the timing to get lower MAT temps..
At one point I was making 4d timing changes with no change in TPS, but yet dropping MAT, and Injector Pulse Widths.
Heat soak from Freeway and General driving are two very different items. Under a given set of circumstances, MAT from around town would get to about 110d, and from a freeway blast be 130d.
Changing brands of fuel could generate a 2d timing change for best MPG. Changing timing takes about 10 mins for the MAT to stabilize from the new operating temps..
Yes, While you need to add timing for low load hot conditions, you need to take some timing out for high MAT high load conditions.
Getting the timing just right netted a little over 26 MPG at 75-80 MPH. Was running a PW of 2.8 to 3.2 and more at 2.8 then 3.2. I run highway mode AFR, none feedbeack so that was a given. Also, late MAF that is temp compensated.
In one past calibration, I was taking .75d timing out per 10dF in the WOT area, with the *base* setting starting at 32dF.
Youe mileage will vary, and the above numbers are what were/are working for me.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 02:24 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Good information Bruce. I am noticing that the MAT sensor seems to handled very differently from ECM to ECM.
On my SD L98, I noticed that the MAT has a very real effect on the fuel mixture (injector pulse widths) and the operation of the EGR. But, I have never noticed any effect on my Spark Advance. Other than the typical tables (Spark Advance, Coolant, PE and Highway Mode), the only other thing that affects the Spark Advance on the 7730 appears to be that horrible "Octane Retard" routine, which will retard the spark for almost the entire time the engine is running, until your restart the engine and reset it.
However, I WISH that I did have some control of the Spark Advance based on MAT, especially for WOT. I am noticing that with the recent spell of hot weather where I live, that I had to back off my spark advance by a couple of degrees or I would encounter audible ping. I think that adding a "routine" to the source code to adjust the spark advance for WOT based on MAT readings would allow me to further tune my eprom so I could use the same settings all year round. Instead of my current method of having to re-program the eprom for "winter" and "summer" so I could have my spark advance optimized for WOT.
That was why I was specific about which ecm.
What is funny is that in the 148 there is a MAT bias and timing table, that are 0'd out, and in the N/A 148 applications they use it.
thou both use the MAT in the air calcs...
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2001, 07:43 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobalos:
Light load vs heavy load, was what I looking at, not just heat soaking the engine. Heat soak from staging is just a matter of fans, and under hood venting.
When you post as you did you make it hard to reply too.
Yes, I was able to change the engine effeciency enough to affect a change in MAT without a coolant change.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2001, 11:08 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
I was more fascinated by the way the 148 operates based on the IAT/MAT compared to the 7730. It REALLY makes me want to "dive into" other hacs/disassemblies and see how they handle certain driving conditions based on certain sensor readings.
For 165 guys, they may want to see if they could combine the way the MAT works on both the 7730 and 148 to provide additional "correction". However the $6E is so damn tight, it would be like trying to have Fi-Fi Boom-Boom Toulouse trying to wear a training bra. I wonder if it possible to take some of the routines out of the ROM such as you are doing with the 148 and use 256s (for the additional 16K) on 165s?
Edit out the self diagnostics, and there is tons of room.
Then use a **B** chip with the self diagnostics if you have a problem.
See, simple ....
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2001, 09:23 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mult68:
A bought a used Speed Density ECM from a 91 Transam (305 TPI). To my surprise it came with a JET Memcal adapter and chip. I will be using this on a 383 Superram. I believe there are 3 chips...one is the PROM, the others are limp home chips and ESC Filter. My question....are the limp home chip and ESC filter the same for any engine?
If you mean between the 305 and 350, NO.
Use the latest memcal to base your work on. They make slight changes from time to time, and it works out best starting with a given rather then a maybe.
If your working on a SD 350 an AUJP is what you want to start with.
---------------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-19-2001, 11:15 AM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
IAT/MAT *Humidity* Final Answer
Finally caught up enough to expound on something.
Let me state right now, I think all hig perforance tuning should include IAT/MAT, Baro (full time), and a compenstation for Humidity. I've been ridiculed as being just too anal about things, by a number of people. So I just grin when folks start to agree with me.
Continuing:
On Speedvision, they had a Pro Comp Tuner talking about tuning. He was going on how even at some tracks now they include baro (height above sea level), and temp. on the timing slips.
Then went on to say even MORE IMPORTANT was compensating for HUMIDITY.
I rest my case.
One NEAT THING about hot wire MAFs is that in part they do compensate for that!!!!.
Any bets on way GM went back to adding them?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2001, 01:53 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Adding a "correction" table for humidity would be interesting. Having the ECM automatically compensate would be even more interesting.
There is a bar correction table in the SD 7730 and I've been contemplating trying some "tests" to see what happens. Might be some possibilities there.
Another couple of corrections I think would be interesting would be for "gear selection" and "vehicle speed". I've noticed on my SD car that the lower gears tends to run leaner (higher BLMs) at a given RPM/Load than in 4th. It strikes me that a little extra fuel correction if in one is in 1st or 2nd may be useful.
Also, for higher speeds, I have found that on a high speed passing situation on 3rd, I can use a slightly higher spark advance than at slower speeds in lower gears. The dynamics of an operating engine in a moving car in real world driving conditions adds additional complexities (and opportunities) from a stationary engine on a dyno. I think there lots of little "tweaks" that can be made to Source Code to aid in tuning.
Well,
if you want to get into load compensations, it's more about timing then fuel.
In the lower gears there is greater gear multiplications so the engine is actually seeing a lower load. Also, the conbustion chambers are cooler, so less chance of detonation as you first acclerate.
On some calibratons they use a Burst Knock Retard to min the effects of this.
I'm beginning to wonder about fuel off of MAF, and Timing off of MAP.
Then MAT Fuel / Timing corrections
BARO timing.
then depending on the Water Injection placement the IAT could max it's effects
Gads this sounds good.
Hmm come to think of it I better sleep on it ..
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2001, 08:57 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by hectorsn:
Let me start off by saying I have no idea of what is involved in what you guys are talking about. I can't even pronounce dissasssssemble? That said, starting at $8988 there is nothing to $3000 on a $8D. Is that enough room to add a table and code for spark vs MAT? I know there is all kinds of stuff that has to be done and I assume it's very difficult as I hear of everyone talking about it but no one actually accomplishing it. I understand that a basic editor for a given mask won't cover this sort of addition so is this the reason it's unpopular? Another thing, the source code you speak of, is that in the prom or in the rom? Does a 730 even have a rom and if so what for? As far as humidity goes, what is used to determine it? I don't know but it seems to me that a baro and an IAT sensor isn't going to be enough but since I don't know how humidity is calculated..... I do know that where I live we always have humidity with the lowest humidity during the bright day, unless fo course it's raining. Things like these weather variables won't affect my tune too much as weather is the same for about 95% of the year: hot and humid. But it would be nice to further my edumacation with this stuff in search of the perfect tune.
Reading code takes time.
Understanding it takes more time.
Modifying it, well, that all's together another issue.
There are folks that can do all this, and it just seems most would rather not share the info.. Some thou will help with answers, but now that seems to be fading. While it's gotten to editors being low priced, the drive for other info., seems to have slowed as in almost come to a stand still.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2001, 09:07 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC-Z_85:
Yo guys,
Ok, finally, the 85 ecm is come'n out. With a Pocket programmer will it be possible to pull the bin from it, take the tables etc and burn it to a 165 prom?
If you going to a 165, then why not just use the most current calibration?.
Are you going to the 6E code?.
That would be the last generation of calibrations for that ecm.
You would have to get an editor for the old ecm to get the tables, and then another editor to write them into the new ecm.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-18-2001, 01:24 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by -=Jeff=-:
What would cause this to happen? If I was too lean? from what I can understand the O2, coolant temp and internal timers all need to hit a certain point before you go to closed loop. but when in closed loop I would guess that the only thing that could cause the ECM to go Back to open loop would be a Lean condition. correct?
This is on my 89 Vette.. 165 ECM Miniram'ed motor. the odd thing about it is that the BLMs and INT seem to be right at 128 +/-3
O2 volts show as .45 which leads me to believe I am running lean.
I have a heated O2 sensor (which may need replacing since the car was running real rich) and the O2 sensor is located at the end of the long tube header in the collector..
I am also using 24# SVO injectors but have the constant set for #26 (which I have heard should be correct for those)
Would bumping the FP help? or should I back down the Injector constant to 25# or am I even looking in the right spot?
Thanks
How do you know it's open loop, vs fail soft mode?.
Coolant temp., being too low will do it.
What are the O2 cross counts. There is a gray area from code 13 to poor working O2
.45 is the ecm ref voltage to the O2. Almost sounds like an open wire to O2 if not might try a good O2 sensor (AC)
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2001, 09:19 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by -=Jeff=-:
as far as I can tell by using my Ease software. it has a parameter that states Open or Closed loop. What is Fail Soft Mode? How can I detect that?
WHat are O2 Cross counts? mine has O2 trasitions.. at one point it is 106 another time is 228
If you would like to email me at jdebuhr@home.com I can reply back with an excel spread sheet from my latest scan.
I am slowly learning this stuff and this board is very helpful.
Fail Soft is when the ecm is using a default value for a failed sensor, what is commonly called Limp Home, which it isn't.
You need to go thru you logging and see what's acting up. I don't use excel, not even installed, those spread sheets give me headaches, seriously.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-17-2001, 08:21 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Vats is in the chip, and disables the injectors from pulsing.
There are other strategies the GM used such as Pass Key, etc, that disabled the starter.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 06:50 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by slowTA:
I have the PTS set at .54 volts at idle, but at full throttle it reads about 4.3 volts. When I use Craig Moates software the car idles at 10% and full throttle is about 85% throttle. Is this a sign of a bad TPS, I can't find any information about what it should read at full throttle. Also if it is bad, would it cause a bog at tip in? It sounds like a good theory to me!
The first thing to do with check the mechanicals of the situation. Does the gas pedal even open the throttle all the way?.
then, why is the inital adjustment that high?.
Have you set the min idle speed?.
Check the intial timing?.
Generally if all that is correct then you'll have resolved the problem.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2001, 09:59 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
When I start the motor hot, it'll rev up to 2000 and sit there for a couple of seconds. I thought this was the IAC park steps, but adjusting it didn't help. A cold start works fine. Any ideas?
try cleaning out the IAC passage ways. They can carbon up really bad, and screw with the closed, and open IAC counts.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-18-2001, 08:12 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
Went through all that when I tore everything apart. Are the park steps how far the IAC is open when your start the car?
Yes.
But why would it all of a sudden change?.
Still sounds like an IAC related problem.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-20-2001, 10:52 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
I dont know if anybody caught it but I asked this question in an older post, but nobody answered.
For the WOT values in the timing and fuel tables (at 100kpa), would it be better to have linear values contrary to what GM did and have them jump around a lot ?
For example instead of having them 10,13,15, 11,18,12,10 etc have these value gradually increase or decrease in a linear pattern like : 10,11,12,13,14,15,16 etc or 10,10,10,12,12,12,12,14,14,14,14 ?
Am I making any sense here ? lol
It not about what you want, but what the engine wants. Test it and find out.
If no definite improvement, then I'd highly recommend following the stock pattern.
Once you have the cruise and WOT timing right then you can play alot without fear of hurting things in the transistional area.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-21-2001, 07:33 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
Well it's not about that. I already have the cruise and "non WOT" values down to what the engine likes. I guess I was just wondering why GM did that.. instead of steadily increasing/decreasins the values why did they have to go up and down so much.
Short answer is to avoid detonation.
The closer you run to detonation the more the tables will be erratic.
VE changes thru out the rpm load ranges so the timing must also.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
--------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-21-2001, 07:23 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mike89z:
I was just curious about when a motor should receive the max timing under WOT. Any other thoughts about timing are also welcome. I know that every engine is different and I am not looking for exact figures or anything. Just wanted to start a discussion on it.
Somewhere in the nieghborhood of 3K rpm. 2,400 to 3,200 are generally accpeted as where an engine is most deonation prone, and where the K/S are often tuned for.
With automatics converter stall speed will also play into that variable.
You might add a few degrees per thousand rpm over that.
So the short answer is you want max timing at peak HP, and for it to start at peak torque. the biggest factor is going to be the cam and when you start being able to have it artifically boost your VE.
700R4 trannies just really make it hard to get the timing right. With 1st gear being so darned high, and with a loose converter, you just about have to run really retarded timing or you just wind up smoking the tires, which is good for show, but really slow.
Depending on the torque curve of the engine, you also want the recovery rpm after a shift to be low enough so that you don't detonate during the end of a gear change. That's also why Stall Converters can be so much faster. You can have trace detonation at that point, and when in detonation an engine doesn't make as much power. Converter stall and flash speeds can really dicate what the timing will be.
HTH
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-21-2001, 10:27 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mike89z:
I was just curious about when a motor should receive the max timing under WOT. Any other thoughts about timing are also welcome. I know that every engine is different and I am not looking for exact figures or anything. Just wanted to start a discussion on it.
In general, you'll want the timing to be right at max from peak torque to peak HP.
One problem is that engines are mostly likely to detonate in the 2,400-3,200 range so sometimes you have to delay when it kicks in.
Stall speed of the converter can play havic too. The stall speed-flash speed, of the converter with the 700R is a real wierd combo.. You can run alot of timing in first since their is so much gear multiplication. Down side is you roast the tires so bad your actually slowing the car down. Easy to get to the point of making too much HP in first.
On my Cross fired 84, I wound up using very little timing below the stall speed of the converter. But, with junk TAs ran 2.0 60 foot times, and the didn't matter on what surface (well other then wet).
On my GN I run 17d form 2,400 rpm up. On the Bird, a total of 28d starting at 3,200. Yes the FBod had a looser converter.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-21-2001, 10:30 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
From past experience, do you run the SAME amount of timing at WOT?
I am currently, it seems to pull pretty good and at certain rpms it almost "quits", I may need more fuel or some taken away to resolve some of that problem but say i'm running 28.6 degrees of timing the entire time at wot, should there be some sort of curve at all?
Brendan
Plugs showing any signs of detonation.
Sory for the double post, but it took a day for it to show up here, weird.....
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-23-2001, 11:35 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jnjspdshop:
I am have few questions and I was hoping someone could help me out. I am currently running a 406 SB, in my 88 IROC-Z. I have the stock computer with a TPIS PROM and the car runs real fast. I have broken 2 stock rear ends already so I know it has a good amount of power. About 2 weeks ago I believe my stock computer went bad. It won't run for **** and it gives tons of codes for stuff that isn't wrong. With my computer misfortune I see this as the perfect time to upgrade my setup. My car is MAF (mass air), and I have performed all the MAF modifications but I know it is still and restriction on the big stroker motor, and I also believe the stock air cleaner assembly (y shaped thing) is also a big time restriction. Here is the problem. I really don't know what to do. Should I invest some money into a DFI system, I know this would get rid of the MAF sensor and make my car speed density MAP. If yes what is the best system to run, so far I have looked at speedpro(SEFI8LO), Accel old & new Gen VII, Haltech. Now I have tons of options there, would I be better off with batch fire, or sequential, and is the closed loop wide band O2's worth the money. OR should I get a stock MAP GM computer, buy a MAP sensor and convert my harness over to make it a MAP harness and invest a little money into the EPROM burning software and make my own speed density chips. I also would like to let you know that I plan on adding a vortech or ATI supercharger this winter. Will a stock GM computer with programming run with a supercharger making 12-15 psi of boost. Some people say yes some say no. I have had alot of people tell me the stock GM computers are top notch if they have the right chips & calibrations. I have seen a few 10 second buick GN's running stock computers with owner burned chips. If anyone can shed some light or experience on this subject it would help me alot
You only need SEFI when running huge injectors, byt the time your at 2,500 rpm, ther is no difference in the injectors firing strategies.
Don't like the MAF, just switch to the 90-92 system. Does take work but alot cheaper then going with FUEL, or some other setup.
Want to run boost with a MAP system just use a syclone ecm, and modify it.
I've got one of em lil v6 regals and it does just fine with the oem ecm.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-23-2001, 11:39 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CHarris85Vette:
Has anyone noticed any difference in the way their car runs after cutting weight from the vehicle? I have taken about 250 pounds off the car (while it is down for a rebuild) and wonder if my car will register less load in some of the tables and effect the way it runs. Am I wondering needlessly?
Thanks for any opinions and thoughts!
250 lbs. will definitely be noticeable.
WOT should stay really close to the same, but the transistional stuff will be different. Car light like the extra timing thou. Might have to pull some timing out quicker as you go to WOT.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
--------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-16-2001, 07:52 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Promgramming 101A
If you haven't read the Promgramming 101 over at DIY_EFI.org, I would suggest you do.
I've started a new series called Promgramming 101A over at the GMECM site. If you want to learn a bit more then just editing tables, better sub., to the list. It will be a slow process, but if your really serious about chipping you'll want to folllow this.
going to start off with just understanding what is in a prom/memcal, and go from there. The goal being to develope your own software, for your application. Instead of disabling say the EGR, we'll remove it from the code. Then we'll have room for adding things like timing vs MAT, etc.
If the demand is high enough, I might cross post it here, if just a couple guys from here then I'll just post at GMECM.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2001, 11:05 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Thanks for bring this aspect of "prom tuning" to everyone's attention Bruce. Modifying the actual instruction set brings an entirely new dimension to Prom Burning.
For the "uninitiated", being able to alter the instructions allow you to make the ECM behave the way YOU want it to instead of how GM wanted it.
I have already added/modified a couple of instructions to make my ECM work differently than the way GM intended. One change was how I make the EGR function. I modified comparision to use the Vehcile Speed instead of the MAT temperature to overcome a driveability issue that always bothered me. Now, my EGR engages at 15 mph instead of using the MAT temperature to engage it.
Another was the invoking of Highway Mode Spark Advance. I made that routine enable based on Vehcile speed in addition to the other tests done my the ECM, and to use the RPM as a maximum threshold as opposed to a minimum threshold for engaging. I did not like the way the ECM engaged HMSA as it theoretically would leave it on at some ridiculous high speeds.
But the point is, only by altering the instructions am I able to modify the way my ECM now utilizes the various sensor information to work the way I prefer. And if people REALLY want to get into PROM tuning, altering the instructions is the next level. Then you can do virtually ANYTHING.
I think it would cool if we could somehow make "patches" to the code available to people that would like to "dabble" with this. Optimally, a download with a "subroutine" that could either be ORG'd into the Source code or "cut, editted and pasted" if their source code is radically different from the original GM source code.
Carl Summers at DIY-EFI mentioned this several years ago. Trouble was no one was willing to go out on a limb, and help him. In the interveining years, it kept coming up, and again no one would go for it. I'm hoping it's about time for it to work now.
Yes, when we have full control there is no limits to what we can do.
I always liked the idea of being able to just use patches and basically roll your own programs.
You want SEFI MAP V6?.
Just use patches 1-4, and 9 with the base calibration.
It also appears to me a 27128 prom is all anyone needs.
use a custom program without all the self diagnostics and there is lots of room.
Have a problem?.
Then use chip B.
Well, back to editing/commenting....
Old 08-23-2001, 11:45 AM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by branz28:
Does that mean that we could possibly adapt a LT1 or LS1 MAF to our vehicles and do away with the 255 limit, or use the 730 ECM and make a LT1 PCM style setup?
You can't directly use a late MAF on any early ecm. The frequency range is way too different. The electronics is the problem. Once there is a translator, for handling that then anything is possible, but there is alot of leg work with that statment possible.
255 means two very different things here. One is the oem MAF is rated at 255 grams/sec., and the other is 255 as used in the Hex counting system, and is what the ecm works on. You can Have a MAF that reads to 510 grams/sec, but the ecm still can only read it as a highest value of 255. In the calibration you have to tell the ecm, that the limit is now 510 with a reading of 255. I use a 510 gm/sec MAF on my GN, and things are fine.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2001, 11:49 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jmon92conv:
OK, I have rigged it to work with the door open (piece of a pen cap and black tape), I am using the stock chip and memcal attached. I put the memcal chip down with the window over the light and turn the eraser on. I have tried many different times(up to an hour) yet winbin says it is not erased. Am I missing something here?
From time to time you will run into chips that just don't erase. Do you have another one to try to erase and write to?.
Most often it's a oem GM chip that just won't erase.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-23-2001, 11:48 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jmon92conv:
All I have is the stock GM chip. Is it worth getting one out of a camaro in the junkyard and trying it?
Jeremy
Might get a new one from the general, and see if that will work. If not then cut the oem prom off the memcal, and solder a ZIF socket or different prom in its place.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-23-2001, 11:27 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jwscab:
I'm gonna change my '87 350 iroc to a manual trans, and for sake of clarification, what is needed in the prom? From what i've seen on Prom mods, it is a bit(byte) setting, I'm assuming it affects the idling control loops, or maybe timing. anything else? I never seem to see a definitive answer on the message boards, so I'm guessing it's not a critical change, guys seem to convert over to stick and never mention having an issue with changing the prom. Anyone have experience w/this? Since the 350 never had a manual behind it(except for vette) is there a specific binary image that is well suited to doing this? I see people talk about the ARAP bin, is this usable w/ the MAF '165?-thanks in advance
The IAC is very different.
With an auto, it's a fluid coupling, with alot of slippage in the lowere RPM area. So the timing and fuel will be different.
All depends on what you call OK. You can use a 6 cyl memcal, and the engine will run, sort of and in some cases not to bad, does that make it right?. Not in my book. There can be a huge difference from OK, to runs correctly, to runs it's best
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-24-2001, 05:59 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86Red4+3:
My connector is exactly like the 12 pin US style connector they show. Somebody has changed the stock connector on your car?
Whichever 2 terminals you short to read codes get the 10k resistor (A&B), the third (M) can be gotten by trial and error, I think. Good luck.
That might be trouble.
I thought the serial data was at 5v.
the TCC is 12, misplugging the M into it might not be a good thing.
I dunno as a for sure, but I'd make sure before risking smoke.
The wiring diagram I have here shows Serial data as being Orange.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-24-2001, 10:44 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
I thought tunercat had a had a constant that let you choose the desired AFR at WOT? I can't seem to find it. I have accel 24 lb/hr injectors and a AFPR. Problem is that the lowest my AFPR will let me go is 48 lb/hr. I seem to be rich at WOT and when dipping into the throttle. I know this is due to the higher pressure. Maybe all I need to do is increase my injector constant to make up for the higher pressure. Other than that at cruise my BLM are damn near 128.
If the lowest you can set your fuel pressure is 48 then something is wrong, and you need to correct that first.
As you incrase pump pressure you reduce it's volume, you your playing with fire at the WOT end of things.
I'd first set the fuel pressure right and see where your BLs are, at idle and cruise.
then maybe juggle the injector size, ot voltage correction. The do a light WOT pass and see where you are (with the timing retarded some). Then work into your tune
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-24-2001, 10:45 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
I thought tunercat had a had a constant that let you choose the desired AFR at WOT? I can't seem to find it. I have accel 24 lb/hr injectors and a AFPR. Problem is that the lowest my AFPR will let me go is 48 lb/hr. I seem to be rich at WOT and when dipping into the throttle. I know this is due to the higher pressure. Maybe all I need to do is increase my injector constant to make up for the higher pressure. Other than that at cruise my BLM are damn near 128.
For WOT you want % change to fuel by rpm
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
----------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-13-2001, 10:26 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
DIY WB is here
If you poke around the DIY_EFI site the WB stuff is posted now.
Not a lab grade unit but for what "we" do is all we need.
Before anyone even mentions it.
This is all hobby stuff, NOT for profit. If your not a man of your words, please go else where. If you have to try and make a buck or offer to buy one, please just ignore the whole deal.
Yes, I'm testy about this, I've been involved with it for 4 years, and invested alot in gettin it this far.
Bruce
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2001, 01:20 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by v8power:
hate to sound stupid but what is that?
You have switching type O2 sensors and wide Bands.
GM's oem ones just switch over from rich to lean at 14.7:1 Air Fuel ratio. While some folks try to make something more of them then that, that's all they can accurately do. A WB on the other hand is designed to read specific AFRs.
While a switching type can just operate on exhaust heat, a WB needs some careful temperature mangement to get an accurate *fix* on what's going on, also some critical managing circuitry to get the signal out.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2001, 07:37 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Is this used in place of the OEM WB? Or does it need its seperate bung? If you used it for WOT tuning only can you just program the car to stay in open loop?
For the moment, it's just the guts of the matter, and it's output is read with a DVM. So no it can't be used with the stock ecm yet.
You can weld together a sampling pipe and just clamp it on when you want to use it. But using anti-foulsers and cutting them to size is a no brainer, then NAPA has a drain plug the same size as the sensor so you can just run it when you want.
thing to remember is that you can't run it without powering it up, or it ruins the sensor.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2001, 09:51 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by -=Jeff=-:
I just looked at DIY-EFI.org to see what it entails..
That is Very
from what I understand for this to be useful I will need another 'bung' for this o2 correct?
I went to the trouble in the GN to add a bung, $4 spark plug antifouler, hacsaw and dremel modification, and $5 at teh muffler shop. When not in use I have an oil plug from NAPA to fill the hole.
Then I also got a piece of 2' long 2" muffler pipe and welded a bung 9" in from the end. Then a strap down the side, so now with a large hose clamp, can install it in about any car I want. I'd had a number of fast passes with it in the GN like that and no problems
YMMV
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2001, 07:29 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
This is very cool!!!
I cross refd the sensor to a Bosche--13002, and Autozone has it for $220. Is that cheaper than Napa?
Also I talked to an EE I know about making a circuit that would read the output voltages and display them as a numeric AFR on a simple LCD display. If and when successful, I'll spread the instructions. Electronics design is a little beyond me, I can handle the simple stuff. I am working on my ME degree.
NAPA's been going for about $139.
You want an OS 791
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-25-2001, 09:13 AM #22
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by a73camaro:
Gotta ask. I would think that one should be able to get a junkyard WB O2 sensor. What kinda life can one expect from one of these sensors?
I have yet to hear of one being found in a junkyard, who's to say it would be good to begin with?.
using unleaded they are designed to last like a normal one, ie at least 50K miles. On a decent running engine I'd expect a fair amount longer then that.
When running leaded race gas, there are all kinds of variances about how long they last.
I'll be using mine for when I'm actually tuning, and the take it out when not in use, a simple extra bung makes that possible, and then just a drain plug to block the hole
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2001, 09:15 AM #23
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by steve8586iroc:
Which ecm's will this work on?
For the moment, this just has a voltage output that you read with a voltmeter, and then translate that to a AFR.
There are several displays and interface projects going. In the next few weeks there should be some news along those lines.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-24-2001, 07:05 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by e-man:
What is the main fuel tables labled as in winbin (not PE)?
I don't use winbin, but since there haven;t been any answers
Most of the MAP style editors call the fuel table, VE the plotted against rpm, and a MAP value (usually K/Pa)
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-25-2001, 08:57 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by e-man:
Sorry I forgot to say its a maf system.
With a 165 MAF there are 5 Air Flow Scalers. There aren't any tables. Just corrections for how the MAF interupts frequency as being air flow.
------------------------------
Old 08-25-2001, 06:58 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by justinjjf:
when my 1988z28(maf) is ideling my blms are just about 128/128 but the o2 readings are bouncing anywhere from 150-760....what would cause this? or is it normal?
That's normal.
The 14.7 AFR stuff is kind of miss leading. It's an average of 14.7 that the ecms maintains. It *toggles* the PW of the injectors to do this, so you see the O2 voltages bounce around.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-24-2001, 07:01 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jmon92conv:
[b]This is in regards to the earlier post by me. Thanks for everyones help so far. I bought a new GM memcal to erase, science mine would not. Now the new one won't either. I am not looking for some one to burn a chip for me, but if someone is within a hour of Louisville, KY, and willing to help, I would very much like to talk to you in real time.
[b]
have you gotten any to erase read write?.
Do you have any loose eproms?.
If you haven't gotten anything to work and want to just try a couple epeoms to see if you got things down right email off list, and I'll send you a couple (need to know what size your working on)
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-25-2001, 07:04 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by justinjjf:
there are 2 table that relate to %tps vs.RPM (IN TUNER CAT)....hot/normal...what one do I want to step the %tps down on???? my steps are way up around 70%(stock arap.bin)
ps. Is there anyway I could talk with you over the phone???
Normal is the table I's imagine you'd want to play with. Seeing the hot ones are set so low makes sense, with a hot engine you wouldn't want to unecessarily load the engine.
I'd try setting them all at 50 and try that. Should make a very noticeable difference.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-25-2001, 07:08 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by justinjjf:
ps. Is there anyway I could talk with you over the phone???
Between the garage, helping friends, and being on line, that's almost impossible.
I check in here about evertime I check my email, so this is about the best way to get ahold of me other then driving over..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2001, 11:01 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by justinjjf:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy:
Between the garage, helping friends, and being on line, that's almost impossible.
I check in here about evertime I check my email, so this is about the best way to get ahold of me other then driving over..
If you would be willing to help me out... I definitly will be on my way.....If this is a possibilty let me know......I would be very interested in some hands on training with someone who knows what they are doing......
The EFI POWWOW III is sladed for Sep 22-23, that is definetly a serious must do. Arcanum OH.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-21-2001, 08:44 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dyno Don:
Here is a good one: Maybe someone can figure it out for me.
I took a stock chip(2732A) from a 8746 ECM erased it and when I tried to program it I get a "programming error".
I check and it says it is erased. I click on program compare and it says "it can be reprogramed". I click on move device to buffer and then click on edit buffer and guess what? The former file is still there.
What gives anybody know? Do they put some code in there to prevent writing over it?
Haven't had this problem with other eproms, just 2732A.(two of them same thing).
Sounds like you've gotten the programming voltages wrong. That 2732A might be a plain 2732. Or slightly weak, and need a higher programming voltage.
I'm about ignoring what's said on the chip anymore, just start at the lowest programing volatge and then set up one voltage atta time till it programs.
-----------------------------------
Old 08-26-2001, 10:32 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun:
I read somewhere recently that if you change the prom ID to 0xAA that it disables the checksum routine.
That is it.
-----------------------------------
Old 08-26-2001, 02:29 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
Hey everyone. I'm at my wits' end so I'd like to get some opinions. I have a solid check engine light and my Diacom wont link to the computer at all no matter what. Shorting out A and B and putting the ignition on doesnt do anything. No code 12 or anything else. EPROM is brand new in a brand new CALPAK. Changed out the ECM with an Autozone one, it does the same thing. What the hell could it be ?!?
What were you doing, or when did this start?.
If just happened out of the blue, well
Check all fuses. Some may look just fine, but be open, while your doing this actually remove the fuse, so that if it's a poor connection the R+R cures it.
If it still acts dead, then remove the ecm connectors, and with an ohm meter make sure all the grounds are actually grounded.
Next, and this is a PITA< just go wire by wire looking for something that is grounded that shouldn't be.
Some parts houses have a break out box. Little bit bigger then an ecm, and it plugs in where the ecm used to, and it reads out any problems, as far as sensors or loads go..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2001, 12:42 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
It just happened after I replace the intake gaskets a couple days ago. Today I drove it, and it seems like it's not gettng any spark advance. The exhaust is very loud, just like it is when the timing is not advanced at all. Two days ago when it did link, I remember looking at the Diacom screen and where it says "Spark advance relative to TDC = 0" where usually you do see a number there. Now I did replace the ignition module in the distributor and the "set timing connector" is plugged in. I'm really starting to think it's a melted wire somewhere.
Melted or pinched. That is so easy to do.
Sounds like your in limp home mode, No advance ofther then in the module design really clinches it, least by your discription.
Hope it's an easy one to find
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-26-2001, 02:33 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jcygan:
I'm running a $32B EPROM in a 1227165 ECM (87 vette).
There's a few things the I can't seem to get from an archive search. First, is "low gears" 1-3, and "high gears" 4th(OD)? There seems to have been some argument over this.
Second, what relation do the TCC constants have to the TCC tables and which is the "master" figure? Because the constants only have speed, are they absolute no matter what the TPS indicates? Or do the tables override the constant settings?
Usually low gears are 1-2, and high 3-4.
Your TTC guestions have me confused.
How about naming which constants you looking at. By master do you mean Forced Losuk up?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-26-2001, 10:58 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
In TunerCat there are the ECM Constant entries for TCC Unlock/Lock MPH for each high and low gears.
But, then there's the tables for TCC Unlock/Lock with MPH:TPS% for each high and low gears.
My question would be if I set it not to lock in low or high gears below 40MPH in the constant(MPH Only). Then the tables only come into effect Over 40MPH??? So, both have to be true for the lockup to occur, not either to be true.
There were some referemces to PWM controlled fans but I don't think any of them are F Boc related.
The TCC has a min enable temp..
The TCC only locks under a given set of circumstances, ie min TPS, and road speed. to little TPS and it opens and too much TPS and it opens, often there is a forced apply at high speed.
Is that what your asking?.
If not what is it your trying to change?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------------
Old 08-22-2001, 11:59 AM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
so whats gona make me the fastest? unlucked majority, or locked, should i have it lock at a certain rpm powerband at certain mph in certain gears? or is going to effect my times or driving feel much? im actually more interested in it working quickest for day to day, autox style, than 1/4 mile.
The TCC in oem apllications is only intended to min slippage in little cruise, ONLY.
The Converters to take WOT and be locked cost like $900.
Trying to do otherwise will generate material from the TCC being shredded and of and either plugging the filter, or some VB passage way. LONG TERM, you'll kill the tranny. BTDT
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-29-2001, 01:18 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by formula5:
I have a 85 tpi setup,stock prom.Once in a while code45 pops up on the highway.The light stays on until the key is turned off.The o2 reads 900-950 mv when the ses is on.When i turn the car back on the mv go back to normal and no ses.Other than that it runs fine.Could the tps voltage a little high make this happen?
Doubtful, but if in doubt the min idle and IAC should be redone.
45 is rich, there are a bunch of parameters that must be set to throw that code, one being a timer. So after you power down the timer is reset. reading rich when in a fail soft mode is normal
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-29-2001, 09:40 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jcygan:
Ok, I've searched and read many posts on this and other boards, downloaded nearly everything from th GM_ECM site. But, how on earth do I tell which is a stock 6E bin for an 89 vette? The AUJM6E is for a camero, AUJN6E is for a Firebird(or is it the other way around). There are lots of them out there with the word vet in them, but how to tell the stock from tuned? Oh, and what's the difference between their bin directory and their bin_lib directory? Is one stock and one not? Is it the very popular bin_lib/arap_6e? It's mentioned a LOT but never with the word STOCK in the same article.
Has anyone put together a site to list all this stuff? I would, if I could ever figure this out :-)
Just start with an ARAP.
There are various flags and switches that need set depending on you application, ie vats, radiator fans. The answers are right here, for the options, once you get an editor, it will become more clear what you have to deal with. Don't even begin to try and learn all the ecm info., immediately.
It takes years of daily use to get some of down.
If you using a MAF system, the start with ARAP, get the editing software you'll be using. then read up on the tuning end of things. Then start off slowly, and take notes
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2001, 10:21 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jnjspdshop:
Just yesterday my zif socket arrived from digikey. So I took an old memcal I had laying around and desoldered the stock eprom. Now that I have the old eprom off there is room for the ZIF socket, but it says to solder it to the memcal. It doesn't look like there is enough room to solder the ZIF socket on, any tips on doing this one??
Thanks
If you had clipped the old prom off, then soldered to the old bits of the legs would have been easier
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-29-2001, 01:15 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
With the existing ECMs (7730 or 7165), it is impossible to program "on the fly" as there is no circuitry in the ECM to "write" to the prom (as I understand it). Further, if you WERE able to change things "on the fly" the ECM would have to know how to alter the checksum or you'd encounter a Code 51.
On many of the ecms there is a way to access the processors RAM, and do on the fly tuning, or do some reflashing of a SRAM (?) when installed in place of a eprom. Thu the ALDL.
That's how the drivibility teams did it at different times.
Kalmaker makes use of this unused code. Some folks think the references to various impossible addresses are for rebooting etc, it's for the add on tuning stuff or ecm testing stuff, that repair facilities use, from what I've been told.
Wassa a guy that had done an auto select for 1-2-3 bar map sensors, and write on the fly thru the aldl for a 8625.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-29-2001, 10:38 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomcat:
I use this software quite a bit , and I gotta agree with Bruce , as you are doing the on the fly change you do have to sit back and take a look at what is going on and attack the tune progresively.
To modify the 165 all that is required is to change the MAF wiring for TPS and swap a few pins at the ecu end (also delete a few like egr ) and a internal wire to be added to a SRAM board that is used in place of the memcal . Note the wiring mod can be done and then use Tunercats $5D defintion file without buying kalamker but you are not on the fly then .
I believe the code has been rewritten internally to allow this real time programming and it must swap between 2 binary images in the SRAM as the changes are made. I am only summising all this as the SRAM is twice the size of the binary file.
The new version, which I havent upgraded to yet but I have had a play with it , does auto tune (closed loop only but I found you want to be pretty close to start with before turning ) and does a 1 ,2 and 3 bar map sensors.
With the issue of the loosing where your previous change it can be undone if you havent saved the change and you are only modifying on point at a time not a whole calibration - gotta be careful not to move the mouse too fast thogh sometimes.
I dont sell the stuff , just something I found that works for me and a hell of a lot better than fitting the Haltech of ACCELL etc
JMY2c worth.
Do you ever have a stall when making changes?. Even swapping files, I'd image that to happen. Code might be so large that at the point of switching code it goes fail soft mode for an instant.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2001, 10:25 AM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC&ROLL:
I have contacted Alan at Injection Connection (Kalmaker) and will probably be buying StreetPro3. At present, I have a DFI Infinity (the original Accel Power Processor, before Accel bought DFI). I have had no problem programming it on the fly. Note that Kalmaker says to not do that yourself and if you have a passenger doing it, they should have the screen turned away from you. Kalmaker has a lot more capabilities than my Infinity. I especially want the water injection control capability so I can do away with the funky pressure switch that came with my Paxton. And with their crappy (for them) exchange rate, this system is only $550 shipped! Move over DFI, Haltech, etc., etc..
I just hope they don't pack up and leave for 6 months or so like they did before, and just left their customers in the Outback.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 09:41 AM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomcat:
Yeah Alans not a bad bloke , I got my setup of him after trying for ages to locate the mob that used to sell it , they just disappeared.
He seems helpful enough and the big advantage for me was he only lives about 50kms away so no problems getting technical support.he even leant me his version of the new software so I could have a play with it as a beta testa to see if I wanted to upgrade.
Gotta say its great not having to pull the memcal out every time I want to experiment.
Can you read the final bin in the Kalmaker so you can burn a prom with the same code?.
So you can use it on another car?.
----------------------------------
Old 08-30-2001, 09:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
I'm using Craig's software to datalog for tuning. Do any of you use the 0-60 and 1/4 mile functions? I've been using the 0-60 as a performance meter for tuning changes. I assume it triggers when the wheels start rolling and triggers again at 60. Am I correct in assuming that I could be producing worse than "real life" times because of wheel spin, but could not produce faster than real life times? I'm down to 4.8 and even saw a 4.7. The car definately feels that strong, but that would put it in pretty good company according to the current magazine tests of different sports cars.
Any computations based on the VSS are suject to a multitude of small errors, and when they all stack up right can be miss leading.
On the optical VSSs they only pulse 3 times per tire rotation so there is a varialbe of 2' before before the tire turns, tire spin can fubar the reading.
Now with that said, they can be used very successfully for noting general trends, and then that gives you a head start when you get to the track and can be more accurate.
I've been using a VSS timer for tuning (roughing things out like I mentioned above) for oh about 8 years now.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 10:35 PM #3
Craig Moates
Senior Member
Craig Moates's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Posts: 1,490
Car: 87 T/A
Engine: 441 SBC 12.5:1 0.630" Lift
Transmission: T-56
iTrader: (0)
Yeah, pretty much. I forget what I ended up doing, thought I had a trigger speed (like 3mph) to start the calculation so it would ignore the initial launch. Then I thought I put in a linear extrapolation back to zero time/MPH based on the acceleration curve subsequent. Know what I had in mind, but unsure what ended up in the code. Guess I could look?
That being said, a linear extrapolation back to zero time-distance is pretty reasonable and doesn't introduce significant error beyond what is already present.
Interpolation is also used in determining threshold events through time elsewhere. For instance, if at 5.56 seconds you are traveling at a speed of 57mph and at 6.56 seconds you are clipping along at 63mph then the program calculates that your 60mph time is right at 6.06 seconds. Since data is only logged as it is refreshed at the ECM, and assuming that the ECM data is timely with respect to the actual performance, the interpolation techniques will avoid to some extent gross introduction of error. These same techniques are utilized for distance (time-integrated speed), time (PC clock), and speed (VSS). You have essentially a speed term (U) and a time term (t). Distance is the integral of U with respect to time, since U=dx/dt, separating you get dx=Udt. The definite integral bounded in t with corresponding values of U will give you the change in distance. Since time intervals are typically quite small (0.1s), U can be assumed as constant at the average of its values at the beginning and end of the intervals.
Then you've got acceleration, or dU/dt. Comes right from the measurements, but you don't need it for the time/distance relations. When we get into power and torque calcs though, it's there for ya. What is it, F=ma=(3400#)*(dU/dt), W=F*dist=3400#*(dU/dt)*(Uavg*(t-t0)). Don't know, I'm no mechanical engineer.
When coupled with the zero-time intercept determination, the interpretation comes pretty clean, as clean as it can with what you get. Wheelspin will introduce error no doubt. If the threshold time or speed is specified appropriately and the back-extrapolation carried out properly, the error introduction can be minimized.
Caveats include the difficulty in identifying wheelspin and excluding it, and the fact that acceleration through wheelspin does not have the same speed-time curvature as that of hooking up. So the extrapolations back to zero could be in error. One solution? Get some meatier tires! Another? Wire in some kind of phantom VSS at the front wheel and feed the signal in to the ECM instead of the regular VSS. Cross-check the program results against a GTech. I did and found my VSS was off by like 10%. So my 1/4 times on the way to work (open road, no traffic of course...) were closer to 97 rather than the 88 reported by the program.
Hope this helps some in understanding, didn't mean to get too off track in the ramblings.
-Craig
Old 09-01-2001, 08:37 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Craig Moates:
Yeah, pretty much. I forget what I ended up doing, thought I had a trigger speed (like 3mph) to start the calculation so it would ignore the initial launch.
-Craig
In my tinkering, traction was the key to things. I had to kill alot of the low end performance (under the stall speed of the conveter), to get the car to move rather then light the tires.
I was ignoring the first 3 tire revolutions, and even then at times I'd get a bogus time. If you want accuracy, I'd go for like 10-60. Interpolating backwards means assuming the converter's operation is linear, traction is linear (even just as a matter of tread heat, it's not).
If you want accuracy then, an ABS sensor ring (on a front tire)would be the trick.
ALso with a 0-60 your *hoping* the tranny shifts exactly the same.
Not saying what your doing is bad, just, that it's a tuning tool, not a statement of fact of what the actual 0-60 is.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-25-2001, 01:29 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by justinjjf:
how can I take care of the minni ram stumble problem.......will engaging PE sooner help?
form a dead stop I jump on it and it falls on its face..... the o2 readings go extremly low....so I am asuming its a lean condition....does anyone have any tips for me
I had to take the timing down to -6 below 2,000 rpm with my FBod to get it to leave clean. Try taking a bunch of timing out below the stall / flash speed of the converter. You'll proably go way down in % TPS for PE. To get the GN to leave cleanly I have the first step of PE at 11%, then the next one at 18%. Timing is like 12d til 2200 rpm.
AE enrichments are just about a lost resort for me.
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-01-2001, 08:22 AM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin91Z:
If I can make it idle at 41-44 KPa and have 17" of vacuum, why would I want to mess with that and have less vacuum? Vacuum is good!
Am I just being stubborn and missing something here?
Nature hates vacuum.
I can make an engine do alot of things, but the point is getting things the way the engine wants. That's the whole trick.
If your throttle blade is closed all the way then you do have a problem, since at that point the idle is under 100% of the IAC.
Check for a vac leak, you might have to play games with PVC, brake booster line restrictions to drop the air leakage past the butterflies to a reasonable amount. THEN try backing up your idle timing, and playing with your mixture.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2001, 07:31 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Camaro_hunter_d:
ok according to that DIY-EFI site its a '730 comp and has the $8D or the $88. Are these both basically the same programs or what?. I have downloaded AZTY.bin and 730_AZTY_ecu and the azty_hac.dsm. I am downloading WINBIN again. so the question is what else do I need to start modding the bin? Or do I even have the right one even?
8D or 88 are the Mask identifiers, there are at least a dozen for the 1227730.
If with hex editor you look at location 0008 that will tell you want Mask your working on, then you can find the right editor.
8D was only used in v8s originally.
Traxions article at the top of the page is where to start.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-23-2001, 11:20 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CHarris85Vette:
I saw your post a while back about the plastic carriers that protect the chips. I've had to break several of the carriers that I've removed from cars and have not found a source to replace these carries. Often a friction fit on the pins will hold a prom in place, but
I'm always worried about them coming loose. Where did you order your carriers from and can I get the part number from you?
They are a junk yard item now.
There were several efforts to get dies made and a new batch made, but it feel thru.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2001, 07:22 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Pablo:
What they said, I got extras from junkers
btw im back from training, im at the pensacola naval airstation now
They gonna let you have a car on post?.
A marine, eh?.
Gonna go recon?.
About the only thing more fun then burning chips is a combat jump (token prom related material). LOL
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-02-2001, 09:52 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Hi. My Miniram is off and the Super ram on. I did not adjust my lower VE tables at all and the car starts and idles fine with IAC counts of 40 and, KPA of 50 and BLM/INT of 128. This is exactly the same as the Miniram. The thing is thast I have what sounds liek a vacuum leak in the intake. But I have the same vacuum level as before and the BLM and INT are the same. I'm thinking I'm just not used to the sound of the Super ram yet. With the MAF, if you had a vacuum leak, it would usually show up with a very high BLM value at idle. Does speed density follow the same path? The car runs great. I probed the intake with propane and didn't notice anything. I was really careful about sealing when I installed. Thanks
JAson
Different intakes on a given engine can sound very different. The closer you get to an independent runner setup (no plenum, one butterfly per cylinder) , the louder it gets.
Did you have to change the butterfly opening?. Some engines with a real small butterfly openings will actually whistle at idle. Retarding the timing, can allow a slightly large butterfly opening, and get rid of it. Or advancing the timng, and closing them more. Both just move around when it whistles.
All EFIs react the same to vac leaks.
You can have a vac leak on the bottom side of the manifold (into the lifter valley), and propane won't find that.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2001, 11:33 AM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Thats exactly what I have been saying, Jason's seems a little lower than mine(and shouldn't be). Tim's is alot higher than mine and it should be.
The tune can play a big role in this.
Lots of timing adds to vac., but raises idle speed (no other changes). Lean will drop idle some (all other things being equal).
I could get my Comp cam 270 355 to idle from 45 to 55 K/Pa. Best idle quality for My combo was at the 55 area.
Took adding restrictors for the brake booster PCV etc to get the 45 number.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2001, 01:52 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
I've tried changing crank timing, fuel several different ways and it still has the longer crank times. Has anyone figured this out yet? Give me some direction to look in? I'm getting to the point of considering trying the APYU and transferring my already tuned tables to it....this is on an 86 vette-still maf. Thanks for any input.
Try hooking the 9th injector back up.
That might give a direction to look in.
ie if fuel related.
Does the motor spin over readily?.
There generally is a min crank speed the ecm needs to see.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 12:15 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Sarkee:
When you change a value in the EPROM, and burn the new chip, the values in the BLM table are still the old values from before the changes, right???
Is it good practice to (somehow) wipe out the old learned values and drive for a while for the ECU to learn the new values??? (Or will driving overwrite the values without any coaxing from me)???
If so, how to erase the old values???
(Sorry if my terminology is off - still learning!)
If your serious about soing chips the install a switch on the Orange Bat wire near the ecm. Also makes for an anti theft devise. The orange lead is the mainpower to the ecm, the pink/black just tells the ecm to wake up.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 12:19 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HrdRockA4305:
I guess the subject gives it away, i was looking around on Tuner Cat and didn't seen an ECM part # listed for my car, and i thought i'd heard before that somewhere that the 88 TBI car has some oddball ECM that nobody really works with.
Now, if someday i get into chip tuning (I know theres some real good reasons too, but its my only car and i don't have the time to get really into this tuning thing much right now, don't have enough mods yet to really need it anyway) would i need a different ECM altogether? I have the "box" out of an 89 RS, would this just plug in and work? Thanks for any input, i'm trying not to ask stupid questions.
Your right, not all ecms are hac'd or have the software available to edit them.
You would be best served by getting the slightly newer one or a 747.
The 747 is totally hac'd so you can change about anything, tune wise, and there are some neat patches for it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 02:39 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HrdRockA4305:
Well, i just went out to the garage and looked at that spare ECM i have, and its an 8746 which there seems to be lots of info on. Its out of my freinds car that had the same exact powertrain as mine, its just a year newer, so it should just "plug in" like you said, right? It'll be a while probably before i have the time/money to get into tuning, not to mention i'm quite a few mods away from needing it, but i appreciate your help thanx guys!
Just for giggles, you might go ahead and plug it in, and see how your car runs on it.
Rather find out now weither good or bad.
There might also be a marked improvement in drivibility
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 02:46 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by davidjon_99:
Saw your previous post about wot delay in your 4x4. I have the same ECM in my truck and was looking at a bin I downloaded from Internet. I don't have mine copied from my truck yet, but once I do I'll use it to start from.
The bin I have has 110 second's wot delay according to tunercat.
Is that what your's started with? Seems like a huge delay. Did you change it?
Thanks in advance
My 4x4?. Ya lost me on that one.
Anyway, yes that is a long time.
I'm not sure about you application and useage, but there is a rpm bypass that eliminates that. Setting it to like say 1,800 rom , or just over stall speed should work OK. You can set it down, also. On some of the truck stuff they have it so you can't lug the engine down too quickly like when rock crawling.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 03:09 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by My90Iroc:
I have winbin and got the .ecu that is on the intro. page "730_727.ecu" and then got a .bin for my car '90 305 TPI 5 spd but winbin said "incorrect ecu format" when I tried to view or edit this. Am I missing something, or could this file be bad? Is there anywhere that I can find this stuff? While we're at it, if anyone has a .bin that'd be a good starting point for a 385 cu. in. motor with AFR heads, SR intake, and a cam with duration of 230 - 240 @.050 that'd be appreciated too. Thanks.
Every car and driving stylevary to some degree, so no modified chip is really going to help you.
It's far better to start with a *known* then start with what might be a trash calibration to begine with. It's real easy to go right past a sweet spot and not know it when your doing your own to start with one the has that type of error would be trouble.
You want to start with an AUJP bin. should be one in the bin library at the www.diy-efi.org site
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 03:17 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by My90Iroc:
I have winbin and got the .ecu that is on the intro. page "730_727.ecu" and then got a .bin for my car '90 305 TPI 5 spd but winbin said "incorrect ecu format" when I tried to view or edit this. Am I missing something, or could this file be bad? Is there anywhere that I can find this stuff? While we're at it, if anyone has a .bin that'd be a good starting point for a 385 cu. in. motor with AFR heads, SR intake, and a cam with duration of 230 - 240 @.050 that'd be appreciated too. Thanks.
Sorry make that an ANHT, first one was an auto tranny version
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 12:11 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by bigblue:
I just put a t56 in my L98 monte (1987 165 ECM, harness on TPI) and noticed that now it doesn't want to idle under 1000 rpm. Everything is hooked up fine (ECM's vehicle speedo sensor input registers fine through scanner, no codes present).
I have checked for obvious vacuum leaks and I dont think there are any. The car is hard to drive slowly because of the high idle. Could this be caused by the reduction of the automatic transmission's front pump's constant load on the engine? If so, what should I do?
MODERATORS- sorry if this shouldn't be in the DIY PROM section, couldn't figure where it would be best- please move to correct forum if neccessary
If you running a manual tranny then you should be running a memcal for a manual tranny.
There are strategy differences between the two.
What did you do with the 3rd 4th gear tranny switch inputs, and P/N switch?.
Does the wiring diagram your referring to show any gear select switch inputs needed for what you installed?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2001, 07:28 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by chiefz28:
I seem to get this most often when I leave off then get back in to it or coasting a bit the get into it heavy.I have increase my pumpshot 10% as it was popping just trying to accelarate and that seem to clear that up.could this still be the pumpshot or is there something else that would cause this.mods listed in SIG.thanks
AFRs are they AL?.
Might try disabling the DFCO (decleration fuel cut off). Keeping the chambers hot might cut down on the AE needed for that.
And or taking some timing out in overrun, ie in the 30 K/Pa vs rpm area, at say 1800 and above rpm.
Without DFCO you might have a real crackle in hte exhaust during overun.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2001, 12:45 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by chiefz28:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy:
AFRs are they AL?.
Might try disabling the DFCO (decleration fuel cut off). Keeping the chambers hot might cut down on the AE needed for that.
And or taking some timing out in overrun, ie in the 30 K/Pa vs rpm area, at say 1800 and above rpm.
Without DFCO you might have a real crackle in hte exhaust during overun.
yes they are Alum.What does that AE stand for.I've have seen many times but have been able to figure what it stands for.I'm sorry I failed to mention that I'm still in the beginning stages of set my lower VE table and I'm currently running very richat low rpm's I've been discussing this in my last post VE vs RPM vs MAP Sorry I didn't add this earlier as it my effect your answer to this post.
Since they're AL I'd go first with disabling the DFCO and see what that gets you, then try taking some timing out during overrun.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2001, 02:01 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by chiefz28:
pumpshot vs differential TPS
TPS MUTIPLIER
0.0 100.0
3.1 82.2
6.3 54.7
9.4 41.4
12.5 41.4
15.6 41.4
18.8 41.4
21.9 41.4
25.0 27.3
31.3 27.3
34.4 27.3
37.5 27.3
40.6 27.3
43.8 27.3
46.9 27.3
50.0 27.3
I do plan on trying Bruces suggestion as soon I find it I'm using tunercat 8_d ECM where is the DFCO located I don't seem to see anything lable that unless maybe it's labeled different than
For an 8D mask;
05E8: FCB 0 ; DEG C FOR DISABLE OF C/O
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 10:18 PM #19
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy:
For an 8D mask;
05E8: FCB 0 ; DEG C FOR DISABLE OF C/O
Anyone try this?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 12:05 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by crucial:
hi. I'm pretty new to prom burning but I'd like to ask a question. My knock sensor's been bypassed for the last couple of years or so with a resistor to ground ( I have my reasons). Lately I'm starting to see knock counts on Diacom and I can see and feel the timing being pulled back by the ECM. Even though I've pretty much zeroed out the knock tables in the bin for NO knock retard it still does it. My question is... is there a routine in the .bin that can by somehow bypassed for the ECM to completly ignore the knock sensor input ? Or a flag that could be set somehow ?
Thanx
Flags are different then not running a routine.
If your using an 8D mask try setting 020A and 020B, to FF. Being experimential in nature use the above at your own risk. Your already running sans sensor, which depending on your availibility of good gas can make this potentialy danagerous.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 02:54 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by P J Moran:
I can see how knock can still be detected, but if he sets the max retard to zero, how can he still be seeing retard? Is there logic that will retard the timing "regardless"?
When you just 0 tables out, the code may run in a loop from that, still looking for a *factor*. You can get ALDL code to just run continually by 0'ing out something the ecm expects to see. On some of the O2less codes you can watch the BLs run 0 to 256 and repeat for every each correction taking a min or 5. Some code can be flat spooky to watch run.
That why I suggest to folks who are serious about actual code and tuning to make an ECM test bench.
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/project...cm_tbench1.jpg
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-06-2001, 09:28 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
I've had very good luck "capping" the Max Knock Retard @ WOT (or while in PE). This allows me to control my knock incidences @ WOT, but retain the knock sensor for part throttle.
I cap mine at 30d.
Yep,
I've gotten a load of lousy gas several times, and I'd rather let the engine go way down on power then have any detonation.
Just my 1.326 cents worth
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 10:22 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by gsf-87IROC:
I just splurged and bought a nice 600 Mhz laptop to do tuning with and some school work...well, it doesn't seem to work with the Moate's data logging software I have been using...
Has anyone else had any problems running the Moate's software with a faster computer? I don't know if it's a com port issue or if the computer is too fast. I have heard of people having issues with Diacom and fast computers...
Thanks,
If you leave that in plain view don't be surprised if it's gone. I've got a ol used 486/25 that I use in the car. Does prom burning data logging, and if it's gone sometime I'm out $50.
FWIW
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-06-2001, 09:30 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by gsf-87IROC:
I have been careful thus far...I leave it in the trunk and such...at the track I'll have to be more careful though...but if we look at the bright side...in 3 months...it'll be a dinosaur!
Thanks for the help getting this running guys...I checked it last night and datalogged...got 9-10 frames/sec...thing just lost it's connection after 500 or so seconds...hopefully that doesnt' happen often...
??
What are you doing that takes that long to log?.
30 seconds is about what I run 99% of the time
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2001, 03:22 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Though we eventually plan to go to SD (or let's say I am recommending it), we are also initially starting with MAF (just to see how far we can push it and to compare our results to SD should we ultimately go to SD).
Mike Davis already did this and documented the results at his web site.
SD, won.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-07-2001, 09:23 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by davidjon_99:
Being new to prom burning I've had difficulty understanding a lot of the tables and perameters. Last night I picked up a copy of "How to Tune & Modify Chevrolet Fuel Injection". Even though it says Fuel Injection, it talks a lot about the ECU and has shed a lot of light on many of the functions that the computer controls.
Gotta be careful about what you assume is correct in reading some manuals. ie each group of 4 injectors firing together since they are wired in two groups. On the 730s, and 165s there is in fact only one injector driver, the wires tie together on the circuit board.
----------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-07-2001, 12:19 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
A must read
There are a few papers here that really need read by all. Server is down for the moment, but try again later .
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-07-2001, 07:37 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by tpi_roc:
If I burn a prom, (for a 305) and stick it in a ZIF in a 350 memcal, will that have any adverse effects as long as the comptuer stays out of limp?
The Knock sensor filters vary.
Might trace detonate too much and do long term damage. Far better to use the right one. I've done the different K/S Knock module dance before and it can take lots and lots of time to get the right parts. Unless your really good at reading plugs I'd say use the right memcal.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2001, 06:34 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by tpi_roc:
Well I tried to get a price from the idiots at GM dealership, they said $60, does that sound right for a new memcal?
I dont have an extra $60 right now so im hoping its eaither cheaper, or will work with the 350 memcal
$60 for the right part, or your gambling with a set of rings, or exhaust valves.
It's easier to do things right once.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-07-2001, 09:20 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
I am using an ADS piggy-back with a Flash Prom replacing the stock ADS eprom.
It does save you having to R&R the stock GM Memcal, but I only did this because I already had the ADS piggy-back. I wouldn't get a piggy-back JUST to save me from modding the stock GM Memcal as a spare GM Memcal is still cheaper.
I WISH I knew where you could by a "blank" piggy-back though. It REALLY looks cheap to make. Wouldn't even want them to put an Eprom in it, as I would insert a Flash Prom.
The blanks are about $45 last I checked.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2001, 07:39 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ryn28:
$45 for blank memcals sounds good enough. I only really need two, one for burning and one as backup. What about the limp home part of the memcal? I would like to keep all the functions of limp home and trouble codes for easier diagnostics should something go bad.
45 for the Jet type Memcal holder, that piggy back the stock memcal.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-08-2001, 10:35 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28DJP1987:
Can you use 87 corvette TPI chip in a 3rd gen
TPI of the same year?? What advantage would there be if any?? Any Pro or Con on this??
If you going to be burning chips the you'll want to use an ARAP. If search will show you what needs done. If this is just a what if guestion, then the answer is there is no reason to. With out actually tuning there is no real gains from playing mix and match
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-08-2001, 09:25 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Sarkee:
I've read here and elsewhere that the ECU and tuning programs all "assume" that you have the correct timing set for your engine. Spark advance, injector timing, and even knock retard values all are based on your having the correct static timing.
So, why is there such a "leap of faith" that the indicated degrees at the damper and pointer are true???
Is there a generally accepted method of establishing true TDC, so that the damper and/or pointer can be calibrated???
It seems to me that if I get a dynamite setup for my chip, in my car, with my mods, and were to post it and have a fellow member with exactly the same car/setup try it...And get all kinds of knock event counts, then there must be an underlying reason why...
Like a damper that's 2* or 4* off in static timing...
I've seen dampers with degree gradations on them; and timing tape; and even degree wheels...But how do you find *exactly* TDC???...Even a calibrated rod stuck down the spark plug hole is at best an approximation...
???
If you want to really split hairs then you'll want to worry about the crank throws being EXACTLY 90d apart.
You have to get to a point where you do make some assumptions.
The NASCAR boys take things to the extremes, hense the 50K+ price on engines. You can blueprint things til you run out of money.
No two engines are identical. You just can't hold machining tolerances close enough to do it. You can even get to the metallergy from one batch of steel to the next varing some.
While you can bastardise a calibraion to run on several similiar engines, that ignores all the driver preferences.
All the more reason for running the min timing possible. As the piston is approaching TDC it is slowing down, so you can get more accurate timing control that way.
This all just helps to point the way that you need to do your own chip, and one from some else will never be right for your application.
Well with one exception but his stuff is only for the 89 TTA
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-08-2001, 09:39 AM
---------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-06-2001, 09:23 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
I've been doing fine with the 6E and 8D tdfs (tunercat) and I'm now going to help a friend just change the fans and a few other basics on his ZR1- but the constants are really different from the 6E and 8D. And no I'm not trying to charge $$ for anything! I only drink his beer! Anyway-has anyone done any tuning with the AF that I could ask questions from? Or know where I could find definitions for it????? Thanks for any help!
There really isn't much to find.
Depending on the local gas, is about all you'll account for.
The ZR, and beginning with the LT stuff is really good.
It's the old if you want to feel faster add some timing/fuel, but the car won't be much faster. The exception again is what your local gas is like.
"N" ya need to be dead on reading plugs to double check yourself with that motor.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2001, 02:01 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Earl 87gta:
I have read a ton of the posts and how to guides and I Just want to make sure I have every thing I need to start burning a chip for my car please let me know if I need any thing else. This is what I have so far or have ordered and will be getting soon:
1. Transtronics pocket Programer
2. Transtronics UV-eprom eraser
3. Tuner cat Tuner & Definition file for 87 TPI GTA
4. Do I need the tuner cat TDF editor if so I will have to get it
5. I also have a lo pro zif soket and two 27c128A-120 EPROMs
6. I have a scan tool it a had held but it will do until I get a laptop
Hopefully this is all I need and will soon be on my way to being able to tune my car to its fullest potential.
You'd probably be happier going with the calibration for a 89 MY car, ie using the 6E ID Mask.
Instead of an eraser you can use flash proms, there are numerous posts on doing that.
Still need a stop watch or something to actually measure performance, butometers just ain't accurate enough.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2001, 01:57 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin91Z:
The ARAP is the best bin for all 86-89 TPI cars, regardless of engine size.
Best one to start with.
Still needs tweaking for it to be right for any given application.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2001, 03:55 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor J:
Using Diacom to tune a '91 Y-body, I measure about 6.7 frames of info per sec (at idle speeds) at max Diacom record setting.
However at 5000-ish RPM I think I am getting a different number of frames/sec - has anyone else seen this? Is it a feature of
Diacom (or is my old laptop screwey)? Or has the UV eraser started to affect my mind as well as my proms?
What I'm trying to do is adjust WOT PE fuel for a new SR intake by comparing delta RPM/sec on back-to-back highway runs, but I think the frame/sec-time constant may be shifting at high RPM, and I'm trying to pin down whether what I'm seeing is a software phenomenon or something actually occuring in the engine. (Or a hallucination from breathing too much exhaust.)
TIA for any enlightenment. And yes, this question originates from me burning my own proms.
DrJ
Everthing with in the C3-P4 series of ecms is Time based. Newer stuff has some event based code in it. So if there is anything screwy it's in the software, but that doesn't make any sense to me.
What can happen, is that you can get out of synch with the sampling rate, vs what the sensor is doing. On a v8 you can read the O2 sensor faster then it can react to AFR changes. On a lab grade WB you can see individual cylinders firing, but not on a NB.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2001, 04:14 PM #26
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Camaro_hunter_d:
OK I got the BIN thanks to MIKE. But now what do I have to do to get the "PE" to kick in sooner?. I know I can set the RPMs for it but I want it to go more by the TPS input. I have a tendancy to cruise at 70-80 MPH on the highway so I do not want it kicked in while I am cruising.
How exactly do I get the timing to change to a less retard curve? And advance a little sooner?.
Should be a table PE vs TPS.
Remember more is not always better with timing. It's way to easy to be too rich, with too much timing and be slower then when you started.
------------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-10-2001, 04:09 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Source code
You can develope your own source code. Once you get that far, you are in control of the ecm.....
Even with the aftermarkets your limited to doing what they'll let you. And none of them I know of will let you see the code for their ecms.
It took 5 years to get the pieces, and then 3 months to get it all together, but it can be done.
Took the help of a real guru, but I'm to where my limitation is my imagination.
You guys working with the various masks, should team up and work out the source code for your ecms. There is enough talent here, just need to get organized. Least that would make sense to me.
There is alot of mindless typing, and that gets old fast. But, once your done you got it all.
Wish I knew all the details for getting it done, and could help, but I don't. Just hope this fires a few folks up enough to do it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2001, 08:03 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73:
I have yet to come far enough to understand the assembly language yet, and I'd love to dig into it - I can truely appreciate what you've done with this as I've looked at it and been totally confused. Is it a steep learning curve?
As for a "what-if" .... is it possible to reverse-engineer the BLM code to actually allow a car to tune itself, and re-program an EEPROM as it goes? (Or possibly have a "tune mode" where the ALDL jumper has a resistance across it, and the engine tunes itself?)
Ken
real steep curve,
the newer PCMs have a a bit of auto learn in them.
IMO, it's learn to walk before running.
One thing that strikes me as being odd, is folks are leery of tuning things themselves, but not a care about the ecm/pcm doing it. I'd rather min the ecm control of what's going on. Let it work out the toggling over Stoich., but that's it in my book.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-14-2001, 12:31 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott_92RS:
Would it be possible to get a EPROM that was too large for the current source code in the stock EPROM, put the stock code into it along with other functions.
Yes, it can be done.
I have a C3 ecm running on a 27128 rather then a 2732.
It's lots of work. Rewritting and completely commenting the code takes just short of forever. I've mentioned a group effort to develope the 730 to the level of being source code as a group project but no one seems interested.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-14-2001, 07:48 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DAVECS1:
Grumpy I would be interested in your idea of developng a 730 source code.
Yes, some folks need to get together and do this. The reason for the plural is that it is such a huge project. I've done the ecm I use. I have some other irons in the fire, that I simply must get done. In all honesty there is no need for me to get into doing one for others. But if you can muster some guys that are really really interested in doing something like this, I'd be will to share some snippets of what the final result should look like. I don't know all the answers on how even to do it, but I'm really sure some of the guys here can fill in some of the blanks.
6 guys with software expereince, and perferably knowing the Motorola couls knock this out in 2 months. For one guy it's a years work. I'm just one guy, so you can imagine how much time I have in mine.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-20-2001, 07:46 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Shame to see this one die.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-21-2001, 03:56 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73
Things have evolved since your first CrossFire project. I would think SOMEONE would have tried something. You've paved the way and others have helped refine the means to the end. I just don't think the mainstream group is ready for it yet.
Ken
For years, I was harped at by some knowing fellows to get to the stage of reading code. Luckily I fell into some good info., and was able to do the romless mod in my ecm and then develope the Source Code for it. I begged for a while to get a hand, but there were no takers (of those running the same ecm), so I have months working at it full time to now have actual source code for my ecm. Now after seeing what is there, things are making alot more sense, also I have more room now to add code to this.
There are enough sharp guys here to do it, they just don't realise how important it is to get it done.
With the source code, you basically have the best of the best ecm. You can take advantage of all the millions of dollars GM spent in refining the GM to where it is today.
Just think, with some basics out of the way, folks could take a 8051 and refine it for use with a distributor. With the ability to flash it rather then using chips, it's a step closer to RELIABLE on the fly tuning.
Short story for a long tale
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2002, 02:07 PM #23
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by KAOSRacing
I'll try to get that done this weekend. Is just the hacks all that needs to be "saved" or should I grab the whole site?
Grab it all.
I think in the spiirit of the ecm guys own way for it to be residplayed would be fine with him.
Mirroring while he was with us would have been a different matter.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-13-2002, 03:58 PM #37
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AlexJH
It looks like www.techedge.com.au has one, and it's even been used for disassembling Holden ECMs.
No Linux version though.
It doesn't use the standard Motorola Pnemonics.
If you want a good dissemblier the only answer I know of is Dunfield, and that is by recommendation.
The AU assemblier does work however.
Also, when surfing the net be sure you have you spyware up to date.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-14-2002, 12:08 AM #43
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by junkcltr
A bunch of EEs and SEs are much smarter than I am. Therefore, I rely on there algorithms running the engine for me. Min control is a carb. The Non Volatile memory in ECMs/PCMs keeps growing which means the algorithms are getting more sophisticated. Yes, harder to understand, but I think they do a better job controlling the engine. Anyway, back to the topic. What is the goal here? Generate high level source code or low level? Or just try to strip or add functionality to the existing code any way you can? Kind of like the efi332 project........but hardware is more accessible and cheaper. Just no floating point math.
Cheers,
J
The rub is EE and SE aren't engine tuners and GM codes do contain errors.
Once you get into things, you'll see some strange stuff, ie on the early stuff they did lots of patchs to get things to pass various driving conditons, and emission checks.
Some contain code that doesn't even run,
Old 02-14-2002, 12:12 AM #44
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by junkcltr
I haven't seen that one I don't think. What and where is a 'Dunfield'? What is a 'spyware'?
By the sounds of it Grumpy, it appears that you were thinking all in assembly? Correct?
Thanks,
J
Dunfield Labs make an excellent disassembler.
Spyware is a program to eliminate programs that you down load that phone home to allow someone to remote access your computer.
Ad-ware is one such program
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-14-2002, 07:35 AM #45
Grim Reaper
Moderator
Grim Reaper's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: The Bone Yard
Posts: 10,540
Car: Death Mobile
Engine: 666 c.i.
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy
The rub is EE and SE aren't engine tuners and GM codes do contain errors.
Once you get into things, you'll see some strange stuff, ie on the early stuff they did lots of patchs to get things to pass various driving conditons, and emission checks.
Some contain code that doesn't even run, and tables that are unused.
Bruce is so right. Some of the code can be "streamlined" to reduce the number of operating cycles and thus have the ECM perform quicker. However, sometimes GM used a seemingly useless instruction that is there SPECIFICALLY for "timing events" to ensure the ECM has properly read a sensor and returned a "filtered" variable.
And, as Bruce said, GM has code in there that isn't even working. Highway Mode is a great example of code that GM wrote, implemented yet chose to not "activate". Or, (on SD cars), physically disabled the code requiring a small code change to make it work (Highway Mode Spark Advance is good example of this).
But, as Bruce is suggesting, diving into the code and learning what it's doing sets you up to modify the existing code to do things that GM never intended. Re-writing the 7730 code to properly handle a 2 Bar MAP is entirely feasible once you have developed Source Code and learnt how the code works.
Wouldn't it be great to be able to run a power-adder like a SC or Turbo on a 7730 and the only things you need to do is install a 2 Bar MAP, run a 2 Bar Version of the 7730 AUJP BIN and then just tweak the 2 Bar VE Tables to handle boost conditions?
Or, how about creating a routine to pull a little timing during an up-shift (the first place where detonation often occurs)? How about extending the BLM Table so it handles a 5x5 or 6x6 (or whatever) table instead of the stock 4x4.
Or, maybe you would like to have different data displayed on your ALDL. Modify the source code of Craig's scan tool and you could have a couple of different versions - a full diagnostic ALDL stream to show you EVERYTHING in the RAM, normal and a shortened version for "racing" where the amount of data in minimal so you can actually use the data captured as a means of timing yourself.
The beauty of the 7730 AUJP Bin, is that it only utilizes 58% of the space on the eprom. 42% is BLANK! That is a lot of free room on the AUJP's BIN.
As Bruce said, if you get into the Source Code, you have COMPLETE control of the ECM and you are limited by your own imagination. The problem is, once people start to get into the Source Code, and they start to develop some interesting changes, they start to see Dollar Bills in front of their eyes.
Bruce is the last of a "breed" that is trying to get "hobbiest" to work together for the betterment of all - without trying to make a buck at it. Or worst, do virtually nothing except "pick people's brains", get beta-versions from the people that developed the new Source Code, slam a patent on it and steal it.
Grim Reaper is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-15-2002, 10:58 AM #47
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by junkcltr
..I am not going to let anyone rip them off. I have a lot of sleepless nights working on them. I guess I should jump out of this thread. I am not trying to be a jerk, but you gave me some stuff to think about. Too bad politics crushes creativity sometimes.
Thanks,
J
Wonderful, go ahead and jump ship.
Great to see it's been just a waste of time. You come in and learn what you can then want to leave so that others don't rip you off. Great scott, tell me the difference in what your doing.
Maybe I shouldn't have done Programming 101 and left the world hanging.
Ya that's the spirit just everyone lurk.
Be like DIY where there are so many lurkers nothing gets done anymore. The idea is to give.
Rant Off
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-15-2002, 03:46 PM #49
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HighHopes85
Trying to stay on topic, I have a question for those who have already gained enough knowledge to modify the source code.
If you wanted to (for examples sake) put a line in the middle of the code that lit up an LED on your dash, is it as easy as just adding that code assuming there is space or do you have to readjust every other entry in the code?
Is the source code similar to any Visual Basic code where you can have routines and subroutines, then link them together (this is what it sounds like after reading the info so far). I know it isn't like VB, but there again, just for comparisons sake...
For me to do this, I realized that I first had to have a handle on HEX and the different ways it can be written out, what a mask value is, etc. Now that I can finally go through and make sense of the anht_hac without doubts, I feel like taking the next step. Thanks, -Matt-
If you car say had a shift light, or you wanted to turn on the SES, yes. You could use the Charcoal Canister Purge output to run some other light.
Once you have source code, as long as you have an input and output to use you can add anything.
If there is an unused input you cold use that to data log something like a WB.
Launch assist, OK
two stag rpm limiters
Anti theft
valet mode
just a few key stockes away
Expanded tables
Add tables
Deleted tables,
Quick reply to this message
Old 02-19-2002, 05:04 PM #61
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost
Awesome information, thanks. Now if only I could find an assembly debuger for the source code . My calculator has a compiler that runs in dos and it tells you where there is a problem. What do you think I should remove from my 4k bin to make room for custom code? I'm scrapping EGR, scrapping the air diverter solinoid, and want room for a shift light and fan controls. I'm also getting rid of a/c this summer but how much room does the a/c code actually take up?
Any ideas would be appreciated.
If your working on the 8746, or some C3, some of the code is on the printed Circuit Board ROM. So you have to read that also.
Ludis has some ROM stuff that's he's found posted on his site, and explains how to do it.
With a C3 to develope your own code, means eleiiminating code to make room for your own.
On the 148 I'm working on the code has been removed from the ROM, and incorporated into a larger eprom. So now instead of a 2732 I use a 27128, and about 1/4 of that is empty so I have tons of room to work in.
There is some PID for IAC for A/C on.
There is room to clear out with removing the EGR, and don't forget the CCP.
My original push on you guys doing this was ref the P4 ecms that use a memcal, those already have all the code on them.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-17-2002, 03:36 PM #65
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by afgun
The emulator that's being discussed is an emulator for the PROM itself - ie you plug a programmable device into the ECM and can update it on-the-fly, though most people have not had luck doing it while the engine is actually running.
The one word you didn't mention is cheap.
Lots of $2-5K ones that will.
Dual SCRAM, and a processor to synch things.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-22-2002, 05:19 PM #68
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DAVECS1
I may be guilty of lurking, but not on purpose. My concern is the spread of misinformation through ignorance. I have seen some rampant cases on this board. Being an engineer I have access to tools that have let me ramble my way around in the sorce code and program files, but I have yet to make a definitive yes or no on many things because of my trile and error methods. The best I have been able to do so far is correct and modify ECU files for winbin, so people who are using these files blindly will have a better chance at not screwing up there cars. I think we need to create a controlled thirdgen.org library so those who know what they are doing can upload realiable knowledge that beginners can use without fear of authenticity. I would be happyto help proof the uploads as well as include al of my own programming and files. Sorry if I got to off the subject, but this lurking thing got me thinking and I feel somewhat guilty. Thank you for all the help guys.
That's the point of my Final Answer postings.
The trouble with too easy to access info is that it kind of breeds the too lazy to do more then hit reply crowd.
If you were to look at the noise to info., ratio from when the list went from private to public, and then follow it's history to date, it's readily apparent what's going on, and some of it aint too good.
What we need are people to participate in developing new stuff.
There are just a few guys that really understand code, and their time would be best spent hand holding others thru that. The math and names are quote unquote known, and we need to go where no man has gone. Rehashing stuff is just rehashing. Folks will quick enough figure out what the real truths are as they actually spend time tuning, and find out how personal of thing tuning is, er can be.
Just my 2 cents
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-23-2002, 10:27 PM #70
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DAVECS1
I see your point grumpy and that my be the price that has to be paid in order for use to expand the hobby.
My main problem with using or working on the gm p4 series ecms is the fact that it all boils down to two low side drivers for the injectors. To gain control of the system maybe it would be in our best interest to either figure out how to add two to six more drivers or move on to the LS1 based ECMs. The LS1 ECMs are fully sequential leading me to believe they contain more drivers for the injectors. I have not personally hacked one yet so I cannot confirm this.
I've run my car in SEFI and batch.
It runs best in batch.
Feature Creep doesn't mean better.
Need to start wtih the basics and build from there.
Most all the P4 use one driver, the reason for two leads is redundancy and trace loading in the ecm.
BTW, it's more then just slightly better in batch mode.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-24-2002, 09:14 AM #72
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Well were all intitled to our opinions.
But the GNs had SEFI back in 87 with the 148 and that was a C3 ecm. Using the SEFI seems to have let them clean things up enough to get bu without an Air Pump.
The latest GMs are all suffering from the same error as the mini rams, but just not quiet as bad, so they have to use the SEFI to trim out the injectors for emission reasons (I might be wrong here, but I doubt it).
The GNs were SEFI, and defaulted to Batch when the cam senosr died, so I do about the same thing.
So rather then going from batch to sefi I went SEFI to batch.
Using Peak and Holds, I'm running 55#/hr Injectors, and it looks like I can still run in batch mode with 72s, which is what I want to do next.
With 55s I idle better then a stocker, and I can see no reason the 72 wouldn't either. In the case of a v8 the 72s would put you at well over 1,000 HP. If your running over a 1,000 HP then the SEFI might really be a help, or if you want to run a poorly designed manifold.
Manifolds are the key now, since the manufacturers are stuck in the 80s manifld technology, and GM hasn't gotten wind yet of what they need to do with the new ones yet.
Don't mean to sound arrogant, just they way I type.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-24-2002, 01:39 PM #74
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DAVECS1
Wow! That is quite a feat. I have not looked at the GN ECM in depth,but it is my guess that if you wanted to run 72 you solder in some silver fly wires that will carry the load better than the trace or traces as the case may be. The only problem I see in doing this is this may slightly change the output of the driver.
After studying some different fuel injection methods last night. I can see why the batch firing may give better results. To put it simply batch fire will mimic a well tuned carbuerator that can calibrate itself on the fly.
I look at it this way. Take for example you run two tpi ecms and one batch fires the odd cylinders and the other batch fires the even cylinders. Now you have effectively gained some headroom on your driver by reducing its load. Next you have increased the speed of your ecm response. Hopefully allowing you to bring timing and RPMs up and now you can better monitor your engine.
Your closed lood adjustments will be more resolute as it corrects each bank and not an overall reading.
The traces are fine, if you look at the TBI computers that have an even higher current load, they are the same.
Me thinks your over thinking things.
The advantage on batch over SEFI is firing the injectors twice as often, which get you your better atomization. Atomization is better then vaporization in so far as it displaces less O2 from the air.
The closed loop corrections are about meaningless is some reguards since the ecm just toggles over 14.7 to average that AFR.
Trouble with 2 ecms is that thay can't share sensors, they use pull up resistors, and doubling the load fubar's them.
Just getting the code to use a full time baro, and then use the MAT as a MAT would do wonders for the timing and fuel control.
Toss in a 2-3 bar code change and things would be really neat.
The problems with big injectors are all at idle. you simply run out of time. All the injectors start getting flakey at 1 msec operating times.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-12-2002, 03:40 PM #81
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
So why did GM use temp enrichment all the way up into the operating temps?
To make the code as versatile as possible. Often they used just chunks of code and dirived a calibration from that. Then the drivibility guys went out and drove the cars to see what they needed to make them drivibile. Then they EPA tested the cars, and they went back out to the field. Then depending on the repatching retested by the EPA. Remember most all the 3rd gen software is the better part of 15 years old now. They also test the cars in Alaska, and the Mojave desert. While you might not need the code in any reasonable situation, the code was tested to be reliable everywhere.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2003, 07:37 AM #90
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Just as an update.
My GN is now running on *my* Source Code. My meaning I had alot of help from a friend of mine. It is now a 3 Bar MAP system, instead of MAF, and has all the little tuning tables, that I consider necessary. There were some hiccups, and alot of time went into tuning, but the results are 10x more then I expected. The car is just incredible..
I'm also working on doing the same thing code wise with another ecm. Again, have had help. But, doing alot more of it myself this time. Well at least so far.
While tuning is grand, it's a whole new level when you have the code that you want doing what you want when you want it.
ie I just use the IAC for the choke function and idle speed control. No Throttle follower.
No routines running in the background working against me.
Full Open loop, the code ain't even there. And using the WB have the engine running at all the AFR/VE/PRM levels that makes the engine happiest.
No mystery code looking for the HU running.
etc, etc, etc, etc,
A team of guys should be able to knock something like this out in just a couple months, and with enough players and organization maybe weeks. Dunno about ya'll but having a junkyard ecm that is some ways better then a $2K+ aftermarket ecms is just kinda exciting to me.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-19-2003, 06:36 PM #92
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Quick_Trans_Am
ok guys I'm new to all this stuff, but highly interested... would someone please inform me what the "source code" and all this other stuff is? It's all greek to me... If someone would take the time that is, I'd appreciate it, and be willing to work with people on developing it.
The ecm uses a .bin file to get some if not all the instructions on what to do. On the ecms that use a memcal, all the code is on the memcal.
Source code is in machine and human language so that you can read and understand what the code is actually doing.
A sample of source code lookes like this,
;==============================
; POWER UP OR RESET INITIALIZATION =
;==============================
INIT LDS #STKPTR ; INITIALIZE STACK POINTER
JSR ECUDELAY ; TURN OFF MALF LIGHT
LDX #$000A ; RAM IS OK (JSR CHECKS RAM)
STX ECUCR
LDX #ECU7
The ; seperates the human stuff from the processor stuff. So the ecm reads what's on the left hand side, and the human can read what's on the right hand side. Once you have the code so that it assembles, and is fully commented you can edit and change what the code actually does. ie like the oem ecm controls when the A/C is enabled, with your own patch you can say use that some output to turn on an extra injector, or cooling devise for an intercooler, water injection, or change the TCC code so that the TCC acts like a 5 th speed.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-19-2003, 06:39 PM #93
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
If you can get a disassembly of what ever ecm you want to work on it will have pointers in it to various spots in the Table Switch, and settings part of the code. Going thru and listing all the corresponding locations with names, tells you what is going on in each routine in the code, and makes life alot easier. Especially if you have some partcially commented hacs and can compare notes.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2003, 09:34 AM #95
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JP84Z430HP
I'm thinking about a way to put aside the MAF vs. MAP debate aside, such as using both to check each other.
I and others have done it, but if you want, feel free to do it.
Most others went the 165-730 swap, and I went with changing the code, and used EVERYTHING else intact. I in this case meaning with help.
Building an ecm bench first would be an excellent first step. Might be interesting to see what a stock 165 does on the bench. To date I don't know of anyone that's done that.
But, if you get involved in the MAF, MAP debate, be ready for lots of name calling, and misquotes. Even when you objectively point out the system differences, you'll get labeled.
The GM code runs in a bunch of routines, and loops, it can be very time consuming to figure out what's really going on.
Having Source Code is a good thing. Once you get to that stage the world is your's.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------------
Old 09-10-2001, 10:43 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by John Millican:
I currently have my TCC lock/unlock speed(low gears) set to 42/40 mph.
I have the TCC lock/unlock speed (not low gears) set to 42/40 mph.
I have the TCC unlock prevention speed threshold set to 115 mph.
Is this the best combo for a street/strip car?
That's not the way I'd do it.
But, we're getting into tranny calibrations, also. For the way I have things set up, my 3rd gear TCC apply speed is 75, then converter lock in 4th at 47.
This is what works for me. With it set like this the tranny acts more like a true 5 spd. Min., the TCC appling and releasing all time seems to be a good thing to my way of thinking.
Only thur testing will you get what really makes the engine and you happy..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-09-2001, 05:37 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by V8Astro Captain:
Ok, I see that I need this and that file for converting and editing the programming on the chip. But what I haven't found yet is how to actually get the info from the chip to my computer.
Do I take the chip out and plug it into...well..what do I plug it into?
I got an ECM pn 1227747 out of a fullsize pickup. It has the two separate chips in it. Do I re-use the chip or is it one time-write?
The large chip is the prom.
Your prom burner is what the prom will fit into to be read. But you have to take it out of the carrier first. Over at GNType.org they have a little article on how to do that. The plastic holders are discontinued so better get some spares for the junkyard.
Some of the oem chips can be a bear to erase again good idea to get a couple spares
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Old 09-12-2001, 08:34 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I need to pass inspection in a couple days and I was told that it's better to run rich than lean. Or is it best to run in closed loop at BLM 128? Is it a good idea to have the car run in open loop for only 15 seconds after a warm start or is it best to just leave it at 30, what kind of harm can be done? I have 3.73 gears and my speedo hasn't been corrected, is this going to hurt or help my emissions when they do the 40mph run on the rollers?
Thanks in advance
Fresh oil,
clean filters.
Fuel additive.
Run hot, 190 thermostat.
BLs at 128
not too much timing
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2001, 01:48 PM #20
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
All I did was go back through, didn't change anything and the car passed. The engine temp was down to 210 compared to 240 the day before. My NOx fumes were 960, 10 more and the car would be sitting in a barn for a good 6 months!
I'm still kind of pissed off that I can't change the closed loop AFR.
I looked up the hex location and that number isn't part of the actual eprom. It's part of the built on rom which I can't change.
Does anybody have any ideas? I've been looking through the 8746 hack document and editing my definition file but this AFR is unkown and whenever I DO find an AFR it's like 1.8 and I have a hard time believing the AFR is 1.8:1 . I know that some values need to be converted but I tried doing the 100/255 or something on that line (in some programming guide) and that didn't come out to anything even close to a normal AFR!!
Please help a guy out with this one or I'm going to run over my ecm and go to a 7747!
Rarely is there a real reason to change the idle low cruise AFRs, in closed loop. You have to remember the ecms AVERAGES 14.7, so while you might want 15.1 during this toggling across stoi, you might go too lean, and then have a lope at idle and ocassional stalling on decleration.
If you want to run other the 14.7 at idle I'd suggest you try going Open/loop at idle.
It's kind of hard to appreciate how much goes into the C/L function. If you can watch a WB O2 sensor at idle on a scope you'd see how much they toggle things.
-------------------------
Old 09-15-2001, 08:20 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Okay, I finally got a chance to hookup my diacom to the suburban. I really like the fast update speed, I want to swap that ecm into my 91. I looked at the injectors and the engine bay and I can't find any obvious difference in the injectors, sensors, and the such except...the PCM trans control and maybe anti-lock brake control. Does anybody think it would be hard to do this ecm swap?
I'm going to try and get a print out on the PCM wires and look at how many I have and how many I would need to add. Would I NEED to have a 4L60e or could I use my 4L60? The injectors and TB unit look exactly the same. The only obvious difference on the intake is the absence of the TV cable for obvious reasons. Any info would be really helpful.
Using an ecm from a 4,500 lb vehicle in a 3500 pound car, is no easy feat. On the C3 series like the 747, it's a much coarser calibration so it's more forgiving. Doing it right would seem to me defeating all the tranny functions, not just disabling the malfunction flags. Unless your into reverse engineering the code that's an awful lot of work.
If you want just about real time updating on a hac'd ecm the look up the info on Lockers and the 747. Uses the edge card connector in the ecm as it's data source.
The fast update stuff does look cool, but it's not that much of a big deal in tuning.
Old 02-13-2002, 04:06 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost
http://www.chuengineering.com/
Is this what you're talking about with the direct interfacing?
I'm still interested in a faster baud speed for data capture and if/when my current tranny goes I'm going to find myself a 4L60e and the 95 tbi ecm. I don't think it would be much of a problem considering tunercat already has a tdf file for it and you could argue that tuning an ecm from a 3500 car and using it in a 3000 car is just as much of an incrimental difference as going from 4500 to 3500. A ratio of .77 compared to .85, doesn't look like that big of a problem. I have to buy that tdf file from tunercat and see what I can do with it in the truck. If it looks good then this might be an alternative to getting an expensive tranny control module. I'd love to adjust shift points, have fast aldl stream updates, and other options that would require extensive source code modification to the 8746 ecm.
well make up your mind, changing trannies changes the whole equation.
Look at the pinout of the PCM you want to use, then get back to me. I'm not going to lead you around point by point thru every detail. Like I said changing from That Truck To That Car is no easy feat.
Application does play a role in what your doing, why do you think GM has so many different ecms and pcms?.
Now after you do some study of the pinouts, get back to me about how much effort this all is going to be, and make up your mind about what tranny you want to use.
Dancing around when asking guestions doesn't get anyone anywhere.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-17-2001, 09:55 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by davidjon_99:
I had an interesting discussion with someone this weekend about whether reprogramming the prom can really help a stock engine (one without any performace mods) run better. I think reprogramming for a stock engine can help performance. This other person feels that the manufacturer (GM) had the prom setup from the factory with the best performance a stock engine could produce.
Any comments?
An oem prom is designed for the most common denominator. If you, never maintain your car, run garbage for gas, and have no want for CORRECT is then the oem chip is fine. They are a miracle of engineering, but just have to work well on anything that comes down the assembly line, and gets anything in the way of maintance.
You can't begin to appreciate what a CORRECT chip means, till you've been there. If you like an engine tuned to the way you drive.
Some *tuners* are just happy with the way the chips come, me, I like them only after a getting them dialed in to the way I like.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-16-2001, 08:01 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by formula5:
I just bought a 87 tpi harness and ecm+prom for $15 at the boneyard.Right now I have the lathargic 85 ecm and prom.What will I have to do to convert my 85 harness to an 87 ecm?I can change the harness but a conversion would be a little less work.The 85 and 87 harness apears to be the same, cold start injector,ac,iac etc.The 87 harness did'nt seem to have a oil pressure fuel pump cut off and the dist clip is different.
For all the work to do that, you might consider just going ahead and switching to the 90-92 MAP system. In the above URL, they have a 165 to 730 adapter (or used to), and then you could really be *state of the art*. There is lots of info archived on this.
---------------------------------
Old 09-17-2001, 12:36 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by z28dan:
After looking over my datalogs, I noticed a inconsistent knock appearing. It's not at any specific RPM or load. I am not sure how to tune for something like this, I normally look for patterns. One thing in can think of is that my exhaust is hitting something possible the floor board under hard acceleration. Could the knock sensor mistake this noise as knock? I do not believe that my knock sensor is over sensitive, it's never been changed out.
Any ideas?
The GM *knock detector* is an acoustic devise, it just listens for a particular noise, it doesn't care what the source is.
Exhaust rattles, Altern Bearings, serpentin belts can all trigger one.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Old 09-12-2001, 09:18 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Has anyone ever tried using one of those air/fuel ratio guages?
Once you have your car tuned correctedly thye can be a course indication of what you have AFR wise.
Tuning to a particulat O2 voltage is folly. The oem ones are sensitive to exhaust back pressure, and EGT.
A Wide Band O2 sensor is a different beast, and comps for temp, and is barely effected by backpressure.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-18-2001, 12:00 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 86Red4+3:
First off, your response in the other thread was very helpful. I was making the whole thing more difficult that it is. E6 detected lock-in tonight using the default 8192 baud rate. Now, why was I even messing around with the 160 baud stuff, anyway? Maybe by timing the first transmission just right, the program can lock itself in without hitting the "1" key? Or is that being too lazy?
So, here's another report that ECMscan works fine at least with the '86 Y body ECM ($32).
The '86 Y body ALDL has no pin M - everything is done through pin E. Doesn't affect anything, same pin functions just in a different location.
Mode 4 seems similar to mode 3 in that contents of any 8 bytes of ram can be read. What I don't understand right now is what the control words are all about. Are these the key to the power of this mode?
FWIW, here's what the $32 BUA disassembly has to say:
;MODE 4 WILL MODIFY ECM OPERATION
;& XMIT THE CONTENTS OF RAM,
;(0 *> 8 LOC'S) AS REQUESTED
;
;ALDL DEV MUST REQUEST MODE 4 BY
;XMITING THE FOLLOWING MSG TO
;THE ECM:
;
;MSG ID = 0x80
;MSG LEN 2n+1+10+85 = 0xnn
;MODE = 0x04
;CNTL WD 1 = 0xcc
;.
;.
;CNTL WD 10 = 0xcc
;ADD 1 MSB = 0xaa
;ADD 1 LSB = 0xaa
;.
;.
;ADD N MSB = 0xaa
;ADD N LSB = 0xaa
;CKSUM = 0xcc
;
;THE ECM WILL RESPOND WITH:
;
;MSG ID = 0x80
;MSG LEN n+1+85 = 0xnn
;MODE = 0x04
;ADD CONT = 0xdd
;.
;.
;ADD CONT = 0xdd
;CKSUM = 0xcc
Mode 4 is a carry over from the HUD and factory calibration team access to the ecm.
Not a HUD as you might be thinking of, just a box of stuff that sits on the dash. Somehow and emulator is tied into the setup, and couple kluge boxes. Used hand soldered memcals, and was rather prehistoric looking.
And some of them used an edge board connector to access the ecm.
------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-18-2001, 10:22 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by KeithA:
According to TPIS a stock MAF flows 529 CFM while a fully modified MAF flows 750 CFM. The MAF scalar tables seem to be linear in nature so is it reasonable to adjust those tables "up" the 40+% (to the max 255 value)in a linear way? It seems that the ECM needs accurate air flow rates to determine the correct injector PW. I appologize if this has been addressed before because I missed it.
Short answer is no.
If you look at table 6 it's already maxed out calibration wise.
There just is no way to get around the down sides of a MAF system, readily. If your needing serious air flow then a SD system is the only answer.
Once you remove the screen you've also really fubar'd the calibration, which has to be done to get some serious air thru the system.
Best way answer is running the Australian 808 code and going MAF, but you have to run the australian diagnostics. Best answer is going with a 730.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-19-2001, 01:47 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Yelofvr:
I am in the process of tuning in my VE tables for my 7730ecm speed density system and have made very good progress and improvements so far. My question is that when I make constant load accelleration runs, the INT value I get in first gear is different than the INT value I get in 2nd gear??? My MAP values are identical in both gears, exact same rpm, and in 1st gear my INT=128 and in 2nd gear, BLM=137???? This seems very funny to me, the only difference I can see is a different rate of acceleration. Anyone seen this??? Should I tune in my VE for 1st gear or second???
Changing the gearing changes the torque multipication, and thus the engine load.
Set the VE tables for the gear you normally drive in, ie in an auto 4th (or high).
While 128 is nice, it's not going to be there all the time.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2001, 09:51 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BLACK Z:
I swapped out the auto for a 5 speed and I would like to switch to a 5 speed chip but the gm list 2 chips for the m39 5 speed and 2 for the mc4 5 speed, what are the diffrences? they are all for the same model computer, the tranny from my car is from a 88 iroc, I guess the auto chip is looking for a vss whitch the 5 speed car does not have in the tranny. alll of these chips are for the 86 z with the h code (LG4) What is the diffrence? will any of these chips work? is one better then the other? thanks
The difference from auto to man is *primarily* IAC movements
The Bins at DIY are EFI related,
My best luck with the CCC has always been to use the chip ecm carb cals from the ZZZ kit. But, I think that is auto only.
Reading Doug Roe's Q Jet book would be an excellent start.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-19-2001, 07:27 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by davidjon_99:
Stupid question...Do you unhook your battery's negative terminal when you replace the memcal?
From what I've read, during my quest for the perfect program (which I'm sure never exists) I'll be burning a lot of chips and replacing them pretty often. It sure is a pain to reprogram the memory in my stereo everytime I unhook the battery.
Every manual I've seen says to remove the cable fro the battery's negative terminal before doing anything to the ECU.
Your thoughts?
I spliced into the orange wire right at the ecm and hide a switch for it, so now I have a way to clear the ecms memory, and an antitheft devise
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-18-2001, 10:42 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by formula5:
First I have the post down further on this board reguarding a 165 ecm swap.I read the very helpful site for that but have one more question.Is there any sensors the 87 tpi has that the 85 does not(other than mas burn off relay?).Second is would an 87 vette chip work for my 87 ecm and tpi.If yes then what effects will the 3:08 gear raio inside the chip effect if I have 3:42?The dealer did need the gear ratio for the correct prom.What programing advantages does the vette chip have over an 87 formula 350 chip(fuel,spark tables).If I used 19 lb injectors at 50 psi would'nt that make them flow around 24 lb hr.My pump would handle 50 psi,I'm sure.I ended up buying both chips for $30 each from gm through my friend.
When you crank the pressure up the volume goes down that a pump can deliver, takes a heathy pump to run at 50 PSI.
There are difference vette to f body
rear end ratio affects the timing curve.
For a MAF system the only answer is the 89 code and edit to work.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-21-2001, 08:09 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Omar:
I did an archive search of this, and I couldnt find enough info...so please forgive me if this has been covered.
If I take an 89 305TPI A4 prom, and modify it with a ZIF and ARAP bin, will the limp mode, ESC, etc, still work on my 89 350TPI A4?
Always better to use a memcal from as close as possible relative to what your actually working on. Some soft failure modes won't even get you out of a lane of traffic, from miss matching stuff. You have to think about worse conditions for failures that put you in failure modes.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-07-2001, 12:23 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Well here is the thing. Mark Romans whom some of you may know from the GMECM list, flowed a stock 89 airbox at 588 CFM and a ported MAF like mine at 750 CFM. So it seems that the airbox itself is the real restriciton. A 90 to 96 Vette airbox is much better but it won't my car. My radiator is striaght up and down and the later Vettes have a steep rake.
Not always about flow, most of it's about response to chang of flow that counts.
I have my pre turbo tract down to about 16" and it's all 4" diameter. Makes all the difference. I'm running a 60 series turbo, and it spools much faster then a stock lil one. ya, I gotta a ton of chip work in it, but relocated the MAF, and the pre T stuff have really woken things up.
And for every 1% reduction in intact resistance is 2% HP.
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-24-2001, 11:30 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by blowen90ta:
my question is, i think wouldent the tps signal sent to the computer be way off with the addition of one of these because of the much larger amount of air passing thru at the same position.therby causing the need for more fuel necessary ?it would also effect anything else that uses the tps senser to ajust paramiters it would seem.would the easy answer be to reburn the chip with a different injecter constant? this question arrises because it seems that the consenses is that a larger tb will help airflow even in my supercharged application. anyone have any reason not to install a 58mm tb?
thanks
pete
To put a large TB on a stock engine is folly. You want some *ram* effect from the air velocity. It's not a case of bigger being better. Now if you engine noticeably makes more HP then it will need a given increase in air flow at a given throttle opening.
In S/C, T/C applications when in *boost* you'd have to have a miserable manifold to need to use butterfly diameter to balance out the airflow. There are lots of Turbo Buicks making 2-3x the stock HP and still use the stock throttle body.
If this is a street car, then another consideration is what the car will drive like when not in boost. WOT and in serious S/C T/C is something that you just can't use really often in metropolitian areas ...
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-24-2001, 11:33 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
because it seems that the consenses is that a larger tb will help airflow even in my supercharged application. anyone have any reason not to install a 58mm tb?
Have you ever heard of what a camel is?.
A horse designed by committee.
Point being anything designed by a *group* effort, can really wind up *rather odd*.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-24-2001, 05:53 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by blowen90ta:
thanks grumpy--i was of the same train of thought-that a supercharged app would not need a bigger tb(the only reason i was going to install one was because in polishing my intake seems that a billet holly would look great upfront). i have been burning chips since only this spring and seem to have made great strides in compensating for the changes i had already made ie; supercharger,afr heads,headers'30lb injecters,edelbrock manifold and asm ltr's,
after lots of reading,and compiling a big book of information.by scanning my car and burning over 100 chips to get where i am at today.I DONT WANT TO START OVER.because of changing somthing that will provide little or no gain and just throw off the computers data.
so it looks like if anything i'll go with a 52mm and hope a small injecter constant change will keep things close.
Your ignoreing the mechanics of things.
If you think about the injector constant thing you'll see what I mean. The TB will allow faster air flow changes at lower throttle openings, change the injector constatnt to be right there an that will be the opposite of what you want at WOT. Just because you add a larger TB doesn't mean the engine will use it. Lots of issues. I know lots of cases of cars slowing down when going to a hiflow TB.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-18-2001, 10:35 PM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
165 Guys Unit
Why not get together, and work out using the 808 code to convert to SD?.
If someone rocks *Moates* boat to do diagnostics for it, it would be a great boost.
Be interesting to see how close you could get to how a 730 runs.
the 808 code has alot of room for adding patches down the read, much simplier code then the US stuff, and there is a hac available for it. Well, let me say the locations are known
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-19-2001, 10:16 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomcat:
Sounds like a great idea Bruce the only major mod that needs to be done is incorporate the 165's 8192 baud rate into the code and get craigs software to read it.
I am currently trying to learn enough about disassembly to add code to my 808 that I have running my Pontiac.
Looking at the spare inputs it should be possible to incorporate the DIY WB input into it for datalogging ?
I know this sounds hard for most of us but there are people around with the knowledge that could lead a few of the willing learners through the process.
160 baud works just fine, you don't have to get crazy to do something. It's wanting all the lastest bobbles that kills getting anything done.
KISS.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-19-2001, 10:18 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Sarkee:
Let me see if I can figure out all the misspellings here...
You're proposing running the 808 code on a 7165 with a MAP setup instead of MAF???
What's the 808 code from???
The 808 is an australian version on the 165. Yes, it is MAP rather then MAF.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-19-2001, 10:21 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg '85 T/A:
Hmmmm . . . sounds like a Haltech with knock sensor and emissions stuff. Is the machine language the same between the '165s and '730s? There must be some way to rearrange the I/O addressing and transpose the actual program.
No the Haltech code is nothing like the 808. Thou you could prune down the 808 stuff if someone wanted to make a source code for it.
Why worry about the 730?.
If you want to run a 730, then run it. Crossing over code between ecms is a huge job, not to mention you'd have to cut down the 730 code to under 128K.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-19-2001, 10:30 AM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg '85 T/A:
Someone needs to make a piggy-back processor that could plug into the PROM's socket. Or how about a "from scratch" '730 PCB that has the wiring for the two-connector '165 config? I think there will be a good market for a plug 'n play replacement (emmissions-legal) for the MAF system. These guys used(?) to make and interface adapter to go from MAF to SD:
http://hotrodlane.cc
Several guys have offered the 730 to 165 conversion, trouble is no one wants to pay for them. That URL is dead from here, BTW.
I don't understand what a second processor is going to do. There is one already.
If someone was to source code the 165/730, and public domain it, then you could rework things exactly as you want, but that seems to be alot more work then folks want to do, and those that have source coded a ecm, have so much time effort and energy, there is no real reason for them to give away 9 months work. It wouldn't be that big off gig for 5-10 to do, but by yourself, it's a PITA.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-19-2001, 01:51 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
This is a great Idea and with Craig able to get a scanner that will work I think its very possible. All that is needed would be the pin out for the MAP sensor, where it would go and anything else that would need to change. I wish I would have thought about this before going to the 730ecm(probly still would have went to it anyways).
Brendan
DIY-EFI.ORG has about all the wiring diagrams you could ever need at incoming.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-20-2001, 05:41 PM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by kevinc:
Commented hac of ASBX found at:
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/disasm.html
Don't know as yet if it's TPI or TBI...update coming...
That's what's called being disassemblied.
Commented is where eash item is discribed, all the way from beginning to end. Even if you have a **doc** showing say Lean Cruise AFR, doesn't mean it's acutally supported in code. The code in the C3 and P4 was patched as needed to get the cars drivibile, and to pass emissions, so there are some oddities.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-20-2001, 07:45 PM #19
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by kevinc:
Yeah yeah, sorry about the confusion...I typed before I looked. As mentioned above it's only a disassembly, not commented.
Is there a commented hac out there anywhere? Is there a BCC for a V8 TPI application on the 808?
I've been digging thru diy-efi.org and searching the engines, will post if I find anything.
The ASBX is a v8 application.
Try programming 808, I posted the calibration end of things about 2 years ago.
It shows a comparo of several applications and how the valies change.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-24-2001, 07:57 PM #31
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by hectorsn:
I can help out with whatever I can. I am no hacker but I have been learning quickly. I would write you but you don't have your e-mail visible. I have a friend with a 87 Vette that might be willing to be a guinea pig. I am also building up an ecm test bench. Send me some mail. I am going with a 730 for my application but if I can help with this I figure I could do some things to the 730 too. Another thing, if going through the hassle of adapting a 808 code to 165 to overcome the MAF, why not try to make a translator too. Of course the map sensor cost and plumbing would be a whole lot cheaper and easier but some folks are rather attached to their MAFs. One last thing, the ASBX is DIS? Is that why the reference angle has to be changed?
Making a translator is no minor project. The ouput of the MAFs aren't perfectly linear. Getting one to translate to another is a PIC or similiar operation. It's no where near as easy as it would seem.
Other issues like 20% TPS is 70% of the cross sectional area.
If you want:
install a late MAF in series with the oem one. Logg the two, design a PIC to handle the conversion, then you have to experiment at WOT to get the math right for it to read the higher frequencies. It's not a simple divide by ten operation where talking about here.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2002, 11:19 PM #35
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AlexJH
MAP sensor... does anyone know a part number for the sensor that the 808 expects?
Knock sensor... I'm assuming since the memcal handles this stuff it should work ok. I want to be really careful with this since this is my daily driver.
87-91 GM TBI Pickups, 87-91 V6 Astrovans, TBI F Bodies, 90-92 TPIs.
K/S stuff is all the same. Just use a 165's memcal, and the corresponding sensor.
The difference from the 165 to 808 is that the 165 has the high speed chip for the faster ALDL.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-25-2001, 03:13 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by tpi_roc:
I was wondering if the timing curve in a prom for 3.42's would be more aggresive than the one in a prom for 3.73's, or is it visa versa?
I went from 3.42's to 3.73's and I ping now. But other things have changed also.
Thanks
3.4s to 3.7s will allow for a more agressive curve, but the same WOT timing. Unless you using a VSS timing correction, then there might be some room to play around.
------------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-26-2001, 11:41 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Theroff:
I am fairly new to this chip burning. Is there a difference between eprom 2732 and 2732A? That is besides the burning voltages. Will the As work in the 1226870 ECM which takes the 2732? Are there any other differences? Thank you for the help guys.
Ryan
2732
2732A
2732C
2732G
bottom line, if they program they will work.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Old 09-26-2001, 08:20 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by NightHawk:
I own an '84 TA 4bbl HO. I'm planning on replacing the 305 with a '91/2's 350. I'm going to get a chip to compensate for mixture and the like. I'm just wondering how much this might run me? Thanks for any replies.
The only chip you'll ever need with the CCC is the one offered with the ZZZ engine swap.
BUT, you'll need to read, and memorise Doug Roe's Q-Jet Book.
--------------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2001, 07:32 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brent:
As we all know, performance/HP is the bottom line. A reading on a gauge does not equate to max performance. I would like to hear from those that use a WB O2.
How does the WB O2 enhance the tuning process?
Its very clear that we should start rich in our calibrations and tune towards max mph/hp. Where does the WB come into play in this senario? In my mind its clear that as you descend from a very rich condition you will approach a point where the engine makes max power. Any leaner and performance drops off. Where in this tuning process do I use the WB O2?
Assume we have observed the plugs and are not in detonation.
I'd gotten my car running close to right with reading the plugs.
I then have a section of road that I can use for testing. With my VSS display I can tell if my *trap speeds* are going up or down per a given pass.
So make a pass and try richer.
The neat part part was that in just a few passes I could:
a) tell where I was to start.
b) how much of change was needed to make a noticeable change.
c) was able to actually comfirm my correction was rich or lean, and how much so.
In four short passes, the other day I was able to do what normally would take a whole evening at the drags, and found out what my engine liked. Now, I can go thru and map out more of the calibration, since it's a WB I can set say lean cruise to 16.1:1 or 16.7:1 with out a bunch of plug readings.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2001, 03:22 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Momar:
I was reading that someone (I dont remember who) said that their temp origionally ran in the 180-190 degree range. They said that they took off their air pump and it now runs in the 220-240 degree range. I have not programmed any chips yet(plan on doing so in the future after learning a little more and getting the money) but I was wondering if their is some kind of variables in the chip that could fix this problem or if it was totaly unrelated and could have just been a coincidence. The reason I wondered is because I live in Decatur, Illinois. They dont check us for emmissions. I was wondering if taking the air pump off would cause problems with running hot or if it could be prevented. Sorry about the long message but I just really wanted to know about this before I screw something up. Thanks for your help.
Disabling any emissions equipment is still a federal crime. From what I know the guys around here just do chips for off roads purposes.
During warm up the airpump discharges air pre O2 sensor. Once warm the disharge place is post O2 sensor. So the ecm never really know what the air pump statuse is.
The change in operating temp., dooesn't make any sense, if things were operating properly. If the diverter valve was stuck, and the air was going in pre O2, and then removing it just corrected things, and there was another problem.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2001, 01:36 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I was just thinking about this the other day when I had a post about WOT AFRs.
I thought that the ecm went into open loop because it goes right to 128 BLM when you smash the pedal. If it goes to 128 directly than what good is the o2 sensor? Does the integrator still move around under PE mode?
Please help me understand this because I'm about to hit my head really hard against my keyboard (quiz today and bad head cold).
The O2 is only used in closed loop. It is what closes the loop, meaning the ecm is not only figuring what it thinks things are but it has FEEDBACK, this feedback to what it is doing is being closed loop.
WOT/PE, is a special condition, it just ignores the O2 and goes to a set of defined AFRs. Another special condition is accleration enrichment.
Most scanners just display an *inidicated* closed loop, since it's in closed loop, and is just a special condition. Different programs/ecms will vary on how the scanner sees things.
When in full closed loop, the ecm does not try to maintain a 14.7:1 AFR. It deliberately toggles across that point to keep the converter working, and min emissions. So it AVERAGES a 14.7. That's why the swings across Stoi., vary so much.
Also, some programs go to a rich BL correction if present, meaning some ecms read 128, and some might read say 135 at WOT.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2001, 09:10 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Okay so how does the ecm know that it's giving a richer AFR under WOT? How the heck does it know without using the o2 sensor for feedback? Am I right that the ecm goes into open loop under WOT?
The ecm doesn't know or care what the O2 voltage is at WOT.
Like I said WOT, and AE are special conditions, where the O2 is ignored, thou in some calibrations a corrected BL is used.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2001, 09:13 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 383GTABoy:
Yea go tell that to car craft. in their issue this month they said they were going to turn up their fuel pressure in their bird for better atomization and that it wouldn't change the mixture because the o2 sensor would correct it. LOL
well they got it 1/2 right, as far as trying to correct idle/cruise.
Amazing they get anything right any more.
The magazines are really getting funny, all they want are english majors, it's more just repeating what their adverizers tell them is the truth.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2001, 07:37 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
So learn control goes off but closed loop is still on, right? Okay, if that's the case then that would explain why the ecm would go into a different BLM because of MAP voltage.
Why is it that at idle that some cars (if not all) go into open loop. Is it because of the low map reading or what?
Grumpy, can you please e-mail me, I'm in Ohio now and I'd like to talk to you about a few things.
Not all calibrations allow for open loop idle. And the reasons for doing that vary.
Overheating converters, being one.
Old 09-28-2001, 11:54 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
Once you get into closed loop, you usually stay there unless the car cools down. If you are idling for long period of time, the O2 sensor may cool down enough to not function. Remember the sensor has to heat up to around 600deg before it starts working. Thus the need for heated sensors. It also depends where in the exhaust flow the sensor is located. My '92 GMC S15 has a heated sensor, but my Camaro doesn't. The truck sensor is a little downstream compared to my IROC.
When idling for a long time, I don't think the ECM is the one who decides to go open loop. It is the O2 sensor, which stops working because of low temp, that forces open loop.
Grumpy correct me if I am wrong.
A *cold* can send an ecm into open loop. That can also set a code 13 in come calibrations. If you look thru the Mask ID 42 cals, there are some that have a timer, that sets the open loop idle, ie no VSS for x mins and it goes open loop at idle.
The manufactures play all kinds of *tricks*.
One of the big three had a tie in from the ecm to the door jam switch.
Why?.
In the EPA tests they chassis dyno'd the cars with the dr door open, so they had a lean cruise enable that in part was triggered by a door jam switch.
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2001, 10:15 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CLEE:
1. P.E. % change to fuel air ratio vs. RPM
2. Open loop fuel air ratio % change vs. load
P.E., Power enrichment.
This is a % of fuel added when in P.E..
PE is a table that enables extra fuel as a function of % TPS
the second one is fuel added due to load. The wording is funny, I would think they mean LV8. As you reach max torque and go to HP, the engine will run sweetest with a taylored fuel curve rather then at a linear AFR.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2001, 10:21 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 88 350 tpi formula:
If I change the inj. flow higher yet the int. will go higher than 128 right?
Unless your universally off, you shouldn't have to change the injec constant. Remember it also changes the AE.
If you idle / low speed cruise is off just play with the battery voltage offset.
Messing with the MAF tables and scalers aint for the weak of heart
----------------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-30-2001, 11:05 AM #1
transfixleo
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Webster, N.Y.
Posts: 1,730
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via ICQ to transfixleo
Torque Converter Clutch Calibration
Hi Gang,
I am wondering about the WOT L/U control in a factory ECM. I remember back in the '80's when I worked at a GM dealer, the info from GM was that WOT would cancel out any L/U. Now I see that apparently the OBDI cars do L/U at WOT. What cars does this apply to and what are the specific parameters?
transfixleo is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2001, 11:15 AM #2
TRAXION
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,840
Car: Toys 'R Us Big Wheel
Engine: Two Size 10 Feet
Transmission: Direct Foot Pedal Drive
iTrader: (0)
For almost all TPI thirdgens running the stock calibration the TCC unlock prevention speed threshold is 75mph. That means that any speed 75mph and greater the TCC will be locked.
Tim
------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org
TRAXION is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2001, 11:33 AM #3
transfixleo
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Webster, N.Y.
Posts: 1,730
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via ICQ to transfixleo
Thanks for the info. That explains some things for me! Do you know if this applies for other GM lines accross the board? I work on all types of cars, not just the F-bodies.
[This message has been edited by transfixleo (edited September 30, 2001).]
transfixleo is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2001, 02:51 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by transfixleo:
Thanks for the info. That explains some things for me! Do you know if this applies for other GM lines accross the board? I work on all types of cars, not just the F-bodies.
[This message has been edited by transfixleo (edited September 30, 2001).]
What Trax mentioned is a basic 700R strategy.
Some of the cop car caprices, have a warning not to use OD in pursuits.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2001, 10:18 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by prscarf:
now that the colder weather is approaching i notice my truck is having a hard time staying in closed loop and never at idle. i have read posts on a 4wire heated o2 sensor and mine is presently one wire. where do you connect the other 3 wires. also the engine has headers and the o2 ins on the 2.5" exhaust pipe 12" away from the collector flange, is this to far. where should it be located, on a cylinder tube or just before the collector flange.
one more question. if the egr system is turned off does this affect your bpw from operating, i saw this on a post.
383 stroker, 64cc 23deg trickflow heads c/w edlebrock performer intake and adapter, cam is an extreme 4x4 comp. Cam. 12-235-2 grind ( .447/.462 lift, duration 210 218 lift @50, 111 lobe separation) . unit has hypr. Flattop floating pistons, eagle cast crank, 5.7eagle rods. 10.2:1 comp. Headers c/w 2.5? flowmaster exhaust. 16147060 pcm, $85def
454tbi 80lbinjectors
A 3 wire will work just fine, usually they have 2 brown and a purple wire, the browns go to power, and ground, doesn't matter which one where, and the purple is signal to the ecm. Some brands use blk, and some white, in leiu of brown.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-04-2001, 08:39 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I am considering getting a little bottle of NO2 for my car and am wondering if I need to worry about my air to fuel ratios. I know that it is like putting pure oxygen into the system and worried that it might lean out things a bit too much.
What kind of PROM programming would I need to consider when making a chip for this application?
thanks
NOS has several problems:
1) the gas will flow faster then any fuel change.
2) You need to phase the events properly.
Ideally, you'd use several oem outputs and change the parameters, Like you could use the Charcoal canister and EGR for turning the fuel and NOS on.
Then set the NOS one to lag the Fuel/timing one.
Even with a small shot, done wrong you can do lots of damage with NOS
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2001, 05:28 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
Who has run a cable between the eprom and memcal to make eprom switches quicker? What kind of cable will shield from interference?
On some cars as little as 6"s of ribbon lenght is enough to pick up RFI. I've seen some switcher boxes that use like 18" long ribbons. If things act goody take it out and see if that fixes the problem.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2001, 09:34 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tas:
What all can you do with it? Burn chips for TPI, TBI, and '92-'93 LT1s?. How do the '94+ LT1s and LS1s get programed?
$200 will get you started in doing the eprom ecms. The newer (starting in 95) ecms are usually PCMS, and use flash programming. Not much availble for doing flashs yet, and they take a special cable to do. The LS1 are libable to be near rocket science to figure out. Eac addition ecm to your base one adds cost, and varies by what your doing. Easy to tie up a grand in software for doing many different ecms, and there is no universal software to do all the combos possible.
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-10-2001, 08:22 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89BlwnRs:
I was just wondering what software is out that will allow you to mess with the programming of an LS1's computer? Also, what hardware is necessary to allow you to connect the ECM to your computer to do the reprograming?
Specifically, I'd like to know if you could reprogram a Corvette's computer so that when you take your foot off the gas the throttle will slam shut, just as if it was mechanically actuated, instead of it closing real slow like Vettes do from the factory.
Any info on reprogramming these ECMs is greatly appreciated,
Jason
There are several firms working on cracking them but none that I know of or would recommend are advertising it yet. Lingenfelters has been given alot of classified info from GM for their vetter program, but I don't know ir they are doing customer work other then for their own cars.
There is alot more at issue in speeding up the butterfly movement, ie fueling and timing changes also.
The C5 factory cars are running a Bosch management system, and you might check around to see if they are fly by wire or in fact had to go to a cable system to get them right.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-10-2001, 09:21 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JR4444:
When you burn a PROM what kinds of things do you program? What I mean is can you program injector size, if you have a power adder like a supercharger or if you have a big cam ect...basically what I'm asking is can you program in just about anything thats electronicaly controled?
Depends.
If you go thru and reverse engineer the code then you can rewrite to do what ever you want. Most commercial editors give you the basics plus a little. If you go to www.tunercat.com there is a listing by ecm what each editor will allow you to edit.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-09-2001, 06:22 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin91Z:
The TPI fires all 8 injectors at once.
My dad tried to run a 7730 TPI computer on his 92 RS before he converted to TPI. The TPI computer was in single-fire mode, while the TBI runs in double-fire. The car wasnt getting enough fuel to even idle. He put in 454 injectors and cranked up the fuel pressure, and then it would idle, but it would die when you revved it up. So he gave up and switched to TPI. I dont know how to convert the TPI prom to double fire, otherwise it could work now. He is going to try again when he switches his 87 El Camino to TBI.
Missing some important points.
The 730 was used in a TBI application, BUT it was a single injector. Like I said use ohms law and you'll see the current ratings are way off. You need a 730 type that was used for a ***Similiar*** injector loading.
Using a 730 for a twin TBI will make for very sluggish, injector firing, and be very battery v sensitive.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-11-2001, 02:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Lowaholic:
Hey all. Alright this isn't necessarily f-body related, but I noticed that my town has a few different police SUVs and I've seen some in other various localities also. Does anybody know if these have the 'cop'/SEO chips like the cars or are they just stock setups? Most of the trucks I've seen are early 90's-ish Chevy R/V & C/Ks so I'm guessing 1227747 ECM (?). I'd be interested to see what one of these chips would do in the V8 S-10 (soon to be finished) Thanx for any info
ps- I recently suffered a complete harddrive crash & lost the links to Grumpy's bin library- could somebody repost them? Thanx
The only difference I've seen in some of the cop car stuff is different MPH, and RPM limits. Usually they just use the fleet service calibraions, with maybe a few minor tweaks, nothing sensational. Only exception to this is supposedly the FBI chips for the GNs they used for a while, but none has actually *read* one (least that I know of).
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-11-2001, 02:13 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin91Z:
I dont have a Vette Servo or a shift-kit, I've got a manual trans.
If I disconnect the knock sensor, wont I get a Code 43? I have before... But it'd be an idea to try next time.
Airflow allows lags rpm. In the VE computations there is some filtering which even worsens this.
A few patchs that use BKR at various VSS values would ignore the *shift* problem. It's not a false knock by any means. Just one that's hard to work around.
What most folks totally forget about is what is really going on during a shift. Your goiing from just above max HP to max TQ. max TQ is where the BMFC is best, so it's kinda lean there. But remember the AF is begining delayed slightly.
While not your problem since we're talking about shifts. The same thing is for converters. The looser the converter, the faster is get away from max TQ, and back to max HP AFR. So too tight of converter can be a real problem other then just at launch.
You (them)(others) need to remember there is stall speed and flash speed on comverters, and the flash speed is what determines how you recover from a shift. BTW, most converter guys just stare into the heavens when you wanna get to the nitty gritty about converters.
Also explains why you can't get a decent converter for less then $800US.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-11-2001, 10:00 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
I can say it ten times but just disconnect the knock sensor at the block...
You will not get errors. Just no retard on knock, so be careful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
trouble is then you have to tune for the lousiest gas you might run into. If you mean at the track then you should be real good reading plugs before thinking of this.
Why not put the time in and figure things out?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-12-2001, 08:39 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ptc92rs:
When I am making changes to the fuel table, is it important to unplug the batt to erase everything so new stuff is learned to the computer? If so ... How long does it take to learn the computer?(How long should I drive around befor recording new info to compair changes?)
I bought a lil micros switch from radio shack that I use to interupt the power on the Orange power lead to the ecm. Makes it easy to rease the memory, and is a neat anti-theft devise.
Minute usually does it, thou in cold weather may take several.
I generally drive for like 30 to completely *learn* in a chip. In city style a few mins freway for an assortment of cell learning
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
----------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-12-2001, 10:40 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by davidjon_99:
Well, after 6 weeks of waiting I got my Futurlec Eprom programmer today. Someone else posted about it a few weeks ago:
www.futurlec.com/EPROMProg.html
The reason it took so long to get to me here in Texas is because it shipped directly from Thailand.
I had to buy an AC-DC power supply for it, so I got a 10v 850mA power adaptor from Radio Shack (273-1614). Be aware that the center tip on the power supply connector should be negative. I had to take the programmer apart to make sure I had the polerity correct. You'll also have to buy one of Radio Shack's Adaptaplug thingies, The "N" model, which is stock number 273-1717. None of the 3 plugs that came with the power adaptor fit.
As far as I can tell, it is exactly the same as the Pocket Programmer. The Windows software that comes with it looks exactly like the Demo software for the Pocket Programmer. In fact you can download the software from here:
www.etteam.com/downloadd.html
Download the "SPEP For Windows" stuff. Half that site is written in Thai, so don't freak out.
Even though the Futurlec site doesn't say this, it looks like it can program all the same proms as the Pocket Programmer (including 29c256), but I've only programmed 27c256 so far.
I used it to download some programs from prom to file and to load programs from file to 27C256's tonight. It worked and was very fast and easy to use.
For $79 plus $16 for the power supply, it wasn't a bad deal. If you're willing to wait 6 weeks.
And what do you do for product support?.
There are lots of things that there are knock offs of that look the same on the outside but are vastly different internally. Not saying is the case here, just something to be aware of.
If it is, a PP just hope you get as many chips out of as I have with my PP
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-12-2001, 08:44 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mike89z:
I dont seem to have a table that will let me change the desired idle in gear from 800. Am I just missing something or is this just not here. The reason I want to do this is because of underdrive pullies. I was thinking if I bumped up the idle in gear to 875-900 I could get rid of this problem. Right now it is at 800.
Take the pullies off.
They do the exact opposite of what the engine needs.
Lower idle voltage makes for poor injector response.
Slowing the water pump will allow for more localized overheating within the cylinder head and actually make the engine more detonation prone, and more likely to crack the heads between the valve seat areas.
there still should be a idle in neutral and an idle in gear set of tables. Maybe called something related to IAC opening
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-12-2001, 06:08 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
I'm going to use the $6E calibration, so I need a 27C128, right? When I go to digikey.com, what's the exact chip I need? There are selections for serial/parallel, voltage, etc. I thought I would go ahead and order the chips there along with the eraser.
Hunt around and get some "pulls", ie used ones, they go from 1.50 to 1.75. That way they are disposable, and runing them doesn't hurt, like $4 a peice new ones do
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-15-2001, 09:03 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jjcirocz:
I was able to pick up a cross fire system complete and was wondering if I could use bigger throttle bodies (two barrels)with that computer? I thought this would be a good way to use two throttle bodies but will the computer be able to run the two bigger throttle bodies? what was that you mentioned about two Q-jets? Where they computer controlled and what intake did you use?
What I did was had the TBs machined out for 2" butterflies. The cross fire runs two single barrel Throttle Bodies.
While not a perfect answer, there is the option of just running some Power MOSFETs and forget the peak+hold strategy. There has been comment some time ago that that would work. Just be sure to have a ton of heat sinking for them. I'm not saying this is a definete answer, but might be worth investigating. Also, a good excuse for putting together an ecm bench.
----------------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2001, 06:07 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Nomar116:
Im curious what one is... I know they're $$$ but the local dyno shop has one and once I get the car close to being dialed in, I figured I could go record some better data and then burn a chip Thoughts?
Paul
The stock one in your car is a switching type, all it's meant to do is switch from rich to lean at 14.7:1
A true wide band will read AFRs from 20:1 to about 10.6:1.
There was is a DIY version that while not lab grade used a $3 Printed Circuit board, $12 worth of parts, and $130 sensor. Uses a DVM for reading the output. Not fancy but functional.
A WB is a tuning aid just as an EGT or G-Tech is. Using the right combination of tools is the name of the game.
You still have to figure out what AFR your engine runs best at, there is no MAGIC AFR, it's still about testing, dyno will get you close, but you still have to final tune it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-15-2001, 12:35 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kat:
A 87 computer. If Ir remember right the 85-86 cars had the slowest computer availbe at the time.
What I am wondering is can you just directly swap a 86 puter for the faster 87 comeputer.
Thanks
Kat
The 85 used a 1226870
86-89 used the 1227165.
Don't confuse ALDL refresh rate with processor speed.
---------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2001, 09:32 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by righton:
I have a 1987 corvette, the computor number is SVC 161982259. Is this the correct ECM ? If not what number should it be for 87 L-98 motor JOE
That's the new and improved version of the 1227165. There are several versions and not all are for v8s, you have the right one for a v8 application
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2001, 10:26 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ptc92rs:
Has anyone ever seen an adjustable fuel psi regulator for a TPI system without a vaccume line? My shop manual talks about it when adjusting the fuel psi but I dont have one. There is just a small hole in the side of the case above the diaphram and nothing else except the adjusting screw. This regulator appears to only sample atmosphere. Is this going to be a problem? All I know about this TPI setup is that I dont think its a factory model, and it says "Big Mouth" on the intake.
Is it used?.
Possibly broken?.
Been to 3 county fairs now, and at all 3 they had vac ref ports (3rd gen TPIs anyway)
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2001, 11:16 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ptc92rs:
It doesnt appear to be broken, no marks. All I know is its what was on the car when I got it.
Is this going to be a problem?
IF, it were mine, I'd be drilling it out and installing a piece of brass tubing in there.
TPI, right?. Just never saw that before.
-------------------------------------
Old 10-19-2001, 08:15 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyIROC-Z:
I don't know my actual measurements. but I can do without. also at one point (about 2200 RPM) the software is reporting I have 300 HP. How accurate is the HP formula in the software?
Was evaluting some software one time, and saw a flash reading of 575 HP, on the 2-3 gear change. Needless to say the tire spin really screwed up the HP calculation, I figure was at least 5% off LOL.......
Not bad for a lil v6.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2001, 08:10 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
I know that the correct answer to my question is "give the motor what it wants" but here is the deal. On October 31st, I have all day access to a brand new Dynojet complete with a wide band O2 sensor at a local technical school. My use is free and all I have to do is let the classes watch as I record data, change and burn new chips. Cool deal huh? My efforts will be focused on WOT timing and fuel /air ratios. What I would like to know is what is a good baseline to shoot for? 12.5:1? 12.8:1? I have heard that motors like a richer setting at peak torque and a leaner setting at peak horsepower. How lean usually is lean? 13.0:1 at peak HP? The shop that built my motor has an engine dyno. He claims that the 396 LT4 motors he builds generally like about 12.5:1 at peak tq and about 12.8:1 at peak HP. What about after peak HP? Do you richen it back up? Just looking for some rules of thumb here. My intent is to baseline the car to see how close I have it now and then shoot for a specific fuel air ratio. Then if all goes well, try it a little leaner and then richer to se if it picks up or gains anything. I do not suspect much power will be in my timing. I run about 35 degrees total advance currently with no knocking as picked up by the knock sensor.
Jason
89 vette,
AL heads?.
You're probably going to be at too much timing at 35d, and again it's what the engine wants
Best torque = Best BSFC
So you be going richer at rpm increase, GENERALLY. Exhuast system will come into play on that. Can get into alot of factors, ie baro presure will drive the self EGR'ing of the engine up as it rises, so gotta be careful in what your **assuming**. Starting in the low 12 would be a min.. Lots of things in chassis dynoing, and then remember you'll have too much timing, and probably be a tad lean when it actually comes time to drive down the road. You can't thermally load an engine on a chassis dyno like in a car, and the airflow, underhood, can't even come close.
First rule in tuning is never accept dyno results are always being best. Again, it's just one tool for you to use.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2001, 12:17 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89vette:
Why too much timing at 35 degrees? LT1's run 38 degrees. My car runs sluggish at 28-30 degrees total. Seems to like 35 degrees. I thought aluminum heads can take a little more timing than iron ones.
The LT1 is again a different story, and are you talking iron or AL LT1?. On the one I just finished tuning, 95 Caprice, we're running 32d timing, and 14.8s with a 4020# car (stock but exhuast).
Often slow feeling is faster, at the strip (to a degree).
It's not a mater of how much timing you can run, it's a matter of best HP. You can run too rich with too much timing and seriously mess up your motor, might ask Traxion about his tuning episode.
If it's just about timing, I really must be off since in winter tune now, I'm only running 15d .. Applications make a difference.
The idea is to run the min amount of timing consistant with Max HP. Not the max amount that the engine will tolerate. Huge difference in parts bills that way.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-21-2001, 04:57 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
I am putting together my first board and I am not sure which direction the diodes and capacitors need to go. I noticed the diodes have a black stip on one end of them so I have been matching the black strip with the strip that is on the symbol, printed on the board.
Also the capacitors I am not sure on C2,C3,C4,c7,c10,c8,c14,,c13 and c9. I cant find anything on them telling me polarity, maybe it dosent matter on these capacitors?
Thanks
Disclaimer, I don't have my glasses on.
But, on the ones that it does matter there is a + on one side. I can see c7 clearly enough that it isn't polarity sensitive.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-21-2001, 06:28 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Thanks
How about diodes? Is there a certain direction to them?
Also c3 and c4 are marked on the board but not the capacitor. One wire is longer on the capacitor. Is the longer wire Positive?
Im not going to be able to finish this right away anyways. On chips u2 and u4 I orderd LM2902m-nd And I should have orderd LM2902N-nd. They are to small to fit the board.
Also one other thing How easy is this thing to use? Can it read a airfuel ratio during a hard acceleration? Or does Digital volt meter jump around, making it hard to know your actual A/F Ratio?
All depends on you sampling rate, ie how often you look at the sensor.
I use a Digital Volt Meter, and it's rate is fast enough to catch changes, yet slow enough I can read it.
If you put an Oscilloscope on it at low to medium rpm, you can see each cylinder firing.
The trick at the moment is a chep way to do datalogging with it.
I have a chip that runs open loop just fine, so I can use a voltage divider to input the WB into the oem O2s input for recording.
There are a few guys working on displays, and interfacing items.
At the DIY site there is a schematic for a LED bargraph display.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
AustinT is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-21-2001, 10:52 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Thanks Grumpy
Im excited to get this thing going. Now Im interested what Role do you play, or how are you involved with this whole Wide band A/F meter. You seem to be answering most all of the posts about the Meter
Thanks
I thought of getting organized and just doing it, getting some smart guys, some EEs etc together to work on it. Bought the sensors for the EE guys to play with. Spent weeks reading patents. Then played *cheerleader* for 3 years pushing to get it done. Nuts huh?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2001, 02:40 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
I think I speak for everyone here at thirdgen when I say, thanks Grumpy
Thanks, and your welcome.
R+D lab here at CSH, HQ, is still busy thou.
The WB was in part to help guys that just *don't get* plug reading. Another item is detonation. The acoustic K/S are just about little better then nothing in my mind. Gotta be a better answer ...
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2001, 02:50 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by GregWestphal:
No difference except in the name. Well, WOT usually means 100% throttle, but as far as tuner programs, those 2 terms are both used but mean the same thing, with PE being the correct GM term.
Beg to differ.
You can set PE to be enabled at like 15% TPS, and that's hardly WOT.
WOT means mechanically the engine is at full load or close to it. ie Butterflie/s are about fully open.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2001, 03:48 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by davidjon_99:
For tuning purposes I see some tables named WOT something and PE something. Are those terms used to mean the same thing in that context?
I agree that WOT should mean close to 100% open.
A table labeled WOT means your just about at full throttle. It varies some, but lots of ecms use a TPSv to mean that.
Lots of them consider like 3.8v TPS as being WOT. It also, *might* mean that things are getting refered to a specific RAM location. This is why actually knowing the code that is running in your car is so important. There are some entries also that are just filler material, and they can have any kind of name.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-21-2001, 11:02 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ptc92rs:
The whole reason I started burning chips was to fix my spark knock problem.
I assumed the problem was simply due to a lean mixture condition and could be fixed in the VE tables.
Its been a few weeks now and I've got the VE tables so close I can't stop patting myself on the back, but I'm still plaiged with awefull ping\knock.
It doesn't matter which gear I'm in, when the engine is hot it knocks under light acceleration. Any time I add just a little throttle(light acceleration), it pings, but just a little more throttle and it stops, and I'm not talking flooring it, just a smidgen more.
When it starts to ping, I can see the spark retard on the scan tool, sometimes 10 or 12 deg. worth, but it will just keep on knockin until I either let up or push down the accelerator.
I have read as much as I can find but still feel clueless when it comes to the spark tables. Can anyone spare some advice to this situation? I have looked thru the tables and just dont know where to start.
Currently my .bin is based on a '92 305 5spd 3.08 rear. I found a .bin for a 90 350 5spd and tried importing the spark tables thinking this would help since I have a 350, but it made things worse so I guess the best starting point is the one I already have.
Can you cut and paste your timing table?.
Bruce
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2001, 05:51 PM #13
ptc92rs
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Peachtree City, GA, USA
Posts: 84
iTrader: (0)
First I want to thank everyone for all of their great input. The problem is fixed!
I tried GRUMPY's fix today but unfortunately it was no help. While backtracking my attempts to fix this problem I decided to take one more look at my new knock sensor. I wrote down the part # and called my local GM dealer. It turns out the sensor that Auto Zone sold me a while back not only had a valid GM part # but was the wrong one, it was for a 3.1 ltr. 6 cyl. Auto Zone seemed happy to do an exchange for the 10456549 sensor I needed(can't believe Auto Zone sells Knock Sensors with GM part #'s at less than half price). To make a long story short, the problem vanished with the correct sensor.
The odd thing is that the old (wrong) sensor reported knock, the computer appeared to register it and innitiate retard, but obviously it was either not enough or the computer was some how being tricked.
Well, that's one less "ISSUE"!
--------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2001, 06:46 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
How would one go about chaning the prom?
You need a fully commented hac, not just the calibrations, the whole thing.
Then look at the memory (RAM) addresses used in the ALDL stream, then substitute whatever items (by ram location) that you want to look at. Then make the changes in the scan tool to read the new ALDL strea. FWIW, I double entry my O2 so I can keep closer tabs on it with my scanner / data logging.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-24-2001, 09:56 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TC602:
Has anyone been playing with any of the DFCO settings? I have noticed that RPMs fall faster when DFCO is disabled by the ECM. Am I on the right track or am I still lost?
I turn it off on my GN as a anti-lag strategy. In a N/A car doing so just wastes gas, and the engine will have a tendency to load up. Study the spark stuff there are other ways to increase roll down.....
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Old 10-25-2001, 09:40 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by My90Iroc:
Is DFI really advantageous to using the stock computer with a custom chip to match the application? I'm building a 385 cu. in. motor, but I'm not sure if I'll have enough to get the SR intake right away, so I may leave the LTR setup until funds allow SR. If this is the case, I'm going to have to get the chip done once, then again when the SR gets on there. I am considering burning the chip myself, but if I have the time to do that will be the determining factor. My other idea is that if I have the $$ for the SR, maybe I should wait on that and get DFI first, then add the SR later. What are your thoughts on this? What exactly do you need for DFI and does everything come in the kit (like you see in Jeg's) or is there extra stuff needed also? The car is a '90 (obviously) so it currently uses Speed Density.
Every so often an ecm will fail. When your running DFI are you going to carry a spare?.
I carry a spare ecm, cost $35.
Takes a lil more talent to work on a stock ecm, and you can't just plug a cable in and drive away and change stuff as you go.
For me I have to stop and think, and I can burn a chip will writting notes.
For a race car running P+H injectors you have to go aftermarket.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2001, 10:11 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by davidjon_99:
Okay, I've made some pretty good improvements in my ol' truck. Got the BLM's very close to 128 and I've improved acceleration for passing, but I just can't figure out how the get more acceleration from a stand still. It doesn't hesitate, it just bogs down.
Is it a matter of adjusting pump shot, or should I be looking at spark advance too?
It's a balancing act of everything.
AE
Timing table
PE enables
VE table
Spark adder
Need to start doing one change at a time, and take notes about things. Notes are very important.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-25-2001, 10:49 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor J:
There was a guy on the EFI board offering a parts kit for the DIY WB O2 sensor - in Superior, CO if I remember right. Does anybody know if this was a legit offer? Anyone actually get parts or communications from that individual? I've tried to contact him by e-mail but get no response.
I'm about to place my parts order with DigiKey (but don't really want to buy 5 of everything); so I was looking at the parts kit offer - it's not a lot of money, but I feel silly sending a check for something that might be a hoax. TIA
drj
easy to make wrong assumptions, I wish people would research something befor hanging a tag on someone
If you'd been following along, you'd know that he's doing a few hundred kits.
He put $5K on his credit card to buy the stuff, and said he wasn't going to cash any checks till the parts are ready to ship, and instead of anwering repeatative email, he was working on packaging the parts.
You have any worries buy Digikey,
don't call a guy anything negative just because your not up on what's going on. You could have just as easy let the hoax garbage out.
BTW, his name is Steve, and has done alot of work for free to push the prom burning effort forward. He's been on the inside for like 5+ years.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2001, 09:35 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor J:
Actually, grumpy, I did look through the EFI archives for a few recent months - but after I filtered out all of the constant flames and repetitive vitriol, maybe I missed seeing something worth reading. Electronics is the hobby I enjoy, not following soap operas.
As far as researching the topic, it was seeing lots of your posts over there that made me wonder who (if anyone) has a good reputation on that board. Hence my question about from whom to order parts.
To make a long story short, somebody pointed out a note from 'Lyndon' aka 'programmer' that seemed to endorse the parts kit. I don't know who Lyndon is, but I've seen his stuff on other message boards and his responses have always been helpful, polite, and to the point. For that reason I'm inclined to trust what he says - FWIW.
Thanks for your input anyway.
drj
The only *flaming* over there is with a guy that finds himself above the users agreement, and is selling boards in Australia. It's hard enough to get engineers to devote time for free projects, and when someone cashs in on their work it's harder to get someone else to take their place. It tooks years to get the WB done, and your right it upsets to see someone pull stuff like that.
His actions also killed off a Ionization Detonation Project that would have been just as easy to build for the home tuner.
Just think, accurate timing and fuel with DIY stuff. Sounds like a good idea to me. No false Knock to mess with..... No tip in or trace detonation!.
There is alot at steak with that *flame war*.
-----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-29-2001, 04:50 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I removed all my air pump equipment and I'd like to know how long it takes for a 1 wire o2 sensor to warm up. Just give me an aproximate time. Let's say I was running rich in open loop. Does this help?
Now if it goes into closed loop too early (before o2 warms up), is the car going to run lean or rich and how 'off' is the sensor as the temp changes?
It takes longer for the coolant to get to temp then the O2 to heat on every car I've worked on.
Heated 3 wire that I'm using takes about 30 to start to flicker, and the WB 45 secs. I have the CTS enable (for closed loop) turned down to 90dF and the O2 is still always ready first. BTW, I use an 85dF temp endable for the TCC.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-29-2001, 04:53 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
You definatly need to adjust that. 150 isn't good for the motor, when in open loop you're probably running way lean! not to mension your IAC will open up to try and adjust for the crappy idle...this will just make things more lean. Definatly bump up your injector constant or something. It's better to run below 128 (rich) than above.
I just wish I could figure out this darn 4 wire 02 sensor. I have it but didn't install it because I was just trying to get my car to RUN. It's an easy install but I think I might be running into problems when tuning in closed loop because the o2 sensor isn't warming up. I'm thinking that it's making me run lean because that's what it feels like.
Grumpy, I know you know this one :-). Don't you like my technical questions
It doesn't hurt the motor to run at other then 128s. Just that your wasting the ability of the BL, and slewing all the corrections in the ecm to the extremes, which can leave you with tip in stumbles, etc.. If you runniing a BL of 160 and Int of 128 your still at 14.7:1 (well as they've told us)
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-29-2001, 04:55 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JoBy:
I installed an extra O2 sensor when I installed my full length headers and connected that to an A/F meeter (home built)
I used a one wire O2 sensor and it is located at the collector. The meter comes alive after 30 seconds or so. Heat up time is not a problem. When I let it idle for a while it gets too cold, so I will replace it with a heated one later on. I think that is because it is so far from the exhaust ports.
I think that the air pump is used to heat up the cat, not the O2 sensor.
Does both.
Smog pump promotes afterburning in the exhuast. Meaning they TRY to have an excess of O2 around so any unburnt hydrocarbons further react.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-29-2001, 05:00 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt87GTA:
You cannot take the O2 sensor's (one wire, unheated style) lean readings during a cold start as a true reading of where the air fuel ratio is at. The sensor needs to warm up, as discussed above. And it just so happens that installing headers and removing emissions control devices (ie. A.I.R. system and catalytic converter) extends this warm up time even further (this inefficient design is what brought about the heated O2 sensor which heats up fast and is able to get the system into closed loop sooner which =, among other things, cleaner emissions and better idle quality).
This also means that installing an O2 sensor (one wire, unheated style) for monitoring the air fuel ratio too far from the engine is not very useful. It will tend to be reading inaccurate - likely not ever reading accurate since it is so far downstream from the source of heat (the engine) that it needs to stay hot enough to read accurately.... The bottom line is that the O2 sensor's on our cars are very sensitive to how far away from the engine they are because they need to stay hot enough too accurately read the air fuel ratio (mixture) that the engine is running at....
And don't worry about what the BLMs are on a cold start either; they are not reflective of the air fuel ratio until the system goes into closed loop... (see above)
I relocated my O2 sensor back about 5' from the oem location, no problem.
there is a time transist time in the code for how long after a change the O2 should respond, IF you found a problem with the O2 being relocated that MIGHT be tampered with. But, I think mine is the worst case sensario, going from pre turbo to way the heck downstream, and everything is fine. At lean cruise the O2 mv dropped like 15mv, hardly enough to count
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2001, 04:28 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by james_fearn:
How would you rate a stock PROM for a stock TPI engine? Did the engineers do a good job of maintaining the "128"?
I imagine the descepancy of needs between stock production engines are fairly common. So how perfect does it need to be? The stock PROM for a given year runs all the TPI engines for that year pretty well. Obviously you can fine tune a PROM for a particular engine and gain better driveability by doing so.
At which point do you reach diminishing returns? Are there diminishing returns? By diminishing returns I mean the more time you put into making the table perfect isn't well spent because the TPI sensoring equipment isn't precise/accurate enough for the new values to translate into meaningful performance gains.
James
I've talked with some of the guys that did the actual calibrations from 86-94. they put a tremendous amount of work in getting the calibration to work well under any condition you can imagine. ie to include driving with a flat tire.
Ever notice how oversized the oem injectors are?. This allows for small range of BL Int values to account for those conditions. On my GN I'm running 55#/hr injectors, I have no intenstion of running at 620 HP. But, I want to have 500ish available at all times. With the way I have things planned, I have enough resolution in my calibration, to twist the Boost from 15 PSI to 28 and have the proper fueling and timing for what I want to do.
Deminishing returns?.
Once you get into really seeing what you can do, it can be very addictive. Gets to be well I did this strategy, but so and so mentioned something else, and lets see where we go trying that. My first EFI attempt took 400 chips to get right. Knowing what I know now that would be probably 70.
Once you see and feel whats going on then you can really let your thoughts fly.
Or help a friend with his car and see how things vary from mask to mask. That is when things get real cool.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2001, 08:11 AM #39
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
To further add to the posts above, at 14.7:1, the O2 sensor is "switching" around .450 mV where the O2 sensor is very accurate as pointed out above. It is when the O2 sensor gets further away from .450 that it accuracy diminisishes.
I recently have been testing Highway Mode and trying to see how lean I can go with it. I found at AF ratios leaner than 17.6:1 that the O2 reading got into single digits. What I noticed was my injector pulse width was actually higher with 18.0:1 than 17.6:1 on the same stretch of road that I have been using to test. Also, the O2 sensor seemed to take longer to get a "varying" O2 sensor reading. So, while the ecm can accept AF Ratios > 17.6:1, they become meaningless because the O2 sensor is not accurate enough to give a proper calculation for the injector pulse width.
WOT has exactly the same problem, except it is in the opposite "spectrum" of the O2's range.
The highway cruise mode AFRs are gnerally based on the 14.7 AFR learning. Soo, if the ecm hasn't learned in or the there is a problem in learning the 14.7 then it will "default" to a reicher AFR. Might also delay the *enable* time for highway cruise.
IMO, no need to run over 17:1. Gets to where you need alot of timing to realize that lan of AFR. Now in a real light car and lotza gear maybe. Also, at leaner then that a bad tank of gas might be really bad on the engine.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-14-2003, 06:46 AM #63
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
The only downside with the self tuning stuff if that it just looks for Stoich. If your running some sort of hotrod, then that might not actually be the best AFR for your car. Especially if your looking for economy. Stoich and the original strategy of just AVERAGING 14.7 is for the converter, and has nothing to do with what might be the best AFR for your car.
Incidently, I get my best mileage at 13.8, with just 28d of timing.
Takes time and effort to find the motor's sweet spots.
Again, a WB makes this all so much easier. In what you'll waste in gas trying to figure things out, will easily pay for one.
--------------------------------
10-25-2001, 10:53 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
The chip currently in the car is a Z-Industries that someone put in before I got it.
Just read any posting about Hyperteck, or ADS, he's about the same.
He really knows alot, or so he thinks.
He'd told me I'd never get a 224 @ 050 cammed 355 to idle, hahhaaha
Take an ARAP, read up on the modes, to get it running and have some fun.
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2001, 05:54 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by nsimmons:
My application calls for a 2732a prom but i have piles of 27256 proms laying around, could i just write the first 4k and get it to work?
never mind..i just noticed the extra eproms i have have to many pins
What you can do is make a prom switcher.
Over at the DIY there is a diagram for one.
------------------------------
Old 11-01-2001, 07:46 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Nomar116:
I didnt at all appreciate having my topic closed. I was not "prom begging" I was simply hoping I could get some sort of starting ground for comparison from my stock chip, to a successful chip on my motor
I've been posting how to's longer then anybody I know of. Talked to thousands of guys over the years. And it always always always, boils down to just getting in and doing it. It will all seem overwelhming for a while, just as anything else really NEW is. Take notes, work slow, measure performance. Learning to read plugs is also a grand idea. If you let it it can be frustrating, but remember frustration is just things getting to you and have little to do with reality. Even when you burn the perfect chip you'll be learning, and all of a sudden perfect is no even close, as you learn, you get better, and what you'll settle for even changes. There is no bin better then what you need to start with then stock. Cruel as that answer is it's the truth.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2001, 07:50 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by okfoz:
I am wondering, what chip does an 1987 LG4 use. Does anyone know? Its a 24 pin if that helps.
John
I beleive it's a 2716.
Just get a chip from the ZZZ retrofit kit and matching ecm.
I tried all the chips avaialble and all the ecms you could possibly try, and the GM is the best. Get Doug Roes QJet Book, and that has all the fueling answers
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2001, 02:28 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DPeterson:
Do you think there is room for improvment for an unmodified TPI engine by programming the prom to optimize the driveability and throttle response over emissions and fuel mileage? Glenn has spoken of optimizing WOT operation of a substantially stock engine, but I am referring here to "around town" conditions driveability.
If your willing to settle for what the average driver calls good, then you'lll never notice anything different. If thou you want the best, and taylor it to your way of driving, then you'll wonder why folks even drive cars with stock chips.
The oem chips are designed to work under a worst case scenario. And they do that well. The trade off is that they don't do anything really well (pre 95).
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2001, 10:37 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
nevermind, just was thinking since Dyno Don posted that TPI injectors and TBI injectors measured the same ohm load I thought it would be possible. Maybe it's a long shot but I just don't understand why it wouldn't work.
[This message has been edited by JPrevost (edited November 02, 2001).]
He needs a better ohm meter. I just double checked, on my group of 8 saturated injectors I read 2.5 ohms.
I also just checked a TBI injector, and it's 1.2 ohms. That 1.2 ohms is per injector. so the actual load fired thru a single injector driver is like .6 ohms.
Doubt me?.
Set up an ecm and actually try it, rather then just hoping to get a reply you like.
And again your ignoring the perferred operating ranges of the injectors.
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2001, 02:23 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Don't TRY and piss me off, I'm already hitting my head on the wall because of the darn fuel pump.
Notice I edited my post, I did a lot more research after posting so you guys are still not giving me any sound reasoning. The advantage of running a TPI ecm would be the use of an eeprom, having more complete tables in tunercat, a faster data rate, more goodies like AFR at WOT and at different coolant temps! The 8746 may have been "hacked" but it isn't anywhere near as far as the 7747 or the 730 and I like having more options. I'm one of those dogs that can't live on bread and water alone. Give me a bigger menu!
BTW Grumpy, I'm not trying to just post to hear an answer I like. I'm posting to hear answers "I" wouldn't have thought about.
No one can piss anyone off, if they don't want to be. If you want to act pissy that's on your head for being that way. I just write answers, reading anything into them more then that is silly and childish.
I've given you all the hints in the world for running a 2 brl TBI off of a particular P4 ecm. I've told you exactly where to look and you ignored it.
What will you consider sound reasoning?.
I've told you the resistances are different, and went to the trouble to 2x my readings before posting. I've explained the suggested operating times, and you want to ignore that. I mentioned the differences in manifold designs, and you've ignored that.
Even with you ignoring so much of what I said, telling you where to look, and then you tell me not to piss you off?.
Right...
If you want as much info on the 8746 as the 747 just takes work. You can follow Programming 101 and brute force it, or comment the code yourself.
You don't like any of the sound reasoning that you've gotten, well wire up an ecm, and go for it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2001, 08:46 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by hectorsn:
OK, no big deal as far as the resistance goes. A set of parrallel run TPI injectors gives you 2.5 ohms and one TBI injector gives 1.2 ohms so wiring the TBI injectors in series gives you 2.4 ohms. Now, what will they run like is anybody's guess. Also, this doesn't take care of anything to do with the firings per revolution which I don't know if there will even be a compatability issue. Now you say you want to use an eeprom. Doesn't the 2732 and 29256 have the same pins and i/o? A faster data rate can be had with lockers. Much faster than 8192 baud. I wish I knew what you referred to with the WOT AFR but I really haven't studied the 746/747 ecms as I will be using a 730. But if you like options then go with port fuel injection. TBI just doesn't cut it, especially at WOT. You don't have to use a GM TPI design. Hell, make your own. I plan on using a modded Vic Jr. and I already have a Holley for a TB, sans boosters and venturis and bowls. I like options too and when none are easily available, I make my own.
Wiring them in series effectively makes them 6v injectors, and they will be lazy. Looking at the PW correction via battery correction and you'll see how much correction is needed as the voltage drops. Firing them in series, and you can actually hear them get erratic on an ecm bench.
The injector firing strategies are a matter of using atomization (TBI) vs vaporization (TPI), in conjunction with wet and dry manifolding.
TBI uses the shearing forces of the butterflies to atomize the fuel so that it can get to the intake valve pocket. TPI just squirts the fuel into the intake valve pocket, and relies on the action of valve overlap to do all the work of vaporization.
Ultimately its the exhaust blowing across the fuel at overlap that gets the fuel ready for the reaction in the chamber.
2732 is 24 pin and the 128/256s are 28.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2001, 08:22 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Yes, but the timing is measure in Crankshaft degrees. Since the crank turns twice for every revolution of the camshaft/distributor, the 45* distributor is equivalent to 90* crankshaft or spark timing.
90* is the maximum you can set the spark to in the eprom. With highway mode and a functioning EGR I routinely run 47.2*. You actually need that extra spark advance because the mixture is leaned and diluted with exhaust gas, so the mixture is not that volatile and the extra spark helps.
But that is getting close to the maximum that you would want to run and not experience driveability problems. When Highway Mode is not invoked, I limit myself to 42* max, and that is with the EGR. I would back it off a bit further if I didn't have an EGR.
I really doubt your at 47d timing with a distributor. You'd be cross firing, and 5-7 given any excuse would be missing.
There are two limits on dissy cars, one for the large cap, and one max for the small cap.
DIS is a whole nutter matter.
Might splain why dissies are disappearing, and things like eDIST will become so popular.
Now with an eDIST and stuff you can run over 50d, but that is really like for some ultra low CR engine. Ya, like a turbo motor ...
Course this might be ignoring some other stuff.......
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2001, 08:25 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
When ever I bump the timing up and test the eprom I get an ESC error code. It only happens when max timing should be. Am I maxing out my timing advance or what's going on?
In the constants, should I turn down the "Main spark bias" from 20 to something like 10? What will this do to the overall timing?
What the heck is "Coolant spark advance bias"? The value is also 20 but I don't understand what this constant is for.
What you can wind up doing is messing the ESC test up.
The EST test will assume that the test will force the engine to knock when it does the test. So if a lil too rich or some combo there of, the engine might not pass the ESC test, so it sets an ESC code
Some programs will prohibit PE timing if the engine fails the ESC drill.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2001, 10:43 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
Yes, Bruce, I am running 47.2* while in Highway Mode. Remember the 47* is base on the crankshaft which is 90* between cylinders. There is 720* for a complete operating cycle based on crankshaft degrees (720*/8=90*), while the distributor only makes 1 revolution during that same interval. Hence the 45* between 5 and 7 is really 90* based on the crankshaft (and the spark timing). All timing is based and measured on crankshaft degrees.
Come on Glenn, if you want to be condesending, we'll just end the discussion now.
OK, so some how you have the spark taking the path of greatest resistance in the cap rotor air gap. At 45.000000000001d BTDC the air gap will be shortest to the last cylinder then the one your trying to fire.
You might think you have 47d in the chip, but unless you've redone the code, the timing with stop at 42 or 45d.
Your scanner will even report the calc'd value.
Or you might be using a 0 bias, and setting the timing up from there to get an alleged 47d but, the ecm ain't gonna calc over the limit set in the program, and sparks take the path of least resistance.
The above ref dissy code, DIS is different.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-03-2001, 10:26 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
In the 7747 and 8746, what are all the values that are effected by EGR?
For guys that used to disable EGR the "old way," what had to be modified?
How does one disable the EGR vacuum drop check? I have a check valve but I would just like to just disable the test.
The reason I need this information is to use the EGR on/off temp and speed to control my single fan. I don't see why it wouldn't work. Gives me more control over the fan since I can choose the range of temp and have it turn off when I get above ~50mph.
Probably be easier to use the Charcoal Canister Purge. Trouble is there is not on and off values so the fan will be constantly cycling on and off as the temp changes 1d. Bad thing with that is the alternator loading a fluctuating battery voltage, and injector corrrections. Probably have a choppy idle as it cycled. Most folks run at least a 3d difference from on to off temps..
GN rad fan switch is a good cure. One less thing to thermally load the ecm.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-04-2001, 04:17 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
Well I got more chips so I'm back to my second ARAP rev. I'm showing BLM steady at 160 at idle in closed loop. If I give it any gas at all to get into cell #4 it goes to 130. Timing there is at 20d. How should I add fuel only at idle? Is this a usual problem with the HOT cam?
Try adding a few points to the injector PW/Battery voltage correction (in the 13-14v area). That little PW correction will show most at idle, and just off idle.
---------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-03-2001, 08:22 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by lars92RS:
http://www.cfm-tech.com/MapSensorAdjuster.htm
Check this link. It's says it's a MAP sensopr adjuster. this page has some cool stuff on it.
-Lars
Cool stuff?.
Your map adjuster is two resistors. Wired up as a voltage divider. Try a 1K, and either a 4.7K, and 10K. Very crude way to do things.
You can make a TBI spacer from hard wood, painted with model airplane paint for $10, and save $76. I've been run a wood one for 5yrs now, with no problems. Painted stealth black, at no extra cost..
Just think of what you just saved....
For the $250 for one of his custom chips, you could be burning your own.
Lots of this stuff, is like the turbulator, or whatever it's current name is. Find a car that runs lean, add something to restrict the air flow, and it can run better, and then you can make a 15 HP claim. Or rechip it a little richer and gain 20.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2001, 06:53 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Funny stuff. Check this ebay item, lol
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cg...464814&r=0&t=0
Look at how many people believe this guy.
Maybe they should invest some TIME into an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.
Fools Money, yada yada
If your calibration is off (lean) then it will cetainly work. Trouble is ever GM cal I've seen is rich (at WOT).
If your really contemplate it, it can't work any better in cruise since the ecm is maintaining a 14.7:1 average. He just happened to have some gas that varied the results (ie was running with the K/S active).
I just love how folks can tell 1/2 the *facts* and get away with it.
Notice some of the stuff claiming NASA used the product has stopped?. NASA buys one of everything for evaluation, so yes they used all the snake oils, Once or Twice!.
Prom burning content.
I'd like to see any product do better then a chip I could do for the same vehicle
(3rd gen specific)
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2001, 07:34 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Burgess:
I'm trying to get a '90 truck which came with a 5.7 & TBI system (1227747 ECM)
to work with a Chev ZZZ crate motor - which is a 350, as well, but has a
GM ZZZ (10134334) cam which has 0.480" lift, 235 degrees duration @ 0.050 &
336 degrees duration @ 0.004", for both int & exh. This is the first TBI
system I've worked on & so far I've tried just increasing the target idle
to 1000 rpm & also increasing the target idle to 1000 rpm & leaning out
(reducing) the two VE tables by 30%, but the thing does not want to run
unless I give it lots of base advance at the distributor. From the HC & CO
readings, it actually appeared to run lean, so I'm going to try & increase
the VE tables by 15% & see what happens. Any recommendations on what to
modify, or am I doomed in trying to get this thing to run with that cam in
there? The VE tables only go to 3200 rpm & the spark tables only go to
3600 rpm, so I'm wondering if this ECM is really capable of running this
motor......
For openers get a early BBC TBI throttle body. Running the stock throttle body on that is going to be like breathing thru a straw. Look at the tuning.doc at the DIY EFI Site, it was all about tuning a 224 @ 050 TBI engine
Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2001, 07:00 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Burgess:
Couldn't find the file in the FTP site index on diy-efi. Where is it located?
Arrgh, try here
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/
Poke around, lots of related good stuff there
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-24-2001, 09:23 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Anybody have the publication? I just finished reading it for the 2nd time but this time I understood every word. It's a great feeling. The whole publication is about EFI.
They go into detail about every EFI system designed. Best part is it's articles from Hot Rod, Car Craft, Chevy High Performance, and Mustang & Fords. The purpose is to show all the different price ranges and options that are involved. They explain how MAF, speed density, Alpha N systems work. How TPI needs tuned runners because it was designed for a 305, how the injectors are controlled, wet flow vs dry flow, carb power vs EFI, they even have cars showing the setups.
For anybody that wants some good reading, pick this up. I'm going to try and call up Petersen Publishing Company to see if they'll let me scan it indo a pdf file. Does anybody know what kind of permissions I'll need? I'm not making any money off of it so is it legal for me to just scan it as long as I keep the credits and copyright laws?
There are few publications that I can actually read every word, this was one of them.
Just remember the car mag writers are journalists and just report what's told to them. So thye just write anything, with no need want or desire for the info to actually be meaningful. Toss in all the stuff they do is with donated parts.
Mags, are only slightly better then the comics. Oh, and teh GM tech schools reduce thing to a point where everyone can grasp a general idea of whats going on.
Great to get the info., but temper it as being true to YOU verify that the stuff works.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-06-2001, 12:14 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
I notice that there is a lot of info on tuning the VE tables, but not much on PE. I understand the basics fairly well, but what I really need to know is this: Is it possible to tune the PE tables without a WB O2 sensor?
?????
even with a WB you still need to measure performance
Just set you fuel for the best performance weither stop watch, Gtech, or at the strip
(Butometer is lousy as a watch).
Read the plugs looking for detonation.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-07-2001, 06:51 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo:
My main concern is getting the A/F into the ballpark before I spend lots of money on dyno time. Aside from that, the nearest dyno is an hour from here. My motor tends to want a lot more fuel on the top end, and I'm afraid of running dangerously lean.
Make a short WOT pass and time it.
Richen it up and do the same thing.
Should get in on the DIY-WB deal.
Hard to beat $16 (board and parts kit), and $130 (for the sensor) to get a real WB. Doesn't have all the bells and whistles, but hey it would help see where you are.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-07-2001, 05:02 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by righton:
How do I get to the DIY-WB deal , where is the web site, location?
http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/diy_wb/
They are just now shipping the last boards on the GP. But should be starting agin in a few weeks. The best way is to sub, and lurk till they announce another board GP. It's all by volunteers, and a non profit item so the penalty is having to wait till it rolls around, to get in on it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-06-2001, 12:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
Running the ARAP bin gives me 12.5 A/F on my scanner. That's where you want to be for WOT, right? I'm doing WOT plug chops and it looks a little lean, so as I add % to this table my scanner shows that I'm getting values now around 11.6. I haven't seen much difference in the plug color yet. Does the A/F scanner value at WOT really mean anything? I could really see the O2 values increase with each chip burn. I increased fuel and did plug chops in three steps from the ARAP table values of -3.9 to 5. The O2 started at 875 and wound up at 935.
You never, never, never tune to get a particular AFR. You tune for best performance, measured performance.
Looking lean can happen with some of the strange brews of gas floating around. About the only fuel that burns with the right color anymore is race stuff.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-07-2001, 07:15 AM
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-12-2001, 06:05 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Is it possible?
I could really use the hood clearance right about now. The holley 1" adaptor plate doesn't work well under my stock hood and I don't feel like spending $400+paint for a cowl hood. Does anybody have any information like a website or a company that sells an adaptor. The only problem I see is controlling 4 injectors with the GM drivers.
I thought I saw a website once that showed how to do it but I can't find it anymore and I've been searching for about a week now with no luck.
I just called up Holley and got the run around about how they have no idea but to call so and so.
I called a number Howle or something (got number from Holley) and he said that I could just run the injectors in series. Is that true.
Howell's, and several other folks have just wired the injectors in series parrarel, so you then have a 12v injector trying to run on 6v. I've know at least 6 guys that tried that, nope you can get them to go to again about 3K and they get flakey.
Their injector sizing is also a mystery. (4) 75 #/hr injectors is good for almost 600HP. Getting a short enough pulse for them to idle right is going to be really rough.
If you change to smaller injectors, and run an external injector driver, and then start from square one, you MIGHT get it right.
Would be ALOT of work.
For up to 350 the 454 TB and big injectors will work great. I know that not what your looking for, but just what will work.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-12-2001, 10:47 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73:
This is the route I've been considering taking with my '73 Vette. Slap a 2" 2bbl (454) TBI on top of a single plane manifold or a CrossRam (an Offenhauser, not a CrossFire!) manifold. I remember reading somewhere that a single plane manifold needs less airflow for the same amount of power (since it can draw from both barrels, instead of just one in a dual plane) or returns more power for the same amount of airflow. I would think a CrossRam would help make up a little bit of the lost low-end you might lose with a single plane manifold.
Ken
take 2 injectors and wire them in series, and use this pair as a single injector to the ecm. Then the other two injectors in series and wire them to the other injector driver, so then you have a series / parrarel circuit.
I've run Q-Jets on a GM cross fire with excellent results (and alot of stares).
Matter of fact going to do a 454 TBI TB to replace the Q-Jet soon.
The original Cross rams have a ton of plnum volume, and you'll need alot of AE to cover it.
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-13-2001, 10:59 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73:
AE? Acceleration Enrichment? (Pump shot, I assume?) I've heard about that - you need more fuel to help fill the plenum, otherwise you get a bog.... (?)
Ken
Holley really looks to be trying to get into the EFI market, but they aren't advertising, and well their tech department, just ain't a tech enough.
There are several things.
Fuel trails air flow changes. With a large volume plenum, can get tricky balancing them. The sudden change in vac levels, changes the way the fuel wants to vaporize. Also, with TBIs, the shearing action at low throttle openings, has a huge effect on atomizing the fuel, and you lose that at higher throttle openings.
I always thought a crass ram would be fun, but after using the cross fire, figured it would be just overkill for most any street engine.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-13-2001, 09:07 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I was actually looking at the driver IC itself. http://www.national.com/ads-cgi/view.../LM/LM1949.pdf
Grumpy, do you have any sources that I can e-mail about this?
edit: I noticed that this driver runs on 5v, not 12, or am I looking at the wrong source voltage?
1949 been dead forra a long time.
You need one of the Cherry Semiconductor jobs. Either the 453 or 451, I forget which is the TBI injector, and which is the port version (Both are Peak and Holds, the injector resistance is different)
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-17-2001, 10:52 AM #23
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dyno Don:
Edelcrock uses the 7747 to work on their muti port systen with 8 injectors. I think they said something like they set it up for double fire.
8 saturated works out to 2 TBI P+Hs electrically. So it's a no brainer to do that. In their chips they really just tinker with the AE because of the manifold differences.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-17-2001, 10:54 AM #24
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by hotpowerandperf:
The computer that looks like a 7730 and can fire 4 P/H injectors is the 7749 from syclone and QUAD 4. The Q4 used 4 P/H injectors stock. Getting this to run correctly in your application will be challenging.
HTH
John
Heart of Texas Power and Performance
Sorry, but that's a no go too.
TPI P+Hs are 2.4 ohms
TBI P+Hs are 1.2 ohms.
Given time and rpm you will take the injector drivers out.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2001, 02:56 PM #27
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/CS452-D.PDF
I found this, it looks like Cherry has renamed to ONsemiconductor. It says for the low impedance injectors ~1.2ohm, use the CS453 ic. Looking good, now I need to figure out how the stock ecm drivers work and I should be set.
Thanks Grumpy for the heads-up
Just remember at WOT, they are on alot of the time, so they get prety darn warm.
I've run some we'll just say different things, and had ecm case temps of 120dF. That's not enough you can't hold it too long, and too hot for the electronics. The switch poorly at too high of temps..
This is when your to the stage of needing to run one on an ecm bench for a few days, to make sure it doesn't fail in traffic. Seriously.
I've tested alot of ecms to distruction, and some of the bullet proof designs aren't what some folks think they are. And remember what ever you do, you need to do two.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-24-2001, 09:52 AM #33
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I was just thinking about a few posts about how the stock ecms were designed to control injectors. I was looking at some other post and it said that the edelbrock EFI kit is just tapped into the stock wiring harness.
So if the GM ecms can control either 8 saturated injectors (high impedance) or 2 peak and hold (low impedance ~1.2Ohm), why can't a TBI system use a TPI speed density ecm? This would give faster data stream rates and the ability to go with an eeprom yes/no?!!
Grumpy, your input would be appreciated....again...lol
P+H injectors run most effectively at 1-5 ms Pulse widths. Saturated at 2-10 ms. The TBI injector firing strategy fires the injectors alot more often, which means SHORT PWs. Ooops Saturated don't like short pulse widths.
The edlebrock uses saturated injectors. They just basically mess with the AE stuff in their chip. The improvement from TBI to TPI is substancial in THAT application, so people are rather easily statisfied. But, to get it correct takes a ton of work.
I have run a TBI of a TPI ecm, used the 8D code. Trouble was that while it ran OK, it was going to take alot of work to get really right. I burnt a couple dozen chips, and it just seemed like I really wasn't getting anywhere.
Seems like alot of folks are focusing on ALDL rates, which aren't that big of deal.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-29-2001, 05:05 PM #37
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
So Grumpy, are you saying that the Edelbrock PROM is messed with to change the output of the drivers so that the saturated injectors can live with the P+H drivers? Are the ms of the drivers changed for saturated injector use? like maybe BPW changes to make lonfer pulse widths for saturated use???
Ie, what did/do you mean by "change the AE stuff"
[This message has been edited by fast_broker (edited October 24, 2001).]
Geesh,
8 saturated drivers behave like 2 TBI injectors as far as LOAD.
I said effective operating ranges, iw where the injetor is happiest.
TPI is a dry manifold, so they don't need as much *acclerator pump* as a wet manifold does
Old 11-03-2001, 10:29 PM #42
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
I still wonder if the Edelbrock MPFI conversion uses (8) P+H or (8) Saturatd injectors. I just have to get on the phone to those guys. What is your oinion on this, grumpy? Are the P+H individual injectors common/cost effective for Edelbrock to use? Are all PICO injectors P+H or saturated, ie, is there a general rule???
The edlebrock TPI conversion uses saturated injectors.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-03-2001, 10:33 PM #43
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73:
AE? Acceleration Enrichment? (Pump shot, I assume?) I've heard about that - you need more fuel to help fill the plenum, otherwise you get a bog.... (?)
Ken
In EFI the are several parts to AE (yes, accleration enrichment).
The corrections are, and not limited to:
By delta TPS
delta MAP
Coolant temp.
Duration, and quantity
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-03-2001, 10:36 PM #44
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I was actually looking at the driver IC itself. http://www.national.com/ads-cgi/view.../LM/LM1949.pdf
Grumpy, do you have any sources that I can e-mail about this?
edit: I noticed that this driver runs on 5v, not 12, or am I looking at the wrong source voltage?
Last I heard the LM1949 was discontinued
Even the Cherry Semiconductor stuff is getting rare.
Beginning to look like some of the aftermarket co.s have cornered the market for what was left, on all fronts.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-03-2001, 10:43 PM #45
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by hotpowerandperf:
The computer that looks like a 7730 and can fire 4 P/H injectors is the 7749 from syclone and QUAD 4. The Q4 used 4 P/H injectors stock. Getting this to run correctly in your application will be challenging.
HTH
John
Heart of Texas Power and Performance
Sorry but no.
The TPI Peak and Holds are 2.4 ohms.
THe TBI Peak and Holds are 1.2 ohms.
But this will give you a P4 that will handle 2 TBI Peak and Holds.
Now if you look at the DIY archives you can find the pin outs changes to run 8D code in a 749. I do think you lose the TCC, but there are other answers for operating that.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-08-2001, 07:52 PM #47
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
I've been there and done the 4bbl thing. Unfortuantly I cant speak very technically on the subject but can speak as for how my system functioned.
I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if it has been touched on but to make the 4bbl work on two TBI injector drivers, they have to be wired in two sets of series... not parallel, not series-parallel, just two sets of plain old series.
Power? Great all the way up to 6k rpm (70's smog heads, performer intake, 219/227 roller cam holley 700cfm 4bbl with 65# injectors...in a 360ci motor). Ran 79mph in the 1/8th at 4500 feet... never got a good 1/4 mile time out of it due to a drivetrain vibration that was causing knock retard at about 80mph. So at 3600 pounds, (in bench racing mode now) the calculator says 265 rwhp here or over 350 hp corrected at the crank.
There has been plenty of theory tossed around and even some legitimate bench testing siting problems with 4 TBI injectors on two drivers... I can however say that my system worked even without custom tuning.
There is a huge difference from works to works correctly.
Some guys even have some really weird stuff run well, but that is the exception rather then the rule.
With the injectors you have you could be supporting well over 500 HP (fuel wise). It would seem at a glance that things are at least a little odd in that repect.
The series parrarel comment was in refernce to running 4 brl off of a 730 not 747.
I have no doubt you happy with your setup, but to infer that it's a proper answer is misleading, IMO.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-10-2001, 06:54 AM #49
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
Actually... although I know that neither you nor I am a great fan of holley... they rate that TBI unit for their kits to 400hp... the TBI unit with 85# injectors is the one they rate to 500hp. Yes, of course I know how to do the math to calculate estimated hp injectors can support... when drop the flow down because of maximum duty cycle and consider these are holley injectors that work well in the 10-17 psi range, you will realize they are in fact the correct size for a 350-400 hp application.
Wasnt trying to start a wee-wee match there grump... just wanted to let people know it worked, if you think its wrong thats fine, you are probably right but it did work on my car fully to my expectations.
Wasn't starting one.
just pointing things out.
Dunno but I consider guestions, and postings at formums etc as public information centers, and those asking a guestion are just the few that have the same guestion as many, so I tend to look at things as generally educational, where as most folks look at things as being a *personal* matter.
Oh well, please some of the people some of the time yada yada.
BTW, happy that your enjoying your EFI
-----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-09-2001, 01:37 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by padgett:
Maybe I have been asking too many questions - will stick to just one this time.
Have an advance table that starts out 00 20 0F (hex). As indicated it has 15 elements in each table. What are the proper kpa values that correspond to this table (ones I have seen have 12 or 17 entries).
[This message has been edited by padgett (edited November 09, 2001).]
try starting at 30.
increments of 5 to 100.
#5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by padgett:
Learning can sometimes be painful. Just realized the system I am working on is MAF and not MAP so the advance table "Y" max is 255 gm/sec max not 100 kpa. Start with 32 and step 16 sound right for fouteen intervals ?
Looking like a screwy bell curve though - max advance looks to be at about 3/4 of max flow and drops after that. Does this sound reasonable or am I completely sdrawkcab ?
Dunno about the sdrawkcab, since I didn't stay at Holiday Inn Express last night but you other table values sound about right.
On your bell curve, max advance is at like 1/4 throttle. ie light cruise,
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-11-2001, 05:43 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Pablo:
I accidentally purchased a 2 prong VSS sensor for my T5, turns out the TbI puter and etc uses a three wire sensor. What i can tell is the difference is the two wire generates its own power while the other is powered.. and the ground looks a little different. However both are 4000 pulses per mile right? I tried wiring it up anyways with just the output and the ground and left the power out (maybe i have the polarity mixed up on the sensor cuz its not marked) It doesnt work
Can it work? or do i just need to get the three wire sensor?
thanks
Pablo
[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited November 11, 2001).]
I believe you have apples and oranges here.
The TBIs I know of use the optical sensor in the back of the speedo. It is power, ground, and out.
The later cars use a 2 wire A/C generator that plugs into the tranny.
The 747/optical units are 2000 pulses per mile.
If you tranny uses a speedo cable then just getting a Speedo Cable Inline VSS will work. www.jagsthatrun.com probably as the VSS you want (the inline).
I'm pretty sure of what I've written forra double check talking to Jags the run or Riverside Speedometer in Riverside CA could verify what I've said.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-11-2001, 05:45 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Pablo:
I accidentally purchased a 2 prong VSS sensor for my T5, turns out the TbI puter and etc uses a three wire sensor. What i can tell is the difference is the two wire generates its own power while the other is powered.. and the ground looks a little different. However both are 4000 pulses per mile right? I tried wiring it up anyways with just the output and the ground and left the power out (maybe i have the polarity mixed up on the sensor cuz its not marked) It doesnt work
Can it work? or do i just need to get the three wire sensor?
thanks
Pablo
[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited November 11, 2001).]
BTW, designing a black box with a comparator, and flip flop might be an answer but the inline deal would be cost effective.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2001, 06:02 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by righton:
If they are please post phone number or email address . If they are not ready I would still like to place the order or get on the waiting list thanks JOE
You need to sub, and lurk along at www.diy-efi.org
Latest order of boards is shipping about the 20th. Just hang out and read thru the postings till the new info apprears.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-06-2001, 12:11 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by brharris27370:
I want to burn some chips and not mess with the stock chip other than the initial read. I know most of you are running the 256k chip for your TPI cars but not much reference to the 2732A that my 8746 ECU uses. This site has 3 different 2732A chips will any of these work. https://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/Jameco/home.d2w/report?search=&sort=&startRowNum=1&totalSize=66&cgrfnbr=616&cgmenbr=91&ctgys=502%3B513%3B616%3B&Next.x=28& Next.y =9
The chip burning 101 states that the 8746 ECU uses the 2732A prom chip but doesn't say anything about voltages and speed.
Speed isn't an issue.
Neither is the programming voltage as long as you know what it is.
Astro Market in FL used to have used eproms for $1-2 a pop depending on how many you buy.
I just always went the cheap used route and ordered plenty. Couple are always junk but at a $1 a peice you can afford that vs $3-4.
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2001, 11:07 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by gixxer92:
Has anybody modified their MAF tables? The grams per second is increased w/ the removal of the screns and cooling fins. Has anybody flow-benched the MAF after this to know what the g/s is?
I was looking for the "86 Camaro Eprom Data Table Chart" to look at it and work w/ Hex works to modify the MAf Constants to compensate for the increased air flow. Does anyone have it so I can do this, since it defines the hex addresses?
Yes, I have.
Unless you absolutely have to, don't.
In the archives here are numerous work arounds for calibrating MAF systems.
TPIS in there calilog list the alledged flow numbers for various modified intake stuff.
For the effort to hog out a MAF and get it right you'd be way ahead to just go with a MAP system. The MAPs are also a ton easier to tune.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-17-2001, 10:49 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
I am finishing my Board and need some help with part number Ps2501-1nec-nd. this is marked (Iso-1) on the board. Which way does it go in?
Thanks Austin
Various manufacturers mark the #1 pin in different ways.
If there is a really really tiny dot on the top of the chip that is closed to #1 and goes right by the "I" on the board. If there is a U shaped channel at the end of the chip, then that goes toward the lettering
--------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2001, 06:00 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89406Iroc:
I have a 89' Iroc with a 406 AFR heads, roller cam etc. The motor is pretty stout and I want to learn more about engine management on it. I have looked at doing my own proms but am checking to see if there are any piggy back systems that I could use. This would be my first jump into programming so I want something fairly straight forward but need to have flexibility. I have all winter to play so I'll hopefully be pretty comfortable come spring. Thanks Chad
straight forward and flexibility are contrary terms.
To be flexible means being more complicated.
If you want simple, and easy to use then figure on $3K for the Speedpro stuff.
reading thru the archives at DIY-EFo and GMECM will answer alot.
www.diy-efi.org
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2001, 06:15 PM
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2001, 12:12 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
I remember reading somewhere that someone had put together a parts kit for the DIY-EFI/DIY-WB project. Who do I contact? What is their address/email? Is that person selling at a reasonable price? I got the PC boards awhile ago and want to build them. If these kits are is no longer available or priced unreasonable, where is the best place to get the parts, Digikey?
Order kits here.
He's totally swamped at the moment, if your in a hurry then getting the parts from Digikey directly would be faster but probably cost more.
Steve has a real world life, and putting the kits together takes ALOT of time.
> http://208.37.117.207/korder.html
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2001, 10:38 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I'm thinking about junkyard hunting. I figure why not try since it's always an adventure. Might find one with few miles and only pay $10, who knows. A guy can wish.
Dats beyond wishing.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2001, 10:39 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Im ready to buy the Honda sensor used in the Wide band O2 sensor. What is the best price I can buy it for?
Around $120.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-24-2001, 02:28 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 93ND500:
I know it's not tech......but any thoughts on the next, if any, PROM burning get to gether??????
Propably Apr., but too early to tell. My world revolves around Drs., so I have to plan around them and can't forcast things that far into the future.
---------------------------
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-24-2001, 10:02 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by jester111:
Well I guess Ill start with an easy one for now. Ive read in many magazine ads that the mass air meter can be bought calibrated to the injectors,can someone please elaborate on that a little for I have found very little info. Is it increasing or decreasing the base pulse with,and/or a different parameter, and can that be tailored by burning a new prom?
For all the effort and tweaking for doing something like that, it's a heck of alot easier to go with a Speed Density system like the 90-92 use.
As you raise the level of tune you'll see how much a MAP system is to work with.
I have nothing against MAFs, and my car uses one, but it was alot of tweaking to get right, and I had some *help* to get this all done.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Old 11-27-2001, 07:18 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Lionsden:
My question has to do with tuning WOT and these three tables.
%TPS Threshold Vs. RPM for PE Mode
Main Fuel Table #2, % Volumetric Efficiency Adder
PE Air Fuel Ratio Vs. RPM.
How do these 3 tables interact or do they?
1) depending on application and driving style you'll want the engine to get up and go at different ranges at different throttle openings. With a loose converter you'll want early (low % TPS PEs) to get enough fuel and timing to get the car moving.
I tun something like
400 rpm 10%
1200 rpm 20%
2400 rpm 60%
3600 rpm 80%
Now if I tell you this is a turbo motor with a loose converter do things make sense?
2) When you first enter PE how much fuel does the motor need?. Enough to stop stumbling, and lean enough not to bog.
3) At WOT what air fuel ratios do you want as what rpm?.
Again, min reads
10.6
11.2
11.6
11.6
At lower rpn I run a slightly retarded timing, and dump fuel into the pipe, the exhuast temps drive high, and spool the turbo. As we get boost and the engine is off and running we back down to 11.6.
In a N/A car you won't want that rich thou
HTH
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2001, 08:21 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Lionsden:
Thanks Grumpy
In an over simplified description would it be in line to say that %TPS Threshold Vs. RPM for PE Mode and Main Fuel Table #2, % Volumetric Efficiency Adder are like the accelerator pump in a carb and the PE Air Fuel Ratio Vs. RPM similar to Main jets and WOT?
Sorry for the carburetor digression/comparison. Its just that I have worked with carbs for 30 years and just started efi tuning. Its a blast but a little confusing.
Ya kinda sorta,
once ya soend some time on the EFI stuff it will get ALOT clearer.
There are so many things similiar, yet more specific. You can compare the VE table to an emulsion tube, and then the various limiting devises to jets, but remember not to get too huge up on comparing the two.
Best thing is just to get in there and start making changes, and NOTE everything you do.
Then often reveiw your notes.
After a couple hundred chips you'll really understand what you know and dont know.
--------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2001, 09:16 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by formula5:
I am not that good a soldering.Luckily I soldered a zif to my memcal with no problems.
If your serious about EFI you might as well learn now how to solder. Just that simple. The traces on the Board are wider then necessary and spaced apart for blind old folks like me to be able to see with bifocals on.
No your AFR gueage needs a 0-1 output the WB uses 0-5.
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2001, 11:28 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by formula5:
What about the nordskog O2 sensor for the a/f guage.Would that be more acurate than the factory O2 sensor.The circut board diagram looked a little scary,but not too bad.But when I asked if the w/b parts was at radio shack there was no response.I guess I have two questions,grumpy.Can I get the parts for the w/b setup at radio shack?Could my a/f guage be acurate for tuning.My a/f guage has many bars that should show somewhat minor changes in a/f ratio.I guess more info on how a O2 sensor(&w/b) works would be nice.I like to know how things work,just getting it working is not good enough.
You probably could order things from RS, but they are expensive, try Digikey.
Look thru the last 4 years of the DIY-EFI archives and there is a ton of info about the particulars of how they work.
No idea what a Nordsko or what ever is.
-------------------------------
Old 11-21-2001, 12:51 PM #22
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Craig Moates:
I was thinking of having a PCB made up that would be very simple, just a 28-pin DIP layout on one side and a 30-pin socket or header row on the other. This would allow very easy connection of a ZIF to a ribbon cable for ECM use. With a little shaving, it could be used for direct ZIF/ECM placement on the header in the ECM.
Anyways, there's a minimum order to get the PCB made up of like 60 bucks I think. This could provide '18' pieces. That'd be like 3 bucks apiece or so. If anyone's interested in going in, that'd be cool. Just let me know, I'm not in any real hurry.
This is done by us pretty regularly by hacking into headers & splicing in legs on sockets, this would just be a cleaner way.
Good thought? If interest is there, I'll provide detail and alternates.
-Craig
I've tried similiar things only to give up on them.
Currently, I've had to trim my DS ribbon down to 6" to get rid of RF noise.
On the syclones they have some remote *selectable* eprom stuff that seems to work, and they limit the ribbon to about 12" as I recall.
The secondary side of the ignition generates a huge amount of RF noise. I'd bet in part the coil near plug stuff is to min RF.
Old 11-22-2001, 12:31 PM #26
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Sarkee:
How about an ECU extension??? I'm thinking the 7165 ECU, with it's two harness cables...Maybe an 18" extension...
I've been trying to do this for a couple months, but ruined one ECU header and screwed up another...(Them dang wires is too small for these eyes!)...
those work, I have used a 3' long extension to put the ecm under the passenger seat.
Also, makes tieing into the harness a no brainer, and you don't chop up the oem one experimenting.
You can buy the headers from
GMP Parts Company
(916) 685-1055
also about anything Weather pack related. Though best to buy quantity when possible. On terminals like for the ecm I get them in lots of 100. You'd be surprised how many you can use ..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
drive it is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2001, 12:48 PM #30
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark A 91Formula:
Anyone remember a PROM selector called PROMPAC? It would seem to me this would be the way to go. It would certainly solve alot of problems as far as chip access and the ability to test multiple chips would be pretty handy. I have a brand new unit unused, guy said it would work on TPI computers, only problem was it was for the 85 TPI computers which used the 2732 chips. Still have it packed away in a box, haven't found it since I moved.
Anyone know if the company who made it is still in business? Gotta dig it out, still got all the documentation on it.
I seem to remember seeing something similar advertised recently (Jegs? Summit?). It had a switch that you could slide to change between " full power", " Valet" etc. So how did they shield it? How long is their cable? And did it even work????
Usually not very well.
The better switchers, mount the bigger eprom right by the ecm, and have the cable for the switching as the extension piece.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2001, 12:05 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by prscarf:
has anybody installed an o2 sensor on one of the header tubes close to the exhaust port? if so which cylinder and did it make a difference. i am noticing my o2 is not giving me the correct readings until the engine gets to the operating temp. and think it is mounted too far (in the collector) from the heads causing a cooling problem of the combustion gases. i do have a heated o2 and it does stay in closed loop.
If it gets hot and goes closed loop that's all it needs to do. Do you have a good power source, and ground?.
Be nice to have a clue about what you're working on.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2001, 04:34 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by prscarf:
as i said i do have a new heated o2 and i works just fine, my concern is that the headers are cool during the winter months and therefore giving me false readings before reaching engine operating temp. the reason i say this, when the engine is first started in the morning it runs smooth in open loop, once it reaches 50deg c and hits closed loop the blm shows rich. the ecm compensates and leans things up but then the engine starts to run rougher at the same rpm. things clear up when the engine reaches operating temp.
All the oem sensor does is toggle over rich lean at .45v.
So no things are fine.
If you trying to actually read an AFR ratio with a switching type sensor you need to do further research about how the sensors actually work.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2001, 08:25 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 88 350 tpi formula:
I asked tunercat if they would be making a definition file for my other car. they said they had no plans to do so. so what I want to know...is there any way to create your own.
If you have experience with code figure about 9 months at 5-6 hours a day to go thru and comment the code.
You can build an ecm bench and the try *crashing* the chip, by looking thru it and make a change and watch a scan tood to see if the change was as you expected.
Programming 101 at DIY-EFI is about just brute forcing a hac. If you read thru a couple hacs you see there is some logic to the madness.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-01-2001, 09:28 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Well it's not my cat. I just gutted it and no improvement. My map values are all normal, the car doesn't overheat! Sometimes the car is hard to start, sometimes it starts right up but when it's hard to start it feels like it has too much advance. There is definatly something wrong with my ignition system, I just wish I knew what.
I could also be my injectors or fuel pump/filter. I might end up changing the filter again but I doubt that's the issue since the injectors look like they're working fine and the filter is only 6 months old!
Anybody know what would cause that damn SES code 42 to come on after it performs the self knocking test on the highway!
Could a bad ecm ground cause this?
For some reason the ecm isn't receiving the correct results, meaning when it adds the timing for the self test the engine isn't *knocking*, or the signal is being lost.
An open wire from the knock sensor.
The knock sensor itself.
To rich to knock during the test.
A really high octane fuel *might* mask the test, or your just too rich in yur calibration.
You may have been fine, and then with the winter brew fuel it messed you up.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-08-2000, 05:53 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Craig Moates:
OK, strange bytes figured out. Tried using little 486-75 laptop instead of the C-450-o/c desktop with the Pocket-Programmer to burn a couple chips and guess what? Every byte reads accurately through the ALDL post-burn! Looks like the faster computers can have some problems burning chips with the PP, even if they verify.
WOw, who would have thought.
Now if you could address the extra memory in the CPU, you could write on the fly.
On some pcms like the 8625 this is possible. On the **updated** 730 they have an extra chip that can be written to.
For a while I was wondering if you were just talking about the C3s where there is program stuff in the ecm itself.
You have no idea how neat this sounds to me.
-----------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 12-01-2001, 01:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Pablo:
Ive been reading Smokey Yunicks "Power Secrets" book.. its fascinating even though its ancient. Anyhow, he mentions some crazyness about air injection making more hp. According to him, the same reasons its used for pollution control purposes are also good for power because the spent gasses still burning in your primaries maintain a higher velocity. He says there are real hp gains to be made with a system like this and although it didnt go into detail he also said it was a bit tricky to do right.
This got me thinking about how easy it could possibly be to pick up some free WOT power since as far as I understand at WOT and any time after startup you have your AIR system directing air to the cat. I can see why partially, I assume if it ran through the primaries all the time (or at WOT) youd burn up the cat. Now what about those of us who run a "test" pipe but still havethe provisions to run AIR injection? Would making it so it would inject air into the primaries be enough to pick up power? Im sure that for those with cats and a pre cat cutout it would also be of interest to know if there was a way to adjust the settings in the prom such that the air valve directed air to the primaries upon reaching WOT for track purposes.
It got me to thinking of another idea that ive not yet really put alot of thought into. It involves using your standard pollution pump to pull vacuum from the crank case which should be worth power in itself and then routing the "exhaust" of the pump into the AIR injection tubes. Granted, I imagine the oxygen content would be lower than if you just pulled from atmosphere but you could always put a restricted air inlet from the atmosphere on the intake side of the pump.. Would also act as a vacuum limiter if the thing pulled too much (I still have no idea if it would be that efficient or even work well at all. At the least, i have seen a pollution pump converted into a vacuum pump that did pull quite a bit of vacuum, never saw it tested so I dont know how efficient it was.) Anyone have any thoughts on this crazyness?
can it work? anyone know what details about making it work smokey was talking about?
thanks
Evacuating the crankcase can be a good thing. Especially on a well sealed racing engine. On the street I never saw any HP.
Adding air to the exhaust is easy with a Moroso Air injection set up. One check valve per collector routed to crankcase, hey might as well try to generate some crankcase neg pressure.
In using a Smog pump, it seems like the pump takes as much HP to spin as what adding O2 does. ie it just breaks even.
Also the instant you add mufflers there goes the projected gains.
The street is very different from full out racing.
maybe things would be different with an electric pump but again even it takes power to run.
I tried adding air right up by the ports, and then down by the collectors, no gains, that I could accurately find from the mods.
there is just so much theory and race stuff that just doesn't pan out on the street.
In F1, they run the dry sumps wayyyy overspeed on the evacuation side to generate the neg crankcase pressure and for them it works extremely well. Even in some of the NHRA stuff it seems to help a little, but we're talking well sealed motors.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-01-2001, 09:31 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I like the theory but couldn't exhaust burning in the primaries also create some backpressure or turbulance since it has 2 directions to expand? I would like to know when the exhaust gas would actual combust depending on when the exhaust valve closes or opens. I like the idea of an electric vacuum pump and AIR injection system for a few reasons. Yes the battery and alternator with have to work harder but the battery is full of potential energy. NOT using it to it's fullest degree is a waste.
I've been thinking about this too for a long time ever since I took out my air pump.
An alternator can draw more HP to charge the battery then the HP you'll make in trying this on a street trim car IMO.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-01-2001, 07:47 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Anderson:
Currently, I'm looking at:
Stall Saver Spark Adv. on RPM Thresh. 1
" " " " " " " 2
" " " " " " " 3
Stall Saver Spark Adv. Off RPM Thresh.
IAC Learn Timer
Idle Speed Timeout Steps vs. Coolant Temp.
MAT Compensation Counts vs. MAT
Two things I'm working on are 1: on dec. the idle speed hangs @1300 for a few seconds and then drops to my requested 800 rpm. and 2: There seems to be too much correction for MAT as the BLM are somewhat rich at cooler MAT and go up to 138-140 when MAT goes over @130. The table lists "counts" as the variable but what are the "counts". The numbers on my chart are 128 counts from about the middle of the chart to max MAT. Thanks for any help.
This is a '730 ECM, $8d ver. X tdf.
Regards,
Gary Anderson
Gads, I've never seen anyone tinker with any of these. the first 3 are the extents that the spark will advance to keep the engine from stalling, that's why and engine "surges" when the stall saver is being used.
4 is rpm that "cancels" the stall saver.
I belive #5 is the refresh rate for IAC steps at idle.
You problem is probably in the DFCO stuff rather then the IAC area. There is a min idle, **hangup** on decleration based on rpm and / or VSS.
I wouldn't worry about the 130 MAT corrections. Do you often run those temps?.
If often are you sure there are no other problems?
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2001, 01:16 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by V8Astro Captain:
In WinBin there is a value that says EGR off %TPS threshold. If I set this to 0, the ECM will then leave the EGR off(?). So no change in throttle turns the EGR off right?
Right now it's set to 50, so 50% change in throttle turn the EGR off.
What do you think?
EDIT: I read an archived post a while ago and found some stuff on this. I just looked and couln't find it again. It was something about the EGR temp enable being inverted(?). So 01 in hex means it turns the EGR on at some rediculously high temp, correct?
Never ask me what I thik, unless you want the rants that go with it ..
Anyway, turning off the valve is only part of it, there are depending on the calibration your running timing, and fuel corrections that run with the EGR apply.
So the proper way is setting the temp to some ridicuous high enable temp, and then switching off the diagnostic flag.
Be sure to hunt around for the 42 code patchs
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-02-2001, 11:01 PM #29
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73:
Jon, after some digging, I found that (error) code 42 is something to do with EST problems. From what I understand (anyone feel free to correct me) the ECM goes through a "knock test" - it actually forces the engine to a high advance to purposely see if the knock sensor is working. (It forces the engine to knock.) If it doesn't, then it trips the code.
I believe the amount of advance to trip the sensor can actually be set - but if you have a bad sensor, OR if you're running too rich, you may trip the code.
The "code 42 patches" that Grumpy is (possibly?) referring to are part of the "Hiway747.zip" file on the GMECM site. It's the "esc_done" patch - it trips the bit that makes the ECM think that the test has *already been performed* and passed - and therefore can't trip the code. I would first talk to the GMECM guys and see if this patch can be applied to the '8746 ECM before you try it though. I believe it's primarily for the '7747.
I may (very well!) be wrong, but this is what I've read into it. Grumpy?
Ken
You got it.
Do the patch,
set the enable to 254d, 01
disable the flag.
If your working on a car TBI then you'll need to read thru the code and chase it down. I haven't read thru the whole car code but from the simalarities I would imagine it's in there.
Least that's the way I'd do it.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 07:43 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DANIELEK:
What benefits would I get by diabling VATS?
The less code you run the less likely for it to get fubar'd.
Simplicity is the key to design.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 07:07 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by nsimmons:
i purchased a 7747 off the net, the prom says
DELCO
ABHC
7737
i read the prom into the system and it seems to read fine in tuner cat.
but how come it says 7737 on the prom, what is that? shouldnt it say 7747
that's a service code number for the prom. If you use a scanner is should say scanner ID 7737.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-15-2001, 07:20 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
I logged a few 0-100mph runs and some at idle today using Craig's software. I must say, my confidence is going way up on this tuning stuff, once I dived in. When I look at all the variables in the .csv file not all of them mean anything to me at this point. I did see 3 knock counts on each run at the same 3700 rpm spot. Each time the knock retard was about 20d and recovered by 4800 rpm. I think I'll retard my base timing 2d and see what happens. Comments?? My WOT 02 readings were ~875-900. The BLM fine always stayed at 128 and the BLM coarse was mostly 135 at part throttle and as much as 149 at idle. Comments?? How do the fine and coarse work? What should I look for as far as the air/fuel ratio and injector BPW ms? Does anyone have a similar setup as mine that can give me rough numbers for the .csv variables on a "tuned in" car?
I realize I can't make big changes until I start burning proms...thats next, but I want to understand this end of things first. I feel like I've came a long way in a couple days and can now see how I will continue to learn and move into programming. My goal is to clean up any problems I have control over this week and take the car to a dyno for a baseline. I'd like to be able to look back in 6 months and reflect on what I learn. Thanks...please be patient, I'm sure I'll have a ton of ??? for you guys.
Never put all your tuning eggs in one basket.
NEVER
Always look at datalogging, as one element of gathering info.. Read the plugs, if you don't know how then learn, it's critical.
A stopwatch or GTech will give you more good data then dyno time. The Dyno does not have the airflow that the car does at 50 MPH. There are lots of things to effect a cars performance, and using a dyno masks may of them. For the $$$$$$$$$$$$ you spend on a dyno you can buy equipment for doing more meaningful stuff on your own.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-18-2001, 08:02 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve10:
Good suggestion, I'll try to get the book this week. Any comments on my question about the BLM? I've been searching past posts and I see alot about the BLM INT, but nothing on BLM fine & coarse. If my coarse is 135 and the fine is staying at 128 does that mean I'm rich and it's leaning me back to 128, or is it the other way around? Actually, should I be posting these kind of scanner interpretation ??? on the TPI board? I guess it has little to do with burning my prom.
There is no such thing as BL fine and coarse, I don't know who's yacking about that, but there have been several posts about these terms.
ANYWAY:
You have BL and Integ, as far as fueling corrections. BL is long term, Integ is short term.
If you BL is 135, and Int 128 then your just a shade lean, and a minor correction has corrected it. You **usually** fin the Int at 128 once things have stabilized, if not then you probably at the BL full correction, and just totally out of any more fuel correction.
The fueling corrections are short term, Int, and long term, BL (Terminology wise).
HTH
-----------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 08:07 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor J:
n.b. that group purchase was the second GP of boards (at least), so maybe the person who finished one was in on an earlier purchase.
ps - last time I looked at the archive, the DIY EFI board had recently become moderated - which seemed to dry up a lot of the pissing and moaning posts.
3rd group buy, all handled by the same guy.
That pissing and moaning was about the future of various other projects. Easy to dismiss something you have no idea of what it means.
It was the same non sense that forced the DIY WB off list and took 2 years to complete.
Amazes me to no end how folks that don't bother to get any facts are so willing to voice their opinion.
The detonation detection project (using ionization levels) is about dead now thanks to some pirate in Australia. We ALMOST had a fool proof detonation detection system for the DIYers. Maybe that doesn't bother you, but for those of us that were working on it, it does matter.
Go back a few years and look at what Programing 101 started (this list being a distant off shoot of it). Tunercat, ditto. The DIY-WB is continuance of that.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 08:18 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I ordered 2 boards WAY back when. They have my money, are they waiting for everybody's checks to clear or how's that working?
Yes. This isn't some for profit deal where there is a make-up to include people flaking out. It's a genuine PITA with the way folks double order, change email addresses bounce checks, etc.
The last GP didn't close to like the middle of the month, and the the boards were ordered. They also take time to get manufactured. Going by the original posting every date has been meet. The Boards began being shipped on the 30th of Nov.
Hopefully the US and Canadian orders will be shipped by the end of this week. Internation orders next week.
Again, all within schedule.
If you dropped in late on what was going on, there is no need to get antsy when you could have read thru the archives and gotten up to speed.
The extra boards are what the guy buys out of his own pocket to try and accomodate people.
the guys spending all their off time doing this stuff deserve alot of atta boys, not where's my parts. If they went to answering every darn peice of email they get from folks that didn't do their homework nothing would get done.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2001, 07:53 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Grumpy, the reason I made this post wasn't for you to tell us we're being a PITA. It was so we didn't have to be a PITA! You obviously don't see that and so I'd appreciate it if you didn't reply to this thread and would just let it slide. I haven't e-mailed them except when I told them I appreciated what they were doing.
Thank you for making me awair that there is a schedule of dates. I never heard of this and if I haven't heard of it I'm sure a lot of people haven't. I got the information about this wideband o2 project from the gm-ecm mailing list and thirdgen, neither of which have any post about these mistory due dates! If it's just on the diy-efi mailing list, please tell them to simply send it to all the lists and maybe a link would help the other people in the same situation as me.
Thanks
You want the info., but only if it's handed to you, but don't want to do anything other then hit reply, and want to gripe when you do get the info..
Then you want to know where the info is with no response.
Please tell me how this all is supposed to work.
Where is the info., to begin with?. yep, at the DIY-EFI site. The WB in and of it's self has nothing to do with the gmecm list. It's interface with a gmecm would, so yes, it in a way does overlap a little.
It's been mentioned here, that it is available from the DIY-EFI area.
Feel free to ignore this posting, since you'd rather not have the information, and I'm posting it for the others in your situation.
Amazing when someone tries to give you a hand when you ask for it you have nothing better to do then accuse them of calling you something when they haven't.
BTW, if I was going to call anyone anything, I would do it in a way that there was no doubt of what I was calling them. If I considered you a PITA, then I wouldn't even reply.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 09:31 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Highway Mode would be useless if they had to be right on. However, it seems that it is disabled on all stock chips. Some have said that this is because of the EPA. On the other hand, if it really won't work right without perfect tables, perhaps GM realizing that very few cars would have such, disabled it. Maybe it was a nice idea that they couldn't perfect in time for production.
EPA considered it a work around to get better CAFE numbers. Most gm codes have blood lines, and so the code just sits there, cause that's the way the original code was.
Also has to go rich ocassionally to keep the converter happy.
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-21-2001, 12:54 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken73:
Well, I'll give you guys a bone on the EPROM emulator. It's a project another one of my CrossFire friends and I started working on. (He's an EE, so I knew what to tell him.) I already had a few ideas that I tossed around with him and he's already built one and sent to me, but we've since abandoned that idea in favor of a new one. (I may still use it as a test bed though.)
The new one involves two EEPROM's - we're using EEPROM's because they *don't require battery backup* and yet they can be programmed easily. Simple enough, but the other part of the equation is he's developing code for a PLD (programmable logic device) that takes care of the bank switching itself, so that while one EEPROM is being read by the ECM, the other one is "empty" so to speak, waiting to be programmed by the parallel port. (I'm using the PP for speed, and because WinALDL uses the serial port. Nice simple combo.) Once the "empty" EEPROM is programmed fully, the PLD will simply switch banks. The newly programmed EEPROM will be the one that's being read by the ECM, and the one previously being read, will now become the new "empty" EEPROM. (It won't actually be empty of course, it just won't be read by the ECM.)
At first I wasn't in favor of the PLD, because I thought it was too complex. However, when your chip count goes from a gazillion chips to just three.. it's hard to argue. Not to mention, the PLD is easily programmed, and very small. It also makes routing the wires MUCH simpler, so PC board design can be highly simplified.
As to whether I intend to make this a commercial product or not depends on the complexity of building it, really. If it's a real PITA to make, and possibly beyond the scope of most DIY'ers, I will resort to making them myself. (I may do this anyway.) If it's something a DIY'er can make, I will release the routing for the PCB, as well as the code for the PLD and the software for uploading the BIN files to the entire device. My friend assures me it's a fairly simple thing to program the PLD and requires no external programmer. (I believe it's a simple serial interface that could probably be built onto the board itself.)
Now, the whole idea is that you'd have a relatively small board (3"x3"??) that you could have a 2" or so DIP-to-IDC connector, where the DIP would plug in IN PLACE of the original EPROM. A 25-pin plug would protrude from your ECM's case, which you'd plug into your parallel port. You'd hide the entire device INSIDE your ECM. Not only would the ECM casing provide excellent shielding, but since the EEPROM's basically replace the original EPROM, there's no need to open the ECM anymore. Program.... drive around.... stop, read WinALDL, make your changes in WinBin or TunerCat, then upload them (via software I will probably have to write unless Jonas wants to get involved.) The engine doesn't even have to stop, provided you didn't make any actual "code" changes, just parameter changes (fuel/spark/etc.) Ideally, you could have someone else drive your car per your instructions, while you sit in the passenger seat and tune!
No reason to buy an EPROM programmer OR an eraser, much less any chips.
The whole project is on hold right now though, as both of us (me and my EE friend) are unemployed at the moment. I can't really afford to spend on this right now.
BTW, yes, this *IS* for the TBI cars - it's geared towards a 2732A replacement.
Ken
You might touch base with Eric Amos (Mr Winbin) he had a really really slick one about to the stage of being released, last I heard.
It was targeted for the C3 ecms.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2001, 09:11 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Just a question on the Wide/band O2 project
What would it take to have a led readout of the actuall Air fuel Ratio? I would Like to put in my car permently. How long does the O2 sensor need to run befor the car is started so it wont ruin the sensor?
So far all there is a bargraph circuit floating around.
Just going power on with the key is fine
Personally, I just use mine when tuning.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2001, 07:07 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 88GTAChuck:
Probably not what you wanted but I thought I?d share.
https://www.safety-page.com/nedt/store.htm
Odd, using my WB, 820mv was 12.8:1
Hmm, and my WB agrees with a NTK WB, and is really close to one that has been compared to lab gases.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2001, 07:09 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Where Can the Bargraph be found? Do you know how many leds? Just want to know if it will be accurate enough.
So far I have two boards solderd up. Orderd the 02 sensor last night. Cant wait to try it.
Its an exciting time to be alive!
Grumpy, Did you try putting together The fuel injection kit. I missed the Group Buy
20 LED I think it's at DIY-EFI Incoming.
I have something really neat in the works . So I've just watched the Megasquirt from the side lines..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2001, 11:16 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greenshamrock77:
I think it would make more sense to make a simple circuit that would connect to a parallel port on a computer(since most dataloggers that I've seen connect to the serial port). Then write a C (or whatever) program that would display the A/F ratio. This would also allow you to incorporate this data into a datalogger like Craig's program (modified obviously). Having the info in the computer opens a world of possibility and flexability. I suspect the circuit necessary for the computer would probably be simpler anyway. Correct me if I am wrong, I'm not an EE, just a ME in training.
The simple thing is just using a DVM.
Simplicity is the key to design.
Data logging for the sake of data logging is more an ego item then a necessity of real life.
Remember you tune for performance, and monitor the results, not the other way around.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2001, 11:24 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
I guess I would need to do the conversion in my head really fast, in real time. My scan tool records the O2 mV output, and I am sure that is accurate down to 1mV, but come on. I kind of side with Austin on this. If you are going to go thru the trouble of using the WB sensor, then at least make the output in real numbers, as AFR.
You'll note there is a voltage conversion chart. If I'm out tuning, I'll look to see first where I'm at, DVM outout, and then see where that is on the chart and proceed from there. ie 1.6V being were I'm starting from, and look to see where I wind up with the changes I make.
Like ANY tool once you use it you get familiar with it and its use.
Want a AFR display, fine design one and we'll all use it. There is a big step from talking to actually doing. If you look at the output you'll notice it isn't linear, and it will take something clever to do it simply.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2001, 07:25 AM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Yelofvr:
I would be very careful to trust the A/F data presented for the O2 display on the NEDT website! If you actually review the datasheet for the Bosch ZrO2 based narrowband O2 sensors, you will see that the A/F ratio versus Vout does not agree at all with the table on the NEDT website. 14.2:1 A/F at 800 mV!!! Pleeeeeeeze!! Grumpy I agree with your findings. My engines O2 sensor has been showing me 820-840mV when I make best power. I KNOW this is nowhere near 14.2:1(what the web page shows) more like 12.5 to 12.8:1. Be careful of who and what you trust! Verify yourself!!!
The oem ones are so sensitive to EGT and backpressure, there is just no way to say a particular mv output from a stock sender is X-Y or Z, as far as AFR.
My own car, in which I've done plugs cuts, etc, and read the plugs many times had me fooled. Perfect coloring, no trace of detonation and I was in fact lean. Mind you I been looking at plugs for like 35 years now. That's why I harp on this stuff so much.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2001, 07:26 AM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
I would think you could use Edelbrocks LED bar system with some internal changes and such? Resistor changes? not an EE... They have told me that the inside of the box is pretty basic but that doesn't mean much to me. Never opened mine up...
It would take less work to design a new one, which in fact you would be doing
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2001, 07:29 AM #19
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 88GTAChuck:
Probably not what you wanted but I thought I?d share.
https://www.safety-page.com/nedt/store.htm
Those mv/AFR are way out of line from what I've seen, even allowing for EGT.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2001, 07:35 AM #20
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Some of us only have one car, I just thought, Leave the Wide band board in the car permently and Have a good looking led readout to go with it.
I have my *snow* car and the GN. I'm also cheap. I have to be clever to do the things I want to. So I had an extra bung welded in the exhaust and just use the WB when I'm tuning. $120 is alot for me. Why run it all the time to see that your at 15:1?.
The whole idea of the DIY WB is to make it affordable. Hence the DVM output. It could have been designed for the EEs to assemble, but the point was to get it available for everyone. And judging from the numbers, that is what's happening.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2001, 04:30 PM #27
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JoBy:
The first amplifier is just a voltage follower.
The second amplifier has one 50k potentioneter to adjust gain and another 50k potentioneter to adjust offset. So if you have a gauge with a scale you can adjust the amplifier to match.
The reson for connecting the other end of the gauge to 5 volts instead of ground was to invert left / right on the scale. I wanted green to be rich, not red.
To modify this circuit for a wide-band sensor I would replace the 1000k resistor with a 100k resistor. That would put the start value at 2.5 volts, wich is the AFR=14.7 point.
The WB O2 output is not linear.
You'd need use a PIC or some little processor to take the 2 slew rates into account.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-02-2001, 08:33 PM #31
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bowtie8:
Can you guys help me out.
I have the PC board for building the Wide band O2. But one of the DIY guys made up some kits from Digikey for all the parts and I need to get two Kits. Can you get me in the right direction.
I emailed ciciora@ciciora.com, but havent heard any reply yet.
Thanks
John
there have been alot of boards and parts kits sold. He'll get to you eventually. Remember this is just a few guys volunteering their time and energy to do this.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-02-2001, 08:41 PM #32
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Grumpy: Does it matter Where the O2 sensor is, in the exhaust? Will it be able to see changes , of the engines A/F ratio, better and faster If it is located closer to the engine.
I have mine behind the cat converter. With a good scope you can see individual cylinders firing up to like 3K rpm.
The operating temp of the sensor is like 800dC, so temp doesn't matter.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 07:52 AM #35
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bowtie8:
I havent sent in any $$ yet, I wanted to confirm that Steve is still doing the Kits.
Hey Grumpy, I am doing a big block coversion to fuel inj for a buddy. What do you think about running parellel injectors for each runner. I dont believe the 7730 Transistors will handle the current.
But what about the DFI,Felpro, or Haltech, Have you ever worked with this?
John
They did it in an interesting way in the ZR-1 vettes. When the *Secondary* butterfly opened, the turned on a second set of injectors that just ran at the same PW as the primaries. Really crude, but it worked, and as far as I know folks liked the setup.
I'm just too spoiled on GM ecms. I've owned a few of the others, but never installed one. They just are so primitive, in general.
I had the injector drives changed in my ecm, and I can't see a reason for doing things any other way in all honesty.
If you need more *drivers* how about just running another ecm for second set. For $35-50 a pop it's really hard to beat the oem stuff.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 07:35 PM #38
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Bowtie8:
I have never changed the drives in the ECM, Is it pretty simple, and what am I looking for, something that will handle approxomently twice the current that the ECM currently is using? I would have to pull the DATA sheet on the current stuff and find a better replacement. Is that what you did?
Thanks Grumpy
John
I had the injectors changed.
They were a Cherry Semi Conductor devise.
You might just by with a large Power MOSFET thou. talk is they work fine, but like I said it's a rumor. I did ecm bench test one for Hours and the temps were all reasonable, I lost track of the guy, but if it hadn't worked I wouuld have thought he'd write back.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 07:37 PM #39
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
Can anyone repost the link for the DIY-WB O2 sensor? Can't seem to find it readily, and I want to check it out. Thanks!
www.diy-efi.org
go to
diy-efi
then under projects
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2001, 08:08 AM #42
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott_92RS:
It cant be too hard. I bet it could be done with a PIC chip and 3 7 segment displays. I'm no EE either, and I dont have any experience with a PIC chip, but I've seen quite a few things done with these, and this seems like a real simple task. The PIC chip would have an array that stored voltages and A/F Ratios. It could take the reading and display the correct ratio. Doesnt sound too hard at all, maybe someone out there who knows how to program PIC chips can help out with this.
It gets to the point of why?.
You can build a LED bargraph, and at a glance tell where things are *out of the corner of your eye*, vs having to focus on it. If you want to better understand whats really going on then you need to catalog it.
Once you actually use it for a while, you'll be able to make sense of the voltages as well as true display. It doesn't matter what the output is so long as you understand what it means. Using a voltage for AFR display is no different then reading temp in dC or dF.
Personnally I consider the sensor too expensive to just have it installed all the time. I have a short harness and a bung welded in just behind where the converter was, and remove the plug, insert the sensor, loop the harness over the floor board and set the stuff on the passenger floor board, and then the meter in an easy to read area.
next up is adding a small data logger for recording the TPS and sensor output. Then I can compare that to a Diacom or some other engine data logger to see where things are.
this isn't an exclusive replay to you, just things as I see them.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-06-2001, 08:42 AM #45
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT 88IROC350:
I find the WB project at the DIY-FI website. Where do I find posts on the sensor, the same webpage? I looked at the parts and some of the schematics, just couldn't view the circuit on one page to get big picture of what it does. I could get all the parts from work, and make up a little wire-wrap board to build the circuit. But the sensor cost really got me. I think I will pass on this project. I am sure it is an accurrate sensor, but for $50 I can get Autometer's AFR gage, which has 20 LED's ranging from .050v up to 1.00v, in 3 colors. I am not really concerned what the AFR really is.
I just want to see what the O2 is doing, how it is working, and where I am in the AF spectrum. Also helpful in telling open loop closed loop, and highway mode/ WOT conditions. Anyone have experience with it?
If you want to just see flickering lights there used to be a diagram for one at the GnType site, and for less then $10 you can make one of those. Won't tell ya a darned thing about open loop closed loop, just if the O2 is kinda wake.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-06-2001, 12:50 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Momar:
What is the difference. It seems that I recall them being interchangeable. Was one f-body and one vette? I could be totatly off but thats why I am asking huh.
Thanks
Ben
Electrically they are the same.
Trouble is the 727 is a weather resistant version, and the pinouts and connectors are different from the 730. You can the same code in each, but the I/O stuff is different.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2001, 10:15 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
I dont know whats wrong. The Led wont light up. I have 12 volts going to J3 and J11. J4 and j12 I have hooked to ground. O2 sensor is hooked to Ht- Ht+ , Vs, Ip and Vs,Ip ground. When I put 12 volts to J3 and J11 it sparks but not a like a direct short. When the DVM is hooked up to J12 and J8 it reads a constant 12 volts.
Any Help would be appreciated
They need 14v at 2 amps to light up.
Is your output reading about 2.5v?.
It's best to use a dummy load at first, say a brake ligh bulb, or heater element out of a old 3 wire O2 sensor.
Does the sensor get hot?.
Careful they go to like 800d **C**
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2001, 10:18 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
I dont know whats wrong. The Led wont light up. I have 12 volts going to J3 and J11. J4 and j12 I have hooked to ground. O2 sensor is hooked to Ht- Ht+ , Vs, Ip and Vs,Ip ground. When I put 12 volts to J3 and J11 it sparks but not a like a direct short. When the DVM is hooked up to J12 and J8 it reads a constant 12 volts.
Any Help would be appreciated
The LED doesn't go on till the sensor heater is actually hot enough to be working.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2001, 08:33 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Thanks Grumpy,
When the Light didnt light up I Unhooked the power. I thought somthing was wrong and I didnt want to ruin anything. The longest I ran it was about 5 seconds. Probably no long enough for the sensor to heat up. I will work with it some more tomorrow morning. How long does it take for your led to light up after you turn it on?
The Vout reads 12 volts.
[This message has been edited by AustinT (edited December 04, 2001).]
Vout should not be 12v!!.
Very careful double check your work and look for a *bridged* trace
My little power pack won't supply enough v to run it, I have to use it in car for it to get hot enough. Takes about 30-45 secs, some take as long as 2 mins..
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-06-2001, 12:54 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Hi Grumpy,
, I hooked up the board again. somthing was wrong because it went up in smoke. I couldnt tell what part was burning. I have another board that I hooked up. I also tried another vehicle that put out 14 volts. With 14 volts going in the board, the heater output is 5 volts. The Vout is 2.5 volts . I left power to the board for several minutes and the sensor did not get hot and the led did not light.
That's not good.
Would you mind sending me the fried one so I can look at it?. maybe I can see what's wrong here.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-06-2001, 11:21 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT:
Hey Grumpy I have good and Bad News.
I was about to send both boards to you today but I decided to try it again. I hooked up the board that didnt burn Up, The one that was having problems with the heater. The regulator wasnt putting out enough voltage. I read and re-read the construction notes. Stupid Me, I had the regulator In backwards.
I turned the regulator around and tested the heater circut with a brake light. The brake light slowly lit up unil it was on full power. The heat sinks became warm. I was really excited so I hooked up the O2 sensor. The Voltage read 2.512 volts and the heater became hot, Way hot. The led never did light up. I decided to try it in a exhaust. First I used a Dodge Dakota. I held the sensor up inside the exhaust pipe. The voltage moved only slightly. I then Had another person rev the truck. The Voltage dropped to 2.2 volts.(Seems like it was working) I then decided to try the 89 camaro with the Holley. I agian held the O2 inside the Exhaust pipe. 2.512 volts. I had another person rev the car, It always stayed at 2.5 somthing volts.
What do You think? Seems like it was working on the dodge, but not the carbureted car. What could be the Problem with the Led?
I Know Im close, Really excited to get it going
Hmm, you make 2 guys now that have done that.
Anyway, you need to get the sensor a foot or so up the pipe to begin to get any valid reading.
Try screwing it in where the oem one goes.
Depending on the exhuast system, you can have a problem with a too cool exhuast, so it winds up cooling the sensor off and that confuses the *cell*.
Just wait till you get familiar with using it
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-06-2001, 11:32 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron's 87:
A friend wants me to play with his 95 supercharged 3800. Tunercat has a 5B file for it. Has anyone played with that definition before? Is there anything special I should know about with the S/C motor? Thanks.
Get ahold of Terry Kelley and get a GMEPro for that.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2001, 03:36 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ViciousZ:
I've just started to take an interest in PROM burning and now I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna finance all this equipment I want/need. Anyway, I've got an old Snap-on scanner that I use to diagnose the TPI. But I've heard Diacom is much better for PROM burning.
The Snap-on that I've worked with didn't do any data logging. There are times when having the ability to log stuff is nice, nice doesn't mean necessary.
If you have something your already familiar with, no real big sense in having to changing.
EEPROM, stuff has been completely covered in detail several times in the archives.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-06-2001, 11:30 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by blue72:
So I'm working on an EPROM emulator that piggybacks the calpak and allows the user to modify table entries on the fly. Multiple calibrations will also be supported. The unit will be accessed through a serial port from a laptop. Once I get this thing working, I'm thinking about selling these things.
I'm just trying to get a feel for how much demand there may be for something like this. I'm still in the very early stages, and haven't made up my mind about the software interface yet. At the very beginning, I suppose you'll just have to supply an entire .bin file, modified with your favorite .bin editor.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Anyone in the Denver area want to help me out in the future (next summer) by testing one in his/her car?
-Jason
I'd strongly advise running the begibbers out of something like this on an ecm bench before anyone tries it on a car. Having an IAC, fuel or spark table miss read in traffic can be at least dangerous if not lethal. What can be fine at one temp might go silly at another.
BTDT
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2001, 05:11 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ragin'87:
I've come to the conclusion that it's going to cost way too much for me to get my current laptop to run with WinALDL.
What kind of laptop should I look into?
I just use 486/25s
The ones I used were happy running GMEPRO, PP, and Diacom. Best ones I have, one was $20 and the other free.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-23-2002, 06:07 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by AustinT
I didnt build mine from the Kit So I cant help you out much. Look Under the www.Diy-efi.org for a picture of the complete board. Hope Yours turns Out OK for you. I Have built 2 so far and neither worked. I put the voltage regulator in backwards and I think it ruined somthing on the board. The first Board went up in smoke. The second board shows a constant voltage output of 2.5 volts. Good Luck
Is that 2.5 with the sensor installed and in car?.
If you input voltage is low or the exhuast *cold* they will stay at 2.5.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2002, 08:53 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Re: anyone?
Quote:
Originally posted by highhat
"does anyone sell a completed circuit "box" (with sensor, too?)so that we can buy it and add a WB sensor and we are good to go???"
Any one????
Part of the porject was making it educational.
The kit was designed to be as basic as possible so the average guy could do it. If your going to be into EFI you might as well get used to some simple electronics kits. Subing to the DIY-EFI list gets you plenty of support for getting it up and going.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
-------------------------
Old 12-11-2001, 11:05 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87ROCZ:
Ok...I have come across a couple of EPROMS and I was wondering if somebody could tell me if these will work...
27256-20
27256K -- got two of these
27256-15
27256AD-15
27256-IDC
27H256
27128-25
27C256 -- got two of these
27128A-2FI
the thing to do is just try them, some of the suffixs look odd, but just start working with them with the lower programming voltages, and work your way up til they program.
---------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-28-2001, 08:14 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TRAXION:
The time has finally come. I will probably be going for my IM240 treadmill test next week. !EGR, !AIR, !Cats, 230/245 cam. Holy crap is this going to be interesting
I've decided to see what I minimally need in order to pass. In other words - I will roll into emissions and try to pass with only PROM changes and some CRC G2P in 1/8 tank of gas. If that doesn't work then I will do the same thing but put my real cats back on the car. If that doesn't work then I will have to put the stock cam back in. Anyhow, I am looking for suggestions on PROM changes. I have already made the following changes to my 'IM240.BIN' - lol - ...
1) Fan temps set high in order to keep the car hot.
2) Bumped Injector constant up *slightly* in order to lean it out a bit across the board to help HC counts at the expense of other counts.
3) Bumped maximum added advance DOWN to 16 in order to keep maximum advance at 26 and under (my base timing is at 10). This should work hand in hand with #2 in order to have the engine utilize less fuel.
4) Disabled PE via %TPS to enable PE.
5) Disabled highway mode.
6) Bumped idle up to 1000rpms (to help disguise my rediculous lope).
7) Bumped my pumpshot down to control off-idle richness that could occur during throttle opening.
Any thoughts?
Tim
Fresh oil change
Good long drive immediately before the test.
Lots of in tank help.
If that doesn't work, huge FRESH cats.
Double check the tune, look at the plugs and note what needs done, fresh cap rotor.
PLUG WIRES, spray em with water using a plant mister, to make sure they are 100% good.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2001, 11:46 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Momar:
I know that this is not totaly prom related, but I thought that since you guys see what all of the functions in the comp are you might be able to answer it. What all sensors are required on my 85 t/a that origionally had an lg4 to allow the converter to lock up. I am in the process of taking the lg4 out to put in a 350. Will I have to keep all of the computer controlled stuff or could I just keep some sensors so that my lockup would work. Thanks for your help.
Ben
Shame you've given up on the CCC. they can be made to run well.
But to answer your question. TCI, and B+M make little controllers for TCC lock up.
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2001, 11:09 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by doc:
I have an '87 IROCZ with L98. The 32B ECM from tunercat shows a fuel map BPW Fuel Vs. Load... The 6E ECM shows no fuel map with the ARAP.bin or the factory .bin file...
Why is there no fuel map with the 6E .bin files???
There are just rows rather then a map with the 6E
look for a scaler and then entries of like 13 (?) there is a set of 6 of them to compose the grams / sec readings.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2001, 11:24 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DAVECS1:
First off hello! Long time reader first time poster.
I have burned many chips for my GTA and I have used many tips from this board. It is a great referance. Well today I purchased a vortech supercharger. It comes with a piggy back fuel control unit. Making it possible to install without modifying the ECM.
My question is would it be feasible to do the following.
purchase a two bar map sensor from a GN
Then modify the VE tables by turning down the resolution on the KPA side and creating an axis that has negative and postive pressures. Am I simplifying this to much? Does the ECM not have the ability to read a positive pressure output. Will the checksum calculate right if the KPA axis values are changed? Is it possible to modify an axis and still have the ECM be able to interpet.
I realize my question probably needs to be more pointed, but I will appreciate any advice anyone is willing to give. It is not a big deal I just thought it would be neat to not have to clutter up my bay with extra controls
MAP is Manifold Absolute Pressure. There is no positive, and negative. 0 K/Pa would be an absolute vacuum.
You don't want to clutter up your bay, but po po'd the 749 idea, it's your best answer, or run the syty code in your 730. Most the stuff lines up but you'd lose the TCC.
Checksum just a value, it doesn't care what you change just so long as the numbers tally up.
---------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2001, 03:48 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Doint that correctly would mean knowing the code for your application very well, and how to patch it to do that.
Generally folks tune for WOT in 3rd, and just consider that the lesser of all evils.
If you racing at Bonneville the you'd want 4th right and gear accordingly.
If you're using a 700R series of tranny that worsens the situation due to the silly 1st gear ratio they use.
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2001, 12:10 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by formula5:
Mike is right and grumpy is wrong.On maf cars the maf table 1 will fix your lean problem.Look w/ a scan tool what your gram/sec is at idle.Then see on maf table one where the gr/sec is vs the counts.Take your idle reading and move it one count up on the table at a time until your running right..
When you have a better grasp of what your talking about before you might try making a call about something.
There is a huge difference from getting something to work, and getting it to work correctly.
Fudging the MAF because you have changed injectors and twisted the pressure way up isn't a correct move, to start chipping with.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2001, 11:46 PM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by formula5:
Keep in mind telling someone they are wrong is not degrading.Unless you have too much bravada.
The trouble is that you've made the error, if you were to sit down and look at the original posting you'd see where the error is. Just twisting values around to get things close is one way to do. Yep.
However, there are more correct ways.
I really don't care who you are, if someone asks a chip guestion, I'll answer it with the best info., I have available.
If you want to discuss something, fine, hitting rely and making a poorly informed statement gets you nothing.
There is no attitude in what I write, anything you see like that is because you reading something into my posting.
Different injectors have different flow rates. At the smaller PWs, they can be not very linear. This is also where the battery voltage corrections come into play. If you change injectors, the the first thing you'd normally do is change the injecotr size in the code, and Then look at what you have.
If as in his case, there is a low rpm problem, then the most common item to ACTUALLY NEED to be corrected is the battery voltage correction. If you make a fuel change then you'd want to make a fuel correction. If an air flow change then an air flow correction. These are where you need to start. Changing fuel corrects with an air change can be done, however, don't be surprised if in the cold run routines, or AE stuff there is another problem.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
formula5 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-14-2001, 07:32 PM #21
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by formula5:
I have devised a way to acuratly put my 400 airflow stats in the maf tables.
So your talking about one specific engine, unlike the one that started this thread.
Sure helps if you stay on the same page.
If you stay at the ship biz, for another decade, you'll still be a decade behind me in time I have in chips.
I don't make these comments lightly, and misappling the info., is misappling it.
The only *universal answers* I've made here are in the *final answer* postings. The reason for this forum is for guys to gather info., for their specific application. You'll note my answers do vary a little, as they are specific to an individual.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-14-2001, 07:39 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by drive it:
[/b]
The 615 and 730 ecm's save the blm and use it in wot; on your's I'm not sure, but I can't see why it wouldn't also. Anyone else confirm this?
[/b][/quote]
Have you actually gone thru the code?.
Remember scanners sometimes lie.
the only way to be absolutely sure of what an ecm does is to go thru the code, ie not the short hacs that name the variables. Some of them are even bogus.
Gm uses 1 of two strategies.
A rich correction for PE, or locked at 128.
A scanner may show other then that, but again that's just what's reported on the ALDL commo.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-14-2001, 07:49 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
I have found from all of my "experimentation" with spark advance that the first place I seem to detect "knock" (when I just cross the line of too much spark advance) is during the upshift. Sounds like you are finding the same thing.
I am debating about writing an "upshift retard routine" for my SD to see if I can get a few degrees more. But it really is showing that I have too much spark advance and my engine is telling me to "back it off" a bit.
What is your "effective" total spark advance right now? I am finding that with my stock L98 heads 28-29* is about the MAXIMUM EFFECTIVE spark advance (after deducting the knock retard) that I can run without causing "knock" to occur.
Sometimes it is better to back off the spark advance a bit and go for long term durability than trying to get an extra couple of HP and shorten your engine's life. Also, if the "consistency" of your gas is questionable, you may wish to consider that too. Where I live we get 94 Octance and the gas is very consistent, but I know that when I travel into the US that my car will ping like crazy @ WOT with 91.
Now, if I am planning a trip to the US, I will purposely burn another prom just to avoid this issue (lower quality gasoline). I accomplish this by using a "piggy-back" where the "piggy-back" has the slightly more aggressive spark advance and the Memcal will have the more conservative spark advance. Then, if I find I have to use a lower octane of gas or if I got a bad tank, I just disconnect the "piggy-back" and run off the more conservative Memcal.
]
BKR as a function of VSS
--------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-03-2000, 07:51 PM #23
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
how do you think that this injector setup with the 90lb units will work with a vortec victor jr intake and gm hot cam? I know that you are an advocate of the single plane intake for tbi units.
Best SBC single plane that I've run was a Weiand 7525, real nice manners and has an EGR valve pad, painted black really stealth
90s take work on a 355 SBC
Wound up using two Fuel Pressure Regulators
one vacuum referenced (one acts as a limiter, since there is too much range in PSI).
----------------------
snflupigus is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-09-2000, 10:15 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
Ok, Ive got a lot of pics taken now. If somebody could though, send me a pic from straight on from the front ,of a NON drop base on the tbi, Just the base without anything else on it. I have a drop base, so i want pics of both.
Also if somebody has pics of an aftermarket breather, that would be nice too. and pics of the stock assembly peices, mine are demolished. and close up pics of the iat installed in the stock base, top and bottom showing the clip, so i can describe how to remove it from the stock base. and a pic of the metal hose coming of the exhaust manifold too please, i threw that away.
Thanks to all, just send em to my email, or post links here. thanks
ill write the article this weekend, hopefully along with the injector chart and information about injectors too.
o yeah, and since ive got my tbi dismantled now, i will take pics of process,before and after of the ultimate tbi mods.
[This message has been edited by snflupigus (edited November 07, 2000).]
On a BBC 2" bore TBI the best perfornace I got was with a Moroso drop base cleaner, 2.25 K+N with a Truck Air Cleaner Spacer
-------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-21-2000, 09:56 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Zant69:
Why doesn't anyone talk about the edelbrock pro flo? (the triangular one)It gets air from the sides AND top...the regular open element cleaners only get air from the sides. Is there a reason that air should only come in from the sides? I have a 14" by 3" K&N and a edelbrock pro-flo...and I couldn't tell a difference between them. But, an advantage with the edelbrock was that the edelbrock is small, easy to fit in there, NON-drop base, and gets air from all directions.
just wondering..,Thanks for any info...
Brant
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/...aners/1002.jpg
It's just about good enough to catch small rocks, IMO.
Best air filter I found for the TBIs was using a Moroso 14" drop base with a GM truck 3/4" spacer ring between the housing and TB
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-24-2000, 05:20 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tas:
If I can get a Cadillac Northstar engine complete for like $1500 should I? I heard my aunts STS last night and it sounded like it would be a pimp engine to have loud a-ss exaust on. Has anyone heard of this being done in a 3rdgen with all the emissions stuff on? 4.6L 300hp stock. hmmm...
I think the Northstar is a different bellhousing and engine mount pattern then the *normal* GM.
If you have the talent to get that PCM right, then it sounds like a nice conversion.
That PCM expects to control the tranny, not big issues, but not a plug and play by any means.
If that 1500 doesn't include the PCM, and full harness, you have alot of work ahead of you.
My 2 cents
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2000, 02:17 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Taylor92RS:
I have an ADS superchip in my relatively stock 92 RS with a 305 TBI. I know this chip only works at full throttle but how much does it advance the timing when it does kick in? And also, considering the answer to this question, how much could the timing on the car be adjusted manually and still not overdue the timing at full throttle?
Most of the aftermarket chips are border line laughable for what they charge and do.
Some rely on running a 160dF for the sole timing and fuel changes.
Some add like 8d timing every where and add 8 degrees to the retard limits, net gain you might see a few degrees extra, BUT the knock sensor always pulls out a few degrees more then a properly tuned chip would be running.
Needless to say after buying a bunch of aftermarket ones with no real gain, I started doing my own
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2000, 01:20 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by pianiy:
After driving around with a deteriorated fuel line in my tank causing low pressure for 5 months I've finally got the pump and hose replaced and can spin the tires from a stop any time I want! I finally get to experience some real power, when I bought the car in June it was good but then the pump started going and acceleration just sucked after that.
Problem now is that I've gotten three codes out of it: 23, 32, and 34. MAT sensor, EGR, and MAP sensor. Haynes has a possible vacuum leak as a problem listed for every one of these codes, along with a defective ECM and open/short in the circuit but I have to check into the possibility that the TBI unit has no leaks. It starts harder in the mornings now too, something else that confirms my suspicion. Anybody's thoughts on this?
I'd start by pinching each vac line by the throttle body, and yes sounds like a vac leak or the EGR not fully closing.
If #6 spark plug shows some oil on it, then probably a leaking intake manifold gasket, might try tightening it up and see if its real lose.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2000, 02:03 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by simon:
My 89 305 TBI idles @550 rpm. Is this normal for this engine or is it too low? Is there a way to increase this. My car seems to idle a little rough when at lights. If I put it in neutral it goes up to 750 rpm.
Probably about time to clean the IAC passageways in the TB, and then reset the min idle speed. yes there is an adjustment, but it's hidden behind a tamper proof plug.
A sharp awl can remove the plug, looks like a 3/8" freeze plug, by the linkage.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2000, 03:38 PM #3
Eggplant Jeff
Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Manassas, VA, USA
Posts: 180
iTrader: (0)
There's a procedure for setting the minimum idle, I highly recommend getting a Chilton's manual, but here's the procedure in a nutshell (first clean the IAC passages by spraying sensor-friendly carb cleaner down the IAC passage while the engine is running).
1. Remove that little plug mentioned above. A sharp screwdriver works.
2. Get a torx bit, I think a T25 but I'm not positive. That's what you'll use to adjust the idle screw (revealed once you remove the cap covering it).
3. Put the car in diagnostic mode (ground the pins in the ALDL connector, there's a document on how do to this in the tech section, you do it if you want to read codes too).
4. Turn the key to ON but don't start the engine. The IAC valve will close, give it about 30 seconds to make sure it's closed all the way.
5. Disconnect the IAC valve.
6. Take the car out of diagnostic mode and start the engine (may have to push the gas pedal down while starting. If it'll start, then dies as soon as you let your foot off the pedal, go turn the idle screw a few times to hold the throttle open farther).
7. Adjust the idle screw until the engine is idling at 450-500 RPM. This is the MINIMUM idle, the computer will keep the idle speed higher than this during normal operation.
8. Turn the car off, reconnect the IAC, go drive around for a bit so the computer can reset the IAC (drive at 30-40 mph for like 5 minutes).
9. See how it idles. If it's still idling too low, start checking other stuff (tuneup time maybe).
The computer regulates the idle speed based on a number of things, particularly temperature. But normal idle after the engine has warmed up is 600-700 for most people. It will probably idle a bit lower in Drive than in Neutral/Park.
Eggplant Jeff is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-28-2000, 11:14 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by mike ghoul:
On two occasions now I've gotten some knock while at full throttle near 5000 rpm in second gear. The weather has been relatively cold each time. I'm not really all that worried about it, but just was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on it.
I just recently installed an AFPR at 15 PSI, and have noticed a decent power gain from it, I'd never had any problems before this, so I figure it is the reason. It's only happened twice, so what the hell I'm just adding some 104 octane booster and not messing with anything. What do you all think?
Cold air demands less timing then warmer air, with 52-70dF consider average temps.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2000, 12:08 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by GhoSSt:
Hey guys I have a 400 here fresh from the machine shop with a custom comp cam, Dart
Iron Eagle heads (215cc intake, 64cc chamber), and I'm trying desperatly to figure out what to do about fuel delivery.
Its going into a 1993 Caprice with TBI. This car currently has the L05 with the 9C1 (police package). So I have the 65lb injectors, etc..
Do you guys think that this TBI setup will support the new engine to its potential? I'm
only spinning it up to about 5700rpm and
the TBI system is BONE STOCK, none of the
Ultimate TBI stuff yet, other than to throw
away the thermac riser that was included on the B-body. Any thoughts?
(BTW) I know I'll need a custom chip, probably from Howell, since they're REALLY into TBI. But what about the TB itself? Will it hold up or do I need to go to the Holley one? My air cleaner has 2 studs, one on each side, not the central stud like you F-body guys have, so I may have fitment issues with the 670 Holley.
To reliably support 325 with my 355 I had to go with 2" bores, and the early BBC injectors. My car was light, and needed ALOT of AE to get her going. Good running 400, I'd go with the early BBC TB and tune from there.
Unless, all you want is all the grunt in the world at low rpm.
Might also run out of manifold.
Single planes with TBI are fun in my book.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2000, 01:30 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott C:
Has anyone had experience with the Edelbrock multi-port fuel injection setup for TBI? I've been seriously considering this for my 350. It uses the existing computer, existing TB for air only and squirts fuel direcly into each cumbustion chamber just like regular MPFI. Edelbrock says they gain 25hp just by switching to this setup from standard TBI.
I have a 670cfm TBI, so I would think that would be plenty of airflow for 350hp or so. The fuel supply would be no problem either. I also have Edelbrock's 6085 heads which will make it a matched setup.
What do you guys think? BTW, it's only $900 including 8-injectors! It would still be considered TBI, right?
Only one I know of uses the 747. Which really isn't designed for TPI, and you wind up with a rather mismatch of parts.
That and they really didn't look to get to clever in the chip to run it.
Take the 900 and go with a late MAP system.
Or get the Ebroke system and then wire it up for the 1227730 ecm.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2000, 02:11 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott C:
I have a friend who has a brand new GM '92 TPI harness, so that's easy, but what about this 1227730 ecm? Why would the Edelbrock system not work with the ecm it was designed for ('90-'92)?
And I've priced the alternative:
TPI Harness $250
Injectors $400
Big Mouth $500
Runners $300
Plenum $200
52mm TB $350
Fuel rail $ 50
Fuel pump $100
Custom chip $350
Total: $2500!
I figure I can do the Edelbrock MPFI complete for far less than 1/2 the price, so where's the disadvantage?
$2500 is for a system capable of 500 HP easy, you'll never see that with the $1200 setup.
For a stock TPI to match the same HP level as the Edelbrock
$50 for the harness (I've bought 4 at this price, takes shopping)
$50 for the ecm (bought dozens for this)
$200 for the software and burner
$250 for an oem intake complete (have bought and sold a few for this)
$109 for a real fuel pump (for a 600 HP walbro 340 is fine)
To get you edelbrock really right will also take the $200 for software etc.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2000, 12:23 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
O.[/b]
You need to have a goal in mind.
There are lots of issues, if you want a well mannered 325/ 350 wither TBI ot TPI will do it just fine.
HP is about burning fuel.
You have two ways in which to make it burnable, atomization, and vaporization.
And you have two areas of concern. Low speed and high speed.
At low speed the TBIs use atomization, ie notice how well spacing the injectors up can help. Then at higher speeds when you lose the shearing effect of the butterfly you need to have vaporization come to your aid, notice how involved the runner heating is with the coolant.
On a TPI while there is some atomization, the injector is usually blowing the fuel against a closed intake valve (BTW, the backside temp of the intakes is in the neighbor hood of 600dF. So that does an excellent job of vaporizing the fuel, even in SEFI GM blows the fuel at a closed valve.
The oem bummer with the TBIs is that the XFire was the only one to use a single plane. While the XFires can be made to run well the mags were so fast to make fun of them, that the dumb being lead by the dumber just repeated that long enough that it become a popular opinion based on ignorance.
TBI suffers from the same advantages and disadvantages as any wet fuel manifold. You just have to make it work for your APPLICATION.
TPI has fewer inherit faults, but executed poorly is no worse or better then anything else.
Bottom line to all this?.
Establish exactly what you want to do, and then optimise for that...
Just for grins, look at this URL.
I want a sedan to *haul* 4 adults, hehehehe
Grumpy
http://www.gnttype.org/carofthemonth...omdetails.html
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2000, 03:18 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
http://tpis.com/faq.html
Q: I currently have a TBI system in a truck. I am in the process of rebuilding the motor, and am going to run more compression (10:1). I want to go with a bigger cam, what do you suggest?
A: If you go with more compression and a bigger cam you will not get it to run right. The TBI computers do not adapt to changes very well. And you can not even program them for the changes, it just does not work. If your really serious about getting more out of your truck you should consider going with a TPI type system. They are much more programmable, and they have a 17 inch intake runner which is excellent for torque, and towing. You could even program for a 420ci motor if you wanted.
Talk about an out and out lie...
The GM TBI truck computer (1227747) is probably the most widely used ECMs for custom tuneable EFI applications.
There is just so much utter nonsense floating around.
Who knows, given time, might even get away from the flathead ford days of 160dF thermostats are a good idea
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2000, 12:27 AM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by simon:
Oh, you can read about that RamJet 350 in this months HOT ROD magazine (Nov00). They show a full layout with the motor installed in a 91 RS. Look for it. It looks very nice.
Trouble with the Ram Jet is that no one has a hac for it and you totally locke to the oem cal.,other then Arid Speed and high price. Rumor was $300 per reflash.
I have a friend running the MEFI, and real frustrated about being able to so anything with it.
The MEFI is a great unit, and has been used for years in the Marine world.
----------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2000, 03:27 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron91RS:
Who here has a aggressive cam. Like 275 duration and .550 lift on a 400 block. Or something a little less on a 350 or 305.
If so does it idle and have enough vacum. Do you run a custom chip? If so did it even start with the stock one?
Used a 270 Comp Cam, with my 355, TBI (cross fire)(1227747), and ran easy 13s
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-08-2000, 11:53 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 91Bird305:
Hmm, now I am starting to think I should swap that 160 out of there now.
160 Thermostats were cutting edge technology when flatheads ruled.
then they were a crutch for poor tuning, and lazy chipsters
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-08-2000, 11:55 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Jason 85 IrocZ:
Hey Guys
What is the best timing advance for TBI?
8 degrees, 10 degrees, or less?
I am running 8 degrees advanced now.
8 degrees is a great stating point if your doing your own chips.
To run anything else, means testing by measuring performance.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-09-2000, 12:00 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ethan71:
Every time i put it in 1st, it synchronizes. Bigger idle, more to do.
GM left the LO3 the way it is, we still mod the engine. Why don't you run GM exhaust, with GM aircleaner, GM headers, GM Stereos.
That has nothing to do with it. I want to raise idle speed, I'll be putting in a new cam anyways. Higher idle won't hurt the engine. My friend's dad suggested it. He built a 10 second Duster, I think he knows what he's talking about. Lower idle= more carbon buildup anyways.
Ethan
[This message has been edited by ethan71 (edited December 05, 2000).]
Just need to learn how to burn your own chips.
1000 rpm idle for a 10 sec Duster is about right.
The carbon build up at idle with a closed loop system is mute, it's 14.7:1 at 600 rpm, or 1600 rpm
---------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 12-08-2000, 11:49 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom 400 CFI:
Does any one have experience with 110 lobe seperation w/TBI (MAP)
Used a Comp Cam 270 for years with a 747 sytem. with 224 @ .050 took some doing but was great was done.
The VE tables look a little weird, but the car was fine to drive
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2000, 10:36 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom 400 CFI:
Thanks alot for the feed back Grumpy. I found a roller cam on Ebay 230/236 @.050 110 LSA. I wondered if I could run it. Thanks.
Only since it's a big cube engine.
that would really be a stretch to do on a 350.
But your outta injectors.
Probably gonna need to find a set of the early BBC ones.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2000, 10:08 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by UnderDogRS:
who makes a good A/F ratio and eletronic fuel pressure guages. im going to install them and would like to know that the set i get is correct.
p.s
any pics of these in a pod setup would be a plus!
tia,
RS
The OEM GM 3rd Gen O2 sensors are a switching type. Meaning the only thing they do accurately is switch form lean to rich at 14.7:1 at about .44v..
They are subject to exhuast back pressure and EGTs to throw off the readings, other then *roughly* the switching point.
NTK, Baily and Motec have nice ones for about a grand.
There is a DIY one at the GMECM site.
People have kinda gotten away with as a rough guage, but others have had it bite them when they tune to a volatge of a specific value, nothing beats reading the plugs.
I've had both mech and elec FP guages fail and with either would run an isolator.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2000, 08:21 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
a grand???????what??????
If you want an actual Air Fuel Ratio Meter, they cost about a grand. Yes.. The oem ones are switching types. They change outputs with EGT, and back pressure changes. If you get ahold of any good data logging with a real wide band vs a gm style you can see the oem swing about .3 (AFR) while the WB is steady. The voltage for a particular AFR can also change from pass to pass. There are a total of 2 redially available WB O2 sensors, and the NTK series as used in the one Honda is $230. Yes that is just for the sensor, You simply can't get a $30 sensor to be a precise devise. Like I mentioned if you read the DIY_EFI archives, you can find out the truth about them. Hell, the CARB, and EPA aren't even sure they are reading O2 content anyway.
If you used the same sensor on the same car as what folks like K+N do (and otheres do), then to some degree, you would have an INDICATION, of the AFR. But that's just about it. Folks are just tooo willing to beleive advertizing.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 12-21-2000, 10:28 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by lpwcruzr:
Can someone give me a basic timeline on the TBI? What year was it introduced on the cars? What about the trucks? Someone just told me that the very first TBI intake manifolds and heads still had the older, "carb" bolt pattern on the center intake bolts. Is that true? There are factory intake manifolds out there that would allow someone to just bolt a TBI setup onto an earlier engine?
If you mean for 3rd gens,
82.
They were used on 82+83 F bods, as the cross fire and then 84 in the vettes.
As far a oure TBI was late 50 for a Bendix system
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-25-2000, 08:54 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by NJ SPEEDER:
in my quest to go faster, while playing with desk top dragstrip, i noticed what a huge difference shift points make in a run. since i cannot afford to go to a dyno anytime soon i was wondering if any of you guys that have been to dyno's could tell me a what your sheets looked like? i figure by seeing what you guys have done to your cars and having a mathematical estimate of my own peak power maybe i can figure out the best shift point to get the car into the 13's.
any 305tbi with a stock cam in it would be helpful, all i really need is an idea of the shape of the graph and i think i can figure it out from there. please include a mod sheet so i can tell if some mods may move the power band around a little.
thanks guys.
thanks
tim
Still from time to time use Drag Strip Plus, was accurate on 3 cars. Demo at DFI_EFI Incoming
-------------------------------
Old 12-21-2000, 10:31 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
What is the highest flowing TB for our systems? Is it the holley or the 454 TB? What are the bore sizes on both (2")? Also I've heard that our injectors off of the 305 can be plenty for a mild 350. You just have to boast the fuel pressure. What I'm really tring to figure out is what the best TB for the 330hp vortec headed 350 crate engine. Turbo city looks good but it just doesn't look big enough. How much does it cost to get the equipment to burn your own chips? About how much does it cost to get a chip burned? Last question, can somebody give me the demensions to the carb to TBI adaptor plate. I'm making one and I don't feel like measuring it all out.
To make 330HP you'll have to use the early BBC injectors, and 2" butterflies will support that.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-25-2000, 09:00 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
Sounds good, thanks guys. Hopefully I can keep this TBI system with the 330hp engine. I'm really more worried about if failing because of knock since it doesn't have EGR.
To get near 330, your going to have to be doing your own chips, and once you get there then you can see what to do with the EGR etc..
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2000, 07:16 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Basett Racing:
This is a TBI spacer/adaptor I made a work 2day. It's made from 1/2" phenolic and is bored 2.04" on the top tapering down to 1.70".I'm going put a 454 truck TB on my L03, so I made this to adapt it to my stock intake. I've read posts saying the 454 TB is a bit much for a pretty much stock 305, so I made this adaptor is only 1/2" thick, in hopes that the rather abrubt angle from the 2.00" bore to the 1 11/16" bore will create turbulence, therefore, maybe restoring some of the bottom end torque you lose with the bigger TB -- just a theory -- I will let you know in early Jan.-- that's when the test and tune seesions at the track open back up, and I'm going to do back to back runs, changing just the TB and adaptor.
I can't make the URL work, Oh well...
Go to http://www.bassettracing.cz28.com/photo6.html and its the 3rd pic down the page
If anyone knows how to post this from site please feel free to do so.
Funny in a way seeing the BRE.
I worked for one in 1970, when it was Brock Racing Enterprises, Pete Brock that designed the Cobra Coupes was the owner, and raced Datsuns for the factory.
For grins, might try an open one.
For the way I like to drive, generally the larger the plenum the better. I generally will trade a little low end for some more on top, just a FWIW.
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-01-2001, 11:03 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by LottaBallsCamaro:
I'm tring to solve the hot run problem 305 TBI's have. Whats the lowest temp thermastat can I run and still be compatible with the computer? Also, how can you convert to a dual fan setup (like the Z28's).
The *cold* thermostats, are from the flat head ford days.
No reason for em today, they are cover ups ffor poor calibrations, and a cheap work around.
210dF is fine.
Read any of Jenkins, and Yunicks stuff.
If you have to run cold.
Look at a Boat supply place some have 140dF.
Just remember that too cold and no C/L, and possibly no TCC. Depends on your calibration.
In back to back testing I found no difference from 160 to 180 to 195 when tuned correctly
Rant off
----------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-01-2001, 11:10 AM #1
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Scanner for 747s, S/C enrichment
Ken Mosher of turbo link fame used to make a scanner for the 747s. Might look him up at the GN Ttype site and see if still available.
Also sells a Boost link for feediing a MAP signal into the IAT/MAT input. Might be handy so some. It's for the Gns, but I sure some clever folks here can figure out what ti do with that info..
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2001, 12:09 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by LSTtype:
First off id like to say thanks for all the great info you guys have provided me. by reading this board, many questions I have about my recent purchase of my camaro have been eliminated. For example, at idle in traffic I noticed my temp guage said 220, but after reading info from this board, i found out that its normal.So thanks everyone! My question is that I found a TPI wiring harness and ecm from a frien and I was wondering what I should offer him for it? He doesnt know what it is worth. Thanks
35-50 for harness
25-50 for ecm
If the harness is exactly what your looking for and the ecm has a close enough memcal, maybe a total of 150. but I'm used to scounging for stuff, and cheap
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Old 01-14-2001, 10:27 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tab92bird:
I'm considering getting a new one, and I've heard different stories about what type is best, i.e. single/dual plane. I've heard that I don't need a dual plane with tbi cause you don't need the extra vacumn, but I don't know how true that is. So, does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Brandon
The best for a mid 13 sec car is actually the cross fire but that takes alot of work.
For a *normal* TBI I like the Weiand 7525. It's a single plane.
With a single plane you have 2 sets of similiar runners. with a dual plane you have 4 pairs, and some run flat or slightly uphill. To get a dual plane to have the lower plane work *right* takes manifold heat. With a single plane no heat is needed.
Make mine a single anyday.
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2001, 09:03 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28Maniac:
I just purchased a '91 Camaro RS last week. I've owned several carbed Camaros and my last one was TPI. I'm not overly impressed by the power of the bone stock LO3. Is it worth my time and money to modify this engine or should I switch to TPI or carb? What is the most I can expect from this engine? I was very impressed by the power I was able to make with simple bolt ons on my '85 LB9.
TPI or TBI, your limited by 2" butterflies. If you need more the 700 CFM then the EFI starts getting $, but so does a good 750 Carb, and the carb will be hard to get as well calibrated as EFI, and you just can't do as much with a none ecm controlled dist.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2001, 08:57 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by dowtyt:
I have an 83 camaro with crossfire injection and I am planning on rebuilding the motor. I know the injection system needs to be rebuilt, but I haven't decided what to do with it. I want to keep the crossfire injection. Has anyone had anything done by Turbo city? I am thinking of having them upgrade the unit to a hi-flow for $229. Is this worth it? Does anyone have any suggestions?
It was my experiences with them that lead to programming 101, and my quest to have folks do their own chips so as not to be ripped off by folks like turbo City.
I paid $300 for a chip, and they had the tranny wrong, the agreement was 2 reburns free, and charged me a free reburn cause of their error.
Was just a case of out and out theift. I've never spent another nickel with them.
All they have is customer misinformation in most matters anyway.
You can buy the 2" butterflies for like $20 and get the TBs machined for like $30-60.
You'll have to hunt some, but for $150 well worth not dealing with them.
-----------------------------------
Old 02-03-2001, 09:32 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
ive done much more measuring. dont go punchin or drillin on that thing. there is almost no way to bore the 1 11/16 tbi to 2" without either adding material. or having VERY thing WALLS somewhere. On exact centers, which is what ive measure from a 2" gasket, you break thru the back. im not about to just throw away 50 + machining to know. im going to test as much as i can before just doing it. i have to think of somethings. how to not have holes or cracks in the tbi after machining, since no matter what the walls are going to be very thin. I also still need to take off the 454 tbi. mon looks like a good day for that. the 2 degree weather isnt helping at all btw.
I put 2"ers in a cross fire and had like .015". Devcon, and even JB Weld can fix minor FUBARs.. Cure i 200dF oven. Use masking tape as a barrier for the epoxy for min trimming afterward. Naaa, never dun this before LOL
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2001, 11:28 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Keith5:
What are the differences between the two systems on a truck 350 TBI and a fbody TBI 305?
I think I've seen that the TB's are the same, but the injectors are different. What about the harness, and computers? Can the computer's be swapped using the existing harness? Can just the proms be changed using the existing computer?
Cars use a IAT sensor trucks don't
Usually a P+P
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2001, 05:51 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Zac's92:
I have one coming my way for $100. I need instructions on how to repin the harness so I can use it. Who will burn a chip for me? Howell? I've heard good things about them, any opinions welcomed.
Zac Spalding
I started running 747s about 6 years ago. There is a hac of it floating around. Learn to do your own chips and be free of clowns stealing from you. For the price of what most chippers want you can be doing your own. Lurk over at the prom board for a while and read the old posts, your answers are probably already there
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2001, 05:47 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Blucamaro:
I was wondering if anyone knew where to get a Ram Air breather with 2 inlets for my camaro,and would it do any good on a Tbi set up?I seen it a few time's but,could never find one.(it's just the air breather,Not a hood or anything)Please help!
Some years ago I invested alot of time in snorkels, used 3-4-5" tubing, when the jetting was fully optimized for each and in back to back tests none improved over a fully optimized Open element filter. Also, on the 305/350 the 2.25 was the fastest. I used a .75 inner ring and then a 3" filter so the unknowing thought I was running that large of filter. The air colum above the TB is kinda critical if your looking for the max. Would have thought the 350 would have liked more, actually a 355 with a Comp 270 cam.
------------------------------
Old 02-07-2001, 06:10 AM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by PullmeoverRed:
there are always bigger dogs around. Remember trash is trash.
Gotta get thick skinned or you will get hurt trying to prove a point.
Want to go fast?. Take it to the track, chances are alot less of killing someone.
BTW, I have lots of stainless steel holding my spine together from just a wet road, might think about things like that before street racing.
Make some mods, and have some fun.
Like racing you need to be around to finish!
---------------------------------
Old 02-03-2001, 08:33 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Duke:
Has anyone ever put a Holley 4bbl TBI unit on using the original computer (PROM change though) and just some custom wiring? If so, how well does it work and how does it do on gas? Just curious, thinking about paring a set up on my 427 so I have a reason to put the bigger cam in.
No gm ecm has the right injector drivers, to run 4 TBI injectors.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2001, 09:26 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Get Blown ?:
It's been done, the 7747 supports 4 injector drivers. This is how DanW has his done, I believe. http://www.fbody.com/members/workman/tech/techindex.htm
When you run the series parallel non sense thing fall apart at 3K rpm, stop by with a few (TBI injectors) and I'll show you on an ecm bench, where your not guessing about what going on.
Like I said no gm ecm has the right drivers for 4 TBI P+Hs
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2001, 11:54 PM #35
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Brentis007:
Ok, so i'm dropping totally rebuild 350 in and i'm guessing its gonna make at least 325 horses. I want to keep in throttle body injected. What I want to know is if the stock tbi will be able to feed it. If not, what are some good aftermarket ones. Also, what kind of difference will I notice with a better flowing tbi? Thanks!
Hada XFire that best I could do with alot of work was low 14s, going to 2" butterflies, got to mid 13s. YMMV
-------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-23-2001, 08:00 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by HOT/A377:
Hi, I'm looking for info and photos of the Cross-Fire Fuel Injection. How was the manifold as far as flow is concerned?
thanks
For 325 HP the runner is fine, and this is from experience, and not just repeating stuff. I ran mid 13s with mine.
You need to bore the TB to 2"s, use appropriate injectors, cut the EGR tunnel out, and make a 1/4" spacer to get enough plenum.
Then plumb the TB in pararrel, get enough pump, and run a 747
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2001, 03:25 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by derrel:
1st Post! Has anybody out there had any experience with the Haltech GM replacement, laptop programable computer? I seems easier than burning a bunch of different chips?
Their tech support in the USA, is rather lacking. No one I was ever able to contact acted like they wanted to help a customer. The software is easy, but not impressive in my book.
For the money you can get alot of other meaningful things.
Burning proms gives you time to write your notes, and organize your work.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2001, 10:48 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Duke:
That's a very good idea really. I think the 7747 ECM could work for 8 injectors, it all depends on how much juice each injector uses. I'll look into it, sounds promising.
Edelbrock has been selling a port conversion for TBI trucks for years using the 747, clue #1 is that you need alot less accleration enrichment with a port system then TBI.
Will take some work to get the right chip
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 06-02-2001, 01:16 PM #21
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Alot or a lot, BFD, I do that to confuse the really slow folks. BTW, just typing is a shore with all these meds., walking in anothers shoes, yada yada.
Remember the difference in injector firing strategies befor getting too hung up on this.
The TBI fires each injector alternately on each ingnition pulse, so you'll have 1/2 the PW at low rpm, and with many of the larger saturated injectors this will be a problem.
So you might have to run peak+hold injectors. Also remember the peak and hold port injectors are 2.4 ohms as compared to the TBI 1.2 ohms.
You can make about 400 real HP, with a well done GM TBI. 500 real takes a well done multiport, to do easily. 500 could be done with TBI but would take alot of clever work, and research.
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2001, 10:29 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TP355Z:
Alright, I'm on the verge of tears here. I work at a machine/engine shop and am building a 355 to dump in my previously 305 equipped IROC. The problem is the restrictive 305 Comp and the TBI unit. There's a 670cfm unit from holley that I'm eyeballing, but besides that, I'm coming up short on decent camshaft numbers and computer-programming possibilities that would allow me a bigger cam. Someone throw me a bone! PLEASE!
Email me at bsrboy@yahoo.com if you want. Thanks in advance.
I used a Comp 270 in my crossfire.
Just get a throttle body off of a BBC Pickup it's got the 2" butterflies in it
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2001, 10:34 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by pwdbychevy:
I'm looking for a set of 350 TBI injectors to install in my 305 TBI. I found out the hard way that not all 350 TBI injectors are the same. Does anyone know what year, make and model truck TBI injectors will work? I had a part number for the correct injectors but lost it. Thanks.
If you junk yarding the orange/black ones are 55, the yellow/ browns are 65.
55s in Pickups
65s in the cop/ taxi/ fleet cars
You'll need the right chip if you switching injectors.
The cars with the 65 have an ecm with a lean cruise mode, pickups us the 747 ecm, it's totally hac'd
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 11:13 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by pwdbychevy:
I'm thinking about relocating my O2 sensor from the collector of the drivers side header to the point where both driver's and passenger side headers meet in the Y-pipe(I have the Edelbrock TES system) for more accurate O2 readings from both sides of the engine which will hopefully give me a better mixture. Has anyone done this before? Is it worth doing?
I relocated mine (87 GN) about 4' further back from where oem was. Was already using a heated one. O2s at lean cruise dropped about 50mv. No enough to worry about.
Worked fine for me.
There is a corection table for how long the ecm expects to see a change when it *tests* the O2, but the numbers seem to be sloppy.
The TBIs are real forgiving in the O2 transistional times.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-18-2001, 02:10 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BbyCbra:
Is there a verdict on using an adapter plate so that one could use a std 4bbl manifold. Do you lose anything by doing this? Any other possible disadvantages?
Mike
I ran a two brl TBI on a cross fire base, and a Wieand 7525 (lopo G Team). Things were nice. The TBI limits you to some degree to about 340, and up till then things are just a matter of getting the right combo. I used a Comp cam 270, early vette AL heads, and it made for a decent street machine. The best times were mid 13s with the cross fire and dual TBs.
You will defintely lose some off idle response, but from 3K up things are alot better.
YMMV
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2001, 10:25 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Z28 Boy:
thats crossfire injection. two smaller throttle bodies compared to the ones we use. the motor only made like 210 horsepower or something like that.
nothing big, but chevy's first step to use "mainstream" fuel injection on cars.
-brian
It uses two 1.8 just like your's
Can be punched out to use 2.0s.
Took a bunch of work but had my crossfire running mid 13s.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 11:09 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by recaro xfire:
grumpy
hey man i got an 83 recaro ta with CFI. how the heck did u get it to run 13's?
what are ur mods and stuff? any info would be apprecaited!
recaro xfire
Was lots of work.
Opened throttle bodies up to 2"
1227747 ecm
1/4" lid spacer
Cut egr tunnel out of intake
Comp 270 cam
early vette AL heads
Edelbrock exhuast
BBC TBI injectors (early)
3.23 gears
Lots of tuning
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2001, 07:23 PM #23
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by snflupigus:
Grumpy has to know this, he knows everything there is to know about gm ecms. I would MORE than bet he knows. so... Hey grumpy. please respond .
The 747 uses 2 injector drivers.
The estra wiring is for redundancy, ther aren't 4 drivers in there, Just like the 165s and 730s the use the extra wiring for lessening the electrical load on the PCB traces etc.
There is no way to fire 4 low impedance P+H injectors with any oem GMECM.
There are 2 types of P+H injectors 1.2 ohm (TBI), and 2.4 ohm TPI. Then all your saturated are 16-18 but can be as little as 12 but those are rare.
The guys that were doing the 4 brl ones finally figured out the just won't work right without an external driver board (using a gm ecm).
The Edelbrock 747 TPI is happy running 8 SATURATED injectors, and they used to just change the AE stuff.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2001, 03:03 PM #32
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
This is the 7747 ecm print out. Notice it doesn't label the injector drivers! Notice that they are wired in parallel maybe because that was how they were designed for all the injectors of low impendance (305, 454, it don't matter).
This is the 8746, notice it labels them 1 and 2. I guess that answers THAT question.
Now for the big yippie, I might have figured out how to drive more than two injectors. I'm still figuring out the circuit but I have a good feeling about it and I'll let everybody know once I have figured it out.
Go ahead do it, I was just trying to min the time you waste. Fire up an 747 ecm on the bench and you can hear things go biserk when you try to fire 4 TBI injectors (at about 3K).
You can also dig out lots of GM training manuals that state that they alternate injector groups of firing on the 165, Again not all that you read is true.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-04-2001, 10:13 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by nesluopetan:
Im popping in my 340hp engine this weekend, and was wondering how much HP this crossfire will actually support.. just curious, I cant wait, my 82Z will be a mean machine, World Product Heads, nice cam, etc.. it will be about 340HP.. DO i need bigger injectors for this crossfire, it came off my 305.. if so, what things do I need to change in order for this to work on my 350? what parts needs to be changed on the crossfire to support the 350 and utilitize it? let me know where to get them and part numbers with prices if you have time. thanks
Nate
I made about 325 HP with mine.
Takes a bunch of work thou.
Early BBC injectors.
2" butterflies.
747 ECM
Redoing the fuel system so the TBs are in pararrel rather then series
Porting base.
Grinding out EGR tunnel
Optimizing the air cleaners
Lots of lil things.
I did run mid 13s when done.
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-04-2001, 10:00 AM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Nate Hanson:
I was wondering if anyone here has a Autometer A/F ratio guage on their cars? Just wonder how well they work, i wanna get one for my truck
nate
The oem O2 sensor is a switching type. Trying to read anything more then richer or leaner then 14.7:1 is basically a joke. They are effected by backpressure, and EGT. If you make a tuning change, you don't know if it was mixture that made the change or the change in EGT.
For the price of that *guage* you could actually do other things to improve the car's performance.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-04-2001, 10:34 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89 4Mula 350 Tbi:
Guys i found a person selling an entire tpi setup for 400 dollars harness comp and intake everything i'm interresded in getting it but how hard is it to run the harness excetera.
It's not that hard, but time consuming.
If it's a 90-92 set up, that is a great price. If it's a 85-89, then your going to fall subject to the MAF stuff.
If your thinking about going quick, the later setup is the way to go.
If you go to the Prom burning section, and look at the *final answer* threads there might be some info., that would help you figure out what exactly is going on.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2001, 07:22 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JimmyS:
So if i increase the pressure, will this solve the problem of the lean condition at interstate speeds? It started when i got my headers, i get the lean condition light when i travel at 70mph.
Probably not.
The ECM is going to try and maintain a 14.7:1 AFR. If it can't do that then it will set a code 44 (if lean).
Knowing what you BL is would be handy.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Old 11-25-2001, 10:24 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BlownBurb:
Does anyone know whether the new GM TBI-Vortec head intake can be bored to handle the Big Block TBI?
As well as the new Votec engines are engineered, I'd be doubtful just doing that would gain you much.
----------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2001, 10:22 AM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Please accept this as a real long story shortened to a practical posting limit.
ALL engines (oem 3rd Gen) have some EGR. Period.
Any time both the intake valve and exhaust valve are open, there is some EGR taking place.
On a high performance engine, when you change cams, you increase this self EGR'ing. So you'll want to disable the add on EGRs so that you don't OVER EGR the engine.
The reason you have to run more timing at idle with a bigger cam, is due to the increased self EG'ing.
Top Fuelers have all the EGR they can stand, just thur the cam profiles they run.
EGR for better mileage is a joke in my book, it's an engineers thing. Just falls apart in the real world.
Exhaust back pressure at WOT can OPEN an EGR valve, so yes they do effect WOT preformance. If in doubt, build a little cats whisker movement detector like I did, and find out for sure.
Removing an EGR valve violates Federal law, so is for off highway use only. Same with some cams, and exhaust system can affect the EGRs operation too.
If you eliminate the EGR, recalibrate the timing and fuel to compensate. There can be little gotchas.
The only way to understand what your engine is doing is to fully comment the code, and burn your own chips. Hacs are good but can be inaccurate.
The self EGR of a motor is what controls the ATOMIZATION of fuel as the intake valve opens. Feel free to contact the engineering department at Ford for further details on that. Just you have to to find your own inside guy, as they don't print their R+D on the Net.
Books by Heywood, and Heyt (?) help explain the above.
Nothing is really as easy as it appears
Not to be done without adult supervision
Refrigerate after opening
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
R Barrera is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2001, 07:16 PM #22
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by R Barrera:
EXACTAMUNDO!! Your EGR might turn off at WOT, but it doesn't miraculously undo all the carbon buildup in your intake and on the back of your intake valves.
While yes, it allows some Carbon particles back into the intake tract, but the carbon build up on the back of the intakes is a more a function of the additive package of the fuel your tunning then anything else. Normally if it's letting larger particles like from deposits breaking lose, it starts to hang the EGR valve open.
Water Injection is the cure for carbon build up.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2001, 10:06 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by deadtrend1:
i was actually told once on the boards that a O2 sensor never really goes bad, just gets really dirty. And you gotta clean it off. Not sure who said that too me but dont quote it.
It really depends on the state of tunne the engine is in. I've had one last almost 150K miles, but I'm a major tune up freak.
One tank of leaded gas, can ruin one.
There are too many variable for specific answers.
For the price, if in doubt replace it and keep the old one for a working spare.
Better yet update to a heated version.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2001, 07:20 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by brodyscamaro:
I just replaced mine today with a Bosch one. It was only like $25 and I was/am getting 11mpg; so I hope this helps. I put it in using a socket made for O2 sensors and it took maybe 5 minutes for the whole swap.
Bosch's have a known problem with the internal ground for the sensor going back.
You can't beat AC quality.
Oh, and I had 2 Boschs back to back fail like that.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2001, 09:10 AM #19
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JPrevost:
I wouldn't think it's any better, maybe more reliable under changing exhaust gas temps. Probably more accurate because it's a stable temp, I don't know, just thinking outloud.
You answered your own statement.
It is more accurate (ie better) since it establichs a known base temperature.
Better if it allows faster closed loop (ie better mileage, not a huge amount but everything adds up).
More positive closed loop after hot restart, yep all in all just better.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
NJ SPEEDER is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-02-2001, 08:12 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ImportsRsloths:
NA..... i havent seen a fast tbi yet... the fastest ive seen is a 383, afr heads, cam, etc and with a TBI setup he ran 13.8s is this the usual
No power braking, muffler on, sway bars on, Cheap old TAs, I was running 13.7s, and had done some updates to that, with my in car timing, I had knocked .2 of off the 600' times, so going by actual slips was a 13.7, but was probably closed to 13.4 when done.
84 Firebird, with a XFire.
700R4, 3,42s, 3" single exhuast, 1227747 ecm, TES, 2" throttle bodes, BBC injectors.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2001, 09:57 AM #40
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Before jumping onto the more is better routine, how about figuring out what EXACTLY you want to do.
Is about the cool look?
If about HP what level do you want to run?.
It's alot easier to define your goals and then look how to acheive them.
You can get to 350 Honest HP, with a Weiand 7525 and a BBC Throttle body. 350 dun right is a fun ride, since with much more then that you over whelm the suspenion anyway, without lots of work. Also, on the street the tracion isn't as great as at the strip, so there is alot about what the chassis will handle Correctly.
You can tear the drivers out of one ecm and add them to another, so long as you have enough heat sink area (BTW, and ecm can get flaky at over 130dF operating temps).
Anything you do to drop an injectors operating voltage, just screws it's operation up. If anything you want to raise it's operating voltage (on my own car, I raise the charging voltage to 14.8 at WOT). It helps both the ignition (alot), the injectors response time, and fuel pump output.
Going with multipul TBs is also going to mean all the Acclerator Enrichment stuff will need work. The idea of two throttle bodies from a pair of 180 HP engines supporting 360 is correct, but remember, the wet flow area is 1/2 of what two 180 HP engines is.
Also, the IAC stuff will be totally wrong. You can run with just one IAC if sharing a plenum for two throttle bodies, but on a dual 4 manifold you'll need to use both. If you look at the IACs from a Xcross you'll see the difference in Pintles.
Can it be done,
Certainly.
The other questions are why?.
and at what lenghts are you willing to go to get it CORRECT.
Can you tune one?. It takes alot of work to understand the IAC strategies, and AE stuff. It's nothing you going go get right on a TBI in just a few attempts.
If your going for HP, and High RPM, then you might as well go with a SD port type of set up. The TBI's basic strategies are for truck applications (yes, they were used in cars, but based on truck stuff).
To get the most out of this also means using a 8746 with the IAT.
The higher the level of tune for the street the more sophistication you need!!. It's not the opposite, unless you like buying lots of gas and tuneup parts.
Cheers
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2001, 06:24 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
A single plane has 2 sets of 4 runners.
A dual plane has 4 sets of 2 runners.
You can't get a dual plane to work completely right at any rpm. To get the mixture about right, means heating the manifold.
Single plane while not perfect is close, and they run well without any heat.
About the only single plane that has 8 equal runners is the cross fire, and that one takes tons of work to get right. When used with a different lid so that it's carbureted.
Low speed drivibility is more about tuning.
Once you get to about 1/2 throttle the Single plane walks the dual. So if you racing at 1/3 throttle the DP will win.
Use a Weiand 7525 and have fun.
Fast whatshisname mentioned the most overlooked part of a converter.
Flash speed, it is what allows the engine to recover and get to speed again after a gear change. You really need a ride in a car that uses a 4K stall (and needs it) to get how important this feature is.
One my well tuned LG4 I ran a weiand 7546 8012, Performer Performer RPM, and several others. Even on a lowly LG4 the 7525 was fastest in the quarter get the best MPG and was the most fun to drive, thou I did optimize each tune. With a poor tune a single plane would be a PITA compared to a well tuned DP (and the reverse).
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-01-2001, 02:32 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
Yeah, those WOT dyno tables posted above are all fake. Lies. Untruths. Maybe the dyno operator above held the throttle at 1/3 for a bit, to say 5000rpm, then went WOT... LOL.. Let's race??? Well, he may have HAD to go 1/3 to 2000rpm because he had a 750cfm DP carb, which is too big for 400hp... Whole nuther conversation...
Ok, Grumpy. You think the SP in the above test beat the DP above 1/3 throttle??? Prove it. ALL WOT DYNO USE.
Noone here uses a 4000rpm converter. Not even a 3000 converter. Not even sure why flash was brought up... RPM is RPM... Torque at an rpm does not care about flash... That's a weak argument, to say the least. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Doesn't matter for any configuration. How would someones 2000-2500rpm converter fair in this argument??? I was being kind above... How about a stock converter? LOL.
I hope I can get to NJ for the 15th... Lessons will be learned. I may just show up in a vehicle that you guys do not suspect as my Wrangler is a MARKED vehicle, from what I hear... Pink slips may be exchanged?
I have to laugh.
[This message has been edited by fast_broker (edited November 30, 2001).]
OK, have it your way when you.
I was just trying to educate a little, but you seem stuck on what you think you know.
BTW, your again wrong, since I am here and I have more the a 3K stall converter.
Laugh all you want, I really couldn't care less.
NJ?
Isn't that where they sentence people to live? (Just meant as to be something that is laughable, ie, a joke).
BTW, you never did mention any real testing that YOU did. I tried a number of manifolds, have YOU?. How much time did you put into optimising them?.
Are you assuming my current ride is a TBI'd or TPI'd car?. Or even naturally aspirated?. Hmm, assuming maybe embarassing.
But, in closing, even my LG4 ran better, in all repects with single plane. Same was true when converted to TBI, and also a 355 with TBI.
BTW, try to get to a PT+E seminar, they had some great info on converters.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 09:53 AM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
If you actually think you will have more average torque with a SP, run one.
Whew, now you just need to convince GM and Ford of that.
Maybe if you looked at it this way. Dual planes use several different lenghts of runners so as to enhance the torque over a wider range. OK, sounds reasonable, and what most authors claim they do.
Then why are the latest engines running equal lenght runners?. Like the LT1s, LS1s, etc..
Look at the fastest, most economical, best BSFC engines, and they all run equal lenght runners.
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2001, 11:13 PM #22
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
same-length runners are always better, but in order to get a carb-type short manifold to work under dual plane conditions with the 18436572 firing order, the only way is with different length runners... ie, it's the the only way to get alternate bank-firing on each "side" of the divided plenum...
Now, if you could change the firing order so that the left and right banks are always firing alternately, you'll be able to properly design a "better" dual-plane manifold, but harmonics don't allow it... Or, just use a Ram-jet, TPI, etc... Me, I'm still waiting for electro-mechanically actuated valves: no more cams, just a computer program and some more wires. but, UNLIMITED control of valve lift and duration at any time... Someday...
Guess you missed where GM has changed the SBC firing order?.
You could very well do a dual plane with *equal lenght* runners (*equal lenght* as well as a single plane has).
Again the characteristic that defines the current dual planes is that they use different lenghts to spread the torque curve out.
The electro valve technology valves are in use.
http://rbowes1.11net.com/dbowes
I guess you'll have to tie a bunch of them together to actually propel your car.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2001, 01:44 PM #26
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
I understand what you are trying to say but you must understand what actually goes on inside the plenum on dual vs single plane intakes. Lots of flows changing, moving and influencing other flow. ie, what happens when cylinders 5 and 7 suck pretty much at the same time from the same area? 5 steals from 7, get it? That has nothing to to with fuel delivery, just air movement and physics... Even pulses across all internal flow areas is what one desires and it cannot be accomplished with DP or SP, really.
You 5-7 scenario is really a problem in higher rpm ranges then we are talking here.
The 5-7 cross firing can be an issue if the wires are routed wrong, but the cylinder filling isn't.
When you have true isolation of runners and pulses, which is dificult/impossible to actually achieve, you have the ideal system, which is still only tuned to a small range of rpm usage...
Sorry but your way off base on that statement. Look at some dyno sheets with IR manifolding (IR Independent runner). Webers or open runner FI, have huge torque bands. You'll never match a Weber setup with EFI for max HP. All things being equal.
I did some SP vs DP dyno work with TBI vs carb as some of you know. Again, it just verified the tried and true SP vs DP low-mid rpm range argument. It all comes down to the desired velocity of charge desired by the intake, heads, combustion chamber and to another extent at high rpms, the exhaust. The combination you run must be matched to the desired usage and rpm range.
And I've never seen a dyno win any races or drivibility contests. What you say about ranges is true, but the drivetrain must also match up to those ranges.
My Jeep is fast as all get out with 4.11's and 4.56's and is only 2wd with all extra weight removed. Heavy duty truck in great shape. I'll probably drive it for the Winter and sell it. Now, that truck will have some low end, surely to get the 3702 194/214 Edelbrock cam that I did TBI dyno work on in the Wrangler. that was a great combo.
Oh, so now we're into specific case stuff. So your saying a jeep that weights over 3,500lbs with a 194/204 duration is fast?. fast in what reguard?.
EDIT: JP If you think that "low-end" torque means more torque below 5000rpm (as the DP vs SP dyno data above clearly shows!) then I guess I want more low-end torque. A mellow cam with a Performer carb and small carb will not have more torque at all over the SP data above. It is TOO mellow... There are 3 levels of performance in this discusion... Street/daily, street/race, race/no-daily, IMO. I am arguing the street/race point, that is all. I removed a 500hp carbed SBC (nice to have ASA friends) from my Wrangler to do this TBI stuff. What manifold do you think I ran on that engine??? SP, of course, but lord sakes, it was not fun in the city.
Was it just the manifold that was the problem?.
Responses clever hidden in quoted text.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2001, 05:45 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
I have never sold anything on Ebay. Is it worth my time for ProJection ssytems, intakes, heads, etc???
Be sure to use the words, collectible, and limited production.
Lots of people just fall for those words.
-------------------------
Old 12-07-2001, 05:39 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Old 12-06-2001, 05:04 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by PimpCamaroRS:
Hey us i have really been strugling with this question. i have don lots of research but no concrete answers yet. I am trying to get 400+ HP with my 91 RS buy dropping in a 350 with AFR heads, a big cam, and like an edelbrock Performer dual intake manifold. nowmy problem is finding a TBI that will support 400 HP. Ppl have told me 454 TBI, Holly 670 tbi,holley pro-jection....any one wanna give me final answer?
I tend to doubt you'll do that (400 real HP)
2 90#/hr injectors will support 360 HP.
You'd have to get your BSFC down to at least .45. Takes a damn sharp tuner to do that and has to have exactly the right combo..
I ran 13.7s with a *670* throttle body and was at like 325 HP. I could see a 13.4 possibly a little faster (350 HP) and maybe a real good 60' 13.2s but that's about it.
It also took about 400 chips to get good manners and 13.7s with TBI
HTH
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2001, 05:57 PM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan W:
Grump, do you beleive those injectors should not be run at higher pressures to support more HP?
Can it be done, yes.
Is it an easy thing for some to master, NO.
You want to get into battery voltage corrections etc, sure. If you know what your doing.
Can you?. Tough call, given time maybe. To start off expecting success with a first attempt at proming and wanting to do all the good stuff the first time out is a short cut to disaster. I've done it, and I've seen others do it (have disasters). I have the attitude, that some motors are just mules to be learned on, and others aren't to be experimented with. I popped the headgaskets in my car, just finding out how much boost I could run on pump gas, but it wasn't a big deal since I was looking for a limit.
My first EFI stuff on my own was a 747, and at 325 HP, I was resonably successful at it, I can't picture a new guy successfully doing much more then that. Of course, now adays there are enough folks for support to make it a lil easier, when I started wasn't anyone around to ask anything of.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2001, 06:01 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by PimpCamaroRS:
Quote "You'd have to get your BSFC down to at least .45. Takes a damn sharp tuner to do that and has to have exactly the right combo.."
Would i have to do that to switch to 454 TBI, and would i need any other stuff or will the 454 tbi go right in the stock TBI place. Also would i need and adapter for it to work on stealth manifold?
I generally whittle an adapter out of 1/8-3/6" AL plate. Hand drill, some bits, hole saw, and gaskets for patterns.
I use counterhead sunk bolts threaded up from the bottom, so if a nut were to fall off it would be less likely to do damage that way. Counter sink things enough to get the head up out of the air stream.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2000, 05:35 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ProblemChild:
Anyone with an adjustable TPS should pay attention. This is something I have learned from the Turbo Buick crowd, and it is important to max power. When setting the TPS, the wot reading is just as important as the idle setting. GM computers require a TPS signal above 4.60 volts to enable wot fuel and spark tables. Following is the steps required.
1. Warm engine to operating temperature.
2. With engine off, and key on ground ALDL connectors A&B.
3. Wait 30 seconds, then disconnect IAC connector (with key still on).
4. Set minimum air rate to spec. (those with modified engines will obviously have to pick a base idle).
5. Adjust the trans TV cable (push the tab in and retract the cable into the sheath, then press the gas pedal to the floor.
6. Extend the TV cable one more notch by hand (to ensure the throttle opens all the way).
7. Loosen the TPS screws and set the base idle reading. (0.54 is spec)
8. Have a friend floor the throttle and watch for the TPS to reach a minimum of 4.60 VDC. If it doesn't, or it goes over 5.0 VDC, (yes i know the signal is only 5.0, you can get better than that though) move the sensor backwards (most likely) or forwards to achieve between 4.80- 4.88 VDC.
9. Be sure whoever is running the pedal isn't pushing it to the absolute firewall. Just the normal amount of pressure you would use to get WFO.
10. Enjoy.
Da Problem Child
Might double check you diagnostics manual for max TPS. If set too high the ecm drops out of PE. Usually doesn't code since there is a min time for it to set a code. If you see 14.7 AFR at WOT a sensor is generally out of range. (see previous post)
-----------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2000, 01:26 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by chris1roc:
how do I advance the timing? Would it help at all if my engine is basicly stock? Does it hurt anything? How much should i advance it?
____________________________________________
88 iroc 305 tpi
flowmaster
K&N
160 thermostat
ram air
More than 8d, can lead to a hot restart problem. Advance just a tad too much and the Knock Senosr will pull the extra timing out PLUS a few degrees.
To change the timing curve takes burning a new chip.
Running a 160 thermostat is well not the best ting to do.
It gives you a little extra fuel and timing, but generally too much for steady cruise (even though the O2 leans things to normal remember the 14.7 is an average, to the rich needs to be compensated with a leaner lean which is not good.
An EFI motor (and most in general) seem faster when too rich, and with too much timing for optimum performance
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2000, 12:45 AM #20
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by dudelovett:
What kinda octane should I be throwing in my car??
The highest octane you can get.
The additive package is different, and amount of ash generated.
You'll always have an engine last longer with the higher octanes, when **Tuned** correctly.
You'll more then break in long term tunning the higher octanes. I just base this on 30 years of working on hot street, and race cars
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2000, 01:20 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by irocnroll89:
has anyone added underdrive pullies, and then install a high output alt. I know/believe the police versions came with a 140 amp alt. If so did the higher ouput eliminate the charging probs at idle??? For those that haven't tried it yet does the theory sound right??? thnx to all
Small pullies, great marketing. BUT.
they slow down the Water pump. Well, the=is lessens the the operating pressure in the block (not to be confused with the system pressure). At high HP you need the high pressure to prevent localized overheating.
Meaning in small areas around the exhuast valve seats and guides the heads can run to hot. then they are more prone to detonation.
Then EFI cars are very voltage sensitive. Also, remember that even a 1v drop at high rpm drops your available firing voltage about 3,000 volts.
Use a small alter pulley with the oem pullies, and if you can a smaller water pump pulley, if your serious about making HP
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Old 11-26-2000, 03:06 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Pro91Z:
i am currently building a 350cid.. and hope to have at least 375hp... and i also intend on sqeezing a 250 shot of laughing gas.. any way.. will 24lb inj suffice.. or am i better off with 30lb <~~ does bosch even make them?
thanks
Pro91Z
24 will take you *just* to the short side of 400HP tuned just right and maxed out. I'd be more inclined to run the 30s.
Lucas, Bosch, Autolite, Rochchester, (use ford or AC as you like), hitachi, Nippondeso, manufacture about 90% of all the injectors, and different vendors repackage them as their own. Or manufactured to look a certain way.
--------------------------------
Old 11-27-2000, 06:38 PM #21
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Fastcamaro87:
ok heres my question: Im trying to do all the free mods i can, is it a good idea to remove the screens from the maf?
I havn't seen anyone bother to optimise the fuel and timing in both conditions and report any real results.
Seat of the pants opinions I tend to ignore.
Opinions are exactly that. Unless acurrate testing is done it's guessing IMO.
For driving with the MAF disconnected your in a Alpha-N EFI strategy. Just depends on how the netres lines up with your combo as to how well it runs.
Your also in a ign. module timing mode. The ecm is not actively controlling the timing.
Easy maf test is if it runs better with it unplugged the maf is junk
Grumpy http://www.gnttype.org/carofthemonth...omdetails.html
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2000, 12:40 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 89Formula350:
I've got 77K on the stock injectors and it's problaby time to clean them out, but I don't feel like taking them out and spending the money to have them pro cleaned and flowed, so what brand cleaner are you all using these days? Thanks
Beleive it or not Slick 50 Fuel System conditioner is the best the average guy can get ahold of. Over the years I've tried them all, several times.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-28-2000, 11:22 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by monte-ss:
sorry guys I forgot to put the signature on here I havent been on here in a while. as far as the guage its from jegs or summit its $35-40, and does use the stock oxygen sensor. its from inteletronix (I think thats right) if you have one of the Jegs or summit catalogs look in their guage section, cant miss it.
3rd Gen O2 sensors are of the switching type. ie .44v is 14.7:1 AFR. less then .44 is leaner then 14.7, and >.44 is richer then that. If you don't beleive it please read the DIY_EFI archives, and reseach the patent office. Some folks insist on tuning to a voltage which is wrong. Once you have your set up tuned, you can use that voltage as a reference.
Nothing tells you as accurately reading the spark plugs for AFR.
BTW, I own and use a true WB O2 as a tuning aid, and have seen how inaccurate a oem one is
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2000, 02:22 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by StreetLethal92Z:
Has anyone used the Ram Jet intake yet? If so what can you tell me about it is it good or bad? I am probably going to get it just wanted some comments about what you have heard or personal experience.
1992 Z28
383ci engine
TH-350 trans
Holley 750cfm carb (for sale)
GM Perf Parts "Fast Burn" Heads
4" Cowl hood
Many other mods
The only way I know of to actually get on right now is off of a boat application.
A friend of mine is running one of those set ups on his Chevelle.
The Problem is the MEFI. No one has a hac of it yet, other then Ar Speed and Expensive.
The chevelle is taking a few mechanical kludges to lean it down for a street. Off idle and low speed cruise are too rich, but at 3/4 throttle it's a bear.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2000, 06:12 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by airdeano:
the throttle bodies of the L31 and LS1 are similar
and will work on the ramjet intake.
differences are coolant lines on the LS1 versions
(most peeps delete this anyway?)
the ramjet throttle bracket bolts behind TB.
so you dont have to 'rig' wild bracketry..
all i lack is the fuel rail system and ill be
on the road..
airdeano
The ones on my friends Ran Jet are like 58s. Much larger then the TPI stuff
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Old 11-23-2000, 01:14 AM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by El_Douche_86:
Which is better TPI or MPFI? From what I've heard, TPI is a burst of fuel into all the cylinders at the same time and MPFI is a more precise shooting method, where less fuel seems to be wasted. Wouldn't MPFI be better since the cylinders do not all fire at the same time? or do they? Someone tell me please.
The wiring is for redundancy.
Use an ohm meter and you'll see all the 165s and 730s have a single injector driver inside. SEFI only matters at idle, Unlike people *think* happens, the fuel is sprayed at the back of a hot valve while it's closed so that the fuel is better vaporized.
You need the SEFI if your running like 50#/hr injectors. Othter then intown mileage when you're idling ALOT there is no difference (other then emissions)
FWIW there are 3 firing strategies, batch, bank to bank, and SEFI
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast_broker:
Guess I'm not making ATCO this time... I'm gonna put back on the 600cfm Edelbrock and play with it for a while until I get a 454 to PROM tune... The 350 unit is too small and the injectors are way too small. Lean at 5000+!
With all the dyno time you talked about, and you don't have a TB for your car?.
Ya, if you running too small of TB, and small of injector, a dual plane might seem like an answer, but those are problems.
Here I was hoping to hear how your TBI dual plane was going to do.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2000, 01:00 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 1989t-topGTA:
I want to put a flat tappet cam in my 89 L98/GTA/auto rather than a roller cam just because of money issues. I want a mild cam just to get this ol' boy running a little quicker. Any ideas? Also, would i have to change pushrods? What are you 85-86 TPI guys running? All ideas welcome
First thing is disconnecting the Knock Sensor, most all mech cams set them off.
Then you'll want to redo the chip with ver conservitive timing, since folks have grown so reliant on them.
Then remember you'll be adjusting them alot more oftem, and R+R the Valve Covers all the time.
----------------------------
Old 12-01-2000, 01:56 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 5.0GTA:
Hey everybody. I sure am glad i discovered Thirdgen.org. I'm in need of some advice. I got my '88 GTA about 3 months ago. Its the LB9 5.0 but it sure can run. I've heard even the GTA 5.0's only had 190hp with the auto/OD trans but the manuals had a 'hotter' cam and got 220 hp. Is that correct? well my GTA has the Auto LB9, 3.27 rear, K&N Air Filter, Hypertech Air Foil, Flowmaster 40 series muffler. I have $1000 in the bank and would like to know what the next step should be. I'm thinkin some World Heads and a Comp Cams roller cam. what do you guys think, am i on the right track?
Good fuel pump, and good ignition system (MSD, CRANE), plug wires.
Then gather the stuff to do chips.
Then you can tune for changes.
First being go to a 89 base calibration, and then once you optimise what you have and a good baseline, you can make some changes and know where you are.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Old 11-27-2000, 12:47 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JRoy91RS:
Ok, so I'm a wuss. I've got a complete TPI and roller engine sitting in my buddy's garage, and am wondering if I wouldn't be better off going carb. The reason why I say this is because I know nothing about computer controlled injection systems, what to adjust, how to adjust, etc., and I'm afraid I'll screw up this brand new engine. My buddy is a mechanic, but this will be his first experience with TPI, too? Since this is my first swap should I go carb? Or is it really not that big of a deal, and will I get more from the TPI? This is the only car that I own, so I can't afford to screw up this swap.
James
Some times the easy route isn't the best.
OK, so you need to get a notebook out and do some studying. Your not going to be driving carbed cars forever. EFI is in it's ways a;ot easier then a dissy and carb. I can do with key strokes what takes a carb guy 5 mins to do and he gets fuel spilt. I can recurve my timing 2d at a time in ways you just can't do with a dissy. Hot cold whatever and there is no gas sloshing around.
Centri force has about 0 effect on EFI. I spent 20+ years making a good living off of carbs, and still like them, just they are not as practical as EFI. IMO
grumpy http://www.gnttype.org/carofthemonth...omdetails.html
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-01-2000, 01:49 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ADMZ24:
I found out today that I have 4 bad injectors, the entire drivers side. I have already replaced two on the passenger side. Instead of buying four to replace I would like to buy a set. I was wondering what kind wil fit my 91 Trans Am 305 TPI. Injectors from what years?? what engines?? and also what is the stock lb/hr rate for injectors?? and how big can I go with a stock computer?? 22 or 24??
Aren't the stock ones 19?.
To change to larger ones properly is going to mean doing a chip.
Some guys have used 19 on a 350 by twisting the FP up. Trying to drop though means less atomization, which isn't a good thing.
6 bad injectors?. I'd sure be looking for a cause. ie bad fuel?. somthing.
Have you tried runing some slick 50 fuel system conditioner?.
After trying all the avialbe off the self ones it was the only one that really worked for me
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2000, 12:38 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH:
The factory sensor is only accurate around the 14.7 fuel ratio (part throttle). The dyno guys use a wide band o2 sensor they are accurate thru out the range.
Go to the prom board ask some questions. The guys on there are really into this stuff.
The oem O2s that gm used in the 3rd gen cars are a switching type. Meaning <,44 leaner the 14.7:1, and >14,7 is richer. Period.
The early cars just use and AVERAGE 14.7 so all they need is a rough idea of where things are and swing rich and lean of that.
I have a WB, and still rely on reading plugs.
The EPA, and CARB after all these years still can't even agree on what an O2 sensor in even reading.
They are also temp., and backpressure sensitive. But, it's like so many ol wifes' tales it's been repeated so many times some how pact doesn't matter any more.
For a fun time get a copy of the archives from GMECM, and DIY_EFI, and read up on the tech end of them.
If you want to build you own WB look at GMECM, under members and projects
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2000, 12:38 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by doc:
For best WOT performance, I tune the AFPR so that I get 850mV to 875mV out of the O2 sensor. I think that this range gives you about 13.2:1 air/fuel ratio, which is optimal for power.
The stock or other one wire O2 sensors are accurate enough for the range that you are interested in.
If you care to read up on the subject, you'd see the errors in what your saying. If you doubt that they are anything better then switches try the DIY_EFI archives, and the Patent office.
Just read thru the GN site and how popular it is to tune to the O2 and read about all the headgasket problems.
I've actually datalogged the two side by side and you can see the oem swing from 11.8 to 11.2 at a constant .78v..
That ain't close enough for me. Over a .5 difference *can* be a serious problem.
Grumpy
http://www.gnttype.org/carofthemonth...omdetails.html
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2000, 06:08 PM #13
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin91Z:
So what are we trying to accomplish here? My PROM is set for 12.3:1 air/fuel, and I get O2 readings in the high 800's. However, I had my car on a dyno with a wideband O2 sensor, and it said I was running very lean, in the high 13's or low 14's. To richen it up do I need to add fuel so I get my O2's in the 900 range?
You have to find out what the engine wants, what the AFR says is meaningless unless you know what it wants. You have to measure it's performance and do back to back testing. Takes numerous runs to dial a car in.
There is no way to avoid reading the plugs, and measuring performance.
A dyno doesn't present the same load as running on a 1/4 mile, ignoring the air resistance is like ignoring tire pressure. Even with all the millions of dollars Winston cup car guys spend in the dyno cells they still leave the final timing and jetting for at the track.
Grumpy http://www.gnttype.org/carofthemonth...omdetails.html
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-01-2000, 02:03 AM #22
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87Z-ya:
Doc, my car is similar to yours. I have a lean problem and I am running 62psi. I havent decided which way I am going to go as far the computer. Either a speedpro setup or the new accel 7.0. You havent mentioned if your running a good fuel pump or not? I found out it makes a big difference at that high of a fuel pressure. My car was running high 13's and would loose fuel pressure. The original in tank pump had the top come apart and the brushes were barely contacting. Now with my holley forced induction pump I can run the high pressure as a bandaid(the injectors dont like it though). The car went a 12.6@116 last friday with a 2.3 60ft.(hard radials). I was happy for a stock chip. Cant wait to get it really tuned.
A fuel pump will just generate so much work, as you crank the pressure up your volume drops. You can go right past the max fuel delivery and not know it, at 62 PSI, you've got a problem, IMO. I run 62 at 20 PSI of boost, but the system is specificially designed to handle that, ie none of it's oem.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-28-2000, 11:25 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by GTARob:
I am swapping out my TPI 305 for a 383. I am using my TPI intake on the engine to start out.( I can't afford the miniram just yet.) Here is the rundown on what I am doing. I am using World Products 64cc heads. I am using an edelbrock 52mm throttle body and I am having the TPI ported and port matched to the heads. I am running the Walbro 255lph pump into the hypertech AFP regulator and 30# injectors. I am running the exhaust through the SLP 1 3\4 inch headers. I was under the impression that the stock computer would work with the new motor. As far as I know all I had to change out was the ESC and the Knock sensor. I am using the Hypertech thermomaster chip and the Accel digital ignition and supercoil. Am I on the right track? Did I leave anything out? If I have just spent 3weeks planning this out for nothing I'm gonna be real pissed!
The only way to get your combo right is tuning, meaning different chips. Might start reading in the Prom area.
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2000, 05:51 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Christos:
Odd! I also own a 1986 IROC TPI 305, and i am having the same problem. my car won't even idle! it backfires when i accelerate, etc.
replaced the MAF with a new borg-warner, but it ran worse. i took it out and put the old MAF back in. still runs poorly, but it runs a bit better.
code 33. arrrgh. after i replaced the MAF, i got a code 44! when i reset the ECU and put back in the old MAF, it hasn't given me a code 33 again.
it did give me a code 42 tho, after i disconnected the ECU (or what i thought was the ecu) to check the timing.
who knows. i have heard there is a ECU replacement for our model/year IROC. im waiting for next paycheck to pick up a new ECU and see if it fixes the problem.
good luck on yours!
It's time consuming and a pain to do, but the best answer is switching over to a 90-92 ECM. The MAP system takes the quess work, and hassle out of the MAF systems. Then if you really want a car that runs right get into doing some of your own prom work.
Grumpy http://www.gnttype.org/carofthemonth...omdetails.html
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2000, 06:01 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BP89IROC:
Are there any drawbacks to relocating the manifold air temperature sensor to a place in the air cleaner assembly? I hear that it gives the computer data that is closer to what it is actually supposed to be getting.
from what I've read in the code the TPI 3rd gens only use the IAT for a perimeter of when to apply the EGR. Mounting it in a cooler place just turns the EGR on less.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2000, 05:34 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 88305tpiT/A:
Does anyone make these for the tpi runners to replace the runner gaskets or would it be impossible with the clearances.
it sure would help with intake temps-- that plenum gets damn hot after only like 5 min of driving.
James
From filter to intake valve at WOT at 5K rpm, is like 5 msec. The back of the intake where the air stackes waiting for the valve to open again is about 600dF. The coolness might help a little at idle and cruise, but wouldn't look for any real big gains, but that ain't to say not worth trying.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2000, 05:41 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Wraith:
I put my supprram on and a 58mm bbk tb and if I push the gas all the way to the floor the thottle blades do not open all the way. Thare is nothing blocking the gas peddle. thanks
Often the sound insolation and stuff are under the pedal and prevent full travel.
Pull the carpetiing down and trim the stuff to that the pedal has only the carpetiing between it and the floorboard.
It that doesn't do it then split a few 10-32 nuts with a hacksaw, and install them between the end of the cable, and the pedal to take the slack out.
----------------------------
Old 12-07-2000, 05:45 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 87uroc:
I need a new MAF sensor. An original BOSCH for my 87 TPI 350, IROC, costs 600.00 canadian. Does anyone know of higher flowing/better MAF sensors that can be purchased in Canada or mail ordered from the States.
Thanks!
How about updating to the 1990 ecm?. yes it's work, but allows updating what you have to MAP, and their are millions of good used MAPs around. The MAF situation will just be getting worse
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------------
Old 11-23-2000, 12:53 AM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
I just picked up a set of vette heads for $385 shipped. How much better do these flow over stock L98 heads? I think i will need new springs too but I am not sure which ones to get. I was thinking of getting the LT4 springs because they are cheap. I also want to use the LT4 hot cam because it is cheap too. With 1.6 rockers and the cam is that going to be too much for otherwise stock corvette heads?
James
I really like the vette heads, a quick pocket port, debur the chamber, and remove the casting *uglies* in the chamber and have fun. You will nedd to have the appropriate calibration thou. They like alot more timing in cruise, and a lot less at WOT.
I've had a couple cars that I tweaked on run best with just 28-32d of total timing. Then small chambers work well
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2000, 02:47 PM #25
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by F22Raptor:
Roy
I admitt that I misunderstood your post. You are right, you never mentioned anything about RPMs, however, the point I made is true and valid. There is nothing more dissapointing than having a car that can melt tires, but takes a nose dive after 4700 RPMs if not before that; TPI cars are like Mack trucks, lots of torque, but no horsepower. I have raced Turbo cars and sometimes I was able to pull 1-2 cars ahead from the hole, but when the turbo started doing it's thing, the other car would gain on me very fast and eventually win the race. All cars need torque to get them moving (especially automatic), but after that it's all about horsepower.
BTW, if you race a Turbo on a roll on, you are giving your opponent a head start. Turbos need to spool up to make power and torque. They are the weakest out of the hole since they have to go from a standing still.
Slight correction, done right lag is a none issue nowadays with a EFI setup (for a street car). Anyway you want to slice it, I can be well into boost at 2500 rpm., weither just flashing the converter from a stand still or downshifting on a roll. As a routine I let folks leave on me, and I leave easy so I don't blow the tires off.
I've got the drivetrain as a 89 TTA and can set one of those up the same way, just to keep this all 3rd gen TPI specific.
Torque or HP takes a whole package to do that.
Splitting the two takes alot of effort and both ends suffer, to some degree.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2000, 05:37 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Viper702:
I have a 1986 IROC-Z28 305 TPI.The prob that i'm having is that when I start it hot or cold the idle go's up relly high and I have to wait 3 to 5 min for it to go down so I can put it in gear.I've done everything that I can think of to fix the prob.The new part's that I put in are: TPS,IAC,CAP,ROTOR,TEMP SENSOR,I checked all my vac line's,and had my fuel injection system checked and it's okay.I don't know what to do now this has been going on for far to long it's been 3 month's that i'v been fighting with it...Please help Thank's Frankie
Have you tried cleaning the IAC passage ways out?. Just a carb cleaner type operation
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2000, 08:00 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fast89:
Is it possible to change my 89 L98 350 to speed Density. if so, can someone explain how it is done? (Teaching point needed.)
You need to plan this out, the more planning the easier it is. Get a pinout of your ecm and a 92 Fbodies ecm.
IF your good at soldering, it ain't no big deal.
You'll need a 1227730 ecm. They were used in lots of FWD cars. Also, grab the connectors and about a foot of wiring off of the ecm.
You'll need the right calibration, which means a buy at a dealer to get one close to what you have.
If you want the perfect car, I'd suggest doing some reading on the Prom Board. Lots of guys startin to hang out there with good info..
The only sensor you need to add is the MAP. You can then be creative, and use the MAF wiring for the MAP.
If you sub to GMECM, I think there is a guy even selling the adapter to do this.
You'll need a memcal with out VATS.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2000, 10:55 PM #15
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by theformula:
I personally have tried 160* and noticed a decrease in performance.
I went back to stock 195* and have been there since. Would it be wise to try 180*? I dont want the computer to stay in the wrong mode while cruising or at WOT.
Engines (as discussed here) make best power at about 200. use a 195dF thermostat and a GN rad fan switch (turns fans on at 210ish).
Running colder just always forces the engine to be closer to a choke mode so it is richer, with more timing.
Rich with excessice timing always feels better.
IF you use the GN fan switch to turn on the fans, then use a 220 ohm resistor to tell the ecm your at 160 when running 190 if you really like that feeling, though depending on your application it might help but generally no.
Pistons are designed for best sealing at a particular operating temp., cooler reduces the head bolt preload, is MUCH slower to percolate moisture out of the oil. But, to name a few items.
vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2000, 08:23 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by theformula:
What exactly does drilling holes do? Do the air pockets that form make the car have cooling problems?
First, it's basically 1/2 of a racing idea.
Second, it does prevent air from being trapped from running in real low temp areas where the thermostat doesn't open much cause the heater is enough to about cool the engine.
If you plug the cooling bypass system then you have to punch a few holes in it. The thermostat is basicly open or closed, the bypass, helps to average the temp from open to closed.
Does make filling the system easier.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2000, 08:29 PM #19
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by theformula:
I personally have tried 160* and noticed a decrease in performance.
I went back to stock 195* and have been there since. Would it be wise to try 180*? I dont want the computer to stay in the wrong mode while cruising or at WOT.
running a 160 thermostat get you about 6% more fuel and a couple degrees more advance.
In back to back testing (changing thermostats at the strip) using optimised tunes, I saw absolutely no difference in ETs or Trap speeds. If you run a cold thermostat and go faster then its cause the higher temp calibration is wrong.
Running cold means the pistons are at the wrong clearances, the head bolts aren't being stressed right, and the oil is slower to percolate moisture out of it. I don't see any advantages there.
The cold thermostat stuff started in Flat Head Ford days. Just been repeated so many times folks think it's fact.
-----------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2000, 01:34 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by super chevy:
Simple Digital Sytems. I just got off their website, and am curious to see if anyone on the board has used their EM3-E system.
Crank-triggered, no laptop required, etc. for a $1000. Here's their website: http://www.sdsefi.com
Any comments? SC
Just my 2 cents,
in general the aftermarket ones are geared to being user friendly, and a few years ago were a grand idea, because there wasn't much info on how to work with a GM ecm. In the last 3 years that has all changed.
To be user friendly, often *they* do away with lots of little tables that just make the car nicer to drive.
If your running 10s, then yes the simpler ones are easy to deal with betwen rounds.
A $100 used laptop, some logging software, and some editing stuff and for alot less then a grand can do the stock one.
Plus when a GM ecm dies you can get a spare in a junkyard for 50 and be on your way. Matter of fact I carry a spare ecm, just because I do so much *long haul* driving.
----------------------------
Old 12-16-2000, 07:46 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by leirch:
Guys,
I have a Superram and a stock T-5, the cruise control looks as if it has been removed. Does anybody have a picture of a Superram setup with a Stick? Mine works but it looks as if a return string has been "rigged" up to pull the throlle closed.
It just looks totally out of place. I've seen some superram/auto pictures and they look different.
Here is a picture of how it looks now.
www.geocities.com/leeson.rm/augeng3.jpg
Any pictures of how a Superram/stick should look would really help!
Thanks,
Brendan
The Throttle return springs are all in the throttle body.
I'd bet there is a cable problem.
Or the IAC needs cleaned and reset.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2000, 07:38 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueIrocZ:
Just as the subject says, I want to know how to get the 1LE A/C delete option on my IROC. Since my A/C full of freeon will leak out in 2 months, I am growing more interested in the delete option. Where do I find one and roughly how much does it cost? Thanks for any info..
On the GN Ttype site there is a parts listing. They have the number for the S-10 AC Delete. Lacking anything else, might try one of those, was like $28 as I recall.
I think the late 80s S10s GNs FBods all used the same compressor.
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2000, 08:09 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by theformula:
This has probably been asked a million times but I cant really find the answer by searching.
So here it goes.
I have a set of SLP headers and I installed a Bosch 02 sensor in the place for the 02 sensor. Does this provide an adequate amount of heat for the 02 sensor to operate properly? It needs to reach 600*s. I don't have a thermometer gun but I plan on getting one.
This is very important since I'll be running a blower soon.
Thanks
When in doubt go heated.
With headers, you **can** get into weird idle situations with the O2 going cold and going open loop, closed loop and just cycling in and out.
Just please don't tune using the O2 as an indicator of richness. The oem gm ones for the FBods are just >14.7 is more then .44 and <14.7 is less then .44...
I you doubt me read the DIY_EFI, and GMECM archives.
I takes a Wide Band O2 to do that. And they are about $1,000 (USD), or building your own.
---------------------------------
Old 12-21-2000, 10:39 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by cobrakiller1989:
could you just cut off the hose that goes from the MAF sensor to the Throttle Body and and connect the MAF sensor directly to the open element. This seems like it would be a good gain becuase you would still be getting the cold air from the outside, but you would also have a supply of air coming through the sides of the open element. Also, The MAF would still be in tact.
I was just thinking about this the other day and wondered if it would work.
thanks
Best thing to do is convert over to the MAP system. The price of one bad MAF pays for it. Granted is work.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-27-2000, 09:35 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kyle F:
I was thinking the other day( Scary isn't it) that if s speed density system reads off the vacume in the intake then how does it funcion with a super charger. It seem like it would never see any vacume because the Supercharger is pressurizing the the intake track. Anyone doing this? DO you have to change the computer or what? Just a thought because I am running MAF so it doesn't really do much for me other than curiosity.
The syclones came with a 2 bar SD ecm, and it is hac'd. There is an aftermarket option for even using a 3 bar MAP Sensor.
There are what are called FMUs (Fuel Management Units) that instead of raising the fuel pressure one PSI per PSI of boost can go 2 to 8 to one. So at 8:1 it raises th rail pressure 8 PSI per pound of boost.
--------------------------
Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-29-2000, 07:02 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by CamaroX84:
What are your guys' reasons why Tuned Port Injection is better than Carburetors? .
That's not universially true.
Also, it ALL Depends on the tuning.
I've been into carbs heavy enough to be making my own parts for Webers for racing applications, and I can get a proper Weber setup to do everything just about as well as any EFI. The slight differences is fuel handling as you get to like 1.2Gs lateral accleration, the WET manifolds using a common plenum suffer slightly. AN IR will match and still exceed any EFI I've seen so far.
As far as a Holley, and a mechanical distributor, all things being equal, EFI would match the HP, but the drivibility goes to EFI.
There are things you can not do with a dist., that you can with EFI.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-27-2000, 09:50 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by bad camaro RS:
i had someone tell me they read you could only get 375 hp with a maf car this is worrying me cause i jus got my new afr 195cc heads and im hoping for more than 375hp please tell me the maf will flow enough to support more power i also heard something the the maf cant read high enough to support more hp any info id GREATLY APPERCATED thanks
You can only got to 375 with proper resolution. The Buick Turbos are limited in the same fashion, and run 600+ with the stock MAF. Just set the fuel for WOT and best MPH, and take you *licks* with some poorer resolution.
MAP, and MAF are 2 very different systems. The down side to the MAFs, is that they are poor in sudden transitions, since there is always some response lag in it reporting new numbers compared to a MAP that is about instantaneous. But, in steady state, they can be slightly better, since less filtering is needed.
The later MAFS can read to 512 grms/sec.
There are 2 different later ones the 3" (LT1) and the 3.5" (LS1). I've also, run the 3" retrofited to where a Bosch was installed oem, and there is no comparision, the newer ones are a whole new animal.
Running with the MAF disconnected puts the system into Alpha-N. Fixed timing, if I'm not mistaken. Some cars seem to run good that way, but I'd never recommend it. The one I put a stop watch on was much slower, then with the MAF connected.
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2000, 07:08 PM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob P:
Trax,
On my ZZ4TPI the EGR does not work (of course) and I have removed the airpump and a.i.r. lines. I still have all the vacuum lines attached to the EGR, including those ones back by the distributor. Is there something I should do to disable the EGR so the computer does not see it? This is a MAP set up by the way. Should I get a block off plate and remove all the vacuum lines? What about my MAT sensor? Leave it in place or can I get rid of it? Seems I may be loosing some timing advance with my EGR not working if I'm reading all this correctly.
Tks
ZZ4TPI (MAP) Edlebrock intake, SLP runners, everything ported, 24# injectors, ADjfpr, SLP dual cold air, MSD6AL.
Physically plug the EGR port, somewhere. Set 02BO to FF to disable the EGR. Course this is for off road use only...
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-31-2000, 08:57 AM #22
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
I should add, that I have found a table in the SD 8d's code that appears to be a multiplier table for a given temperature of the MAT. It is HEAVILY skewed for lower MAT temperatures which would account for the very high over-compensation I am finding with my relocated MAT and the cold weather we have been experiencing where I live.
This table is not accessable with Tuner Cat (the editor I use to modify the PROM tables). But I plan to decrease the "multiplication factors" for the lower temperatures in the table to see if I can decrease the amount the ecm increases the PW to more reasonable (1% change in PW for every 10*F change in MAT temp).
I will keep you posted on what the results are. However, this is all quite time consuming, and I am a fanatic for detail. So I probably won't have any answers in awhile.
By the time you include the Reed Presure Levels and stuff of the fuel, you'll probably be back to square one (oem). There are bigger fish to fry, IMO.
I did fire up the ecm bench but just had a 749 glowing, was about .7msec from 0 to 80dF at 100% TPS (@3K)
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-31-2000, 09:03 AM #23
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA:
I should add, that I have found a table in the SD 8d's code that appears to be a multiplier table for a given temperature of the MAT. It is HEAVILY skewed for lower MAT temperatures which would account for the very high over-compensation I am finding with my relocated MAT and the cold weather we have been experiencing where I live.
PS. don't forget in the Winter Gas brews they change the aromatic *boil off* temps of the fuel.
Fuel temp also plays a role in detonation.
So what you gain lose at one end you'll probably lose gain more at the other.
There are some things just left better alone.
What is needed is a MAT timing correction. On some of the newer cars that table is for like 10d difference in timing.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------
Old 12-31-2000, 09:06 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 88IROCs:
I've played with the idea of replacing the covoluted tube between the MAF and the TB with an appropriatedly sized piece of stainless(necked up from the MAF, and formed to fit over the TB). But I got to wondering if it would make any appreciable difference, as the air at the walls shouldn't be moving very fast to begin with. I have a minimal background with airflow(mostly related to turbine compressors), perhaps someone with meaningfull experience could confirm or correct me.
I tried to follow the links you posted(the IP is valid), but couldn't get a reply.
One thing I find of interest is that, aftermarket high-flow air cleaner lids for the LT1/LS1 assembly really do deliver gains. I have seen three dyno sheets where these lids improved output by 15 - 17 hp(17 hp on an otherwise stock LS1, 15 hp on two LT1's with exhaust upgrades). Makes me wonder if redesigning the L98/LB9 lid could be worthwhile(though it's doubtful if the gains would be nearly the same). But I guess that would take it out of the realm of "free" mods.
Too solid and they then vibrate, and fail from vibration.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-01-2001, 08:23 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by tpic1500:
I have a complete TPI unit, harness, and computer out of a '92 GTA T/A. I am putting it in a 1989 C1500 that currently has a 350 TBI. Can I just modify the TBI harness to work with the TBI computer or do I need to change both out? I want to keep my RWAL(rear wheel antilock) and don't want to use the VATS. I have both books( C1500 and T/A)and the harnesses are identical with the exception of the fuel injection leads and the cooling fan leads. Any info. would be greatly appreciated.
89 truck as I recall is a 747, 92 GTA, should be a 730. 747 uses a 2 connector ecm and the 730 is 3. There is a far bit of rewiring but should be enough wires to handle it. I think you've look up and compared wiring from a 89 TPI to a 87 TBI for them to look very similiar. A 165 to 747 is very close.
The 730 will need to be redone a little to use the 747 Optical speed sensor, but all that is in the DIY_EFI archives. You'll need to double check but if you leave the DRAC stuff intact you should be OK, on the brakes.
Zerox, everything and put it side by side, and then note what EXACTLY need changes, not a huge deal, but good planning pays
HTH
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2001, 12:19 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by tpic1500:
Grumpy,
Can you provide any info. on the 7730 ecm. I understand that I need to use it for my swap but I want to make sure that I wire up only what I need. The 2 harness connectors are the same but I need id for each pin to ensure same functions. Also need to know what I "have to use" on the third plug-in on the 7730 ecm. Any help would be greatly appreciated. P.S. Getting my old man involved in programming chips since he is a electronics tech. retired from Conoco.
Thanks, Nick
If you go over to DIY_EFI Incoming, there are pinouts for both. Then just a matter of comparing them. As far as only what you need, well that really is your call. Personally I run no A/C, and I always run the rad fan thru a Radiator fan switch rather then thru the ecm. CCP, and EGR are legal issues.
HTH
-------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2001, 12:13 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by bad camaro RS:
i thought i had about 9.5to1 with 64cc stock heads but come to find out i had 10.2 i bought a set of afr 195cc milled to 58cc so im stuck with them now but should i be alright with 92 octane gas? thanks
58 is cutting it close. I know of several 54cc chambered head cars running 10.75 without a whimper.
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-29-2000, 07:15 AM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kyle F:
Why is the speed density considered to be faster than the MAF cars. I mean is it because the MAF is a restriction in the intake.
The MAPs system is faster in transistions then the MAFs. The MAFs use a heated wire or foil, and there is certain lagging in how it responds to differences in air flow. The later MAF sensors are a night and day difference from the early ones (I've run both on my GN). The CPU speed is almost mute, they operate so much faster then the engine does. A Senna was alledgedly able to detect some clocking differences in a F1 car some years ago (BTW, a real talented driver)
The weeks to days is nonsense. If you made really serious changes, and need to change the MAF cals, well good luck. The MAP is ALOT MORE intuitive.
I sent the guy who designed the translator a FBod MAF, just there is a list of projects ahead of it. It's not a short list either.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2000, 01:06 AM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by tmoney:
i'm going from a 91tbi to 89tpi and want to know what brands are out there and which ones are the most complete?the most popular is painless wiring but i'm not sure of thier quilty.i thought about a used harness but you never know whats been done to it,and i don't want to go through the hassel.also will i need to use a 89tpi computer?
Use a 90-92 ecm and change it to a MAP system, instead of the MAF
Do you own harness, you can use most all of you old harness and just swith things around at the connectors. If you wan to not chop the harness then use a used one. I've some the original wire harness to different sytem several times now, the first was a PITA just cause it took so long. GM makes the best harnesses, period, I've know of 4 or so guys that spent 5-600 for the perfect harness and spent more time getting that right then redoing then oem one.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Old 02-04-2001, 11:31 PM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 85F-body:
i have'nt bought the air foil yet.
also will it make a significant difference
I have yet to see anyone make any HP with one. When accuratedly tested, they show the same. Not all eye candy makes an engine faster
YMMV
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Old 02-04-2001, 11:57 PM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by MatthewH:
Hello,
I am swapping a 305 into a Volvo 740 sedan and I've decided to go with TPI. I also would like to use aluminum L98 heads not only for power, but because they put less weight over the front end. But will the EGR systems match up? I know that the Corvette heads have no exhaust gas crossover because the exhaust manifolds have tubes to carry the gases to a port on the manifold. Do the F-body systems have this provision, or will I have to find a Corvette manifold to mate to the plenum? I am considering buying a TPI system from an '85 Z28-whether or not I can adapt it to L98 heads will be the deciding factor. Also, do the L98's come in the pre '86 bolt pattern?
Thanks,
Matthew C. Hall
The L98s have no exhuast cross overs in the head. Youd have to use the vette external EGR stuff to have EGR. Yes old pattern are available.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2001, 12:02 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Crushin91:
That confuses me even more....I thought the L98s' had 3-bar MAPs????
Only gm application that uses the 3 bar is the Turbo Trans Am and that is for the dash boost indicator.
The syclones thyfoons, and turbo sunbirds use the 2 bar.
Everything else is 1 bar or Baro
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2001, 11:38 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve R:
Since my car is somewhat apart now while i replace the radiator, i'm thinking about removing the screens from the MAF sensor. I'm also thinking about removing parts of that housing just below the K+N air filters. Does this in any way hurt the MAF sensor or take away from its lifespan?
The whole idea with EFI is accuracy. Turbulence in the intake tract effects the MAF readings. Removing the screens makes that worse. If yo u go faster without them, then there is another problem.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------------
Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2001, 11:52 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TPIi:
I am considering purchasing a set of these heads for a very good price, but am a little wary of the high compression that will be produced. Any experience with such. Maybe increase the chamber volume 6cc to 64 cc to lower the compression?
Been running them for years, great head, IMO. As of right now, polishing the chambers on them. They are a low timing head, and with the polishing might even get em better. ie they like 28-32 total advance which is a good thing. I'm at 9.7 and wish it was more.
------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2001, 11:42 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Stormshadow GTA:
I plan on modifying my aircleaner box in my 87 gta 305 5spd .Is there such thing as giving your car to much air ,i plan on freeing a whole ****load of air so im wondering if i will encounter any problems..Thanx
There is some HP to be found, in playing with MAF locations and ducting, but you have to test each one. There aren't any universal perfect Intake tracts. I've been doing some stuff on one car and folks are all saying it don't work, Hahahahaha. Note: reversion can be a problem if you get too out of hand is the why for testing. Tis less of a problem for me since the turbo acts as a sort of check valve on the reversion issue
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2001, 06:18 AM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by robert1:
Is there an easy way to adjust pressure for WOT? I went with the 305 injectors for a 355. Do you just do drag strip runs wihile adjusting?
Any accurate timer will work. Vericom, G-Teck, some scanners. You need to actually measure things to see what works, and seat of the pants isn't accurate enough. Drag strip is safest and most accurate. Also, need to do plug cuts. A WB is neat (I use one) sometimes. But, a good pass, and plug reading will tell as much. A scanner with datalogging can be excellent for finding out when a K/S is being triggered.
Most of all keep notes.
Do what the engine tells you it wants, not what you think it needs.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2001, 06:22 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by RMK:
I'm just wondering how much of a power increase you get from having RAM AIR. I'm doing it to my IROC and was wondering what sort of increase I'll get. Also, how much does it affect torque?
Thanks
Rob
Fully optimized, I never found any HP in Ram Air. If too rich, then yes, it would help.
I'd be more inclined to go with a cowl induction set up.
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2001, 06:48 AM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by 442guy:
hey guys i was wondering what you think of swapping an edelbrock 600 cfm and airgap intake on my lb9 305 instead of the tpi.
the entire engine combo is retrofitted into an 86 442 with a 200 4r and 3.73 rear, using all parts from a z28, accept the wiring, and fuel pump(used an inline from nos) it has an adjustable reg, and a thermomaster chip. the engine idles at 900rpm, and doesnt get the kind of mileage i thought the injection would get(only about 20mpg) other wise it runs good,no troublecodes, and passed emissions with flying colors.
my friends car runs a edelbrock 600 and it runs smooth and clean and kicks my cars butt in mileage with the same displacement, but bigger cam,because i dont like the inline pump, and dont feel like paying 300 dollars for a intank, im thinking of doing this,
do you think i will pass emissions with no egr, computer, a 600cfm, and a vacuum advance? i doubt it. what are the pros and cons? i guess this goes along with the great debate, carb vs efi
What doo I think?.
Why take such a bold step back to 1930s technology?. Valley Stream NY, out on the Island?. Surprised no emissions testing there yet. The feds won't be happy till everyone in a metro area is forced to test. 86 442 was that not a CCC, if so the feds will generally allow updates to emissions So if you claim the PTI is an 89 noone is the wiser, unless they look real close.
If you get less then 25 MPG, you need to refine your tuning. My problem with MPG, is staying off the gas, but in kinda a highway mode I got 25.6 A 14.7, and been leaning down to 17.2 at cruise now, so should be right at 30, with a 3500 GBod (GN).
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2001, 06:37 AM #32
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by The ODB:
Absolutely.
you can use a 0-10,000 ohm potenciometer (from radio shack) wired inline with your coolant temp sensor on the front of your intake (assuming you have TPI).
I suggest running two 5-prong relays in line with the two wires going to the coolant sensor... and a toggle switch to allow you to switch between stock ECM control, and the potenciometer control.
Turning the potenciometer will add resistance to the resistance of your coolant temp sensor. A higher resistance indicates a cooler temperature and causes the ECM to add more fuel based on coolant-temp enrichment (this can be as much as 20%+ extra fuel over the base fuel map).
Adding fuel is easy by doing this, however leaning the fuel will require you to wire the relays a little bit differently. I got my best power results by leaning the fuel down several percent.
If you're interested in this method and have any questions just let me know.
good luck
Yep, 6 years ago that's how I did it. but times have changed a little since then. Used to beat the dome in on EGR valves to disable them too, years ago. Heck even 160dF thermostats are used by some folks, even to this day. But, why?. The tools are here for doing things right, and rather cheaply. Dial the CTS down and your also changing timing. So which helped the timing or the fuel?. Or would just changing the timing be enough or would more less fuel with more timing?. Far easier to do it right.
---------------------------------
Old 01-03-2001, 05:38 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Pino91Formula:
Would a bad O2 sensor cuase the EGR system to malfunction, or cause a code 32 , Just wondering , my car is back at the shop after code 32 reappeared. Im just trying to figure what the heck it's doing
Some ecm calibrations look for a O2 change when the EGR applies. Rare not to set a 13/44/45 more often thou
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Old 03-31-2001, 09:55 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by EPSracing:
I have an 87 TPI setup complete the only problem is its a MAF setup can i convert this to run speeddensity without having to buy a new computer? maybe just changing the chip and some other things?
You can use the australian 808 code in your existing ecm, but it's not that great od system, going to the 730 is the best answer. Pep boys will have some extra terminals for adding a few wires. No big deal just takes some time. Get some wiring diagrams, from the DIY_EFI.ORG incoming area and you'll see how easy it is. Might even just do some reading at the Prom burning area and see how others have already done it
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2001, 09:58 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Dyno Don:
There is no way a harness from one of those cars will work. Everything would be in the wrong position, and would not bolt into the car.
that's why they invented soldering irons and heat shrink tubing.
Couple guys have made adapters so most of it at the ecm end is just a PnP for the ecm.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2001, 09:46 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by KW87GTA:
I am just curious what anyone knows on what will happen if the fuel pressure is set too high. I had mine set at 65psi for quite a while due to not measuring it with the vacuum off, stupid me, how was I to know the damn install directions didn't mention anything. Could this harm anything? And how would this effect performance? Thanks.
A fuel pump will generate just so much work, as you crank up the pressure, the volume it can deliver drops. Reset it and clear the computer and see how you do.
The ecm will try to maintain a 14.7 if it can't then you get a SES light.
Sounds like you had it soo high that instead of rich you were about the same as far as what the ecm was seeing or you'd set a code 44 or 45
---------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 04-25-2001, 08:10 PM #25
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by ploegi:
Ok, everyone says that the maf tops out at 255 grams per second. Very nice, but, vaguely meaningless. What does that translate to in CFM????? (at standard temp, and pressure.....) THAT would be a little more usefull. (no, I don't want to do the math to figger it out.......)
That is only part of the problem.
On the MAFs there will always be the problem of the mass of the sensoring element. It will always lag behind the actual airflow in any thing other then steady state conditions. ALWAYS.
There is one lil table that you'll never have, accleration enrichment vs MAP. The MAP sensor is a bunch faster in rssponse then a MAF.
I have worked on numerous MAF and MAP systems, and currently have MAF in my current toy, and you just can't set an ecm up to overcome the lag of a MAF system. My current system is a turbo, and I can get good response since there is always a .00001 sec lag while the turbo spools up anyway.
YMMV
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2001, 11:00 PM #11
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by DANIELEK:
Does anybody know how?
Please let me know.
Thanks
In the chip you have to reset a flag.
Parameters for setting the error code vary some calibration to calibration. There is always a min coolant temp setting.
Some programs run a K/S test when you first turn the key on, and then again at over 3/4 throttle.
Some codes, won't allow Power enrichment if the system fails the K/S test.
If you want to disable it correctly, you need to read up on chip burning.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 07-11-2001, 11:08 PM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by TransamGTA350:
I was looking through an old Corvette magazine in my basement and I came across a TPI buildup. They used a 4" Bosch MAF from a Porsche. Has anyone every heard of this? I don't know whether they used an aftermarket computer or not, but that would be very cool if it would work.
The down side is it's price.
There were wpme guys trying to get one to disect. But, at as I recall well over $400 a pop, they are expensive. Then you have to start from square one on the scalers, and tables, which is nothing to be taken lightly.
The application again as I recall was a early Porsche 928
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 04:23 PM #5
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by fly89gta:
Any place online that has them cheap? anyone have one they want to get rid of?
Just curious cause i couldn't find them anywhere for my car 89 GTA L98
Thanks!
Boschs are prone to go open on the ground side of the sensor. They also tend to read low at WOT. I had 2 in a row that dropped to less then 100 mv at WOT.
Do it right once and use a AC or GM. I've had them last for over 150K miles.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 10:21 PM #6
Vader
Moderator
Vader's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 17,133
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Raymond 5.7 89 Formula:
I bought mine at Pep Boys for around $65.00
The AC/Delco 1993 LT1-design three-wire HO2S are $52.81 each, list. Sometimes the best prices AREN'T in the aftermarket.
------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"Get UP - Drop the bombshell!"
Adobe Acrobat Reader
Vader is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 10:22 PM #7
Vader
Moderator
Vader's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 17,133
iTrader: (0)
BTW - That's P/N 25162693...
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 10:21 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Reno:
I got my hands on a V6 MAF today, which have the film inside, much sturdier then the V8 hotwire (from what I hear), and the harness looks the same, and if I'm not mistaken, they work on the same theory, right? So are they swappable?
Thanks ahead.
-Reno
89 Formula
The hot wire type are what they are using on the LT1 + LS1s. With the performance of the Z06s I'd say they work well.
Even if they look the same, and have about the same output, how that lines up with the IAT is a whole nother matter. You can trace detonate an engine to destruction in using the wrong part long term.
YMMV
------------------------------
Old 08-31-2001, 10:47 AM #24
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
I just now saw this post again.
Yes I DO have a response. However because Mr. Popapork decided to trash my name in public without even TRYING to email me or talk to me on AIM about it, I'm not even going to think about sending him another chip. For what it's worth, I'm STILL waiting for the chips from JDR microdevices. Everytime I call them they tell me they're on backorder. For what it's worth I wasnt trying to make money off of writing a chip for Popapork. TunerCat costs money, the TDF I have to buy to make chips for RSs (I have a SD TPI) and the chips themselves add up.
Because this happened, I agree with what most people say that when you decide to help out and burn chips for other people... well it's not worth it. I remember PopaPork proudly telling me how he was able to beat his friend in another car which used to beat him, after putting my chip in. Now he has to say all this BS. Oh well!
The only reason this all started was your trying to burn him a chip.
The reason for the chip being lost was your fault. If you'd gotten it right, the chip wouldn't have had to go back to you.
So now you openly addmitting to stealing his money, since you didn't get his chip right.
Your a great person.
The reason folks don't do chips, via mail/email/phone is because you can't do it that way. There are so many issues, that it takes numerous attempts to get it right. Once someone learns the basics then they can tunr there own, and really appreciate what the perfect bin is, and not settle for what a ******tuner******* just throws at them.
Old 08-31-2001, 10:51 AM #25
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin91Z:
http://www.fastchip.com/
And for a little more then what he charges you could be doing them yourself.
Since you mention him, that is a form of endoresement, stating that in fact that the chip fastchips does will be correct?. Not just acceptible, but actually correct?.
The reason the chip supposedly went back to me (or so he says) was because there was audible pinging.
I offered to burn him another chip as soon as a new chip from JDR came in the mail. It's NOT my fault they're on backorder.
Synergy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 08-31-2001, 02:22 PM #27
89REDGTA
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hamburg, NJ
Posts: 85
iTrader: (0)
If burning chips for people is not worth it, then why did you again offer your services to someone else?
89REDGTA is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 08-31-2001, 04:20 PM #28
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
Opening admitting to stealing money huh... wow you'r really bright! Maybe you should read the post again!
The reason the chip supposedly went back to me (or so he says) was because there was audible pinging.
I offered to burn him another chip as soon as a new chip from JDR came in the mail. It's NOT my fault they're on backorder.
I read the post several times, and the reason it went back was your calibration was so far off that it exceeded the limits of the parameters of the Knock Sensor. In other words the calibration was junk, by any ones standards. It was so bad that he could hear the problem. There is no logic in him sending back a good chip. But, for you to deny it makes all kinds of sense.
If your doing chips for profit and don't have any inventory that just further shows your out for a quick buck. There are numerous suppliers, to say one firm was out of stock is just being lazy.
If anyone sells a product and doesn't back it up, in a REASONABLE manner then they are a thief. I don't see what is so hard about understanding taking some one money and then not delivering. Reread your post, or think before hitting reply.
No that he's made it clear how you do business, are you going to make good on it?, and when?.
For $47 and $2 shipping, I'll get you any chip he needs for his oem ecm.
Memcals available at a slightly higher price.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 08-31-2001, 04:32 PM #29
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
However because Mr. Popapork decided to trash my name in public without even TRYING to email me or talk to me on AIM about it, I'm not even going to think about sending him another chip.
Sure sounds like having received funds for a product, and now refusing to deliver. Weither he complains in public or private doesn't matter. You have his money and now refuse to honor the agreement you entered into.
One side of a *contract* can't just deside to ignore it.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 08-31-2001, 04:35 PM #30
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
Ill third burning your own, its not that hard. Equipment cost aside from a scanner is fairly minimal, and you will probably get better results doing it yourself once you get the hang of what stuff to change.
This from personal experience or just quoting what you've heard?.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 08-31-2001, 08:17 PM #31
Jim 86 Bird
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 616
Car: '89 TA
Engine: LB9
Transmission: M5
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Jim 86 Bird
I know I'm his (popapork's) bud, and because of that I'm biased, but I gotta back him up on one point here:
Even when he was a little confused about the chip's bad performance and still was gonna give you another shot Synergy, he DID send the chip back to you upon YOUR request.
Like I said, I'm very biased, but there was practically no reason for that extra 20 bucks charge. Since you didn't see his car, all you did was opena file in your prom-burner, burn the chip, and send it on it's way for under $5. I know you gotta charge more for the time spent on startup and equipment, but if the guy's having some serious problems with his chip, it would've been good business to dig a little into that 45 you just made and make the customer happy
(edited for spelling)
[This message has been edited by Jim 86 Bird (edited August 31, 2001).]
Jim 86 Bird is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 08-31-2001, 11:16 PM #32
Synergy
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 203
iTrader: (0)
Back then, JDR charged me about 20 dollars total to order ONE chip ( a 2732A I believe) which is rare and expensive. The shipping for it was quite expensive, in the 10 dollars + range because they ship it UPS. Add that to the 20 dollar charge, TunerCat charges for a TDF file, plus shipping fees for me to send him the chip and you'll be VERY close to 50 dollars for me to burn him a chip. What did I make off of this ? A measly couple of dollars for my time spent to improve on the mediocre GM stock programming. Yes I did ask for extra money for me to order another chip (since he still had the old one) and send him another one again. However JDR gave me the runaround for weeks and I DID keep him updated about it. As far as I know JDR is the only company that carries these chips and is willing to sell in in small quantities. Eventually I was going to get the chip and send it to him. I have no use for it, I have a TPI car. But NOW that he's doing this to me, I have no intention of burning him another chip. He can keep the one he has which he was very happy about initially. All of the sudden it started pinging, probably because he was messing with the base distributor timing.
Synergy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 09-01-2001, 01:25 AM #33
Brent
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: PA
Posts: 921
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
As far as I know JDR is the only company that carries these chips and is willing to sell in in small quantities.
You didn't look very hard then.
Astro Marketing carries 2732A's for $2 each plus $3 shipping for 10 of em.
The local electronics store can get them for $6 each.
Brent is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 09-01-2001, 01:56 AM #34
PopaPork
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Trenton NJ,Rochester Ny
Posts: 717
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to PopaPork
HAHAHA. That is good. You know I sent the chip to you, you can deny it all you like, but the chip was sent back to you, and for the reason of the ping. I would have never sent the chip back to you if A) It was good and B) if you didnt tell me to send it back and you would adjust the timing on it. If you are talking about the second chip that you said you sent, but never got here...no I dont have that chip either. That was why I offered to give you and extra 20 bucks so you buy a new chip and so you can send the chip UPS, cuz that way I would have to sign for it and there would be a tracking number, in case this, "mix up, lost chip" happened again. When I offered the 20 bucks and the reason for sending it UPS you had no problem with it. And you must not have had any problems cuz that day the 20 bucks was gone from my Pay pall Account. Yes the first chip did help me beat my friend in his Bird, but the ping was horrible. I adjusted the timing cuz you told me too, to try to get rid of the ping and when it did nothing for me, I put it back like you told me. And for the record, you never kept in touch with me, I would try to ask you questions and I would either get ignored, or you would sign off and and few times you would warn me. Care to explain that? Also care to answer why you told me you had the chips, that they just came in from JDR, and you would send them out that day?(which was a monday to be exact) And if you think JDR is the only company that sells these chips you are lazy as some one else stated. Becuase of this expierance I went online and found at least ONE company that sells chips for MY car. So that excuse doesnt work. Your stories dont mix to well. If you never had the chips why say that? So please do not flatter your self in thinking I want your greatness to burn me another chip. Cuase that is the least thing from my mind. But whatever.....
Update*** Just checked my Pay Pal account. The 20 bucks was actually 16 so i am sorry for the 4 dollar screw up. BUUUUT. The money was takin out the 24th of April the say day I put the money in the account, by the one and only you. The orginal chip was purchased on dec 19 and the money was taken out of the account the same day again, and taken out by WOW, you. Funny huh. That equals 66 dollar.....and no chip. Hmmm..............
------------------
89 RS Camaro
Hedman Headers, Highflow Cat, Flowmaster 80 Series
180 Degree Thermo
Open Air Element with K&N Air Filter
Custum Burned Chip
So Many Mods......so little time
www.rit.edu/~cjp8408
AIM: PopaPork
[This message has been edited by PopaPork (edited September 01, 2001).]
PopaPork is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 09-01-2001, 02:17 AM #35
Jim 86 Bird
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 616
Car: '89 TA
Engine: LB9
Transmission: M5
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Jim 86 Bird
it cost you 20 dollars to buy one eprom from a company???? man, Pork's not the only one who got burned, hahahaha
At least YOU got some grief outta this by paying 20 bucks a chip Synergy.
Jim 86 Bird is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 09-01-2001, 10:02 AM #36
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Synergy:
Back then, JDR charged me about 20 dollars total to order ONE chip ( a 2732A I believe) which is rare and expensive. The shipping for it was quite expensive, in the 10 dollars + range because they ship it UPS. Add that to the 20 dollar charge, TunerCat charges for a TDF file, plus shipping fees for me to send him the chip and you'll be VERY close to 50 dollars for me to burn him a chip. What did I make off of this ? A measly couple of dollars for my time spent to improve on the mediocre GM stock programming. Yes I did ask for extra money for me to order another chip (since he still had the old one) and send him another one again. However JDR gave me the runaround for weeks and I DID keep him updated about it. As far as I know JDR is the only company that carries these chips and is willing to sell in in small quantities. Eventually I was going to get the chip and send it to him. I have no use for it, I have a TPI car. But NOW that he's doing this to me, I have no intention of burning him another chip. He can keep the one he has which he was very happy about initially. All of the sudden it started pinging, probably because he was messing with the base distributor timing.
Are your eyes Brown?.
This is the funniest line of nonsense I think I've ever heard.
If you only get one prom from each TDF file, you really should stick to carbs.
The more you reply the sillier it gets. Oh, ignore that last comment, I enjoy the humor.
I'll make ya a deal, 2732s $10 a piece (limit of 30), and I'll pay the shipping. Just think of the savings, you could really afford to sell chips then.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post
Old 09-01-2001, 10:25 AM
----------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 10:29 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by VaneGTA:
Here is a list of Mods i've gotten done so far. MSD 6AL, Accell 8.8 wires, Bosch Platinum 4's, Aftermarket Chip that was in car when i got it no clue what kind just says "Powerchip" on it, 160 thermo, Higher flow MAF after gutted MAF died,
You'll have better luck with a *normal* plug, is ACs or Autolite.
What is this High Flow MAF?.
The chip has limits to what it understands, so if this is any higher flowing MAF then it will skew the reported airflow. If the prom doesn't know about the differences, the it can't make the right decisions.
2,400-3,200 are where SBC are most prone to detonaton. For you to hear the detonation, means the calibration is probably more then 6d overly advanced.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-02-2001, 04:09 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by GofasterFirebird:
A few years ago I converted my 305 TBI to a 350 TPI from a 1990 Iroc. Since my car is a manual and the iroc was an auto, the VSS connections didn't hook up properly. So, basically I became impatient and the car ran well so I didn't worry about it. Am I leaving power on the table with no VSS? I know some things that the VSS controls but can anyone tell me more completly?
At WOT?, no.
Thou, you might get better drivibility with it hooked up.
FWIW,
If you ever get into chip burning, if you edit the .bin file, change 0018 from D8 to 18 and then use C-6 as the speedo input for your VSS (this would be for mask 8D).
Probably could run a lean cruise mode.
There are a bunch of minor differences from a manual to auto trans memcal.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Reply
--------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-01-2001, 07:29 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by v8power:
I am changing the carb system on my 86 IROC 350 to a stock 88 TPI system
the distributer on it now is a HEI with the vaccum pot the new dist has the external coil (which I dont want)
is there a kit to convert the old dist to the computer controlled advance and what ever else needs to be changed?
Easiest long term plan is getting a distributor out of a 87-92 ish 350 Pick up. Uses a small cap, so getting a good external coil is an easy thing to do.
Different connector for harness, but overall easier to work on.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-01-2001, 08:54 PM
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-01-2001, 07:32 PM #2
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by JETHROIROC:
Is there any advantage to switching to the newest GM PROM for a 1990 IROC (has original stock PROM). What changes is the new one likely to make in the way the car runs? Thanks guys.
Using the most current update is the best option. As the calibraions get time on them, if there is a problem GM revises the code, does the EPA song and sance and then releases the update. No you won't find a .1 sec in it, but drivibility might be better.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-01-2001, 09:28 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
Adapting the MAF itself wont help, its the program in the ECM that is the problem.
Gads, wrong again.
In oem form the ecm is looking for a frequency range of 30-130 Hz. that can mean 0-255 gm/sec, or 0-1,000 gm/sec..
You can use what ever input you want, and as long as you convert it to that frequency range the ecm will be just fine. The tough part is that the flow isn't linear, that would take tuning of the MAF related items, in the prom to correct.
The easy answer is just using the 808 calibration, and running MAP or going to a 730 ecm (MAP).
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-02-2001, 12:30 AM #10
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
Interesting.. and if true so far in the past day you are 1-3.
Actually from the above post, looks like you are 0-3. I have lots of posts here, 4400ish... Im sure you can find some others if you keep looking, do a search with my username since its interesting you so much. Funny, I thought you were ignoring me LOL!
[This message has been edited by madmax (edited September 01, 2001).]
So when you have no clues about what is actually going on, you brag about how many posts you've made.
Heck, you've now shown you can't even follow a thread.
Wonderful job your doing.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 09-02-2001, 03:49 PM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Iroc n roll:
Back to the topic, in TPI cars the 255g/s limit is not in the MAF but in the 8-bit ECM. And as Vader said the easiest way around it is just going Speed Density. I personally haven't heard of anyone running a "tricked out" ECM to enable it read a MAF flowing big time numbers.
Bailey Engineering makes what's called a Translator, it allows using a late model MAF on a GN.
The GNs had the same limit set for them as the 3rd Gen FBods, but with a translator the GNs can read over 500 grams/sec..
Like I said in an earlier post the problem is that their output to what the ecm expects for a given Airflow. So you can't take a Translator (with a LM MAF) and use it with a 3rd Gen unless you go thru all the MAF related stuff.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
--------------------------
Old 08-31-2001, 10:35 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by super83Z:
the more and more I have been reading from people the worse it sounds. is it true I have to replace the wiring that goes behind my dash over to the instrumentation? Also does it NEED the charcoal canister? Iw ould like to do without it just for the fact that my engine bay us very clean and I want to keep it that way.
Just use a gm harness.
You don't have to run a Cc Canister just because you have TPI.
You might research the varioust years and ecms they used for making an informed decision about what to run ecm wise
-----------------------------------
Old 08-31-2001, 05:14 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by IROC Z Z28:
i know there are screens on the maf's on the lt1 and ls1 engines that you can remove and get free power and i would like to know how similar the maf sensors on our cars are and if i can take these screens off of our sensors. thanks
Removing the screens in my car (87GN with LS1 MAF). Actually slowed the car down.
Removing the foil inside was an aid thou.
I hate to spoil so many opinions, but the facts are:
The screens are there to min turbulence as the air flows over the sensing element. removing the screens allows for more turbulence and skews the calibration. In some cars it can help, some hurt, but in anycase is just a poor way to do things, the corect answer is having a prom with the right calibration in it.
In the new vettes they removed the screens, BUT ALSO, they straightened out the air tract pre MAF sensor to do so.
Depending on what brand calibration MAF you run there might be a cone shaped piece in the center of the unit, that is to minimise false air flow reporting due to reversion.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 08:16 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
Here we go again, another expert.
Ill deal with the explanation later or refer you to another post (by me as well) but adding screens adds about 1000 vortices behind the screen wires, which causes a low pressure spot, which is a turbulent condition. Period.
Vortex?
vor·tex (vôrtks)
n. pl. vor·tex·es or vor·ti·ces (-t-sz)
A spiral motion of fluid within a limited area, especially a whirling mass of water or air that sucks everything near it toward its center.
Votex, by example are due to the spanwise flow of air off of a tip of a wing.
The screens cause no spiral motion.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2001, 10:38 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Vader:
Sonic shockwave protection of the hot wire is another function of the screens, whether from lean backfire or intake valve pulses (you know, the waves that make the TPI theory work in the first place!).
??.
Why on the latest versions did they delete them if the above is true?.
It would be intersting to see if there is any sonic flow that far out from an intake valve, but with all the bends and twists, I would find it hard to imagine that a sonic wave could exist.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2001, 09:52 AM #22
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt87GTA:
Hmmmmmm........ never thought about that. Yet another reason to get a forced induction setup..... lol........
Well, not quite.
My GN runs better with the screen in the MAF then with it removed. Thou it does run better with the divider removed (Late style MAF)
---------------------------------
5 accel wires
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 03-18-2007, 10:48 AM #4
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 396V8 View Post
the IAC park position is 160 counts....
when my engine is cold, its at 160, and still its not enough air to get a stable idle...
min IAC is 40 counts
Upon start-up the IAC should be at the park position count.
Upon, RUN, that should stay the same, or slightly ramp to a lower number.
If 160 ain't enough, then you have a poor combo of IAC pintle, too low of min idle setting, incorrect amount of timg for a cold engine, or a mechanical issue.
First try opening the min idle screw say 3/4 of a turn.
BTW, start with a clear head, a clean sheet of note book pager, and notes with * A NEW BEGINNING*. It sounds like you've been chasing things, rather than analysising them. Taking detailed notes of trends, ALWAYS works.
---------------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 03-18-2007, 10:59 AM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
The first thing to do when tuning your car is gathering info.. Yes, reading up on what others are doing is grande, BUT, often people fall into the mind trap if *A little is good more is better, and too much is just enough. There is a false preception that the more timing you can run the better. Ain't true, all that gets you is too much timing, too much fuel, and knocking the corners off the pistons, or breaking rings.
So, start with a moderate amount of timing, and work DOWN from there. With some old vintge heads, you might need 38d, but none of the new, or *FAST BURN* heads will need that much timing.
If you were to draw out a piston in a cylinder, and then look at it's position at 38d and 32d, you'd realize just how much wasted energy that much timing generates. You want the peak pressure at 12d after TDC, so using 38d advance means the flame is burning for ~50d of piston movement, vs say 45d. That gives detonation alot of TIME to develope.
Then in order to really see if your going in the right directions, you want to use a G-Tech or some sort of timing devise, since to most people their butt dynos are fooled by too much timing, and fuel, *feel* faster.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------
Old 03-14-2007, 04:48 PM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetucker00 View Post
I am really not trying to "tune" as much as I was just trying to set some initial settings for the new 383 vs the 305.
Do you think I shouldn't mess with anything until it is finished?
There's no sense in trying to put together a temp tune. All it does is mislead your thinking, and sending you off on tangents.
Plus, none of your intial notes will mean a thing.
Grumpy is offline
-------------------------------
Old 03-13-2007, 09:02 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAR_Tudor View Post
IAC steps are running in the 140's.
You gotta problem.
Your relying on the ecm do to ALL your idle control, and using a simple hammer/ bang, closed loop system to then try and fudge the AFRs, towards, AVERAGING a Stoich AFR. (you didn't state if your running closed looped or not from what I've read), not to mention idle speed control, that's half based on timing, which does effect AFRs.
-------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 03-12-2007, 07:23 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAR_Tudor View Post
[font=Arial][size=3]Has anyone ever witnessed a situation where there is an apparent imbalance in Air/Fuel Ratio (AFR) between cylinders in an engine?
First off, EGTs drop from being rich of lean of Stoic..
If you want an well balanced engine, then you want 8 ecms, with an IR intake system, all running closed looped.
Getting 8 cylinders to contribute evenly is one of the challenges of engine.
Hook a scope to a WB, and you can see slight variances with most any engine.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 03-02-2007, 09:05 PM #3
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillZ View Post
I ran across a couple of posts mentioning $60 code for the '749 while searching around here today. The links were kind of old, what's happened with that? Is it still a viable route to go? Is is a major improvement over $58?
I've just built a new engine and have to start re-tuning, so this would be a good time for a code code upgrade too.
Died from lack of anyone wanting to work on it. I thought it would make a nice joint effort project, but alias, no one really wanted to do any work.
If you want to do a boosted engine, IMO, the only good code out there is the EBL.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
-------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-26-2007, 07:57 PM #20
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
Is there some on line pics of the 2 TB's (with the different IAC channels) you talk of?.
I *think* on of the things your seeing, with the warmer it gets problem, is due to the fuel being more gaseous, ie better vaporized, as oppsed to atomized at the lower *MAT* temps.. Once, ya get to a MT (Manifold Temp) of ~130dF, you're at the lower end aromatics boiling temps.. Running above or below this temp., is the *advantage* of the air gap type manifolds, to a certain degree. I've talked about this in the past with my dropped floor plenum manifold, where any raw fuel, has to drop below runner level, and then has to be vaporized to get off the floor, and into the runner.
Juss adding some fuel to chew on......
Not dismissin what you've found by any means....
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
------------------------------
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2007, 11:53 AM #7
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
iTrader: (0)
The 730, was an engineering exercise at GM. It was an attempt to have the most universal ecm (within practical limits) possible. At the time of it's design it was ward winning.
The 165 was just the opposite, ie used only a 1/2 PCB, and was just enought to get the job done. It from day one had issues, most notibly, not having enough solder holding things together.
The interval between the two were millions of cars, and billions of miles.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
----------------------------------
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-11-2006, 10:55 PM #1
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Weird MAF table...
See the attachment before reading on...
I did some datalogging with a wideband and Im seeing some funny results. It looks like there is a kink in the table for some reason. Its almost as if its two MAF curves superimposed over eachother. I dont think its anything on the computers side as it appears to be producing the correct output for a given input.
I suspected that there would be a point in the cars operating range where the flow through a big MAF would go from laminar to turbulent. It seems logical as, from the reynold's number, it should start off laminar and go turbulent at some point at higher flowrates. Anyone think this could be the possibility? Maybe the MAF is hosed? Its definatly the right direction as the car is wicked lean in that area with the stock LS1 MAF table. With that table, its fairly close for the most part. The intake track itself is basically a large cone air filter, MAF, and then the carb hat hooked up to the TBI. I dont know, maybe there really is such a thing as 'too big'.
Attached Thumbnails
weird-maf-table-maf.gif
__________________
Nothing can be accomplished without passion? unless there?s money involved.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2006, 11:42 PM #2
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
See the attachment before reading on...
I did some datalogging with a wideband and Im seeing some funny results. It looks like there is a kink in the table for some reason. Its almost as if its two MAF curves superimposed over eachother. I dont think its anything on the computers side as it appears to be producing the correct output for a given input.
I suspected that there would be a point in the cars operating range where the flow through a big MAF would go from laminar to turbulent. It seems logical as, from the reynold's number, it should start off laminar and go turbulent at some point at higher flowrates. Anyone think this could be the possibility? Maybe the MAF is hosed? Its definatly the right direction as the car is wicked lean in that area with the stock LS1 MAF table. With that table, its fairly close for the most part. The intake track itself is basically a large cone air filter, MAF, and then the carb hat hooked up to the TBI. I dont know, maybe there really is such a thing as 'too big'.
I am not seeing the same problem as you though.
This is what my MAF table looks like
It holds between 12.4 and 12.7 on the Wideband across the RPM band.
I think it is that large straight piece of pipe that you are using for an intake.
My intake setup has a couple of large sweeping turns too it.
Attached Thumbnails
weird-maf-table-maf-table.jpg
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2006, 11:59 PM #3
RednGold86Z
Senior Member
RednGold86Z's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: All over China, Iowa, and San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 1,522
Car: 1989 GTA, 1986 Z28
Engine: 5.7 TPI, LG4
Transmission: 700R4, 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.27, 2.73
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Send a message via Yahoo to RednGold86Z
This is TBI? Like standard 454 TB with big injectors? Or some other setup?
If it has something like dead-headed injectors, and a solid fuel system, I could imagine a harmonic resonance in the fuel system, but that would show a strong RPM correlation, not a MAF problem. Could add an accumulator (basically a fuel pressure regulator with the outlet blocked).
I'd try a longer straight intake pipe between MAF and air filter, and then try a longer pipe between MAF and hat, and see if either makes a difference.
RednGold86Z is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2006, 12:37 AM #4
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RednGold86Z View Post
This is TBI? Like standard 454 TB with big injectors? Or some other setup?
I'd try a longer straight intake pipe between MAF and air filter, and then try a longer pipe between MAF and hat, and see if either makes a difference.
This is with TBI.
Dimented one other thing, you might be setting up a standing wave in that particular area. My suggestion is to put a 45 or 90* corner in the intake tract and see if this anomoly goes away.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2006, 07:45 AM #5
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
I think it is that large straight piece of pipe that you are using for an intake.
The weird thing is that I dont have any piping. The maf, cone element, and carb hat are all hooked to each other. If it was resonance, id expect to see it be more a function of RPM. Id also think fuel, but that would show with RPMs as well. This seems to be global and based on MAF flow more then anything else. I was also thinking of trying the old setup with piping, but I recall having standing wave issues with that. Seems like it needs to be more non-uniform like the later intake systems. Ill have to keep looking...
Last edited by dimented24x7 : 12-12-2006 at 07:49 AM.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 08:20 PM #6
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
I lied. Im still stumped...
Last edited by dimented24x7 : 12-15-2006 at 08:35 PM.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 08:37 PM #7
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
I did reconfigure the MAF ducting. It did help, and the car does go 0-60 in 5 seconds or so, but its still lean down low.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 08:58 PM #8
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
I did reconfigure the MAF ducting. It did help, and the car does go 0-60 in 5 seconds or so, but its still lean down low.
While my Van does run well with the MAF setup, I have not been able to achieve the same WOT power that a well tuned EBL setup would give. Then again I haven't even made any 8192 logs, just used my scan tool, a scratch pad.
On a side note, what engine are you running now Dimented.
Is that the deep dished piston HD 20270 crate 350 TBI with Vortec heads and 204/214 "RV" cam combo that you have been running? If so, I might need to pull out my Vortecs, blend the bowls a little, port the exhaust, cut them for 2.02/1.60s and swap them on.
Last edited by Fast355 : 12-15-2006 at 09:01 PM.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 09:30 PM #9
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Can you post a pic of the intake tract?.
Might be your MAF table is reflecting something *reversion* wise going on. The air flow has to match what the engine's *demand* is. ie If the engine has some point where the mechanical VE goes high or takes a dip, the fuel *demand* will make the same change.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 10:30 PM #10
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
I think I figured it out. After some more tuning, I got a standard MAF table with no kinks in it. Like you implied, the problem only happens below 1800 RPM. I think the issue is backflow from cylinder pulses in the intake. Easy way to fix it is not to operate the engine at low RPMs/high load, or run a baffle style MAF. Nothings perfect, I guess. Thats probably why GM has the dynamic fueling.
Fast, its a 350 w/ vortec heads, edelbrock intake and performer plus 'RV' cam. Has 8.7:1 or so CR. I finally got the timing fully dialed in (needs LOTS of it), and it is SICK. Doesnt pull real high, but has cummins turbo diesel like torque through 3600 RPM. Have you done any wideband datalogs? How about the timing? From tonight, the MAF is very sensitive to the intake configuration. Incidetally, at WOT, SD works fine with TBI as theres not much fuel dynamics at high MAPs. Its only at part throttle that I had all the problems.
Last edited by dimented24x7 : 12-16-2006 at 12:57 PM.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 04:45 PM #11
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Might be your MAF table is reflecting something *reversion* wise going on.
Its definatly a reversion issue. Once the throttle passes a certain point, it bogs down at low RPMs. Let out a little bit and the AFRs immediatly come right back up. Its not a huge issue, but a little annoying with a stick. With the auto, it was never an issue as it was impossible to go below 1500 RPMs.
Ive seen that companies make probe MAFs specifically designed to handle reversion. Ill have to try one one of these days.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 08:33 PM #12
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
Its definatly a reversion issue. Once the throttle passes a certain point, it bogs down at low RPMs. Let out a little bit and the AFRs immediatly come right back up. Its not a huge issue, but a little annoying with a stick. With the auto, it was never an issue as it was impossible to go below 1500 RPMs.
I have noticed that as well ocassionally. My Van will ocassionally go lean as I open the throttle in OD with the converter locked. At 45-50 MPH it is only turning like 1,100-1,200 RPM. After it hits about 1,500-1,600 it is fine, just down low such as pulling a hill at 45-50 MPH it goes lean and starts bucking lightly.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 09:01 PM #13
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Yeah, its similar with mine. Goes lean at very low RPMs and high throttle. Other then that, it runs well. Guess Ill have to take the good with the bad...
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 09:43 PM #14
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
Guess Ill have to take the good with the bad...
Or, go MAP.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 10:32 PM #15
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Or, go MAP.
Funny you mention that. It did it with the MAP to, except worse. I think mine is more an overall combination problem.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 11:30 PM #16
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Or, go MAP.
If I had MPFI or TPI I would... I have a CAI and its bad enough having the AE be a moving target. The MAF is also nice because its easy to tune.
Fast, have you looked at the timing in that area? Might also be a good idea to verify it with a WB before coming to a conclusion, if you havnt already. It could also be that the lower flows in the MAF table are off. My table needed alot of tweaking as the actual flow and the reported differed alot.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2006, 02:29 PM #17
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
If I had MPFI or TPI I would... I have a CAI and its bad enough having the AE be a moving target. The MAF is also nice because its easy to tune.
Count the total number of data points, that have to be tuned, and there's just not that much of a difference. There are a large number of table entries that the engine can never acheive.
Hmm, easy to tune, and here you are having reversion/ tuning issues....
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2006, 02:34 PM #18
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
Funny you mention that. It did it with the MAP to, except worse. I think mine is more an overall combination problem.
You're right, nothing will cure a bad combination.
So far thou, I haven't seen a combo., that didn't run it's best on MAP. With MAF your always, always having to fight the misreporting error of manifold filling. Well, as far as with a hi-po combination, goes. The transistional AE will always be something you have to chase around with a MAF. Long small runners, and a small plenum are all crutches to not needing much AE, interestingly enough that discribes TP to a *T*. But, even with those items, GM still went to MAP in the later TP's.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2006, 08:22 PM #19
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Count the total number of data points, that have to be tuned, and there's just not that much of a difference. There are a large number of table entries that the engine can never acheive.
Hmm, easy to tune, and here you are having reversion/ tuning issues....
With TBI, MAP isnt as easy to tune. It can be purely empirical based on the setup (standard carb intake and CAI). If you look at the PCMs, the IAT isnt used at all, even though there is sophisticated routine in there to blend the temps and calculate the true inverse density term. With TBI, the intake charge temp goes all over creation. Basically its like injecting R-134A into the intake randomly and chilling it. Really has the potential to throw the fueling into a top hat. With MAF, the fueling is fairly consistent with TBI.
As for the tuning, its one small area that normally would never be realized with an automatic. With 2.77's and a TKO, its real easy to duck into low RPMs, and even easier to dump down below 600 RPM where the timing is reduced to prevent the engine from kicking the starter clear off the block. Other then that, its quite drivable, and runs as well as an old **** heap can be expected to. 0-60 in 5 seconds with good low end torque aint bad for an old junker
We could go on and re-ignite the whole MAF vs. SD arguments, but in some apps, one system will work better while some apps the other will work better. Despite the whole low end bog at max throttle, I definatly prefer MAF with the TBI setup. It decouples the fueling from the engine and the fuel dynamics. If I had MPFI, Id probably run SD. The MAF has very good resolution, and is more versital then SD, but lacks the dynamic range. Conversly, with SD, the fueling and engine are closely coupled. Neither sysem is perfect... Such is life.
Last edited by dimented24x7 : 12-17-2006 at 08:39 PM.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2006, 08:31 PM #20
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
You're right, nothing will cure a bad combination.
So far thou, I haven't seen a combo., that didn't run it's best on MAP. With MAF your always, always having to fight the misreporting error of manifold filling. Well, as far as with a hi-po combination, goes. The transistional AE will always be something you have to chase around with a MAF. Long small runners, and a small plenum are all crutches to not needing much AE, interestingly enough that discribes TP to a *T*. But, even with those items, GM still went to MAP in the later TP's.
They do make MAFs that can handle the full range of inputs, take a look at fords MAFs with the baffles to prevent low RPM cylinder pulse reversion at high loads. Another likely reason they dumped it is that bosch MAFs where complete garbage, not to mention the poor resolution the 8 bit systems had. +/-4% varience in the idle fueling is terrible. The later hybrid systems on the LS1s are definatly the shizzle. Very smooth running setup.
To some extent, the AE is also there to cover up delays as well as enrich the acceleration. One issue Ive had with both MAF and MAP is the need for a short pulse of AE to cover for lag in the system. The AFRs will go dead lean for a split second without some form of a short, quick pulse to cover the transition.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 12:02 PM #21
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
I took another look at the datalogs from this. It doesnt look like an issue with the MAF at all. The MAF is reporting around 100-120 gms/sec at 1800-2200 RPM. This equates to VEs of around 95%. The PWs too are in line with the airflow. The PCM and MAF are doing what theyre supposed to be doing, but still the AFRs where dipping down to 20:1 at WOT until the RPMs come up a bit. Also not giving full throttle to the motor will bypass the issue to a good extent. It will also not happen at higher RPMs. the lower the RPM, the worse it is.
It could be a fuel issue, but the pressure is steady at 18 PSI, so the pump is ok.
Could this instead be some cam timing issue, or maybe the fuel pulses being scavanged out of the cylinder by the cam overlap? something wacky with the injectors? This is definatly one wierd and very strange problem. Even at full injector duty cycle at low RPMs it still leans out a little. When it does have fuel, it goes like hell. It also has a slightly lopey idle, which is strange for a cam with only 204 degrees of intake duration. In addition, it sounds like theres ball bearings bouncing around in my y-pipe when the engines under load. Sounds like fuel burning off in the exhaust.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 12:27 PM #22
jwscab
TGO Supporter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: NJ
Posts: 689
Car: Yes
Engine: Many
Transmission: Quite a few
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Sounds an awful lot like where the cam starts it's effective range. You start scavenging more effectively, and the engine VE is going to be high. You might be stripping the fuel off of the intake walls, and causing a momentary lean spot. Could be that on the throttle transition, you need to kick out some extra fuel.
jwscab is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 12:35 PM #23
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Aye, captain, shes giving us everything shes got...
Ive gotten to the point where Im at 100%+ DC with the added MAP and TPS AE during transition. Fast355 reports his engine is pig rich with these settings during AE, so its definatly me. In third or fourth with sudden WOT, it starts off dead lean and gradually gets richer and richer until it comes up to the desired AFR at 3000 RPM. The MAF and PW readings look good. Sometimes its ok, but alot of times it just goes dead lean and doesn make much power. My theory is that maybe the fuel pulse is being sucked clear out into the exhaust.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 04:19 PM #24
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
I wonder if slewing the injector firing timing would help? Maybe delay the firings enough to give the exhaust valves time to seat on the cylinders that will be on their intake cycles.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 04:36 PM #25
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Dimented,
How much fuel are you running on your combination?
I have been tuning Kurt's (OldRed95 on FSC) 1995 C1500s TBI 350 and have found that I had to peak out his VE table around 2,000-2,800 rpm, despite running 61 lb/hr injectors at 25 PSI. His engine is basically the same as yours. The more fuel we keep giving it, the more it responds with that fuel.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 04:48 PM #26
Dominic Sorresso
Senior Member
Dominic Sorresso's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bartlett, IL
Posts: 915
Car: 92 ZR-1
Engine: LT-5
Transmission: ZF-6
Axle/Gears: 3.45:1 Dana 44
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Dominic Sorresso
dim,
You think your experience is analogous to what I have been discussing in this thread?
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...n-pattern.html (Strange VE Learn Pattern)
Dominic Sorresso is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 08:01 PM #27
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
It could be, but this seems to be a high MAP problem on my car. At low kPa's, its fine. At higher kPa's is when it starts to lean out and make that annoying bouncing ball bearings sound in the y-pipe.
It definatly responds to more fuel, but the calculated VEs are around 150%, which doesnt make much sense. Once the RPMs build, the AFRs come back in line. Due to the fact that it can fuel it even at increasing PWs and speeds leads me to believe around 160 PPH should be enough to feed it down low, unless there is something really FUBAR. I donno...
My best guess is that the exhaust pulses are vacuuming out the manifold at higher vacuum and low RPMs. Its really bad at around 400-600 RPM. Starts reading in % oxygen on the wideband. It was also an issue with the old ECM and ignition system. Its a damn strange problem. Ill have to keep looking, maybe theres some more logical reason for it.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 08:04 PM #28
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
It could be, but this seems to be a high MAP problem on my car. At low kPa's, its fine. At higher kPa's is when it starts to lean out and make that annoying bouncing ball bearings sound in the y-pipe.
It definatly responds to more fuel, but the calculated VEs are around 150%, which doesnt make much sense. Once the RPMs build, the AFRs come back in line. Due to the fact that it can fuel it even at increasing PWs and speeds leads me to believe around 160 PPH should be enough to feed it down low, unless there is something really FUBAR. I donno...
My best guess is that the exhaust pulses are vacuuming out the manifold at higher vacuum and low RPMs. Its really bad at around 400-600 RPM. Starts reading in % oxygen on the wideband. It was also an issue with the old ECM and ignition system. Its a damn strange problem. Ill have to keep looking, maybe theres some more logical reason for it.
I had to ditch the cone style filter on mine. Put in an Astro style air box with matching filter. The cone filter was disrupting the MAF sensor readings.
I honestly still have not touched the stock 5.3 MAF tables, except to put 5 gms/sec in the lowest cell.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 08:32 PM #29
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Just remembered this... Know what else is interesting, they force async fire at 80 Hz above 1300 RPM and around 55 kPa in these PCMs. Basically Im in async whenever Im at higher loads. I wonder if that is the issue? It seems plausable as the large, sudden intake pulses could be left high and dry with the injectors dribbling out fuel at 80 Hz rather then delivering it all in one shot in sync fire. With my luck itll agrivate the problem more being full sync, but if it cures the lean issue, Im going to drop a nuke on its *** and blow the manditory async code out of my bin. Im praying for thick clouds of black smoke out the tail pipe next time I hit the gas.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 08:41 PM #30
Dominic Sorresso
Senior Member
Dominic Sorresso's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bartlett, IL
Posts: 915
Car: 92 ZR-1
Engine: LT-5
Transmission: ZF-6
Axle/Gears: 3.45:1 Dana 44
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Dominic Sorresso
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
Just remembered this... Know what else is interesting, they force async fire at 80 Hz above 1300 RPM and around 55 kPa in these PCMs. Basically Im in async whenever Im at higher loads. I wonder if that is the issue? It seems plausable as the large, sudden intake pulses could be left high and dry with the injectors dribbling out fuel at 80 Hz rather then delivering it all in one shot in sync fire. With my luck itll agrivate the problem more being full sync, but if it cures the lean issue, Im going to drop a nuke on its *** and blow the manditory async code out of my bin. Im praying for thick clouds of black smoke out the tail pipe next time I hit the gas.
Dim,
Interesting that you bring up asynch fueling. I have asynch disabled in my bin.
Dominic Sorresso is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 08:43 PM #31
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
Just remembered this... Know what else is interesting, they force async fire at 80 Hz above 1300 RPM and around 55 kPa in these PCMs. Basically Im in async whenever Im at higher loads. I wonder if that is the issue? It seems plausable as the large, sudden intake pulses could be left high and dry with the injectors dribbling out fuel at 80 Hz rather then delivering it all in one shot in sync fire. With my luck itll agrivate the problem more being full sync, but if it cures the lean issue, Im going to drop a nuke on its *** and blow the manditory async code out of my bin. Im praying for thick clouds of black smoke out the tail pipe next time I hit the gas.
I've had the manditory Asynch disabled to 4,000 RPM in mine. The stock Van bin is disabled to 4,000 rpm then switches to Asynch. I have had a high rpm miss for sometime now. Going to push the manditory asynch up to 6,400 rpm and see how about 4,000 rpm runs now.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 09:03 PM #32
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
The RPM thresholds dont actually do anything as the MAP thresholds are checked FIRST. If these are met, the PCM enters async. Ive had the same issue, a strange, high frequency shudder at high RPMs. Hopefully deleting the code will kill two birds with one stone.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 09:16 PM #33
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
The RPM thresholds dont actually do anything as the MAP thresholds are checked FIRST. If these are met, the PCM enters async. Ive had the same issue, a strange, high frequency shudder at high RPMs. Hopefully deleting the code will kill two birds with one stone.
The MAP thresholds are checked first, but the RPM to enable still has to be met.
I am going to bump the MAP up as high as it will go and do the same with the RPM. Will let you know how it goes. At WOT, it definately waits until 4,000 rpm to enter asynch though.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 10:11 PM #34
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Oops... I stand corrected. Went back and checked and the RPM threshold will disable it.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-22-2007, 10:18 PM #35
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Man, got my hopes up too that I might have found the problem, lol...
I dont know, then. Maybe async is the answer. It does seem to be ok and starts recovering once its gotten up past 1500 RPM. Ill have to tinker with it and see if it makes any difference.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-23-2007, 07:36 AM #36
RBob
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 6,517
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Classifieds Rating: (1)
I've found that to run async for the main fueling that the injector duty cycle has to be high. Greater then 90% is best. Otherwise it just doen't run right. I figured it had to do with fuel distribution. Some cylinders will be lean with others rich. All depends upon when the injectors fire and which cylinders are inhaling at the time.
RBob.
RBob is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-23-2007, 08:59 AM #37
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Ive found that out as well. At lower DCs, the engine acts odd at higher loads and speeds.
Whats driving me crazy, though, is that at low speed/high loads its going really lean for no real reason at all. The fuel should be getting in there. At part throttle its fine, but once the loads build, it leans way out at low speed. I wonder if delivering the fuel as shorter pulses at a high frequency would help when its under low RPM, high load?
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-23-2007, 11:17 AM #38
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
Ive found that out as well. At lower DCs, the engine acts odd at higher loads and speeds.
Whats driving me crazy, though, is that at low speed/high loads its going really lean for no real reason at all. The fuel should be getting in there. At part throttle its fine, but once the loads build, it leans way out at low speed. I wonder if delivering the fuel as shorter pulses at a high frequency would help when its under low RPM, high load?
Here is what happened at WOT with stock 68# injector running asynch on my stockish 1991 G20. Notice the graph at WOT and high RPM.
I turned the asynch off and redyno'd in hotter conditions. On a 15* hotter day with the clutch fan engaged, it lost 10 ft/lbs of torque, but held the same peak HP. It felt much stronger at high RPM when the fan was disengaged.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-23-2007, 11:55 AM #39
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Thats exactly what mine does at high RPMs. The cylinder intake cycles are much faster then the injector firings at high RPMs in async and it gets a strange high frequency vibration from it. Probably the rich, lean, leaner, rich, lean, leaner... as the injector firings are out of sync with the intake cycles. Im going to disable it and see how it works then.
Im also wondering whether or not this is still an AE issue down low. How much fuel does an accelerator pump deliver over time in a carb? Im going to max everything out as a last ditch effort and see what happens.
Last edited by dimented24x7 : 01-23-2007 at 12:00 PM.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-23-2007, 12:35 PM #40
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
Thats exactly what mine does at high RPMs. The cylinder intake cycles are much faster then the injector firings at high RPMs in async and it gets a strange high frequency vibration from it. Probably the rich, lean, leaner, rich, lean, leaner... as the injector firings are out of sync with the intake cycles. Im going to disable it and see how it works then.
Im also wondering whether or not this is still an AE issue down low. How much fuel does an accelerator pump deliver over time in a carb? Im going to max everything out as a last ditch effort and see what happens.
Have you thought of lowering the TPS to enable PE down low and richening up the PE a/f ratio there as well?
Holley uses 30 and 50 cc accelerator pumps.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-23-2007, 02:15 PM #41
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
30-50 CCs is around 20-35 grams of fuel. Wonder how fast its delivered? Over 2-3 seconds? Thats actually a decent chunk of fuel.
----------
Ive thought of enriching down lower, but Id like to actually get it to target the correct AFR. It seems the MAF is reporting a reasonable ammount of flow for the load and engine speed, so it should be in the ball park AFR wise.
Last edited by dimented24x7 : 01-23-2007 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-24-2007, 12:53 PM #42
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Im definatly thinking this is an AE issue. It seems like this manifold needs LOTS and LOTS of fuel during transition. Added alot more and it definatly helps. Now, though, the AFRs are pegged at full rich when the throttle closes after AE. Its really bad after cruising on the highway. Hit the gas and booooggggg. Ive felt the manifold and it gets really cold while driving the car. Im probably going to have to put an RTD right in the manifold wall so I can actually see what temperature it is. Right now the AE is all over the place when its based off of the cool temp as the manifold is at whatever temp if feels like being.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-24-2007, 11:21 PM #43
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Think I figured out the other half of the problem. I didnt have any filtering set for the MAF at high loads, so the computer seemed to be fueling per the instantanious airflow, which is near zero when there arnt any intake cycles. No intake cycle when the MAF is read, no fuel... Set the filtering so Id get more of an integrated signal, and it seems to work much better. No bogging down low and it tolerates lugging the motor. This car likes to get my hopes up, so Ill wait and see how it works when I try it again with a little less AE.
Last edited by dimented24x7 : 01-24-2007 at 11:24 PM.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-24-2007, 11:32 PM #44
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimented24x7 View Post
Think I figured out the other half of the problem. I didnt have any filtering set for the MAF at high loads, so the computer seemed to be fueling per the instantanious airflow, which is near zero when there arnt any intake cycles. No intake cycle when the MAF is read, no fuel... Set the filtering so Id get more of an integrated signal, and it seems to work much better. No bogging down low and it tolerates lugging the motor. This car likes to get my hopes up, so Ill wait and see how it works when I try it again with a little less AE.
I wonder if I just have never noticed it with my combo. The automatic with a 2,600 rpm converter just doesn't load the engine like a 5 spd can. If I hammer the gas it lays over for maybe 1/2 second than takes off like a unguided missle. I have always seen grey smoke out of the pipes though when I hammer it. I still have almost no AE to it. Atleast not compared to what you were running with your setup. Yours was so rich it would nearly flood the engine out on a quick throttle romp at idle.
Last edited by Fast355 : 01-24-2007 at 11:35 PM.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2007, 12:03 AM #45
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
I think it was a big mistake on my part to underestimate the speed of the sensor. In reality, its probably faster then greased lightning. It makes sense as the lower the RPMs, the more discrete the signal is, so the fueling would crater if the sensor reads and intake pulses where out of phase with eachother. Another strange problem... Im surprised it ocured to me in the first place to check it.
In the later MAFs, they may have put something in to integrate the signal internally. If its blowing black smoke and is rich on the wideband, then I wouldnt sweat it.
This is what I was using and it seems to help alot. Potentially itll never be perfect, though, as there will always be some aliasing in the signal at low RPMs.
Attached Thumbnails
weird-maf-table-table.gif
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2007, 11:56 AM #46
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Works ok now with the filtering to integrate the signal. Acts the same way it did when I put it back in speed density last night. Momentary stumble at low RPMs and then it goes fine. No stumble at all when warm, so it must be too much AE when cold. About time...
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2007, 06:27 PM #47
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Did some real time high speed datalogs and the MAF output is a very dirty signal at WOT. Alot of it is from the engine intaking air, but a good chunk is also from the resolution limits of the hardware. Without the filtering, the PCM was tracking along the signal. Slide filtering helps alot and the car doesnt go dead lean for a long time like it did before. Leans a little, but recovers and goes just fine. Think adding a moving average filter would help on the frequency side?
The first graph is a 300 msec snap shot of the frequency output at higher RPMs. The second is another 300 msec snapshot of taking off in second gear from a dead stop.
Attached Thumbnails
weird-maf-table-chart.jpg
Last edited by dimented24x7 : 01-27-2007 at 06:30 PM.
dimented24x7 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2007, 07:21 PM #48
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Where are you picking off the data? Is that data taken directly off the MAF sensor itself through a F/V converter? What hardware are you saying lacks the resolution, the PCM or your logging hardware? A lack of resolution acts as a filter in and of itself. From the looks of the datalog and then looking at a MAF table from an LS1, you are varying about 200 Hz at 7.6 kHz. That is about an 8.8 gm/sec swing at 108 gm/sec. Right at 8%, a whole lot. A moving average filter will definetly help but I think the 20 point filter in the graph is too much. JMHO
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2007, 09:48 PM #49
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
Where are you picking off the data? Is that data taken directly off the MAF sensor itself through a F/V converter? What hardware are you saying lacks the resolution, the PCM or your logging hardware? A lack of resolution acts as a filter in and of itself. From the looks of the datalog and then looking at a MAF table from an LS1, you are varying about 200 Hz at 7.6 kHz. That is about an 8.8 gm/sec swing at 108 gm/sec. Right at 8%, a whole lot. A moving average filter will definetly help but I think the 20 point filter in the graph is too much. JMHO
I am curious about his wiring setup.
The setup has the frequency straight from the MAF going into the speed sensor circuitry in the ECM. Straight shot, NO converters of any kind.
I am running the stock 85mm MAF sensor on mine from a LS1/5.3 Vortec. I am running the stock MAF table from the newer LS1. Sits right at 125-131 BLM at all times, except at idle with the A/C on where it creeps up around 140 BLM.
Still don't fully understand his problem with the setup.
I think Dimented is talking about the rate at which the MAF signal is read by the code as well as possibly the datalogging equipment.
On the other hand, I have Monday off and am going to have to change yet another U-joint. HORRIBLE vibration again while accelerating around 2,500-3,500 rpm at part throttle. Checked and its the rear U-joint AGAIN. Crappy Taiwan U-joint. Anyone know of a good old quality AMERICAN piece to replace it with. Its taken a horrible beating lately.
Last edited by Fast355 : 01-27-2007 at 09:56 PM.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2007, 10:29 PM #50
dimented24x7
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moorestown, NJ
Posts: 8,068
Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: 350 vortec w/ TBI
Transmission: Tweaked, leaking TKO
Axle/Gears: Yet another 9-bolt w/ 2.77's
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to dimented24x7
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
Where are you picking off the data? Is that data taken directly off the MAF sensor itself through a F/V converter? What hardware are you saying lacks the resolution, the PCM or your logging hardware? A lack of resolution acts as a filter in and of itself. From the looks of the datalog and then looking at a MAF table from an LS1, you are varying about 200 Hz at 7.6 kHz. That is about an 8.8 gm/sec swing at 108 gm/sec. Right at 8%, a whole lot. A moving average filter will definetly help but I think the 20 point filter in the graph is too much. JMHO
Like fast said, it goes right into the PCM, no converters. The resolution is actually quite good. A 'good chunk' was bad wording on my part. Me not thinking before typing. I think the main problem is the fast response of the MAF sensor. There is a small ammount (<2%) error due to uncertainty in the counters as well as ~2% from the sensor itself, from what Ive read. This doesnt do much by itself, but it probably does factor in with all the other airflow noise in the intake. At light throttle and idle, the noise is just a percent or two. It was actually faster with the throttle partially closed at high loads without filtering. Probably because the restriction acted to filter out the intake pulses by itself. The 'noise' does seem to be actual airflow, so the average of all that should yeild the true airflow rate over time.
Fast, it shouldnt be, and never was, an issue with an auto as youll never actually get to low RPM, high load operation. At low RPMs, the instantanious airflow varies by +/- 20%. This causes the motor to run real erratic. When Im going around a corner in 2nd, without the filtering, the engine would plain crap out when I got back on the gas. Works ok with the filtering, but still goes somewhat lean at 800 RPM or so. Even that is more then tolerable, but Id like to see if using a rolling average filter on the frequency can help smooth things out even more. Ill have to tinker with it in excel and see what looks good. GM has one in these PCMs for filtering the derivative of the TIS input. That uses a full 50 samples as well as a convoluted method for weighting the start and end values in the sample set. Im going to take that over for the MAF and tweak it a bit. Maybe have the # of samples used be variable based on RPMs.
--------------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-27-2007, 11:31 PM #1
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
PnH port injectors?
Is there a decent junkyard source for these? I'm debating how to run a 4bbl TBI injection system on my Impala without matching the GDP ($$$). I want to run the EBL on a 7747 with a wiring harness scavenged from yet another junk P30 series 'tater chip truck. I found the part number for the bare Accel 4bbl TBI unit priced realisticly at $349 (instead of Holley 4bbl for $900).
My problem is the Accel TBI uses port style injectors. I found them on Summit for $90 a pop. Seems to me I could junkyard a set for less than $400...
__________________
'96 Bronco: 302, 5-spd, 4wd, 32" tires
'84 Impala: 350 with Dart heads 200cc IR 72cc CC, Ferrea valves, 9.8:1 compression zero clearanced, Comp 276HR cam, Stealth Ram, 30# FMS injectors, long tubes, 2.5" duals, boxed control arms holding a GM 8.5" G80 with 4.10's
I prove the above statement
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2007, 11:40 PM #2
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
Is there a decent junkyard source for these? I'm debating how to run a 4bbl TBI injection system on my Impala without matching the GDP ($$$). I want to run the EBL on a 7747 with a wiring harness scavenged from yet another junk P30 series 'tater chip truck. I found the part number for the bare Accel 4bbl TBI unit priced realisticly at $349 (instead of Holley 4bbl for $900).
My problem is the Accel TBI uses port style injectors. I found them on Summit for $90 a pop. Seems to me I could junkyard a set for less than $400...
WHY peak and hold? The EBL will drive standard PFI injectors from what RBbob told me at one point in time.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 02:02 AM #3
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
Is there a decent junkyard source for these? I'm debating how to run a 4bbl TBI injection system on my Impala without matching the GDP ($$$). I want to run the EBL on a 7747 with a wiring harness scavenged from yet another junk P30 series 'tater chip truck. I found the part number for the bare Accel 4bbl TBI unit priced realisticly at $349 (instead of Holley 4bbl for $900).
My problem is the Accel TBI uses port style injectors. I found them on Summit for $90 a pop. Seems to me I could junkyard a set for less than $400...
I bought a 4 BBL Holley TBI for a stroker project I did off of Ebay for less that $400. It was brand new and had 4 85 lb. injectors (old style). Granted, this was a few years ago but if you are diligent, you can find one fairly easily. If you can't find one, this place has a bunch of different P&H port injectors. Look in the performance injector page. http://www.injector.com/ . HTH
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 10:13 PM #4
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
WHY peak and hold? The EBL will drive standard PFI injectors from what RBbob told me at one point in time.
I checked his website. It says the EBL will drive up to 8 PnH port injectors. I assume it only does PnH. Maybe he or someone else on the design team will chime in.
I could be reading the website wrong tho...
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 10:50 PM #5
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
I checked his website. It says the EBL will drive up to 8 PnH port injectors. I assume it only does PnH. Maybe he or someone else on the design team will chime in.
I could be reading the website wrong tho...
RBob sent me this on 6-23-06.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBob
Chris,
As for the MPFI on the EBL, with saturated injectors the standard setup will work (hardware wise).
If you want to drive 8 PnH port injectors then the ECM needs to be upgraded. Let me know if you need to do that.
BobR.
I know for a fact that a stock TBI ecm will drive 4 peak and hold port style fuel injectors. Two parallel'd on each injector driver. The 1994-1995 Chevy S10 2.2 used peak and hold port style injectors (weird fuel rail though) with a TBI PCM.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 11:04 PM #6
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
I checked his website. It says the EBL will drive up to 8 PnH port injectors. I assume it only does PnH. Maybe he or someone else on the design team will chime in.
I could be reading the website wrong tho...
With the $75 EBL injector upgrade to drive 4 TBI injectors you can indeed drive 8 P&H port injectors. HTH
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 11:14 PM #7
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
With the $75 EBL injector upgrade to drive 4 TBI injectors you can indeed drive 8 P&H port injectors. HTH
The stock EBL will drive 4 P&H port injectors.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 02:27 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
TBI, Peak and Hold Injectors are 1.2 ohms.
Port, Peak and Hold Injectors are 2.4 ohms.
Saturated in either variety are 12-18 ohms.
Just a FWIW
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 11:37 AM #9
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Now I really have no idea what to do
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 01:10 PM #10
vernw
Senior Member
vernw's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas, TX area
Posts: 3,145
Car: 91 Formula WS6 (Black, T-Tops)
Engine: 383 MiniRam (529 HP, 514 TQ - DD2K)
Transmission: Built '97 T56, Pro 5.0, CF-DF
Axle/Gears: 4.10 posi Ford 9"
Classifieds Rating: (2)
So, if I'm reading this correctly - the EBL will drive 8 "standard" TPI injectors? I thought just the opposite was true...
vernw is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 05:45 PM #11
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernw View Post
So, if I'm reading this correctly - the EBL will drive 8 "standard" TPI injectors? I thought just the opposite was true...
It will drive 8 standard TPI injectors.
It will drive 6 as well.
The MPFI intake on my 3.1 using the EBL is a prime example.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 07:02 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
Now I really have no idea what to do
If a stock TBI will run 2 TBI injectors that would be the same electrical load, as 4 port type PnH (2.4 vs 1.2 ohms).
If you want to run more then 4 Port PnH you need additonal injector drivers.
If you want to 4 TBI PnH injectors you need additional drivers.
You can run as many as 8 saturated injectors without issue.
Learning Ohm's Law, would be advisible.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernw View Post
So, if I'm reading this correctly - the EBL will drive 8 "standard" TPI injectors? I thought just the opposite was true...
There is no *standard* TPI/ Port injector. There are saturated, or Peak/Holds. The most commonly used are saturated.
Using the proper terms is a good habit to get into.....
Last edited by Grumpy : 01-29-2007 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 07:54 PM #13
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
If a stock TBI will run 2 TBI injectors that would be the same electrical load, as 4 port type PnH (2.4 vs 1.2 ohms).
If you want to run more then 4 Port PnH you need additonal injector drivers.
If you want to 4 TBI PnH injectors you need additional drivers.
You can run as many as 8 saturated injectors without issue.
Learning Ohm's Law, would be advisible......
The last statement is not always true, at least from my testing. The LM1949 (which GM P&H drivers are, basically) datasheet states that the trip point from peak to hold current is 385 mV. When using a .1 Ohm current sense resistor as GM does, means that the peak current is 3.85 A. Using Ohms law R=E/I where E is voltage, I is current and R is resistance. At 13.8 V and 3.85 A, 13.8 V/3.85 I = 3.58 Ohms. Multiply 3.58 * 4 (for 4 injectors in parallel per driver) and you get 14.33 Ohms. This means that any set of 8 injectors measuring less than 14.33 Ohms each will trip the Peak and Hold driver into hold mode current of 1A total or 250mA per injector max. This is not always enough current to hold a saturated injector open, or so I have found, not to mention that with heat an injectors resistance will drop making the problem worse. HTH
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 10:22 PM #14
vernw
Senior Member
vernw's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas, TX area
Posts: 3,145
Car: 91 Formula WS6 (Black, T-Tops)
Engine: 383 MiniRam (529 HP, 514 TQ - DD2K)
Transmission: Built '97 T56, Pro 5.0, CF-DF
Axle/Gears: 4.10 posi Ford 9"
Classifieds Rating: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
If a stock TBI will run 2 TBI injectors that would be the same electrical load, as 4 port type PnH (2.4 vs 1.2 ohms).
If you want to run more then 4 Port PnH you need additonal injector drivers.
If you want to 4 TBI PnH injectors you need additional drivers.
You can run as many as 8 saturated injectors without issue.
Learning Ohm's Law, would be advisible.
----------
There is no *standard* TPI/ Port injector. There are saturated, or Peak/Holds. The most commonly used are saturated.
Using the proper terms is a good habit to get into.....
I agree, Grumpy. That's why I asked the question - I don't know which injectors are PnP vs. saturated. For example - the SVO 30's I've been running in my SR, and plan to start out with in my AFr/MiniRam set up, aren't those the saturated type? Which means thye probably won't work with the EBL, even with the injector driver upgrade...
The reason I was asking is because I don't know. But I also admit to a bit of laziness - I should have done a search to see what type the SVO 30# injectors are. So I am at fault here, sorry.
vernw is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2007, 06:51 PM #15
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
The MPFI intake on my 3.1 using the EBL is a prime example.
LOL. Do any of your vehicles have untouched electronics?
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2007, 08:58 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
The last statement is not always true, at least from my testing. The LM1949 (which GM P&H drivers are, basically) datasheet states that the trip point from peak to hold current is 385 mV. When using a .1 Ohm current sense resistor as GM does, means that the peak current is 3.85 A. Using Ohms law R=E/I where E is voltage, I is current and R is resistance. At 13.8 V and 3.85 A, 13.8 V/3.85 I = 3.58 Ohms. Multiply 3.58 * 4 (for 4 injectors in parallel per driver) and you get 14.33 Ohms. This means that any set of 8 injectors measuring less than 14.33 Ohms each will trip the Peak and Hold driver into hold mode current of 1A total or 250mA per injector max. This is not always enough current to hold a saturated injector open, or so I have found, not to mention that with heat an injectors resistance will drop making the problem worse. HTH
And without Ohm's Law you'd not have been able to figure that out!.
Thanks, for proving my point.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernw View Post
I agree, Grumpy. That's why I asked the question - I don't know which injectors are PnP vs. saturated.
Put an ohm meter on one, or just do some research.
ALL SATURATED ARE 12-18 OHMS.
If 2.4 ohms (since you're working with port) they're PnH.
Last edited by Grumpy : 01-30-2007 at 09:00 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2007, 09:39 PM #17
vernw
Senior Member
vernw's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas, TX area
Posts: 3,145
Car: 91 Formula WS6 (Black, T-Tops)
Engine: 383 MiniRam (529 HP, 514 TQ - DD2K)
Transmission: Built '97 T56, Pro 5.0, CF-DF
Axle/Gears: 4.10 posi Ford 9"
Classifieds Rating: (2)
Did the research, found out they saturated ar 12-18ohms, and I know for a fact mine are in that range. So the "default" TPI.multi-oint injectors are saturated, not PnH.
Thanks for the info and education (again) Grumpy!
vernw is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2007, 11:30 PM #18
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
And without Ohm's Law you'd not have been able to figure that out!.
Thanks, for proving my point.....
Ohms law is the first thing taught in the EE corriculum in college and it is constantly reinforced throughout. It is the foundation for all things electronic.
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-31-2007, 08:49 PM #19
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernw View Post
Did the research, found out they saturated ar 12-18ohms, and I know for a fact mine are in that range. So the "default" TPI.multi-oint injectors are saturated, not PnH.
Thanks for the info and education (again) Grumpy!
Your welcome, but please let's stick to using the accepted terms, ie saturated.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
Ohms law is the first thing taught in the EE corriculum in college and it is constantly reinforced throughout. It is the foundation for all things electronic.
Yaaaa.....
But, I was addressing the folks here, and I'd venture a guess, that not too many guys have actually used it, which was my point. Getting it down, allows, IMO, for a much better understanding of parallel resistance figuring, which is the crux of this thread.
Last edited by Grumpy : 01-31-2007 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2007, 01:40 PM #20
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
I recently found this...
http://www.msdignition.com/2007/light.html
Check out the "Jammer" injectors at the bottom. The list them for use with saturated AND PnH type drivers. I don't see how that's possible.
??
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2007, 09:25 PM #21
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
I recently found this...
http://www.msdignition.com/2007/light.html
Check out the "Jammer" injectors at the bottom. The list them for use with saturated AND PnH type drivers. I don't see how that's possible.
??
They must be saturated injectors. If they were P&H MSD could not state that. P&H drivers, as explained earlier in this thread, can drive saturated injectors as long as the saturated injector(s) does (do) not draw enough current to "trip" the P&H driver into low current hold mode. Saturated injectors must maintain full current for the duration of the pulsewidth. Saturated drivers cannot drive P&H injectors since there is no low current hold mode and the high "peak" current draw of the low impedance injector for the full duration of the pulsewidth would either blow the driver or overheat the injectors. HTH
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2007, 09:33 PM #22
junkcltr
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: garage
Posts: 2,596
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
They must be saturated injectors. If they were P&H MSD could not state that. P&H drivers, as explained earlier in this thread, can drive saturated injectors as long as the saturated injector(s) does (do) not draw enough current to "trip" the P&H driver into low current hold mode. Saturated injectors must maintain full current for the duration of the pulsewidth. Saturated drivers cannot drive P&H injectors since there is no low current hold mode and the high "peak" current draw of the low impedance injector for the full duration of the pulsewidth would either blow the driver or overheat the injectors. HTH
You are right on both accounts. Don't drive saturated injectors with a PnH driver. Don't drive PnH injectors with a saturated driver. Since the PnH driver is in the linear region of the FET with a large V_drop across it then it heats up more (the reason the V8 $58 guys use a FET that can handle a large temperature). Saturated is nice because the power across the driver is about .3V * total_inj_current or about 2.5 watts for 8 injectors.....not much heat there.
junkcltr is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote
---------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-26-2007, 02:07 PM #1
HowdyDuty
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 70
Car: '84 Chevy 1500
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH350
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Cold Start Frustrations
I've been having a cold start problem with my engine for the longest time and it doesn't seem to matter what I adjust, it doesn't get better. I'm running ARAP code on a somewhat modified engine and I have the fuel pretty close and have no spark knock. Once the engine warms up to closed loop it runs fantastic. Open loop is another story. The engine seems to be lean in open loop, but I've gradually richened up the mixture until I can smell raw fuel out the tail pipe.
When I first start the engine when it's cold it'll fire up great, stumble, die. On restart sometimes it'll chug for about 20-30 seconds then smooth out. What's strange is, it won't idle up to what I have the "idle speed vs coolant temp" chart set at. For example if it's 20 degrees outside and I have the idle set to 1200 rpm, it'll just sit at 650. The odd time if I help the idle come up with my foot on the gas pedal for a minute or so and let off it'll hold the idle up for a wee bit.
I've adjusted 'crank fuel vs temp', every spark chart, the map tables, the map scalars, and I cannot get a nice smooth start with the engine revving up to what the 'idle speed vs coolant temp' chart states.
If I run AUJM code the starts are better even if I copy my current fuel and spark tables from my currently running ARAP bin. So why not just run the AUJM code then? For some reason I still have more power with the ARAP bin despite identicle spark maps, fuel maps, and scalars. I'm frustrated with it and am getting tired of having to hold my foot on the gas pedal until the engine warms up.
Thanks for the help,
-Howdy
HowdyDuty is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-26-2007, 05:53 PM #2
884+3
Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pa
Posts: 152
Car: 88 irocz
Engine: b2l 350
Transmission: corvette 4+3
Classifieds Rating: (0)
What program are you using to tune with. Definitly sounds like a fueling problem. There should be open loop fuel tables to adjust. Make sure your IAC valve is clean and check the motor windings with a multimeter. Im using TunerPro for tuning and datalogging give that a try if your not already using it.
884+3 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-26-2007, 06:34 PM #3
HowdyDuty
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 70
Car: '84 Chevy 1500
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH350
Classifieds Rating: (0)
I use tunerpro to tune with and winaldl to datalog. I tried datalogging with tunerpro but it won't talk to the ecm. I'm building a max232 cable and hopefully that'll resolve that issue.
I agree with you that I have a lean problem but I don't know what table or tables to adjust. I was under the impression that while in open loop the fuel delivery is dependant totally on the MAF tables. Are there other tables I should be adjusting?
-HD
HowdyDuty is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-26-2007, 08:28 PM #4
884+3
Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pa
Posts: 152
Car: 88 irocz
Engine: b2l 350
Transmission: corvette 4+3
Classifieds Rating: (0)
"Are there other tables I should be adjusting?"
Yes, like i said look for the open loop tables and monitor your coolant temps and adjust accordingly. Make sure your using the 6E xdf file mark included with TunerPro and you should be seeing improvement in no time.
884+3 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 11:19 PM #5
HowdyDuty
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 70
Car: '84 Chevy 1500
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH350
Classifieds Rating: (0)
The only tables I found pertaining to open loop in the 6E code is the "Open loop AFR % Change vs. LV8" and "Open loop AFR Ratio % Change vs. Coolant Temp" tables.
I added 20% across the board to the second table. I noticed no starting improvement and I actually suffer worse lean conditions in open loop with a hot engine. Did I go the wrong way with the numbers? I guess I don't understand exactly what these tables do and what they calculate and how it effects fuel delivery in open loop. Can anybody explain more what these tables do? I'm always nervous adjusting values in tables when I don't know what they do.
-HD
HowdyDuty is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 02:30 AM #6
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HowdyDuty View Post
I'm frustrated with it and am getting tired of having to hold my foot on the gas pedal until the engine warms up.
Never overlook the obvious, are you absolutely sure everything mechanically is right?.
Might double check you IAC/ min idle setting.
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 11:27 AM #7
HowdyDuty
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 70
Car: '84 Chevy 1500
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH350
Classifieds Rating: (0)
I will check the min idle air again but don't see how that would contribute to the lean open loop condition I'm having. I could see how that might have an effect on the engine not idling up on cold start, but not the lean condition.
HowdyDuty is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2007, 12:36 PM #8
Jon614z28
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CT
Posts: 36
Car: 1992 Z28 Aniv. Edition
Engine: 350 l98 LT1 Swap
Transmission: T5 WC
Axle/Gears: 3.27 Borg 9Bolt
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Injectors
Are your injectors new? I had the same problem, and i refused to blame it on my injectors, but it was all i had left to check, so i had them cleaned, as well as the throttle body, after that my cold starts were amazing, it would fire right up no problem at all, i did not have to keep it running with my foot on the petal until it ran by itsself. Maybe its worth a look?
Jon614z28 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2007, 12:36 PM #9
Jon614z28
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CT
Posts: 36
Car: 1992 Z28 Aniv. Edition
Engine: 350 l98 LT1 Swap
Transmission: T5 WC
Axle/Gears: 3.27 Borg 9Bolt
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Injectors
Are your injectors new? I had the same problem, and i refused to blame it on my injectors, but it was all i had left to check, so i had them cleaned, as well as the throttle body, after that my cold starts were amazing, it would fire right up no problem at all, i did not have to keep it running with my foot on the petal until it ran by itsself. Maybe its worth a look?
Jon614z28 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2007, 12:39 PM #10
Jon614z28
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CT
Posts: 36
Car: 1992 Z28 Aniv. Edition
Engine: 350 l98 LT1 Swap
Transmission: T5 WC
Axle/Gears: 3.27 Borg 9Bolt
Classifieds Rating: (0)
i had this same problem, i cleaned my injectors and throttle body and it was amazing how good it started and ran on open loop. Maybe not your problem but worth a shot? I always had to keep it running by holding my foot on the gas until it got into closed loop.
Jon614z28 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2007, 12:40 PM #11
Jon614z28
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CT
Posts: 36
Car: 1992 Z28 Aniv. Edition
Engine: 350 l98 LT1 Swap
Transmission: T5 WC
Axle/Gears: 3.27 Borg 9Bolt
Classifieds Rating: (0)
i had this same problem, i cleaned my injectors and throttle body and it was amazing how good it started and ran on open loop. Maybe not your problem but worth a shot? I always had to keep it running by holding my foot on the gas until it got into closed loop.
-----------------------------
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-27-2007, 11:31 PM #1
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
PnH port injectors?
Is there a decent junkyard source for these? I'm debating how to run a 4bbl TBI injection system on my Impala without matching the GDP ($$$). I want to run the EBL on a 7747 with a wiring harness scavenged from yet another junk P30 series 'tater chip truck. I found the part number for the bare Accel 4bbl TBI unit priced realisticly at $349 (instead of Holley 4bbl for $900).
My problem is the Accel TBI uses port style injectors. I found them on Summit for $90 a pop. Seems to me I could junkyard a set for less than $400...
__________________
'96 Bronco: 302, 5-spd, 4wd, 32" tires
'84 Impala: 350 with Dart heads 200cc IR 72cc CC, Ferrea valves, 9.8:1 compression zero clearanced, Comp 276HR cam, Stealth Ram, 30# FMS injectors, long tubes, 2.5" duals, boxed control arms holding a GM 8.5" G80 with 4.10's
I prove the above statement
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2007, 11:40 PM #2
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
Is there a decent junkyard source for these? I'm debating how to run a 4bbl TBI injection system on my Impala without matching the GDP ($$$). I want to run the EBL on a 7747 with a wiring harness scavenged from yet another junk P30 series 'tater chip truck. I found the part number for the bare Accel 4bbl TBI unit priced realisticly at $349 (instead of Holley 4bbl for $900).
My problem is the Accel TBI uses port style injectors. I found them on Summit for $90 a pop. Seems to me I could junkyard a set for less than $400...
WHY peak and hold? The EBL will drive standard PFI injectors from what RBbob told me at one point in time.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 02:02 AM #3
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
Is there a decent junkyard source for these? I'm debating how to run a 4bbl TBI injection system on my Impala without matching the GDP ($$$). I want to run the EBL on a 7747 with a wiring harness scavenged from yet another junk P30 series 'tater chip truck. I found the part number for the bare Accel 4bbl TBI unit priced realisticly at $349 (instead of Holley 4bbl for $900).
My problem is the Accel TBI uses port style injectors. I found them on Summit for $90 a pop. Seems to me I could junkyard a set for less than $400...
I bought a 4 BBL Holley TBI for a stroker project I did off of Ebay for less that $400. It was brand new and had 4 85 lb. injectors (old style). Granted, this was a few years ago but if you are diligent, you can find one fairly easily. If you can't find one, this place has a bunch of different P&H port injectors. Look in the performance injector page. http://www.injector.com/ . HTH
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 10:13 PM #4
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
WHY peak and hold? The EBL will drive standard PFI injectors from what RBbob told me at one point in time.
I checked his website. It says the EBL will drive up to 8 PnH port injectors. I assume it only does PnH. Maybe he or someone else on the design team will chime in.
I could be reading the website wrong tho...
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 10:50 PM #5
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
I checked his website. It says the EBL will drive up to 8 PnH port injectors. I assume it only does PnH. Maybe he or someone else on the design team will chime in.
I could be reading the website wrong tho...
RBob sent me this on 6-23-06.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBob
Chris,
As for the MPFI on the EBL, with saturated injectors the standard setup will work (hardware wise).
If you want to drive 8 PnH port injectors then the ECM needs to be upgraded. Let me know if you need to do that.
BobR.
I know for a fact that a stock TBI ecm will drive 4 peak and hold port style fuel injectors. Two parallel'd on each injector driver. The 1994-1995 Chevy S10 2.2 used peak and hold port style injectors (weird fuel rail though) with a TBI PCM.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 11:04 PM #6
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
I checked his website. It says the EBL will drive up to 8 PnH port injectors. I assume it only does PnH. Maybe he or someone else on the design team will chime in.
I could be reading the website wrong tho...
With the $75 EBL injector upgrade to drive 4 TBI injectors you can indeed drive 8 P&H port injectors. HTH
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2007, 11:14 PM #7
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
With the $75 EBL injector upgrade to drive 4 TBI injectors you can indeed drive 8 P&H port injectors. HTH
The stock EBL will drive 4 P&H port injectors.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 02:27 AM #8
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
TBI, Peak and Hold Injectors are 1.2 ohms.
Port, Peak and Hold Injectors are 2.4 ohms.
Saturated in either variety are 12-18 ohms.
Just a FWIW
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 11:37 AM #9
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Now I really have no idea what to do
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 01:10 PM #10
vernw
Senior Member
vernw's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas, TX area
Posts: 3,145
Car: 91 Formula WS6 (Black, T-Tops)
Engine: 383 MiniRam (529 HP, 514 TQ - DD2K)
Transmission: Built '97 T56, Pro 5.0, CF-DF
Axle/Gears: 4.10 posi Ford 9"
Classifieds Rating: (2)
So, if I'm reading this correctly - the EBL will drive 8 "standard" TPI injectors? I thought just the opposite was true...
vernw is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 05:45 PM #11
Fast355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 4,491
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernw View Post
So, if I'm reading this correctly - the EBL will drive 8 "standard" TPI injectors? I thought just the opposite was true...
It will drive 8 standard TPI injectors.
It will drive 6 as well.
The MPFI intake on my 3.1 using the EBL is a prime example.
Fast355 is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 07:02 PM #12
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
Now I really have no idea what to do
If a stock TBI will run 2 TBI injectors that would be the same electrical load, as 4 port type PnH (2.4 vs 1.2 ohms).
If you want to run more then 4 Port PnH you need additonal injector drivers.
If you want to 4 TBI PnH injectors you need additional drivers.
You can run as many as 8 saturated injectors without issue.
Learning Ohm's Law, would be advisible.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernw View Post
So, if I'm reading this correctly - the EBL will drive 8 "standard" TPI injectors? I thought just the opposite was true...
There is no *standard* TPI/ Port injector. There are saturated, or Peak/Holds. The most commonly used are saturated.
Using the proper terms is a good habit to get into.....
Last edited by Grumpy : 01-29-2007 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 07:54 PM #13
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
If a stock TBI will run 2 TBI injectors that would be the same electrical load, as 4 port type PnH (2.4 vs 1.2 ohms).
If you want to run more then 4 Port PnH you need additonal injector drivers.
If you want to 4 TBI PnH injectors you need additional drivers.
You can run as many as 8 saturated injectors without issue.
Learning Ohm's Law, would be advisible......
The last statement is not always true, at least from my testing. The LM1949 (which GM P&H drivers are, basically) datasheet states that the trip point from peak to hold current is 385 mV. When using a .1 Ohm current sense resistor as GM does, means that the peak current is 3.85 A. Using Ohms law R=E/I where E is voltage, I is current and R is resistance. At 13.8 V and 3.85 A, 13.8 V/3.85 I = 3.58 Ohms. Multiply 3.58 * 4 (for 4 injectors in parallel per driver) and you get 14.33 Ohms. This means that any set of 8 injectors measuring less than 14.33 Ohms each will trip the Peak and Hold driver into hold mode current of 1A total or 250mA per injector max. This is not always enough current to hold a saturated injector open, or so I have found, not to mention that with heat an injectors resistance will drop making the problem worse. HTH
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2007, 10:22 PM #14
vernw
Senior Member
vernw's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas, TX area
Posts: 3,145
Car: 91 Formula WS6 (Black, T-Tops)
Engine: 383 MiniRam (529 HP, 514 TQ - DD2K)
Transmission: Built '97 T56, Pro 5.0, CF-DF
Axle/Gears: 4.10 posi Ford 9"
Classifieds Rating: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
If a stock TBI will run 2 TBI injectors that would be the same electrical load, as 4 port type PnH (2.4 vs 1.2 ohms).
If you want to run more then 4 Port PnH you need additonal injector drivers.
If you want to 4 TBI PnH injectors you need additional drivers.
You can run as many as 8 saturated injectors without issue.
Learning Ohm's Law, would be advisible.
----------
There is no *standard* TPI/ Port injector. There are saturated, or Peak/Holds. The most commonly used are saturated.
Using the proper terms is a good habit to get into.....
I agree, Grumpy. That's why I asked the question - I don't know which injectors are PnP vs. saturated. For example - the SVO 30's I've been running in my SR, and plan to start out with in my AFr/MiniRam set up, aren't those the saturated type? Which means thye probably won't work with the EBL, even with the injector driver upgrade...
The reason I was asking is because I don't know. But I also admit to a bit of laziness - I should have done a search to see what type the SVO 30# injectors are. So I am at fault here, sorry.
vernw is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2007, 06:51 PM #15
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
The MPFI intake on my 3.1 using the EBL is a prime example.
LOL. Do any of your vehicles have untouched electronics?
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2007, 08:58 PM #16
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
The last statement is not always true, at least from my testing. The LM1949 (which GM P&H drivers are, basically) datasheet states that the trip point from peak to hold current is 385 mV. When using a .1 Ohm current sense resistor as GM does, means that the peak current is 3.85 A. Using Ohms law R=E/I where E is voltage, I is current and R is resistance. At 13.8 V and 3.85 A, 13.8 V/3.85 I = 3.58 Ohms. Multiply 3.58 * 4 (for 4 injectors in parallel per driver) and you get 14.33 Ohms. This means that any set of 8 injectors measuring less than 14.33 Ohms each will trip the Peak and Hold driver into hold mode current of 1A total or 250mA per injector max. This is not always enough current to hold a saturated injector open, or so I have found, not to mention that with heat an injectors resistance will drop making the problem worse. HTH
And without Ohm's Law you'd not have been able to figure that out!.
Thanks, for proving my point.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernw View Post
I agree, Grumpy. That's why I asked the question - I don't know which injectors are PnP vs. saturated.
Put an ohm meter on one, or just do some research.
ALL SATURATED ARE 12-18 OHMS.
If 2.4 ohms (since you're working with port) they're PnH.
Last edited by Grumpy : 01-30-2007 at 09:00 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2007, 09:39 PM #17
vernw
Senior Member
vernw's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas, TX area
Posts: 3,145
Car: 91 Formula WS6 (Black, T-Tops)
Engine: 383 MiniRam (529 HP, 514 TQ - DD2K)
Transmission: Built '97 T56, Pro 5.0, CF-DF
Axle/Gears: 4.10 posi Ford 9"
Classifieds Rating: (2)
Did the research, found out they saturated ar 12-18ohms, and I know for a fact mine are in that range. So the "default" TPI.multi-oint injectors are saturated, not PnH.
Thanks for the info and education (again) Grumpy!
vernw is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-30-2007, 11:30 PM #18
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
And without Ohm's Law you'd not have been able to figure that out!.
Thanks, for proving my point.....
Ohms law is the first thing taught in the EE corriculum in college and it is constantly reinforced throughout. It is the foundation for all things electronic.
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 01-31-2007, 08:49 PM #19
Grumpy
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernw View Post
Did the research, found out they saturated ar 12-18ohms, and I know for a fact mine are in that range. So the "default" TPI.multi-oint injectors are saturated, not PnH.
Thanks for the info and education (again) Grumpy!
Your welcome, but please let's stick to using the accepted terms, ie saturated.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
Ohms law is the first thing taught in the EE corriculum in college and it is constantly reinforced throughout. It is the foundation for all things electronic.
Yaaaa.....
But, I was addressing the folks here, and I'd venture a guess, that not too many guys have actually used it, which was my point. Getting it down, allows, IMO, for a much better understanding of parallel resistance figuring, which is the crux of this thread.
Last edited by Grumpy : 01-31-2007 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Grumpy is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2007, 01:40 PM #20
V8Astro Captain
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 600 yds out
Posts: 1,495
Car: Bee-Bowdy
Engine: blowd tree-fity
Transmission: sebin hunnerd
Axle/Gears: fo-tins
Classifieds Rating: (1)
I recently found this...
http://www.msdignition.com/2007/light.html
Check out the "Jammer" injectors at the bottom. The list them for use with saturated AND PnH type drivers. I don't see how that's possible.
??
V8Astro Captain is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2007, 09:25 PM #21
HaulnA$$
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 446
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Astro Captain View Post
I recently found this...
http://www.msdignition.com/2007/light.html
Check out the "Jammer" injectors at the bottom. The list them for use with saturated AND PnH type drivers. I don't see how that's possible.
??
They must be saturated injectors. If they were P&H MSD could not state that. P&H drivers, as explained earlier in this thread, can drive saturated injectors as long as the saturated injector(s) does (do) not draw enough current to "trip" the P&H driver into low current hold mode. Saturated injectors must maintain full current for the duration of the pulsewidth. Saturated drivers cannot drive P&H injectors since there is no low current hold mode and the high "peak" current draw of the low impedance injector for the full duration of the pulsewidth would either blow the driver or overheat the injectors. HTH
HaulnA$$ is offline vBGarage Page Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2007, 09:33 PM #22
junkcltr
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: garage
Posts: 2,596
Classifieds Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaulnA$$ View Post
They must be saturated injectors. If they were P&H MSD could not state that. P&H drivers, as explained earlier in this thread, can drive saturated injectors as long as the saturated injector(s) does (do) not draw enough current to "trip" the P&H driver into low current hold mode. Saturated injectors must maintain full current for the duration of the pulsewidth. Saturated drivers cannot drive P&H injectors since there is no low current hold mode and the high "peak" current draw of the low impedance injector for the full duration of the pulsewidth would either blow the driver or overheat the injectors. HTH
You are right on both accounts. Don't drive saturated injectors with a PnH driver. Don't drive PnH injectors with a saturated driver. Since the PnH driver is in the linear region of the FET with a large V_drop across it then it heats up more (the reason the V8 $58 guys use a FET that can handle a large temperature). Saturated is nice because the power across the driver is about .3V * total_inj_current or about 2.5 watts for 8 injectors.....not much heat there.
---------------------------------